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DO - you sound a lot like me - only you say it so much better. I wonder how the controllers are going to handle the turn-around in public opinion with regard to the gun control legislation issue ... I don't really think it is an actual turn-around - I just think the public opinion is finally rising to the top and being heard.
That's all ...
I had posted this on the last political blog just before it expired. I am re-posting so that all our conservative/libertarian friends have an opportunity to see it. It is about the State Bank of North Dakota. It is the only State Bank in the nation. The conservative folks in North Dakota love it. I think that some of you conservatives also may agree that it is a good idea. One catch; it is socialism. Let's discuss it. Here is the link; http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/why-socialism-doi...
How George Bush won the Iraq war. http://www.gregpalast.com/how-george-bush-won-the-war-in-iraq-really/
DO is there any chance that we can stop sniping at each other, and instead engage in real dialogue? We are on different paths, but those paths often intertwine, as we pursue our individual courses. We do share common ground.
If you can bring yourself to quit hurling insults at me when there are legitimate other options, I will try to do the same. Perhaps it won't work out, but I think we should try.
Corrupt politicians make the strangest of bed fellows. Dems, and Repubs once again snuggling in what they thought was a corporately provided bed.
Hopefully they instead will all share bunks in the jail house. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/02/17567841-six-new-york-lawmakers-arres...
Corporate based comity turns the concept of comity into corruption.
News are you not a social libertarian? I believe you err when you scoff, and announce libertarianism as bad, without even acknowleging that you yourself hold dear some libertarian principles. Would you not call that hypocrisy, or promoting disinformation, perhaps both?
So you do not maintain that you you hold no libertarian values?
You state News that you "feel" you have answered my question, that is hardly verifiable.
Below is a definition of libertarianism. I ask you specifically, do you believe in that statement. A yes, or no will verify whether or not you believe in some aspects of libertarianism.
Its adherents believe that private morality is not the state's affair, and that therefore activities such as drug use and prostitution that arguably harm no one but the participants should not be illegal."= Oxford (British)
Oh well, nuff o' that. ;)
So you are a social libertarian. It doesn't matter how you got there, you do share at least one libertarian value. :)
I agree with you News on the need for a strong central government, else (among other things) Jim Crow would still be riding roughshod across the South.
Good point DO. However despite the tardiness, and neglect of the federal government it is likely that Jim Crow, would have maintained its full strength in the South where it was socially embedded, much longer than it did, perhaps even today, barring central government strength, and action. In fact it was the argument that central government had not the power to change it that was largely responsible for the delay.
I am of course not saying that Jim Crow is dead. The chant of "states rights" still hinders progress on the issue.
What say you?
Am I the only one that thinks we just might have another alter ego at work here......
Plenty of ego. Not sure about the alter part.
G66, and Countryman LOL. I have wondered if some previously banished bashers have not reinvented, and resurrected themselves. I am not opposed to a second chance even if it is based on illegal entry. I reckon that is just one of those quirks of we liberals. ;)
Interesing stuff DO, I will mull it, and do my best to continue the discourse. Due to our differing perspectives at first blush I am leaning toward this; yes, central government inevitably becomes corrupt, but so do all levels of government.
It is the nature of human kind that is at fault. Thus we must more directly address the problem of all levels on all levels. It may be that it is a red herring to blame centralized federal government, or decentralized government. Pogo's observation applies here, "We have met the enemy... and he is us".
I will be looking at your interesting concepts from that perspective. What can we do to control ourselves? I am mindful that it is a point in favor of de-centralized government that we may more efficiently keep an eye on ourselves if we are in actual viewing distance of each other. Again, thanks for the provocative post. Weigh in now if you want to forward additional points for consideration to me as I ponder.
With respect I await your response.
Wow back at you ND. It is huge. So much to ponder, too little time to wander, is the curse on this old man. Any way I am revving up to digest this stuff, full well realizing that it will make me sick to my stomach. :)
Those of us who cite Norway, Denmark, and Sweden, and others as examples of successful socialist economies, and Social Democrat politics.
DO what successful examples of nations who utilize the economic policy, and political system that you advocate can you exhibit?
Say what you will about DO, he does stimulate activity on this blog. Heck half the fun is deducing where he is coming from, as we weed through the abundance of comments he makes.
We have no one else posting on these blogs these days with anything like an opposing view. DO would say we have run everyone off. I don't totally disagree with that statement, though I disagree with him as to the why of it.
Further most of the others with an opposing view have just been regurgitating Fox, and Rush. Frankly I could flip on the TV, or my radio, and shout back at Rush, and that crowd as they speak, and get as much satisfaction, and focused response as I have from most of the 'Ditto Heads' who post here.
We grouse about his lack of specifity, and direct response to our inquiries. What else is new? It goes with the territory. Rr3, Jason, those whose names I don't even remember at this moment all share that penchant. No exceptions.
So, DO stick with us, you are the best we have. I for one would lament your passing. :)
Oh yeh DO, what about those thriving nations that practice your economic, and political theories? Seriously if you can point me to one, past, or present, it would help me to understand what you support. So please, so to speak, draw me a picture, I'm not as sharp as some folks, and need that once in awhile to understand things.
When he is gone News who will you have to get down 'n' dirty with? Ain't gonna be me. ;)
Well, I reckon we will continue to have some good discussions among the regulars, even if we have to occasionally split hairs to facilitate pro, and con positions. :)
DO if you want to put a political label on me that is a pretty good basic fit that would be Progressive/Populist. One thing that is anethema to me, and all Prog/Props is the corporatocracy. I note that whatever you label yourself (if you do so at all) that you also despise the corporatocracy.
Have you considered that as your movement, and mine are relatively small fragments of politics as a whole, that for the sake of efficient progress we should not waste our time trying to convert others to our own beliefs, nor putting down the beliefs of others. Would we not be better served if we instead spent our time on getting the word out about the common enemy? They love it when they see their opponents quarreling among themselves.
88,000 found jobs last news 90 million American's are not working in the job force since Obama has taken office a vast majority has given up meanwhile claims of SSDI have tripled I think obama's policies are not working so well then again maybe Bush is still in office.
Something that went right along with the myth of the obese fat lady, usually described as African American (though they used the N word) who pulled up in her welfare Cadillac to the food pantry, and loaded the trunk with food provided by hard workin' Amurcans, was the BIG television. They went into the second part of the ridiculous tirade with a colorful description of Mamma and six to twelve worthless kids (the number varied according to degree of misplaced anger) laying around munching potato chips, swilling Coke, and beer by the liter, all on our dime.
It is amazing how folks pick up things from those they sneer at. Now most Americans sit around guzzling Coke, and gorging on potato chips. You can tell the prevalence by watching how many waddle into Walmart, plunk their overflowing derrieres on the seats of motorized shopping carts and troll the snack aisles.
We love our folk villains, always have. What is sad is that we used to have counter-balancing folk heroes. Those have been in short supply for a long time. As folks have felt the ever growing effect of corporate thievery, schadenfraude has permeated our culture, and misguided nastiness prevails across the land. America, America, where art thou now?
Schadenfreude, not schadenfraude, though I do kinda like that paricular misspelling. ;) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/schadenfreude
Yes I do know it's kind of, not kinda, I kinda like slang. Paricular, instead of particular was a typo.
My apologies to any members of the word police who have read my errors. I usually don't go to the trouble to flog myself, but I am feeling particularly benevolent today, and perhaps a little masochistic.
What a nut case that guy is ND. I suppose the next bill that pops out of his head will be that welfare recipients will lose their benefits unless they get a job.
"Taught to be gay"...come on DO you know better than that.
Your point is a valid one. A disabled child does still receive benefits.
Even gay ones!
Former members of Obama's team criticize expansion of drone program secrecy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/obama-drone-transparency_n_3036867.html...
"160.058. School age children of welfare recipients must attend public school, unless physically disabled, at least ninety percent of the time in order to receive benefits."
What of the mentally disabled? What of the psychologically disabled?
One liner proposals should be confined to comedians where the audience has a chance to perceive them from their own perspective.
When one liners are proposed as statutes they must be parsed through the court system, and become just another waste of time, and money.
It is in my opinion at best just another simplistic solution tossed out by a simple minded member of the legislature. If he is not dim, he is then just catering to the simple minded constituency known as the far right.
One other thing, in addition to comedy one liners are also the life blood of advertising campaigns. It is past time for legislators to quit using proposed legislation as ads for themselves.
Aaaargh....American workers are at the breaking point. Duh, it's about time.
Maybe we need a national strike, a la France? Shut this puppy down for a few days, and watch work conditions, and wages jump to the top of the priority list. Can we do it? Nah, folks are too darned scared to take their fate into their own hands, and will continue to grovel to the corporate masters. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/arggggh-american-workers-are-breaking-point-1C92...
Solidarity, the factor forgotten by American workers. Busted Unions, and shuttered factories litter our land, the landscape has become a landfill of lost opportunity.
I hear that Hillary is going to have a new book.
'WHAT DIFFERENCE DID I MAKE'.
Pretty ironic isn't it?
Seems that everywhere she has visited as SOS has fell into chaos and unrest. Of course I guess it may be no different then having to endure 5 years of failure and the purposeful distruction of the American economy. We are experiencing the cost of years of electing liberals and folks it is not pretty.
How come liberals always point good things that bad people have done i.e.Hitler ignoring the bad? Yet they are always quick to point out bad things good people have done i.e.Christians, Conservatives, Republicans, etc.
Maybe it makes them feel good? Maybe it makes them feel superior? I don't really know but we know intent is the main thing results don't matter. If liberals got results then some of these things they want to blame on someone else would go away. Then what would they do? It's easier to keep pretending to fix the same problem then to invent new ones.
You don't care much for unions do you r? They are the enemy right? After all who wants folks having a say about their work? Certainly not the management shills for the corporatocracy. Be afwaid r, be vewwy afwaid they are coming after your class next.
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Apr 9, 2013, at 2:40 PM
All under liberal leadership California, Detroit, Chicago, etc. they are starting to fall like dominoes.
How come liberals don't want to mention the success in Texas, South Dakota, Wisconsin, et.? Well I guess the sources they listen to never mention those.
They are coming r, you can hide, but you can't run because your thoughts were paralyzed during the Reagan years. Antideluvian arch conservatives won't even know what hit 'em.
No real wage increases for working folks in thirty years, they have been squeezed of every drop, now just who do you think will be the next group to get squeezed?
Texas is a joke, the thirty year decline holds there as well. You will of course not hear that from Rick Perry, Rush, or Fox News.
Here is something else for you to ignore. Texas rates thirty third in wages, right behind Missouri. South Dakota ranks 39th. What is likely the only state in the union with a moribund Democratic Party ranks forty fourth. Oklahoma has so few Democratic office holders that the Republicans have resorted to quarreling with themselves.
The thought occurs to me that ignore is behind ignorance in more places than the dictionary. ;)
Link regarding my last comment. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/2005-11-29-wage_x.htm
That last link was kinda old, here is newer one showing WI at 21st, TX at 25th, and SD at 28th. For the life of me I don't see what you found to brag about those states doing well.
Here is the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income
Don't neglect r to look at the bottom dwelling ten states on the wage list at the last link. All solidly 'conservative'. In ascending order from the bottom; MS, WV, AR, KY, AL, TN, LA, NM, SC, and OK.
This provoked the thought that it is fitting to call them red states, because their blood sucking 'conservative' masters have drained the life blood out of the unfortunate people of red states, where it pools, and reflects for all the world to see.
I also recall mentioning "Alex Jones" very early on in a comment to DO.
Having said that I share some positions with DO, and enjoy his comments. With r I can't think of a single one. On the other hand r doesn't neglect to answer questio...oh yes he does, my bad. ;)
Don't start that junk again News. I choose to see some good in most things, libertarianism is just one. I am a social libertarian, I think that you are also a social libertarian to some degree.
So knock off the baiting, it won't work for you with me these days.
By the way I have not once said that I support a libertarian economic system, in fact if you have paid any attention to what I have said over the years you know that I do not.
So which is it; do you ignore what others post, or do you just like to harass people? I am open to a third possibility if you feel that I have harshly misread your intent.
By the way there is the direct answer you asked for. Hmph, laissez faire, indeed! It is too close to anarchy for my tastes.
So what was your intent?
Answer the question Mate.
News I have a great deal of respect for Noam Chomsky, a libertarian socialist, I suppose you do not.
How DO ever thought that we were the same is probably the biggest mistake he has made since coming to these blogs. LOL
Having said all that I find a lot of your stuff informative, and well reasoned. I just don't see you as perfect as you do yourself. ;)
News I never said that I believed any American libertarian socialist tenants, that was an assumption on your part, and you started your all too frequent ripping, and scoffing. You were so eager for argument that even my cite of Noam Chomsky did not give you pause, nor clue to differentation. I stand by my words, and my cite of Chomsky's own words which you are yet to acknowlege. He said that he was a libertarian socialist. That is a fact.
Either you, or Eric flagged some of my remarks. That is O. K.
Frankly I am as disgusted by you as Smokin' Cheetah was, and am seriously considering the same response he chose.
The truth is this is not fun anymore, and that I attribute largely to you.
Awww come on news don't give in now this is getting good.
That's funny!! Getting better and better.
The plight of the low information voter. It getting better and better. BUT!
WHAT DOES IT MATTER, ANYWAY!
Well news looks like your well on your way to having this site all to yourself well done mate!
I see old okr may be experiencing the same global warming that we here in Missouri are today. NOT!
You mean it's possible to win a debate on an internet blog?
Does that then mean that it is also possible to win an argument with your wife?
Come on folks - y'all are cracking me up.
It's just a comment section on a rural newspaper website in Mid-Missouri. You act like it's The Washington freaking Post or The New York Times.
I humbly suggest you take a firm grip on your ego(s) and play nice.
You've already driven off some regular, thought-provoking and intelligent posters - don't lose more because of your arrogance, cattiness and/or hatefulness.
"Come on people now - smile on your brother - every body get together we gotta love one another right now."
By just posting just the link to the gay man kicked out of the hospital you are letting people assume he was kicked out for being gay when in fact he was arguing with the patient's brother in the room and the nurse didn't think it was right so she kicked them both out of the room apparently the man claiming the husband was continuing with his attitude and that was why he was arrested. If you read the article Research hospital was on of the first hospitals in KC to offer Benefits to same sex couples. This was basically a dispute over who had say so. The husband of the patient claim to have power of attorney but did not produce proof.
news your right everyone that has gone from here did so of their own free will with the exception of the few that have been removed by Eric.
It's sad to me that all of them that I can remember did so when they got tired of you news!
At this rate the Speak Out politics section will be the news across blog well done news I hope you like to read your own post's mate!
Just my opinion
Thank you News for the welcome back, but I don't think I will be posting on the political, nor religion blogs for a while at the least. The truth is that it is no longer fun for me.
I do apologize to you for placing blame on you. there are always many factors that frustrate a person, and sometimes it is the latest frustration that catches the blame. It could well be that you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have spent too much time on these blogs for a long while. I have said much, probably too much for the eyes, and minds of many readers. Rather than resume, and risking redundant posts, I am instead saying so long, it was fun. :)
P. S. I have a feeling that the P. and R. blogs may not last much longer. There is a new publisher in town, and he may be concerned about the content. A new broom sweeps clean?
Gonna miss you OKR -
You appear to be voice of reason that can accept that folks are different without having to beat up those with whom disagree.
Okla , don't let all this get to you! Hang in there.If not,good luck to you my friend!
Awwww I am really sad okr is not going to play no more. I will miss shining the light of truth on his posts.
I can guarantee with 100% accuracy that the explosions in Boston were the work of criminals.
Simple as that.
Regardless of whatever lame, ridiculous excuse that those responsible use to justify their actions, they are plain old criminals with no redeeming value what-so-ever.
I certainly hope they get treated accordingly.
Aaaah, finally, another opportunity to indulge in recreational grief. We now have another city transmogrified, no longer just Oklahoma City, and New York to visit as hallowed ground. Maybe not though, for no buildings are down in Boston.
Some bright soul should set up a national bus tour for the grayed Tea Party members, and others to travel about the country to genuflect (second definition), and indulge themselves with selective sorrow.
Out of tragedy, comedy inexorably appears. Mark Twain unfortunately does not know what he missed.
Well, I guess I can not stay away. I find what every one who posts here interesting.
DO is not far off in his statements when one considers long range views. The question remains whether, or not we are as far along as he believes. I have no doubt that we are at the least traveling a path toward what he sees as now.
News rages righteously as well.
NanaDot brings a unique wisdom, and a wealth of knowlege for our betterment.
On, and on I could go until I have remarked about each of you in glowing terms.
All those who offer perspectives here have something of value to say. We ignore any points of view at our personal peril.
Therefore I will continue from time to time to present perspectives. I will not argue with folks as to the accuracy of my perspectives, nor theirs. Instead I will absorb those of others, and consider them as I continue to develop my own opinion of the overall scheme of things.
Thanks to all of you for assisting me in my effort to become a wiser person. :)
His writings are a world treasure. I am in total accord with you, and AW on the point.
This is one of his best in my opinion. http://www.lone-star.net/mall/literature/warpray.htm
Boy the smoke barely cleared on the Boston bombing before the leftist media and liberals started politicizing this. It seems everthing that happens they always have the hope that it can further their agenda. They hope it is a white Tea Party bible thumping conservative so it will fit right into their playbook. If it turns out to be a liberal pro-life God hating gay loving Muslim then it will immediately go to the back page of the news. All the racists and bigots will immediately attach a label to this in the hope that it will further their agenda.
I think it was a terrorist plain and simple. We will eventually find out the truth of who was responsible and to me they will still be a terrorist. It doesn't matter what their race, religious or political affiliation is.
"liberal pro-life God hating gay loving Muslim"
As soon as you find one of those, let me know.
My understanding is that the vast majority of Muslim 'terrorists' are ultra-right fundamentalists who love Allah and favor state enforced morality laws. (Seems familiar, eh?)
Of course, I am sure there are some gay Muslims somewhere......most likely hiding in the closet. I don't think the "Koran-thumpers" support gay rights any more than the "Bible-thumpers."
Oh, yeah, and I don't care who set off those bombs in Boston, they are dirtbag criminals who don't deserve to be breathing our air, regardless of their political affiliations or belief in mythology.
If it turns out to be a fundamentalist fanatic, Christian or Muslim, then I say we help them meet their idol as quickly as possible.
At the following link is an extensive scientific study concerning child well being in America on a state by state basis. The bottom of the barrel? The geographic bottom of the country as is usual in most gauges of well being. Pay particular attention to pages 16, 17, and 18.
News the fact that the south, by which I mean the states at, or near the southern border of our country being backward in nearly everything, both currently and historically, is due to many factors including climate, and early social dynamics. I see their conservative political, and religious values as a manifestation of that heritage.
It may be that because of that heritage, including their failed insurrection, it has left them clinging to the remnants of the past, refusing to join the rest of the country in anything; up to, and including promoting the welfare of their own children. ;)
It is curious that the states on each end of the southern slice, Florida, and California are very different from the rest. It is almost as if they are parentheses holding the rest in their place.
Actually I was thinking that the South was at early stages more agrarian feudalistic that Classical Economic. As they had to get through an earlier stage of feudalism before even getting to where the rest of the modern world was during her early days, they have not yet been able to catch up. Whichever, or both, their economic model certainly was, and is an important factor in their continued lack of progress. What do I know though, you are the economist.
Where do the abundance of tenant farmers, and sharecroppers (white and black) fit in that scenario? Are they not similar to the feudalistic characteristic of manorial serfdom?
Ninety five percent of black farmers in the south in 1900 were sharecroppers generally with some tenant farmers in that mix.
Thank you for the information. :)
I am real surprised psc called the Boston incident an act of terrorism. Did he learn anything from Bengahzi? He said that the full force of justice would punish those responsible in both instances. So all we have in Bengahzi is unanswered questions and some white guy in jail because of some movie that nobody saw. Have we pursued who was responsible for it? Based on Bengahzi why should we believe anything psc tells us?
We see that the lame stream liberal media is still looking for some white Tea Party bible thumping conservative that is responsible for the Boston bombing. Liberalism at its finest.
When i first seen the Explosion at the finish line,it just didn't seem like it was a powerful Boom! It doesn't fit what a pro. "would waste his time making, considering the risk I still think it was some half wit wanna be? I don't care what they believe! Just a thought!
Good stuff DO. We catch Austin performers here in OKC at the Blue Door, which is informally called the Austin Annex.
Well said SD
Something several of you may find interesting. We talk, but here is an opportunity to do more. It may at least make you feel better because there are folks such as these who are working to restore democracy to our nation, and to take down corporate personhood.
I think i can go along with being a Socialist! Only in my case i would add Extreme Socialist!
As much as you want to blame the recent events on right wing radical I will punt out that Kevin Curtis the person suspected of sending the Ricin is a liberal who happens to be a loose nut seems common with liberals. I might also point out the fertilizer plant had a fire which caused the explosion we don't know what the cause of the fire was.. And as far as the Boston marathon If they would of outlawed bombs this wouldn't have had happen.. Wait they are all ready out law and btw we don't know what these crazies are they could be of middle east origins or right wing zealouts or left wing loose nuts zealouts.
Jason I read that Curtis was an Elvis impersonator, but had not seen anything saying he was a liberal. Where did you find that?
It seems incongruous to me that a Mississippi Elvis impersonator would be a liberal, could be I reckon, but not likely.
I'm still searching regarding your point Jason. It would be nice if you would provide a link when you make a declaritive statement. I did see on MSNBC on line that the the man is bi-polar, has a long history of mental illness, has been off his meds. His family also says that they have been trying to get him help for a long time, but none is available. That is an all too familiar story.
Question: At what point does a person cease being liberal, or conservative, and instead severely mentally ill to the point that the individual's actions are not reflective of the tenants of those on either side of the political spectrum?
Typo alert: declarative, not declaritive.
Evenin' ND. :)
Thanks for the additional information on that poor deranged soul Curtis. It appears his life has been hell for a good long while. Ironically he finally may get the help he needs. It is too bad that ill folks have to make such horrendous cries for help before they get it.
I think I may amble on over to Fox News to see if Jason picked up the tidbit there about Curtis being a liberal. Of course he may have gotten it over the back fence from a like minded neighbor. ;)
Jason feel free to step in anytime to clear up the mystery you left us with. :)
Well I reckon Jason may have just made it up about Kevin Curtis being a liberal, or did get it talkin' over his back fence with a neighbor. Nuthin' on Fox. Maybe there wasn't a link provided because none existed.
Well I've wallered this un a nuff. the only remaining question is will Jason stay in the hole we made bigger for him, or will he crawl out of it, and say something.
HALOOO? HALOOO? You down there? ;)
Sadly you are right on both points ND. :(
Good to hear from our mutual friend huh? :)
Here is a link to his facebook profile you liveral crazy elites https://www.facebook.com/elvisguy4u?fref=ts
Turns out the bombers are brothers from Chechnya and wait get this they are Islamic all and isn't a fact that a lot of young men from Chechnya go and join the jihad in Afghanistan and don't they hate Russians? Oh my **** the luck you liberals can't blame this on a WASP. And by the way Paul Curtis the person that send the Ricin he was a democrat activist again you all are so general with christians and your hatred is show by how you assume things but if you break assume down you will get what happen when you assume. Think about that and look at the word assume.
Just my two cents -
But Jason is right about one thing - some folks are way too casual about throwing Christians under the bus anytime anything that could be considered "terrorism" happens here at home. If any of us would have come on here and shouted (figuratively) "It was Islamic Fanatics" when we heard about the Boston bombings - don't you know some folks would have jumped in with his ears back and ready to cast aspersions on all Christians, Conservatives, Gun Rights advocates, and Most White Males.
Again - just my opinion.
I think that knife cuts both ways.
Another knife also cuts both ways GB. A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Fundamentalists have a lot of flabbergasting ways; a God featuring fear, and retribution, and many with a belief that God literally talks to them, by golly if God says do it, they gonna do it!
That is just a little bit scary.
LOL Jason's source is Facebook, that virtual back yard fence that one can lean on and gossip to, and with a world of neighbors. It looks like I was on the money when I considered that he may have gotten his information from across his backyard fence. ROTFLMAO!
What I think DO is that a lot of stuff is brushed aside by law enforcement in their understandable rush to button things up. It is human nature, "get er done".
There are many remaining questions regarding the bombing in OKC. Were there other co-conspirators? Perhaps. Was Timothy McVeigh the primary perpetrator? Absolutely. Was Terry Nichols his primary co-conspirator? Probably.
McVeigh, and Nichols were seen in many places together. Others were not seen, and identified who were in their company. I am aware of the guy seen allegedly here in OKC, in fact the drawing looked a lot like a guy I knew, and I said hmmm, but no way. As you can imagine I closely followed things as they progressed.
Sometimes confusion masks conspiracy, sometimes not; instead it simply provokes cause to wonder. Which is it in this case? I honestly do not know. I do know that humans are fallible, and that some times mistakes are made. I think it more likely the latter case in this instance. Either way is an unindicted co-conspirator out there somewhere? There very well may be.
Every one is entitled to their opinion DO. I wasn't counting on that ticket. :)
I did read your link. I did not watch the videos. This is going to sound nuts, but I seldom watch videos. Thus I seldom comment when they are central to a current thread, or post, on these blogs.
"In fact, right now there are 21 various hate groups operating in Missouri right now, and that is just Missouri."
Problem is - the link he gave was for the SPLC ... Just as radical on the left as others are on the right. Gotta have a better source than that, news, or you'll lose your cred. In fact - I can't believe you're using them as a source. I expected better from you.
I generally agree with you, but you made a few mistakes on your recent postings about Zimmer and the old building on Arrow.
Maybe you didn't get all of the facts until later.
Anyway, the city spent 20k for Zimmer (too much, I agree, but not 100k).
Also, there are legal issues with the building on Arrow Street, so that hinders things short term, anyway.
You might have a look at the city's budget and let everyone know where the money will come from. I agree, Slater does a great job, but even so, they still have a lot of buildings to tear down.
Keep up the good work, I am not knocking you, just pointing out that not everything is totally simple and that there may be a few things you are yet not aware of.
This is straight-out Treason that these two instigated, (BUSH^ CHENEY)! And we as Citizens are just as guilty as they are, for not making it a priority to see that they are indited! The lives our brave Men & Women gave their lives for these Traitors! This was so unnecessary,its unimaginable! These People have a debt too pay! I've been saying this since all this started!! What i would say to the Young people of this Country,(DO NOT GO TOO THEIR WARS) Unless these People are tried for their Crimes, there is NO Honor in this Country? Our Honor was taken also, with these fools!
newacross wrote - "Fortunately, there is no truth to your statement."
And so - The Great and Powerful newsacross has set forth another declaration for us to either agree with or "be wrong."
Sad state of affairs. No matter so many are leaving the "fold."
Soon - he'll be shadow boxing ... I wonder who'll win that fight?
There are huge liability issues with the party walls as Don Stouffer summed up.
There is no way the city will get out without breaking the budget from all accounts.
News you have been around for a long while. Didn't you originally post as "News Across the (something) Empire?
I think you originally posted as news across the neocon empire. That was it, was it not?
News:"I was here long before any of you. Long before you wrote a single word and probably before you even knew there was a Speak Out -- I was here.
I have seen 'em come and I have seen 'em go -- and that was true years before you ever decided to make your first comment in this forum.
Long before OKR, I was here.
Long before ND, I was here.
long before any of the current commenters, including you, I was here."
News that bit of braggadoccio definitely does not pass the baloney test. :)
News you either missed or are eluding my point. What you said was baloney. There are several who still post here, some more frequently than others that were posting well before you did.
WTF, me, Gal66, Jo, and Kathy Fairchild among them.
NanaDot and Smokin' Cheetah were also posting before you.
What you said is not true. Can you not even admit that? Good Grief
By the way what I posted is not about personalities (nice brush off try) its about the facts mate. Surely you who calls out others at every opportunity when they are not being factual can eat a little crow when you are not factual. Then maybe you really can't which is more telling. LOL
There is no maybe about it News you are wrong. There is not a fact in your statement that I quoted, it is pure construction on your part.
By the way if you still think that you were posting on these blogs before me, then you likely still think that you were posting before all those others whose names I mentioned. After all most of them did begin posting after me. That is a whole lot of wrong think.
If you want to clear your mind of misconception all you have to do is go back to the link to past Speak Outs, scroll down, then click on the very first one. Then scroll down to the very beginning, you will see WTFs name the very first day it started, my name will pop up soon after, and all the others I mentioned as you scroll back to the top; not yours however, not for months, and months.
Are you capable of even one time saying, I was wrong without qualification, without adding I still think as I did, or some sort of obfuscation? Can you say these words 'I was wrong what I stated was not facts'? That is very hard to do for some people, it does require some sense of innate humility.
Actually, I was here first.
I printed in invisible keyboard and I dare any of you to prove me wrong!
Everyone is getting too serious about these little things! Research what the debate is about,and be satisfy with it, and move on! That's the way our great leaders do it, slick Language, and Smoke and Mirrors! We don't have any input in any of their subject matters! Lets not lose our frindship over these debates! I have enough hate for these great leaders we have in Washington. Lets all use our Common sense too guide us too a better day,its the only way with these slick con-men!What ever they suggest,you can bet its just the opposite! Plain old common sense!
Jo I continued the exchange with News as an experiment, to prove that false perceptions are the fodder that fuels this blog. In nearly every dialogue that occurs here only one of two points of view is essentially true. Yet each discussion runs on, and on, with the participants each finally leaving it, clinging to their belief more firmly than they did when discussion began.
Rarely is there an effort made to truly consider the opposing point of view. Rarely can any one of us pause, and research the opposing point. Instead we spend our entire effort collecting more support for our preconception. When is the last time you read anyone's comment as a discussion wound down that said, "I see your point, and you know what, I agree"?
What we have warped this forum into is not an opportunity for discussion, but for argument with the universal intent to win, instead of learn.
News made an extended boast that he was here before any of us, and would still be here when we were gone. I knew that was a patently false boast. I first responded with a gentle nudge intended to call attention to his error. I stated didn't you first post as News Across The NeoCon Empire? I wanted to see if it crossed his mind as to how I knew his original screen name, when he perceived that I was not present during the short time he used it. That obviously did not dawn on him, for he was too busily defending his challenged position to even for a moment broaden his perspective. Throughout the discussion he discounted evey point I made. As the points piled up he finally acknowleged that I may be right, but that he still felt he was right. That is a problem; we can not bring ourselves to let go of our emotional bias enough to give honest consideration to an opposing point of view. It is not just rr3 who holds to his beliefs in the face of overwhelming rational evidence to the contrary; it is also News Across who does so, and then has the audacity to belittle rr3 for the behavior that they share. Most of us do that, not just News Across, and rr3.
This disagreement over a simple matter was an opportunity to discover, and demonstrate what we have become in a simple way without it getting bogged down within the more complex topics that are the usual case of disagreement. It is sort of like using lab rats, instead of humans to more easily get to the essence of an essential.
Until we can all get over utilizing this blog as an opportunity for a macho beat down of our opponent, and can start approaching it as an opportunity to share ideas, and learn this blog will continue to decline until it is nothing. It is as if we will all be standing around the dance hall parking lot beat up, and sore after the battle royal, each wondering why in the hell did I do that? ;)
"How an Excel error fueled panic over the federal debt." the-spreadsheet-scandal-kills-the-last-argument-for-obamas-social-security-cut http://blog.ourfuture.org/20130418/the-spreadsheet-scandal-kills-the-last-argume...
Whatever News, stay in your special little world of denial. Every day, and every say on these blogs is an experiment in communication as well as an experience.
Unless you change your ways I have nothing else to say to you.
I could not have said it near as well OKR!
I also posted some before there there was a speak out section when it was in the comment section.
I do not even remember my first user name in the speak out section my computer died and I lost a lot of information and changed isp's about the same time so I did not even have access to my old email address so I could get my name back.
Been Gal66 for a long time.
For a long time everyone thought I was a female because of my user name and I did nothing to change the thinking :) then someone asked what some of our user names ment so I fessed up.
OKR I went back to that first speakout section and did a little reading, we all sure had some great times back then.
Wondeer what happened to all those posters?
$9.00 a month knocked a few out.
G66 it was fun. I thought Old Owl made cogent comments back then. I wish he/she would post more frequently. I think OldOwl does make rare appearances more recent than those days.
Do you remember years ago around 2003-04 when a few of us squatted in what was called a "Guest Book"? We discussed politics, and the new wars. There was a fellow who called himself Al, a Bill that went back and forth with me, and I believe was the guy who later morphed into Raytown Bill when Speakout started; a Dan, and maybe a Joe, among others. Were you one of those guys?
I remember that the folks who used it for back fence gossip with their out of town friends griped about us a lot even though they were also using it for an unintended purpose.
Oh yea G66, I forgot to say that way back when we were posting on the MDN guest book as I recall I used the name "Old Timer", that is certainly more apt today than it was back then. Hell, I was in my early sixties, which of course I considered to be the new forties. ;)
"I posted there under my real name mate. Yeah I remember that too."
Gee News I wish you would have joined our nascent political discussion back then. I could have used an ally as I was the only one posting from the left. It was mostly Bill on the right, and me, going back, and forth with the remainder conservative to centrists chipping in once in a while. A guy named "Al" seemed a pretty good sort, and was relatively moderate, but seemed a political novice. :)
It was fun.
OKR I am not one of those you listed but I did post back then but not alot and it was under my real name.
OldOwl is still around some but he sticks for the most part to local subjects.
Wonder what ever happen to Philemon?
Philemon where are you?
Philemon was another whose posts I enjoyed G66, there were others.
Maybe we should promote a Speak Out reunion. It would be interesting to hear what folks are up to, left, right, and the middle as well as the politically indifferent.
How about it folks? Why did you leave? What is currently important to you? What topics would you like to see posted more frequently?
I don't mean to go all proactive on you Gal66, but I am going to post this on the primary Speak Out. ;)
Wasn't there a blogger named John Q who sounded an awful lot like newsacross some years back? And whatever happened to Zeke? ... By the way - just because the current names may not be the same - that doesn't mean some haven't been here for quite some time ... news and OKR are both good examples of that.
I know gb that John Q and News are separate entities. John Q. was a Marshall resident, and had his own blog. Also they differed by degree in their political philosophies. John Q. in my opinion was more a center left guy, not at all radical as are News, and I.
I think John Q. is now a semi-permanent resident of S. E. Missouri, a work thing. He is also a practicing Christian, a good one I must add.
Larry Maxwell is John Q.'s real name gb. There is a short biography with his blog if you are interested. You can get to his commentaries by going to the front page online search engine, putting John Q. in, and clicking on blogs. It will give you all of them. He hasn't posted us since last fall. They were often a hot bed of comments.
For myself I am not much interested in who folks are in their daily lives that post on these blogs. My take is that it is none of my business, their comments are genuine, and might be less so if everyone knew their names as the theme to "Cheers" goes. This ain't "Cheers", though sometimes it does get about as ridiculous as that old comedy set in a tavern.
I think it shows a lack of class to snoop around trying to find out which Marshall folks are saying what, and trying to determine if poster Billy Bob isn't really that nasty lady who gossips all the time.
I'll close this post in the manner that John Q. used to close his commentary. What do you think?
Y'all are waxxing nostalgic over "the good old days on the MND blogs." That, right there, is too funny. We should all long for a return to the Bush era.
"Yep, Martha, them was the good times. We had an unintentional comdeian in the White House after he was appointed by the Secretary of State of Florida. Darth Vader was vice-president, and we could afford to fight two wars (well, three if you count that 40 year, ever present, 'War on Drugs') at the same time. Heck, we could fight wars with everybody on the planet at the same time because we were tough guys! We loved us some of that 'Shock and Awe'."
"The Good Lord smiled on us back then because we were putting women and minorities back in their place. The big oil companies were writing all our laws and regulations because that's what Jesus would do, and that fine example of democratic lawmaking, The Patriot Act, was taking away those pesky freedoms that them wig wearing, wooden toothed, old guys wasted all that time on."
Ahhhhh, yes............the good old days when things were as they should be, the rich got filthy and the poor got forgotten.
The middle, well, they were all standing around wondering what the heck was happening while working on saying the right things at work, and in the back yard, to fit into the new Rush Limbaugh, NRA, Koch Industries defined world.
America at it's finest at the turn of a millenium. Seven years of that and we managed to turn 10 years of economic expansion into another depression. I miss the good old days too, when the cons were in charge, or should I say the idiots were in charge of the asylum.
Yep - the asylum - you can say that over and over again. Doesn't matter who's in charge - it's a mad house.
And it's good to see that some folks - no matter who they are bashing or what ideology they happen to be trashing - always feel the need to include Christians. I kinda wish we could all replace the word "Christian" with terms like "organized religion" or "the established church" or "right wing fundamentalist congregationalists" or some more appropriate and descriptive term.
There is a difference.
But I guess I'll just keep wishin'.
Yep, Bentle Ben, the idiots are in charge of half the asylum these days, and the morons are in charge of the other half.
Sorry if you took offense to my wisecracks, but I didn't reference Christians, just Jesus. A weak attempt to poke fun at the "WWJD" craze around the early years of the millenium.
I have asked myself several times, in reference to conservative policies and practices, "What would Jesus do?" in that same situation, and I find that it rarely would be whatever is being done by the neo-con politicians.
I am not a religous man myself, but does anyone really think that Jesus would be all for cuts in health care and support for the poor so that the rich can get richer, because for Christ's sake, we can't be raising taxes on rich folks even though they are getting fatter by the minute?
Well - since you asked ...
I don't think health care and welfare and the lot should be in the public sphere at all. If the churches, organized religion - whatever you want to call it - really cared about "What Jesus Would Do" there would be no need for welfare, public health, etc. Seems we've missed our true calling somewhere along the line. Furthermore, if we really understood what Jesus would do, there wouldn't be any multi-million (or should that be "billion"?) dollar ministries, churches, denominations, etc. And people would be getting taken care of. Plain and simple.
Of course - this is just my humble opinion. For what it's worth.
GB: "I don't think health care and welfare and the lot should be in the public sphere at all. If the churches, organized religion - whatever you want to call it.."
I like where your head is; you think we should all help each other, not the government, and that religious institutions could do a lot more. We all should help our brother, and that sentiment is altruistic, and valid. Religious institutions cannot or will not be able to handle the load of people who need real assistance. Even if they were not waning, they like the government, have too much overhead in sustaining their brick and mortar, let along paying the preacher and in many cases, extravagant art work and architecture. Religious institutions are a small (and growing) smaller subset of the public sphere. It is ALL of us that must help, not just those donating to the church, United Way, or other charities. For it to work, we must make it a collective decision that everyone must help that can. The states certainly can help, but there is a lot of difference between states attitudes as well as financial wellbeing of each state. The only logical place for this to work is in the federal government. However, the obvious problem there is that the bigger anything gets, the more burdened down it becomes just maintaining its own weight (overhead). The answer is that all solutions should be on the table, individuals, community and religious organizations, counties, states, and the federal government. In fact, they all are involved with welfare, as they should be. The only solution is that each one must continually try to improve in efficiency, and I feel the federal government must take the leading role.
An interesting interview with Noam Chomsky. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/15917-noam-chomsky-smoke-and-mirrors-or-civil-...
If the Corporate/Fascist juggernaught continues the take over of our country until it is complete, history will record Obama a hero. If we the people defeat that Corporatocracy, history will record Obama a villain.
That thought was provoked by my appreciation of the interview of Noam Chomsky that was linked in my last post.
The thought now occurs to that I should refer to our current president from this point on as Bushama. We are now into a fourth term of Presidents who are captive tools of the military-industrial complex. The argument is strong that they have had a large degree of control since 1981, and some control going back to the end of Eisenhower's administration.
Folks we are in deeper trouble than most folks think, and a lot of folks think we are in trouble. Even more people have an almost instinctive feeling that we are in trouble, but are clueless as to why, thus their anger is expressed, and targeted toward a false target, or a peripheral perpetrator. The Corporatocracy fuels the fires of that misunderstanding using citizen's voices as a screen hiding the truth.
I am not going to debate the merit this opinion that I hold. Expressions by others countering the position, along with my statement can be weighed by the readers of this blog.
I am not discounting the many examples of plutocratic control since the founding of our country, I am just focusing on the present.
Grammar alert; "The thought now occurs to that I should refer to our current president..." should have said, The thought now occurs to me that I should refer to our current president...
OKR: "If the Corporate/Fascist juggernaught continues the take over of our country until it is complete, history will record Obama a hero."
If you think capitalism with oversight is good, and I do, then Obama and the Dems are not the problem. Bush and current GOP trend strongly to giving everything to the rich and powerful, and with very little oversight. That is what can take our country down. That is why the pendulum needs to swing back and forth, to get back on track when heading in the wrong direction, and that is what has made our democracy work, at least for 300+ years so far. If you just hate big government, then perhaps you are leaning strong toward libertarianism, which if allowed to be in control would push human rights and justice backward. I happen to like having the strongest military in the world, especially when you see a resurgence of insane regimes like Iran and North Korea. I like being able to say as a country "bring it on mo-fo", don't you? I dislike bullying a great deal, which means we need to handle our strength with great thought (and don't say what I'm thinking :-). I also like having interstate highways, electric grids, energy independence, sufficient police, fire, and emergency personnel, and investment in our future technologies, not to mention a helping hand for those in need. All of this takes a great deal of balance, and continual adjustment where areas become either unwieldy or need tweaking. A strong federal government is needed to achieve all of this, and so far our government has struggled to maintain the balance needed to continually improve across all those areas, at times going backward. Libertarians want to be left alone, that is until their little fortress of solitude is threatened by foreign marauders, fire, plague, etc. Meanwhile all those around them could go to hell as far as they are concerned as long as it doesn't affect them.
He's a sharp guy News. I thought you would enjoy his comments as much as did I. :)
Our economy is so entangled in military production that we can't stop making war, and its products.
The army says no thanks to more tanks. Congress say yes to tanks, or the economy tanks. They ought to change the name of the Abrams tank to the Catch 22 tank. Tank you very much. ;)
When our society as we know it comes tumbling down will we seek, and find a Roosevelt, or a Hitler?
There are so many folks that are looking for the seven reassurances listed at the link, that it is scary. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurence-rees/7-secrets-of-hitlers-charisma_b_3104...
I appreciate your comments News. Keep 'em coming. :)
When you live in the pass you no longer have a future who cares what happen in the election of 2000 the lesson there is that the law is the law and get over it. Ok next for all you liberals out there sorry a whiter extremist right winger was not responsible for the bomb so sorry for that. Better luck next time.
May I ask Jason, how does your last comment further conversation, and dialogue on this blog?
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
Yep, who cares what happened in the past. Good one. I got a pretty good chuckle out of that.
Following that logic, then education must be a bad thing because basically it is teaching lessons also learned from past mistakes, discoveries, and failures or triumphs throughout history.
But that's right, let's not try and remember past mistakes and learn anything from them for fear that "you no longer have a future."
And, of course, "who cares what happen in the election of 2000," except for those who wish to not repeat past mistakes. Well, them and those pesky historians who keep reminding us of our past mistakes that apparently good conservatives would sooner forget about.
If that's the case...why read the Bible?
All of that happened in the past, didn't it?
Famous research that "proved" high national debt causes slower economic growth is flawed. A second flaw has been found. It shoots down a theory often cited by conservatives. They will of course continue to cite Reinhart-Rogoff due to their propensity of never letting the truth get in the way of what they believe. ;) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/another-flaw-reinhart-rogoff_n_3185712....
Speaking of economics....
While I am in no way to be considered a religous man, I do like what I read about this guy.
Atta boy, Francis, poke them "Running Dogs of Wall Street" in the eye again. Many deserve it.
Wait....is this topic religion or politics? I couldn't find an economics blog.
Oh, and how will all those right wing Catholics digest this message? We can't possibly regulate capitalism or redistribute wealth, in an attempt to battle "a self-centred mindset bent on profit at any cost," eh righties, even if the pope thinks it might be a good idea?
I'm thinking cm that they will ignore the message as they do other proclamations of those to whom they profess fealty, or those whose profundity they say they admire, or even those they claim to worship. Why should they listen to the Pope when they will not listen to the message of Thomas Aquinas regarding war, nor the central message of Jesus Christ?
A slippery lot are they. The irony is that they fool only themselves, and become the butt of jokes, and are known as fools by rational folk. LOL
Hey News! I thought you had gone walkabout. ;)
Yea I have read quite a lot about it News, it is an interesting custom.
What shocks me is how you all don't take Benghazi seriously like the 4 americans who died there was something to laugh at tells me that the left has no value in life. The left have no morals especially when it comes to killing live babies and the killing of 4 americans in Libya.. The freakin government had warnings about this months ahead of time the British left after they were attacked what is worse they could of tried something to say at least 2 of these 2 men but they didn't we need to know why.
Off subject to help bring our debt down we should eliminate entitlements for anybody that can work save them for the seniors and disabled people. If you can work then you have the ability to learn give them an opportunity to educate themselves into a better career.
Jason, I don't think it's fair to say that the left has no value of life or morals. I'm on the left and I care a lot about the thousands of people who die from lack of health insurance. I care about the thousands of cases of asthma, cancer and other serious diseases that result from the toxics we allow to be put into our air and water. I care about the hundreds of thousands of people who have died in wars we shouldn't have fought (I'm talking mainly Iraq and Viet Nam here). I care about the innocent civilians around the world who are being killed in drone strikes and passed off as collateral damage.
Saying that people who don't agree with you are simply evil doesn't make you right. It just makes it really hard for us to talk about what we should be doing as a nation - instead of fight with each other.
I posted the following the day after the 2010 Congressional election.
"I think that the only difference the Tea Party will make is to provide us with occasional comic relief.
It remains Congress LLC. Emphasis on the LLC, (Limited Liability Corporation). A W.O.S. (wholly owned subsidiary) of international corporations. The legal department of this wholly owned subsidiary is the Supreme Court of the United States. They answer to the international board of directors which directs funding of the W.O.S.
I pledge allegiance to the swag of the W.O.S.of America, and to the schemes by which it stands.
One aberration, under ground, with misery and injustice for all...but a few."
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 3, 2010, at 1:24 AM
I reckon it is just going to go on, and on. I don't know if the American people will ever throw off their slave collars. We are brainwashed by an ever more creative media that Medusa like turns our brains to stone when we are exposed to it.
Thanks News. I don't reckon much is gonna get better for folks in my life time. I believe it is gonna be tough on the grand kids.
Looking hard for silver linings I hope that we will learn to, be forced perhaps, to live more simply.
I have lived my life relatively simply, and consider that an accomplishment.
I have a lot of problems with Obama - increased deportation, increased prosecution of whistleblowers, proposing the chained CPI for Social Security - I could go on - but there's a rationale for his desire to go forward instead of back.
If you want to go back & talk about blame for Benghazi, then let's talk about lots of blame - Bush for taking us to war in Iraq on totally fraudulent grounds, HSBC for laundering money for drug cartels & terrorists (I don't want to let that one go - you have a great advocate for jailing financial fraudsters in MO, at UMKC - William K. Black, Assoc. Prof of Econ. & Law, who put many in jail after the Savings & Loan crisis of the '80's. Go to anywhere he speaks, he's fabulous!), the lack of inspection at the fertilizer plant in West, Texas, the reduced prosecutions of tax fraud because the Congress has cut IRS funding by 17% before the sequester, the fact that people in the Bronx go to jail because cops tell them to empty their pockets, revealing a small amount of marijuana (which isn't illegal when it's in their pockets - it's only illegal if it's on public display, which it wouldn't have been if they hadn't complied with the cop's request to empty their pockets).
There are a lot of illegal things that have happened. I'd love to prosecute them all, but I don't want to start with Benghazi. I'd rather start with the illegitimate throwing of close to a hundred thousand voters off the rolls in Florida in 2000. If that hadn't happened, who knows if we'd even gotten to Benghazi.
How far back do you want to go?
Why is the Democrats in Congress starting to distance themselves from Susan Rice and Clinton???Whats more why did Clinton not deploy the State Department's counter terrorism unit? It was all because of the re election bid at the time it did not fit Obama's claim that Al Queada was all but dead so basically 4 americans lost their lives for politics.
Legalizing Illegal Immigrants is going to be costly by some estimations it could cost us 63 trillion dollars. Now with that being said legal immigration needs to be reformed especially student visas. We should remove the cap of white immigrants we need to only except immigrants that will enrich our nation and not take away from our country. That includes any race that can enrich our lives I don't care if they are hispanic black or white as long as they can enrich our country with their knowledge or talents.
Attack, attack, attack. Is that all you know how to do DO?
I think I'll suggest to Eric that he establish a News Across 'n' DO blog so you guys can just hammer each other every day.
I don't think I have ever heard either of you admit you are wrong about even the slightest thing.
It is laughable DO that you have tried to establish that News, and I are peas in a pod. The sad truth is that you, and he are more alike than any other two that I can think of on these blogs. I am LOL right now because the both of you will consider that last sentence to contain the supreme insult. Ah irony.
The "fun" for you guys is everyone else's turn off. I'm done.
Wow News - where are you? That's the place to be! Thanks for the nice welcome.
Sydney sounds wonderful - and looks wonderful. Thanks for the pix. And your health care system sounds unbelievably great. I'm in deep problems right now because my daughter lost her insurance by dropping some courses in college - which I didn't realize until it was too late - and needing an emergency appendectomy. I'm swimming in Dr. bills at the moment. The idea that she could have had the absolutely necessary operation as a part of national health care sounds like heaven. I don't know why people aren't demanding it here. I can't even figure out why business isn't solidly behind it. Why would an American company want to compete in the world market with companies in other countries who don't have to fund health care for anybody - it's done through taxes? I don't get it.
Anyway, I also grew up in Marshall, but don't live there now. I wanted to come to this chat to see what people are thinking in Mid-MO right now. I'm really glad that you're bringing information from around the world, and a window into what people think out there, but I hope we expatriates aren't the only voices in the conversation.
Did anybody here go hear Rep. Cleaver the other night? If so, what did he say about programs to help farmers? The article in the paper said he had them, but didn't say what they were.
How many low information voters think that they were lied to about Bengahzi now!
Some gun questions for the low information voter.
How many think that any of the newly proposed gun laws would prevent the use of any kind of gun in a crime?
How come all gun laws restrict the legal use and possession of them?
How many believe that gun crimes have increased?
I know the House is having a hearing today about Benghazi, but I haven't seen any new information yet. It sounds from your Benghazi post like you might have. What's up?
Regarding guns & whether proposed laws would prevent tragedies, in Australia they passed a ban on automatic weapons in 1996. In the 18 years previous they had had 13 gun massacres. They haven't had any since (info from Reuters). And nobody here except Diane Feinstein was trying to do anything that ambitious. In New York City, although the gun laws are pretty strict, the Criminal Justice Coordinator found that 85% of the guns used in crimes were bought out of state (where gun laws are mostly not as strict). ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms & Tobacco) found that 30% of illegally trafficked guns came from gun shows - where background checks aren't required.
Regarding gun laws restricting the possession and use of guns, I don't understand the question. Car licensing laws restrict the possession & use of cars, fishing & hunting licenses restrict the practice of those sports by setting limits on where and when you can do them - and what you can take home. Laws against excessive noise restrict your right to be loud where it might impact other people. What should gun laws do?
And whether or not the gun crime rate has increased - since when?
"administration to involve the United States without clarity to the American people"
I cut the word "Obama" from its place in front of the word "administration" intentionally. I did that because it has been a long time since any administration has gone to the trouble to provide clarity to the American people as to any thing in which we are involved, about to become involved, or in which we were involved.
Certainly not LBJ with Vietnam, and most certainly not George W. Bush whose wars fiasco is likely the greatest foreign policy blunder in American history. Why would anyone be surprised if we did not get the straight scoop from Obama? I suppose it could be naivete', or stupidity, or just pure ideological prejudice that compels some folks to rant about the mischief of one administration, but not another.
Just when in the hell are we the people going to discard our propensity for remaining mute about the egregious behavior of a favored party, and screaming about such behavior when it is those to whom we are hostile? Such hypocrisy is a player in our decay.
Darn right I want the truth about Benghazi, but come on folks, what about the war crimes (according to the Geneva Convention, and International Law) of the Bush Administration? What about the lies to get us into those wars? That is very important unfinished business of a magnitude that dwarfs Benghazi.
That is just my opinion; rip it if you want. but don't expect a response.
You're right. I'm now totally confused about what the conservatives want. Now we're supposed to believe that the Obama administration was trying to ally with Al Queda by supporting the Libyan rebels. At the same time the conservative press and the right wing of Congress are lambasting the administration for not intervening in Syria - on the side of the rebels, some of whom have clear ties to Al Queda. And we won't talk about the fact that our support for the rebels (freedom fighters) in Afghanistan under Reagan funneled money to Bin Laden and may have enabled the creation of Al Queda in the first place - and Saddam Hussein only had chemical weapons because we made sure he got them when he was a CIA asset fighting Iran. This is a little bit much to swallow.
It's a really complicated part of the world - made more complicated by our totally opaque objectives (unless you count profit to our private military, fossil fuel and other contractors - we're for that pretty consistently, along with making sure that any protections for worker or consumer rights are destroyed) - but if I lived there, I'd just want the US to butt out, including US support for whatever dictator promotes American interests.
If these hearings were actually directed toward some understanding of what is going on in the Middle East, that would be fabulous. But this looks like a waste of money directed at making Democratic politicians look bad. I mean, we could be talking about the 59 people killed in attacks on US State department outposts under George W. Bush, but we never did. We could also be talking about the Republican House's refusal to fund the State Department's requests for money for Embassy security, but we don't seem to be talking about that either. When over 200 service people were killed in the barracks bombing in Lebanon in the '80's, we didn't hold hearings against Reagan, we just watched him withdraw our forces - which would have been called cutting and running if a liberal had done it.
This seems like just another complicated plot with no understandable motive. I mean, I watch a lot of crime shows and if I can't figure out why somebody would do that, I usually decide it wasn't them - or it wasn't a crime in the first place.
Warren is fabulous. She can always cut to the chase really clearly. I wish I could - that's why I hate Twitter. 140 characters isn't enough to say "Hello".
C'mon, you crazy liberals. How can we possibly offer college students the same deal we offer big financial institutions?
I mean, how do you expect the money to keep flowing to the top of the capitalist pyramid if we level the playing field? What kind of country would this be if not for favoritism toward corporations?
How will conservatives fund their billion dollar campaigns if we don't make sure the big bankers living out on Long Island have plenty of spare change lying around?
Face it, y'all would miss Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachman.
And what about the "trickle down" economics of the neo-con media world? How will Rush, and Glenn, and Shaun, and all the other big bag of gas neo-con talking heads make a living if we don't keep the deck stacked in favor of rich dudes and big business?
You liberals and your crazy utopian ideas about a fairness and equity. Sheesh. Everybody knows America was invented to favor rich, white, land owners. Surely we shouldn't second guess the elites that founded our country, or the elites that continue to buy themselves elections.
Good morning everyone ...
May the raindrops fall lightly on your brow
May the soft winds freshen your spirit
May the sunshine brighten your heart
May the burdens of the day rest lightly upon you
And may God enfold you in the mantle of His love.
(an olde Irish toast - but a great way to say "good mornin')
I must ask the liberals if this was Bush's watch and Benghazi happened on his watch would you feel the same way about Benghazi? Try to be honest here you would because you have so much hatred towards him. Now Obama insulted the Libyan leader basically called him a liar when the Libyan leader said it was terrorist attack on the consult he felt so insulted that the scene of the attack was not sealed off he didn't cooperate with the USA would not let them investigate for 18 days for what to protect President Obama's political life. This is such a sad story of no morals when it comes to politics.
To Jason's point, thinking about whether I would have felt this was as much of an outrage if Bush had done it, honestly, there was so much that I was outraged about in that administration that I'm not sure this would have been at the top of my list.
And to DO - fine, I think things should be investigated. It's just that I don't understand what is supposed to have happened in Benghazi and who it benefits.
Making an agreement about which areas of Iraq should go to which oil companies, then starting a war to get access for those companies, and making unions illegal as one of the first acts of the occupation government, in fact trying to re-make the society as an unrestricted business paradise (not that it turned out like the instigators hoped) - that I understand.
Negotiating a trade deal in secret that will give multinational corporations the ability to challenge laws made by our citizens as "trade infractions" in arbitration by panels of "trade experts" - I see who that would benefit and why they might want it. This happened in NAFTA and is being negotiated right now on the Trans Pacific Partnership, which would be a step up from NAFTA. That's something that I really think we should be finding out about - but we can't, the negotiations are secret. Sen. Ron Wyden, Chair of the Subcommittee on International Trade, Customs, and Global Competitiveness has introduced a bill that would require Congress to get draft texts of proposed trade agreements. As it stands now, not even Wyden can find out what's in TPP, although representatives of private industry are being consulted. That's more what I want to know.
And if I unplug my cable, I won't be able to watch C-Span or "Democracy Now" either.
The thing that most outraged me about Bush was lying us into Iraq and causing so much death, destruction & waste of resources. There were an awful lot of others, some connected to Iraq, some not, but that's probably the biggest. You seem to think that I'm a big Obama supporter. It's true, I could be, as far as you know, but there are also a lot of outrages on his watch.
Like not one prosecution for the massive fraud that led up to the 2008 economic collapse. Like continuing to appoint his economic team from the Wall Street crowd that led us into it. Like continuing to imprison people at Guantanamo (for as long as 11 years) who have never had a chance to plead their case, some of whom everyone agrees were never a threat in the first place. Like immediately suing to keep in place the provision of the NDAA that allows the indefinite detention of US citizens for being declared a terrorist or providing support to terrorists (completely undefined) by some Administration official. Like talking opposition to Citizens United & money in politics, then creating his own Super PAC. Like pushing the TPP when he ran in 2008 as an opponent of NAFTA. Like totally abandoning the environment - which is probably the the thing that will cause the most damage to the most people; possibly all of us.
You're absolutely right about PNAC. That organization was and is a complete assault on the idea that the world might ever become anything but a bloodbath funded by the common people. But with PNAC's activities, I could see how what they were doing would play to advantage for the defense industry, the oil industry and a number of others.
It just doesn't seem to me that Benghazi leads anywhere. How did it benefit anybody for Ambassador Stevens to die? It looks to me at worst like a screw-up with an attendant cover-up. That's certainly nothing new. It doesn't seem to me to be the way to get at much.
If you could actually get the huge gobs of money that currently dominate our politics out of the driver's seat, that might give us some chance. Prosecuting the players in the financial system who made a fortune on a completely foreseeable crisis (the FBI told Congress about an epidemic of fraud in the mortgage market in 2004) might be a way to start it unraveling.
All the Politicians are having a game every day! Any havoc they can keep going they will , not for us, but for their own future! All the New Dudes coming up now might as well have went to Camp for Brain Washing! Is there anyone fooled by these people! Just watching what go's on in the Media makes me want to puke! They talk about Terror Happening in this Country? When all they do is put out scary remarks about our health,our morals,our habits! Isn't that a form of Terror?? I think since Bush got away with his Treasonous Act has sparked some things that others will try,all kinds of things? Maybe i'm wrong, but it could happen?? My rant for the Month!!
I clicked the link to Washington's Blog, which seems to be an interesting site. The story you quote from has no byline, however. Do you know where the info there is coming from? It's not so much that I disagree, I'd just like to have a source I know something about. If I quote it, for example, and someone asked where I got the info I wouldn't have anything to say but Washington's Blog & I don't know who they are.
All in all, I'm exasperated by the current House investigation & Fox's focus on Benghazi because I can't believe that this effort has anything at its base but an attempt by a hyper-partisan Republican party to defeat Democrats in 2014 & 2016.
I don't think this investigation is intended to find anything else. Do you really think that House Republicans are trying to find Neo-Con control of our foreign policy?
Do: Your comments are interesting but i still haven't figured out what Point your trying to make. I think most of us know we are living an illusion of Democracy! (in your mind), what would correct our problems? A new form of Government,What? Elections just bring on more Dudes with NO Character! And the American People would stand NO chance in a Revolution with our Military.It seems that no amount of common sense reasoning makes any difference! Do you have an opinion of what the people could do?
In my opinion there is lots of good stuff from all of you who have posted recently. It seems nearly everyone has gotten past the relatively superficial differences between Democratic and Republican base policies, and on to the fact that neither serves the real needs of the populis.
Jason, and rr3 are far behind the curve in my opinion because they still buy into one party bad, other party good promotion which is exactly where those running the show want them to remain. We can not be suckers for the corporate cabal's, or whatever else you want to call it, divide and conquer ploy. Which brings me to ponder whether, or not Benghazi is nothing more than a distraction promoted to keep us divided, and distracted from deeper, and more serious problems.
It is my further opinion that a necessary first step to at least slow the onslaught against the citizenry is to get all the private money out of federal elections, and accept that such costs must be born by those who wish to be served, we the people. One seldom gets anything of value that one has not paid for. Until federal office holders are paid in every way exclusively by us they will not be working for us.
When I say paid for by the people I mean equal opportunity for all viable candidates to get out their message to the people through a tax payer financed election apparatus.
I also mean that office holders may not participate in the yoyo back and forth between Congress, and corporations, or any other form of pecuniary gain precipitated by congressional service. I know the devil is in the details of that, but generally speaking a past congress person could take a job as say a college official, but not a corporate executive.
My point News is that we must address the control of the corporate masters of both parties. Each hand out tokens to their constituency, but all the goodies to the masters. I agree that the Dems provide more laudable tokens than Repubs, but think how much better service we would get from their inclinations if they were not stymied by the neccessity that their first service be to the plutocracy.
I believe that most of those of good conscience in congress would appreciate the opportunity to respond directly to the citizenry who paid for campaigns, than having to to spend the majority of their time begging for campaign money from corporate entities, labor organizations, and billionaires.
Until we figure out that if we want something we are going to have to directly pay for it, and do so, I too will be voting for those whose inclination is to be concerned about ordinary folk's welfare, even though they must first serve the masters. Yes, it is also my opinion that those are far more often Democrats than Republicans.
The majority of Americans has (NO) say about Anything,and a very short memory,of how they've been screwed by the very ones we Voted into office! I ask you, what form of Government is that? There has to be a better way! The American People are too passive,i think.We have given up our Power for the Illusion of Democracy! So how do you change a system that is made up and executed by People without Character,because there is no one you can see in the future!
I'm lucky to live in a place where I can vote for Greens, etc. without it making anybody lose who I think should've won, so that's what I'll probably do.
I've gone to working on issues, as long as what is really running the place is money. And, of course, getting the money out is a huge issue that can be worked on by trying to get a Constitutional amendment & publicly financed elections. There are around 17 proposed amendments currently in Congress and a lot of localities have passed resolutions favoring an amendment. More info here: http://getmoneyout.com/, here: http://action.citizen.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=12139, here: https://movetoamend.org/, and here: http://www.rootstrikers.org/ted_promo?splash=1. There are more, too, but I think this is enough for now. There's also a disclosure bill that Trevor Potter was pushing on the Stephen Colbert show - more here: http://anticorruptionact.org/
Currently, there's also the TPP trade agreement that is being negotiated as we speak by unnamed trade reps AND reps from hundreds of the biggest international corporations. They're also trying to get fast track authorization from Congress (which has expired, luckily - NAFTA probably wouldn't have passed without it) which would give Congress no input except a yes or no vote on a done deal. You should get involved with this, News - Australia is one of the partners. You probably know about it, though. Being in the Pacific, Australians probably pay more attention to internal politics in Pacific countries than we do - it was a huge deal in the last Japanese election. I think the anti-TPP candidate won - then joined the partnership (why am I not surprised?). More info here: http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/, here: http://www.citizen.org/TPP and here: http://tppxborder.org/. Opposing this deal is something people on both the left and the right may want to do because it gives corporations much more power to fight laws passed by our representatives at every level - so it's a blatant power grab by corporations to thwart democracy across the board.
'Havetosay' you seem a familiar voice if not a familiar name on these blogs. Be that as it may your postings are full of information, and in my opinion merit. Welcome, or glad you are back. :)
Thanks for the links HAVETROSAY!
Thanks for the welcome, OK & the appreciation, JO. I've been reading for a while, but just started commenting.
Thanks for the links about climate, news. They're really scary. I can't believe that people are still so adamant about change not being real. The risks are just so huge if they're wrong. Even Gov. Schwartzenegger in CA (a Republican) said something about the fact that if it was a Dr., you'd want a second opinion. I mean, if you have an appendectomy that wasn't necessary it's a waste, but if you don't have one and you needed it, you're dead (as you see, I'm fixated on the appendix). Climate change seems like that kind of problem.
Regarding non-recorded votes, that's an interesting idea. It's true that the rich wouldn't want to buy a pig in a poke - the only problem is that we wouldn't know when a politician made a good vote either. I'm afraid they'd lie to us more than they'd lie to their big donors. Then we'd just have to throw out the baby with the bath water at the next election. I haven't really thought it through, though. Will consider further.
Intimidation is the reason for a lot of votes that don't make sense! How is that different from the Mafia taking over some Business they want? I think the Government has learned a lot from them. If they are making Laws make some that protects others,in office from this? I do think J. EDGER HOOVER BEING IN OFFICE KEPT A LOT OF THESE POLITICIAN IN CHECK. But they made sure that NO one could gain that kind of power again! So they feel they can walk on that line again,between good and bad. A big bunch of thugs is all we have now?
The real question why hasn't the jihadist behind the the Benghazi been caught and well on their way to being married to justice. It was because a sitting President was worried about politics instead of being president so they dug up this you tube video made a year from the event. And used that to help with there talking points that Al Queda was dead the war on terrorism was wrapping up and low and behold it isn't so yeah this is important even some democrats are putting a distance and bet even more will. We have a liar in chief and he is going to Clinton under the bus to protect himself.
The fate of our nation is not in the hands of such as we old geezers with the time, and inclination to belly ache on blogs about the state of the union, at times about each other, and to offer solutions that will be ignored by nearly everyone. We are all far too full of ourselves.
The spearhead of any movement with potential to effect change are the eighty million strong millenials, the Crash Generation. They are the ones who are suffering from the realities of non-existent opportunity for those just bursting on the scene in America. The change they choose to bring about will not be the change that any of us promote, nor that our generations promote. It is their turn.
That is not to say that we should not yammer on, if for no other reason than that it is good to use our minds. Beyond that it is our choice, no our duty, to support them as they begin to demand, and make the changes they feel necessary in their world. Lets see what it is they want, join them if we can in their endeavor, and offer to them what they ask of us.
The following link is to commentary by one of them, who among other things states that if the crash, and a recovery limited to a few is their civil rights movement, it is nascent, and they are at about 1957 relatively speaking. I hope that those who choose to read at the link will come away with some hope, and relief that they will make positive changes in their time. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16265-what-is-the-crash-generation
You have a point, OK, and thanks for the link to the Truthout piece. But that's just another reason that we shouldn't be wasting time and money on Benghazi. In Watergate, people who had been arrested for burglary were found to be on the GOP payroll. There was a $25,000 check made out to CREEP (Committee to Re-Elect the President) that showed up in the account of one of the burglars. If there was anything approaching that level of proof of wrongdoing connected with Benghazi, you can bet we'd already have a special select committee. There have been people talking about impeaching Obama since about a month after he was first elected for one thing or another, but it doesn't say crime. It mostly says that there are a bunch of people who have trouble living with fact that a majority of Americans disagreed with them & they lost the election.
I was listening to a clip of Rep. Barbara Jordan when they brought Articles of Impeachment against Nixon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDcYiyF5eLc. She focused on the fact that it was intended to be used only for really important things - but that boat has obviously sailed. We impeached Clinton for sex in the Oval Office, but we didn't even investigate for torture. We didn't appoint a special select committee when no WMD were found in Iraq, even though that cost over 4,000 American lives, over 100,000 Iraqi ones and what will eventually end up being trillions of dollars. Why on earth would we start with this President now over how many edits there were in a memo of talking points for press interviews?
We've got serious real problems right now that need to be addressed. Young people desperately need for us to break the lock that entrenched capital has on the political process so that they have a chance.
And if we want to investigate the fact that the government wants to know everything about us, but tell us nothing about what they're doing in our name, why don't we start with torture, why don't we start with no prosecutions coming out of the financial collapse, why don't we start with the attacks we make around the world that are so costly in lives, treasure and the opinion people around the world have of America (wars, drone strikes), why don't we start with the serious prosecutions of the whistle-blowers who suffer huge prosecutions and punishments for telling us anything (Bradley Manning, Aaron Swartz, John Keriakou http://www.democracynow.org/2013/1/30/ex_cia_agent_whistleblower_john_kiriakou, Thomas Drake http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/03/20/nsa-whistleblower-thomas-drake-all-d...
Some of us may be old geezers, but we're also the modern version of Elders, people whose opinions have weight because they have experience - they were there. We have important information to bring to the discussion.
Gun crime HAS gone down, along with the rest of violent crime. There was a surge and then decline that started in about the '60's, peaked in the early '90's, then went down through the '90's & '00's. Kevin Drum wrote an interesting article in Mother Jones about the almost exact correlation (with an approximately 20 year lag) between that curve and the curve of leaded gasoline. It started to be used in the '40's, peaked in the early '70's and then was banned and became less prevalent. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline. There are a bunch of updates & related articles available in the Mother Jones archives, too. Drum includes a lot of detail about localized correlations & correlations in other countries. It's pretty convincing.
On the other hand, I've seen two studies recently about gun crime & death, and gun laws that show definite correlations between gun violence and lax gun laws. Gun deaths of all types also correlate. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/us/report-links-high-rates-of-gun-violence-to-..., http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/report/2013/04/02/58382/a..., http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1661390.
I don't think any localities are actually trying to ban guns (although there are a number of places where you don't have to worry about varmints in the barn or pasture). They're just trying to regulate gun use. I mean, I can't think of a way that a stamp collection can kill anybody - or even hurt them. Guns are different.
The decreasing violent crime rate is also attributed to the aging population of our country.
I am thinking that Obama and Bush have become a serial reality of the old TV drama "I Spy" starring Bill Cosby, and Robert Culp.
Get a load of this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/13/ap-phone-records-government-intrusion-u...
In case some of you are too young to remember "I Spy" (doubtful) here is a link for context. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Spy_(1965_TV_series) ;)
Smart Dog, did you read Drum's article? In it, and in the updates and follow-ups at Mother Jones, he makes it real clear that he knows that correlation is not causation. I'm aware of that too, which is why I used the word correlation and not causation. However, if you find the same correlation across a lot of different situations, it starts to look more and more possible that there may be causes here.
Are there situation where strong gun laws and less gun violence and death correlate? I'd love to check it out.
Lead is an excellent candidate for the previously unknown untested "C" you're talking about. Rudy Giuliani claimed crime dropped because of his brand of policing (although the drop in crime started before he got there - and occurred all over the country where he wasn't Mayor). Some people thought it was the crack epidemic. But nothing was tracking that well. Lead was tested, not only across the US, but across the world and in small localities. There was nowhere where the correlation wasn't present. That's moving strongly toward proof of causation.
I'd also love to see if the aging of the population has been tracked for correlation. It makes sense as a candidate for the reason. Has anybody done that study?
The twenty cities in the world with the highest murder rate per capita are all in Latin America. Many of them are in Mexico where guns proliferate. http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-2012-10?op=1
New Orleans at number twenty one has the highest per capita murder rate in our nation. Louisiana has the most lax gun laws in the United States. http://www.examiner.com/article/louisiana-gun-rights-control-laws-worst-the-nati... Neither Chicago, nor Washington D. C. made the top fifty cities with high per capita murder rates.
Missouri used to require background checks on all gun sales, including private sales. In 2007, that was relaxed, making it possible to buy a gun in a sale between private parties without a background check. In the three years after the change in law the gun-murder rate rose from an average of 4.6/100,000 to an average of 5.7/100,000 - up nearly 25%. 55% of the guns recovered at crime scenes had come from in-state sales before the repeal. Afterwards, 70% of guns from crime scenes had been bought in-state. This data is from a study published in 2013 by Mayors Against Illegal Guns. Researchers at Johns Hopkins preliminarily concluded that the change in the law was a primary cause of the increase in gun murders. http://www.scribd.com/doc/133035248/America-Under-the-Gun page 39. There is a fact sheet about gun deaths in MO on pages 63 & 64. Missouri has the fourth highest gun murder rate in America, behind Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.
Related to your comment Havetosay is that at forty three on the list of fifty cities in the world with the highest murder rate per capita is St. Louis.
At thirty is Detroit. Michigan also has lax gun laws, including allowing concealed carry, that leans toward open carry in practice.
"Offer them what they ask of us? Angry mobs that are ticked off because our generation was too apathetic to save what was given to us? What are you going to have to offer them?"-DO
Our heads, and I suppose that it is up to them whether they choose literally, or figuratively; though one can not entirely rule out the remote possibility that they choose what is inside our heads. ;)
Generation after generation for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This seems to hold true even culturally though I know it was not the focus of Newton's Third Law.
The Gilded Age was countered by the Progressive Movement. That movement ebbed, and back came the greed resulting in the Great Depression. Then in reaction union movements, Roosevelt, and the rest.
Each generation is doomed to deal with the obvious that impedes them. Meanwhile detritus accumulates spanning generations, and fertilizing what ever generates in its season.
There are a few things I want to remind us of:
Slavery has been outlawed in most of the world. It does still occur under another name in situations of trafficking, terrible working conditions worldwide and labor sold out of private prisons here at home, but there is a recognition that it is an evil almost everywhere. That wasn't always so.
The rights of people - women, children, the disabled, indigenous inhabitants of various areas - are now part of what we have to consider. They're not always realized, but they're at least part of the conversation.
Anesthetic exists. And I, therefore, still have teeth.
Striking workers haven't been shot on the picket line for quite a while in the US. Labor organizers still get shot in various countries and some of them work for US companies, but they can't do it here. That's one of the reasons multinationals exist - they'd rather do business elsewhere and labor rights is one of the reasons. One step at a time. Likewise the collapsed factory in Bangladesh versus the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. One step at a time.
Voting Rights activists in the US don't generally end up shot and buried in an earth dam anymore.
Women in most parts of the world can vote and own property - and in many places they can have jobs that don't involve cooking, cleaning, kids or house management.
It's true that carbon levels in the atmosphere are frighteningly high, but they've been rising ever since the industrial revolution and nobody even worried about it. I don't know that we're at fault more than earlier humans - we just have the bad luck to be the ones in charge when we've figured out that they are threatening our lives.
And I'm not even talking about how much better life is for us than for a French peasant of Marie Antoinette's time or a Russian serf in the 18th century - or anybody European when the black death came through.
The next generation has lots to bring us to task for, but the world we received was no paradise either. The corporate state looks to have a lot more technical facility to dominate the world than Ivan the Terrible or Genghis Khan or Darius of Persia, but those guys were not slouches.
I think the generation coming up will care a lot more about who has the assets they need to actually make the world better for them. What will matter is where we stand in the struggle to keep everybody going - and what we have to offer.
I don't believe there's nothing in anybody's head that wasn't put there by encroaching tyranny. That's not what I've read on this blog. There's a lot of crud in my head, but there are also some interesting tidbits I've picked up here and there.
For example - here's a TED talk about poverty around the world that was even a little hopeful. http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_on_poverty.html
Now, I've got to ask. Holder said today that he was going to open an investigation into the IRS over the scrutiny they gave to Tea Party groups over applications for tax exempt status. What do you guys think?
I think it's totally inappropriate to apply special hurdles to anybody based on what their political beliefs are. On the other hand, I've been involved in a lot of political organizations and none of them have ever been able to accept contributions on a tax exempt basis. What kind of tax exempt status were these groups seeking? I thought that political organizations weren't tax exempt. Charitable organizations are, but not political ones. And if something is organized as a Tea Party group, isn't it by definition political? I mean, leftist groups should be looked at as well, but the groups in question ended up getting the status they wanted, didn't they? Should they have?
In fact, I know there are organizations that call themselves social welfare organizations [501c(4)'s] which are tax exempt (whatever that means - I don't know) AND don't have to disclose their donors - they just have to say that their primary purpose isn't political, no matter what they do. Stephen Colbert and his lawyer, Trevor Potter are great on this: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/398531/september-29-2011/... and http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/421160/november-12-2012/c.... That's absolutely amazingly ridiculous. Is that the kind of status the groups in question wanted? If so, why should we be allowing that?
The idea that climate change is the defining issue here isn't something I'd argue with you about. I'm terrified.
I'm curious, though, about what people in Marshall think about it. I was talking to a guy who had farmed in Saline County all of his life (many years) last spring and he was talking about not hearing frogs like he used to. He was wondering what had happened to them. Are other people having similar experiences?
Re: music break. My favorite quote in the comments:
"Proof God likes Jazz, giving us a talent like Bob James."
Thanks for the post, news!
How are we assisting in pulling the rug out from under them?
I certainly don't advocate complacency. I was just trying not to fall into a depressed inaction - feeling that all is lost, things are hopeless. They may be, but giving up won't make anything better.
You're right, I would hate to see Genghis Khan with drones. All I'm trying to say is that I''m not blaming myself for not being able to defeat Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Chase, Citibank and all the rest on my own. They're strong opponents. The younger generation can blame me for not winning, I guess, but I'm doing the best I can. AND I intend to continue opposing them, both for me and my children.
I find it pretty annoying that people who say they're traditionalists don't seem to get that their grandparents knew that John D. Rockefeller wasn't on their side. In fact, I heard somebody say that their grandparents thought Rockefeller was Satan. But his (Rockefeller's) modern counterparts have a lot of support from people who espouse traditional values. I don't know why. Do you?
Regardig the cycles you mentioned, you might find this interesting. This guy, Neil Howe, co-wrote a book called "The Fourth Turning" that talks about a cycle of different perspectives that covers 4 generations and lasts about 80 years. Here's part 1 of a discussion of it: http://www.conversationswithgreatminds.com/video/conversations-great-minds-neil-.... And Part II: http://www.conversationswithgreatminds.com/video/conversations-great-minds-neil-....
News you cited CNN debunks ABC news on Benhgazi isn't CNN the one that claims reporters are appearing via satellite when they really at the headquarters google it and you will find Steven Colbert exposing a big liberal btw... Also Chris Mathews he was so up Obama's but during the election he could tell everybody what Obama ate a month ago has turned on him or expressed his frustration here in his own words btw if I didn't know better I thought this was Republican saying this. Here is the quote.
"So what part does he like? He likes going on the road, campaigning, visiting businesses like he does every couple days somewhere in Ohio or somewhere," Matthews continued. "But what part does he like? He doesn't like lobbying for the bills he cares about. He doesn't like selling to the press. He doesn't like giving orders or giving somebody the power to give orders. He doesn't seem to like being an executive."
DO I have been meaning to ask you for a while, just what is it that you do to save our society, that I do not do beyond carping on these blogs a slightly more suspicious spin than do I of a society in decline?
Are you plotting something? ;)
Have to say,
I have many tree frogs in my neighborhood, so they are doing ok around where I live in the country.
It does seem, however, that the bullfrogs are dwindling. I attribute some of this to the fact that the Missouri Department of Conservation re-introduced River Otters several years ago and now the little bastages are invading farm ponds and lakes. They seem to like to kill other aquatic life for fun.
Apparently I can shoot them in my farm ponds with no repercussion as they will kill all the fish for entertainment. (Well, as long as News lets me keep my guns). I have been wondering if they also enjoy murdering frogs as well.
River Otters, the mass murderers of the aquatic world.
If it is them reducing the frog population then they are really cutting into my enjoyment of the 4th of July.
What could possibly be more American than shooting a bunch of bull frogs, and having beer, fireworks, frog legs on the 4th, eh?
Oh, and the effects of climate change on farming are things like snow during the second week of May, unpredictible/abnormal rains, wind, and hail.
But what's worse than climate change for farmers at this point is the fact that once commodity prices climbed to a level that actually makes farming look like a reasonable business on paper, everybody in agribusiness doubled their prices for everything.
Trust me, John Deere didn't suffer a doubling of the cost to produce tractors in the last 10 years but they sure as heck doubled the price of everything they sell and then some.
Then there is that awarding of patents on genetics. That right there robbed every farmer in America of thousands of dollars. Another fine example of corporate welfare through regulation and courts. As a farmer, I no longer own that crop in the field because Pioneer owns the DNA in every kernel. Ridiculous gross profits through legislation. Aint' it great.
I'll worry about climate change affecting my operation as soon as I figure out how to keep everybody in agriculture from robbing me blind, just becasue they can.
Obama was definitely not qualified to be president. I don't think even News could make a bona-fide case that he was. Law professor, Community Oragnizer (whatever that is?), and one term Senator do not a leader make.
However, he was some better than the alternative in both elections. I really did not want to entertain the possibility that Sara Palin would be President of the United States for obvious reasons in 2007.
As far as Romney 2012, same thing. Do you really want to take a chance that Paul Ryan, mister big-shot king of arrogance, who thinks Ayn Rand's versions of social engineering are a good idea, would wind up in charge? Not me. Plus, let's face it, Mitt is a spoiled rich kid. Hard not to be when you grew up in private school with a millionaire dad. Mitt made his money the old fashioned way, he inherited it. (Much like those fine, self made men, the Koch brothers.)
I think fossil fuels & agribusiness are related. The same processes that agribusiness is using to rob you blind (capture of the legal & legislative processes)are being used by the fossil fuel industry to trump environmental concerns and keep the price of gas high at the pump.
The seed situation is a scandal. The Supreme Court's decision for Monsanto against the farmer who planted his soybeans from the year before is awful. I was going to say unbelievable, but unfortunately I'm not even surprised, much less unbelieving. "The Center for Food Safety released a report in February that showed three corporations control much of the global commercial seed market. It found that from 1995-2011, the average cost to plant 1 acre of soybeans rose 325%." That's horrible. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/13/monsanto-patent-grain-biote...
And regarding frogs, I was looking around and found this article about the fact that frogs develop into one sex or the other partly based on the environment - which makes them really vulnerable to pollution. Apparently atrazine, which is common in water, makes most of them develop as females - making it hard for there to be a lot of them. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/11/tyrone-hayes-atrazine-syngenta-fe....
I'm really unhappy to hear that it may be river otters, though. I used to love to watch the otters at the KC zoo. Are they the same animal? They seemed so playful - are they really murderers? In any case, the loss of frog's legs is terrible. They're great to eat. Once again, not something I've been able to enjoy lately.
I just saw a headline in this paper saying that Enbridge is running a pipeline under 22 county roads.
Enbridge is the company that owned the pipeline that ruptured in 2010 and dumped 877,000 gallons of Canadian heavy crude (tar sands oil - or bitumen) into the Kalamazoo River in Michigan. It still hasn't been cleaned up, although Enbridge claims is has been. http://www.epa.gov/enbridgespill/, http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2013/01/kalamazoo_oil_spill_links_.... Another pipeline broke in 2012 in Wisconsin, leaking 50,000 gallons. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/29/nation/la-na-nn-enbridge-wisconsin-oil-s.... Right after that spill, they also closed down a pipeline in Canada - it spilled, too, right after the Wisconsin one. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/enbridge-shuts-large-canada-us-pipe...
Is anybody concerned about an Enbridge pipeline across Saline County?
Have To Say,
It is pure speculation on my part about otters killing frogs. I do know the cute little devils will wreak havoc on the fish population in a very short time though.
They are fun to watch until the day comes that you show up at your favorite fishing hole and find dozens of dead fish laying on the bank and a pair otters happily frolicking away in the pond.
Now I carry a gun every time I go fishing in order to protect my fish from those thuggish otters.
I can see the reality tv show now, "Gangland Otters."
Hey if Discovery Channel will pay for "Sara Palin's Alaska," then I figure they will pay for just about anything on tape, eh?
Oh, and yeah. You are right about Atrizine. Very, very nasty stuff. Brought to you by the chemical industry pre-EPA. For all the EPA haters out there, we'd all be cancer ridden mutants by now if somebody didn't reign in the toxic chemicals of the first 70 years of the 20th century. Think Asbestos, DDT, Atrizine, Trichlorethelyne, Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCB's), Dioxin, Chlordane, and so on. All the fun stuff that would be killing us in the name of higher profits if not for government intervention.
I am a big Round-Up fan, however. Great stuff, and it degrades in soil.
There is a big difference between realism, and defeatism DO. I know the difference, and act accordingly. I am not going to brag credentials back, and forth with you, but I have been engaged regarding problems in our society for over fifty years. I still am, and that excludes activities on these blogs concerning which it is debatable as to how much influence they have.
I raised my child (single parent) accordingly, and I share my wisdom with my grandson.
So sneer to your hearts content, especially if you find it as personally therapeutic as your other activity on the blogs. That is a positive thing. Do you garden, or have other hobbies? Hobbies are important, I'm glad you are able to indulge yours here.
"Gangland Otters" - now all of my illusions are shattered. They looked so happy and fun-loving.
I think I was the one to bring up climate change - so I should probably respond.
DO, I've got to point out that the article you quote is an opinion piece - and I don't think I'll be alone in strenuously disagreeing with some of the assertions in it.
"Thanks to the single-minded demonization of this natural and essential atmospheric gas by advocates of government control of energy production..." I don't know where they get the info that advocates of renewable energy want government control of energy production - regulation, yes, but that doesn't mean control. In fact, one of the possible paths for development would be for people to capture renewable energy independently and be able to sell it back into the grid (many states support this path). There are also various initiatives to help people capture energy on their own - geothermal houses, solar hot water heaters, etc. These things would make the consumer less under the control of the national energy system than they are now, wouldn't they?
"The cessation of observed global warming for the past decade or so ..." You'll find a lot of pushback on that. This is what Politifact said about Obama's claim that 12 of the hottest years on record have come in the last 15. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/feb/15/barack-obama/bara.... Politifact rated his statement true. Here's one that focuses on the increase in ocean warming. Any slowdown in the increase in surface temperature is offset by increases in temperature in the deep ocean. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/03/25/1768601/in-hot-water-global-warming-.... The claim that warming has stopped is just false.
"The current levels of carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere, approaching 400 parts per million, are low by the standards of geological and plant evolutionary history." This one kills me. It may be true, but the authors of this article don't mention that people didn't exist on the planet when carbon dioxide levels were higher than they are now. Do you really want to find out first hand if those high levels are compatible with human life?
This WSJ opinion piece doesn't convince me that we should ignore the clear consensus shown by this study: http://skepticalscience.com/97-percent-consensus-cook-et-al-2013.html. They found that 97% of the peer-reviewed scientific literature on the subject from 1991 to 2011 accepted the reality of human-caused global warming.
And if renewable energy advocates are wrong, what's the downside of not needing to cut the tops off of mountains for coal, destroy air and water quality by fracking and risk environmentally catastrophic oil spills? If they're right, the downside is devastation across the globe. Why would we want to risk it?
But you're bringing lots of info on the danger of Roundup? This is interesting. I want to check your links.
Another question DO; do you believe that Rand Paul is the political answer to our problems? If not who?
You have dodged just who it is that you politically admire for a long time now. A straight forward answer would be a pleasant surprise.
I'm surprised the US Supreme Court hasn't said that "chickens are people too," yet.
That would make the HSUS sooooooo happy.
And regarding DO's links to Dr. Joseph Mercola's website, I am highly skeptical. I reckon my first clue might have been the great big "DONATE NOW" at the bottom of the page. It would appear that the good doctor has an agenda.
You do realize that Mercola makes a living off selling books, and non-USDA regulated "health supplements," to folks who think there is something wrong with modern agriculture, don't you?
Could it be possible that Dr. Mercola is attempting to create controversy where there is none in order to profit?
Surely such a thing would not occur in super-capitalist, 21st century America, would it?
I encourage everyone to read Joseph Mercola, DO's Wiki. He appears to be a little out of the main stream.
Don't get me wrong, I like rebels, but it appears this Doctor of Osteopathy is making a pretty good living with his rebellion pandering to the food conspiracy theorists.
Would not consider him a credible source of information what with the warnings from the FDA and all.
Oh, yeah, he also thinks that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, along with several other theories that remain unproven.
I agree with Businessweek, who referred to him as a "21st century snake oil salesman."
Why not label GMO foods? DO has a point. Why is there such resistance by agribusiness to labeling of them? I find it outrageous that they are curtailing our opportunity to choose whether, or not we use them. There must be something to concerns about GMOs else Europe would not ban them.
As for glysophate I quit personally using it years ago because on a small personal scale there were viable alternative practices. Actually I only used it on poison ivy on my premises before I quit all together.
It troubles me that Corp Ag does not do more research, and development on potentially more benign methods, instead of resting their case with GMOs, grandly proclaiming this is the answer; until it isn't, and the next push is on to find the answer.
Whenever humans make huge changes in what nature has established there are always unintended consequences. We are losing our bees, especially honey bees. When they are gone we are also likely gone.
I am of course not laying that problem at Roundup's door, nor saying that GMOs are the cause. What I am saying is that they may be part of cumulative agricultural practices that are killing our bees.
Also a factor may be the practice of placing hives within fields of a specific crop, denying bees their natural propensity to vary their food source.
That is just two of the potential causations. There are many more.
Big Ag, and governmental promotion of its grand schemes have gotten us into trouble before, and it will again. The promotion of fence line to fence line production of crops that was once the rage is a good example of that. Tree lines were bull dozed, and a wrathful wind blew across the plains. Nuff said.
Hey, OKR. You do know that many of those "tree lines" or fence rows full of trees, were planted, don't you?
If you find some old abstracts from here in Saline County around the time the land was homesteaded, you will find that one of the conditions was that the 80 acres you got from the federal government had to have the boundary planted in "Osage Orange" (Hedge) trees.
All those fence rows being bulldozed out were not part of the native prairie of North Central Missouri. They were planted as part of a conservation effort in the early 19th century for wind (dust) and erosion control. An effort I would support today, by the way.
I have read the original deed to parts of my farm when it was granted to a Captain in the Union Army for his service following the Civil War. (I always wonder how that went over in "Little Dixie.") Once again, there was the requirement to plant the perimeter in Hedge trees. Also had 2 years to build a home on the property or it reverted back to the federal government, and you could not sell the land for a minimum of 5 years, I believe.
I am a tree hugger, personally, but to believe that all those trees in fence rows around Saline County were originally put there by mother nature is incorrect. Additionally, many of the Red Oaks and Locusts around these parts were planted on old coal strip mine property in the late 19th and early 20th century. Many of the strip mines in western Saline County were still operating into the 1930's.
I'm a big fan of mother nature, but sometimes we attribute a little too much to her actions.
You can rest assured that the common farming practices of today are far, far better than what was going on from the early 20th century right up until the 1980's. Erosion control practices are way better and Ag chemicals far less toxic than what our parents and grandparents were doing.
And I still say Mercola is a snake oil salesman with no peer reviewed science on his side. He is merely cashing in on the public fear of agriculture which has been demonized by urban folks who have no idea where their food comes from or how it gets onto the grocery store shelves. Hell, they don't even know what's in "pink slime" but that didn't stop the vegans from coining the term because it looks "yucky."
I suggest those who don't like modern ag products plant their own gardens and raise their own chickens, hogs, and cattle. Go ahead, try to raise a years worth of food for your family on your own this summer. I guarantee 99% will be back shopping at the grocery store by Christmas.
It's easy to second guess agriculture until you actually try to feed yourself.
Much like the chuckle I get when I hear someone talk about moving to the woods and "living off the land." I usually suggest they head out and try it for a week. That will take that idea right out of your head.
Most would not stay past the first couple of days, hardly any beyond 30 days. Life in the midst of mother nature is tough, ugly, and rife with pestilence. If the spiders, snakes, mosquitoes, and chiggers don't get to you, then the thorns, poison ivy, sumac, and nettles probably will. The coons will steal your food, the mice, rats, ants, and other vermin will infest your quarters, and anything you try and save for winter will spoil. The wild is not a campground with hot showers and "hook-ups."
I'll take civilization, indoor living, modern agriculture, and grocery stores any day.
Countryman I did know that many were planted, and did not spring from nature as an entity. On the other hand the Osage indigenous people were using for bows, the bois d'arc trees, so named by French explorers who observed them, long before the U.S had indulged its penchant for manifest destiny.
In my opinion your example proves that government, and agriculture interests, may influence our environment on occasion in a positive manner. It does not support that it is always the case.
Together we have provided examples of good that may happen, and bad that may happen; which reminds us of the need to always examine broad directional changes in agricultural practice as rigorously as possible. It would be fool hardy to accept without examination the declarations of those who will profit most from the venture who tell us it is all good, trust us we have thoroughly tested it in our labs.
I've had a lot of farmers in my family and I'm with you, Countryman - I'd a lot rather get my food at the grocery store and live inside.
I am worried, though about GM foods, factory farms and the chemicals that are being used to produce food - and everything else.
We've found out a lot about the effects of chemicals on the world and us, even though there are still a lot of things that we don't really understand (like the bees), but we haven't adapted the way we legally control that process.
The rule now seems to be that things can be added to our environment unless somebody can prove that they're dangerous. So a company has huge incentives to sell something that may be dangerous - or that they KNOW is dangerous - and use the profits to block further testing or any attempt to ban the toxin. That has happened many, many times. And when they're required to prove some level of safety, most of the studies are funded by the interests who want to profit. Then implementation of regulations we do adopt is starved for funds & staff by the industry that is supposed to be regulated. Makes me not really trust people who say, for example, that GM food is safe.
We need to change our assumption - assume that something is dangerous until we know it's safe, and not wait until the damage is done and huge amounts of cash are in the hands of people who profit by continuing it.
This certainly isn't the fault of the farmer. He or she is caught in the vise of needing to come back with a competitive return. If what's available is toxic, but gives a better return, if you don't use it you'll be out of business. It's up to us to make sure that what's on the market is actually good for us - both individually and the world in general.
"Reminds me of the some of the corporate golden boys I used to work with that were too busy trying to get that next promotion to be bothered with doing the job they already had." -Smart Dog
Amen to that SD. I spent a good part of my career cleaning up the messes that the golden boys left behind as they sucked their way up the corporate ladder. ;)
Thank you my friend. My family were not impacted physically though we are filled with anguish for those less fortunate, especially the children.
Actually, I don't think anybody got audited. The organizations in question had submitted applications for tax exempt status as 501c(3 or 4 - I forget which) organizations that have social welfare as their primary purpose (the statute actually reads " ...exclusive... ", not " ...primary... ", but the IRS has been defining it as primary since 1959.
A lot of organizations were put under special scrutiny regarding their applications. More of them were conservative (called "Tea Party" or "Patriot" or "9/12" or a number of other key terms) but there were also a number of liberal groups. Only one application was denied - which came from a liberal group.
It is a long tradition going back to Calvin Coolidge for presidential administrations to use the IRS to bash their political opponents.
We should be most concerned that the current administration chose to leave alone the powerful ones on the right, and instead went after the little fish. Such timidity is a characteristic of the Obama Administration, and additional evidence that the plutocracy has a strangle hold on our government.
Inhofe in my opinion is insane, where as our other senator Tom Coburn is merely cuckoo.
Yes News in the 1960s Senator Fred Harris was a liberal.
It is interesting that when Oklahoma was founded it had one of the stronger populist socialist movements in the nation.
Oh, and I forgot to mention to you News that in fact we do have a Green Party member of the Oklahoma City Council. He represents my ward, and I had the privilege of voting for him.
He ran against a big banker at the time that our economy went to hell. The banker robo-called ceaselessly, and mailed out about three slick brochures per day. It disgusted folks who even in Oklahoma were pretty sore at big bankers. Thus Dr. Ed Shadid became councilman in a Republican ward. It helped that in our city council elections party affiliations are not identified. He has thankfully stirred things up on the city council asking questions, and presenting points of view unheard of in Oilyville.
Well said News!
Enough already DO. I have been opposed to GMOs since their beginning. Can't you find something to do DO other than your ridiculous attempt to reeducate me? LOL
Regarding GMO, on Saturday, people in 52 countries around the world marched and rallied against them - and against Monsanto. http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/445-farm-and-food-policy/17625-prot...
Some estimates of numbers were as high as 2 million http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/25/march-against-monsanto-protests-attract-mi...
In response to the discussion that's been going on here, my question is - had any of those marches been armed, would it have worked better?
Admittedly, Bernie Sanders' amendment to the farm bill that would have simply allowed states to require GMO labelling just died in the Senate. Both MO Senators voted against it. One of my Senators did. But I don't think any of those three "Nay" votes would change if I threatened to shoot somebody.
I do have to admit, though, that calls and letters from us, the non mega-rich folks, haven't worked too well either on a variety of issues. What do we plan to do about that?
We the people have one weapon that can not be taken from us, one weapon that can not be controlled, and it is feared by those who rob, and kill us. It is the national strike.
We are not yet desperate enough to do it. We fear retaliation from our employers, and are not willing to jeopardize our personal security for the common weal.
It would bring our oppressors to their knees in a week. Hopefully when we have at last had enough that will be the mechanism we utilize to make things equitable for all. It would be much more efficient than millions of idiots running around firing their precious guns at drones, and tanks in a misinformed bloody revolt.
"The End of the Beginning of the End" -William Rivers Pitt
I'm glad you think Kokesh's gun march is folly. I had heard about it, but wasn't thinking about it when I asked the question about the Monsanto march.
I asked the question because I don't understand the jump from wanting to ban GMO's to guns. In California, they had a bill mandating GMO labeling that got 47% of the vote despite the fact that opponents of the initiative were able to raise $44 million, which included large contributions from companies like Monsanto and Hershey, as opposed to about $7 million raised by supporters of labeling. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/prop-37-defeated-californ_n_2088402.htm...
Why isn't the answer getting the money out of the political process and taking personal constitutional protections away from corporations - which aren't people? I don't see what guns have to do with it.
Thanks for the link to the Gary Null movie. I watched it & thought it was good, but I don't remember anything about being armed in it. By the way, at the Monsanto action on Saturday, I spoke with a woman who is very involved in the organic food end of the discussion because of her health issues. I come to it from my anger that corporate interests have so much more power than citizens - and will destroy us all for profit if we can't get the power back. It was interesting to hear her point of view - and it was great to make connections and expand the network of people who are outraged about more and more things. Maybe we'll all call a General Strike - you're right, OK, that's a great tactic! It's too bad that the Wisconsin protesters got deflected from it to the recall of Scott Walker.
I also read the Liberty Crier piece, but I'm with News on this - I don't understand the conclusion that having a gun is the way to respond. We are all so out-firearmed by the security forces of this country that I don't see armed resistance as anything but a way to get thrown into a hole with no right to defend yourself for the rest of your life - besides being extremely dangerous to the character, or maybe soul, of the person who starts the violence. Chris Hedges is really good on this. His book, "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning" is excellent on the way people respond to violence.
Besides - the Liberty Crier piece (and some of your posts) seem to imply that having a gun is somehow acting against outrage. Where is the duty to show up and demonstrate your opposition to violations of law and liberty? Where is the work of persuading other citizens that you're right?
Public non-violent resistance seems so much more effective in this situation. The key is, as you say, education and public discussion. As soon as you bring a gun into it, you open yourself to all sorts of accusations. You can, of course, be targeted without even bringing weapons, as the Occupy movement found, but with a gun you're completely marginalized in the public mind.
I don't understand why being happy not to have concealed carry - and so not having to worry that the guy walking down the street muttering to himself might be armed - means that I think Monsanto is actually helping to eradicate world hunger. What do they have to do with one another?
Well, folks, I own a few guns and have the Pioneer version of that evil GMO corn growing on my farm.
I reckon that makes me a target for everybody.
I suppose "The world's leading Scientists, Physicians, Attorneys, Politicians and Environmental Activists" (from DO's post) that oppose GMO's would prefer that we use the old fashioned hybrid method of breeding in resistance to glycophosphate rather than direct genetic manuipulation, eh?
Want to explain to me how the end result is any different? Breeding a few thousand generations to achieve the desired plant characteristics, or just manipulate the genetics directly in one generation. Show me how the corn oil derived from either is chemically different from the other.
Also, regarding your rather generalized statement, DO, that I quoted above. I really don't care what politicians or attorneys think, as they really don't think at all, they specialize in convincing folks to believe what they want them to believe and that's about it from that crowd.
As far as the "leading scientists" are concerned, most of them work for Monsanto, Pioneer, or other leading genetic research laboratories. Those who don't probably didn't have the credentials to get the jobs in the first place.
Then there are those pesky physicians. I really don't care much what they think as most all are infected with the "doctor god" complex and think they are somehow brighter than the rest of us, and are entitled to be millionaires just because they got into medical school.
Medical school where, by the way, enrollment is limited because apparently it is more important for the few graduates to be filthy rich than to turn out enough doctors to actually provide decent health care at a reasonable price.
What a country, eh? So, I'd keep believing every conspiracy theorist with a book to sell. Good luck feeding the world with 19th century agriculture. I hope you like $10 a loaf bread and $20 a pound steak.
BTW, I consider writers, and much of media in general, the snake oil salesmen of the 21st century. Thanks, Limbaugh, for making yellow journalism, "info-tainment," and proliferating half truths and lies a never ending part of modern life.
Oh, I forgot. Good article from Truth-out, OKR. The topics there concern me much more that Round-up Ready Corn or Soybeans.
Why is it Kellog Brown and Root need to be paid for the next 13 years to get out of Iraq? Because Dick Cheney promised them all that money and they have a "no-bid" contract. Let's hope we don't get all the "security" we are paying for, eh? I've had enough secret prisions and torture from my government, thank you very much.
And, speaking of government waste in a scary way, why is it that Homeland Security needs 1.6 billion bullets? 800,000 of which are hollow points, illegal for millitary use. Hell, the Department of Homeland Security scares me more that Round-Up ready crops also.
Countryman, I don't mean to say that you're evil for growing GMO crops. The way I understand it, they're pretty hard to avoid even if you want to.
From what I'm reading, though, the debate about whether we need them to feed the world is still open. Here's an article from the Independent, a UK paper quoting studies from Kansas & Nebraska that found that GMO soy had a lower yield than conventional. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/exposed-the-great-gm-crops... Unfortunately no links to the studies. Are you having different results?
GMO crops do pose risks of the GMO gene spreading everywhere. Do we know what the results of that will be? Also, I'm not so enthused about allowing GMO crops to continue to be grown even after a judicial order that they're not safe. I agree that farmers should be protected, but why should Monsanto? If the seed is judged unsafe, who then will protect those who eat it, or eat animals who were fed it? Why should it be on the market? Sen. Blunt of MO was instrumental in blocking an amendment that would have allowed the seed company to be held accountable if the product is judged hazardous - and would keep hazardous stuff off the market. I think he's wrong. You guys are the ones who can vote for or against him. I wish I could.
I do agree that the truthout article is a great piece. We're being robbed blind in so many ways that it's sickening.
Regarding tyranny, Chris Hedges, the author & journalist I mentioned before, sued Obama over the provision of the NDAA (National Defense Authorization Act) that allows for detention of American citizens without trial for connections or providing "substantial support" (whatever that is) to organizations that are deemed to be involved with terrorism. A Federal judge put a permanent injunction on the provision, which was a great win, but the Obama administration asked for and was granted an emergency stay of the injunction until their appeal could be decided. That hasn't happened yet, I don't believe - but if it's decided that we can be detained forever on someone's suspicion of something, doesn't that ask for action? I'd rather stand against giving them the power to detain us than sit in my home with my gun waiting 'til they come for me. I don't think Homeland Security would hesitate to get rid of me - and they've got a lot of really deadly toys & now laws.
Your Representative, Emanuel Cleaver, voted against the NDAA because of how vague & broad it was, allowing illegitimate action against dissidents. That was a great thing to do - he deserves support. There should be more like him.
I'm more outraged about this, and about the fact that we're still paying Kellog, Brown & Root for their profiteering and incompetence in Iraq (and will be forever, it seems), and that no one has been prosecuted for the massive fraud leading up to and after the collapse of 2008 than I am about the idea that people should have to pass a background check to buy a gun. And I think the way to address it is to be part of a huge group jumping up and down to show that outrage. Maybe soon there'll be enough of us for a general strike
Countryman I consider you, and the rest of our traditional farmers to be threatened more than the rest of us by GM crops. Not only will you be among the first to feel the brunt of a potential failure of them, but at the same time are losing more, and more of the individual control that is a part of the tradition, and attraction of farming.
The corporations control all facets of chicken farming, in essence owning all the assets from egg, to market ready chickens. Chicken farmers today have been demoted to piece work factory hands on their own soil. They are encroaching more all the time as they attempt to replicate that model in everything from cattle to crops.
It is a big step toward that desired outcome to control seeds in every way. They monopolize seed production, set seed cost, and variety availability. In effect they have taken control of how much profit cash crop farmers may realize from their labors.
You and your fellow farmers deserve, and get my sympathy for continuing your endeavors despite ever more trying circumstances. You folks are at the front end of the same corporate trap that they are springing on us all. There has to be a better solution if the traditional family farm is to survive in at least some semblance of its self.
In the interest of full disclosure I have to say I spent the formative years of my childhood long ago on a farm. I was preceded by six generations of American farmers, three of those within Saline County. Yes, I remain a fellow traveler. ;)
I read an article in the Sunday New York Times Magazine that I found very interesting. I think some of you will also find it interesting.
"Why Rational People Buy Into Conspiracy Theories" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspira...
Ya gotta keep a close eye on those dual citizenship fellers. Some of 'em are even a threat to the contentment and tranquility of small town citizens. ;)
Some, think Obama is to blame for others screw ups!That's bull and you know it! He is the most honest of all he Presidents and you should know it by now! If the others would give him some help things might work out.I don't like some of the change he has accomplished,but he has tried, against great odds!
I don't think you plan on shooting anybody, DO - When I talked about guns, I was responding to the Liberty Crier article you gave the link to that talked about tyranny. I think News Across responded to that as well. I find myself agreeing with a lot in the article (not everything, but a lot) about the sorry state of our democracy, but then the author starts talking about being armed as if it were the answer to tyranny. We've got a Constitution and a system of law that is there for us to use to keep from getting to the point where they're hauling everybody off for political trials - which I agree are already happening. But I'd rather do something about it that doesn't rely on shooting somebody.
I'm not even saying people shouldn't have guns, so I'm not after you, Countryman. I just don't see why it's unAmerican to suggest that a gun buyer should have a background check, since guns are quite dangerous - and that there are some guns that shouldn't be sold on the open market, like rocket launchers or tanks aren't.
I did not invent the connection between guns & GMO. You put your links to the Gary Null GMO movie and the Liberty Crier piece about tyranny and gun ownership in the same post, and implied that they supported one another. The Liberty Crier piece explicitly posits gun ownership as the answer to executive excess & government intrusion. I never talked about anybody shooting anybody. I have repeatedly said that owning a gun doesn't get you points for having done anything to advance your point of view, to oppose tyranny or anything else. It just means you want to have a gun. I don't necessarily think that's bad. I just think the community has a right to require a gun owner to show his/her responsibility to own and operate a piece of potentially lethal technology.
The founders thought you had a right to a musket. I'm OK with that - although you should carry liability insurance.
To be absolutely correct, DO - it was not the same post, it was two subsequent posts an hour apart. They read as continuous since no one answered in between them. And you quoted extensively from the Liberty Crier piece including reference to a disarmed public. That's where the gun-GMO connection came from.
To go back to one of your statements - I will agree that it IS better to be a well-fed free man than a sickened slave. It's always better to be a free man (or woman) than a slave. You're the one who put it "It is better to be a well-fed, armed free man than an unarmed, sickened slave." All of the adjectives don't necessarily go together or prove one another.
By the way, my daughter got in trouble at school for not turning in a kid who showed her a pocket knife he had brought to school. I think that's ridiculous - but it's not why we're 35th among developed countries in educational achievement. The US's recent reluctance to fund public education has a lot more to do with that.
Wow! That sounds awful. I can't believe the DOJ is requiring managers to display Gay Pride stickers - or that Christians can't be managers.
So I looked around a little. You know what was weird - what I found was that a group called DOJ Pride, which is an association of LGBT DOJ employees and their straight friends and allies, sent around a brochure, "LGBT Inclusion at Work: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers" to DOJ managers. It is not a DOJ publication - it came from a group of employees.
It IS a set of tips to managers on how they can create a workplace that is not hostile to LGBT people - ideas about how they feel it would be polite and fair to be treated. Nothing in it is mandatory, it is not an official directive. It's a set of suggestions on how not to be a creep to gay employees.
If, as a DOJ manager, you want to be a rude homophobe - or if you feel your religious disapproval requires you to be less than polite, this brochure can't stop you - it'll just tell you what you're doing that people might find hostile.
This article contains a link where you can download the actual pamphlet: http://thinkprogress.org/tag/justice-department/.
The brochure doesn't require anybody to do anything - it came from an employee association. This is what it says on the front:
THE 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE MANAGERS
A resource from DOJ Pride, the Association of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Employees of the U.S. Department of Justice and Their Allies
One of its suggestions to managers is "...'coming out' as a straight ally". Ways to do that include displaying a Gay Pride sticker. The word "affirm" isn't in the brochure.
Your quote about "Don't judge ..." is under item #7 - "Know how to respond if an employee comes out to you". The item then suggests other ways to respond if someone tells you they're gay, bi or transgendered - such as thanking them for trusting you enough to tell you, etc.
OK - I can't stand it...
countryman - GMOs are NOT 'accelerated hybrid breeding'... it is inserting NON-NATURAL (to that organism) genetic material in order to induce a desired characteristic not naturally, even over time, expressed by that organism such as spider or fish genes in vegetables or elephant genes in fish...
Short version, altho I recommend the actual book:
Once this insanity was let loose, there is NO putting it back, and the unintended consequences are now beginning to be apparent, such as 'superweeds', pollinator destruction, serious food allergies in children, increases in asthma, autoimmune disorders, digestive disorders and cancers.
There is a principle called the 'precautionary principle' that we need to take very seriously but money talks louder than anything else in this country so most Americans are not aware of it or think that the USDA or FDA 'take care of it' - but they are only rubberstamps now for Big Ag and Big Pharma. They even hire the same people and are NOT conducting due diligence in the interest of the American PEOPLE.
NA- thanks! good to see you all again too! :)
Thanks for the letter to Eric Holder, DO. I read it and don't see what's wrong with it. Also don't see what's wrong with the Attorney General being an ally of people who've been seriousluy discriminated against.
The Family Research Council Washington Insider is just wrong. All the stuff you quote is from the same non-mandatory pamphlet, not any Obama memo. frc shows a picture of it. It's the same one.
They're lying to you. They saw the pamphlet. They can tell who it's from if they're not stupid. They're just trying to get you all stirred up over lies. Why trust them?
Oklahoma: Man, you guys are having a bad Weather Season! Hope your still good1
I wonder if everyone is against Human Genome Manipulation is OK? Personally i like the idea!! It makes sense that if they could replace a bad Gene safely it should be done!I know i would give it a shot if i was Terminal! And it seems the same with our food,if they can manipulate things to stop Pest from destroying crop's,why not? I don't know enough about how it's done to have an opinion on it! There has too be a few Frankenstein's in Science too move forward, in my Opinion.If we didn't have science, and a few experts(odd balls) doing the Research,we wouldn't get very far, would we? The Problem is having People doing the research, and Government we can believe? Ha!
Keep us in your thoughts there is a mile wide tornado headed toward us. It is to hit Yukon where my son, and family are in about 7 minutes. They are advising folks in Yukon if you can't get underground, to get the hell out of Yukon. My son has underground in his garage. So do we.
You know, we really didn't need this. :)
I-40 is shutdown.
Political statement: Yukon has no public shelters.
Update (6:36 pm) it is headed directly toward our house. Gee I feel like Wolf Blitzer in Bagdad.
All for now gotta do final prep!
I will try to post later.
Yea News. But now we have most of the Top Administrators of the VA resigning. It don't look good for the attention you receive,when you have a problem! Its not getting any better at our Facility! I have a crippled Shoulder now that can't be fixed,fooling with the out side Medical options in this State,and the VA's red tape! Not being signed up with them at the time! Now it can't be fixed because it needed attention within 30 Days of injury and i couldn't get it! So i have NO muscle left to repair! Great Country we have, with these do nothing Pig's sitting on their ***! Now they say all they can do is Shot's. told them to stick their dam shot's! Good hearing from you New's! Hope all is well!
Crossed fingers here too. Watching on TV - not that that will help.
Thinking about you & yours, OKR.
It is one crazy night, and it is continuing. The first one diminished, and made a right turn. Missed us, and our son in Yukon. More coming my son is back underground. They are popping up all around us.
People were advised to flee if they can't get underground, bad advice, you can't open the gate, and tell sheep to go, they must be herded. Highways eastbound are stalled traffic jams. That is a scary situation. They have set up a crisis center along I-40 to take people to that are injured on the roads.
Sirens are going off sporadically. It is a wild and wooly night.
Tornado threat diminished, at worst we may have some 80 to 90mph straight winds. Lots of rain.*
Thanks News, and HTS for your expressions of concern. It looks like we personally dodged a bullet again.
*3.5 inches @ our house.
Thanks to you too Jo. :)
A mother, and child were killed on I-40 tonight.
I-40 looked like an absolutely terrible place to be. What a terrifying thing. Glad you're OK, Reader. Take care 'til it blows clear through.
An OK highway patrol spokesperson speaking on MSNBC advised that those folks stuck on I-40 should exit their cars and flatten themselves in ditch. Urged people to avoid overpasses--said they become wind tunnels. thinking of you and yours.
OKR - stay safe, friend.
All quiet on the southwestern front. I'm coming down from my adrenalin rush.
Thanks Upsedaisy we old timers appreciate you keeping an eye on us.
NDII (still getting used to that) I'm glad to see you back, and covering things meticulously as no other does.
Time to shut it down for the night if I can. I really appreciate all my friends on these blogs, whether we see eye to eye on things, or not. :)
Oh yes, I got 5 plus inches of rain. My five inch rain gauge overflowed. Lots of small hail, and gusty wind.
Got at least 7 inches of rain, 5 inch gauge overflowed, I went out during a pause, and dumped it. Got 2 more inches overnight. At least I don't have to deal with flooding. We live in the aptly named Artesian Heights. :)
Thanks News. :)
Iraq on verge of civil war, a thousand killed in one month.
I am very thankful that the God fearing, God loving Bush/Cheney regime interceded there to promote regime change, and make things better for the people of Iraq. I wonder if maybe they did not hear correctly what God was saying when they said they were guided by the Lord. Such hypocrites belong in hell if there was such a thing.
News we are still in Iraq loving them to death. Check out this link regarding contractors. http://www.your-poc.com/1st-quarter-fy-2013-iraq-afghanistan-contractor-census/
Check the following link for comment regarding how the grateful Iraqis welcome U. S. visitors. http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_5758.html
I think that most hard right bubble believing conservatives should consider vacationing in Iraq, or Afghanistan to take advantage of all the wonderful things their revered leaders Bush/Cheney have put in place there, and that Obama has sustained. Afghanistan would be a good second choice though we haven't quite done the job there. Perhaps Yemen where they might get to watch U. S. drones? That would be a little like attending a Japanese kite festival.
Perhaps we could get George W. Bush to come out of hiding, and join Barak Obama in a national campaign promoting these wonderful opportunities for U. S. tourists. I know our dollar is not worth much anymore in foreign countries, but I am reasonably confident we would get a special bang for our buck in those three undervalued tourist destinations.
I always enjoy your coffee inspired Sunday morning ruminations SD. Keep them coming. :)
While Bradley Manning, who gave us real footage of one of our helicopters killing children and journalists in our names, sits in jail - and probably will for a while. Can't we direct a little bit of the revenue stream from Drone Wars - You Are There! (let's make it a reality show, too) to his defense? He's a pioneer!
Video of march and rally at Fort Meade, MD to celebrate his heroism: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=04b_1370134203
This rally was actually mentioned the normal news (?!!) http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-06-01/news/bs-md-bradley-manning-rally-201...
Right on DO, and HTS!
Just because I bring ironic humor to these subjects does not mean I am any less concerned than others regarding them.
I consider Bradley Manning a national hero though that opinion is shared by only a significant few here in his home state of Oklahoma.
He is an under appreciated martyr all across our nation. Acknowledgement of that status will be a long time coming, but hopefully that will be the case eventually.
"So why are Obama's drone murders now the responsibility of conservatives? Why aren't liberals owning up to their culpability in the nature of things? How about the log in their eye?" - DO
DO I think that you are making a strategic mistake with divisive comments that alienate those of a different political persuasion who share yor views on GMO's, Bradley Manning, and other subjects.
Turning your question back to you, why do you ignore that there is conservative culpability on each of these issues? You seldom, if ever speak of that, nor even acknowledge it. Are you blind to the fact that these issues are moral issues at their bases, issues that supersede political philosophy?
You surely see that over, and over, including on this very thread that progressives castigate Obama on a regular basis. Come on man, think comity.
DO I am re-posting this because you either missed it, ignored it or refuse to ackowledge it even though it is a relatively fresh post. Please note the theme of Bush, and Obama as co-conspirators.
"I think that most hard right bubble believing conservatives should consider vacationing in Iraq, or Afghanistan to take advantage of all the wonderful things their revered leaders Bush/Cheney have put in place there, and that Obama has sustained. Afghanistan would be a good second choice though we haven't quite done the job there. Perhaps Yemen where they might get to watch U. S. drones? That would be a little like attending a Japanese kite festival.
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jun 1, 2013, at 5:31 PM"
Not certain if you are NanaDot Returned or a NanaDot Also.
Welcome back or welcome as the case may be.
From the Progressive Populist; http://www.populist.com/16.11.hauter.html
"Monsanto, other GM Firms are winning"
College Republicans are the latest to issue warnings for the party's future. It is a real quandary as there is a wide gulf between what young people believe regarding cultural matters, and what the white, uptight, and angry old men that are the party's only solid base believe.
Can they resolve their bubble trouble?
As much as I detest the GOP and their actions over the last few years, part of me wishes they would become viable again when, and if, they quit futzing around with all the social issues and focus on fiscal responsibilities again. I detest their old, elite attitude so much that it is hard for me to wish anything but their total downfall. The problem is that if that happens, there may not be the counter balance that the two party system has worked so well under in the past. But a party that wants to roll back Row v Wade, cut Social Security to the bone and essentially eliminate Medicare, as well as push the Christian religion into our schools and government, deserves to be destroyed. They no longer represent the true fiscal conservatives that many middle and even low income people supported. Yes, they do get the low income ignorant and over religious, and gun fanatic vote, but combine those special interests with the rich who don't want to help by paying enough taxes to help sustain our infrastructure or offer humane social support for the poor, and you still have a large minority of voters, continually growing smaller. And fiscal responsibility does not mean cutting badly needed programs drastically so that the rich don't have to pay higher taxes. This Grover Norquist (and Tea Party) approach will drive the GOP to extinction, and deservedly so. Their only hope is to listen to the College Republicans are trying to tell them... the obvious!
To reach the article on college Republicans posted on NBC news, go to NBCnews.com. Click on politics and the article is on that page. It is worthwhile.
upsedaisy - it's me again, redux, v 2.0, the sequel, etc ;) thanks! (anyone that shows up as 'NanaDot' - it isn't me...)
You are entitled to your opinion DO. I appreciate you, and hold some opinions in common with you. Not that one though. ;)
By the way though I repeat myself, don't you think that the conservatives have missed the boat? You know Iraq, the crash, and all that. Come on, surprise me acknowlege the obvious. Reagan is long dead, you don't have to honor his eleventh commandment; "thou shall not speak ill of any Republican".
News Across, try this link to the college Republican comments.
RT I think the sooner, the better when the Republican Party crashes, and burns. Something better will rise from the ashes. As of now they are nothing but obstructionists who advocate positions that only a minority share, and therefore are not viable options.
Their core voters see the decline of America, and wish for a return to a myth filled past that never was, and even with myths excluded is definitely not a pragmatic response to contemporary problems.
No entity may remain stagnant with an utter disregard for flexibility, in the face of change and survive intact. That is true of businesses, families, religious groups, and others including political parties.
As the aging Republican base draws its desperate last breaths so will the party as we know it today. The Republican Party is an anachronism.
Those folks were not my political choices either DO. Kucinich was my candidate from the get go.
Why do you insist I explore what you present about the Oklahoma City bombing? Can you not be satisfied that I am well aware of plutocratic control of most of the governments, and mainstream media?
Just saying I think you could more efficiently spend your time laying the broad picture of the situation on the majority who are clueless to its presence. One further word of advise; spare them the minute details, make your larger case, and share more detail if asked, or if someone erroneously disputes the case you make.
Good luck to you. :)
"When you guys say "flexibility" you are meaning compromise."
-- Posted by DO on Tue, Jun 4, 2013, at 12:12 AM
No, DO when I say flexibility I mean flexibility; characterized by a ready capability to adapt to new, different, or changing requirements. Not compromise; settlement of differences by arbitration or by consent reached by mutual concessions.
I meant what I said. Twisting others words for the sake of quarrel is another off putting habit of yours that ill serves your purpose. Argue against the precise word that others use. They will tell you soon enough if that is not what they meant. You start a false discussion when you redefine others statements then argue against your construction. It is foolish.
Stick around youngin' you might learn something. ;)
In the election before, I was for Howard Dean. I still think he would have made a great President. He scared the hell out of the powers that be thus their bought, and paid for media went on a mass attack against him. The unhip voting public fell for it just as they expected.
Wow - I don't even know what to say about that video!
Despite our propensity to ignore it, history does inform us.
There are striking parallels between the historical Whig Party, and the contemporary Republican Party. Each of them held/hold only one common aim, opposition to the Democrats. Each of them were/are torn apart by diverse intraparty interests.
Check out any good historical source on the Whig Party and you will see startling parallels to the present day Republican Party.
The Whig Party did not survive. Is that also to be the fate of the Republican Party?
I just found this example of the self destructive quarrel raging within the Republican Party. http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/05/karl-rove-and-the-cotton-conse/
You serve your cause so well DO. Keep it up and you will be more popular, with more readers on these blogs than the words of Jesus on Sunday. That statement is for you DO to illustrate what irony is.
Like some partially trained parrot you seem to only be able derisively squawk irony about everything I write these days. That sentence DO is to illustrate what irony isn't.
If you want to criticize my statements have at it, but try not to expose your lack of focus, or some worse malady at your every attempt.
"The question libertarians just can't answer"
"Obama's Constitution busting trade deal"
The following link provides the most concise narrative detailing our Afghanistan fiasco, and indeed all our greed based errors in the Middle East that I have seen. Plus more. If you are not aware of its content you are crippled by ignorance of the real story. I highly recommend it to every one from News to DO, from Nana to Jo, from HTS to all others who choose to know. http://williamblum.org/aer/read/117
Yup, News. The Adelsons and Kochs of the world have done a fine job of wrapping "wage slavery" up in the flag and selling it to the very folks who experience it the most in modern times.
I have spent a career working in factories in three different states over the last 30 or so years.
Recently I was told by a working fellow, who is a strong supporter of the modern neo-con tea partiers, "those rich folks deserve to be rich, otherwise I wouldn't have a job."
That was one of the saddest comments on modern politics that I have ever personally heard. This poor ******* has been brainwashed into believing that he deserves to be a wage slave and the 1%'ers deserve to reap the rewards of his labors.
He listens to Limbaugh and Beck all day and swallows all their crap (radios are allowed in the workplace, as long as the right thing is playing on it). They have done a fine job of helping the "ruling class" maintain this brainwashing job on the working folks. This fellow will argue with you that "all that liberal socialist crap is bad for the country."
Sad times in American history right now. I think over half the folks in our country have no idea what to think, so there is a never ending stream of big-feeling politicians and gas-bags that are quite willing to tell them what to think. The sad part is that a large portion of the population has apparently lost the ability to think for themselves.
I don't know, maybe they never had that ability in the first place. It does seem that the majority just want to be accepted by their peers and therefore believe whatever everyone else says they believe in order to fit into whatever social order they are born into.
Oh, crap, we've turned into India....
All right, it looks like everyone has demonstrated that when secrecy and repression are being done by our side it's necessary for national security, but when they're done by the other guy it's the destruction of our Constitution and American democracy. It's disgusting either way, but both sides do it in order to run things without us.
What are we going to do about it? How do we get back the power to know what's going on and govern ourselves?
Thanks for the link to the trade deal that you provided, OKR. I think that's one way to take back the power. Your link is about the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which is a huge power grab by multi-national corporations that would basically destroy the ability of communities, states and even national governments to pass restrictions that would keep large business in check. It's being negotiated now, so the United States hasn't signed on yet. Our representatives would have to do that.
It would ban "buy local" provisions. It would allow corporations to sue governments for loss of profits (even hypothetical future profits) "caused" by government restrictions on pollution, treatment of workers, or anything else a community wants to enact. These disputes would be heard by a three-person panel of "trade experts", not the courts established by governments, which are at least a little bit accountable to the people. The "trade experts" would come from the international business community. Whose side do you think they'll be on? It would also enable and encourage the kind of job loss we got with NAFTA (as opposed to the job creation they say it will provide.)
It's being negotiated in secret by representatives of the executive branch, with access allowed to around 600 representatives of various companies, but none to our Congress, or, God forbid, us.
But if we don't allow the re-establishment of fast-track authorization so that the administration can sign this & push it through Congress before anybody knows what's going on, there's a good chance it can be stopped. Congress has to pass fast-track. If we can't get our Representatives and Senators to deny it (fast-track is how we got NAFTA, which allows the same sort of abuses of democracy), that just shows me that those people don't represent us, they represent their large donors - so we've got to get money out of politics in order to get power back. Sen. McCaskill & Rep. Cleaver have both voted for some trade deals, but not others, so both of them might be able to be persuaded. Sen. Blunt has voted for just about every trade deal he had a chance to, plus fast-track authorization. Ask them all to demand a draft of the deal, so that we can see what's being discussed.
There are also national organizations fighting fast-track for the TPP, and the deal itself. Now is the time to do it. When trade deals have been stopped in the past, it has usually been because there was no fast-track, so the American people got a chance to hear what was going on - and they wouldn't stand for it. Here's an article from The Nation magazine about TPP-style abuses (reprinted on another site) http://www.popularresistance.org/horrific-costs-of-free-trade/
Here's a link to Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch action page http://www.exposethetpp.org/
The Sierra Club is also working against this. Here's their action page: http://www.sierraclub.org/trade/trans-pacific-partnership-agreement.aspx
I'm sure either of those groups can provide flyers and films, etc. to anybody who wants to fight this. They'd love to have allies in Saline County. Who knows - there may be folks out there working on this already.
And there are lots of people trying to get a Constitutional amendment that would declare that corporations aren't people and money isn't speech - so that we, the real, actual people can get back into control. I'll put up some links to those groups later. This is long enough already.
Monsanto is a member of the Grocery Manufacturer's Association, which has at least 2 out of the 600 corporate advisors participating in the negotiation of the TPP. Pioneer is on the list under its own name. This is a link to a blog post on the Sojourners magazine site which links to the list of corporate advisors compiled by the author of the post. http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/06/29/insider-list
Good stuff HTS and DO. News thanks for the tip "1830", I'll check it out.
I am going to have to stop passing out my kudos on this blog. my every third post would be a thanks to someone. There are so many good posters participating that nearly everything is a treat to read.
There are enough differences between us fo good dialogue, and we don't have to endure the Ditto Heads who have apparently fled taking their repetitiuos nonsense with them. :)
The debit economy of 1830s New England. http://www.teachushistory.org/detocqueville-visit-united-states/articles/debit-e...
This is really important info you're putting up, DO. Thanks so much.
Snowden will probably be charged with some crime soon. How do people feel about that?
I'll go ahead and declare that I'm very sad and ashamed that we haven't prosecuted people who have violated the basic principles we've founded our society on - we prosecute the people who tell us about the violations.
Talk about missing the point.
"Top Ten Reasons to Legalize Marijuana now"
This bit of commentary reveals the absurdity of this prohibition, and food for thought even for those conservatively opposed.
Now for a little jokiness as Sarah Palin might say. http://markcrispinmiller.com/2013/06/you-mis-overestimated-me/
Look for continued economic stagnation, and slow, from the grass roots up, systemic changes leading to eventual recovery. Will the new economy feature a "Pluralist Commonwealth"?
Interesting stuff for those attempting to read the tea leaves, or whatever to try to figure out what the hell is going on, and what to do about it. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16847-the-next-american-revolution-has-already...
I'm guessing I'll get blasted for this ... But ...
I think what Snowden did will be seen - historically - as a good thing ...
I fear that the revelations he brought forth may cause a bit of an uprising from the extreme right ... My fear is also that many of the folks who are hoarding guns and ammo - some of which might or might not be close acquaintances of mine - do not understand they have no chance to stand against the might of the US military / police machine ... That said - I wish there was some way to get off "the grid" and just watch and see what unfolds ... Anyway you look at it - I don't think it's gonna be good.
gb I think the man is a hero and I hope history sees him that way.
Couldn't agree with you more ...
OMG! Is this a previously non-existent accord between the right, and the left on an issue, any issue? What should we call this breakthrough, Snowden synergism?
It will be interesting to see the reactions of each faction in protest of what the government has done, and Snowden exposed. I can see it now as they band together. A huge mob of people swaying as they sing Kumbaya all one voice, some waving their guns in time and discharging them into the air on the down beat. ;)
No need to point a finger at the gun toters - the other side will be just as involved - singing kumbahya in the cool glow of their computer screens as they send in the drones to quench the rebellion. At least in the first American revolution the arms were basically the same for both sides - you had to look at another man's face before you killed him.
Admit it - this is a no win situation ...
And if you listen closely - you can hear the kumbahya chorus transition slowly to the star wars theme as the drones slice and hum their way through the air space above the good ol' United States.
It's a travesty - and a tragedy.
I have pix of progressives rallying in the rain in support of Snowden, but I don't know how to put them in this post. Thinking about it, I've never seen pix here, just links. Maybe you can't do it.
Is that what you're looking for, DO? Confirmation that progressives think he's a hero? They do.
I'm glad there are issues where lines can be crossed. OK Reader, I got a great laugh out of the kumbayah chorus with 1812 overture percussion. Wonderful!
I don't think this is going to be particularly definitive, though. I think Snowden will just find an embassy to sit in for a while. Do you folks think this will really turn ultra-dramatic?
Apprently some pols think so - cause they've been awful quick to take the NSA (as well as the IRS) to task about these revelations ... But with Washington, as you well know - you never can tell ... They may all turn out against Snowden by the end of the work day ...
Still looking for that cabin on a mountain somewhere in the Rockies where I can watch the whole thing come unraveled.
"OKR, I guess you and 'News' haven't received your talking points yet? Your commentary, so far, is far from revelatory in a substantive sense." -DO
DO it seems I disappoint you on a daily basis, and in your opinion never post a thing with the slightest substance. I don't feel the same about you, but if I did I would just ignore you. Have a great day despite it being muddied by my presence. ;)
Oh yea DO, I will continue to on occasion bring my brand of humor to serious subjects. Fair warning to you my friend. :)
I think that guvment guns blazing as they mow down the Amurkan peeple is a fantasy fed by way too many movies that are short on substance, and long on preposterous outcomes.
Wake up people they are nothing more than mass media brainwashing provided to proles by the plutocracy so that they feel better for a little while about their instinctual, but ignorant restlessness as things go to hell in a hand basket. Clueless folks? I reckon!
Meanwhile we lose battle, after battle to the Corporatocracy's real campaign against ordinary folks. A psychological war so subtle that most don't know it exists.
Why would they want to kill us when instead they can control our emotions, our perceptions, work us to death for peanuts, and even as a last result literally feed us to each other? ;)
Thanks HTS, or should I get with the program and instead say tanks. :)
Ain't gonna splain it DO.
"If it ain't worth explaining, it wasn't worth the time to read it, and much less the time to write it." -DO
Ergo, not worth your time to continue posting about it. LOL
DO Obama is not a liberal. He governs, or attempts to, from a center right position. Not gonna splain that one either. It is true, if you have the stamina check it out yourself. If you don't, hey I don't care. I may lead you to water, but it is up to you to decide whether to drink, or not. :)
"History is a fairy tale written by the victor." --DO
That is usually the case. I recommend Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" which in every sense of the word, is an exceptional history.
"Why did idea of 'guns' and "they want to kill us" enter into the surveillance scandal discussion, OKR? You brought these up. Why? "
The posts of gb today at 7:46 am, 12:55 pm, and 1:01 pm. Pay attention DO, and I won't have to waste my time on remedial stuff for your benefit. LOL
"Also, why the winking happy face after mentioning that the government may "literally feed us to each other"? That's about as creepy as 'news' guillotine deaths and numerous bodies littering the streets."
You are ridiculously squeamish DO. Especially so for someone that knows humans have no bounds in their treatment of fellow humans. Do you not see that we as a species are always a dire threat to each other?
I'm confused here. It seems like everybody in this discussion thinks Snowden is a hero. What are we arguing about?
The war being waged against us by the corporatocracy is partly psychological, but partly legal. They've been working for years to make legal what was never legal. That can be fought in the legislatures and the courts.
Repeal the Patriot Act. The current abuses began to be legal there. These 10 Senators voted against extension in 2010:
Akaka (D-HI), Bingaman (D-NM), Byrd (D-WV), Feingold (D-WI), Harkin (D-IA), Jeffords (I-VT), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Murray (D-WA), Wyden (D-OR).
Inouye (D-HI) didn't vote.
Feingold (D-WI) was the only Senator to vote no on it's original passage in 2001. He also voted against the extension in 2006, but he is no longer in the Senate, having been defeated by a flood of money in 2010.
In the House, 138 Reps voted against extension in 2006; 125 Dems, 13 Repubs and one Independent. 14 didn't vote - 11 Dems and 3 Repubs.
66 Representatives voted against the original Patriot act in 2001. All were Democrats except Bob Ney (R-OH), C.L. Otter (R-ID) Ron Paul (R-TX) and Bernie Sanders (I-VT). 9 didn't vote - 4 Dems & 5 Repubs.
I'm not in love with Dems, but their voting record is way better on this issue. Bernie Sanders, the Independent, is perfect, as always.
As for the MO delegation - Rep. Emanuel Cleaver voted against re-authorization in 2006. I don't think he was in office in 2001. Sen. McCaskill didn't vote on it either time - she wasn't in office. Sen. Roy Blunt voted for it in 2001 & 2006, both times as a Rep. in the House.
Well said HTS!
I wish DO would stop asking niggling off point questions, and making similar declarations regarding nearly every statement made by a couple of us. He apparently enjoys harassing more than discussion.
He came to these blogs by his own declaration gunning for News, and me, and at times Nana Dot. He has never relented.
Thank you for pointing out that there are few conservatives that have done anything up to now about privacy invasion. You would think by their posturing that it is a brand new thang.
I read recently that arguing with someone on the web (or in the comment section?) is like making faces at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder or Helen Keller ... This site make the case very well ...
News posted "I don't believe in stripping the rich of their lives -- just their wealth."
Can you define rich for me News?
You are correct gb, but there is a natural inclination to defend yourself when attacked. It is hard to resist. Thus sometimes I do so, even though I know that provoking a response may well be the prime delight of those with trollish inclinations.
I just want to correct a mistake I made earlier. The current abuses of our right to be free of surveillance in the absence of reasonable cause to suspect that we're violating law began a lot earlier than the Patriot Act. I don't even know when it started - maybe with the first Alien and Sedition legislation. In any case, there's a lot of argument about the Administration's secret interpretation of the Patriot Act in the current controversy about Snowden. That's good reason for me to want it repealed - as if I didn't have others.
In any case - great link about free speech on the Supreme Court grounds, SD. Thanks. I hope the District Court ruling stands.
Thanks for the link to the court opinion SD. Also thank you for your opinion. :)
You are welcome, OKR.
Hey, I also ran across this little gem today.
Just in from the 'Akin-ites.' (Or is that 'Akindians?')
Because, after all, "the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
It appears we have a cult with members that have similar physical characteristics (middle-aged, white, male) and share the same misguided view of biology (clueless).
Is this guy also on the science committee? ;)
"Stop thinking everybody is out to get you and focus on the ones that really are." -DO
Uh huh. Implied that I should follow your lead? ROTFLMAO!
I don't think everyone is out to get me DO. Once again you are using one of your favorite ploys using known facts as the starting point from which to draw inferences or conclusions about something unknown. Troll on old buddy.
I have always said that the last Administration and it's Traitors should have been taken care of then! All it has done is set a precedent for all the other rats too come out of their holes! NO penalty no worry,for them! And the People let it happen! I'm sick of all the Liars,don't try too keep up that much anymore! I can't be interested in People with NO character! And they all have that flaw! This is one sickening America, all at once! It's not the Peoples America anymore!!
"The Secret War"; things have ramped up in the cyber-industrial complex. The potential of this stuff makes drones seem the cyber equivalent of small arms. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/general-keith-alexander-cyberwar/
Caution: Do not read this link if you are prone to paranoid nightmares.
Bernie Sanders take on the Snowden affair. http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=ce874a42-a367-452f-afd0-fe762824... There is a link within the body of his commentary to David Sirota's opinion on the illegality of the programs Snowden exposed that is also very good.
Not sure about paranoid nightmares ... But ABC reported last night that sales of the book "1984" have increased by 3000% since the NSA surveilance program was reported.
No more question about it any longer - Big Brother - we know where thou art ...
"Towards the end of the eighteenth century there were possibly sixty million buffalo on the Plains (Matthiessen:1992 p16); by 1884 the slaughter by hide hunters, encouraged in Government and by the army for the purpose of breaking tribal power and autonomy, was virtually complete, and, according to one contemporary estimate only eighty-five Buffalo were left in 1889 (W.T.Hornaday quoted in Dippie:1982 p.225). The Sioux, along with other Plains tribes, were now consigned to a state of dependence on Government handouts on various reservations - the Government's strategy had been a success." from "philtar/ar/uk"
Gee - an entire people group forced into dependence on the government ... Why does that sound vaguely familiar?
gb - what the author of your quote ignores is that up to 90% of the indigenous populations of the Americas had been decimated by virgin soil pathogens introduced by European exploiters 100 - 200 years before Manifest Destiny... in other words, the indigenous peoples' were ALREADY reduced and destroyed, and what remained were the last fighting vestiges... easy to do if you have Gatlin guns, and they have a few stolen repeaters...
May I suggest the following for those who are just now realizing that the NSA has NEVER slowed down...
Congress will NOT do anything to stop them because there is way too much profit to be made... because the only way to STOP it is to SHUT OFF THE MONEY. Peace is NOT profitable.
NDII - you're right, but it depends on who you're talking about.
Peace IS VERY profitable for individual citizens and taxpayers. It IS NOT profitable for war profiteers.
But war IS VERY profitable for politicians - who take contributions from wealthy weapons producers, and other war profiteers.
The cost of the Iraq war is greater than the current US deficit. That doesn't count Afghanistan.
If citizens voted their own interests - which would get us services instead of weapons ... Well, I'll just say - another world is possible.
"Poll: Americans' faith in Congress lower than all major institutions-ever"
That includes banks, big business, the medical systems, et al.
I'll give the percentage away to save you from having to click the link. It is ten percent. Yes, ten percent. It is no surprise that it is that low. What is surprising is that ten percent have "a great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in Congress.
Just who in this country are those people, that ten percent? A "great deal" or "quite a lot" of cofidence that Congress is doing a good job?
It sure as hell isn't the folks on the bottom be they Tea Partiers, or Occupy Wall Streeters, nor other ordinary folks of any political persuasion between those two. All we do is gripe about Congress.
Congress even gripes about itself, and owns that they are not getting the job done. Of course each faction points fingers at the guys, and gals across the aisle. Except in the Senate where the Democrats mostly just point their fingers at the guys across the aisle being that only four of the Republicans are gals. That's a little like trying to find Waldo, and point him out.
Trying to roundup that elusive ten percent is just not an easy task. It is easy to suspect that a large portion of the of the "one percenters" are in that ten percent, times have never been better for them. Hell, throw the top five percent in that camp. The only problem with that is do you really think that pollsters get to talk to those folks? More likely it would go like this, "I'm sorry Mr. Gallup, Madam is on the Riviera. I am Jeeves, may I take a message for Madam?"
Still scratching my head, I take a different tack, and focus on the pollster's methodology. Hmmm, do you suppose that those random calls sometimes go to facilities that house the insane? How about old age homes? "What sonny? Oh yes, I think Congress is doing a wonderful job! That Everett Dirksen is just the greatest, and that Senator Lyndon Johnson knows how to get things done!"
Well, I think at this point I have covered about twenty percent of that ten percent group who think Congress is doing a good job. It looks like I need help with this. Maybe some of you can come up with who makes up the ten percent of folks that think Congress is doing just peachy.
i'M NOT SAYING IT WOULD BE EASY,BUT WHAT IF EVERYONE ,JUST STOP DOING ANYTHING FOR A MONTH? NO WORK, NO NEGOTIATIONS,NO NOTHING! DO YOU THINK OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD USE THE MILITARY ON USE? AND THEN TRY TO NEGOTIATION WITH TREATS OF DEATH?? I DO!WE MAY GET OUR POWER BACK. DON'T YOU THINK?
Interesting link from the UC Irvine Professor, but VERY long. I haven't finished it yet - but I will.
Anyway - I don't think the American people are going to rise up in revolution any time soon. I think it would be a reach to get a general strike. You're probably right about the people having nothing until they stand up, but there are things that can be pushed along the way.
During the depression, FDR created 12 million jobs - and got a 94% top tax rate - because he had a huge crowd of trade unionists, socialists, communists and other outraged citizens jumping up and down outside his doors. We could use 12 million jobs about now. Maybe a lot more of us need to jump up and down.
President Nixon had to leave office because he was proved to have gone to great lengths to cover up a burglary paid for by his re-election committee. Unfortunately, the treason committed by his campaign when they persuaded the South Vietnamese to walk away from a peace deal that Johnson was about to announce just before the Humphrey-Nixon election didn't come up at the time. It only came to light recently. Thom Hartmann plays a telephone conversation between Sen. Everett Dirkson and Pres. Lyndon Johnson where Dirkson admits that it's treason frequently - but the audio was only released in 2008.
We haven't been doing so well lately - but maybe we can pick it up without having to face the Marines. I hope so.
There are an awful lot of people who'd have a lot of trouble lasting a month. I don't know how people could be persuaded to stop everything for that long.
It might be easier to convince everyone to vote for Bernie Sanders for President - and the Green Party for Congress.
In the '30's there was pretty much nothing in the way of the social safety net. So everybody was pretty close to having absolutely nothing. But instead of revolution, what we got was social security, unemployment insurance, the biggest surge in union membership in US history, high taxes on the rich and a real jobs program, which resulted in lasting public works (swimming pools, roads, bridges, artworks, etc.) across the country.
A general strike might have been better, but it's not what happened - and most people aren't worse off now than they were during the depression.
I'm not saying it can't happen - but people in Egypt were spending around 35% of their incomes on food before the Arab Spring started. Then wheat prices doubled. THAT'S having nothing.
And in Germany, the result of people having nothing was a rise in right-wing populism - Facism - which, of course, had a huge impact on history.
I hope we can make change before we get there.
Thanks for the heads up News. It is good stuff.
If I may return the favor I suggest that you go to the relatively recently released 1940 census which is free online. Go to Saline County and Marshall it shows the incomes of folks who are factory workers, and bank executives, and every job in between. It also shows the value of the homes they owned, or how much rent cost if not homeowners. It will blow your mind how very small the gap between top, and middle, and even the poor was in 1940.
You will find that the annual income of a bank executive was only a few thousand dollars more than that of a good salesman, or highly skilled worker. In most cases around three to four thousand more. The same with housing; most of the housed along Eastwood ran ten to fifteen thousand in value. In nice, but somewhat more modest neighborhoods the houses ran four to five thousand.
It makes wealth, and income distribution at that time quite personal because many of the children, grand children, and great grand children of those folks are still around the place, and are today's workers; the same names, usually the same social niches. The comparitive gap today really strikes home when it is people you know.
Beyond that is the unavoidable recognition of how many people were working public works jobs in the area. It crossed my mind that some of the folks that gripe the most on these local blogs about public works today may owe their very existence, and thus the opportunity to gripe about it, to Roosevelt's public works saving their grand parents, or parents.
Y'all realize that a bunch of young folks tried to ignite the national strike concept already, eh?
And look at how the media and general public reacted to "Occupy Wall Street."
I am skeptical that in apathetic, brainwashed America, anything will stop the "Big Brother" future of corporatocracy and government enforced wage slavery that awaits.
Our best hope is that we can actually make ethcial, logical leadership, 'by the people, for the people,' popular somehow. What are the odds of that?
Personally, I'll most likely only be around for a few more decades. Beyond that I hope to have my decendants on a path to the top of said corporatocracy.
countryman - the corporatocracy is going to gut the earth n kill everyone n everything on it before they're satisfied that they got it all... and I don't think the Earth is gonna last that long...
HTS - another world is always possible, but the probability is getting WAAAAAY out there on the tail-end... Besides, all things have to end to make room before something else begins. Civilizations, especially empires, ALWAYS collapse, some sooner, some later, but what goes up... The question is - will it be soon enough to save the Earth, without whom we have nothing?
news - there is a pattern...;)
What they don't recognize, and what the gungho psychopaths in the NSA and Pentagon don't recognize, is that this entire generation of computer geeks, nerds, and hackers were raised, not on psuedo-patriot blind obedience, but on open architecture, the creative commons, open-source software, and "Tell me 'no' and watch..." And they are very serious about that... They are serious about 'transparency'... from Aaron Schwartz, to Bradley Manning, and Snowden, to the White Hat Hackers and Anonymous... They understand clearly that an open society is the only free society, that secrets fester and rot, that corruption behind closed architecture and closed doors - like Diebold - are threats to honest communication and democracy. They understand very clearly the difference between personal privacy and 'secrets' - but if they merge and become public lies, all bets are off. These are the kids that were raised on the pulpit pounding political rhetoric of 'transparency' and 'accountability' - and Fox's eternal squawk that 'THEY LIE!'... These are the kids that were raised on the MIC idealism - and took it to heart. Be careful what you wish for...
I think you're all absolutely right that what we need is an overhaul of the whole system. Anybody who lived through 2008 and thinks that what we need to do is go back to the capitalist economy of 2007 (or even of 2005) has amnesia (or was dead, or something). I think the Republican are completely nuts - and I don't trust the Democrats, with a few exceptions. Bernie Sanders is the only Independent we've got in Congress and he's almost always right - but there's only one of him. He can't pass anything by himself.
The reason I say that another world is possible is that I don't think the American people are going to demand a new economic system this weekend. And I don't think they're ready for a general strike at the moment either. I mean, not going to work means not getting a paycheck, which means not paying your rent or being able to buy food, which means fighting eviction on an empty stomach. I don't think there are millions ready to do that in June. But I'm not ready to accept that there's nothing I can do - especially since, historically, that has been a way to get people to sit still for being ripped off and destroyed. So that means figuring out what else will move the ball.
I'm terrified about climate change and the fact that corporate rule in the capitalist system we've got makes it almost inevitable.
The question is: What can I do about it today, or tomorrow - or next week, or even next year? I want to say here that I thought a lot of you guys - news, JO, Oklahoma, and NDII (especially your last comment - I was writing a reply to litlmissme when I read yours and found mine unnecessary) had great things to say about public assistance on the general Speak Out. I'm really glad those points got made more publicly than here.
But, you know, the Civil Rights movement didn't spring full-grown from the head of Zeus when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus. Black people had been risking their lives in the south going to meetings and building the NAACP for years in order to be ready for that moment.
I grew up in Marshall, but moved away. The main reason I started to read - and was moved to join - this conversation was that I don't understand what happened in MO since Adlai Stevenson beat Dwight Eisenhower ... TWICE! - Since Stuart Symington stood up strongly to Joe McCarthy and his anti-communist witchhunt. I don't understand why people who think they are traditionalists (because they buy the conservative line and tell everybody what Christians they are) have forgotten what their grandparents knew - that John D. Rockefeller was the devil with his oil and railroad monopolies, and that FDR and his socialist policies saved their bacon!
Since I knew MO, and even Saline County, had been moving to the right for a long time, I was astonished to find a community of people here who know a lot of the same news and read a lot of the same sources as I do. I mean, even DO, whose libertarianism & mistrust of liberals spark a lot of argument, seems to be as convinced as anyone else that the multi-national corporations are out to rule the world. Where are all the people who threw Ike Skelton out of offfice (no paragon, I might add) in favor of Vicky Hartzler? I'm completely curious as to what the Hartzler voters might be thinking, since I don't get it at all. What happened to you, Ray?
I'm guessing that a lot of it is misinformation (a perfectly nice woman from my mother's church told me one day that we all had to be vigilant because we were in danger of having the US ruled by Sharia law, for example - ?!!!), but they're not here to be argued with. How do we get to them? I'll argue with you a little here, news - I think Occupy was extremely effective in moving the discussion away from deficit and onto economic inequality; and gaining huge numbers of hearts and minds while doing it. "We Are the 99%" is really compelling to a lot of people.
But I guess I still end up with the question: what can we do right now, besides arguing the fine points and commiserating as we wait until America is in flames and everybody sees the light?
I'm not trying to say we shouldn't discuss - only trying to pick everybody's brain for things that can be done now.
That said, I want to address a couple of your points:
(2) What's your distinction between a general strike and a national strike?
(3) Rosa Parks joined the NAACP in 1943 and the Rev. Martin Luther King was on its Executive Committee during the '50's (don't know when he joined) I don't think Parks made any waves the NAACP wasn't happy with. She was advisor to the local Youth Council when she got arrested for keeping her seat. They (the NAACP) were instrumental in getting the bus stike going. I just wanted to recognize all the dangerous work that was done in the prior decades to set the stage for it.
Co-operatives are a great step forward - and Mondragon is a wonderful example. It's now involved in the effort to open a huge green laundry in Pittsburgh that is a worker co-op http://beavercountyblue.org/2013/05/19/clean-and-green-industrial-laundry-comes-.... Here's a recent interview with Gar Alperovitz, a big co-op advocate http://www.garalperovitz.com/2013/06/the-next-american-revolution-has-already-be.... I've heard him talk about big initiatives in Ohio in cooperatives, but can't find a good link.
The only coop I can find in MO is a bakery in St. Louis http://www.blackbearbakery.org/, but the USDA lists something called Glasgow Cooperative, Inc. as having operated since 1923. I can't find any listing of it currently outside the USDA reference, though. Does anybody know anything about it?
You're right - worker coops are an excellent way to move out of capitalism as we know it. I'm also really excited about public banking. If we put our tax money in a public bank we'd hold it away from the commercial banking thieves - and we'd be able to fund projects that would benefit us at preferential interest that we'd be paying to ourselves. Sounds a lot better than commercial development loans. We could also run government benefit cards through such a bank instead of paying the financial sector to administer them. There are a bunch of videos of speeches & panels from the 2013 national conference of the Public Banking Institute here: http://www.publicbankinginamerica.org/videos.htm. North Dakota has a public bank & 20 states have people working on starting them. Unfortunately I don't know of anything going on in MO. Just a note - the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership that is being negotiated in secret now, would make such banks illegal and an infringement of trade in the financial sector. I've already posted links about that, but would be happy to put them up again.
Right after I posted my previous comment, I realized that I should have added this: You guys are incredibly well informed. Richard Wolff, rawstory, truthout, general strikes - and I think I even saw a comment a long time ago about public banking? Wow! I'm impressed. This is not the Marshall I remember.
Thanks for posting this news. Another great way to appreciate Marshall's music legacy is to attend the 2014 Bob James Jazz Festival and see Mr. James perform in person!
Details will be posted soon at www.bobjamesjazzfest.org
HTS I have posted two, or three times in the past about the State Bank of North Dakota. One of those times I provided a link to a "Mother Jones" article regarding the bank. I thought it was an excellent article so here is the link again in case anyone missed it who would like to read it. It is a relatively short article, but it never the less presents some good points. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%e2%80%99s-only-state-owned-ba...
HTS - one thing to note is that most of the posters you mentioned are not IN Marshall anymore either... even Bob James...
I, too, am terrified of climate change and the insane, metastatic, cancerous nature of the capitalism that is currently running rampant across the planet. I fear that the 0.0001% will not be satisfied until they have "extracted" and killed everyone and everything on the planet.
I fear that Edward Bernays' malicious and vicious manipulation of emotions has gone SOOOOO far that -in this country at least - it may not be reversible. We are now looking at 4 generations steeped in the poison of consumeristic 'greed is good' and it is showing up as serious repercussions. We have become so brainwashed that we think 'freedom' means choosing between hundreds of equally useless 'items' on store shelves... And those who don't have the most are shamed and humiliated - and in a massive 'Stockholm syndrome' replay, they think if they can just 'get more like THEM', then their reward is that THEY can be the 'mean' ones... What the &*(( kind of a nation have we created??
I don't know the answers, either. I try to seek those who are trying different approaches, seeking alternatives, but mostly they are elsewhere. Mostly, not all - but certainly there is enormous social pressure here to 'go along to get along' - and the article above certainly describes the situation well.
NDII re: yours of 9:49 pm, yes, yes, and YES! Well said. :)
In my opinion Marshall for all its good points, and there are many, remains a socially conservative community that doesn't take to ideas, and actions that are not mainstream, and well worn. Most of the folks seem comfortable going about their way, going along to get along, and not making waves. It was so when I lived there nearly fifty years ago, and that has not changed.
In other words, it is a typical midwestern small town, clinging to its traditions even more desperately because of unwanted changes that are rapidly occurring.
I love the place, and its people, but it would drive me nuts to live there.
By the way ND2 that was a spot on link that you provided. :)
We do! Marshall Cultural Council was born in August 2010 with its first mission to create the Bob James Jazz Festival. It's overall mission is to promote the arts in Marshall and Marshall in the arts. MCC is also the primary sponsor (with numerous partners!) of the year-long Battle of Marshall 150th Anniversary Commemoration.
News - what OKR said ;) Everybody's hometown 'feels like home' when they're visiting :D))
Small towns tend to be exclusionary, highly stratified, and generally very conservative... when 15% of the population lives on 70% of the landbase, isolation is an underlying issue that exacerbates dogmatism - 'we've always done it that way'...
Nowadays, thru Eric's editorial leadership, the regular bloggers' 'coalition', and sad prior experience, the local 'gossip' component is mostly gone. It was not always so... when this blog first started, it got pretty ugly sometimes...
And Amen to all of that you said ND2. :)
I might add that though I am looking at it from afar; the experience of Eric's family in Marshall is also typical of what occurs when progressive newbies move in to a stratified small town. I have a sense that the conclusion to that experience will not be to my liking. I hope I am wrong.
By the way, I am not attempting to spark rumors, and I have absolutely no inside information. All I know is what I see in the paper, and I may be way off base.
I'm sure going to miss Marshall and all my friends (and the music!) but I plan to keep in touch online and will continue working with Marshall Cultural Council from afar.
Thanks for the great links to Bob James and public banking and the alternet book review and the coop movement in Cleveland - and the info about strikes. Wonderful stuff.
I fully agree that Marshall is amazing - and I never wanted to dis it. I've known about Bob James for a long time, of course, and been really proud of his accomplishments - and although he's a personal genius, Marshall had a lot to do with him making it. I mean, he came out of the musical instruction of the town, which is (or was - I hope it's still as good) incredibly advanced, especially for a town of its size. Hat tip to Harold Lickey here, who was in many ways responsible for that excellence. Marshall is the smallest town in the country to sustain a Philharmonic Orchestra, the Municipal Band provides a unique opportunity for band members and listeners alike (my first job was as a working musician - absolutely unbelievable! The pay was miniscule, but it existed. What a powerful symbol! And the way people applauded by honking their car horns out at the old band shell was completely delightful.) None of that would have happened without the commitment of the Town of Marshall to supporting it.
The three best teachers I ever had taught in the Marshall Public School system. The public, Olympic pool open to everybody at really low rates was something unlike anything that big, famous places had. And the way that a lot of the community lived side by side and knew each other was totally unlike the experience of separated community that people from bigger places got. I lived across the street from my Doctor, not because I was in the same economic class, but because the neighborhoods were mixed. That's truly unusual. It certainly wasn't perfect - there was still a lot of stratification, especially along racial lines - but it was way different than what my college friends from cities and suburbs across the country had grown up with.
I just expected this political blog to include a lot more of the isolation and conservatism that you described, NDII. I know I ran into a lot of that growing up. That's what I was talking about in the Marshall I remembered.
Sorry Eric. You guys will land on your feet wiser for the experience, and even better prepared to continue making a difference. Good luck to the both of you. :)
Eric and Amy will be sorely missed.
I had a feeling when Amy left the library that it was just a matter of time.
I hope that someone steps in to fill their shoes on the community level.
I am sure that the paper will find a worthy editor, but the cultural council and the music may suffer. Also, Eric is so involved in other things, such as the Battle of Marshall reinactment; which may not have blasted off without his guidance.
Yes, you two will be missed.
Oh my! I hardly got on here and you're leaving. I didn't really have much chance to get to know you, but it sounds like you'll be truly missed.
I'm so sorry this happened.
About a quarter of an inch from the extreme left side of the scale News. No surprise to me, nor I think to anyone else that reads here. :)
How about you?
Just as I would have guessed.
Overall moderate rep.
On economic Issues just a tad farther to the right
On Social Issues just to the left of the moderate Dem.
Left of center 1/3 on social issues. Right of center a tad when it comes to economics, and balanced budget.
The only things that I consider 'hands off' economically are Medicare and Social Security, which would both be fine if they weren't compromised so much by the Congress.
Well said SD. I agree with News that you put your finger on the problem, or to say it another way poked your finger in the eye of the far too many working stiffs who refuse to see that is exactly what is happening. :)
Shoats, tummy troubles, and GMOs. Countryman Smart Dog you might be interested in this new study financed by the Australian government. Nothing definitive, but it does highlight the need for meticulous additional research.
Just about 1/2 inch from the left end... no big surprise here either. ;)
SD - hit the nail on the head with a BIG framing hammer!! :D
news - economic theory is all fine, well and good except for one minor detail... Under current [lack of] financial regulation, it is simply more profitable for the hedge-fund class to swirl money around at the top without producing a bloody thing except more profits for themselves.
To top that off, we have a Congress that is handing corporations and the war machine all of our tax money and all of our laws on the lie that it will 'stimulate' jobs, which is utter BS or we would be flooded with jobs instead of the MO River, while retired seniors, disabled people and children literally starve. ALEC, which is heavily entrenched in the MO legislature, too, btw, has templated laws to eliminate paid overtime, eliminate paid sick leave, eliminate the minimum wage, etc
These actions are in total defiance of any shred of actual evidence or regard for consequences. I do remember your 'third-class coach' theory, but it seems awfully abstract and remote from the pillage-and-plunder activities currently underway...
With SD, I would have to say that we the WORKING CLASSES of American People need to wake up to the reality that being a 'good person with good intentions' (our personally favorite rep) is NOT ENOUGH!! And I don't care what color of ink is in their pen... the REAL question should be 'was it good for the families of ALL American people?' - and I guarantee that until EVERY woman's children are fed, clothed, educated, adequately housed, with medical care, and stable, welcoming communities, I am not 'secure', nor do I deserve to be.
This is a good thread to broadcast, and give kudos to the W. B. Young Company. They recently developed a plan to transfer ownership to its forty employees. Marshall is progressive!
I knew the President when "Bub" was a young guy. He was a good guy back then, and it appears that he remains one.
"third, to provide a tool to motivate, retain and attract employees"
That does insinuate that new employees will be able to buy in to the company. Hopefully that is the case.
The thought occurs to me that things have gotten so bad that even the street corner beggars, ubiquitous in major cities, have had to take second jobs as dumpster divers. ;)
I hope DO hasn't been snatched up by the thought police.
He worked hard to raise the level of our preexistent paranoia another notch in each of us. If he doesn't return what a brilliant exit to underscore his message. POOF! Gone!
The thought occurs to me that zealots have no patience with humor. I think it is tragicomic when such zealous folk think humor a waste of time, because there is too much important work to be done.
Though they can unintentionally produce comedy in the form of farce they can never enjoy it themselves. God rest Inspector Clouseau, and all his ilk.
OKR - I saw your article posted on the front page... also saw this:
criminy - we're being taken over by the American Taliban...
I don't know WB Young's deal and it may be limited, but the step they've taken is pretty impressive. They probably could have sold out to some large out-of-state corporation for a pretty penny. Instead, the business will remain Marshall owned, and Marshall-centered. That's not nothing. I'd love to thank them - but don't really know how.
And it's true - where did you go, DO? We miss you.
Great. The Republicans hate food stamps in general and vote NO. The Democrats hate cuts to food stamps and vote NO.
Meanwhile the 20% of this bill that actually goes to farm programs is stuck going nowhere.
And our idiot politicians can't seem to do anything that makes sense, like separate the two programs and vote on them individually.
Be prepared for most of your food products to come from outside the country where ag products are heavily subsidized, folks, because it's cheaper for Con-Agra and ADM.
Why, oh why, do we have to "bundle" farm program funding with food stamp funding? I'll admit, they are both "entitlement programs," but the funds go in two entirely different directions.
I reckon it's ok for the government to help every other **** industry; banking, auto, oil, wind and solar, defense, aircraft, et al......
Yet, apparently it's politically incorrect these days to support farm subsidy programs, eh?
Another round of ".....you might be living in a country run by idiots...." I reckon.
For those of you not familiar with the above quote, I give you Junius P. Long....
I'm pretty moderate, but have to admit his comments made me think a bit. If nothing else the staunch liberals might gain a little insight on how the other side thinks by reading Junius's post.
SD - yup - that's a problem... we've had LOTS of arguments here on that whole "give away all you have..." thing, to no avail...
countryman - went to the 'jenius' site... what was most interesting were the comments... since virtually everyone of his statements were, in fact, flat wrong. Effective emotional sound-bites, but still flat wrong.
One of our favorites is Yellow Tail. It is a great wine bargain. :)
Good GRIEF! Why has the predominant menthod of social research become "I/my cousin/whoever saw it at WalMart"?!?!? And why is it always the ONE item that somebody else 'thinks' is 'extravagant'? First, who made Louie Gohmert the Food Police? How many **MILLIONS** of people did he just 'happen' to miss who only bought mac-n-cheese, or two pounds of spaghetti and one can of sauce??? Second, it's patently idiotic to base social policy on childish whining ("Janie got one and I DIDN'T"). Third, the average MONTHLY food assistance is about $133 - which is not extravagant by any means and certainly doesn't allow for all that nonsense that they preach about 5 servings of fruit and vegetables a day. And finally, who does Gohmert get his money from: oil/gas, banking, real estate, and 36% from outside of Texas...
Why should he care? He's got TOTAL, 100% public assistance, medical care, retirement, travel, paycheck...
Frond stamp benefits should be cut to where the only things that can be purchased are fruit, veggies, meat, milk, eggs, and bread. Kinda like WIC
Do you reckon News that AoG may have meant cutting back on food items that are less nourishing, and thus not as healthy? Maybe that was what was meant to be said, as opposed to cutting back the funding? That is the gist of how I interpeted it.
A lot of people on welfare are ignorant in regard to nutritional matters, and victims of culturally based preference for unhealthy foods. For that matter most of us are.
I see nothing anti-poor folks about poor food choices being prohibited on a welfare card. It might go a long way toward helping them to form better habits for the rest of their lives. We tend to learn to like what we eat regularly. Then too, their kids will start life liking better foods.
Actually I think that is an idea worth exploration. I also think that the Department of Agriculture, Con-Ag, and everyone else in the business of pushing junk foods in the stores would raise hell.
On the other hand if AoG actually meant cut the funding I would be interested in hearing his/her reasons.
Just off the top of my head; why couldn't we allow the food card to be used at local farmers market? The locavor movement is a good thing, and it would be a positive thing to allow the good folks that happen to be poverty stricken participate in the trend.
I would prefer that my tax dollars were used in manner that is environmentally friendly, and to boost the demand by practical application of buying locally produced items by all segments of our society.
Why couldn't we computer correlate the amount of monthly purchases on the food card to the food pyramid, that is allow proportional purchase slanted toward the bottom of the pyramid, and less at the top?
What else would work?
Thanks AoG for bringing up the topic. :)
No rice or pasta? I think it's great to make sure people have to buy healthy food - the problem is that if that's all you can buy, your SNAP allotment won't go very far. The cheapest things to buy are less nutritious and processed, usually with lots of sugar & salt. The Congressional staffer who is so proud of himself for coming in under the SNAP amount, which he says he lived on for a week, included no fresh vegetables or fruit - in fact his only vegetables and fruits were pasta sauce and applesauce. You won't die in a week, but long term you'll end up obese, with diabetes. This article includes a list of what this staffer bought: http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/19/gop-staffer-claims-to-live-on-food-stamps-with... At first it seemed sort of reasonable, but then I started to think about what kind of meals it meant. Lots of cereal & peanut butter & jelly. Rice and beans the rest of the time. No green vegetables at all. Your suggestion may be prompted partly by this guy's shopping list - but I don't know if you can fill bellies without sugary cereal on a SNAP budget.
A lot of people also live in food deserts, where there aren't any stores that carry nutritious food. Not usually a problem in places like Marshall, unless you don't have a car (which means you've got problems in all directions), but it's relevant in other places.
Sorry, I wrote that before I saw your comments, OKR. I think it would be great for people to be required to use tax dollars for nutritious food - and letting it be farmers market produce would be a big positive step - but current pricing structures would mean empty bellies. The stuff that's cheap & filling is the stuff that sends the dollars to the food processors, not the food growers. Being able to buy from local green markets would help a lot - and there are probably a lot of other things that could be done. They used to have a lot of helpful things out of the state University extension program - education about healthy food made cheaply, or free vegetable seed, etc. Do we fund that kind of thing any more? Or just subsidies that end up in the hands of politically influential processors?
Such as I suggested is not an abridgement of anyone's constitutional rights under the fourteenth amendment.
First of all we already tell folks what they can, or can't buy on welfare cards. We have also changed that menu from time to time. I reckon if it was a meaningful abridgement of rights to do so, somebody would have had at it in the courts long ago. Oh yes the famous I want my Twinkies and it is my constitutional right to insist you tax payers buy them for me. Not!
Further, no one is telling anyone what they can, or can't eat. It is astounding that you would think otherwise. We are saying (under the programs I mentioned) we aren't going to pay for junk food. By your reasoning we would be bound to pay for anything they wanted to eat that anyone else eats. Do you really believe that failure to do so is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause? You may wish to consider rethinking that opinion.
By the way that is all I have to say on the subject, and I refuse to get into another long running hair slitting episode with you. I have had enough of that as it serves no good purpose. :)
HTS I agree, it would cost more to give the poor an opportunity to eat decent food. Sometimes there is a short term cost to assure long term gain.
It has been proven for a long time that poor diet effects every aspect of a child's life, including intelligence, and emotional well being.
Who knows, if the very poor begin eating healthy foods that those higher on the social scale chose to eschew it might help level the playing field.
Typo alert; splitting, not slitting. Thankfully in our ardor to defend our respective positions we have confined ourselves to splitting (hairs) not slitting (throats). ;)
More on the "food stamp" program from "The Nation". http://www.thenation.com/blog/174845/what-congress-and-media-are-missing-food-st...
A while back we were discussing Poor Houses on the Speak Out blog. While drifting around the internet tonight I found a 1904 online book that reported on the conditions, etc. of the poor farms in every county. It may be worth a look to the historically curious.
The Saline County poor farm, or "County Home" of 1903 was in Marshall. It had 43 residents. The Superintendent was Conrad Oser.
Thanks for the link News. I don't believe it indicates anywhere that individual welfare beneficiaries have a right to control either the scope, or the specific content of the benefit. They are bound to accept it as is, after it is legislated, executed, and then administered by the government for the general benefit of all the recipients.
News, I read the article from Justia.com (long, I will agree) but if it's unconstitutional to place restrictions on benefits without due process, why isn't it unconstitutional to make massive cuts to the program (or end it entirely) - which would result in lots of people being denied the benefit without due process?
Since I can't believe that argument would fly, I don't buy the other, either. The due process argument seems to me to apply to banning an individual from a benefit, not changing the terms of the benefit for everyone. The article also talks a lot about whether the loss of a benefit constitutes "grievous harm" as a standard for applying stricter due process requirements. It would be tough to make the argument that being required to buy oatmeal rather than Cap'n Crunch constitutes "grievous harm".
I think it's a good idea to give tax money for buying healthy food items - and include local farmers markets. I just don't think the current Congress would spend the money required to keep the new purchase rules from resulting in more hunger. They're trying make massive cuts to the program now. I also think that huge food processing companies would throw lots of money & influence into opposing the changes. Not to say the fight shouldn't be made - that's just where I think it would be.
You're missing my point, news. I don't want to cut this program. What I DO think is a good idea is changing the categories of what can be bought with a government benefit. I'd rather fund nutritious food than Cap'n Crunch (for example) with my taxes. I think it would bring more social benefit - to taxpayers and recipients alike. And I don't think somebody's constitutional right to buy sugar cereal rather than broccoli is really the problem. I think Pepsico's desire to sell Cap'n Crunch will fund the argument that anybody's constitutional right to buy sugar is even involved - even though Pepsico owns both Cap'n Crunch & Quaker Oats. Pepsico makes much more money on Cap'n Crunch than it does on oatmeal.
Local farmers markets should be able to take SNAP benefits. Right now, I don't think they can. But local farmers have no influence compared to large food processing companies - and I don't think local farmers are big on doing the paperwork that they would have to do to get on the rolls of who can take a SNAP card. I want farmers to be able to take that SNAP card, and it's completely infuriating that the farmer's desire not to be involved with the bureaucratic structure of getting qualified to take benefits (along with having to register with the government, etc.) will keep a lot of people from becoming certified vendors.
It will also end up being a fight with Pepsico - along with Kellogg's, General Foods (Post cereals) and probably Kraft Foods along with whoever owns it - and I don't know who else. Right now, they've got the situation set so that it's easier to spend a government benefit on their high-margin processed junk than it is to use the benefit on food that's actually good for you.
You also know that those big food processing companies are the ones that control the discussion about the issue because they can fund publicity. The idea that giving a benefit for healthy food is unconstitutional just plays into their interests.
When I was young I worked at a temp agency in New York. One of my assignments was a publicity company. I was astonished to learn how much of what showed up in magazines was actually written by publicity firms paid by somebody who wanted a a particular point of view to be presented as if it was something a journalist found out. This was many years ago. I'm sure it's much worse now.
Why hasn't the restriction to buying only food and not other grocery items on a SNAP card - or a WIC card - not ended up in court?
Barresi is typical of our state officials right up to, and including our governor Mary Fallin.
Thanks for posting here regarding my exposure of the Con's response to dramatic needs of the people of Oklahoma.
Barresi deserves every moment of shame that can be afforded her in every forum available for as long as is possible News. If you had posted your response on the original Speak Out it would have relegated her shame to the back page of Speak Out, and fewer would have seen her callous response. I know you are aware of that concept so thanks for that.
LOL now that I have exposed the strategy, watch the Cons start putting up unrelated blather to get exposure of their egregiousness off the front page.
HTS - EBT cards CAN be used at farmers' markets IF the FM has the machine, and IF the state has passed thru the funding to the program...
Unfortunately, FM food is usually excellent quality but unprocessed and federally/state unsubsidized like Big Ag, so it actually costs what it costs to produce ... doesn't go as far as cheap subsidized calories. My biggest problem with farmers' markets is that they tend to be inhabited by the local 'upper-crust' and few in poverty can afford them...
Hoodoo? Voodoo! "Voodoo economics" is what David Stockman, President Reagan's economic adviser in a moment of clarity, and with his conscience tweeked called "trickle down" economics. The yellow color of "trickle down" is a far different hue than the color of a yellow dog. ;)
Ironically the comment you just made with tongue in cheek regarding that worthless b*st*rd of economic familia will be thrown back at you nearly verbatim by numbskulls, and the nefarious citing it as gospel. You said it so much better than they can that they will take it as their own.
"My biggest problem with farmers' markets is that they tend to be inhabited by the local 'upper-crust' and few in poverty can afford them..." -NDII
It is the same here. The reflection from the whiteness of the masses of customers at our large OKC farmer's market is almost blinding. On sunny days I am compelled to wear sun glasses. ;)
You got that right News!
You guys are going to love this one. :)
NDII, thanks for the info that SNAP can be used at Farmers Markets. It's true that they tend to be upscale & expensive. I was talking more about the folks that bring produce to the old Walmart parking lot in Marshall, for example. A lot more kinds of people shop there - but those farmers are pretty informal. I don't know if they have the machines to process the benefits.
In any case, even though I do think you could give a benefit that is targeted (but I'm not going to become a lawyer to argue this point), changing the rules to require it isn't a fight I'm probably going to bring. For one thing, it addresses the problem as if it's the fault of the recipient - which I think drives the discussion in the wrong direction. For another, it's a very specific fight - winning it would only move the ball in a very small way.
I'm happy to move to discussing NSA abuses.
People: I have come to the conclusion our Government, & we the people have been so Paranoid, since 911 they,(the Government)can tell us anything about our Security and get away with it. Or change the Law to fit what they want to do too the People! Homeland Security,in my opinion,is used to control any kind of decent by the people! In my opinion, and will get worse! Hell, if this is the case what good is the Law?
Good on a roll and rant SD. :)
I just read that article News before I signed on. It is interesting that in addition to the Tea Party, 9/12, and Patriot groups, Progressives were also subjected to the "be on the lookout" list.
This may be additional verification that the so called centrist government, better called the corporate owned government, is after everybody that they believe will not kow tow in every way to corporatist agenda.
For instance radical right, and radical left despise government spying. Those closer to the middle don't mind the meddling as much. If they can eliminate influence by outliers they can more easily herd the middle masses in the direction they want them to go.
Oops, I read another story about it on NBC. http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/24/19119331-irs-chief-reveals-addit...
I'm going to your link now to see if is parallel.
From the Raw Story link provided by News; "Following the report, Republicans have claimed the IRS was intentionally targeting the enemies of President Barack Obama." I can't say with certainty that they got that altogether wrong, but they certainly missed the obvious point that our executive, and legislative branches of government don't like anybody left, or right that is not swept away by the corporate juggernaught's entire agenda. It doesn't matter whether it is Progressive, or Tea Party, if you don't go along, you don't get along.
What is really so stupid about the whole IRS gig is that it was a Republican, Bush-era toadie who was apparently trying to save her political derriere - uh, career.
Or it just might have been the well-publicized fact that a LOT of the "Tea Party" and "Patriot" groups WERE funded by the Koch Brothers and Karl Rove and Dick Armey and had absolutely NO intention of actually doing any'social welfare' at all... as EVIDENCED by the fact that NONE of those "groups" actually spent more than 1-3% of their funding on "social good" at all...
All the fracus couldn't POSSIBLY have been because those groups were ACTUALLY political action groups who were ripping off the taxpayers... could it?
Please note that the SAME five justices that voted FOR Citizens' United, or to put corporations ahead of people, ALSO voted to take the right to vote AWAY from REAL PEOPLE...
hey look! the Supreme Court got something right for once
AoG are we to assume you are referring to the overturning of DOMA? :)
Yes Oklahoma, that is what I was referring to.
Did any others of you see Vicki Hartzler on PBS a few minutes ago? ROTFLMAO
She was defending the con position regarding SCOTUS overturning DOMA.
In twenty years if that bit of hers is seen society will view her with the same abhorrence that governors in Dixie were twenty years after the other half of their citizens were finally free. Her grand children will be ashamed of her.
Here is a link to Ms. Hartzler's statement. She starts speaking at the 6:26 mark. I recommend the whole twelve minutes of the segment.
What do you think of her presentation? I thought she appeared tense, defensive, and was an obedient minion reciting the cant of the Right.
LOTS of rapid eye blinking. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june13/scotus2_06-27.html
Just clicked the link you provided to the "documentary" News. LOL Naw, that was not her problem, though it could be the solution to her problem. She appeared very uptight, and nervous. ;)
Thank you News.
I agree with your analysis. Thus they now confine their participation to daily voting "NO" on every poll presented on the front online page.
Is there even an ember that still glows within them? ;)
My comment in response to yours was harsh, and there is more to it than what you said with which I concurred. It does not explain the loss on these blogs of the views of some of those of the center, and of the left.
It is also likely that those on the right share certain concerns, and reactions to manner of presentation of content as those of all political, and philosophical stripes.
One of the several meanings of my poem alluded to that. As we grow older our passions may diminish, and thus our interest in, among other things, entering the fray; especially when that fray, as it does at times becomes a bit nasty.
C'mon, you guys.
The situation is that the neo-cons are thinking "well, dammit, they might be right, but I still don't like it."
Most cons have long since lost all the logic arguments, and have no facts to support things like the status quo of American health care versus single payer systems.
So, I believe the current political status among our 'Merican working class tea-partiers is "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up."
Moving on toward enlightenment, where they understand that voting for neo-cons is the same thing as giving a bigger slice of the capitalist pie to the 1%'ers, may be impossible without some sort of mass psychology based public opinion campaign.
However, one finds that the Koch Brothers, and other neo-con big shots, are waaaaaay, waaaaaay ahead in that race.
Like Will Rogers said, "I'm not a member of any organized political party.....I'm a democrat."
One thing the Republicans are, is organized.
Well that, and they are extremely well funded by those who gain the most from owning the federal and state governments. They are also well supported by those who make a spectacular living off of selling the neo-con snake oil, such as Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, Murdock, et al.
I have long marveled at how being a neo-con pundit makes you a millionaire, but being a liberal pundit means you better have another job lined up. Perhaps an economist from the other hemisphere can explain that fact of modern media economics.
How did those right-wingers get that flag wrapped around themselves so tightly, anyway?
Yup, Limbaugh & Co. learned a long time ago that they could fling any old stuff against the wall, and if it stuck for a while a whole lot of folks would consider it to be a masterpiece, paying big bucks for it. To them there was no stink, just a very special aroma. There is no accounting for taste, nor its associate sense of smell. ;)
OKR - read your poem. Appreciated it.
But honestly, I have had to quit watching anything about our non-functional legislative bodies simply because I am so sickened and appalled at the self-righteous justifications for pure cruelty and viciousness that they have been 'legislating'...
Hundreds of bills 'regulating', as Rick Perry called us, "breeding vessels" but cutting access to babies' healthcare, food, and education and not one single jobs bill. SCOTUS striking down the VRA was only the beginning as the bloodiest of 'red' states rushed to eliminate voting access that significantly disenfracnchises elderly, disabled, lower income, non-white, and young people. The cruelties of law-enforcement against ordinary citizens who are exercising their civic rights in their democracy and petty officials of all stripes who have taken stupidity and brittle adherence to 'rules' and 'anti-terrorist' tactics to insane lows like tazing mentally disabled children, manhandling and hurting old women, are inexcusable and senselessly hateful...
I am so disgusted by a patriarchal system that makes excuses for the pathetic insecurities and cowardice of people who only know how to kick others when they're down, after they've hog-tied and tripped them to get them there. Social conservatism is one thing - but this is so psychotically far beyond that it's literally into legalized inhumanity and vicious cruelty, all in the false name of 'conservatism'... this has NOTHING to do with 'conserving' anything but abusive elitist power, and it's just sick.
It's distressing to watch the insane justifications for pure ill-natured meanness under the lying cover of 'caring' - it's a bloody lie, it's an excue for serious abuse of power, and it's certainly nothing to be proud of... The profound disrespect that is constantly on display for women, 'others' of all colors, the elderly, poor, youngest, and sickest under perverted cover of "father knows best" is almost horrifying, and worthy of the absolute worst totalitarian regimes - but not of these United States. And it's disheartening to say the least.
Figured you would ND. Good rant by the way, got me infuriated all over again. Thanks I guess. :)
Nuther good un SD.
News we are going to miss the hell out of Eric. The whole town of Marshall will miss he, and Amy, but sixty percent of them won't know it. They will vaguely know something is missing as they, and the whole town settles down to go back to sleep under its comforting layer of small town dust. :(
The thought occurs to me that folks in small towns all ride turtles. Somebody comes into town ridin' a rabbit, and a lot of 'em just smirk as he hops on by. They know they are going to win the race, they nearly always do.
Yes, 'we'll meet again' -- I like that better. Thanks for your kind comments about my contributions to Marshall. Of course, I owe Marshall a debt I'll never be able to repay for being such a great place to live and work and for getting behind the projects I've been involved in.
I'm very grateful for the team at Marshall Cultural Council (and the jazz fest & Battle of Marshall committees). Great people with vision and energy. You won't find a more enthusiastic advocate for Marshall than MCC's new president, Mr. Chris Nelson.
And we have so many other terrific leaders -- with the band, orchestra, chorus, public schools and college. Hate to dispute you and OKR, but I think Marshall's culture is in very good hands!
The last Congress, the 112th, set a record as the most do nothing Congress which resulted in a new low of only ten percent approval by the people. The new 113th Congress is on track to get even less done.
"The biggest legislative triumph so far of the 113th Congress, the Senate passing immigration reform", appears to be undigestible in the House. The Republican House could not even pass a farm bill. That lower track is blocked by polypian Republicans who because of regular doses of irrationality have swelled to the point that nothing can get past them. Congress is constipated.
When the House sits to do its business, no matter how hard they strain they can not get it done. Admittedly they have not been provided the best menu to eat from, but only very sick folks refuse to eat, digest, and eventually pass anything. If this obstruction continues the three places we folks elect people to pass something more than gas will become known as the Senate, the White House, and the Out House.
The House of Representatives has on several occasions been the controlled refuge of the minority party dealing with a majority Senate, tied by party to a President. Thus in that context they have been the Out House without suffering the scorn, and snickers of the populus. However when all that eminates from the Out House are groans, grunts, and an occasional agonizing scream, or bellow, accompanied by an ever increasing stench, the Out House becomes something less, something we can not safely tolerate.
And that is the scatological scoop tonight. ;)
This is a link to the story that prompted my rumination. http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/30/19206400-unproductive-congress-how...
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