Speak Out [religion]: Sept. 9 to Oct. 8, 2013

Monday, September 9, 2013

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  • New Speak Out [religion] starts now!

    -- Posted by Rachel Knight on Mon, Sep 9, 2013, at 12:43 PM
  • -- Posted by World Traveler on Wed, Sep 11, 2013, at 10:17 AM
  • news - rofl! great start to the day :D

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Sep 12, 2013, at 7:03 AM
  • yeah, he does... I don't understand why they don't call Christianity "Paulism" since Paul, and the gassed up, drugged out dude on Patmos that wrote Revelations, have had more to do with 'modern Christianity' than Jesus ever did... ah well... things that make you go 'hmmmm'...

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Sep 12, 2013, at 9:50 PM
  • Speaking of things that make you go; I have always kinda wondered if the burning bush that Moses encountered wasn't some sort of special hemp plant. Maybe he lit the sucker, inhaled it, forgot he lit it, then began thinking, and visualizing all kinds of cool things.

    I'm with ya though on calling what passes a lot for Christianity, Paul-inanity. It would create a problem though. Can you imagine that if every time you became perturbed, disgusted, or angry all you could explode with was Paul! I reckon Paul just can't cut it like Jesus Christ in any way at all. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 13, 2013, at 1:00 AM
  • news - I had reached the same conclusion about Paul, and about the rapid spread of Christianity subsequent to Paul's "Elmer Gantry" routine... an opportunist who'd pick a dead guy's eyes for his last coins.

    OKR - now that DOES make one go 'hmmmm' :D...

    One minor annoyance to me is the ignorance of the multiple languages used in the original texts... and the fact that Yeshua's actual name did NOT include "Christ", which was actually GREEK (a hundred years later) for "an Enlightened One" - similar to the Buddha, which ALSO means "an Enlightened One"...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 9:16 AM
  • News, thanks for the compliment, although you are very wrong. I think if a person remains somewhat calm, and for the most part rational, they can have the appearance of being intelligent :-) I don't always do that, but since I chose "Rational Thinker" as my Id, I have to be more careful about what I say -- self-induced pressure. However, that hasn't stopped me from popping off with an opinion without doing any research, but sometimes the heart overrides rationality. I find it difficult to take a firm stand on what human intelligence really means. Is it star-given (God-given not possible for an atheist :-), or is it learned? Probably both, but that depends on how you define intelligence. Drop Einstein off in the Outback, and the aborigines become the most intelligent if survival is any indication. Let's just say I continually learn from many of the posters here who more often exhibit more knowledge on the topics than I have which sometimes equates to me being more careful about what point I try to make since I look up to most of you. You possess intelligence in science and other areas beyond anything I know, but luckily sometime you succumb to emotional comments that bring you down to my level :-) ND not only brings vast intelligent commentary but a human and compassionate side that few else show. And then OKR and Smart Dog amaze me with both a depth of knowledge and often a more poetic contribution to debate that makes it more interesting. I sometimes think it would be nice to share an evening with all the bloggers over wine or beer to loosen things up. Even those I think borderline crazy might be fun to socialize with as longs as we don't have to talk about politics or religion... maybe. But, alas, that may be just a fantasy. Now, back to rationality :-)

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 10:17 AM
  • BTW, it is sometimes difficult for me to not use the terms "God-given", "thank God", and other theistic phrases. Since my last several years of coming to the ultimate realization that I am truly an atheist, I have tried to stay away from using any of those terms in my social life, but I occasionally revert back to them. A quick "Thank God" sometimes slips out before I can catch and correct it. I don't proclaim my atheism in social circles, but I really try to say "thank our lucky stars" or something of that nature instead of the memory entrenched "thank god" that sometimes (rarely) slips out. I believe most of the people I know who use that term are thanking the same set of circumstances that I am.... events beyond their control that happened to work out positively.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 10:30 AM
  • Here is a link that I believe many of you will find interesting. I had read it recently, and was reminded of it by ND's reference to Yeshua, a common Aramaic name back in the day.

    Harry T. Cook "Jesus: Zealot, Sage, Or Socialist?" http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs146/1101380377741/archive/1114467674596.htm...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 2:20 PM
  • Ricky Gervais is one of my favorite atheists. Here is a recent and short interview with Pierce Morgan. I even agree with him about weight :-)

    http://youtu.be/n6CyUmdxbFc

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 7:59 PM
  • Anyone ever hear of Aron Ra? I just ran across this fantastic YouTube video of him speaking in Texas about how atheists are not the problem (and more). He looks a bit like Meatloaf, but this guy makes a truly awesome speech:

    http://youtu.be/_0Ca88xNw_w

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 15, 2013, at 8:17 PM
  • I assume DO intended to post that on the Political blog. So, maybe he'll move it over there and then respond to his take on Evolution :-)

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Sep 17, 2013, at 2:56 AM
  • Me too RT. I was unaware of the 5th chapter Numbers bit. LOL

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Sep 17, 2013, at 2:57 PM
  • News maybe it is necessary double talk?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 18, 2013, at 5:34 PM
  • OKR - thought you might particularly enjoy this week's Archdruid Report... "A sense of homecoming". I thought of you, friend :)

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Sep 18, 2013, at 10:04 PM
  • That was an interesting read ND, thanks for the heads up.

    An aside; I long wrestled with whether I am happy because it is my nature, or happy because of my awareness of nature. I concluded I am happy because of an acceptance of what is. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Sep 19, 2013, at 12:37 AM
  • Absolutely not News. I also do not believe that Jesus as portrayed in the Bible was a single individual. My inclination is to believe that Bible Jesus is put together from several individuals over time, and perhaps even from illustrative fables using fictional characters. What I believe is that it is one hell of a construct to use as a personal guide.

    What prompted your question if you don't mind me asking?

    By the way, read the link at my post of 9/15, 2:20 p. m. on that subject.

    See ya later. Yawn, it's 2:03 a. m. here.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Sep 19, 2013, at 2:05 AM
  • News what do you do with all the lumps of coal you have been getting at Christmas for fifty odd years? I bet your old sock looks more like a coal bucket than a mantel adornment. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Sep 19, 2013, at 9:46 PM
  • Ho ho ho!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Sep 19, 2013, at 10:53 PM
  • Re: yours of 5:19 p.m. News those folks who screw the poor over are not participants in Christianity. At best they are participants in Paulinanity. Actually I am not sure that they are anything more than secular posers indoctrinated by Scroogeistics. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Sep 19, 2013, at 10:56 PM
  • Pope quote: "Pope Francis said in an interview published Thursday that the Catholic Church cannot focus only on abortion, contraception and gay marriage, and that the moral structure of the church will "fall like a house of cards" if it does not find better balance".

    The Catholic Church and all churches teaching scriptures claimed to be communicated thru man as the word of the supernatural being they worship will ALL fall like a house of cards eventually. However, if they make an effort to quit focusing on abortion, etc., they might last just a little longer. No matter how much good they do and no matter how liberal they try to become to social behavior, in the end what they worship is either true or it is false. They could remain together as a social group without the ignorance of praying to a supernatural power, but eventually all members must be faced with the question as to whether it is true or not. The more well educated we become, the more obvious the answer is that none of the scripture they worship could have ever been inscribed from direct communication with their deity of choice. Sorry Mr. Pope, nice try, but you can only slow downl the inevitable.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Sep 21, 2013, at 7:59 AM
  • News, I say a big Amen to that! It's a big step in the right direction.... toward reality.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Sep 21, 2013, at 6:14 PM
  • Are unspoken thoughts ephemeral, or enduring? Could there be an unknown manner by which they permutate into permanence?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 22, 2013, at 11:26 AM
  • More Old Testament creepy stuff. If fuzzy minded fundamentalists truly believe, and act on this sort of thing in their play book they are the ones who should be isolated, even shunned.

    http://godhatesvaginas.com/

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 22, 2013, at 12:17 PM
  • OKR, I'm convinced now that the Old Testament was written by the GOP :-)

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 22, 2013, at 1:34 PM
  • Regarding your query News, I don't know. I reckon though that if they got one chip wrong it would be a chip off the old block. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 22, 2013, at 11:57 PM
  • Seriously though what I meant by my comment regarding unspoken thoughts was more akin to trees warning other trees of approaching danger. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16916474

    Not necessarily that precise manner, but perhaps something somewhat like that. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying for instance that a parallel to what trees do such as human flatulence conveying thoughts outward, though even that may at times be considered a form of communication. ;)

    What I meant was something that science has not discovered that is in play.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 12:16 AM
  • News ya reckon ole DO has wandered off to Alex Jones oasis to refill on that special kool aid? We haven't heard a word from him in nigh on to a week.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 12:35 AM
  • Yup, Tea Party is about right, getting deeper into Paul revere no doubt. That's Rand Paul of course. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 1:06 AM
  • Ah yes News. Those were the days. I caught Jethro Tull in 1974. Ian Anderson was superb prancing about amidst the lights, and smoke. It was a great night if my memory serves me, and that remains in question. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 1:32 AM
  • Don't water it. Back to sawing logs. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 1:34 AM
  • News I use an electric mower, hedge trimmer, and weed eater/edger, even though electricity is not really cheap here. Other than that I use hand tools, good for my physical self, emotional self, and rational self. Yup very selfish about that I am. I think it is a case wherein selfishness is a positive thing.

    I am encouraged that there are wind farms all over western Oklahoma these days. There is a huge struggle occurring over whether giant utility company will build another coal burning power source, or invest in a more ecologically friendly source.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 11:32 AM
  • The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

    Winston Churchill

    -- Posted by moodyblue on Mon, Sep 23, 2013, at 10:36 PM
  • Moody your Jefferson quote smells like it might be a retroquote, words placed posthumously in the mouth of a well known dead person. http://truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jefferson-quotes.htm

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Sep 24, 2013, at 12:15 AM
  • Moody, although your comments are related more to political and could elicit better discourse in that blog, I'll have to say that the Thomas Jefferson quote is quite easy to agree with. However, the difference many of us have with shutting off food stamps and other safety nets is that it is for those who are either unable to work or who cannot find meaningful work. The challenge is to somehow keep the baby and not the bathwater. What we cannot agree on is just how much waste we are willing to allow to insure that the truly needy get food and shelter from those who can afford to help. Even though I do not believe Jesus was a god or had supernatural powers, based on everything I read in the bible, Jesus would have not cut the food stamp program like the GOP has done.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Sep 24, 2013, at 5:39 AM
  • DO, we all agree Mercury is bad, but you are our resident conspiracy theorist (CT), which always makes me second guess what I might have otherwise agreed with you about. However, your anti-science feeling about vaccines are totally wrong and dangerous for society. I am pretty sure I posted some scientific links about how dangerous it is for all of us for people who refuse to be vaccinated against dangerous and deadly diseases on the political blog, where it probably belongs. It either shows a complete disconnect with the reality of science on your part, or a total lack of understanding from inferior education. Given you are a known CT, I assume your paranoia is the cause of your disconnect and not lack of education? Do you fully understand the concept of vaccination and how it has rid society of many of the deadliest diseases known to man?

    I doubt you'll check this out since you think it is all a conspiracy, but just in case you want to try and learn something on "Why do some of us still reject everything experts tell us about vaccines and genetically modified foods", here is the link:

    "Hundreds of sick children, many paralyzed, some dead. These children hadn't been vaccinated."

    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/science/Irrational+outbreak/8938776/stor...

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Sep 24, 2013, at 7:08 PM
  • News you keep saying (hoping?) that all those amoral obstructionists in the house will be voted out in the 2014 elections. That will not happen my friend.

    After the 2010 census House Districts were redrawn mostly by Republican state governments to assure redder than ever House Districts. They will be back in force in 2014.

    It will be 2016 at the earliest before we shuck the jivers; when a national election brings out a bigger vote, and hopefully even some of the reactionary right voters will have been bloodied to the point that even they will say enough is enough.

    When human lemmings pick up speed, and mass as they march to the cliff it is hard to stop the nearly inexorable march until the majority of them are drowned.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 25, 2013, at 4:56 PM
  • Those are excellent tactics. I just don't think enough will be motivated, and mobilized by 2014. I hope you are right. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 25, 2013, at 11:45 PM
  • I wish I could have been among the first folks on earth,

    riding around on dinosaurs soon after this world's birth.

    Then maybe I could have also seen old Noah's giant ark,

    filled with a million species was it far too big to park?

    Perhaps God wadded the elephants in his mighty hand,

    and shrunk them into spit balls, or a grain of sand.

    There had to be someway to contain that huge load.

    I'll be darned if I can think of any other mode.

    There have been very few of the early details told,

    We should know more of earth, just six thousand years old.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 27, 2013, at 1:07 AM
  • Shake, shake that rattlesnake, gotta get right with the Lord.

    You gotta embrace the serpent to find that river to ford.

    Quake, quake, before you bake, in hell with the heathen hoard.

    Just go ahead on, a scoffin' and a makin' fun of me.

    You folks just watch a different channel, it's on the same TV.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 27, 2013, at 1:51 AM
  • news - I remember when Kansas originally decided to ditch science standards for 'creationism' and it was an absolute embarrassment... so don't count the wackos out yet... THAT is why they have to RE-adopt national science standards, at all...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Sep 28, 2013, at 12:41 AM
  • And I would recommend Azlan's book - Jesus was a homeless, couch-surfing, brown-skinned, socialist hippie guy who was working to overturn the Establishment... which I always thought was way more interesting than the 'American Jesus' of the GOP... :D

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Sep 28, 2013, at 1:30 AM
  • I don't think it is anywhere near some type of conspiracy theory, but it just turns out that the major religions are more than just a comfort level for the down trodden. Religion works to the advantage of the money power structures around the world. Oh, you don't like your wretched lot in life, and you know the rich and powerful are hoarding as much money as they can? Well at least we will all get our just reward when we die as we've led a moral life and will be rewarded in heaven and those ruthless people at the top will suffer in eternal hell. Religion acts as a drug for many to accept their lot in life and the rich and powerful know this. The really wicked money hoarders at the top realize religion in many ways helps them get by with not paying what most of us call a "fair share" of taxes or wages. We enjoy telling fairy tells to our innocent children, wanting them to enjoy their childhood and not fret over real worldly events they'll learn about soon enough. Religion is that same fairy tale for adults. Jesus will make things right in the end. Sorry, folks, no such thing as life after death, so you better live a good and moral life and appreciate the here and now.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Sep 28, 2013, at 6:27 AM
  • RT - I believe that is why Marx referred to religion as "the opiate of the masses"...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Sep 28, 2013, at 7:21 AM
  • Mark Morford on Lewis C.K. and the bawdy mystic.

    http://blog.sfgate.com/morford/2013/09/24/louis-ck-and-the-bawdy-mystic/

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 30, 2013, at 1:33 AM
  • DO thanks for sharing the recommendations and warnings about various drugs. It does help us all to make more informed choices.

    I do believe that many of us over medicate. One of the reasons we do that is because it is easier, and more convenient to pop a pill than to make life style changes that can yield the same, or better results.

    We as a society eat much more than we need to eat to sustain ourselves. Thus we are a society suffering from an epidemic of health damaging obesity.

    We continue to use tobacco though we know that it will damage our health, and as with obesity shorten our lives.

    Far too many consume alcohol in amounts that are harmful and has the same results.

    Unfortunately there is not a risk free pill available that treats our compulsion to over consume.

    I wish that all the enticing advertisements for medicines, alcohol, and unhealthy foods were banned as are tobacco ads. I wish that all of the advertising exposure in media was not only banished, but replaced by equally persuasive advertising with the same saturation, touting healthy foods, and excercise, as well as cautions about the dangers of alcohol, bad foods and tobacco. If that change was charged with the same creativity as is expended now we just might see real changes for the better in as little as ten years.

    Having said that, though I never in my nearly seventy three years have taken a prescription medicine for anything other than such as infections requiring a course of antibiotics; I would do so, and likely will if my life, and health are threatened, and my conservative measures fail.

    Oh, I forgot, I have taken prescription pain medication a few times. I have in every case been dissatisfied with the results, and opted to endure the pain, or in more extreme situations opted for short term use of marijuana.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Oct 1, 2013, at 3:10 PM
  • news - I might give up the cheeseburgers, but NOT the grilled cheese or New York style cheesecake... or the Guiness :D

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Oct 3, 2013, at 9:06 PM
  • Vaccine Risk

    "This tiny risk must be weighed, however, against the far greater risk of contracting a serious disease that could threaten a child's life. In 2007, vaccines are estimated to have prevented 14 million infections and saved 33,000 lives."

    http://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vac...

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Oct 5, 2013, at 4:44 AM
  • Myth: The flu vaccine contains thiomerosal, which may be harmful.

    Thiomerosal -- a preservative that contains mercury -- has never been shown to be harmful, Cunningham said. The type of mercury linked with nervous system damage is methyl mercury, he said. Concerns over methyl mercury levels have led to recommendations that pregnant women avoid eating large amounts of certain types of fish, such as swordfish.

    In contrast, thiomerosal is an ethyl mercury compound.

    DO, you should read about the 6 Flu Vaccine Myths link below. I can believe you and your conspiracy theory sources, or I can trust in real science:

    http://www.livescience.com/24354-6-flu-vaccine-myths.html

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Oct 5, 2013, at 4:48 AM
  • However, I will agree that out life styles are such that we do ingest a lot of harmful things from our food supply. Eating food raised using insecticides and hormone injected meats, and on and on, has certainly added to our cancer rates. As usual, it is well after the fact, but our knowledge about this and ability to take more control in our choices are continually enhanced by science which has been slow to identify what some think is common sense. I'm afraid all we can do is to keep pushing to identify and correct the problems as we find them. Too many people are being jammed together and it will keep getting worse until we can achieve zero population growth. One thing is certain, god won't be there to help us so we have to help ourselves.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Oct 5, 2013, at 4:59 AM
  • News, do you have any links to what a "scientifically planned economy" entails? I have held the belief for many years that we must have some incentive to reduce our population, not just zero population, although we should first strive for the latter. Never a student of economics, I don't understand why striving for 1 child per family as a long term goal could not work with our current structure of economics. I do know that religion is a major stumbling block since we need to provide open and frank sex education early as well as providing free access to birth control. And of course, in general, we have to quit making decisions based on ancient and often ignorant writings in each religion's supposed "holy" books.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Oct 5, 2013, at 2:24 PM
  • News, not sure what you think I should read with that link about scientific economics, as I don't see anything in that that discusses what that is. Just the fact that the link has "Marx" in its URL makes me wonder if the NSA is now watching after clicking on it :-) Maybe that should be :-(

    The first link concerns me when the first paragraph has this in it: "he therefore regards the theoretical attitude as the only genuinely human attitude, while practice is conceived and defined only in its dirty-Jewish form of appearance.."

    Now I feel it necessary to ask you News if you are anti-Jewish? Also, are you a proponent of Communism? This should no doubt be questions on the political blog, so I won't try to delve any deeper in this are here. My related concerns here would be, as we've both referred to, is the backlash on effort to control our expanding population growth from the religious community.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Oct 6, 2013, at 10:52 AM
  • This Jon Stewart interview with Richard Dawkins is really a good one. These are all short interview sessions, and as usual, Jon Stewart is a master at bringing out serious discussion with a large dose of humor. I also think this first segment has Dawkins addressing the point I hear in this blog often that science claims to be THE ANSWER to everything, which I myself have tried to refute ad nauseam. Regardless, I think this interview will be both informative and fun for most of you:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-24-2013/exclusive---richard-dawk...

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Oct 6, 2013, at 11:40 AM
  • RT: It seems to me that the whole notion of "growth" that is a requirement of capitalism is in fact a primary problem. We cannot have infinite growth on a finite planet - period. I'm not sure what News is referring to when he talks about a scientifically planned economy but Herman Daly has been talking about steady-state economics for quite a long while...

    There's a whole lot of other factors in there, as we became heavily industrialized, like the deliberate demeaning of the home-subsistence economy (women's work), the break-up of the unions, the rising plutocracy/corporatocracy, globalization, refrigeration, rising costs, falling wages, technology, etc but that perpetual growth machine becomes all-consuming, leaving nothing in its wake. As a matter of fact, when we the people became "consumers" not "citizens", we became the problem because "consumers" give nothing back but trash.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Oct 6, 2013, at 7:29 PM
  • News - Not my area of expertise, as you know, and I don't really care WHAT it's a derivative of (socialism is fine), but it's the only one I've seen that is sustainable over the long haul.

    DO - and Republicans used to be Democrats, Black people used to be slaves, women were not allowed vote at all, and I doubt you really care except to destroy the organization NOW...

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Oct 7, 2013, at 6:04 AM
  • News: "Your party will be reduced to the equivalent of a 3rd Party and with no power at all."

    That is wishful thinking, but I am afraid you are totally underestimating the power the GOP has and will continue to have. They will continue to Gerrymander to their advantage, as well as continue to grow their coalition of super religious, fearfully ignorant, and use their wealth to influence power to maintain a strangle hold for some time to come. The use Double Speak continuously to counter the obvious harm they are inflicting on our country and the poor and shrinking middle class. They keep proclaiming that Obama is the one who refuses to negotiate and therefore the fiscal cliff is his fault. Most of us can see and understand Orwellian double speak, but as they continually dumb down the public school, they've learned that stupidity makes a good sidekick to do the dirty work of the rich and powerful. Don't underestimate these mean and evil power mongers. Besides, they have Jesus on their side as well.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Oct 7, 2013, at 8:02 PM
  • I hope you are wrong News. I wish a lot of bad things on the Republicans as they deserve, but certainly not at the expense of the rest of us. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about the GOP, as they don't mind taking everything down in an attempt to get their way. They are lucky there is no god, or they'd burn in hell.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Oct 9, 2013, at 8:23 PM
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