Speak Out [politics]: July 1 to Sept. 9, 2013

Monday, July 1, 2013

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  • Come on DO knock off the cut and paste articles in totem straight from "infowars" and other sites. You know darn well that it is the custom on these blogs to provide a link, and an introduction to the link when presenting other's work.

    It is insipidly arrogant of you to flout customs that the rest of us honor. Is it just that you believe your juices have run dry, and that you don't feel you have anything left in your own mind that is worthy of posting? If so you are wrong. I find a lot of your stuff interesting. Have more confidence in yourself.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 2, 2013, at 12:37 AM
  • PRIVACY IS NOT A VICTIMLESS CRIME

    I wonder how far we will be into the twenty first century when that becomes a slogan repeated by mass media ad nauseum, printed on bill boards, and repeatedly flashed for partial seconds on television, and in movies. How soon after that will some President in his State of the Union address, voice rising, roar it out, followed by a rousing cheer, and a standing ovation from both sides of the aisle?

    Another slogan of that period may be, HAVE YOU GOTTEN YOUR MICROCHIP? EVERYBODY HAS ONE.

    When will the National Chamber of Commerce have a massive marble structure built equidistant from Congress, The White House, and the Supreme Court with all paths from each of those three institutions to the others running through the Chamber of Congress Building.

    What in the hell are we allowing to be done to us?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 2, 2013, at 10:56 PM
  • Typo alert: the next to last word of my post should have been Commerce, not Congress.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 2, 2013, at 11:02 PM
  • Oh come on News, surely there are some folks, even in Australia, that have that special knack to find evidence of Big Foot. Do you lock up folks like that down under? Do you suppress them even more harshly with powerful medications?

    I reckon you guys just don't have the same kind of freedoms down there.

    You must be suspicious of your government if there is not one person there who claims to have seen a creature, and will happily provide evidence of it.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 3, 2013, at 6:09 PM
  • -- Posted by NDII on Fri, Jul 5, 2013, at 7:57 AM
  • news - from the coup taking over the Hawaian monarchy to protect the 'sugar interests' of mainland plantation owners, to the assassinations of Mossedegh and Allende to prevent nationalization of their natural resources from the pillage of OUR corporations, we have been on the road of the British Empire for a long time... no one should be surprised NOW. It's what we wanted. Manifest Destiny on steroids. Like our predecessors, we don't care either what the effects of our empire=building are on our victims. We have become what we said we were 'rebelling' against.

    Big corporations require big government to maintain big operations... as long as we have the corporations in control of the government, we will NEVER have smaller government. It's a minor detail the Right likes to gloss over...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Jul 6, 2013, at 8:41 PM
  • news - good vid! I love the idea of cooperative businesses, social businesses, steady-state businesses... I just don't know, because it doesn't 'make a killing' for a tiny few, if Americans will quit watching Murdoch's lies and swallowing the corporatist Kool-Aid about the phony 'job creators' who park their profits in the Cayman's, and destroy our communities to do it.

    I think it was really perceptive of the first American interviewee to note that companies in the US have no loyalty to place at all - they tend to stay til the tax giveaways run out, or like SOME big box stores, sue a town out of existence to force the town to give them land and rebates.

    I do hope this spreads in this country - it gets to the issue of what is 'enough' instead of a mindless ever-growing 'more'.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 7, 2013, at 7:38 AM
  • Yes, great video News. I'm sure some will say socialism, but that would be far from the truth. It is "tweaked" capitalism. Like one guy said, it's like the difference between renting and owning a home... you have skin in the game. Sounds like getting them started/funded might be the big challenge.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Jul 7, 2013, at 7:18 PM
  • RT - probably the biggest hurdle is teaching the new co-owners to cooperate, to reach consensus, and to realize that THEIR 'skin' is not MORE valuable than everyone else's 'skin'...what kind of sick metaphor is that anyway?

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 7, 2013, at 10:16 PM
  • I don't mean to spoil the thread, but I could not resist sharing this commentary by Mark Karlin, Editor, Buzzflash/Truthout.

    Here are some teasers; Zimmerman trial, and preventive killing of the other.

    http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/18070-it-s-not-just-george-zi...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 12:01 AM
  • OKR - A significant percentage of European immigrants to this country have nearly ALWAYS found an excuse to kill any 'other' for what they want.. land, gold, oil, water, whatever. We accuse the Russians and Chinese of being horrible communist dictators, who wantonly murder their own people, while we separate 'us' from 'them' and wantonly give ourselves permission to kill any 'thems' that we define for the moment. Most of the time, it is an unconscious response to overpopulation and resource depletion... but rather than mindfully and peacefully reduce our population to sustainable levels, we go kill other people for their stuff... and make up any excuse we can to 'justify' murder while continuing the same stupidity of overpopulation and resource depletion.... who said humans were smarter than yeast?

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 7:13 AM
  • Interesting vid, DO - too bad the GOP/TP haven't seen it. What was that he was saying about "fascist theocracy" and the equality of women?? That they don't mix...

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 10:03 AM
  • I find myself wishing that adult Americans paid as much attention, and knew as much about modern society and politics, as the Egyptian kid in DO's video link.

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 1:10 PM
  • 1.instinctive knowledge: the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this

    2.instinctive belief: something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence for it

    3.immediate knowledge: immediate knowledge of something

    I am a bit uneasy with your comments about intuition. I believe that it does have a place in decision making. That of course does not include basing political decisions on intuition, nor any other thing when one has the time, and opportunity to give it rational review.

    I think intuition, as connected to instinct (see definition) is a valid and in fact necessary innate quality in humans. From our beginning as humans intuition has served us well in dangerous situations. When the hair went up on the back of our necks back then it may have saved us from a sabre tooth tiger of which we were not yet aware on a conscious level. What I am stumbling around trying to say is that there are parts of our subconscious that work rapid fire, and process exterior things more rapidly than can occur with rational conscious thought.

    I'll leave it with you guys to ponder what valid applications there are that may exist in modern society. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 7:32 PM
  • OKR - I'm with you... particularly on definitions 1 and 3, and that our brains process information so quickly, most of it, in fact, is at the subconscious level, and is valid knowledge. Such instinctive actions are also tied to emotions, so that we ACT.

    "Instinctive belief", however, is where we get into difficulties, as beliefs are largely shaped by the culture, language, social structures and worldview into which we are born. Had I been born a Hindu in India, my "instinctive beliefs" would be significantly different than a Midwestern WASxP, simply by virtue of birth location.

    Understanding the difference is, in fact, the function of critical thinking, or the learned skills of rational analysis.

    I think that the Western separation of mind and body cut us off from a vital knowledge base that has had devastating consequences on human functioning.

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Jul 8, 2013, at 10:33 PM
  • ND such western dualism in my opinion was provoked by Christianity. Descartes in a sense wrote a pass for scientists to be able to move forward without the utter condemnation of Christianity. The key phrase of that dualistic pass was the separation of mind and spirit. We in the west have been chugging along with that tenuous declaration ever since. To our detriment in my opinion.

    I think of it as just another of many bad results because of the influence of Paulist "Christianity".

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 12:07 AM
  • DO left, right, or center if it feels good do it! Why bother to think about it. Ignorance is rife, and is in no way confined by mere political alignment.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 12:51 AM
  • OKR - before there was Descartes, there were, as you mentioned, Paul, and Augustine... but I do agree with you. The Age of Enlightenment was also a serious allergic reaction to religious tyranny of thought... the pendulum swings, doesn't it?

    DO - seriously? :/

    -- Posted by NDII on Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 7:01 AM
  • All one needs to know to understand the intellectual level of Republicans is found in the election of George Bush as POTUS. Twice.

    As OKR said, there are plenty of ill-informed, non-thinkers on both sides of the aisle.

    Anybody ever catch "Jay-Walking" on Leno? A fine slice of American intellectualism in the 21st century, along with "Honey Boo-boo", "Jersey Shore", and "Myrtle Manor."

    We don't have to look very hard to discover that America has become the land of the clueless.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Jul 9, 2013, at 7:23 AM
  • DO you do realize that I was not advocating the if it feels good do it attitude?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 10, 2013, at 12:55 AM
  • On the lighter side; tornado truthers, and Alex Jones. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/alex-jones-tornado-truthers_n_3321704.h...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 10, 2013, at 10:43 PM
  • Thought you might appreciate that one News. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 10, 2013, at 11:24 PM
  • It is sad News. I wonder the same about the ones who continue to die in Afghanistan as we tread water waiting to leave.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 10, 2013, at 11:44 PM
  • What is with this DO guy? Is his goal in life to poke as many people in the eye as often as possible?

    Man, you look to me like somebody who is desperate to be right about something, sooner or later, and will keep poking everyone around in the eye until somebody says "Ok, you're right, now will you stop poking me in the eye?"

    Good luck with that quest, DO. Perhaps I will buy you a subscription to "Conspiracy Theory Monthly" magazine for Christmas.

    Surely there are blogs somewhere that you could hop on and share your neocon, faux news, Limbaugh lovin', Alex Jones world views.

    If you don't like GMO crops, then I suggest you stop eating.

    -- Posted by countryman on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 7:55 AM
  • Oh, and regarding the election of Obama.

    Not many folks I know who voted for Obama thought he was much other than the lesser of two evils. Personally, I'd of preferred Hillary to any of the other candidates, on either side, in the primaries.

    Obama & Biden vs. McCain & Palin?

    That's sort of a no brainer there in my opinion. An ex-POW war monger who married for money and a nut job ex-beauty queen who quit in the middle of her governorship, didn't look very attractive. Sorry.

    Obama & Biden vs. Romney & Ryan?

    Again, not such a good choice. A wall street investment banker? Really? We want an "all business regulation is bad" believer who made millions eliminating jobs in the USA and an Ayn Rand disciple in the White House. You are kidding me, right?

    I think I'm going to start a Tony Robbins type organization and implement a 12 step program to reform neo-cons. I'll sell self help books, put on lectures that cost a fortune to attend, and start acting like I know more about human nature and psychology that everybody else.

    Yeah, that's the ticket, I might as well start cashing in on the ultra-right, neo-con gravy train as well.

    So, in retrospect, you are right, DO. It's all those pesky liberals fault that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Let me help you out, though, as you seem to be a tortured soul. Ease your mind and know you are right about everything that pops into your head. Limbaugh is just misunderstood, poor fellow. Ayn Rand was right, if you stumbled into the money you deserve to crap on everyone else around you.

    If you send me $29.95 per month, I will pray for your soul, and send you my handbook, "12 Easy Steps to Being a Less Miserable Neo-Con in the 21st Century."

    Better?

    -- Posted by countryman on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 8:12 AM
  • Rotflmao countryman. Great humor piece. :)

    Though I do disagree on GMOs, I am not one to throw out the baby with the bath water. Funny is funny. Counter-revolutionary capitalism, love it!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 12:04 PM
  • If there was any remaining doubt in anyone's mind that the Republican Party despises the ordinary people of this nation it should be dispelled by a farm bill passed by the (read corporate) Republican owned House of Representatives.

    It cut out food stamps for every person in America. Yes, all the old poor folks barely getting by, and everyone else. They say they will think about them later. Yes, maybe when hell freezes over?

    Of course the President will veto it if it gets by the Senate, which is doubtful.

    Not only is this a perfect example of the depths of the Republican despisal of every day people, but a continuation of their obstucting the nations business at every opportunity. Surely our exasperation at their ourageous behavior will result in we the people throwing everyone of them out on their ears in 2014. Yes, maybe when hell freezes over?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 4:36 PM
  • News you said, "I still trust Americas farmers because they are the backbone of America, and they have never let us down."

    So do I, but they are not in a position to control their own destinies now, or in the future. Their every move is dictated by Corp AG. They are as much corporate slaves as most of the rest of us. So, though we trust the farmers as we should, we do not trust corporations for whom they are forced to work, on corporate terms.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 4:47 PM
  • "I am just saying we need to hear from our farmers. I think they have first-hand knowledge of what's going on mate."- News Across

    Again I concur.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 8:48 PM
  • News I will also be voting in 2014, just as I always do. That is so even though in Oklahoma it is an exercise in futility.

    Which makes me wonder if rr3 hasn't slipped off down here somewhere to live. He would absolutely love it.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 11, 2013, at 10:45 PM
  • So News if we could get a half million folks from Massachussets, and the bay area of California to move to Oklahoma for a few months my vote would mean something? ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 12, 2013, at 10:51 AM
  • It's funny when news media make claims with liberal bias then it is all factual without proof, evidence or peer review.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jul 13, 2013, at 11:51 PM
  • What does the news media owe Zimmerman? They along with many on these blogs had him guilty from day one. Of course he could still be guilty like OJ. The media tried to make this a racist crime. Heck they even labeled him as a white hispanic! That's a new one on me. How many kinds of hispanics are there? Are there black ones, latino ones, I don't know?

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jul 13, 2013, at 11:56 PM
  • Come On ...

    You all know good and well if young Trayvon Martin would have been the one who pulled the trigger you'd be screaming for him to be tried as an adult - not as a juvenile ... I for one am kind of sick of people saying Zimmerman gunned down a defenseless "child" ... And with the added distinction that he was a "black child" ...

    Not sayin' Zimmerman was justified or not - but let's not make this an adult against child event - and certainly not a race thing.

    I'm sure this won't be a popular post - but I don't think everything should be made into a race issue ...

    I was there when the nation erupted after the Martin Luther King Jr. murder ... And after that Rodney King mess. In both cases there were riots and looting and devastation of neighborhoods. And most of it was whipped up by the media frenzy about race ...

    Trouble is - we've seen this type of reaction so many times that cities were preparing for the riots and protests ahead of time - they were expecting this mess.

    A young man got killed in a fight. ... The jury said the shooter was not guilty of murder.

    Let's leave it at that.

    In the words of our friend Rodney - "Can't we all just get along?"

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 8:50 AM
  • And for the record - if it was my child who had been shot and killed during a confrontation with a neighborhood watch patrolman I would be devastated, angry, and I would want justice. I might even want revenge.

    I would have lots of questions about why he was where he was and what he was doing there. And if the patrolman was black, I WOULD NOT make it into a race issue. All that does is stir folks up to where they do crazy things in the name of "street justice" ...

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 9:03 AM
  • This story makes my point ...

    Police: Man claims assault after Zimmerman verdict

    Posted: Jul 15, 2013 7:10 PM CDT

    Updated: Jul 15, 2013 7:10 PM CDT

    SENATOBIA, Miss. (AP) - Police are investigating claims that a man was assaulted in Senatobia, apparently in retaliation for the verdict in the George Zimmerman trial.

    Police Chief Steve Holts says a man called police about 11 p.m. Sunday, saying he has out jogging when forced into a car and beaten after an assailant asked if he knew who Trayvon Martin was.

    The victim - whom police aren't naming - is white. He says his assailants were black. The victim says he was dropped off on a road about three miles north of Senatobia in rural Tate County.

    The victim suffered what Holts described as "non-life-threatening injuries" and was treated at a hospital and released.

    Police are investigating and declined to say if they have suspects.

    Senatobia is about 40 miles south of Memphis.

    Copyright 2013 The Associated Press.

    Where do we go from here ... Is this behavior justified?

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 9:10 AM
  • Gentle Ben, would Zimmerman have confronted a white kid randomly on the street? The answer is no as there were plenty of other white folks walking around that neighborhood at the time, yet Zimmerman never paid any attention to them.

    He singled out Martin because of the color of his skin, the way he was dressed, and the way he was walking. He has already admitted to that in his police interviews, that Martin's appearance is what caught his attention in the first place. That is a fact of the situation.

    So, race was a factor. Revisionist history won't change that. It was the motivator for Zimmerman following, and then confronting, Martin.

    Additionally, this is a fight between a full grown 200+ pound man and a 15 year old, 140 pound teenager. So, yes, it was an adult confronting a juvenile. No, not a child, but adolescents aren't quite full grown adults yet, are they?

    So, you still say race had nothing to do with this and that it wasn't an adult confronting an adolescent teenager?

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:49 AM
  • Ok news - enlighten me ... What is motivating me - (hint - it's not racism) ...

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 12:56 PM
  • By the way - does no one want to comment on the article I posted talking about three black men attacking a white man in retaliation for the Zimmerman verdict?

    I'm not a racist - but I would like to encourage comparing apples to apples where assault and battery are concerned. The jogger could very well have ended up dead ... All in the name of vengence. Is that kind of behavior justifiable because of the Zimmerman acquittal?

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 1:02 PM
  • SD -

    That's because the Old Testament IS NOT based on the teachings of Christ ... The OT narrative purportedly points (usually in veiled terms, types and foreshadowings) toward the arrival of a Messiah - the Christ - the one Jews and Christians both should follow and whose teachings are the basis of true Christianity ... Christians believe that person - the Jewish Messiah - to be Jesus of Nazareth ...

    There is nothing inherently Christian about the Old Testament - it is a running history of the teachings of the Israelites, their poetry, and their "words and direction from God" or prophecies. ...

    The teachings of true Christianity can be found in the words printed in red in the New Testament of most Bibles ... Those words attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. ... Anything else is just man's interpretation - which obviously will contain bias and opinion.

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 3:33 PM
  • I just want to say that you are doing a nice job on this issue News. I am waiting for Zimmerman to say "I wish I had never gotten out of my car that night. I was told not to. It was a horrible mistake." I am not holding my breath until I hear that from him.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 8:30 PM
  • Pesticide use is skyrocketing across the Corn Belt as Bt corn (insecticide built in) causes Bt resistant insects, and worms. So now with GMOs failing as was predicted, we are back to soaking crops in pesticides. That is the best Monsanto, et al can do? It is win win for them, lose lose for everybody else.

    We harm all by eliminating diversity in seeds. It is necessary for natural balance.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/09-6

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 9:22 PM
  • "Growing your own food is like printing your own money."

    TED talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzZzZ_qpZ4w

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 9:38 PM
  • I am wondering if Monsanto, and Syngenta are eroding the last frontier of farming by secretly developing GMO marijuana seed? It would not surprise me if they are all over that burgeoning industry. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 9:50 PM
  • I'm sorry that I interrupted the thread, back to it.

    I am sick of the recent trend among conservatives to hurl the word racist right back at anyone who exposes their racism, and calls it what it is. This ploy that we all learned as small children began when one would hurl a derogatory name at another, then that other would hurl the same name back at the originator. This went back, and forth until one uttered the magical phrase, "I am rubber, you are glue, it bounces off me, and sticks to you."

    I am so frustrated by this conservative cognitive breakdown that the next time one of them hurls it back at me I am resigned to, with no further give and take, to immediately reply, I am rubber, you are glue, it bounces off me, and sticks to you. Sadly I must desperately sink to that level (their level) to get them to stop such foolish nonsense.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:09 PM
  • "Race, Politics, and the Conservative Cognitive Breakdown" http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=10167

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM
  • DO I gotta say that you are always shouting "Hey guys, I have found the needle in the haystack". You are yet to show us the needle, though you do love to needle us. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:18 PM
  • Typo: You HAVE yet, instead of ARE yet.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:21 PM
  • Actually, DO - that is merely your opinion of news and SD's commentary. I found it to be quite perceptive.

    Racism is not 'bigotry' nor 'prejudice'. Racism, and patriarchy, explicitly encompass power relations within a hierarchical structure in which non-whites, women, children and elderly are 'valued' as 'less than' white males, and in which the dominant power structures and culture are created and maintained to enforce that privilege hierarchy.

    Non-whites may be equally prejudiced, but they do NOT have the wealth, power, privilege, legal control, historical advantage, nor monopolistic ownership of virtually all media to ENFORCE their prejudice as the current white male power structure does.

    -- Posted by NDII on Tue, Jul 16, 2013, at 11:34 PM
  • How ironic DO, you rail against the power structure in one area, and then defend their control, and its results in another.

    It is the same paternalistic white males who have corporatized our government at the federal and state level, who also control, our state, and federal legal system. How can they be so wrong in one of their areas of dominion, and in your mind so right in the other? I think the dichotomy is in your perception, not their actions.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 12:00 AM
  • "Sucker-punched"???? Nonsense. There is, in fact, absolutely NO proof that Zimmerman was 'sucker-punched' except in his own mind and his own frequently changing story, and that includes his pre- and post-trial 'interviews'. He could lie like a rug, and who is around to call him on it?

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 12:36 AM
  • OKR - interesting point... how does one attack and defend the same power structure at the same time? "Gov't" is evil and must be destroyed - unless it's defending something one personally likes?

    "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne LaMott

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 12:45 AM
  • DO - "eat your own"??? wow - that's really clear... please do not assume Zimmerman is any relation to anyone here unless they so inform you...

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 12:47 AM
  • news -

    O great perveyor and seeker of scientific evidence - you make a lot of assumptions, mate.

    You assume I am racist.

    You assume I am not a minority.

    You assume I do not have empathy for the plight of the First Americans (past and present).

    Such widespread assumption is not becoming in someone as evidence-based as yourself.

    I, for one, expect better from you.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 2:29 PM
  • Smart Dog -

    Old Testament examples -

    *Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

    *Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

    New Testament examples -

    *1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    *Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

    Sooo . Both the OT and the NT speak against what we might call "same-sex" relationships.

    In the NT - especially the teachings of Paul - upon which a majority of Christians (I think) base their beliefs.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 3:01 PM
  • Smart Dog -

    The question of gay marriage - or gay anything - leads me to question the sincerity of those who say marriage is a private thing ... Would they then legalize polygamy?

    I have been a believer for many years and I still find things about Jesus and his teachings that may be offensive at first ... But I think he is right.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 3:08 PM
  • It is past time someone said this, and said it so well.

    There are all sorts of second class citizens. White males as a category, are not. If we can't end the practice of maintaining second class citizenship, how about just making white males second class citizens. Voila! Everyone is equal! ;) http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/18090-why-not-limit-a-man-s-r...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 5:59 PM
  • Glad you enjoyed them News. So did I. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 7:56 PM
  • By the way did you see this one? It sounds like libertarianism taken to its most extreme. ;)

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/07/florida-considers-e...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 8:34 PM
  • Typo alert: extreme instead of most extreme. (redundancy)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 17, 2013, at 9:08 PM
  • DO's info on the SV40 vaccine is certainly interesting. As the cows are already out of the barn, I don't know what anybody is going to do about it now, sadly.

    It is interesting that folks were infected with that virus during innoculation, and now 95% of the population shows an immune response to the virus (meaning that they have been exposed.)

    I suppose the worst conspiracy angle is that we were all infected so that our FOR PROFIT insurance and health care industries can now make a giant bundle treating all the resulting maladies from a purposeful spreading of this virus.

    Personally, I'll chose to believe that this was an accident and no one knew the vaccines were tainted, or that SV40 even existed for that matter. Once it was discovered, with the low level of technology that existed in 1960, it was probably assumed that the virus was harmless. Mistake? Yes. A government conspiracy to kill off those vaccinated? I don't think so.

    Let's face it. There was a time in America when folks thought smoking cigarettes was good for you, pesticides were harmless to humans, and asbestos was a miracle material.

    Let's just hope for two things as a result of this.

    1) Lessons are learned and we don't make these same mistakes again.

    2) That folks don't use this as an excuse to not vaccinate their children against serious diseases.

    However, I have all the faith in the world that volumes of junk science will be produced from a wide variety of sources, and the issue will be clouded with plenty of conspiracy theories and ***-covering, so that we will never get to the actual facts and effects of what occurred.

    Thus is life in the 21st century. Way too much worthless noise and chatter, not near enough actual knowledge and expertise.

    -- Posted by countryman on Thu, Jul 18, 2013, at 8:02 AM
  • Regarding your latest comment, News.

    I am beginning to notice some significant similarities between the ideology of the Taliban and the ultra-right theories of modern America.

    I think you could put some of the Jones, Beck, Limbaugh, Cantor, Boehner, Nugent, and Koch funded stuff right next to some Taliban edicts and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

    Both use fear of the mythical "New World Order" to blame some un-named actors for a conspiracy to make everyone a slave to some "World Government" that Obama supposedly supports.

    Both think the woman's place is to be uneducated, barefoot, and pregnant, in the kitchen, and nowhere else. Women are there to be seen and not heard. (Or in the case of the Taliban, all you get to see is her eyes and nose,)

    Both rail against the World Health Organization's efforts to bring better conditions to third world countries.

    Both blame the "moral degridation of society" for why their ultra fundamentalist views are the best way for society to go forward.

    Both seem to think mandating social justice through the legal system is a bad idea (affirmative action/racism), and that equality in asset distibution is wrong (the 1%'ers deserve a bigger slice of the pie becasue they were born into the money).

    The Tea Party Conservatives, America's Taliban.

    -- Posted by countryman on Thu, Jul 18, 2013, at 8:16 AM
  • Man, my spelling is bad this morning.

    Doh!

    -- Posted by countryman on Thu, Jul 18, 2013, at 8:18 AM
  • DO you speak frequently of "distractions", and I see some validity in your point.

    Is not Benghazi exactly that, a distraction to keep our minds off the really important things?

    It doesn't do any thing for your credibility when you frequently rail against "distractions", but then rail just as frequently about the "distractions" that fit your agenda.

    Closing on a positive note, though I agreed with nearly none of it, your take off on News and "The Simpsons" was funny as hell. You do have a sense of humor! ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 18, 2013, at 5:49 PM
  • DO if I have not made my self clear to you in the past. I will reiterate in a plain spoken manner. I will not be going down the road to which you excitedly point.

    Long before you came to these blogs I heard Alex Jones comments in several forums. including late night AM radio. In fact I listened to him for several weeks. I became dismayed by half truths, spuriously supported statements, and conclusions weakly supported. So secret groups were meeting? There was a time when the Masons drew similiar scrutiny, and still do from some in your camp.

    I will not become popeyed from self induced paranoia, I am comfortable with what I consider to be my rational level of paranoia.

    That is not to say that I consider your commentary worthless. It has a place on these blogs. The more alternative views the better is my perspective.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 18, 2013, at 9:27 PM
  • Funny Do, but narrow minded. I oppose many of the things you oppose. What does it matter that we got there by different paths.

    Where we really likely differ is what solutions offer efficacy.

    I am on record as a progressive populist who supports the usual socioeconomic remedies that such folk support.

    I think I have teased out of your vague ruminations about solutions that you are a staunch libertarian regarding economic policy, but likely do a one eighty regarding social policy, especially the concept that every citizen should be left the hell alone regarding what they put into their bodies, or take out of their bodies. Speaking of dichotomies, now there is one!

    It would be nice to read precise comments from you as to how libertarian economic policy would work. While you are at it you might consider your take as to why it is not being tried anywhere in the world, and why there has never been a political state that practiced it. I'm not holding my breath until you choose to elaborate as requested, but it would be refreshing.

    Enough about what is wrong from you. We all know there is a hell of a lot wrong. Come on man how do we make it right, beyond following the labrynthian path constructed by Alex Jones, and others? That is not providing answers, just more questions. Surprise us, go all proactive for a change. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 12:17 PM
  • DO, regarding yours of 12:07p.m. I had not seen it when I wrote my last comment.

    Alex and DO stuck on a twisting path,

    consumed by fear, and untempered wrath,

    smelling rats, and offering cheese

    being as paranoid as they please. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 12:34 PM
  • Is "incomplete misinformation" a good thing or bad? I mean, I would think complete misinformation would be worse.

    Or is incomplete misinformation the same as complete information?

    Of course those questions aren't nearly as important as these.

    Does anyone thing DO has any friends out there in the real world?

    And if so, does he constantly attempt to pick fights with them by dissecting comments from multiple sources made in regard to a variety of topics and then blending them into his own personal version of what others think, followed by a verbal beat down of how ignorant their opinions and thoughts are since they are not fellow conspiracy theorists?

    -- Posted by countryman on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 2:04 PM
  • Last I heard DO the barter system is still going strong. I can trade with my neighbor at my leisure.

    So that is your answer as to how to govern a nation? You are all accusations, and no answers, have been since you hit these blogs. Pathetic.

    I don't have time for a blog rap challenge at the moment, but I'll scorch you when I do have time. LOL

    I enjoy your stuff though. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 3:06 PM
  • Best I can figure DO the only way your barter system can become the norm in a world of billions of people is if those billions of people don't exist. I think I am finally getting a handle on you. How about post-apocalyptic nihilistic neolibertarian. Is that about it? ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 4:02 PM
  • Yeh News rr3 was relatively straight forward. Having said that he has been known to dodge a question, or two. I miss the old cuss too. He was very representative of a goodly portion of American citizens.

    I wonder if we will miss DO when he is gone? I think I will. He is a pretty good B.S.er

    I hope he doesn't take himself as seriously as he seems to.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 5:16 PM
  • No Box DO. Just tryin' to figure out what horse you're on Pale Rider. It's not smart to bet on a jockey, especially when you don't know what horse he's ridin'. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 6:30 PM
  • Yup, yup, and yup News.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 6:31 PM
  • So DO what else is it that you do, other than one hell of an imitation of Chicken Little?

    So what is that we should be doing? What is it that you are doing to remedy our predicament?

    For the moment let's assume that everything you say is true. What is the remedy?

    Don't say watch this, or read that so you will know what is going on,then you can work on remedies. Surely you, and Alex, and your fellow travelers can share some answers, after all you have been establishing the depths of the problem for a very long time. Don't you think it is about time to stop digging, and start building?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 10:08 PM
  • Oh DO before I forget, thanks for replacing rr3 on these blogs. Though your agenda is slightly different your tactics are largely the same. It's nice to have familiar things about. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 10:25 PM
  • News Eric does visit the online paper. http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1985578.html

    He comments on those things in which he was deeply involved; the cultural aspects of Marshall.

    I don't believe we can expect to see him make an appearance here; the twenty first century version of the rummy joint in the basement on the corner of Lafayette and Arrow. The virtual smoke is as thick here as the literal smoke was there. It was a place where old men congregated to solve the world's problems every day. I peg Eric to be a non-smoker, virtual, or literal. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 10:41 PM
  • Forgive me NDII for seeming to exclude you from this ungentlemen's club. The truth is that the only times the smoke clears here is when you bring a fresh breeze to these environs.

    Thanks for hanging in. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 19, 2013, at 11:59 PM
  • "What have you built lately"-DO.

    Same as you awareness. For instance speaking of possible solutions to those I know, and meet; advising such things as get rid of Tea Party politicians in office, pressure elected politicians to clamp down on the corporatocracy.

    Additionally, I have written some things that have gotten national attention, with my real name. Also I donate what I can financially to folks I see as good politicians, Kuchinich for instance.

    Have you done those things?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 12:15 AM
  • Oh yes DO, I forgot to mention I sign many petitions for causes I see as good, often including a personal statement to whomever the petition is addressed. I also purchase print subscriptions to certain publications to help keep them in print. "Mother Jones", and "The Oklahoma Observer" are two, as well as "The New York Times".

    Here is a link to "The Oklahoma Observer" (online version) in case anyone would like to check it out on my recommendation. I find it to be a wonderful survivor in the disappearing world of small scale journalism. http://www.okobserver.net/

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 12:36 AM
  • Well it's time to leave the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. Good night Alice where ever you are. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 12:59 AM
  • DO, DO, Do, my poor friend you suffer from the inexorable curse that afflicts zealots. You are compelled to stick your finger in folk's eyes, and are always surprised when they do not open them.

    When I mentioned the New York Times you jumped it like a junk yard dog tossed it's first chunk of raw meat in a week. I knew you would. Of course I know its failings, and I have railed against them. It remains our nation's paper of record despite that, and thus has value. I will not detail those values for your lack of attention to anything that does not fit with your preconceptions is ignored, or simply does not register.

    You are a pitiful salesman of the product you push. If you were not so arrogantly irking I would feel sorry for you.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 10:34 AM
  • DO you yourself are the best example proving mind control exists I have seen in a while. It is obvious that Alex Jones controls yours. Jones is the most succesful practioner of mind control since L. Ron Hubbard.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 12:37 PM
  • DO I hope for your sake that this is not your best forum. You have not found a receptive audience.

    If your true goal is to find converts you may wish to take down your tent, box up the snake oil and travel on until you encounter a gullible group that has a taste for, and perceives a personal need for your nostrum.

    On the other hand if you have nothing better to do than hang around this virtual rummy joint blowing smoke with the rest of us who have time on our hands, stay with us. It would be nice if you changed the subject once in a while. Even the best of one trick ponies eventually begin to bore. Yawn.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 3:10 PM
  • DO I fear nothing so much as wasting the little remaining time I have on this earth. Thus responding to your disparaging remarks is near to ending.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 3:14 PM
  • "Homeland Security Threatens to Punish Staff for Reading Washington Post NSA Articles"

    What is this, Big Brother eating his own?

    http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/18097-homeland-security-threa...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 4:56 PM
  • I had forgotten the Chickenistas News.

    I think DO is a different breed of cat. There are somethings on which we agree. I doubt that he is less enraged than you, or I by the fact that three hundred rich persons own a greater portion of the wealth than three billion poor people in this world. There are other things.

    Contra to that he is prone to ignore areas of agreement, and becomes upset if one does not get to the exact spot he is at, by the exact method he got to that sweet spot. I want no part of that.

    In my opinion he is zealous to a fault. I feel sorry for him because zealots have a hard, often frustrating life, and suffer the scorn of the majority, which may as often be a badge of honor, as a bad conduct medal. I am sure he would be the first to say it is all worth it. That is what zealots do.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 7:45 PM
  • What do you expect from someone who listens to 8 -10 HOURS a DAY of Alex Jones & his ilk? And then tries to catch up on other (similar) stuff on weekends? Talk about 'mind control'... :(P

    OKR - I agree with you - there are actually some things DO has brought up that I agree with, but he misses out on it every single time, and has to voice his utter contempt for every thing ELSE... criminy! Even if you did agree with him on everything else, he'd find a reason to display his total disdain for everyone else anyway... so why bother? He won't be happy either way.

    Mostly I have been ignoring the recent testosterone fest... It was sort of like watching Rick Perry swear up and down, with four of his buds, that they are "protecting the health of women" - and not a woman in the room AT ALL.

    OKR, and news, I know about the women in your lives, and I know you listen to them. I almost never hear that from conservatives. And that is where we need to start making a better world - one where we LISTEN to the 'other', whoever that is. One in which the beliefs or perspective of the 'other' is not a 'threat' to our entire sense of being and whole world... If one is so massively insecure that the only way they can 'feel secure' is if EVERYbody else, known and unknown, is just like them, then I would suggest that they need to get out of the county a little more... maybe even out of the state, and country, more often - and LISTEN.

    I watched that racist, xenophobic out-of-context piece of pure propaganda that DO posted, and was appalled.

    If other people frighten/threaten conservatives so much, then I can only conclude that they are not very psychologically healthy or balanced. It seems paranoid and unhealthy to me to fear/hate gays being married, black Ph.D.s, women who don't want to be pregnant every year, people who don't think guns are the answer to all problems, or people who don't give a hoot about religion.

    We have managed to elevate opinionated ignorance to such a point that rational critical thought is all but dead. The contradictions are beyond astounding!

    For example: white people who hate non-whites, and are convinced that non-white hordes are coming after their stuff are the SAME people who ban birth control, abortion and sex ed in any form. Helloooo?

    The US has become totally irrational, and we are certainly no longer a democracy any more than Saudi Arabia or Russia - our elections are just as rigged: we have'em but the outcome was decided by the banksters and donors LONG before election day.

    We are becoming a feudal failed state owned by oligarchs, fed by the labor of serfs, and that never turns out well...

    We ignore the overwhelming evidence of real science that says we are overheated, over-chemicalized, over-populated and over-extracted, in favor of pure BS propaganda paid for by the Koch brothers and the oil industries.

    We think 'freedom' is a stash of guns and 234 different brands of shampoo...

    We work more than every other industrialized nation except for China's sweatshops - and then we compare ourselves to the worst of the worst (We're not commie Chinese!) and think that is a good comparison...

    But will we cut back our cars, our McMansions, our fast food, our work hours (and YES, we could do that) and spend that time and effort on city council meetings, school board meetings, zoning meetings, finding better ways to get healthcare for everyone in the community, mentoring kids in the neighborhood that aren't your own, or ANY thing that builds UP others? Instead of planning how to kill off the advancing hordes?

    Gimme a break!

    Sorry for the length of the rant -

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 10:40 PM
  • Thanks for clearing the smoke for a moment NanaDot. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 11:42 PM
  • Every once in awhile I go back to review the older politics blogs on the MDN. It is interesting to me for several reasons. Should any of you care to do the same I have made it easy for you. Below are links in descending order for the summers of 2012, 2011, and 2010. Enjoy.

    Summer 2012

    http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1832197.html

    Summer 2011

    http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1732389.html

    Summer 2010

    http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1642180.html

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 12:23 AM
  • DO some times you are so patronizing that you ooze it though you probably don't even know it, and certanly will deny it.

    Father knows best huh? By the way, I don't think you have ever mentioned the little woman. Busy around the house is she? Good grief.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 12:33 AM
  • Thank you for making my point, DO... you came thru like a champ ;) And the correct hormone associated with 'panties' insults is 'estrogen',btw...

    news - I am with Aussie Wife on the Great Barrier Reef - just sick about it, especially since it is in such peril anyway.

    DO - The 'tragedy' of Trayvon Martin had NOTHING to do with 'self-defense'. It has everything to do with legalizing white vigilantism. At least two other cases of stand-your-ground when non-whites were doing the 'standing' resulted in both of them getting life sentences. I don't see Wayne LaPierre speaking at the NAACP conference telling them "If Trayvon had had a gun, this wouldn't have happened".

    Second, Dr. Dyson did NOT say "kill white children" - he said "until white children die at the same rate that black children die, NOTHING will change" - which is a FAR cry from the distorted 'punditry' on your film. BTW, the next clip on AJ was "preparing for the coming race war" - kind of a clue to most people...

    Dr. Levine has long been a critic of the practices of his own profession as well as their history - he is also a Green Party member, and Green Shadow Cabinet member, and advocates for more and better mental health care for everyone. He does NOT advocate the complete elimination of medication, and his actual position was GROSSLY misrepresented in that clip.

    http://brucelevine.net/category/bruce-levine-articles/

    Actually, in this country, we would probably license and limit shampoo before we would ever limit personal arsenals... at least for SOME of the population.

    In the long annals of patriarchy, what totally floors me is that men, particularly European derivatives, have made a complete mess of the planet. Expecting THEM to fix the problems or clean up the messes they have made doesn't make sense on any level. It sort of strikes me like finding out that the contractors who built all the houses did a really bad job, took everyone's money, skipped out, and now we are re-hiring them to fix their poor quality work while they blame all the us for being lazy, stupid, (Fill in insult of choice), and they are STILL taking money to do more shoddy work.

    I am now waiting for your next salvo of insults...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 7:40 AM
  • DO - did you even actually watch your own Alex Jones clip? Or did you just post it because it was on Alex Jones?

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 12:39 PM
  • Trayvon Martin stood his ground, and was murdered for it. So did native Americans. So did the slaves of the south. Don't you just love stand your ground laws? That is if you are white, or percieved white.

    Conservatives may say the law is clear, it is black, and white. I heartily agree.

    http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/18098-trayvon-stood-his-groun...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 12:57 PM
  • There is more in the link I included, including an interesting take on the real impetus for the establishment of the second amendment.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 1:16 PM
  • "The Travon tragedy was a self defense case, pure and simple. "-DO

    The "Stand Your Ground" doctrine in can be found in Florida Statute § 776.013(3) (2012). Here are some key parts of the legislation:

    § 776.013. Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm

    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    Trayvon Martin had every right as per the statute to stand his ground. He stood his ground with his fists. In response to standing his ground he was attacked, shot, and killed.

    I suppose by your logic DO that if you are walking down a street, and are approached by a threatening person packing heat, and throw a punch at him, nailing him with a good one, which also makes him feel threatened, he has last dibs on the "Stand Your Ground" doctrine. You are comfortable with that court case extension of "Stand Your Ground", right? Maybe we should all start referring to this ridiculous mess of law as the "Last Dibs On Stand Your Ground Law".

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 1:49 PM
  • DO I sometimes am provoked to consider the likelihood that you may be rr3 on steroids.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 2:22 PM
  • Aw come on guy, don't get your boxers in a bunch, and quit paying attention to those low T ads on AM radio. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 2:38 PM
  • DO I do not know if you were prevaricating, or you were truly ignorant of the application of First Amendment rights on a private forum.

    This is different than a public forum. You post here at the discretion of the owner, or the owner's representative. They can give you the boot in a New York minute, for whatever reason they choose, as long it is a reason they could use for any other poster.

    Whichever it was, now you are on notice.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 5:59 PM
  • No DO it is because the political right abets extraordinary violence by assuring that guns are as available as ice cream cones that black men named Trayvon are killed all the time, as well as little boys named Kevin accidently killed by their brothers, and little girls named Julie who were under their desks at school, and mothers named Debra who were enjoying a movie with their husband, and Kahlil who was shot in his liquor store by a robber.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 8:04 PM
  • And by the way DO what I just said is an example of consistent outrage from the left. It is a consistency about which the political right is clueless.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 8:09 PM
  • DO my comments were a direct response to your words, not content of one of the trillion links you put up daily. I disagreed with what YOU said because I thought it poppy cock, and explained why I disagreed.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 10:18 PM
  • DO you must have a different and broader definition of racism than anyone I know. You throw racism at folks for the darndest reasons. Just to be sure that you (at least in this narrow case) are on the same page as the rest of the world here, from the Oxford Dictionary is the definitive defintion of it:

    "noun"

    "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

    *"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:a program to combat racism"

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 10:28 PM
  • Now that you have been provided by definition the opportunity to understand what racism entails, please explain what you meant by "Misdirected outrage is racism".

    How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that to say the proliferation of guns, and easy access to them leads to killing of people in all walks of life is racist? Keeping that definition fresh in your mind, do you want to rethink that fuzzy remark you made?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 10:42 PM
  • DO - as OKR said "Poppycock". As the kids say - "whatever".

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 10:44 PM
  • Evenin' ND. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 10:50 PM
  • Evenin' OKR ;) hope all is well with you and yours.

    "If we THINK a thing is real, it BECOMES real in its consequences" - even if it's a total fabrication...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/opinion/sunday/sunday-dialogue-the-meaning-of-...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:05 PM
  • DO my friend you are just not up to snuff tonight. More fuzzy thinking from you. Are you O. K.?

    For instance you said, "The short description of the video can only convey a hint of what the video is about. You rail that I post too much and should only post a short line or two."

    I have never said that DO, nor even implied it. I suppose that you became confused when I said IN RELATION TO OTHER PEOPLE"S WORK that you habitually cut, and paste to these blogs instead of using them for their intended purpose to SPEAK OUT that you should use a SHORT COMMENT to introduce other's work, and then provide a link to it.

    I am all for you posting your own words as often you want to at whatever length you want to. Dig your hole as deeply as you want to. LOL

    I must say though that at sometimes in the past I have, and others have been asked by management to shorten them a bit. I try to do that when I have the time to make them shorter.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:19 PM
  • Thanks News.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:21 PM
  • All fine here ND. We had our dear little grand daughter all weekend. Life is good.

    I hope all is well with you, and yours.

    We drove up to Olathe through the Flint Hills a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I have ever seen them prettier in the summer. The freshly harvested wheat fields here, and there among the hills looked like they had been gilded in gold as the sun shined on them. It was a beautiful contrast.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:30 PM
  • I've told my family when I die, cremate me and scatter the ashes over the Flint Hills ... while drinking a Tall Grass ;D...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:35 PM
  • You said Do "The problem is that you post a reply to your own imagined dialog that hasn't taken place." Now you know that isn't true DO. Everything I said was in direct response to statements you had just made.

    Why don't you get a good nights sleep, and start fresh in the morning. It is a lot more fun to debate you when you are fresh, and on your mettle.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:38 PM
  • And no, nothing imminent - just standing orders ;).. glad to hear it.. us, too. :)

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:38 PM
  • It would be a beautiful place for one's final flop ND. :)

    Good advice to DO News, and courteously said. If he follows it maybe he will be less stressed, and more cogent, at least I hope so.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 11:44 PM
  • Bureau of Justice Statistics data show that from 1976 to 2005, white victims were killed by white defendants 86% of the time and black victims were killed by blacks 94% of the time. Just going by these numbers there is no wide spread homicidal racists. The real enemy of African Americans is the so called leaders of them Jesse Jackson who is morally corrupt and Al Sharpton who has a history of inciting people to near riot atmosphere to be latter proven just a man who spreads falsehoods. 75 percent of African American children do not have there fathers in their lives. High unemployement is a problem which the white liberal leaders love to have so they can run their plantation. The white liberals are the new Plantation owners they need to keep african americans down and out in order to have a voting block.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 2:02 AM
  • "I really don't like typing, I'm not good at it ..."

    Could of fooled me.

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 7:52 AM
  • News - "As to you(r) opinion of me, you don't even know me mate. If you want to hate my political positions or my economic positions -- great, fire away! But if you want to get into personalities and personal differences -- you will have to find someone you actually know for that. I have no interest in such games."

    Touche' mate. ... That's what I was trying to say after you labeled me a racist (or someone having racist tendencies).

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 2:22 PM
  • Your video link says more about what idiots most Americans are than anything else, DO.

    Well that and Mark Dice is a tool.

    Who looks for intellectual enlightenment from the guy who wrote, "THE Book on Dating: Strategies Every Guy Should Know," anyway?

    Apparently Mr. Dice has found a way to make a living pandering to the conspiracy theory crowd, since his dating strategies handbook isn't suporting him.

    "All fear the Illuminati...."

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 2:34 PM
  • I have deleted comments due to complaints. Please keep in mind there are others on this forum.

    A friendly reminder, "Refrain from obscenity in your comments, and keep discussions civil, don't say anything in a way your grandmother would be ashamed to read!"

    Thank you.

    Rachel Knight, editor

    -- Posted by Rachel Knight on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 5:43 PM
  • Not me DO, apparently as usual you were your own unDOing. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 7:50 PM
  • DO There are several reasons that I have not complained even when a few folks over the years have gotten down right personally nasty. Chief among those reasons is that I believe the perpetrator harms his own case, defeats his purpose, as much as I would defeat his case with reason on one of my better days.

    You referenced me as an old fool on multiple occasions yesterday. Have you considered that someone else that read it, perhaps even someone who reads, but does not post here, thought it was offensive, and complained?

    Me? I would not have flagged that if for no other reason than I reckon that the worst I could have come out of it would have been someone reflecting on your comment with "that is the pot calling the kettle black". Beyond that I wouldn't be surprised if several people laugh at us all for wasting our time all night long arguing as we do. Sometimes humility yields insight.I know that I can not save the world. Do you?

    Anyway, all that said I hope you continue posting. I think that you write rather well, and also make me think to counter your arguments.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 8:29 PM
  • Honestly DO sometimes when you should, you just can't keep your mouth shut. You said, "It's the young ones I worry about, unlike your perspective of let them fix what 'we' won't be bothered with. Beautiful granddaughter, here's a crap sandwich. Enjoy.."

    Actually DO I wish my beautiful granddaughter could eat a crap sandwich, I bet she does to. She was twenty one in June, she can not voluntarily move a muscle, which includes the inability to swallow. We feed her through a tube. Believe you me DO I worry about the young ones. More than you will ever know.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 9:12 PM
  • News that is a beautiful place to cast the last of your past.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 10:33 PM
  • ND re: yours of 11:05 p.m. 7-21-13

    Thanks for sharing those perspectives. I see hopeful changes regarding race in my high school senior grandson's group, and this is Oklahoma. they are much more advanced than prior generations regarding "What will end racism is not arguments from biology but rather the full mixture of genetic pools, so that it will be impossible to look at someone and use labels like "black" and "white." The increasing popularity of the new socially constructed category of "mixed race" shows that we are heading in that direction."

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 10:57 PM
  • Oh, and all you so called pure white folks (some folks of other races too) that despise, and fear the dreaded mixture, get used to it, it's coming. I hope soon enough that you are still alive to recognize what utter fools about it you have been all your lives.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:09 PM
  • Your last comment News; well said!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:16 PM
  • Evenin' OKR :) - yep, it will fade... and good riddance!

    I read the ugly comment about 'your grandchildren', and had to walk away. I hope your response elicited the shame it deserved but I'm not expecting anything...

    news - loved the pics! what a great place! Don't forget the stout :D

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:17 PM
  • I'm still catching up. SD, yours of 7-21-13, good stuff! Thanks

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:26 PM
  • Fine night ND. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:27 PM
  • Ya know sometimes I think of these blogs as therapy rooms. Some folks stick around to see who is going to be next to join "group"; some come for a while, and decide I don't want, nor need this, then leave; some breakdown, and are told to leave, in effect reassigned; some just keep on checking in because it is a nice place to share thoughts, and feelings anonymously with folks they grow to care about at a safe distance.

    It's all good.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 22, 2013, at 11:58 PM
  • Ya reckon you ought to stash a little ash for folks who want to blow a little soul? ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 12:01 AM
  • Ya know News, I think that a lot of us guys, and certainly most of us who hang out here, just have not been able to shake our school boy behavior. It is if we are still running around the school yard, forming alliances, making enemies, and when nothing else is going on even scrapping with our friends. Daring, and double daring, "I can whip him", and "I don't like that one". we just can not stop agressing. I see that in my behavior all the time.

    Thus you, and I, during a slow period on the playground got in a ridiculous argument that raged for days. We beat hell out of each other over nearly nothing. Fifth grade fisticuffs barely disguised. And I must add, as would have been in the fifth grade, here we are chums again.

    Now take DO. He comes into the school yard, his first day, maybe he is a military brat, maybe he has seen a lot of new school yards. He's a pretty sharp kid, he sizes it up, and sees where the action is. From "experience" he knows he has got to nail those two guys first day. He mouths off at you, he mouths off at me, and even mutters a little about our Tomboy friend. He takes a swing at you, and takes a swing at me, and even itches to take a swing at ND, but that makes him feel a little weird so he is half hearted about it.

    He feels pretty good about himself from those early skirmishes, and swaggers around the playground a little bit, loudly proclaiming that he knows what's cool, and that we are dorks, or goobers, any of the other derogatory swagger words that connect with the various generations. By the way the other guys on the playground don't like him all that much either, because he also lets them know that he is cool, and they are not.

    Things do not get better, and the anger heats up. Fists fly, and mud is rolled in day, after day. One day you, one day me, some days the both of us. Well maybe the grind finally got him to the point that he took a lickin', maybe we all took a lickin' I for sure can't say I don't feel the effects of it. We all get hurt one way, or another. It is hard to distinguish a winner. Maybe there is not a winner except each of us in our own minds.

    Anyway DO it's time for summer vacation, come back in August for sixth grade. ;)

    News you must know that Your dear Aussie Wife knows this about us, and so does my Sweet Bee. Probably DO's "missus" that he mentioned but then got mad, and said he wasn't going to tell about, also knows. I know that ND knows, and likely hangs with us partially because she is amused at our foibles.

    We will do this over, and over. DO who is so sure that he is right about everything, will never convince us of anything. You, and I will never be able to persuade DO that he is wrong about anything. That is so because that is not what any of us are really trying to do, we are still acting as we did on the playground.

    I can't wait for sixth grade.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 1:54 AM
  • The thought occurs to me that there are many perspectives from which to view about anything. I like to consider at least three, which make the object of reflection at least three dimensional in my mind. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 2:17 AM
  • Interesting analogies fellers.

    To me this is just a plain old internet blog, filled with folks who think they have something worthwhile to say. I will admit, I post mostly for my own entertainment as I, too, suffer from that human ego that makes me think somebody will enjoy reading what I write.

    A frustrated journalist at heart, I reckon. However, I find a great deal of humor in what others write and am somewhat addicted to reading (and posting on) a few different blogs.

    But more importantly, who knew we country folks were such risk takers, eh? Apparently all this time we have been living the rural life thinking it was all serene and a bed of roses.

    Deep down we are all just risk junkies living out here in the dangers of the jungle.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19623252-surprise-big-cities-safer-th...

    Shouldn't we pay lower taxes, or get some sort of 'gubmint' hand out, since we are living out here in the danger zone? Obviously we are disenfranchised as we die more frequently from the same things that urban folks survive. (Note to those who don't get subtle humor: the previous statement is sarcasm.)

    Actually, I think the end of the article contains a lot of truth. We don't have the quality of health care, especially trauma care, that the big city hospitals have and therefore suffer higher rates of death from the same accidents one might survive if taken to a big city trauma care unit.

    The article doesn't say this, but we also have way more farm equipment and livestock related accidents than those city folks. Unfortunately, some things related to agriculture can be dangerous. Farm safety is a serious thing.

    Most farmers, or kids who grew up on farms, have been in, or know somebody who was involved in a fairly serious accident. When I start thinking about it, it is sort of chilling as I have been in a couple of trips to the doc resulting from ag related activities and I know folks who have died, or been seriously injured as well, many during childhood or adolescence.

    Or, alternatively, perhaps we are all just a bunch of good old boy rednecks that enjoy beer, and "hey, y'all, watch this..." waaaaay too much. Mix that with dirt bikes, ATV's, guns, and plenty of room to get up a head of steam and you got stuff going on that is way better than reality TV.

    So, which is it? Farming is risky and rural trauma care sucks? Or are we country folks just a bunch of bored adrenaline junkies living out here on the modern frontier with crappy internet speed, unreliable electricity, and gravel roads?

    Probably depends on which driveway you travel up to ask the question, eh?

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 7:52 AM
  • I don't think you can read racist into anything I've posted ... Looks like the swaggering know it all in the schoolyard is none other than the thunder-from-down-under.

    I guess if I decided to "shake the dust from my feet" and move on you would read that as running away with my tail between my legs.

    Grow up buddy ... After all - There is life aside from "spitting" matches.

    Have a great day - mate.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:47 AM
  • Sometimes Curly Bill and Johnny Ringo show up and make the whole Wyatt and Doc thing look a little shaky ... Thank the heavens Doc always has that double barrel coach gun hidden under his coat.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:50 AM
  • By the way -

    How's it going OKR?

    And you too NDII??

    Good to see y'all are still around.

    Heck - it's almost like a family 'round here - which is sort of sad when you really think about the implications.

    I wonder what happened to rr ... and I wonder how long DO will last.

    Thanks for always making me feel right at home ...

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:54 AM
  • Thanks for three more perspectives fellers. Now I have some more to dimensionalize in my head.

    I reckon old DO is workin' on the perspective he wants to present. I can't wait, as I said he is a pretty good writer. You all are.

    Its all good. Peace.

    Oh, Countryman? Are farmer's still running around half handed from fondling the wrong part of a corn picker at the wrong time? I had an uncle disadvantaged so at hand shaking meet and greets, and the same for the next neighbor down the road when I was a kid.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 10:17 AM
  • Is this an aspect of what the Far Right means when they say we want to restore Ameica to what it once was? After all in the early days many a duel was fought on sand bars, and gravel bars in the middle of rivers.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:39 PM
  • LOL News, flies with honey, enough rope to hang himself, all that rot, hip, hip, cheerio! :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:44 PM
  • -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 8:50 PM
  • Hey, GB! Hope things are going well for you, too! :) I've pretty much been staying out of this fray... seems like news and OKR are holding the left end of the fort well... :D

    -- Posted by NDII on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 9:47 PM
  • The Weiner Song

    I wish I were an Oscar not a Weiner

    That is what I truly wish to be

    cause if I were an Oscar not a Weiner

    no one would really mind,

    oh no one would really mind

    that unmentionable part of me

    (I am probably the millionth person to do a take on this, but I searched, and didn't find that anyone had done this take, my take.)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 23, 2013, at 11:35 PM
  • I gather you do not think that he can cut the mustard.

    I believe his obviously compulsive behavior is an illness. Sadly as with most forms of paraphilia, treatment is often unsuccessful.

    Perhaps he relishes the pickle he is in. I suppose that may be some comfort to him.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 1:00 AM
  • Funny News, what an edgy message, to not go along with the crowd is a harder choice than to take a chance on being eaten alive.

    It seems poor Mr. Weiner via compulsive rebellion is taking just that chance, because he is not able to go along with the crowd. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 1:41 AM
  • Apparently Weiner like showing his junk to the crowd as opposed to going along with them.

    -- Posted by countryman on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 7:48 AM
  • May peace, especially in your own heart, be with you DO.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 1:47 PM
  • Nit picking, and motes in other's eyes

    blinded by his plank, in his own fat he fries

    I like that one better DO than the wiener one.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 1:53 PM
  • "OKR, you are the one that caused the editor to delete comments."-DO

    There is only one way to put it DO. You are either lying, or your paranoia has reached a new height. I tend to think it is irrational paranoia because I know that I had nothing to do with it, and I can not imagine anyone telling you that I did. On second thought perhaps you got it from Alex Jones, he specializes in unsupported conclusions, as you apparently do.

    The only thing I did (as I said I would) was flag your long cut, and paste of someone elses work, informing the webmaster that such is not customary on these blogs. She apparently disagreed with my request because that is still on the blog.

    Bottom line: I don't know whether to feel sorry for you, or just stay the hell away from you. Probably both is the best solution. This is getting creepy.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 4:15 PM
  • DO I would never ask that any comment you personally wrote be deleted. among other reasons, that is because it is my opinion that you are. your own worst enemy. This is a perfect example of that. You continue to call me a liar based on nothing except your own imagining. You have gone way to far beyond the bounds of propriety.

    You have my permission to contact the Editor. Please ask her if I requested anything other than that she delete the long comment by someone else that you cut, and pasted to the blog. At this point if you do not I am going to. You have until tomorrow to do so. Enough of this!

    You are going to appear very foolish when this is concluded.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 5:57 PM
  • The fact that the african community doesn't have real men out there to be role models is a tragedy and I am not talking about Al Sharptopn or Jesse Jackson I am talking about Dads, Uncles, Grandpas where are they? They have skipped out of their duty to be the role models these kids deserve. It has had an effect on this community, however this is also having an effect on other ethic communities. The fact that the African American un employment rate is at all time high under a Black President is a tragedy and indicates that liberals want the African Americans dependent on them. And when you have that you have a group of people who have no hope for a great future so they end up having more crime. 94 percent of African Americans murdered are killed by African Americans the real problem in the African Community is not racism by conservatives but racism by liberals.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 7:20 PM
  • Wow!

    I went away for a while and came back to the middle of this argument. I don't think I can even catch up - I've been reading down the posts and can't seem to find the beginning of the problem.

    I'm glad you're back, DO, there was too much agreement when you were gone, but I guess I should be careful of what I wish for.

    Regarding Weiner - he is a moron. The idea that he thinks he can continue to seek elective office when he kept sexting AFTER he resigned is kind of amazing. I mean, if he thinks he's done something he should resign for, why does he think anybody should vote for him after resignation if he keeps it up?

    I only ask - why is David Vitter still in the Senate? Why haven't the people who care about marital fidelity forced HIM to resign? He was actually unfaithful to his wife.

    And why did the traditional family troops vote for Mark Sanford? He was also unfaithful - as well as misappropriating the funds of his state. Weiner is an idiot, but why don't the people who get elected because they say they believe in marriage and the family ever pay when they get caught? That's not what Weiner ran on.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 7:26 PM
  • Jason,

    I've known a number of African-American fathers who were very involved in their children's lives.

    One who comes to mind is a guy who is still a fire-fighter (risking his life on a regular basis). He came to the 2nd grade "What do parents do" day at school in full regalia and my daughter got to try on his firefighter boots, helmet & coat - which she remembers very clearly. I remember it, too. You could barely see her under all the stuff. It was unbearably cute.

    If he had been working in Detroit, he would now be seeing attempts to take the pension he bought by bargaining away higher salary away from him through bankruptcy.

    It's hard to find a way to win - unless you work on Wall Street, for a big bank or for a multi-national corporation.

    Why do we keep falling for it? The African-American dad isn't the enemy (nor is the African-American mom). If we care about the welfare of families, let's get behind things that are good for families - health care for all, a living wage, good public education, and assistance for people who are in distress so that they can get through and pay taxes later.

    Racism is just another way to make sure there are people at the bottom who will take worse terms because life is worse for them. It drives the bargain down for all working people - like now telling us we should be willing to compete globally. That pits the American worker against people in Bangladesh who make $34 a month. Can any of us live on that?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 7:56 PM
  • Jason - racist nonsense. Just because YOU don't know any doesn't mean that responsible Black men don't exist... it just means your social circle is awfully small.

    HTS - good to see you! and I wonder some of the same things... ;)

    DO - if you actually copy all this stuff, you have way too much time on your hands... and who really cares? I'm done with your paranoia and insults.

    news - had you seen this one?

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/23/study-of-crack-babies-shows-poverty-more-d...

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 8:35 PM
  • news - just read this, and it follows what I have been seeing for awhile... the GOP has gone WAY beyond obstruction to true sabotage of the government, which in my book, is truly TREASON... hope some of Roy's folks are watching...

    http://nymag.com/news/features/republican-congress-2013-7/?imw=Y&f=most-viewed-2...

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 24, 2013, at 9:12 PM
  • Well DO have you yet contacted the Editor to ask if I flagged anything of yours for deletion other than your lengthy cut, and paste job of someone else's comment? The clock is ticking I will do so myself tomorrow if you have not.

    You have viciously slandered me over, and over by repeatedly calling me a liar concerning this matter. All that based on your own imaginings with out a shred of other evidence. Your day of reckoning comes tomorrow whether you have the guts to make a straight forward inquiry for evidence or not. I will not, can not let that rest.

    You may not realize it, but you have committed a tort for which, if I choose to pursue it, you will have to answer in court.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 12:41 AM
  • Thanks News. I of course have no intent of pursuing this matter in the civil courts. I was merely apprising the offender that his behavior had gone well beyond mere bad taste, and insulting incivility to something more serious.

    I do not want any of his posts deleted. In fact I prefer they remain. I simply would like for the webmaster to advise him that I did not request that any of the posts he wrote be deleted, placed beneath the most egrigious of his posts wherein he repeatedly called me a liar. That I only, as I stated prior to doing it, and afterward, flagged a single very long cut, and paste from someone else that he plunked down, not anything he had written. The Editor apparently disagreed with me as that post still stands. That's her call, I am good with that.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 2:43 AM
  • news - true. ;)

    I do, tho, think that it is high time that we acknowledge and truly understand that the current GOP is ALL about literally destroying the federal government in order to create the United States of Corporatocracy, for their own personal profit$. All the elitist, theocratic, racist and misogynistic bills are simply eliminating 'the people' from any access to or participation in their own governance, and for transferring the wealth of a nation to the pocketbooks of the banksters. If we do not wake up, and realize that it's all about the 'Have-everythings' versus the 'have-nothings', we will decline even faster than Gaia can blink...

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 10:13 AM
  • Welcome back Empress despite my disagreement with your immediate post. :)

    There is a lot of name calling, by myself included. It is generally an opinion describing what the person believes are traits exhibited by the individual being addressed. That is one thing.

    It is another thing, after the accused has denied it, to continue to accuse a fellow poster of sabotaging by asking that the accuser's remarks be expunged. That is calling the accused a liar. DO not only refuses to stop calling me a liar, though he admits that it is only his subjective opinion, he compounds it by willfully refusing to confirm, or deny his suspicions that he asserts as facts by readily attainable information. While that is expected from certain folks when considering a political point of view (never let the facts get in the way of a statement, just keep reasserting it) It takes a different turn when the repeated assertion is one of a personal nature defaming the character of the accused. You do see the difference?

    As to your stepping off into what is a question of fact, and decreeing a judgment concerning it, I don't care to debate it with you. I would rather discuss other things. Frankly I only brought up the point to emphasis that DO's actions had taken to another level the raucous debate that occurs here.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 10:56 AM
  • DO have you contacted the Editor yet to determine if I, as you have repeatedly accused me, asking her if your comments that were deleted was because I complained about them? Or do you insist on holding, and expressing the opinion that although I have denied it, that I did do it, and therefore am a liar.

    You have stated that your accusation is based on re-reading the remaining posts of that time period, then concluding that I did as you say. You must know that your position is based only on your subjective opinion. Yet you fail in the moral duty to consider available factual evidence before asserting that I am a liar.

    That is not right, not fair, and in my opinion a telling mark regarding your character.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 11:23 AM
  • Another distinction for your consideration Empress; DO has repeatedly called me an old fool, that is his opinion of my thoughts on many topics. I am fine with that, it doesn't bother me in the least, though of course I disagree.

    It is distinctly different to continue to accuse me of a morally wrong action, denied by me, with no supporting evidence. I am not a liar, and I am compelled to defend my reputation. I somehow think you would do the same if you were in my position.

    DO as for you, there will be no further discussion between me, and you about anything once this current situation is resolved. I think that best in these circumstances.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 11:41 AM
  • DO I didn't even realize any of my comments were flagged, and deleted. Really? No matter if that is the case, I have had comments deleted now, and then through the years, no big deal, in fact I usually could see the editor's point of view.

    I have wondered why it seemed a big deal to you. Are you now saying that I did not flag your comments for deletion, but that my comments on the blog caused some of yours to be deleted, as well as some of mine? Please clarify.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 12:37 PM
  • ROTFLMAO SD. I deserved that. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 2:57 PM
  • Not really Empress, I prefer to let the whole thing go, especially after being chastised by my friend SD. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 3:00 PM
  • "God's will is for us to live at peace with everyone - but sometimes the door to a broken relationship seems closed forever ... But we can - and should - do everything we can to keep the door open to a possible reconciliation ... And if we are at fault - even in small ways - we need to admit it and ask forgivenes ..." Billy Graham

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 4:05 PM
  • O. K. Empress, I bow in acquiescence to your majesty. :)

    What I inferred was that it is a question of fact in the instant case whether, or not I am anonymous on these blogs. I personally know at least twenty people in the Marshall area that read these blogs who know exactly who I am. That does not include any additional people who have been told who I am by those who already knew, nor does it include those who have guessed my identity, and there are some of those, a few highschool class mates fall into that category. Then of course there are those who work for the MDN who know who I am. Their may well be other categories of folks who know my actual identity that I have not considered off the top of my head. I have been posting on these blogs for several years, length of exposure can also contribute to erosion of anonymity. So am I truly anonymous? It is a question of fact.

    I spent a large portion of my career associated with the law, case evaluation, and settlement. It sounds as if you are also in familiar territory. If so you also know that occasionally a case pops up that takes unexpected turns, with unexpected verdict. If it becomes a published case it then becomes case law.

    Law is fluid though slowly moving. New precedents are regularly established. There are many factors that effect this dynamism, for example; quality of counsel, vagaries of juries, including juror nullification, as well as other factors. What say you my friend?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 4:21 PM
  • Just for clarity Empress, my point in my last comment was that if I am not anonymous then I can be slandered, which is actionable. As to the problem of the slanderers identity, he/she would be found out in the discovery portion of the case. Sorry I neglected to include that in my last post.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 4:52 PM
  • I was speaking theoretically Empress. Obviously I never intended to seek damages. Establishing damages would have been extremely difficult. LOL

    My point was to emphasize that I was being slandered. I previously covered that.

    However no further discussion with DO because I do not believe discussion is his intent.

    Have a good evening.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 25, 2013, at 10:47 PM
  • All quiet on the western front tonight huh News. Maybe after the recent ruckus everyone is just burned out on enflamed discussion, if you can call it discussion. LOL I know I am.

    A change of topic if I may? I believe you have indicated you went to St. Peters grade school? We used to play marbles on their grounds summertime early 1950s. They also had the second best apple tree, in Marshall, not counting the little orchard south of town. The Nuns used to chase us away from it with some frequency. Was it still there when you were daily in the vicinity?

    You may wonder how it is I know it was the second best apple tree in Marshall. You see there was a group of kids that in summer were turned out of the house in the morning, and not expected back until evening. This led us to be small urban foragers around noon, though we could hear the stomachs of the less fortunate members growling from the time of morning gathering.

    We would often attack the St. Peters apple tree like a flock of blackbirds in July, with nearly as disastrous an effect, thus the Nuns would frantically shoo us away. We would scatter, regroup, wait, and attack again. It occurs to me that I never saw the Nuns, nor the hired help there ever picking the apples though I suppose they may have.

    Occasionally when we were especially persistent the good Sisters would call in reinforcements in the form of "Mizz" Bud Smith the town Juvenile Officer, she knew us all by face, some by name, using last names only when she would call out in her deep gravelly voice, "Jones!" We would all disperse, and head to a different part of town when we saw her big, and foreboding sedan creeping around a corner.

    Which gets us in the vicinity of the best apple tree in Marshall. It grew in the yard of a house on the east side of old Fitzgibbon Hospital, on a corner lot. It was a small tree with huge sweet apples, sweet even when still green. This tree was too small, and its fruits too few for our mass marauding techniques. It was the kind of tree that even we urchins in our own way respected. It was the kind of tree that one would casually stroll by, and quickly snatch one fruit, hoping that no one was looking, then pseudopurposefully walk on. Only later would we bite into its lusciousness. I don't suppose the ritual was all that different from the ritual practiced by our adult betters along Eastwood Street when they uncorked a special bottle of wine.

    Peace.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 12:03 AM
  • Looks like I am the last old fool standing. Good night all.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 12:33 AM
  • Hey, SD, not so fast. I thought your comment was really funny and OKR, at least, accepted it gracefully as a way to end a long argument with a laugh. I would say that was well done by all parties.

    It's good to be back. Thanks for the welcoming comments I've gotten. :)

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 11:51 AM
  • I took it the way you meant it SD, and thought it was funny as hell. This old fool of a dog may have fleas, but I can still scratch. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 1:57 PM
  • No society can build its long term success on ever increasing consumption. We have reached the tipping point, and are on the way down hill. Instinctual hoarding has begun. At the top by the Wall Streeters, and as dramatically at the bottom with the folks who have no room left to walk through their houses filled with junk because they can't afford to hoard else.

    The storm is coming people know it deep down, but don't know what else to do about it. Rational thinking has been thrown aside, replaced by gold, or junk, none of which will stop the fall, and fall we must.

    Then we will rise again in a manner yet to be determined. Who says I am not an optimist! ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 2:16 PM
  • Thanks SD. :)

    You took it,and ran with it. That is one of the things I have always liked about your posts.

    Good stuff!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 3:36 PM
  • Thanks SD. There are a lot of interesting bloggers in this discussion, but OKR is one of the most fun to talk to - you can always count on consideration of your ideas from him. It makes discussion a lot more fun.

    To respond to the rest of your points, plus DO's subsequent entry, we could actually look for ways to get beyond any collapse, instead of profiting from it or retreating into individual survivalism, as sickly amusing as it is to think about our current situation. There are a lot of other ideas coming out, especially about money, since it's really vulnerable - just remember 2008.

    Here are some links about things like state or county banks http://publicbankinginstitute.org/ (videos from recent national conference here http://www.publicbankinginamerica.org/videos.htm),

    Local currency (explanation here: http://sustainablog.org/2013/01/local-currencies-token-exchange-system/, list of systems here http://www.scribd.com/doc/55537378/Local-Currency-Systems-in-the-United-States - 2009 last date I saw),

    Buy local requirements - these would be outlawed by the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the new NAFTA now in secret negotiation. This is one we should stop, maybe by demanding that our Reps in the House deny the President fast-track authority for it.

    Local production, preferably worker owned: (video about Cleveland's worker cooperatives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlO_2QhUQRI)

    Local renewable energy (don't have a good site here, but lots of stuff comes up with search).

    Anything to be less hooked to getting necessities from far away via a vulnerable chain of transport or money.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 4:15 PM
  • Empress I hope you are having a good day.

    You accurately observed that I had called DO many derogatory adjectives, names if you will. Among those was zealot.

    I do not consider zealot neccessarily a derogatory word, nor does it necessarily be so interpreted concerning DO. I do stick to my guns in that I believe that is an accurate description of him.

    Perhaps you will understand me when I write a softer form of the word: zealous. See what I mean?

    Zealots through out history have done much to further good causes. They are off putting because they are consumed by passion for their cause, will talk of nothing else, and become frustrated when others can not understand the truth to the smallest detail of their message.

    At times when they become particularly frustrated with an individual, the can not understand morphs to will not understand, and they begin to angrily harangue the person who has disappointed them by willfully rejected their message, hence rejecting them.

    They do not understand their own relative uniqueness, and that other people whom they consider promising literally can not be as zealous concerning the cause by which they are consumed. They can never be satisisfied with other than "whole hog, or none".

    That most of the harm they suffer today is confined to verbal insult may be an indication that our societies have in fact become more civilized. In the past many were crucified, burned at the stake, drawn and quartered, or worse. A zealot's life is not an easy one in the best of times.

    Now people just walk away instead of clapping them in irons, and throwing them into dungeons. Alas, even now, or in the future a zealots lot; difficult.

    Peace

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 4:26 PM
  • The thought occurs to me that when the greatest sin in a nation becomes to be poor, such a nation is truly in danger of collapse from moral decay. It is a decay even more deadly than eroded infrastructure, or vacant structures with broken windows, or broken banks. Those can be repaired with willing hands. That more pervasive danger may only be repaired with willing hearts, of which there is always a shortage.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 4:52 PM
  • Thank you all. You all inspire me.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 5:37 PM
  • I must hand it to you DO for forcing a direct reply from me. Very artful; insulting, and dismissing my compatriots. You knew that I would rise to such bait.

    You said "others here are easily dismissed as nut cases, so what's the point? Some are comical to a point but this dog and pony show has been going on for years."

    DO if you could but open your mind, and remove rancor from your heart you would find this a far richer community.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 9:29 PM
  • "Lets Shake Up The Social Sciences"-NYT

    Is this an idea for which the time has come? It seems interesting to me; even more interesting to me is to learn the reactions of some of you on whose disciplines it treads, and others among us who form, and hold interesting opinions. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/opinion/sunday/lets-shake-up-the-social-scienc...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 1:01 AM
  • Thank you Empress.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 1:02 AM
  • Obama care call center hiring part-time and offers no health insurance..The government can't afford Obamacare rofl.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 1:33 AM
  • News I took from the story the need for social sciences to adapt, not to diminish, or discard them. Did it bother you that greater emphasis on behavioral economics was suggested? Did you read the article? ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 2:20 AM
  • Comments left on religion blog should have been made on this political blog. For some of those comments left there regarding the Florida Trevon Martin case, I'd like to offer a couple of political comments. First, stand your grounds intent did not sound all that bad, but the reality of it and what it has caused is very bad. Unlike the days when I was a young man, if you get into some argument with anyone, it now has a higher chance than ever before of causing someone to get shot. Many people in Florida and other "stand your ground" states are "packing" with concealed weapons. Most of those individuals do not fully understand how heat of the moment events can easily escalate to using the highest tool you have available, and the gun is just to readily available. Regardless of race, I do not want my kids and grandkids to ever run into a George Zimmerman type person. Individuals who do not take lightly to someone confronting them for no other reason than they think you do not belong in their setting, unless they are the police, should not be allowed to have a concealed weapon. The police identify themselves as such, or are supposed to. If Zimmerman would have had his gun on the outside where it was visible and required to announce the same, Trevon would have known this guy was not just a creepy cracker, but that he was potentially life threatening. My kids have gone to party's at condos in their teens and I'm sure a Zimmerman like person would have thought that their stupid attire (teens do a lot of stupid things and some dress different than mature adults do) put them in a suspicious category. And, having that gun gave him they Napoleon complex to pursue someone who was just going to his dad's house. Stand your ground has given rise to a new bully just waiting for an excuse to stand up to someone they might not normally have stood up to. It is also given rise to the number of individuals getting permits for concealed weapons. Some of my gun freak buddies think it is all good, that is, until someone kills a close loved one of theirs, and the odds are going up for that potential. This is a new worry for all parents as their teenage kids are growing up, and even into adulthood as we know road rage can escalate from a few gestures not worthy of death. Instead of yelling at someone for cutting you off, you now will have to consider just shutting up or perhaps making sure you are "packing" as well.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 7:50 AM
  • SD - All this confirms for me is the mounting evidence that the GOP is actively working to destroy the federal government entirely, at the behest of the NRA, ALEC, the banks, and the multinationals, one piece at a time... and doing a fine job of it.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 11:32 AM
  • News I was joking re: your response to changes in social sciences, thus the wink sign my friend.

    She who must be obeyed is making some radical decor changes to my computer nook this weekend. Thus, I may not be back here until Monday. I only mention that because at my age, I could be blown away in a heart beat, or as I should say, the lack of a heart beat. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 12:34 PM
  • Zimmerman was out of his vehicle between two buildings after he was told to stand down as police were on the way. If Martin was such an imposing figure as DO describes, Zimmerman's only reason to be back where was because he had his concealed weapon backing him up. If I had been approached by him I might have very well asked him who the hell he thinks he is myself. Zimmerman started the contact when he shouldn't have, and only because it was a black kid with a hoodie on, someone up to no good in his mind. He deserved at least Manslaughter. People get convicted of Manslaughter for prescribing the wrong drug that kills someone, or hitting someone walking in a cross walk. Justice would have been served with a Manslaughter conviction.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 4:54 PM
  • Your summary is great, RT. But I also think taking another look at the laws about gun possession & carrying privileges that put the gun into the discussion would also be a good idea. An unarmed fight probably wouldn't have left anybody dead.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Jul 27, 2013, at 5:51 PM
  • If you aren't familiar with James McMurtry, and his music it is high time you get acquainted. The first link is to the song, the second link is to the lyrics, I highly recommend both. This is powerful stuff. See y'all later. :)

    "Cant Make It Here"-James McMurtry

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=james+mcmurtry+we+can't+make+it+here+youtube...

    http://www.leoslyrics.com/james-mcmurtry/we-can-t-make-it-here-lyrics/

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 28, 2013, at 9:17 PM
  • Virtual sticks and stones won't break my bones,

    and such words will never hurt me.

    Weird shticks and groans come from Alex Jones,

    and such words can never alert me. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 28, 2013, at 11:56 PM
  • News I am glad you liked the James McMurtry song. Here is another one of his that I like, and think you will too.

    Lyrics: Ruins of the Realm http://www.metrolyrics.com/ruins-of-the-realm-lyrics-james-mcmurtry.html

    Performance: Ruins of the Realm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRBOePMCppc

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 29, 2013, at 12:46 AM
  • As this planet falls around the sun trapping us in the orbit

    Creation groans in unison like a race of frightened orphans

    The darkness of this raging storm is covering up our portals

    But a yearning for the light is bourne in the heart of every mortal

    Day to day we ache

    With the pain that plagues Creation

    Night to night we lie awake

    And await its restoration ...

    From "The Pain That Plagues Creation" by Mark Heard, 1983, Bug & Bear Music

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Mon, Jul 29, 2013, at 9:47 AM
  • Re: "5 things", well said!

    So true News. It is sad, and astounding that there is little reaction from the people to those things.

    We are fattened up, dulled down, distracted from reality. If we instinctually become restless, and queasy inside ourselves they have trained us to see a professional establishment certified drug pusher so that we may feel all better. We are a nation with a plentitude of Oxy Docs. They deplete our financial resources while they are at it. The price for feeling good is not cheap, and they intend to keep it that way. Thus they will put a seventy nine year old black man in prison with a fifteen year sentence, for selling a half dozen Oxy pills over three days. They use black people as examples to the rest of us to not step out of line. We must not disrupt the predatory market system. Fifteen years for pushing a few pills, or fifteen years for black marketing?

    What a mess we are in. All we can do is continue to sound the alarm, each in our own way. You, me, DO, NDII, SD, Empress, and all the rest of the good folks who speak out on these blogs. We must lay off of turning on each other. It is a waste of our resources. We must appreciate that we each, in our own way are sounding the alarm, and that those differing deliveries will connect with a different audience, expanding awareness in the masses.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 29, 2013, at 10:14 AM
  • DO I think that the most important thing that I said is that we must get the message out as to the state of our nation, and indeed the state of the world; along with the observation that different groups are receptive in different ways to that message being delivered. The first point I have been preaching for twenty years, or longer. The second point I realized recently.

    I hope that you realize it too. Thus I am not going to grouse about the places in your post that you could not resist picking at me a bit, and inferring that you have caused me to see the light, and turn a corner. You did in that I realized that all of us are saying the world is wacky, and that better we say that than quibble, and insult each other because we are not in accord as to why. I am done with that.

    We must first make the majority of the folks aware of the problems that they now ignore, then we may resume our discussion as to why, and how to respond. Have a good day.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 29, 2013, at 1:24 PM
  • OKR - I appreciate your efforts and your observations, and I do agree that the problem we collectively face is to find common ground to face our two greatest challenges - the oligarchs who want EVERYTHING, and their Earth-killing policies and practices in the service of their psychopathic greed.

    But anyone who keeps files on fellow posters as obsessively as J. Edgar Hoover - in an apparently deliberate effort to intimidate - and pronounces judgments and insults like Rush Limbaugh is NOT interested in anyone's 'freedom' or in 'waking' anyone. That's just creepy, imo.

    No, thanks.

    -- Posted by NDII on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 7:33 AM
  • Nothing against you at all Empress I am truly glad you are with us again. I don't make a habit of entering into squabbles between other posters unless I think one is over matched.

    Don't worry about "where's the love" it is there. ;)

    By the way, didn't News apologize to you for his remarks?

    Supposin' I had interceded, would not New's apology seemed less genuine? Or, News may have gotten his back up because I butted in, and the net effect would have been no apology. Naw I did the right thing by staying out of it.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 11:02 AM
  • Yeh ND, I see your point. I am just one of those stubborn people that doesn't like to give up on what I believe to be positive efforts.

    However, each time I bring up areas wherein we should have agreement, particularly the ones you mentioned DO throws the didcussion right back to hot button issues such as abortion where there is no chance of accord.

    In fact I was musing yesterday that News may be wrong asserting his Tea Party lable for DO. I think it more likely based on the evidence that he is a Trojan horse like Roveian representative of corporate interests posting here to assure that no accord is reached on anything of common concern by otherwise diverse parties.

    O. K. DO, start throwing the rotten tomatoes, and cabbages as I leave the stage. Just remember that they are virtual, not physical, leaving no stench, thus easy to ignore. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 11:22 AM
  • Yawn.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 12:22 PM
  • OKR - as you mentioned, even IF there was any sort of common ground, this group refuses to acknowledge it UNLESS of course, we all grovel on the ground, cry 'mea culpa' multiple times, and vow everlasting subservience... Ain't it wonderful to know SOME one approves of your "change of attitude" :/ ---

    -- Posted by NDII on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 1:00 PM
  • Two thoughts Empress; are you being reasonable, and are these the posts that you want to leave as the impression of you on these blogs?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 4:39 PM
  • He said, she said. Yawn.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 5:58 PM
  • I see that a fellow Okie, Bradley Manning was convicted of spilling the beans on atrocious activities perpetrated by our government.

    Maybe one day the real criminals will be held accountable. It eventually happened to Pinochet, and his associates in Chile. Delayed justice is better than no justice at all.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 6:12 PM
  • America has always been a world leader, and we still are. It is just a new kind of American exceptionalism. Here are eight things in which we now lead the world.

    1. Most expensive place to have a baby. Yet we are among the worst in new born infant mortality.

    2. Obesity. A fat lot of good that is!

    3. Anxiety Disorders. What me worry?

    4. Small arms ownership. Aw shoot.

    5. Most people behind bars. Thankfully at least the private prison businees is booming.

    6. Energy use per person. That is not personal energy, see number two.

    7.Health expenditures. That is sick.

    8. Cocaine use. No wonder, considering one through seven.

    Is this a great nation, or what?

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/american-exceptionalism?akid=10741.1084699.pt6C6...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 8:08 PM
  • Hey News, why is it that all those far right folks that are Zimmerman fans have hardly mentioned anything about his dashing act of heroism pulling folks out of a burning car?

    http://ivn.us/penigma/2013/07/25/george-zimmermans-heroic-car-crash-rescue-appea...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 9:11 PM
  • Not much politics today on the political blog. Now I wonder why that was? I reckon folks jez don't want to discuss politics. I reckon they would rather crawl up in a fetal ball, or cry all day, or be consumed by their own personal grievances, not that there isn't enough wrong in this country to make one consider the former two.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 10:46 PM
  • Yawn.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jul 30, 2013, at 11:57 PM
  • One thing for sure News DO bores me. He has thrown all he has on the table, and the table remains bare. I am sure that he will have something snarky to say about this comment, but I won't know what it is. I am going to start reading who wrote posts first. If it is DO I will just skip it. There may be others already doing that.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 1:12 AM
  • OKR, whilst I do not comment much on this site, I read everything that is printed here every day. I will gladly join your boycott and not read anymore of DO's comments. It will not be that hard to ignore what is essentially an empty space.

    -- Posted by aussie wife on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 2:13 AM
  • Your Imperial Majesty The Empress please forgive me if I in this insignifant post, address you in a manner insulting your magnificence. Empresses are in short supply these days as most contemporary empires are run by little cabals of old white men in secret smoke filled rooms. Thus I can't recall anyone addressing an Empress.

    Though I am out of favor with you, and far from being a member of your privy council, I am compelled by my enduring fealty to share my counsel.

    Firstly I am compelled to inform you that there is apparently a problem with your computer as there can be no fault with your imperial self. I have noted that you have posted around twenty times in the last week, or so since your return to this outlying wasteland of your domaine. Each of your posts in its essence has been in regard to etiquette, or more specifically the lack of etiquette.

    Though you have mentioned on several occasions that you are a liberal, very liberal I think you once said, you have not uttered a word of proclamation, or declaration, in regard to any liberal political opinion nor political opinion of any other sort. Some how your computer has misdirected you to a POLITICAL blog. It is obvious that you were intending to visit an ETIQUETTE blog.

    While your comments though off topic have been informing, and your delivery is remarkable for the charming haughtiness that is your birthright, I am certain that you will now want to take such decrees to an etiquette website. Otherwise I am afraid that you will become so distressed, and perplexed, that you may become diminished to the point that you are only a lowly queen, two to three times a day on this blog shouting "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS".

    I beg though your Imperial Highness that you still spend some time with we peasants in this wildest of hinterlands of all your lands near, or far. We are in need of liberal edicts from one such as you. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 5:44 PM
  • I wrote my last post before I had read The Empresse's good bye post. In fact I had started writing it, stopping now, and then to attend to other matters in the household, when she posted.

    Empress if you are still reading here, even if just to check reactions to your last post, hear me out. Amid the intended satirical bent of my post was also a sincere hope that you continue posting, but politics please, as it is the master thread of a political blog.

    I would truly enjoy hearing your political opinions, of which you shared nary a one. If they are in fact liberal opinions I would particularly enjoy them. Thankfully all liberals are not made by a cookie cutter so they are an abundance of nuances to be shared, and debated.

    If you are not in fact a Liberal, you are in fact well spoken, and I would still enjoy reading them, and perhaps debate them, mindfully taking care to not offend your sensibilities.

    If you choose to not come back I wish you well. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 6:19 PM
  • Well News, I will not stop posting, and will also bear down on decorum. I will however comtinue to ignore DO. Hopefully we will return to legitimate discourse on this blog.

    Raucous political give, and take is an American tradition. That the tradition continues here is fitting, for from that early beginning, newspapers, along with pamphleteering, have been the seat of political opinion

    There was a time in our nation when it was most often, and perhaps best expounded by country editors of papers such as this one. Small towns often hosted two, or more little papers, outraging each other in political dispute to the point that one editor, would call another out in to the street wherein one, or the other would be dispatched by gunshot.

    Though these blogs may seem uncivil to some, they are as tame as a lamb in comparison to what was. Editors now answer to owners, and have sometimes quietly seceded the vanguard to blog writers, and posters. Long live freedom of the press in its continually adapting forms!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 7:47 PM
  • Good on you News. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM
  • news - I heard someone (coffee shop talk) say that 'culturally, Americans won't understand or be ready for a national healthcare system for GENERATIONS... ' -- I hope they're wrong... Harry Truman fought for this but the AMA fought him...and here we are; now it's the insurance companies who want to kill us to make a killing... we really do deserve better...

    http://www.npr.org/2013/07/30/206654000/montanas-state-run-free-clinic-sees-earl...

    http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/an-update-on-vermonts-single-payer-s...

    http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Home

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 11:13 PM
  • -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Jul 31, 2013, at 11:33 PM
  • Evenin' ND. :)

    News, that is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me in my seventy two years. What puts it over the top is that I have tremendous respect for you as a credible source. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 12:19 AM
  • ND thanks for the Helena, Montana health care story. It is wonderful.

    While I am at it thanks for the subtle reminder that we should put some focus on what is positive in our beleagured country. I know how deeply you think, and am certain that message to us crossed your mind as you posted your comment. You are absolutely right, it is hard to exist without an occasional crumb of hope for sustenance.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 12:37 AM
  • ND, taking my cue from Smart Dog, I am going to take your "subliminal suggestion" (joke) and run with it a bit further.

    I just read the other two links you presented in sequence, the first of the two, a second example of hope actualized, and the last a pathway to expansion of actualized hope. Excellent.

    I am thinking that we should take the time that we have been wasting by rebutting the ridiculous, and turn that portion of our time into promoting the good things that are going on in America. We still would be able to use the time that we are utilizing now to point out grievous flaws in the nation, and proposing potential fixs. That could go on without a hitch. Maybe it is time to give more credit to the silent readers of these blogs, crediting their good sense to recognize the ridiculous, and not waste our time pointing out the obvious.

    It is likely that the readership, and even the participation would increase with the increased positive vibe from the blogs. Heck, maybe some of the great commenters of the past would return, to join the growing nucleus of relatively new, or more active than in the past posters such as RT, GB, HTS, and others I did not mention this time (you know who you are).

    Small dreams, sometimes bring small change, that opens the door to bigger dreams, and bigger change. Oh yeh, ND you already inferred that tonight. ;)

    Good night everybody. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 1:14 AM
  • news: you might want to watch the daily broadcast of Democracy Now for today (8/1) our time... especially from :24 - :58... Australia is not exempt...

    http://www.democracynow.org/

    The ending quote from Sen. Frank Church in 1975, is chilling and should be of concern to us all... And the GOP and 6 Red Dems blocked an oversight/defunding bill...

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 8:05 AM
  • News - all I was referring to was the fact that the NSA shares their info with Australia, Canada, Great Britain, ... all of whom apparently accept the info... and that the arms of the western empires certainly do appear to be reaching across the oceans.

    As for impeaching anyone... this program was apparently started over 7 years ago, and was authorized by the Patriot Act - if we're gonna go to all the trouble of 'impeaching', we need to get 'em ALL - W, Darth, Rummie, O, and whoever voted for this monstrosity...

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 8:54 PM
  • The Supreme Court has ruled that we have no expectation of electronic privacy... I am sure there are going to be law suits out the wazoo over this, but the Constitution is what the Supreme Court SAYS it is...

    http://www.cov.com/files/Publication/4a190e59-7f5d-49db-b9e2-78da18bb2ed7/Presen...

    -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 9:13 PM
  • I disagree News, partially for selfish reasons, as I will miss you guys.

    Beyond that, they are gathering unmanageable information. What are they going to do to the millions of us that radically protest their ham handed, corporate colluded outrages?

    They would love it if we all followed you down that trail. We the people have connected as never before through the internet, morally supporting each other, and sharing ways to thwart the corporate juggernaught.

    I say to hell with them, arrest me right along with ten million others, then we will turn their cozy covert world upside down!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 2, 2013, at 12:32 AM
  • news - good luck with that... have also wondered the same things...

    However... the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are persons with all the rights and none of the responsibilities of citizens; that money IS 'free speech'; that the Patriot Act IS 'constitutional' - which guts the Bill of Rights, btw - that property is more important and valuable than citizens; the vote can legally be rigged and NOT counted; and that commercial "interests" are more important than citizens' rights. THAT is the current state of the Constitution as interpreted by the (bought-off) Highest Court in the land.

    It's a human document, a compromise document - written by men who had conflicting ulterior motives. Good but certainly not perfect, and NOT written in stone tablets.

    So which "Constitution" does everyone want to 'go back to' - the one that allowed slavery and prohibited women from voting, or the one that has sold us out to the Corporate slave-masters?

    -- Posted by NDII on Fri, Aug 2, 2013, at 6:30 AM
  • Oh no, news, we will certainly miss you. I hope after 30 days you'll find that there are some things you can continue to do on the internet - like talk to us.

    There are some search engines that don't save a trail - startpage.com among them. There are also other technical ways to be more private. I'll look it up and get back.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Aug 2, 2013, at 3:06 PM
  • HTS to the rescue! Now why didn't I think of that? That will be good information for all of us. Good goin'! :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 2, 2013, at 4:18 PM
  • You nailed it SD. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 2, 2013, at 8:46 PM
  • News: "We wonder if the advantages of the internet are worth the potential abuse posed by over-zealot governments? Are governments using the internet as an excuse to abuse our Constitutional freedoms?"

    Don't be going all "conspiracy theory" on us News :-) The Internet and all it's potential for evil carries at least an equal potential for good. The more communication we have across all peoples on this planet, the more chance we have for democratic ideals to keep trying to surface. Our government is struggling to figure out the best balance between freedom of the press and the suppression of terror. I believe our system of checks and balances across the three branches is our only hope to maintain our freedoms. To do that, we need input on all sides, I suppose even the warped and way out conspiracy theorist side. It appears we will always have a free and very investigative press, and will continue to cry foul any time governments starts to infringe on that, even if they get by with it some. The internet is a great leap beyond that, because it enables truly suppressed peoples a way to gain and share information. The genie is out of the bag, and even with occasional setbacks, I believe we are going to experience an exponential growth in democratic influences around the world. Isolation is the tool of despots.

    Check out the power of social media for this Arab student with social media (it works for politics as well as religion):

    http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/08/03/arab-atheists-though-few-inch-out-...

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Aug 3, 2013, at 5:38 PM
  • Oh! DO your back, and there I was thinkin' that you had hooked up with a couple of bounty hunters, and flown to Australia to apprehend News.

    Yeh, I saw your name at the bottom of a couple of posts. I didn't go any further than that. I figured they were just more direct hookups to infowars and Alex Jones, or a personal attack on someone, or another. I also figure that should your modus operandi change some flabbergasted soul will be so astounded that they won't be able to resist shouting it on these blogs. When I get a tip like that I will stop ignoring what you say.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 4, 2013, at 10:46 PM
  • I am curious as to one thing DO, even if Alex Jones, and company are right, down to the very last word of the spiel. It is an elaborate story that demands lots of attention to understand it. How do you propose to capture the attention of folks that not only refuse to pay any attention to, or to be offended by, and instead applaud even such a simple single point as the Repubs in the House voting over, and over (forty times) to do something that they knew would go nowhere?

    You have a long row to hoe my friend. Good luck to you. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 4, 2013, at 11:11 PM
  • DO I suppose if you confine your posts to one, or two sentence entries above your name I can't avoid taking it in as I read in chunks, not individual words. I read nothing of yours intentionally, and likely never will again.

    Your best bet to make sure I see anything you post is a row of disparaging adjectives connected to my name. That way you will connect with half your message. I don't know what you will have to do to get anything Alex in front of me. As it is obviously has the lesser priority of the two messages you strive to deliver me, I will leave it to you to figure that one out.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 4, 2013, at 11:26 PM
  • So, if y'all don't like GMO crops, how do you feel about this?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/science/a-lab-grown-burger-gets-a-taste-test.h...

    If nothing else, I am sure Mr. DO will launch into another round of cut & paste quotations and links to "we hate Round-up" links, eh?

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 5, 2013, at 11:16 AM
  • SD do ya reckon that it is monkey see, monkey do sweeping the nation? Whatever happened to water balloons? Perhaps not enough bang for the buck for today's kids who are all revved up by video games (nationwide youth drone pilot training). At times they may have a compulsion to escape that virtual world, and get real in the worst way. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 5, 2013, at 3:04 PM
  • Countryman I have had some nasty burgers in my life, but I don't know about that one. :)

    I'm glad you popped up as it jogged my memory. I had been meaning to share this information with you. Talk about backs to the wall, and GMOs! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/31/1227903/-Whither-the-Orange-And-the-Lem...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 5, 2013, at 3:16 PM
  • Internet Trolls

    (an eradication manual in verse)

    There is not a single thing to like about a troll.

    Their wacked out nastiness is never even droll.

    They bait, they hate, they calculate, to offend you and me.

    They are like an ill wind filled with foul debris.

    So close your eyes to each for there is nothing good to see.

    Such ill wind may harm your eye, even cause infection.

    A troll will harm all of you, and leave you with perplexion.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 5, 2013, at 4:29 PM
  • countryman - I have to say, if that's the 'future of food', I'll become a vegetarian and grow my own... as it is, I know my future beef - and I like it that way. ;)

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Aug 5, 2013, at 7:10 PM
  • Empress I didn't read DO's post, but I drew his context from your response. Good question. Welcome back, again. :)

    The more the merrier.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 6, 2013, at 8:29 PM
  • Here's a little update on the XL Pipeline and Nebraska farmers struggles with emminent domain.

    http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/nebraska-trial-could-lea...

    I looks like at least there is one judge left in Nebraska that hasn't joined the "let's just let business rape and pillage using emminent domain for profit" bandwagon.

    -- Posted by countryman on Wed, Aug 7, 2013, at 8:01 AM
  • These people don't care about this Country at all! All they look for is how they can Slaughter our wild Horse's,make all the Money they can off of a **** Pipeline thats going to destroy the USA water source! And every one is going to let it happen! They will have one of the Slaughter Plants in MO. and one in New Mexico,! What will they kill next our PETs, in the Name of JOB's! The Meat is going to be exported and sold in France! I have "NO" RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE THAT RUN THIS COUNTRY,NONE!

    !

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, Aug 7, 2013, at 3:40 PM
  • I did read your comments, DO (plus a lot of others - tons of provocative thought here) and you said something interesting.

    "The corrupt in power manipulate the masses, through media, to keep them occupied on irrelevant issues."

    You're absolutely right. Here we are, wrangling over Benghazi and Obamacare (it's certainly not as good as single-payer - I mean it was the Heritage Foundation's idea in the first place - but it's an attempt to deal with a problem that no one else has done anything about. It also passed Congress, was signed by the President and ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court. Our system is supposed to run on the idea that you have to abide by the decisions of the other side if you lose elections. What happened to that?)

    Anyway, here we wrangle away about whose fault it is that we're in this horrible mess while the banks take their obscene profits to the Cayman Islands so they won't have to pay taxes to anybody - while the fossil fuel industry packs away more profits than anybody ever in history, that they got from tearing the planet we live and depend on to pieces (and we give them tax breaks because fossil fuel will run out some day; probably not soon enough to keep us all alive) - while control of our country, our democracy and our world is given to corporations, which are entities that are required by law to seek profit over all else - including the lives of the grandchildren of the actual human people who run them.

    Let's get to the big stuff.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 11:51 AM
  • Who's in favor of cutting our Federal,State,Town's Reprsentiive's in half? Stop jarimanding,cut all their off time from the Job! Every time you look up, the d@#% fool's are on some kind of recess or break! See to it they stay in their office 8 hour's a day, like the other People they are Governing! Cut their Pay like they are cutting other's with time off! They will have the same Insurence we have ,with NO other option's.There will be NO pay incentive's when they leave office! Term limit's for all. And many other's! What do you think?

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 4:06 PM
  • Jo,

    Out in the Nebraska state legislature, several years ago (in the 30's I think), they thought two chambers in state government was a waste of time and money and did exactly what you are saying. They dropped the House and Senate model and went to one chamber in the State legislature, called the "Unicameral."

    It has only 49 members and is non-partisan, meaning there are no Democrat or Republican primaries, and there is no "Majority Leader" and "Minority Leader."

    The primary election pits all candidates for a certain district against each other. The top two vote getters, regardless of party affiliation or not, then run against each other in the general election in the fall.

    Their system is quite cost effective, and while their legislature is definitely conservative these days, it seems to have worked well.

    You can read all about how it works on Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Legislature

    Definitely a unique system. Seems to work out for them. Lincoln and Omaha don't seem to dominate the legislature there like St. Louis and Kansas City do here in Missouri.

    You'll also notice that they only get paid $12,000 per year. You can't make a career out of being a politician in Nebraska's Senate, what with term limits and the low pay. And legislative sessions last 90 days or 60 days per year.

    Therefore they tend to get actual citizen legislators who have another job, and run for office because their friends and neighbors talk them into it. "It's your turn in the barrel" is pretty close to how candidates get picked.

    -- Posted by countryman on Fri, Aug 9, 2013, at 8:27 AM
  • I'd back that idea if anyone would propose it ...

    Either Washington or Oregon also has non-career legislators - they have to go back home and actually hold down a job for most of the year. Term limits work to a point - but there still needs to be some changes.

    gb

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Fri, Aug 9, 2013, at 11:33 AM
  • Thanks for the link Countryman, Intresting! But you know in the end, they usually set thing up were they are still in charge of the Cattle-Prod regardless of what the People want!Im tired of hearing the phrase(What the People want)!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Aug 9, 2013, at 1:30 PM
  • Smart Dog: I have yet to see a tea partier/neo-con propose what they are "for" except "smaller government - as long as I get more, the super-rich get more, and the military gets everything else". It seems that they only want 'smaller government' when it comes to the vast majority of real people who are struggling to survive in the current robber-baron/plantation-master 'capitalism'. I usually wind up thinking of John Steinbeck's pungent comment:"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Aug 11, 2013, at 8:15 AM
  • DO - if "democracy is mob rule", what do you propose instead?

    -- Posted by NDII on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 5:45 AM
  • So now judges can tell us what we can name our kids?

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/12/19986524-baby-cant-be-named-messiah-j...

    I reckon I will be joining the "soulless progressive" gang in the mind of one feller with my comments, even as I believe agnostic moderate is closer to the truth.

    (Anyone want to get up a pool on whether that comment makes into quotes in another's diatribe? Or maybe which paragraph or sentence? It might make an entertaining way to take advantage of certain argumentative tendancies.)

    Doesn't this seem to be a bit of a judicial over-reach?

    I can't see any logic in Child Support Magistrate Lu Ann Ballew's decision, after all there are a whole host of Jesus's in the world already. As well as a bunch of Mary's and Joseph's. So far I don't know of any "Holy Ghosts," but I'm not so sure anyone knows what that is anyway.

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 8:36 AM
  • By the way, is anyone else reminded of Timothy McVey's rationalizations after reading enough of a certain contributor to this blog's dogma?

    As the young-uns say "Just sayin'...."

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 8:42 AM
  • It's your dogma that I refer to, DO, not the blogs. Surely a fellow who considers himself an intellectual can understand that sentence.

    Regarding McVey, he also thought the Federal Government was evil, the Federal Reserve was ruining America, and believed much of the ideology that you consistently support regarding taxation, social programs, and government intrusion.

    Just my impression, partner. I believe I am still free to form any opinion of your conspiracy theory fueled, tea-party loving self that I wish.

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 11:46 AM
  • "Woodrow Wilson, at least regretted, on his death bed, that he had destroyed the country with the PRIVATE Federal Reserve Bank." -DO

    Anyone that quotes Woodrow Wilson on his death bed obviously has not a clue regarding Wilson's state of mind at the time, or is truly desperate for support, any support, for a specious argument. Who are you going to quote next, Jabberwocky? LOL

    I'm back! Yeh DO though my first comment is focused on your ridiculous statement it does not mean I have any intent to engage you further. In my opinion it is impossible to engage in rational discussion with you. I did again begin to read your comments until I solved my computer problem. I haven't decided for certain whether, or not to continue reading them. I just could not resist commenting on that one. What hooey.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 11:50 AM
  • I may not be able to spell McVeigh, but I can spell b-o-n-e-h-e-a-d.

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 1:28 PM
  • It is my opinion that Obama will eventually grade out somewhere in the bottom quartile regarding his presidential performance. He is beholden to the corporatocracy. He will be downgraded for timidity, and utter lack of temerity. He will be applauded for his announced concern for the people, though he lacks vigor, and lacks persuasiveness in his execution of related policy.

    He will be castigated for failing to in a timely manner end the wars he inherited, and all the trappings that go with them, e.g. Gitmo.

    On the other hand, in time, the one shining accomplishment for which he will be be known is that he was the one to finally bring about a rudimentary start toward catching up with the rest of the civilized world's rational health care system. Upon that we can build.

    That is why I don't mind that the folks on the right who despise him have hatefully labled it ObamaCare. Their children, and their children's children will think of the phrase in an entirely different light as they enjoy the security, and well being provided by socialized medicine. For the always wrong right it will be another delayed DOH! moment or is that a DO! moment?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 1:57 PM
  • DO I have never been informed by your comments, and I am way beyond becoming incensed, disturbed, or perturbed by them.

    Though you are short on everything except conspiracy theories, and insults please keep those coming. To me you are a cartoon character that Disney's finest could not have plotted better. You are the archetype of all that the confused far right stands for; what ever that is depending on the day that question is asked.

    I could never take you seriously again, but the change in my perspective toward you has spawned a laugh a minute. Again please keep 'em coming. I truly, truly am ROTFLMAO.

    By the way if you are doing this shtick purposely, and purposefully as I am beginning to believe you are, you are a comedic genius, and a prince of parody. Bravo!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 4:52 PM
  • Empress I don't find that about babies funny, that accusation by DO is revolting and preposterous.

    My point is that he is so over the top that he could not believe all that stuff he spouts. It would be insane to do so. As he is apparently walking the streets it has to be a parody of the knuckle dragging paranoid far right.

    The only possible exception to that would be that he is in fact locked up, but has internet privileges.

    I have enjoyed your recent comments by the way for very different reasons than those that cause me to find DO amusing; make that trivial, but amusing. He is a bit like a naughty toddler shouting DooDoo, over, and over. Some folks would find that funny, others disgusting. Responses to such provoking stimuli range from spanking him (tried that) ignoring him (tried that too) and laughing at him (current effort). Oh yeh I also tried reasoning though I was not encouraged that would be successful from day one. That was just too much for the little fellow to grasp. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 6:35 PM
  • Uh oh, time to ignore again. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 6:37 PM
  • What you said Empress. I also always look forward to those folks comments, as well as those of a few others. It is my opinion that overall we have a group of regular posters that is the best we have had in sometime. If just a few of those good ones who posted in the past would join in it might be the best group in all the years this has been going on. I bet each of them who still read here know who I am talking about. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 7:48 PM
  • DO have you ever considered changing your sobriquet to Tar Baby? ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 9:37 PM
  • Left, and Right can come together on issues that they agree will be important for their grand children. For instance, take a peek at these successes by the Green Tea Party in Georgia.http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/18108-launch-of-green-tea-coalition-drives-a-wedge-through-georgias-tea-party

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 11:20 PM
  • -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 11:23 PM
  • -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 12, 2013, at 11:34 PM
  • Glad you liked it E. Much is possible that remains untried.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 13, 2013, at 11:43 AM
  • In Defense of DO

    Over the years on these blogs there have been a series of contributing contrarians. At times it seemed that each was more whacky than the last. Most have appeared to be hell bent on self destruction, ever pushing into more preposterous territory until their comments have so far exceeded the bounds of legitimate discourse that they are forever banned from further appearance.

    DO, in my opinion is different, and by far the best of the lot. Firstly his command of the english language exceeds that of all his predecessors. He also has the ability to walk that fine line between outrageous, and outcast. He frustrates, he disdains, and he upon occasion strikes to the heart of problems though always wrapping that gift in unneccessary layers of conspiratorial causality. He can not say what is, leave it at that, and proceed to pragmatic solutions.

    I think it is partially because he does not want anyone to like him too much for that is disturbing to his contrarian nature, and he becomes concerned that he is failing to appropriately deliver his revolutionary, perhaps (in his mind) even messianic message. As Oscar Wilde once said, "I was delighted to be attacked so roundly; praise makes me humble, but when I am abused, I know I have touched the stars."

    So, carry on Do; I will read you until you outrage me, then I will cease for a while. I will occasionally be drawn into debate, full well knowing it will go no where, and that you will ignore commonality, instead ranting until the roosters crow as you peck at every grain of difference.

    I have the feeling that you sometimes emit a devilish chuckle as you finish, then send us your latest "revelation". I chuckle myself brother as I now post this one. I am glad you are here. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 13, 2013, at 12:33 PM
  • Typo alert; first line has instead of have. I really need to do a better job of proofing before posting. I am too stubborn to utilize mechanical assistance such as spell check. I suppose I am of the last generation of those who insist that one's production be crutch free, and entirely the product of one's own mind. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 13, 2013, at 1:13 PM
  • I think in the case of DO a more accurate statement would be: "First they ridicule you, then they fight you, then they ignore you, then you tell yourself you won."

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 13, 2013, at 1:36 PM
  • E. do you not see that my relationship with DO has no correlation to my relationship with you, or any other? This is not about choosing up sides. You become miffed very easily, but that is not my responsibility.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 13, 2013, at 10:03 PM
  • E. no you may not suggest what I do, nor what I not do for that matter. More to the point, you may of course say whatever you like here, but don't expect picking at poster's personal choices to lead to productive conversations. Frankly you are being ridiculous fretting about who is aligned with whom. You need to somehow get control of your insecurities. Good grief.

    I will have nothing more to do with this immature conversation about who likes who. Don't you have someone you can call to say guess who I saw Sally talking to?

    Back to politics girl, it is the established subject of this blog. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 11:59 AM
  • DO you are dead on about television, and children. There are a plethora of studies that have come to that conclusion. I am glad that I am of the last generation to have grown up sans television.

    Further, it has long been a primary tool to persuade us all to overindulge in superfluous consumption.

    Good post. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 12:20 PM
  • Whatever E. Just don't forget to consider that I am an adult, therefore when you go into your Lucy mode everything I say will sound like wa-wa-wa to you, and you won't even know what you are missing. Good grief! I can say that even though I am not Charlie Brown. Wa-wa-wa-wa, did you get that too? LOL

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 3:27 PM
  • Wa wa wa....wa wa?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 6:30 PM
  • DO I think the NBRA would have more credibility if they were also pursuing appropriate charges against the war criminals of the George W. Bush administration. I am sure you will agree that administration was also rotten to it's core.

    We need to hold all of them responsible. We can't wait for those Bush folks to travel to foreign lands to be held accountable. They have the Pinochet example in front of them, and thus will stay close to home.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 7:08 PM
  • countryman - LOL! good twist ;D

    OKR - love the Oscar Wilde quote! Puts everything in perspective :D))

    -- Posted by NDII on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 10:12 PM
  • Evenin' ND. Yup.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 14, 2013, at 10:48 PM
  • I thoughthat this may be the time, and place to post this bit of doggerel that I wrote the other day.

    Friendship Is A River

    Friendship is a river that often ebbs and flows

    Its depths and currents only that river knows

    It can slice through mountains barring its way

    or become barely a trickle on some other day

    To its conclusion from the start at its source

    its destiny is to meander all along its course

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 15, 2013, at 12:18 AM
  • Here's some more two faced nastiness from Obama, and Holder. In my opinion they are just two more political hypocrites, and that is going easy on them. http://truth-out.org/news/item/18165-the-drug-war-post-snowden-holder-walks-back...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 15, 2013, at 11:46 PM
  • Thanks E. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 15, 2013, at 11:46 PM
  • Absolutely I think so E. Did you read the link that I provided? Your concerns are addressed a bit there.

    I am intending a three parter on the scourge that is meth, and your concerns will be directly addressed in the third part. If you don't too much mind waiting just a bit I will enjoy discussing your concern until the cows come home, and hope you in the meanwhile will be using your fertile mind to find ways to make exceptions that will protect the interests of those whom you have mentioned, and at the same time protect the well being and lives of those other oft forgotten babies, children, and mothers whose lives are disrupted, and destroyed by meth.

    Thanks for the comment.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 16, 2013, at 3:33 PM
  • The thought occured to me Empress that perhaps you could not get to the link I had provided so I am putting it here. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/meth-pseudoephedrine-big-pharma-lobb...

    Due to your post I realized that I should address valid concerns, such as those you raised before covering how to implement prescription only pseudo ephedrine. Therefore the next installment will specifically address those issues.

    Obviously one must get all the folks on board as is possible before covering how to implement the change. I look forward to your comments after I have addressed concerns.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 16, 2013, at 4:58 PM
  • Not at this time because I want to remain on the primary topic. One must be careful to not cover too many topics under one heading. That tends to dilute message, and focus.

    Oxycontin is devastating and its over use does need exposure, and discussion of the problem. Would you consider exploring that topic yourself?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 16, 2013, at 7:32 PM
  • Again E., did you read at the link I provided concerning what I wrote?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 16, 2013, at 10:04 PM
  • OKR - read your link on meth - I have to totally agree - make it prescription, and shut the meth labs down. If one has allergies, and I do, I would gladly go see my doctor once a year to get the rx renewed. This is a small inconvenience to a few as compared to the havoc and insanity wrought by meth on all of us, as far as I'm concerned.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Aug 17, 2013, at 12:30 AM
  • E. I have noted that you are prone to missing points. Let me enlighten you regarding the differences between meth and the other drugs you mentioned which you either overlook, or can't comprehend without direct prompts. Most of the following points are stated in the link that you stated you read. Perhaps you should read it again.

    1. Meth poisons our physical environment. 2. meth when being cooked explodes killing innocent people. 3. Meth hinders law enforcement efforts at interdiction because they have to spend time, and risk their health cleaning up abandoned meth labs. 4. Your argument that since prescriptions haven't stopped oxy, therefore prescription only pseudo won't stop meth is woefully illogical, I'll leave it to you to figure out why. 5. Requiring prescriptions for pseudoephedrine worked wonderfully in the only two states that were able to beat big pharma to the punch. Yet you obtusely argue with no evidence that it won't work.

    There are more, but I tire of tutoring you. So just go ahead with your short sighted concerns about inconvenienced friends. I think it more important to worry about tragic harm to innocents caught up in the meth scourge, thus I will not be addressing anymore of your personal concerns, nor illogical arguments. Sometimes you drive me nuts.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Aug 17, 2013, at 6:13 PM
  • Figure it out for yourself E., it is there if you can find it. It will be good mental exercise.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Aug 17, 2013, at 9:19 PM
  • I will give you a tip. Give the very best argument you can against your own assertion. It is a mental trick that tends to rid we fallible humans of the natural defensive mode we assume when we percieve we are being attacked, or otherwise forced on the defensive. There are times when it frees us to consider more of the content of our minds. Good luck.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Aug 17, 2013, at 9:34 PM
  • By the way I argue with myself all the time, sometimes at length before I type a word. I should do a better job of refuting those counter arguments in print as I type my assertions, just as I have done in my mind before beginning. However I too often can't resist seeing who knows what when responses are posted. ;)

    Kathy Fairchild, who has had a blog here, and used to comment frequently is a master of denouement preceded by dissection. She is not at all lazy as am I, nor as curious regarding readers, nor does she sometimes intentionally leave room for dissension just for grins. Go back in time, and read some of her stuff, you will see what I mean. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Aug 17, 2013, at 9:58 PM
  • A belated thanks ND for your comment of the 17th. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 12:21 AM
  • Why does there have to be only one 'perfect' solution? I, personally, think it is absurd to expect that one effort to curb meth is going to 'do the trick'... i.e. the standard behavior change regime goes something like limit/avoid access, educate, develop alternative behaviors, persist. While education and counseling work on some levels, limiting/avoiding access DO work on others, particularly in the initial stages.

    And yes, nicotine addiction certainly is the most powerful and deleterious addiction in this country but instead of treating it like the addiction it is, we treat it like an unwashed body, hold our breathes and look down our noses -- mostly because, like the drug companies, the tobacco lobby was so strong that getting it classified as a prescription drug was impossible.

    AND because of the tobacco lobby, it would be impossible to sue the drug companies for making pseudoephedrine so readily available.

    We will always have those who cannot resist the lure of the instant false relief of pleasure chemicals in the brain, by whatever means. But the argument that if one effort in one direction did not create perfect results, we should not bother to try at all is not sensible. By that standard, women would not have the vote, non-white people would not be full human beings, and people in western Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, Oklahoma, the Dakotas and Montana would still be snoozing at 55 down the Interstate highways.

    Personally, I prefer a method known as 'harm-reduction', which legalizes the distribution of addictive drugs thru medical clinics while providing education and care for addicts, thus reducing the need for criminal behaviors, is a sensible and effective route. However, since this country is only run for greed and profits, I have pretty much given up hope of sensible public policy solutions.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 8:15 AM
  • I'm sorry E., I am not going to waste any more time with you. I think you are one of those folks that just don't get it, that do not know the difference between apples, and oranges, and that they, along with limes, and lemons are all the same to you thus are all to be treated the same.

    You can sit tight proudly on your idealistic solution to all drug problems which doesn't have a chance in hell of coming about in one fell swoop, instead of adopting a pragmatic approach. I don't have time to waste on exchanges with you that only distract me from a positive, and possible endeavor. Sayonara.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 2:01 PM
  • The afterthought occurs to me that small people (which includes me) can make a difference only in small ways, and when resolute may sometimes affect small change. We can not majestically decree anything, even when our ideas are flawless.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 2:25 PM
  • You didn't hear me Empress, I am not responding to anything else you say on the subject. Quit wasting your time, as I will not allow you to waste any more of mine.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 2:28 PM
  • This would be really funny if it wasn't true.

    An apology letter to Mr. Obama

    http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/08/13/an-apology-letter-to-mr-obama/

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 10:56 PM
  • Empress - did you simply decide to ignore the first four paragraphs of my comments? My personal preference is one approach, but there ARE others, including reduction of access, as noted. I believe the point was that there can be several approaches - none will work in all cases but will work in many, and perhaps TOGETHER, will help to address the problem.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Aug 18, 2013, at 10:59 PM
  • rr3 your back! I'm sorry our mutual pal News Across isn't here to greet you. I know he would give you an excited, and hearty welcome. In lieu of that may I say welcome on his behalf. I even read the link you presented in honor of the friendship you two share. Unlike News, I don't care to comment.

    In case you missed it News proclaimed he was leaving the internet behind for a month beginning August 1st, and we have heard nary a word from him since. To get you fully up to speed there were rumors, or speculation of some sort, opining that News was going into hiding because of some posts that he had made in another forum that were allegedly incendiary. I myself don't know anything about that as I didn't seek to see the posts, though I have to consider the point that stories surrounding his demise may be slightly exagerrated. I think that I also read somewhere on this site that News had erased all his comments on that other site. It did seem that he was likely to return after the one month hiatus, though he did leave an element of doubt.

    I am sure that someone will pop up to fuss with you. Hey you may even bring WTF out of the woodwork, we haven't heard from him in a while. I know it is going to be tough on you old hoss to go a couple of weeks without News, but hang in there. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 19, 2013, at 12:04 AM
  • So, regardless of whether Obama has a clue what he is doing or not, at least we can count on the GOP to remain consistent in this age of uncertainty. Consistent in their misunderstanding of the economy, and consistently making misleading statements, that is.

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/14/another-bush-another-problem-with-obama-and-phony...

    -- Posted by countryman on Mon, Aug 19, 2013, at 9:50 AM
  • We have companies downsizing and going to more people working part time. Why? The low information crowd is blaming the company, the Republicans or even corporate greed but not Obama. His policies are destroying the private sector but yet he is never perceived as governing. He is constantly campaigning against the very things his policies are causing. The low information crowd can't see when all they listen to is the low information media. Why do intelligent people allow themselves to be so uninformed and lied too?

    It's easy! It takes no courage to be a liberal. You can believe whatever they want to tell you. They lie to you and you believe it. Without any proof or evidence. It's really sad for our country because liberals will not see the truth until they figure out they are going down with the ship the same as everyone else.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Aug 19, 2013, at 9:37 PM
  • Locked In The Big Top

    It seems the circus came to town, and now will not leave.

    Monkey business is all there is, and there is no reprieve.

    Sometimes I grow despondent, and concerned beyond compare,

    about the proliferation of trained monkeys every where.

    I ponder, I wrack my brain, I stew,

    as they bounce about with monkey shouts I don't know what to do.

    I scratch my head as I watch them with open mouth I gape,

    as I begin to realize; not yet evolved, an actual great ape. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 19, 2013, at 9:51 PM
  • rr,

    Im glad to see your still complaining about our President. My advice to you would be to stop supporting the Tea party crowd and ideology and then voting in an ex liberal governor as your party's nominee and then expect people to take him seriously. Either that or just get used to seeing liberals or Democrats elected to the highest position in our government.

    -- Posted by cheesehead on Mon, Aug 19, 2013, at 10:58 PM
  • One thing about the reign of president santa claus is that it is easier to identify the low information crowd. We have an information disparity in this country that should bother us more then an income disparity.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 5:53 AM
  • Funny, I have thought for the past 20 years or so that the low information crowd was on the Red State side of the line.

    I reckon that door swings both ways, eh?

    For example, if Rush Limbaugh can make a living spewing his anti-intellectual crap to a believing audience, then I think we can rest assured which side suffers from "low information."

    "If you believe in God, you can't believe in climate change."

    "Mission Accomplished"

    " All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it -- that that's an entitlemnt."

    I rest my case.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 7:37 AM
  • Speaking of Red State geniuses. OKR's state, and News' adopted homeland, both made it into this tragedy of modern life.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/20/20102447-bored-teenagers-gun-down-col...

    New lows in the bad parenting category or just a sign of more stupidity by teenagers?

    I wonder how we can blame this on Obama? I'm sure some Okie politicians are asking themselves that question as I type this.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 7:42 AM
  • Here we see the typical response of the low information crowd while thinking they know it all. I quess they do know all that the low information media tells them and they are told to dismiss any other information. You see it doesn't matter to the low information crowd if what they are told is a lie or not because they will never question it. They believe in climate change because they don't believe in God, they are desperate to believe in something and it can be anything but God. Even I believe in climate change, the climate has been changing for thousands of years without us but they want us to believe it is changing now is because of us. Low common sense goes along with low information. If you lack information then you lack the capacity for common sense and rationality.

    Example the low information crowd believes that co2 is the cause for global warming but yet it is less then one half of one percent of the atmosphere. We also find that more warming occured before 1940 before any significant co2 increase. Data shows that temperature rise occurs after a co2 increase, not caused by it. The sun, clouds and water vapor have far more influence on any warming or cooling than co2 ever has. Why do you think it is so important for politicians to change our economy and our way of life to control something that is doing nothing to warm or cool us? Information is the answer, read scientist that don't promote the government agenda. Read a book that is base solely about the data while not trying to prove something. The information is out there but the low information media will not tell you about it.

    I will leave you with one quesion. Why are liberals always dealing with a crisis that never seems to get fixed?

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 12:30 PM
  • "I will leave you with one quesion (sic). Why are liberals always dealing with a crisis that never seems to get fixed?" -rr3

    The short answer r is that it is because conservatives are continually creating new crises, and exacerbating existing ones.

    Glad your back r, you have been around here so long that it leaves a hole when you are gone. I'll be glad when News gets back, and bet that you will be too. I miss you guys gettting after each other. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 1:34 PM
  • I don't think liberals are the low information crowd. I mean, rr3yvo, you say that they believe in a human cause for climate change because they don't believe in God. Logically, that's a step I see no proof of. You seem to be saying that no one who believes in God believes that humans are altering the climate. I doubt that's true. And your arguments for why liberals are wrong are unsupported - which exaggerates how unconvincing they are.

    Instead, you could look at an article like this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130515203048.htm. It describes the result of a study of peer-reviewed scientific papers published in the last 21 years on the cause of climate change. 97% of the ones that took a position said that it is human-caused.

    Scientific Daily is hardly the main stream media. And the study of the literature was led by John Cook of the University of Queensland. Cook is a winner of the Eureka prize from the Australian Museum - and he doesn't seem low information to me. Why is it unquestioning, irrational or indicative of low common sense to think Cook might know something, since he's studied the literature?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 3:05 PM
  • And by the way, this is the one that scares me: http://www.businessinsider.com/more-co2-in-earths-atmosphere-than-ever-2013-5. It reports on the fact that in May, the measured CO2 levels on Mauna Loa were higher than they had ever been in human history.

    That scares me silly. The air on planet earth is now different than it's ever been with live humans on the planet? That means that no one has ever seen whether an atmosphere like that is healthy for us.

    I find that very unsettling. Don't you?

    I mean, looking at it rationally, I'd say that the possible risks of doing nothing about a changing atmosphere could be catastrophically high - much higher than the risk of limiting carbon emissions and then finding out it wasn't a problem. Just ask an insurance company. Ask the US military. They're adjusting their risk scenarios to consider climate change.

    I mean, the cost of a bicycle helmet is low. I probably won't have a wreck, but outcomes for people who are in wrecks are seriously better for people who wear helmets. So when I consider that I could have a wreck, the risk of being thrown from the bike, landing on my head and dying seems huge compared to the risk of laying out the money for the helmet. Seems like common sense to me to buy it.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 3:32 PM
  • Havetosay,

    Rush Limbaugh told rr3 that you couldn't believe in God if you believed in man-made climate change, so he regurgitated it here.

    Your logic and reason based arguments will be lost on the conservative talking head lovers I fear.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 4:00 PM
  • Perhaps one of our conservative contributors could forward this link to Mr. Limbaugh.

    Of course how can you trust an unreliable source like the 165 year old Scientific American magazine, eh?

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/section.cfm?id=climatewire

    The debate over the validity of man-made climate change has long been settled. To say otherwise is folly. Limbaugh has run out of junk science to rave on about, so now it's down to "You can't believe in God if you believe in human caused global warming."

    I suggest rr3 read all the articles under the attached link and then get back to us. As a 30 year subscriber I have read them all already. Amazingly, not one expert has brought up the God vs. Climate Science argument in all that time.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 4:14 PM
  • ...or this one.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-advanced.htm

    So, can we put the "humans aren't causing global warming" fallacy to rest yet?

    Wait, maybe that 2% of papers (funded by the various Koch tentacles) are really right where virtually every other scientist is wrong, eh?

    Yeah, that's the ticket....

    Neo-cons crack me up.

    -- Posted by countryman on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 4:20 PM
  • Thanks countryman, great links.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 4:37 PM
  • Wow a breath of fresh air (strained pun intended). Thanks HTS, and cm.

    In defense of rr3 I have to say that though I disagree with him on nearly everything, he exhibits some decorum as he brings unadulterated "Rush", Fox, and fundamentalist Christianity to these blogs.

    His barbs are usually general, focused against those that he sees as the body of opposition, not singling out individuals. He also sets the table for informed content to be served, just as he has done now. Go rr3!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 20, 2013, at 5:12 PM
  • The following link is to an article that explores the myriad reasons conservatives can't seem to stomach the truth about climate change.

    http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/08/can-climate-science-be-rendered-c...

    To summarize, it's because Al Gore was the one to make it a public issue, and we all know that if you want to be a good neo-con, you have to hate Al Gore. Additionally, if we want to take a crack at resolving the problem, it will take both action and compromise, two things neo-cons seem to be incapable of today.

    -- Posted by countryman on Wed, Aug 21, 2013, at 7:47 AM
  • It makes me want to puke to think that some American People will believe these Politicians and not believe in Science?

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, Aug 21, 2013, at 5:45 PM
  • Good link countryman. It highlights that there is just no dealing these days with the folks that are now masquerading as the Republican Party. As the article concluded we are just going to have to let it burn out before anything gets done.

    I believe that extends to every critical issue, not just climate change. The radicals are going to crash, and burn, the only question is when. Maybe the Republican party will regain its equilibrium, maybe not. Either way sometime within the next ten years what it is today will not be what it must become.

    The shape of that could go in several directions, from a dwindling to insignificance, followed by the death of the party a la the Whig Party experience replaced by a conglomeration of independents under a new party banner, to a late bloomimg recognition that they are going to have to move back toward the center to be a player featuring pragmatism instead of idealism. Even our dumbed down populace will in desperation surely awaken at some point forcing the issue. Man can not live by tea alone no matter the drug that doctors it.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 21, 2013, at 8:53 PM
  • Life would be bewildering to we older folks in this age of digital devotion were it not for the comical aspects of it. Especially concerning the unparalleled devotion to hand held devices.

    I can not help noting when out to dinner that at nearly every table of younger folks at least one will be sitting there, one or both hands under the table, looking down, and occasionally smiling at the results of the endeavor. I then think to myself that we would not have dared to so brazenly breach decorum by doing that in our day, and may even have been accused of public indecency.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Aug 21, 2013, at 9:48 PM
  • It's amazing to me that all of the walking the line of the Law,the Politician's are doing and the People just shake their heads! You know when Politic can do what's going on in Detroit,(not just Detroit),South Carolina,North Carolina! Drawing up the lines were ever they want in a lot of States,Texas,Virginia! If they have to go out and blatantly cheat,making it harder harder for People to Vote,what chance do we have, to have a Democracy? It's all a big joke! And if DO,RR,AND ANY OF THE REST OF YOU THAT DON'T SEE IT,YOU BETTER SEE IF THERE ISN'T A BLANK SPOT IN YOUR HEAD SOMEWERE! Evidently you been took all your life! I would love to be a Car Salesman, and have you as Customers!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Aug 22, 2013, at 12:36 AM
  • Creepy Crawlers

    Bed bugs may be an awful terribly pernicious thing,

    and no one likes the misery that they always bring,

    but they are not the critters that we should most despise,

    for we can always see them right before our eyes.

    Beware the creepy crawlers for they are every where.

    They sneak into your computer and know all that's there.

    They know what you're saying even on your phone.

    Your words are the government's not just your own.

    You think you've done nothing so don't need to hide,

    but it's the government, not you who will decide.

    It is an outrage that the master of this attack,

    the King of creepy critters is none other than Barack.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 22, 2013, at 12:08 PM
  • Now Do, you know that I know all those things. I'll not say more because it would be silly for two old men to argue that the other doesn't know what he says he knows. We have done enough of that so I will have none of that. I expect you feel the same.

    As for stating Obama was master that is true broadly defined, surely so in your mind as well. Don't forget poetic license.

    Definition of master (n)

    Bing Dictionary

    [ mástər ]

    1.boss: especially formerly, a man in a position of authority, e.g. over a business or servants

    2.somebody in control: somebody or something controlling or influencing events or other things

    3.abstract control: an abstract idea or force that is thought of as having control or influence

    Thank you very much for the compliment. Have a great evening my friend, I intend to. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 22, 2013, at 7:02 PM
  • DO when you spend your time hurling accusations and recriminations you are wasting your time.

    Can you never let go of the nastiness? Your prospects would be more promising if you could. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 22, 2013, at 7:08 PM
  • One of the things that you said DO caught my eye. "Sure, impeach him, to set an example, but the true crimes are being committed at levels way above Obama. That's where our attention should be."

    Yes, yes, and yes.

    I suppose that you will disagree with me as to how that may be accomplished, nevertheless it is an opportunity for civil discourse that may result in each of us broadening our horizons regarding potentialities.

    The folks at the very top of the hierarchy, wherever that is above the level of government leaders are well insulated from direct assault. I believe that they may be more easily brought down by reining in the level of the hierarchy just below them. That will take the flow upward that is their lifeblood away from them.

    Impeaching Obama is a step in the that direction, as is similiarly smacking down the leaders of the legislative branch.

    The third leg of support for the top dogs is the financial machine, and they must be harnessed, and driven toward activity that is good for all the people, not just those at the top. We must reimpose those regulations that kept our society on an even keel for forty years. That ended with a burst of deregulation starting in the seventies and continuing even today.

    In my opinion we must revive Glass-Stegall as a bare minimum starting point. Then we must repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley of 1999 that consolidated many erosions of regulation over the years under one big tent. The Securities Act of 1933, and the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 must have their teeth restored.

    Finally the income tax rate on the rich needs to be returned to the levels it was during those universally acclaimed golden years of America (at least for white folks) the 1950s into the 1970s. It worked once for all, and would work for all again. That will yank the rug out from under the feet of the controllers.

    Finally we absolutely must in every way get all private money out of elections. We must shorten campaign periods, and give all viable candidates for national office equal time, and opportunity to present themselves, and their ideas to the citizenry.

    I am sure that your ideas are much different than mine. I am interested in hearing what specific changes you believe should be made, just as I have specifically addressed the problems. Then if possible, lets discuss not just the differences, but how, and why our differing ideas may be melded to present an even stronger route to recovery.

    I am embarrassed that we two old men in what should be our more rational years have acted more like school yard kids with a chip on our shoulders, than any semblance of those with age obtained wisdom. This may be our last chance to redeem ourselves. What say you?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Aug 22, 2013, at 10:58 PM
  • My choice for President Dennis Kucinich : "Abolish NSA and give Snowden a ticker tape parade."

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130819/01445524226/rep-dennis-kucinich-abolis...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Aug 23, 2013, at 12:26 AM
  • DO - this story about Mr. Belton, the vet who was killed, is awful, but what's it got to do with Trayvon Martin?

    Martin was shot and killed. There was no mystery about who shot him, everyone agreed it was George Zimmerman, but Zimmerman wasn't charged with any crime. That's what got other people involved.

    It looks from this article that the police have caught one of the people they think killed Mr. Belton and are looking for the other. I expect they will be charged with murder. I can see getting involved if no one is charged even though there is a clear case, but otherwise what needs to be done?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Aug 23, 2013, at 12:18 PM
  • Do any off you remember the old Platters song the "Great Pretender"? Here it is on youtube with lyrics. I suggest clicking the link first to get a feel for the song, and to see the actual lyrics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PkkblZiGNg

    Here is a parody of the song, see if it reminds you of anyone. I can think of a couple of people who will definitely say that it reminds them of me. I am thinking that the most of the rest of you will think it reminds them of someone else. ;)

    Oh-oh, yes I'm the great offender

    Offending is what I do well.

    My need is such I offend too much

    I'm offensive and glad one can tell.

    Oh-oh yes I'm the great offender

    Adrift in a world of my own

    I've played the game and feel no shame

    You've left me to offend all alone

    So real do I feel when I deceive

    Unreal is my spiel as I strive to conceal

    Yes, I'm the great offender

    Just laugh and say up is down

    I am to be what I am you see

    I'm sure my heart has a frown

    Offending and you're still around

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Aug 24, 2013, at 1:21 AM
  • For those of you who strongly subscribe to some of the "conspiracy theories" you can't seem to get out of your head, you might find this article helpful in understanding your problem and just how far you could end up going if you keep heading down that road:

    "Schizophrenics used to see demons and spirits. Now they talk about actors and hidden cameras -- and make a lot of sense"

    http://www.aeonmagazine.com/altered-states/how-reality-caught-up-with-paranoid-d...

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Aug 25, 2013, at 7:46 AM
  • It is my belief that those of you who are totally on George Zimmerman's side have at the very least a form of repressed racism, and for many, not repressed at all. How could any compassionate human being not identify with your son or grandson going thru those difficult teenage years and being gunned down by some wanna be cop whose precinct is a neighborhood watch. My white children and grandchildren want to be "cool" and often exhibit behavior I don't condone, but not worthy of ever being confronted by some little *rick with a gun and backed up by the state's "stand your ground" rule. If you can't identify with that young person just walking back to his home being profiled as wrong, then you have racist tendencies. I bet every individual who has posted here claiming to be on George Zimmerman's side has used the N word often at least in the past and probably still do around special friends. And often, those same racist tendencies show up with those who are big NRA supporters who don't even want to consider a ban on their survivalist cache of assault weapons. You can claim you don't have a racist bone in your body, but that would be a lie.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Aug 25, 2013, at 8:00 AM
  • That's an interesting article, RT. The weird thing about it, though, is that one of the things it talks about is that, although people with delusions do cast their fantasies in the context of the modern world - people spying on them, invisible rays passing through them, magnetic brain implants, etc - a lot of those things do exist. Recent NSA revelations are a case in point. So, unfortunately, I don't think things can be dismissed just by calling them "conspiracy theories." Sure, some conspiracy theories are crazy, but that doesn't mean that real conspiracies don't exist. I'm afraid you have to evaluate based on the news you can find - and what you think is credible. Which is ridiculously time-consuming.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Aug 25, 2013, at 12:52 PM
  • Have to say: "I don't think things can be dismissed just by calling them "conspiracy theories." Sure, some conspiracy theories are crazy, but that doesn't mean that real conspiracies don't exist. I'm afraid you have to evaluate based on the news you can find - and what you think is credible. Which is ridiculously time-consuming."

    Agree. However, all conspiracy theories should be considered extremely doubtful until there is good reason (proof) to back them up. Unfortunately, most of those who I have accused to subscribing to them are those who jump to conclusions where there is no evidence even after much investigation. Also, the word theory in that context is totally different than used in scientific "theory", of which many bloggers here and in the religion blog do not really understand. They should probably be called conspiracy fearists.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Aug 25, 2013, at 6:16 PM
  • RT,

    I would say that your post about the Zimmerman's supporters is true. Some people think that a person has to actively discriminate against a group to be considered racist. When the truth is that prejudice is more prevalent in racism these days.

    -- Posted by cheesehead on Sun, Aug 25, 2013, at 9:24 PM
  • Do

    You can tow your party line and bear false witness all you want, but that doesn't exactly make you correct.

    I know many leftist/liberal people that own guns and don't support disarming anybody accept crazy people. The truth is that there is a firearm in over 90% of households in this country and they are not all right wingers like you want to convince people.

    Its polls that suggest that a majority of Americans support background checks on guns even though the right wing media tells you otherwise. So before you go and listen to Rush then decide to spread falsehoods, do some research please.

    http://www.people-press.org/2013/01/14/in-gun-control-debate-several-options-dra...

    -- Posted by cheesehead on Mon, Aug 26, 2013, at 9:15 PM
  • News Across your month off the information grid is less than a week from ending. I hope to see you back here soon. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Aug 26, 2013, at 11:17 PM
  • DO - I'm glad to hear that you don't equate gun control with a police state. Your post seemed to be doing that. I'd also like to remind you that gun control doesn't mean disarming everybody. And, though I don't speak for all leftists, I've read and heard a lot of commentary from the left & have yet to hear anybody praising a police state - and I haven't heard much about taking away all the guns, either. In fact, there are a lot of leftists involved in fighting the police state - from NDAA detention provisions, to NSA data collection, overuse of prison, the lack of civilian review boards for police, the assault on network neutrality, the Patriot Act and stop-and-frisk. How do you feel about the police pepper-spraying peaceful Occupy protesters? Isn't that the action of a police state? The left was pretty outraged about that.

    Most leftists (or at least the ones I've read & talked to) just don't think hand guns or semi-automatic weapons are going to help in a conflict with a police state that has armed drones, riot gear, etc. It seems like a better idea for the people (that's us) to adopt and enforce rules about what that police state can or can't do to harass and dominate us - and rules about where, when & who can have a gun. I mean, it's illegal to have a nuclear missile. Does that mean freedom is being trampled on? (And, by the way, is the police state a big, bad thug or an overprotective nanny? Your post is confusing me.)

    You accuse me of race-baiting. And then you talk about race-baiting for the murder of George Zimmerman. Just to be clear, are you accusing me of trying to get Zimmerman killed - or of making that more likely even if I didn't intend it? I could just as easily accuse you of race-baiting for the murder of as many hoodie-wearing black male teenagers as possible because you think they're a bunch of scary criminals. I don't think either accusation helps the discussion.

    I think that if you want to have a gun, you should have to go through a background check in case you're a lunatic or a criminal - and it wouldn't hurt for you to have to carry liability insurance in case someone is hurt or killed with your gun. I have to have that insurance for my car.

    And regarding ghetto streets at night? I've walked there because I've lived there - and I didn't carry a gun because I didn't think it would make me safer. And just like you don't want me or Jesse Jackson making decisions for you about your safety, I don't want you making decisions for me about mine. The best we can do in a democracy is go by what the majority of people think. Polling on this issue shows that most people aren't for taking away everybody's guns (and, in fact, I'm not either), but they do think background checks and some restrictions on buying guns are reasonable. But Congress gets tons of campaign money from the gun industry, which it makes from "ginning up the racial divide", as you call it, and stoking up everybody's fear of crime (and the police state) so that they can sell as many guns and as much ammo as possible. And when people decide they want strict laws in their own states, criminals just get the guns from jurisdictions that will sell a gun to anyone who can breathe, and has the money. That's who's putting my family in danger, not some huge wave of Trayvon Martin revenge killers that exist in somebody's overheated imagination. And I'm tired of having my safety and the safety of my family decided by the NRA and their tools.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Aug 27, 2013, at 2:48 PM
  • DO: "RT, you make unsupported assertions that lead to unfounded conclusions."

    Sometimes it is just an opinion. I can't prove you have racist tendencies. Do you categorically deny that? Can you prove you don't have negative racist feelings?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Aug 28, 2013, at 3:29 AM
  • SD: "Tea Party is ... co-mingling of fundamentalist religion, fringe conspiracy theory, and veiled racism."

    That is exactly the problem with them, and nobody in the GOP will stand up for sanity any longer. What happened to the party my dad liked, the one that was interested mostly in fiscal responsibility? Now it is all about the primary and the locals have to stay radical on social issues to keep from losing the primary, at least that is what they think. There is a fairly large percentage of fiscal conservatism in the minority groups, but the GOP has alienated them so much they now have to kowtow to all the various fringe groups. And, there are several states where it is that group that is keeping them in power and the states are turning back the clock on all the social progressive gains we've made as a country over the last century. And they just won't let it go. They have so much overt hatred for Obama that they'd be willing to have a revolution to change things their way by force. They have a lot of sick and mean-spirited people they've gone to bed with. Several bloggers here represent that group well.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Aug 28, 2013, at 6:04 PM
  • -- Posted by NDII on Thu, Aug 29, 2013, at 7:31 PM
  • SD: "So, apparently all they can bring to the party today is a heavy reliance on emotional issues based in mythology, lots of billionaire contributors, and a plethora of millionaire talking heads on tv, radio, and the internet."

    That is 100 pct spot on SD! One item missing that probably would go under "emotional issues" is that many poor and hardworking people believe that most social networks are just giving money away to the freeloaders, and in their racist minds are mainly blacks. They are more than willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of working to keep the bath water as clean as possible.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 7:54 AM
  • Here's something else the GOP can be proud of (sarcasm of course):

    "Nearly 20 Percent Of Scientists Contemplate Moving Overseas Due in Part To Sequestration"

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/sequestration-scientists_n_3825128.html

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 8:10 AM
  • This one hits politics and religion square on the nose, from someone well respected:

    "Bill Nye: Firebrand for Science - Aims to Change the World"

    http://youtu.be/DXLdcqIj-SA

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 8:58 AM
  • News, welcome back!

    "I guess I didn't have to say anything for you to know my opinion of Obama's newest war plans -- I oppose all wars."

    What is the threshold for military action for you? Is there a point where using chemical weapons against civilians (especially children) would justify going to war in your mind?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 9:02 AM
  • We can not and should not Police the World! We have to take care of our own Country! Our Country is going to HELL! Also, we are hated by everyone now. These other Countries would spit on us if we needed them? Most want us too fail.

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 12:14 PM
  • I seen where they came up with statistics that say that 58% of Americans are on the take? I would like to see that broke down? Does that include S.S.Disability,Unemployment,Retirements? What are they talking about?

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 12:30 PM
  • news - welcome back! hope your hiatus was productive ;) sounds like it!

    I enjoyed the PM's Questions the other day... the Brits LOUDLY determined NOT to jump into this... too bad we don't have a similar body... our pathetically bought jerks are all on vacation - AGAIN.

    -- Posted by NDII on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 7:09 PM
  • My mind is getting as numb as the People in Washington! For the life of me, i can not remember were the Commentary came from! I do know it wasn't FOX,i don't watch or listen to it. I"ve serched too. Good to see you bach NEWS!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Aug 31, 2013, at 10:38 PM
  • Hey News welcome back pal! Sounds like your week has been much better than mine. I endured prepping for a colonoscopy, and underwent same. You might say I have been rushed to no good end this week. ;)

    Oh yeh, actually all was well in the end.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 12:55 AM
  • I have very mixed emotions on our retaliation to Syria for their using chemical weapons on their own people, inflicting unimaginable pain and suffering on women and children. First, I don't agree with News' statements that pretty much sounds like no action for any reason ever (I'm sure he will tell me if I am misunderstanding). I believe it is analogous to being at a public park and your family is enjoying a picnic and another family is nearby with what appears to be a very abusive father, slapping his wife and screaming and spanking the kids. The tough decision is knowing at what point you should step in or if you should step in. Of course we can call the police instead of acting ourselves. In this case the police are totally inept and frankly don't have the power or will to act. It's not a perfect analogy, but a moral question we should all be able to understand. In this case, we are bigger and stronger than the perpetrator, and we've been around the block (maybe too much) and really there is no need to allow someone to beat up on their own children or stepchildren. In my opinion, regardless of the inept police, I think I should go over there and smack the guy upside the head and ask him how he likes it. How should we react?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 7:59 AM
  • Inaction can be just as wrong as over reaction. There is a fine line that can separate our view on what should be done.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 8:02 AM
  • I don't know where the 58% number came from, but here's a breakdown of recent data from the Tax Policy Center at the Brookings Institute: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

    It looks like now, 43.3% don't pay income tax (down from Romney's famous 47% claim). Most of them do pay payroll tax, though, and sales tax, gasoline tax, property tax, etc.

    Regarding the 58% number, the Heritage Foundation recently publicized a poll they'd done saying that 57% of Americans supported de-funding Obamacare. They did research in 10 Republican-leaning districts & the poll was trashed widely (Washington Post here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/08/15/heritages-junk-poll...). At around the same time, (Aug. 2013) Kaiser came out with a poll saying that 57% of people OPPOSED de-funding Obamacare: http://kff.org/health-reform/poll-finding/kaiser-health-tracking-poll-august-201... (search "57" within the doc & you find the data about how many oppose de-funding). This is the only really recent reference I've come up with to the 57 or 58% number. Earlier this year, 58% of Americans were found by CBS/New York Times polling to oppose the collection of phone records by the government and ABC/Washington Post found that 58% thought gay marriage should be legal.

    The whole thing begs the question, though, of what is meant by "on the take". I'd think that no-bid contracts, tax subsidies for certain industries (fossil fuel, for example) and things like that would apply. Is that part of what is meant by "on the take"? Hard to say.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 11:07 AM
  • Thanks for the Polls my friends! It's seems it's who's taking the poll.And my trust in any of them, is a big zero! I would like to see it itemized by People you can trust,if there is such a Group?

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 2:45 PM
  • Glad you're back, News. I was going to post addresses for places where you can do a secure search & browsers that don't keep your records, but some of them have been shut down - or have closed on their own. You can still search at https://www.startpage.com/, which is better than most, I think.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 5:52 PM
  • DO, you don't appear to understand where the analogy can slip back and forth between a personal family and countries.

    "In your analogy you are bigger and stronger than the perpetrator.. oops! You don't even know who the perpetrator is!"

    The perpetrator is Assad.

    DO: "you are the last person to be making a moral (logistical) decision on anything."

    And what makes you come to this conclusion about me DO? Do you feel your moral decsions are superior to mine or others because of some religious text you try to interpret making you more moral?

    DO: "In my opinion, I think you are a fool."

    Let me counter a little less rudely in that I think you are acting out of fear and naivety. We know who to "smack" and we know how to pinpoint a missile with the chance of very little collateral damage, with no comparison to blowing up chemical weapons in residential neighborhoods killing hundreds of innocent civilians. That is what we should have done in Iraq and then just left them to think about their actions. But now we are afraid to do the right thing because of very bad decisions with Iraq

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 8:59 PM
  • News, I do admire pacifists, but there are times when someone needs to stand up for them and the innocent children. Pacifist ultimately have to rely on activists to sway public opinion or to take direct action in their favor. Ask the Jews if they think pacifism might have helped them against Hitler. Tell me how you think pacifism will help the Syrian people against Assad?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 9:08 PM
  • It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the C.I.A. could Create this kind of chaos in Syria, and make it look like an internal attack? Get our A%&* out of there? War is hell, but the u.S.A.can't take care of what's happening in our own Land!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 1, 2013, at 9:37 PM
  • I see the same thing that brought us into the Iraq debacle playing out again.

    The United Nations is conducting a thorough investigation of the gas attack in Syria. They are requesting that the United States, and the other potential belligerents to please wait until they have completed their investigation before initiating retaliatory killing. It appears we are about to once again ignore the request of the world's only peacekeeping establishment.

    Are we not now again on a precipice hauntingly familiar to the build up before the invasion of Iraq? A war started by rush to judgement, and falsehoods. Please remember that the U. N. was forced to leave Iraq, not because their investigation was concluded, but because we moved to destroy Iraq.

    We are sadly, as is far too often the case, repeating the same thing over again expecting different results. I suppose we really are afflicted by national insanity.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 12:13 AM
  • On cue the mainstream news is beating the war drums. Here is the current headline, and sub headline from NBC News:

    'The time has come':

    'Arab leaders demand Syria action'

    "After Obama's surprise decision to seek Congress' approval before intervening in Syria, a chorus of Arab states is calling for swift punishment of the Assad regime's "war criminals," while other key players waver."

    This "reporting" was based on a Sunday meeting of the Arab League in Cairo. Upon reading the article I found that the "chorus of Arab states" cited, was actually Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, that is a duet, not a chorus. Lebanon, Iraq, Algeria, and Egypt among other members do not hold that opinion.

    Don't we have very close ties to Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan? Oh yea we do, but that's irrelevant, and pigs fly. Here's the link to the NBC propaganda: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/01/20280931-arab-states-call-for-inte...

    The New York Times had a more balanced report, likely because they were stung so badly by their naivete' during the fraudulent build up to the Iraq War, and their subsequent vow that they would not be fooled again. Here it is, a must read for contrast with NBC's tool of war approach. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/02/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-syria-military-a...

    Curiously I found nothing on Al Jazeera America about the Arab League Meeting. Hmmm?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 1:14 AM
  • The US turned our head the other way when Iraq used chemical weapons on Iran. We are by no means innocent in past actions and will continue to do immoral things because of the politics. That being said, does not mean we are always wrong. Nor does it mean that whatever actions we take are going to be wrong.

    OKR: "We are sadly, as is far too often the case, repeating the same thing over again expecting different results. I suppose we really are afflicted by national insanity."

    I could agree with you if we were to put boots on the ground AND leave them there and try to police Syria. I believe we have learned out lesson in that regard, at least for the next decade or so. What we DID learn was that we cannot police a state once we topple it, or at least that was our biggest downfall with Iraq. Iraq had to be stopped as it was trying to take over the region. The weapons of mass destruction were never found and thus using that as an excuse to invade them turned out to be bogus. We could not let them invade and take Kuwait. It is what we did marching to Bagdad that we need to be very careful not to repeat. Using the Ostrich's approach is not the answer either; we tried that at first with WWII. Yes, there is a lot to be learned on both sides of aggression versus pacifism, and neither extreme will work. It is a tough and delicate balance to do the right thing, and like most things, the answer lies somewhere around the middle.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 7:30 AM
  • News: "As an American I like to bare in mind the following bit of traditional wisdom: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

    I personally liked the way Bush said it at about 58 seconds into this hilarious "best of" clip :-)

    http://youtu.be/8Ux3DKxxFoM

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 7:35 AM
  • RT I am not advocating an "ostrich approach" wherein we ignore what is happening in Syria, nor even, at least at this point, that we take no action regarding the poisonings in Syria.

    What I am advocating is an avoidance of a rush to judgment.

    In my opinion we are fools twice over if we do not await the outcome of the U. N. investigation into the use of poison gas in Syria. We should take heed that our best pal in bullydom, Britain, has said "not this time old boy".

    A further thought on hiding one's head in the sand as is attributed to ostrichs; I believe it a better analogy in this instance that if we jump in immediately it is because we have never taken our collective head out of the sand since before the Iraq invasion. Elsewise the light of day would be profoundly effecting this chillingly similiar situation.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 12:19 PM
  • Thanks News re: NYT v. NBC. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 12:24 PM
  • News, you are correct that pacifism is not in and of itself extreme. Pacifism as a non-action would be the extreme. I am referring to those who claim to be pacifists but only avoid conflict and not try to take some action. Tell me if you think the US declaring war on Japan and Germany was the right thing or not and how that would sit with a pacifist?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 2:12 PM
  • OKR: "What I am advocating is an avoidance of a rush to judgment."

    I can buy into this for awhile as well. But then what if all evidence then points to Assad and chemical weapon use? At least by waiting some, we might then gain a larger number of partners who may wish to take some punitive action. Are you buying into total pacifism, or is there a point you think might justify punitive action, and what point is that?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 2:15 PM
  • RT idealistically I advocate total pacificism, and will always promote its too often unexplored alternatives to killing. I am also a realist, and am of the opinion that it is likely human kind has a blood lust that can not be denied, nor stymied.

    Thus I am resigned to advocating the least harmful pragmatic solution in many instances. I believe that there are tools that further that position. Among them are careful deliberation with pause to consider possibilities, and avoiding rush to judgment fueled by blood lust, and the machinations of an industry based war machine. As a general rule I believe carefully nuanced responses are superior to all out reactions. All out reactions are always available as a last resort, and should be reserved for that only. Also, vengeance should never be the motivation for primary response.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 2:49 PM
  • Hmmm News. I am going to ponder that one for a bit. It may be a reasonable assertion. I must consider what caused the development of the warrior class, and sort out a few other thoughts provoked by your comment. Good comment.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 2, 2013, at 9:32 PM
  • I love pacificts. In fact if there is anyone who is a true, 100% at all times pacifist, please post your address here along with a picture of all female relatives. I could use some new stuff and some concubines....... ;)

    By the way, this also means no calling the cops. After all, that is just supporting violence by proxy.

    -- Posted by Armour-of-God on Tue, Sep 3, 2013, at 7:30 AM
  • "In my opinion we are fools twice over if we do not await the outcome of the U. N. investigation"

    UN? those people are a worthless joke. Even when they Do take action, it is to just stand around and watch more people die. Their rules of engagement are so restrictive that you almost have to be hit by a bullet that came from someone you can ID by name and birthdate before you can return fire

    -- Posted by Armour-of-God on Tue, Sep 3, 2013, at 12:46 PM
  • Armour-Of-God, I don't think you have assurance that the female relatives are pacifists. And I don't see any requirement on their part not to call the cops - unless they're not people at all, just news' possessions. Kidnap and rape are pretty serious crimes and the females might feel that, since they're the ones in danger of violence against them, what news believes - or you believe - is sort of beside the point.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 3, 2013, at 2:37 PM
  • Actually, I was thinking more of calling the cops. Armour-of-God tried to put that off limits, it not being pacifist, but I was pointing out that it was news who was the pacifist, not his relatives. He doesn't control their actions.

    The movie "Witness" addressed the problem by calling the entire community together so that if anybody committed a crime, there would be hundreds of witnesses. It was a powerful deterrent.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 3, 2013, at 4:21 PM
  • News, The character Kwai Chang Caine is the kind of pacifist I admire:

    http://youtu.be/lKMgceSkqrY

    I think this is more like what OKR is advocating though? :-)

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Sep 3, 2013, at 6:46 PM
  • I have seen here and heard many other places how if we get involved in Syria, that it will kickstart World War 3. Could someone please explain to me exactly how surgical drone strike, bombing, or even full on invasion will start WWIII? neither the Russians or the Chinese are going to respond militarily, and without them, there is no threat of this becoming a full on global conflict.

    -- Posted by Armour-of-God on Wed, Sep 4, 2013, at 9:13 AM
  • AoG - Sad to say but Russia is waiting to see what we do and China is always ready to go at the slightest flinch. So - yes - it could be the beginning of something big. Make no mistake - this is a spitting contest in the corner of the play-yard. But this play-yard is the middle-east with a chance that it could reach a much larger geographic area. I'd say if it begins action will reach - at least - into Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, and Russia. The choice of who to support is also cloudy - the one who gasses babies and civilians or the one who eats the hearts out (literally) of his enemies? Tough choice I'd say.

    -- Posted by gentle ben on Wed, Sep 4, 2013, at 1:39 PM
  • Pope Frankie ain't buyin' this Syrian B. S. either News. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/04/vatican-syria-peace-vigil_n_3864827.htm...

    Darned if I'm not beginnin' to think that the best candidate won in the recent Pope election, despite your obvious virtues News. ;)

    If I am still around in 2016 I will think twice before voting for the Democratic Party's Presidential candidate. If it is one that is gungho for this Syrian shenanigan it will be a no go.

    Of course it is a given that I won't be voting instead for the Republican candidate. All I have to look forward to from them is another clown parade. I hope they can pull that off again. It was hilarious. In fact it may be an even better side show because they are likely this next time to even bring a fat man along with all the clowns. The only thing that could make that any better would be to bring the eloquent George W. Bush back as the barker. The Repubs were so leery of him last time that they would barely let him peek in under the back of the tent.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 4, 2013, at 6:25 PM
  • News: "Its my understanding that anti-war activist-turned-warmonger, the "honorable," Mr. John Kerry assures us that no American troops will be sent to Syria. Would all those who believe that line of warmonger Kerry's please signify so now by standing on your head?"

    Come on News, make it a little easier. Can't I just raise my hand? I believe it. I believe we are going to use some form of the "stick" as punishment for Assad's cruel use of chemical weapons on innocent children and he deserves it. I also believe we will not have boots on the ground, but obviously it is possible that things could escalate. News, do we have a bet on the boots on the ground in Syria? I say no way, what do you say?

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Sep 5, 2013, at 6:36 PM
  • "Like lemmings to the sea, we march."

    Sorry News, that would be the pacifists who believe they can handle a situation like this by peaceful protest. Please tell me what you plan to do and what pacifists groups are planning on doing about Assad's torture of innocent children. I do hope Pacifists take some action, and I am all for that, I just don't think it would have any effect. The only thing Assad might react to is the sword.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Sep 5, 2013, at 6:37 PM
  • News: "There is no telling where this thing could go. Besides to me it sounds like Obama just wants to do some more killing."

    Can we agree to disagree? That is really unfair to make that comment about Obama. He is in a tough decision making position and I have never seen anything he has said or done that would lead me to believe he "wants to do some more killing". Would you please take that statement back? I am a Liberal and I will still vote Democrat because the alternative is not acceptable social behavior.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Sep 5, 2013, at 6:37 PM
  • Smart Dog: "You would actually help the conservatives gain power and implement anti-progressive policies in order to somehow "punish" Democrats for not agreeing with your personal positions?"

    Yes he would SD. That is exactly the non-pragmatic attitude that got GW elected over Kerry. If those who voted for Ralph Nader had not wasted their vote, perhaps we wouldn't have had the Iraq and Afgan wars.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Sep 5, 2013, at 6:37 PM
  • The darker the skin the less likely we're in.

    Genocide, and massacres; Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia, Congo, Ethiopia, and Sudan.

    What, no intervention by the United States? What, no outrage expressed in the American press? What, no expressions of horror, and revulsion by the American people? I guess it is because Africa is so dark that no one in America can see it there.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 6, 2013, at 12:19 AM
  • Of course our isolation from Africa would likely not exist if a lot of the blackness there was oil. Greed is likely the most color blind emotion.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 6, 2013, at 12:28 AM
  • Has anyone else noted how the propaganda arm of our war machine, the mainstream media, has turned themselves inside out to establish a humanizing connection between the American people, and the Syrian people?

    Our war machine leaves no stone unturned. I could not escape hearing over, and over, and reading multiple sources that Jerry Seinfield is Syrian you know, and Steve Jobs is Syrian you know, heck I even found out that Teri Hatcher is Syrian. Ya gotta love those poor Syrians. I am still scratching my head as to why those same sources did not mention that Bob Marley was Syrian.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 6, 2013, at 1:15 AM
  • okla: That was the first thing that came to mind when we heard about the Gas being used! You never got much news on the Millions killed in Africa? Theres a lot wrong with this world! I say we stay out of any Civil war's! Hell most of them in the fight are Enemies of the USA anyway,and they want our help to overthrow another Enemy of ours, please! Al Qaeda could be the ones that released the gas,and get us in it. NOT IMPOSSIBLE! Stay the hell out of it?

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Sep 6, 2013, at 8:58 PM
  • Hey Jo glad to see you're still kickin' too. Yup, I agree with you.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Sep 6, 2013, at 10:24 PM
  • I am evolving on this, and finding it difficult to strongly support a punitive action or to stay out as everyone else here seems to believe. Although I still lean toward a punitive action to Assad with intent to possibly reduce his ability to use chemical weapons, I find myself also wanting to get the vast majority of our allies, as well as Nato, to first agree to a strike as well. With my own uncertainty (waffling if you want to call it that) I believe I understand the tremendous strain it puts on the President to make the "right" decision. Those of you who accuse Obama as being a war monger and murderer are accusing him so unfairly in my opinion because there is no evidence that he has ever done anything to remotely suggest he is the evil person your comments suggest. You may "believe" he is a mean and murderous individual because of this particular international issue (see my comment on "belief" in the religious blog), but to call him that with no substantial evidence when he has not displayed such traits in the past, is not being fair to him. His past actions indicate he is a cautious and compassionate individual and is struggling to do the right thing now, whether any of you agree with his approach or not.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 6:34 AM
  • You have a point RT. I have been guilty of passion inflamed overstatement regarding Obama. I do not believe he is evil unless being a willing tool of the corporatocracy is a passive form of evil, a sin of ommission if you will. Is he likely to kill, and eat his children? No, though some of the comments here may lead one to believe he is capable of even that. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 11:47 AM
  • Apparently the lessons of war with radicals in the Mid East has not be learned. We will be considered evil no matter what. So with that being said we need to just look out for our interests. First if this is about oil then then Obama is a hypocrite when it comes to Green energy i doubt that he is that I think he needs to save face. The radicals don't fear him like Bush. In fact when he said he was going to talk to congress the radicals celebrating that they had the big evil back down.

    And going back to Oil if this is about this then we should be developing our own oil we do not need the Mid East. Because this is the US in some parts Green energy makes since in other parts oil makes sense we need to strike a balance on our energy grid.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 12:20 PM
  • ROTFLMAO News.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 1:34 PM
  • Good post Jason. Careful old buddy you may be drifting to the left a little bit. ;)

    Hope your kids are doing O. K.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 1:36 PM
  • do; Thanks for the link utube link,i never seen it! I Think the post being made now are as they should be, without all the sweet talk,tell it like it is! Theres too much of that, my friend across the aisle!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 4:31 PM
  • Obama isen't evil,he's in the belly of evil with all those fool's!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 7:05 PM
  • News, i wanted to ask about the Tony Abbott win?

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 7:29 PM
  • I have a kid with autism. He has learned 7 signs since I have been to parent training. I have been busy with that and dealing with a death in the extended family(11 month old that passed away at daycare) still no answers. Anyways been reading about once every 2 weeks and have really enjoyed the banter. Carry on all have fun with your discussions and don't take things personal we have a right to voice or viewpoints just do it in a respectful way.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 10:26 PM
  • DO - turning this into a "spiritual war" is doing exactly the SAME thing the jihadists are doing in declaring a 'holy war'- same garbage. It's about oil, and money, and control - and until we give up the insane worship of all three, it isn't going to change, it's just going to change 'faces' - the game it the same - a testosterone-loaded pile of bovine manure (which at least could be used as compost)...

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 12:53 AM
  • Thanks New's What effect will this Abbott have on Health Care,if any? I'm going to research (Politics) Down Under a little more! Are things as bad as here? I'm sure there's S,O.Bs in all Governments!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 1:10 AM
  • Congratulations Jason on the accomplishment of you, and your little guy! I have a pretty good idea as to how proud you must be, and I hope the same for him. :)

    I say little guy not knowing his age, or size because from my perspective your kids will always be your little guys, and gals. That is even more the case concerning grandchildren. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 1:36 AM
  • you know what do,i was kinda trying to figure you out as far as where you stand as a human being! Some of your Post i can agree and some are just NUT'S! Like this last one,condemning Nana2 on one of her Post. I don't see what post you're talking about! I for one, can agree with almost everything she makes comments on. And if being an Atheist makes any difference i make a lot of mistakes!I look at everything in a common sense way and make my comments! I think all this Religious crap is what's wrong with the Mideast and the entire World,since time began!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 8:12 PM
  • Thanks News,It's seems the U.S.of A. isn't the only Country involved in the New World Order! I thought they just wanted all the Money in America!NO! NO! Whatever this is happening involves the World? ha, intrigue?

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 8:28 PM
  • DO - only you and rr3 even attempt to call me an 'atheist' with a straight face. You actually have no idea. I don't intend to 'address' your non-questions, and I don't give a flip whether you believe me or not about anything, or whether you consider me to be 'honest' or not. "Frankly, my dear, ...."

    Jo - good to see you! Thanks! Hope you are doing well. :)

    -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 8:32 PM
  • -- Posted by NDII on Sun, Sep 8, 2013, at 8:41 PM
  • Good stuff ND. I think our overstuffed with homo sapiens land masses will soon enough have that load lightened.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 9, 2013, at 12:02 AM
  • Robert H. Seales, Major general, Retired

    "A War The Pentagon Doesn't Want"

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/us-military-planners-dont-support-war-wit...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 9, 2013, at 1:11 AM
  • There are some good things going on with our prairies. http://truth-out.org/news/item/18685-bringing-bison-and-biodiversity-back-to-the...

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Sep 9, 2013, at 2:07 AM
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