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Speak Out [religion] November 1, 2012, to January 1, 2013

Thursday, November 1, 2012

This forum is for discussing religious issues. The same standards of behavior apply as are spelled out on our home page in the introduction to Speak Out.

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Have you read Huxley's short story? The fortress is what and who you make of it. It could have been your cave with your family, or just any place you might need to withdraw to keep safe physically or mentally.. you don't have to withdraw to it indefinately, although I think that is what Huxley's point revolved around. To me, everyone has their own fortress of solitude... yes, even Superman :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Jan 1, 2013, at 7:33 AM

Uh...too much of the "Holiday Spirit" OKR?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jan 1, 2013, at 2:21 AM

Goin' all scatalogical on y'all I gotta say that even early human kind likely learned to do their bizness away from common areas, that is seek privacy. Perhaps not so much to seek privacy, for privacies sake, nor anything to do with modesty, but for other reasons.

For instance, they may not have wanted predators to smell their spore at a distance, and follow it to their base. They may have learned that if it was near where they gathered, it could cause sickness. I don't think it had anything to do with the smell being revolting as the streets of cities in some socities reeked of it in relatively recent times.

A side note: Until a few hundred years ago toilet facilities were non-existent for much of the world's common people. The squat was it. That leads me to the thought that passage on the pot is much easier if one tip toes,(raising the knees) and leans forward while on the commode, which simulates body position during excretion as developed from our beginnings. It is a position that our digestive system adapted to for efficiency.

Sometimes I think of the weirdest things. Watcha think? ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jan 1, 2013, at 12:28 AM

Fortress of Solitude?

That would be great!

I saw the one Superman has.

I want one like that.

But seriously folks consider this little factoid, in Paleolithic times there was no such thing as privacy. Yeah, even daily bodily functions, right there in public, sort to speak. It was necessary because going off on one's own, even for a short time or a short distance, could very well result in one being eaten by any number of animals...big animals.

Our Paleolithic ancestors happily, and literally, spent all their time with the people they loved, and I doubt they needed a Solitude of Fortress since even the concept of privacy was something they had no inkling of.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 31, 2012, at 6:09 PM

"In spite of all of the science that tells us that we are social animals, this is the best you can come up with?"

Yes. I didn't think it was that bad :-)

"A "fortress of solitude"? - who in the sam hill in their evolutionary minds could or would want to live like that?"

We all do to a degree. Don't you have a fortress of solitude Nana?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Dec 31, 2012, at 5:02 PM

Rodney was shunned to a corner, left to his own devices.

Rodney could only listen to, his own advices.

Rodney was shunned to a corner, because he paid no attention.

Rodney was subjected to, peer assigned detention.

Rodney didn't notice, and so the circle went.

Rodney's head was spinning, what could he prevent? ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 11:28 PM

Yes, News, I think the rest of us left lately commenting on this blog are having to split hairs on some issues, but all are very reasonable, rational, and my guess above all people I'd love to do an occasional shot with to celebrate the extreme luck we've had in that one in a million sperm penetrating that one resilient egg. Whoops, kind of took the buzz off that shot with that comment. Happy News year!

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 7:01 PM

That was an interesting video lecture RT.

He definitely has a strong argument.

As for ND, you, and me -- and all people, we are all just stone-age folks trying to cope with modern technologies and concepts.

We just need to get back to our aboriginal roots, reduce the population, and then we won't have to worry about such things as incompatibility of science and religion. The rest will take care of itself.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 3:53 PM

Nana: "HOWEVER - secularists are going to have to do a MUCH better job of explaining how to find meaning, as opposed to perpetually, and snarkily, declaring life is hopeless and has no meaning. Cause who wants to live like that? What's the point?"

I don't think anyone IS capable of explaining how to find meaning, and I think that is at least part of "the point". Science can explain much of the how and why things work or don't work, but there is nobody who has an inside track on the big philosophical "why" we are here (other than how we evolved). Those unanswerable questions are not privy to anyone. Religion tries to answer that with hocus pocus god delusion declarations that are of no value other than fooling one's self. Each of us are saddled to find our own Fortress of Solitude (Huxley), and science can help by reducing the time needed for pure survival (unlike our wild animal cousins). Science can provide much physical comfort, but how we enjoy our spare time is certainly up to us. Being secular does not mean we feel life is hopeless. It does lend itself to believe each day is more precious since we do not believe in a soul that gives us everlasting life, and that is "the point".

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 1:17 PM

Science and Religion are NOT compatible!! This Jerry Coyne lecture is a little over one hour, but I enjoyed it immensely as he really lays out a case why science and religion are not compatable. Nana, he even lists one of reglions argument to fight back (as false) is the argument that science has been misused. Find an open hour and enjoy...


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 12:38 PM

Stanford Gets A Chaplain For Atheists..

This goes along the theme I was suggesting about how some churches and pastors could become more relevant if they offered a secular side to their particular church..

Figdor, 28, is one of a growing number of faith-free chaplains at universities, in the military and in the community who believe that nonbelievers can benefit from just about everything religion offers except God.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stanf...

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 12:49 AM

Inside the minds of the BushMaster Boys: http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentar...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 11:56 PM

This link relates to my last comment. http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 11:01 PM

Another point to your observation about bombs AC; There is some regulation of bomb making materials. The purchase of fertilizer is regulated for instance. Of course Tim McVeigh got around the regulations.

However he was a life long gun nut, and chose a bomb because it would kill more people. He was a different breed of cat than these solitary sick boys who go on killing sprees.

McVeigh was fascinated by militia matters including the politics of the movement. Politically motivated revenge for such things as Ruby Ridge, and Koresh of Waco differed him from the BushMaster Boys. He was not particularly interested in watching people drop as he shot them. He was instead making a political statement for the movement.

One has to wonder if the Krazy Kids would even consider bombs because it would not give them the same killer high that personal slaughter does. It would not satisfy their compulsion.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 11:00 PM

Interested, Im filling in the blank. "A bomb made from common household items." +1 for pro gun.

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 5:37 PM


Once again the Church brings out an old and debunked argument to support their "men should be dominant over woman" argument.

Its been debunked before and once again a conservative wants to resurrect a failed argument.

Its time we begin exposing people like this for what they are -- sexist pigs who think sexism is a good thing.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 4:43 PM

How religion promotes ignorance can be seen everywhere, and here is just one example:

An Italian priest has sparked anger for claiming women bring domestic violence on themselves by dressing provocatively and neglecting housework:


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 4:47 AM

The question is really whether there is that much difference between someone like Fischer and the majority of strongly religious people who believe prayer really works. If you believe prayer really works, which I assume most religious people do believe, then you do believe in a god that not only watches over us all, but pulls the strings on all events. Someone like RR3 (he needs to speak for himself) and many others would believe that some immoral action of some kind led to that Newtown massacre. People who believe in that may not have the political clout of a Fischer, but they still have influence that chip away at a civil and rational society that ultimately brings us all down. What we are talking about here is how religion is responsible for much of the ignorance holding advancement of our species back, and in no small way influencing our decisions that could ultimately cause our own extinction. That is quite a leap I am suggesting, but the power of ignorance should not be under estimated.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 4:43 AM


Oh I agree with you.

I wasn't trying to defend that group of nutcases.

I just wanted to point out that folks who listen to this guy and his organization should consider the source.

But you are right, there are a lot of nuts out there that do listen to him and agree with him.

Its a sad state of affairs mate.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 11:54 AM

Here's the thing, News, if you really think about it, most if not all true believers believe there is an "intervening" god. That is, a god that listens to their prayers and depending on his decisions doles out reward and punishment in our daily lives. So, I would surmise that there are a good many religulites that believe bad events take place because of actions that their god does not approve of. Therefore, don't be surprised if it is not just the hate groups that believe those shootings were somehow part of gods decision.


> Nana, I agree that his view on the Supreme court banning prayer is nonsense. From their collective view, if our schools don't actively promote Christianity in our schools, then they are in effect banning it. That is truly nonsense, as you say.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 9:05 AM


The "American Family Association" is a hate group listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I don't care what hate group leaders have to say.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 11:20 AM

Bryan Fischer, spokesman for the American Family Association, in response to a Pew poll that revealed that 20 percent of the population are non-religious, up from 16 percent in 2008: "the foundations of our culture are crumbling." The Pew poll, he said, "is one of the signs." He goes on to say "that God did not protect the children killed in the Newtown, Conn., massacre because of the Supreme Court decisions banning prayer and Bible reading in public schools. "God is not going to go where he is not wanted," Mr. Fischer said.

With religious leaders like this, they still wonder why there is a major shift toward the non-religious. It is this kind of intervening, vindictive, and punishing god view that makes me wonder how anybody can buy into religion in the first place. He makes the case for keeping religion out of public schools an obvious one in my book.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 8:43 AM

Thanks mates!

And a merry little Christmas to you too.

Eat well, drink well, enjoy your loved ones, and most of all, relax and have a good time.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 1:44 PM

What ND said. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 10:56 AM

Merry Christmas News to you, and Aussie Wife. I am going to the kitchen now to pour myself a stout egg nog, and will toast the both of you over there far across the big pond.....I'm back, here's to you...aaah, that was good. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 11:39 PM

"heart" enlargement

OK I admit it!!

Its Christmas Eve here and yeah I am sucking down that egg-nog as fast as I can (yeah the good kind with the "Christmas Rum" and nutmeg).

I am entitled to a few typos...lol.


-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 9:05 PM


Apparently you were not aware that the Grinch got a hear enlargement and no longer steals Christmas. Besides, my Jack Russel Dot would take care of that problem real quick.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 9:02 PM

Thanks News. I have a special connection to the Grinch, so to repay the favor I will request that he lighten up on you. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 7:00 PM

I have good news for you anti-Santa folks, specifically the non-believers RT, ND, and OKR.

I used my close connections with Santa to get you guys off the naughty list.

So you are off the hook for this Christmas, but I gotta tell ya I am about all out of favors from Santa.

Next year your are on your own.

No need to thank me. I was happy to help out.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 5:42 PM

Yeah we have one in Sydney too ND.

Aussie Wife and I have been considering a visit to their church.

We are very impressed with their commitment to helping the homeless in Sydney.

For example, they own a restaurant right in the heart of the Sydney CBD. Its a high quality restaurant with excellent food and a warm, inviting decor -- and its free to the homeless. Folks who can pay (like AW and me) pay the normal market rate for that quality of food. It helps feed the very needy and allows the restaurant to maintain its high quality (3.5 star), and best of all when a paying patron eats there, he/she can do so knowing they are also helping Sydney's homeless.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 1:41 PM


Lol, yeah sure you are just kidding....

You do make an interesting point there, and I agree.

I believe that eventually religion will decline to the point where most people will have no need for it, but man's altruistic needs will remain. Its logical then that we would then use the system we have set up to continue our altruistic pursuits but without all the mythology and damnation.

Excellent point mate!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 11:08 AM

We've touched on the church's role in our society and how much of a positive role it has played throughout history. I have argued that those individuals donating time and money are altruistic and would have done so whether they believed in Christ and God, or not. I believe I am right, but I must also admit that the reality is that the church is a "brick and mortar" place that exists throughout our world giving local representation for their beliefs and mostly altruistic causes. In a sense, they are like the 7-11 in that they are everywhere. One problem for those of us who are secular (aka non-believers) is that there is no brick and mortar local place (or very few) that has anywhere near the organization that The Church has (regardless of denomination or religion for that matter). Perhaps there are ministers that are open minded enough to accept that there are many non-believers that could use the social power of a brick and mortar church along with the social power of local gatherings to promote a parallel function of the church to promote altruistic values for local communities. They could openly allow a secular branch that was interested in donating and gathering for social events as well as making donations for special altruistic causes to benefit society. The problem ultimately with this is that such a church and ministry would have to accept that there are many individuals that cannot believe and their role would change from trying to "promote" their religion to accepting that their value would be in allowing the free flow between the two groups and accepting the validity of each group's point of view. Such a church could gain in membership and would grow in community stature as secular groups grow in numbers over the years. At some point, a large majority of that church may be secular in nature, yet the altruistic value of the church would still stay intact. Both groups would need to respect the views of the other. I've met preachers I think could pull that off. In fact, I think most preachers would relish playing to both a secular group as well as a believer's group. One group would have sermons while the other group would promote TED type lectures. Ok, the weed is wearing off and I'm starting to realize that perhaps that is just to idealistic... of course I'm kidding (about the weed :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 7:48 AM

Yeah RT, I may not worship as Christians do -- unless regarding the sum total of the laws of physics as the most supreme law is sort of like worshiping in a secular kinda way I guess -- however, I do like Christmas trees, Christmas lights, Christmas caroling, and yep, Nativity scenes.

Frankly, I miss the way we used to do Christmas back in the old days, back when folks got along better and Christmas was a time when we reflected on peace and humanity, life, and our roles in this World (and perhaps the next).

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 3:26 PM

Washington Post now says "Unbelief is now the world'€™s third-largest '€™religion'"

"The study, released Tuesday (Dec. 18) by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, found that more than eight in 10 (84 percent) of the world's 7 billion people adheres to some form of religion. Christians make up the largest group, with 2.2 billion adherents, or 32 percent worldwide, followed by Muslims, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23 percent worldwide. Close behind are the "nones" -- those who say they have no religious affiliation or say they do not believe in God -- at 1. 1 billion, or 16 percent. That means that about the same number of people who identify as Catholics worldwide say they have no religion."

I still believe that with the Internet this 16 percent of rational people will explode in growth over the next few years. It used to be just the really really smart people that knew it was all a load of (you know), but as the rest of us get exposed to the idea that these adult fairy tales are not really shared by all around us, the easier it is to accept what really makes sense after all... that there is no supernatural sky daddy looking over us 24x7 and pulling strings (answering prayers). And no, the sky daddy didn't cause all those children to die just to test your faith either. Now that I've thrown that little bad taste in your punch bowl, let me switch gears and seriously tell you that I do really enjoy the xmas spirt a lot (just not the supernatural part), and wish you all a very Merry Xmas!!

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 9:55 AM

Good one News. From the angle the research picture was taken, it might also prove how they could get a case of the red-arse as well :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 9:41 AM

Science Proves Existence of Red Nosed Reindeer


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 3:16 AM

Great article RT.

I had heard about it but I hadn't read the details.

Thanks for posting that mate.

On another subject you touched on in your comment,

while we cannot say there is absolutely no Almighty God somewhere outside the Universe -- if there is an outside the Universe -- we can safely say that there is absolutely no Almighty God within the Universe. He like everything else would be subject to the laws of the Universe which might still make him a technologically superior being, but certainly not an Almighty God.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:08 AM

There is a lot less room for god in our universe as science makes it more difficult for him (yes, we conveniently know his sex) to peer in on us as we do whatever we do in our bedrooms. Since we've been able to see in the clouds and around the moom and probed our owne universe without neery hint of his campsite, we have expanded our probing light years away, finding possibly similar habitats to earth. Maybe he's concentrating on another species in his image way out there...

"Tau Ceti's planets nearest around single, Sun-like star"


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 5:22 AM

ROTFLMAO RT. Good one.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 10:47 PM

My favorite dream is for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 9:35 PM


OKR is right.

We should agree to agree and bury the hatchet (lol).

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 1:29 PM

Hey News and RT, can't you guys just agree to agree? ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 10:56 PM


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 10:55 PM


I certainly am glad we agree, a 2000 year old collection of religious manuscripts makes a poor substitute for rational thought.

I would perhaps go further and argue that since the discovery of an original, complete religious book, "The Egyptian Book of the Dead," which is a much, much, much older book, we no longer need to rely on silly new myths like Christianity.

And its exciting!


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 12:56 AM

Hey News, I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I was just making my own observations as well. Yes, I had viewed the videos and found them interesting - thanks! OKR, I certainly ejoy your posts as well. Most of the regulars I enjoy reading, but the super religious posts bore me to tears and from my stand point I can't help but have pitty on people that are so indocrinated by their religion that they blindly follow and quote absurdities written over 2k years ago. I do think it is important to at least espouse one's beliefs so anyone reading these posts knows there are a lot more people who don't believe in the supernatural than that might have otherwise thought.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 5:55 PM

"Tennessee pastor: Mass shootings because schools teach evolution and 'how to be a homo"


Hey friends and neighbors, just wait 'till ya hear this fella's sermon. He has a lot on his agenda!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 3:05 PM


You may want to note that,

1.) I did not say I "believed" in String Theory. Its not a question of belief.

What I said was,

"...if String Theory and Chaos Theory are correct..."

As yet, it remains a complex hypothesis with some supporting evidence including the math. I recommend you watch the 2 videos I cited with links. You may find the evidence very interesting.

2.) No, I was not making any philosophical statements. I prefer we stick with the topic at hand -- science. Memory is stored in the brain. That is pretty simple mate. We know its a fact. When the brain dies, memory dies. If you have scientifically derived evidence to the contrary, I would love to hear about it.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 2:03 PM

Well said RT. I enjoy discussions that you and News share. Good on the both of you!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:32 AM

String theory is way too abstract for our physical universe to believe it could give you a chance to truly live forever. Besides, never remembering (who says memory is tied to anything but physiology anyway) brings up an entire philosophical debate in the same vein as whether the forest really exists if you were the only one to see it. The reality (based on information and not just hope) is that you will never again see that loved one again once they are gone. I believe most people understand that (at least subconsciously) and that is why even the most religious individuals exhibit such overwhelming grief. They don't really "buy into" the everlasting life thing. When people can consciously accept that there is no afterlife, perhaps they can make the best use of their time they have with their loved ones in the here and now. Loss of life for a loved one is no worse for an atheist who recognizes there is "no more" than for someone trying to consciously convince themselves that they will see that person again in an afterlife.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 4:14 AM


Yes, I am sure if String Theory and Chaos Theory are correct, I will see my children and spouse again. The problem is neither I nor they will have any memory of it. We don't remember the last time and we won't remember in the next time around.




-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 4:23 PM

News, if you were to lose your wife or child to some tragedy tomorrow, do you believe they have souls that you would then meet up with again after your death?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 3:56 PM


Have you ever seen the original "Planet of the Apes" movie?

Well we don't have to go far to find that planet...we are that planet.

We are social creatures. We feel emotional pain and have very complex ties with other humans.

Why we are the creatures we are and how we became these creatures all depends on who you ask.

God is what we define God to be.

For me the concept of "God" is all of us, together. I see God as the collective passions and compassions of our species. We are, in fact, 1 family and we are all, at a minimum, distant cousins.

The madman destroyed what many of us consider to be our most precious asset, our most cherished possession, the children.

I don't know about you, but way over here in this American's home in Australia it has been for Aussie Wife and me a most depressing time. We are grieving. We understand the pain we are feeling and we understand that the pain level in Newtown has to be at least as bad as that...and actually much worse.

If the Churches can help alleviate the terrible grief and pain those folks are in, how could that possibly be wrong?

It could be that I am missing a part of the puzzle or maybe I just can't see the bigger picture -- after all, I am only human, but if religion can help those good people in Newtown at all, then I support the churches there 100%.

I say thank you to all the good Christians both in and out of Newtown for caring enough to at least try to help.

And I think its important to give credit where credit is due.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 2:24 PM

And as not to only single out Christians, check out the ignorance perpetuated by Islam by a revolt of creationist Islam students force a debate on Evolution to change its venue away from a respected scientific university:


Rhetorical question: "Why is such stupidity embedded in religion?"

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:38 AM

News: "Christianity has an important role to play in our society. Their hard work helping folks in Newtown is a very good example of that important role."

This is very difficult to approach, but I suppose "any port in a storm" is understandable when in shock. Letting people hold on to their illusion of everlasting life seems humane, but the real issue is that the belief of eternal life thru unquestionable faith has been perpetuated so long and from such an early age, that the reality of this being the only life we have cannot be thrust upon those experiencing the shock of losing a loved one. I'm afraid an interview with me after such a loss would not go well, if I would even talk to reporters at all. It would probably start with something like "Where was your Lord and savior to prevent this from happening? He didn't prevent it because He does not exist and there is no way to rationalize a god having anything to do with this tragedy. "

If all those Christians were to wake up tomorrow and realize that there probably isn't a supernatural being watching over everyone, I am confident every one of those benevolent individuals would still be "there" to support those who have suffered this horrific tragedy. And News, they would also still be "hard working folks". What I am saying News, is that Christianity can be taken out of your equation and support and kindness would still flourish every bit as much.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:11 AM

News, that was an entire quote from a blogger. I would have never been considered a groupie of any kind (well, maybe a keg party groupie :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 6:49 AM


Library Groupies?


-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 2:27 PM

To our Christian friends.

Its refreshing to see Christians in Newtown, CN assisting the community with spiritual and moral support -- the kind of support the good people of Newtown need right now.

Christianity has an important role to play in our society. Their hard work helping folks in Newtown is a very good example of that important role.

Good on Them!!

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 1:35 PM

ND: "Yes, Ghandi and Mother Theresa might have been kind, generous selfless people without religion..."

But with religion, Mother Theresa helped cause death and misery for thousands with AIDS because she peddled the churches position of abstinence over the use of condoms. This is a great example of someone that believes they are doing "good", yet the net effect of their actions is very bad. Was she really kind and generous if the net affect was so bad?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 10:24 AM

Articlel: "Census 2011: What has caused this massive flight from Christianity?"


Great article! And I really enjoyed this blogger's comment on same:

* "Christianity is absurd and weird, and can only survive in an echo-chamber. Globalization has been killing Christianity since the 1800s. John 3:16 sounds fine, until you meet a non-Xian and realize they are bound for Hell.

A century of recording technology eliminates rumors of magic. There has never been a miracle on tape. Google is killing urban legends. It used to be people established themselves as reliable sources of information, and seek the esteem of others. If I heard it from a professor or read it in a reputable publishing, it was safe to repeat. I had a circle of friends who lived by the same standard, and we were the smug, cafe intellectuals that spent regular time at the city library. We had power, prestige, even groupies! Now everyone has the same access. There used to be a population of people who just repeated BS that they heard from someone else, and bad memes would run unchecked. Those people are gone now. I think we passed into a new era, without much attention paid to it.

I used to dogear the Bible to show people the juicy, faith killing bits. Now, there are websites dedicated to each topic (slavery, rape, absurdities, racism, sexism, etc).

Christianity also got even stranger. The world did not end in 2000, and a lot of people were banking on that. Even more people saw others that foolish hysteria. How many millennialists had kids? [Speaking of which, I look forward to this year being the death knell for New Age hokum]. The rise of Pentecostalism and Evangelism were signs of hypothermia, the flock retreating into vital fundamentalism. Such an exciting time to be alive."

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 9:56 PM

"Ancient copy of Ten Commandments goes digital"


2000 years old...lol, the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" predates that by 3000 years.

If I had to pick a religion based upon the age of the oldest existing copy we have of a text -- I would have to go with the "Book of the Dead."

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 2:27 PM


I could not agree with you more.

I think soon folks like Palin and Beck...well known supporters of the now defunct T party (and long standing members of the now almost-just-a-footnote-in-history, Republican Party, along with Rush and his ilk will be soon be nothing more than forgotten icons of neo-liberalism along with the fascist principles upon which they stand.

These folks are literally a dying-breed.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 2:04 PM

As a personal request, please never post links to "The Blaze" anything.

Glenn Beck is part of what is wrong with America. Folks like him, Palin, and numerous others are profiting in a really big way from furthering the political divide in our country.

Egomaniacs such as those think they are so important that folks must hear their message. They recognize the opportunity to rake in money from dissatisfied and disgruntled folks who think life is too hard and it's somebody else's fault.

They profit by the millions from increasing the political chasm and convincing people to hate their government, then they wrap themselves up in the flag and claim to be patriots.

We can't fix our system while numerous talking heads are spreading untruths and fear while making big money.

Our founders recognized that a successful democracy required voters who knew and understood what they are voting for, yet in modern America, one can become filthy rich by preying on the intuitive nature and emotions of people who are desperately looking for something to believe in that sounds comfortable and fits their narrow world-view.

And the Beck/Palin/Coulter/Rove/.......'s of the world are happy as hell to take advantage of that situation. They seem to not care that they are creating chaos in our government, as long as they keep getting paid.

Shameful at best. Treason at worst.

Whatever it is, it's not helping create a better future for America. Funny thing is, that's what they claim to be doing.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 8:25 AM

"O'Reilly attacks 'wimpy Christians' for not freaking out about 'war on Christmas"


Bill, I am with ya on this one. Let's keep the "Santa" in "Christmas."

Keep the faith believers!!!

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM

Well ND,

I understand.

You have your pride.


Either that or we can agree to disagree.

But I want you to understand there will be no compromise on the Santa issue.

Even as we speak he is checking his list...you know the rest.

So it looks like you have around 12+ days to get right with Santa or its lump-of-coal-city for you.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 2:14 PM

"CAW Santa vs. Jesus"


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 11:40 PM


I accept your surrender...and let this be a lesson to you.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 9:20 PM

See what I mean SC?

Its a war on Christmas and faith in Santa is the front line, just him and his helpers, and his reindeer -- and yes that does include Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.

He's hold up in his magical kingdom at the North Pole holding out against the evil Scrooge-like Santa-haters that want to deny us all this magical Holiday and who hate our freedom -- just him and the little folks, and they are getting low on ammo.

Santa needs us to remain strong while he fights for the Christmas Spirit, and by the way, speaking of Spirits of Christmas, you remember what happened to old Scrooge don't you?

Yeah, he was a changed man come Xmas day.

All thanks to Santa, his reindeer, and his helpers who at this very minute have their boots on the ground at the front-line fighting for our right to get presents on X-mas morning.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 9:18 PM

humbug :(

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 7:48 PM

And SC,

Just take a look at these stats?



Keep the faith brother!!!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 7:06 PM


If you want to know the truth about Santa, you need only go to his book.

"The Autobiography of Santa Claus as told to Jeff Guinn"


Don't be deterred in your faith in Santa's Oneness by these coal-loving skeptics who would rather you get coal along with them just because they hate Santa that much.

Get the facts. Read Santa's book.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 6:56 PM


Please don't be fooled by that veiled attack on Christmas.

Trust me, Santa is the same before and now and as he will be in time to come. He is an unchanging Santa.

There are many in the anti-Christmas camp that would have you believe that not only will bad people (including, ironically -- or rather, "conveniently" -- the non-believers), WILL NOT be punished, but even go as far as to question Santa's existence (see ND's comment below).

Don't let subjective claims of the non-believers shake your faith in Santa mate. Trust me, at Xmas, bad boys and girls (like OKR and ND) get nothing but a lump of coal in their stocking on Christmas morning.

Don't be a lump of coal victim, be a winner -- stick with the fundamental Santa faith...you will be glad you did!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 6:37 PM

In fact, that leads me to this:


Santa will forgive you for your disbelief, but you must beg him for forgiveness before December 25th.

You can still have a very merry Christmas.

Its not too late!

Its as simple as getting right with Santa.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 3:01 PM

Oh and ND,

Do you heat your home with coal?

If not, I recommend you get right with Santa, right quick!!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 2:58 PM


No one involved in the Manhattan Project was involved in any way in the discovery of the Theory of Relativity or the Special Theory of Relativity in 1916. By the way, despite Einstein's agreeing to consult with Oppenheimer -- which amounted to explaining his discovery of many years before to Oppenheimer. He was never directly involved in the Manhattan Project, nor was he ever regarded as a member of the team that engineered the atomic bomb.

After all, Einstein publicly declared his practice of the ideal of Pacifism early on in his life -- before he was ever famous (going so far as to give up his German Citizenship to avoid participation in WW1).

In fact, there was no such project to build an atom bomb when these discoveries were made, and neither the US Government nor any other Government had plans to build any atomic bombs. Although we did know what splitting an Atom would do way back in 1916 (the World did have the formula for the Bomb -- the precise formula -- but still no plans to build an atomic bomb in 1916) when Einstein published his work. There was no push to build one or a project to engineer one. You are the first person I have ever heard try to imply that somehow Einstein set out to build an atomic bomb, and discovered the theories along the way. That is what you are saying when you claim that somehow the method by which he discovered the principles, the scientific method, was designed to lead to the engineering of a nuke based on those principles.

Your claim would be like attributing the discovery of the fossil fuel engine to Ford, which would be completely incorrect. He made the first durable, inexpensive, practical automobile available to the working class and then designed a better, more efficient method of manufacturing, but he certainly did not invent the engine nor did he discover the principles that cause the engine to work.

The science is the discovery of the principles.

The car (or atom bomb) is the application of the principles. The application is engineering, not the discovery. The discovery of the principles is the science.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 2:56 PM


OKR, you better get right with Santa...before its too late.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 12:25 AM

"Someone" put a lump of coal in my stocking twenty years ago. There it has remained. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 11:41 PM


Yeah but let's get down to the nitty-gritty mate.

What is your take on the Santa thing?

Myth or reality?

Before you answer ask yourself this, is it worth risking a lump of coal in your stocking on Christmas morning?

Look at it this way mate, if you believe in Santa and you are wrong -- no big deal, no lump of coal.

If you DON'T believe in Santa and you are WRONG, come X-mas morning its lump-of-coal-city for you buster -- no ifs, ands, or buts about it!

Think of your faith in Santa as a kind of insurance.

So now that you have had some time to think about it, go ahead, take the Santa plunge. Come on in for the big Santa win!!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 9:39 PM

Bottom line: Ministers can, and do use religion for immoral purpose. Scientists can, and do use science for immoral purpose.

It is not the vehicle in either case, it is the driver.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 8:31 PM


What is your position on Santa Clause?

Real or just a myth?

Before you answer, remember...Christmas is right around the corner.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 7:42 PM


Do you truly believe that Einstein had bomb-making in mind when he published the Theory of Relativity and the Special Theory of Relativity?

After all the entire bomb is based on his Theory and all of the components and the mechanisms were deduced, including precise quantities and structure, from his famous equation Energy = Mass x (Speed of light squared)

Engineering an atomic bomb was the decision of politicians, not the scientist who discovered the principles used to split the nucleus of an atom.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 7:39 PM

However, isn't Christianity ingrained in Western culture?

I mean just take the Christmas holiday for example.

Originally it was Saturnalia. It was a rather bizarre Roman ritual.

The Christians, under pressure from the Romans, finally began observing it but as "Christmas."

Like most things Roman, it is through the Church that Roman culture has been passed down to Western Europe and on to us as well.

For example, I am new atheist (highly skeptical of the existence of a supernatural order in the Universe) -- yet, I enjoy public Christmas Nativity Scenes. I like Traditional Christmas music. And yeah, I admit it, I like Christmas Caroling.

Christianity is many things to many people, but one thing is for sure, its a part of our culture.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 4:25 AM


I don't think his education caused him to want to commit horrendous acts against humanity.

I think that had some other causation.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 1:22 AM


Science is a methodology but the scientific community has rigorous standards of ethics, policies, and rules governing what is and is not science and what constitutes a legitimate scientist engaged in legitimate, ethical scientific work.

However, what you refer to is actually called engineering.

Yes engineers use physics and math, but engineering is a technological study. They use scientifically discovered characteristics of the Natural Universe, yes. However, that does not make designing death chambers or human remains ovens science. Its a form of engineering to design a tool -- for good or for bad -- Bad, Bad, Bad NAZI engineers!!!!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 10, 2012, at 1:01 AM

I agree News that Mengele's atrocities do not fit within the definition of science, to wit: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experimentation-Oxford.

I see nothing practical in his "work".

On the other hand those who worked to assure efficiency in the Nazi gas chambers by applying scientific principles would be engaging in a scientific endeavor wouldn't they? Applied science? ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 9:36 PM

I know of no authority that recognizes Mengele's work as science.

Can you show me which legitimate, credible, recognized Scientific body or accredited university that recognizes his work as science?

After all, when one violates all the rules and ethics of science, its no longer science.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 7:21 PM


There are some absolutes in the Universe -- the laws of physics and mathematics come to mind right away.

So to call a person's ideas "absolutist" in a Universe that does contain some absolutes seems a bit redundant and unnecessary.

After all, there are some absolutes.

I know the statement that "there are no absolutes" might sound like a profound statement, but its actually a contradiction in terms -- a "deepity," if you will (concepts that sound deep but in fact are meaningless).

And as to RT's point that the same people who are generous, kind, compassionate Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Noodlers, et al, they may in fact be that way even if they were atheists. The causation may be something other than religion. In fact, could it be that morality comes from not religion but rather is a bi-product of evolutionary biology?

"Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins on Morality and Science"


-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 11:32 AM

"that 'everything that has ever been accomplished by religion could have been done better by science and without religion' - which is pretty absolute... so who's "absolutist" here?"

That statement of what I believe to be fact may be absolutist, but that is not the entire context of what I mean by relative importance. The relative importance is that science has way more value added to our existence than does religion. And religion has provided "some" value, only because those who subscribe to formal religions do many good deeds. But even though they do good deeds, those good deeds do not nearly add up (relative importance) to what science has provided. And, then it is hard for me to give much relative importance to something I believe could have been achieved without their religion. And even if one thought religion was the impotence behind the good deeds you may want to give them credit for, they do not come close to the value science has given us (relative importance). Please name the major items religion has given our species that you think in some way might compare to the value science has added to our species?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 8:38 AM

She has a darn good point there RT.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 8, 2012, at 10:31 PM

As usual, Nana, you are accusing some of us as absolutists, while I am tryinjg to describe relative importance and/or lack of importance. Yes, News, many religious people have done very good things, and I maintain that even if they didn't believe in a supernatural creator, their own lack of understanding, they would still do very good things.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 8, 2012, at 11:15 AM

"Dust that Sings"


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 7:27 AM

Yeah that is great OKR. If a song has a special place in a person's heart, then the music has done its job mate.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 12:46 AM

I reflected after my last post about that little slice of time in Okemah Oklahoma, and realized I didn't do justice to that magical moment.

There were also musicians scattered about the front of the crowd; gig done they were enjoying their comrade's music. As the song progressed they stood, and joined in. So did I (sotto voice) thinking that one frog's voice wouldn't be too foreign to that wet pasture. I think the chill to some degree was not all due to the change in the weather, as in my case at least, it seemed to run up my spine, and raise the hairs on the back of my neck. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 12:16 AM

Thanks Cheetah. I truly enjoyed the article. :)

The reason I posted the song was to stir conversation about the song which means so many things. It has been one of my favorite songs for a long time for a lot of reasons. Since reading the article you linked it is now one of my favorites for even more reasons.

When we were at the Woody Guthrie Festival one evening this summer John Fullbright was on stage, and closed his set with "Hallelujah". As he began the song, the group that was to follow him came on stage, and joined in; then the group that preceded him (who were still backstage) came out. They all seemed to love the song. It is just one a whole lot of musicians are drawn to for various reasons with various results, in my experience all good. It was the hit of that drought breaking rainy evening. It had been a parched field with 100+ temps earlier, when they played it was wet the crowd was wet, and it was a slight shiver cool. Something I won't forget.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 4, 2012, at 11:53 PM

Gee OKR, SC never hopes I enjoy a link he posts.

Oh well, no point in letting it spoil my day.


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 4, 2012, at 8:16 PM


Yeah that's a cute song. I had a good laugh but I don't plan to be playing it on my fiddle anytime soon, lol.

As to physics and morality, well, physics is not in the business of morality. Such things are better explained by evolutionary biology and the behavioral sciences.


I do believe religion does play an important role in our society.

In no way would I dismiss the tremendous work many dedicated clergy do to make the lives of people better.

Quite to the contrary, I support religious humanitarian efforts fully. I do not accept their belief in magic but I do support their important humanitarian work.

In addition, there is no question in my mind that religion also serves society as a means of controlling some individuals' behavior who might otherwise be on a crime spree (in particular, socio-paths).

I fully agree that religion does in fact serve very useful purposes and plays an important role in our society.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 4, 2012, at 12:31 PM


Here is an interesting paradox:

Can Jesus create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

Either way you answer it, Jesus is subject to the laws of the Universe -- absolute laws that cannot be broken (see Einstein's Theory of Relativity and Theory of Special Relativity for more on this).

I don't think Jesus walked on water, nor do I think he is living in the clouds as the early Christians believed (they believed heaven was in the clouds). Of course they didn't have aircraft, spaceships, or satellites either.

No do I think he is travelling through space on his way to Heaven, nor do I think he made it there already because it would be physically impossible.

In fact, if he was really headed towards Heaven -- which would have to be outside of the Universe (because it conflicts with the laws of physics -- especially that time/relativity thing), then, even if he was travelling near the speed of light, he is not anywhere near the edge of the Universe.

The end of the Universe is 14 billion light years away from our current position in the Universe.

By this time, Jesus, traveling near the speed of light, would have traveled a mere 2000 light years, leaving him 13,998,000,000 light years to go.

And since the Universe is expanding at a rate greater than the speed of light, by the time Jesus has gone the 14 billion light years, which would take a minimum of 14 billion years, he would still have more than 14 billion light years to go because the Universe will have expanded more than 14 billion light years across while he is on his trip -- making it more than 28 billion light years across and giving him another 14 billion light years to go after that.

So after travelling for 14 billion years, Jesus would still have another 14 billion light years to go, and he would continually run into the problem that he cannot travel fast enough to overcome the vast distance and rate of expansion of the Universe.

So if anyone is waiting for Jesus to come back...well...there is no way he can make it.

And that is a fact.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 4, 2012, at 1:14 AM

Science as a tool can be used for good and bad, but I believe the facts show that science has improved our standard of living immensely. It is the understanding of our physical surroundings through science that separates us from tribal man. Yes, there is an argument to be made about "quality" of life, but that is extremely subjective. There are way too many improvements to our lives to go into any list, and that is a testament to how much positive value we have gained by science. Religion, on the other hand, has not offered anything tangible that we would not have achieved anyway (art comes to mind). There is an argument that could be made that the vast majority of religion's influence on our species had been negative and has held us back. Science will be able to propel us farther and faster much sooner when religious ignorance no longer is allowed to influence our government and education. Science is self-correcting; religion is propagated by ignorance. Can someone please explain how any rational person could possibly believe that a person named Jesus actually walked on water, other than total indoctrination?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Dec 3, 2012, at 7:41 PM



-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 4:25 PM

Actually I have suggested that to ND before mate.

How do you think I know ND is an unstoppable force?

Yeah, been there, done that mate (lol).

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 10:34 AM

News: "Stop blaming a tool for the discovery of truth for the foolish ways men and women use truth. Its like trying to blame a miter saw for the genocide of the Holocaust."

You are "preach'n to the choir" News :-) Nana, I believe he's addressing this to you :-(

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 10:03 AM

How can a tool for the discovery of truth be used for "evil?"

Are there "evil truths" out there that should never be discovered?

Stop blaming a tool for the discovery of truth for the foolish ways men and women use truth.

Its like trying to blame a miter saw for the genocide of the Holocaust.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 8:54 AM

Human Evolution Enters an Exciting New Phase

If there is a way out of this mess we have overpopulated our way into, there is no doubt science will have to lead the way. Yes, science as a tool has been used for both good and bad, but we are on a course of destruction just from shear overpopulation of the earth, along with ignorance provided by relgion, unless science can somehow lead us to solutions. This article is just a snippet of what science has to offer in understanding:


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 8:46 AM

Oh, and even the religious Aussies seem to think Ken Ham is crazy.

The mere mention of his name in a crowd can elicit loud laughter.

He has not one shred of evidence to support his "6000 year old Earth/Universe" hypothesis and all of the scientific evidence conflicts with his claims.

He is a fraud and a charlatan.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 7:30 AM

The Aussies don't like to talk about Ken Ham.

He is an embarrassment to them.

Ditto for Murdoch.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 6:20 AM

Here's another one for RR3:

"Ken Ham of Creation Museum Slams Robertson for Dismissing Young Earth Theory"


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 5:21 AM

Nana: "RR3, this one's for you"

Actually, that's for everyone, even atheists. It shows how far away from the intended teachings of Christianity the religious right (RR) has come. The RR does what all god fearing religious fanatic people do, they quote from the parts of the bible that justify their need for greed, and to hell with all that "love your neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" crap. The vast majority of the writings in the bible emphasize behavior more akin to a "hippie" than to a "wall street tea party" person the RR politically supports. Thanks for the link Nana!

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 4:58 AM

The Apostlistas!!

Are they America's latest terrorist threat?

Will they destroy the American dream?

Why do they hate our freedom?

Driven by a rage for all things Western, confidential sources report this relatively unknown group may actually be the real brains behind the 9/11 attack and the Cole bombing.

Stay tuned for future updates on this dangerous terrorist organization as more information comes in.


Be afraid.

Be very afraid!

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 1:38 AM

The thought occurs to me that the Apostles Creed is a sandwich for the soul with no meat. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 12:11 AM

For a long time I have appreciated the irony of listening to folks rant about the impending destruction of Christianity, clueless to the fact that Paul had already been there done that.

Good link ND, thanks.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 10:37 PM

One of the things I like about the song is that the many versions, and many interpretations parallel the Bible itself.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM

Leonard Cohen who wrote "Hallelujah" took a year to get it written, writing eighty versions of the lyrics. It has been covered by three hundred artists, who have used various versions of the lyrics resulting in a broad range of artistic interpretations.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 9:33 AM

Somebody's been worshiping at the church of sultry passion. :)

Wainwright's "Hallelujah" does have some nice biblical methphors.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 30, 2012, at 7:56 AM


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 10:31 PM


I liked both versions. Both are great vocalists.

However, for some strange reason I was really drawn into Kate Voegele's version. I just couldn't take my eyes off her. Thank goodness for young women!!

I think KD Lang would probably concur with my thoughts on the matter.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 8:40 PM

This is my meager contribution to the religion blog this evening. I'm still a bit poorly. ;)

This is all about King David, Samson and Delilah, and Hallelujah, other stuff.

Listen to this link first, it has the lyrics, which deserve pondering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDJgxE-0P...

Then listen to it at this link for it is the definitive version.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 7:23 PM

So, my apologies in advance for a couple of things.

1) If anyone has posted links or made reference to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster previously, then sorry to be redundant.

2) If any main stream religous folks are insulted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster as diety, then.....well.......too bad.

I think this is just way too funny. And enlightening as well.

I have finally found my church. What fun.


-- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 10:59 AM


Have you ever considered the importance of religion and spiritualism to Literature?

Or Art?

Or Philosophy?

Or Science?

(yep science, many of the early scientists were also Clergymen and some of the most important early scientific discoveries were made by those Clergymen)

Don't get me wrong. I agree with your comments 100%.

I was just hoping that perhaps we might have a look at religion and spiritualism from a perspective not of the sciences, but rather, from a cultural perspective.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 6:55 AM

ND, too much paraphrasing. "Language is an arbitrary symbolism". I guess that is all we can use on this forum until we get ESP down to a science.

ND: "The original question was something on the order of 'does anyone else think that all spirituality/religion lead to bad things'... I raised the issues of defining knowledge, the Chinese, the Mayan, the Egyptian and indigenous knowledges, and that they were couched in the terms they understood/used but that it did not invalidate the knowledge itself... you didn't even try to address it. You went straight to (paraphrasing) if they thought it was 'spirits' then it wasn't 'real'... really?"

OK, let me try again. Yes, there is great knowledge that was possessed by the Chinese, Mayans, Egyptians, etc. Have I now addressed it? Where you and I differ on this is in regard to you wanting to correlate all those building blocks of information in addition to the science and mathematics they achieved, to somehow use it to validate their spirituality. The Egyptians accomplished amazing things technologically. That does not validate (make true) their belief in the gods. The Catholic church is responsible for the creation of many great architectures, and the impetus behind much of the world's great art, none of which validates their belief system.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 1:57 AM

Oh well the Australian Aboriginals never signed any peace treaties nor did they ever agree to cede their rights to their country.

So right now, as we speak, the Aboriginals are suing Australia in the World Court asking for justice.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 7:54 AM


Regarding the Aboriginals, yes they want their property which was stolen from them returned.

And this is what they suggest.

(1) Establish a 3rd Legislature of the Parliament. The Aboriginal Senate.

It would be a Senate comprised of only Aboriginals, elected only by Aboriginals.

In order for any Bill to pass Parliament and become law it must pass all 3 legislatures -- including the Aboriginal Senate.

This would require an Amendment to the Australian Constitution.

(2) Return of the Stolen Lands.

The Farms, mines, and Ranches in and around traditional Aboriginal lands would be purchased at fair market value by the Federal Government and then returned to the various tribal councils to be owned and controlled by the Aboriginal tribes as long as the grass grows and the wind blows.

Its a fair solution to the problem and its viable.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 2:39 AM


I am quite serious. It was not a trick question.

I see no reason why we cannot seem to discuss religion and metaphysical concepts in this forum -- after all, it is the "Religiion" forum.

There is an intellectual approach to religion, and the fact is we have commentators that have a lot of knowledge and expertise in religion and particularly in Christianity.

I am interested in the subject and I would love to hear from some of our better informed commenters who might have some light they can shed on this topics.

If I have, over the years become so stuck in my ways that folks think I am not interested in their take on things then its time I turn a new leaf.

One thing is for sure. I am not trying to trick anyone. I am quite sincere.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 28, 2012, at 1:15 AM

Good question News. I have some thoughts about it, but I am too tired tonight, and have a bad cold. I'll probably take a shot at it tomorrow.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 11:07 PM

OK, well here is a question:

the concept of Original Sin:

Are all humans born with the Original Sin of Adam or is that merely a symbolic metaphor to illustrate the vulnerably of man and the need for forgiveness because of that vulnerability?

In other words, is if fair to say we are responsible for the sins of our fathers?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 8:55 PM

Nana: "The best they could come up with was the hammer-fist of 'If it isn't proven by (modern Western) SCIENCE (as we define it) it isn't TRUE!!"

That is NOT what has been said, at least by me. You are twisting the words making them totally inaccurate. If science cannot prove something is true does NOT mean it is false. At the same time, just because science cannot prove something false does NOT mean it is true. The existence of God cannot be proven, nor can it be proven that there is no God. Science cannot prove that Thor does not exist either. However, science and math can provide a lot of physical evidence to support the likelihood or improbability of many things that cannot be determined as absolute. You can choose to ignore statistical probability and hang onto a notion that has virtually no supporting evidence if you choose. I am not singling you out on this latter point, as I also believe in some things of which there is little or no physical evidence that it exists. Love and beauty come to mind as something I believe exists, at least in our minds. Whether it is chemical or something else is debatable.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:55 PM

This is all good. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:46 PM

Smokin' Cheetah

Well I simply believe you are correct. While there may be religious extremists they don't necessarily represent mainstream religious faith.

Oh and don't worry about the manic thing...Aussie wife is an expert on mental health and believe me, I have been fully tested by her lol....

So far, so good.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:39 PM


You make an excellent point.

Religion is a big umbrella. In addition, religion in the form of altruism has been responsible for improving the lives of the poor for many years. Of course, the good folks who dedicate their lives to the Jesus that gave the Sermon on the Mount cannot do the whole job, but I admire them for not giving up on the goal of reducing mankind's suffering.

You are absolutely right, we should not condemn good people who do good work in the name of their God. We should be thanking them for their faith and their acts.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 4:20 PM

This thought occurs to me:

at our peril we ignore semantics

and descend to monkey's antics

I don't see nearly enough "what do you mean by (blank)?" I am as guilty as the next. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 2:52 PM

Cha Ching!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 2:51 PM

Good point regarding semantics News. Taking your point forward we also need to define spiritual.

Oxford English Dictionary: Definition of spiritual


1 relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things: I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare

having a relationship based on a profound level of mental or emotional communion: he never forgot his spiritual father

(of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.

2relating to religion or religious belief: the country's spiritual leader

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 2:36 PM

No such thing r,

except in that Fox News bubble you live in.


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 2:00 PM

I kind of like discussing the "religion of liberalism" and the lies that they follow.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 12:22 PM


Perhaps the problem here is we keep using a word for which we all seem to have different definitions.

For the sake of clarity, let's stick with an operating definition that is objective.



the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods



the service and worship of God or the supernatural


If we are going to define religion as anything that people do with gusto then we will have to re-define almost every activity of human endeavor as "religion," and the belief and/or worship of God or Gods will remain undefined.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 11:44 AM


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 11:12 AM

If we didn't have religion, what would we argue about when it's not election season?

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:30 AM


I for one would love to discuss different spiritual and religious beliefs.

I find them all quite fascinating.

Discussion of religion and spiritualism would be a great opportunity for many of us -- including me -- to learn some new things. I like that.

In addition, it would give some of our religious commenters a better opportunity to discuss their religious beliefs in a friendlier environment.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 2:21 AM

Oops! that last comment was for the political forum...lol...sorry!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:57 PM

"Filibuster fight may threaten accord on avoiding fiscal cliff"



Let that axe fall!!

Let the pieces scatter where they will.

50% reduction in military spending -- yeah its worth it!


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:56 PM


What say we put our differences aside?

In fact, I have a religious question I would like to ask -- and no its not a trick question. Its just something I was thinking about and something perhaps you might like to weigh in on.

Its an area within your expertise, so your opinion on this would carry a lot of weight.

Most, if not all, Christian faiths teach that suicide is a sin. Most also teach that one must be willing to ask for forgiveness for the sin before their life expires in order to be saved from the consequences of sin.

So given that one cannot ask for forgiveness for a sin when they are dead, does that make suicide a sin for which there can be no forgiveness? Is it, as the Catholics believe, a Mortal Sin?

Recently I thought just maybe old Hitler saw the light at the end just before he pulled the trigger of the pistol and bit down on the cyanide tablet, and maybe he accepted Jesus into his heart. I know its unlikely, but who can say for sure? So then it occurred to me that he did, never-the-less, commit murder/suicide and would still have been condemned to Hell for the acts of murder and suicide.

Any thoughts on this SC?

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 9:59 PM


much like you, I too have had this discussion with ND before.

I still don't know what we were arguing about.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 9:44 PM

Nana: "My argument is still this: Scientists know the limits and weaknesses of their work and SAY SO. Demagogues and shock jocks and cults and wannabees who don't know their stuff use the imprecise, illogical, statistically incorrect, ideological LANGUAGE of claiming ALL answers to EVERYTHING. THAT is the hubris and the arrogance."

I don't understand the point you are trying to make? Have I said something that puts me in your classification of demagogues? Nobody has said that science has answers for everything. Science can only try to answer questions using physical evidence. Religion only has conjecture, opinion, with nothing to back it up. Science improves understanding of everything we see around us, and even things so far away we could never see, and things so small we can't see with the naked eye. Religion has nothing to do with the reality of our understanding of our environment and the universe. Some people claim to know what they cannot possibly know, and worse, some of them try to force their ignorance on others

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 7:15 PM

Yeah like I said SC, heh, there you go again...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 2:11 PM

Uh uh ND,

You're not drawing me in to this one.

Besides, haven't I always relied on the natural evidence?

Yes, that is science.

And yes there are some absolutes -- such as the laws of physics and the purity of mathematics.

But anyway, I am staying out of this one.

I don't want to end up a mere footnote in the annals of debate history.


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 12:59 AM

And...uh, RT,

I agree.

Everything in the Universe appears to be mechanical based upon all the observable/describable natural evidence.

But then again, being right, as you are, isn't everything lol....

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 9:39 PM


For Jimmie Cricket's sake man -- stop while you are ahead!

Well, OK, you're not really ahead. I made that part up.

But at least have the good sense to stop trying to defeat ND in a debate.

It can't be done.

Oh yes, many before you -- many mighty, strong men have tried before. Over the years that I have had the pleasure to have known ND in this forum, I have seen bigger men than you reduced to whimpering little puppies before they were allowed to quietly disappear into the annals of debate history.

Please don't let yourself become just another statistic mate.

Take my advice, admit you are all wrong on the issue and made a few incidental, silly statements and beg for mercy.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 1:19 PM

Nana: "... any time you start talking in 'absolute universal TRUTH' be it science or religion, you're gonna run into trouble..."

There is nothing absolute in religion, but science is continually adding to an already large amount of physical laws that are universal truth in regard to our physical world. Outside our physical world only lies conjecture, philosophy, and religion/superstitions. What I am saying is that science adds measureable value to our life and world around us, while religion adds nothing.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 11:37 AM

Nana: "RT - therefore, it is your view that we are simply extremely complex machines that are no greater than the sum of the complex parts?"

Yes, I believe that. I have to add that I do not really believe it matters what we believe, other than those that believe in woo woo carry that belief into a set of rules they claim to have communicated with their woo woo maker and then try to force those "made up" rules on others. The fact that you believe in some form of supernatural being or beings in and of itself does not affect me or others since you do not try and set weird and crazy guidelines for others to live by. It can be a positive thing when those beliefs are used to appreciate and preserve our natural environment, things I too believe in as well, although just because it is positive does not make their belief true. Not believing in the supernatural has nothing to do with my appreciation of life and nature and the preservation of our natural resources and the environment. Virtually all organized religions that stem from a belief in supernatural forces claim to have rules derived from some of their members claiming to have communicated with that force (aka God). I have a real problem with that. On a less intrusive scale, I dislike the idea of animal sacrifice claimed to be dictated by their special communication with the supernatural. I dislike the idea of Eskimos whale hunting simply because that is the way their ancestors survived and associating that with a spiritual activity, when the sacrifice of that animal is no longer necessary for their survival. Nana, you always leave me with the impression that you are a very kind and wonderful person, but I believe you would be that exact same kind person with our without your spiritual beliefs.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 6:53 AM

Ya know,...

I was reading the article about the Woman Bishop in Africa and I noticed she referred to...uh....well for lack of a better expression -- real-time conversations with God.

A lot of folks -- you know rationalists -- often ask religious folks who make these kinds of claims (like real-time conversations with God) if they actually heard a physical voice, through their ears, during this conversation with God.

And who could blame them for not wanting to answer?

After all, no-one in their right mind wants to be stigmatized as "hearing voices in his/her head."

But really, when ya get right down to it, isn't that exactly what it is? Voices in their heads?

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 3:19 AM

"Africa's first woman bishop admits 'world is watching"


-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 2:05 AM

Well SC, heh there you go again...making a mountain out of a molehill.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 25, 2012, at 1:59 AM


Oh well I am not one to mince words mate.

Atheist, Agnostic, Rationalist, ect...bottom line, I don't believe in any God of any organized religion.

I guess a fella could split hairs, but what would be the point?

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 12:09 PM

News: "..even though I am an atheist"

I don't believe I've seen you admit you are an atheist. It seems way back you claimed only to be an agnostic, and had to do with the percentage of being positive. Glad to see you've accepted that label, even though it is still held in a negative light by most.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 5:02 AM

Nana: "..UNLESS of course, you have subscribed to the PHILOSOPHY that 'Science has all the answers to all the questions - period'. So which is it for you? Tool or philosophy? or both?"

It is a Tool. I am not sure what semantics you intend to interject in this, but it is simply the most powerful tool and for trying to understand the secrets the universe has to offer. That does not mean I am a cold our species has, and quite frankly the only tool of real value for continuing to make our lives more comfortable hearted Spock-like person that does not believe in the value of art, love, and all the other emotions we go through. I believe the origins of all emotions are purely chemical and not metaphysical or mystical. A mystery does not mean it is mystical; mysteries are only solvable by science. The deep emotion of love is no different for you than it is for me, it is just that I believe the origin of it is not the same as you probably believe?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 5:01 AM


You need to get your pup right with Jesus mate.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 10:27 PM

News I'm not so sure that you aren't misleading your pets by electing Christian practice, and tradition. You are far too humble. You should accept the role with which they are inherently comfortable. If you feel more comfortable with dual Gods you, and AW could share the joyous responsibility.

I want to share a little homily with you.

My dear pup in step with her innate traditions that go back thousands of years is a mighty hunter of backyard mice, and voles. She captures them, and tosses them in the air, catching them while they are still in the air. They expire from the shock to their emotions. I have seen the same behavior on video from wolf pups. As I am in the role of all seeing, I have meanwhile prepared the garden and planted providently. After her play she buries the rodents in the garden where, having come home, they rest in peas.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 8:02 PM


About 6 months ago I had to bury our precious kitty, Karl (named after Karl Marx).

He had lived a very long and happy life. In his 14th year he developed a kidney disease common to older kitties.

Based upon the advice of our vet, we prolonged his life and put off euthanasia until the point where he clearly no longer found value in life. We allowed him to die with dignity, at home, on his favorite spot on the couch. Thank goodness our vet makes house calls. Karl never felt a thing. He just went to sleep.

I gave him a good Christian burial, buried him in the back yard, and marked his grave with a cross.

I figured it was the least I could do for him considering how much love he gave to Aussie Wife and me.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 5:50 PM

Yeh she does News, she believes that I am God. Not to be vain, but I'm thinkin' that she has picked a benevolent one. She doesn't get mixed messages from me, I do not punish her for reasons she can't understand, and therefore she is never forced to accept it as God's will. I never let her go hungry, nor lost, nor be harmed. I heal her wounds, and she actually has a constant hands on expression of her God's love. I doubt that she could understand it anyway, or is even interested in the concept of eternal life, butI make no promise of that. In other words to her I am a God of positive acts, her experience is such that she has no need to accept anything based on faith. She has no doubt, she knows.

If only all Gods would be so straight forward, and prove their alleged powers by consistent loving constructive use of same. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 4:46 PM


If I understand some of your archived posts correctly, I understand you have a pet dog you love.

I too am a pet owner.

I too love my pets.

I have 2 dogs, Buddy, a Fox Terrier/Maltese mix and Dot, a Jack Russell/Australian Cattle Dog mix. I also have a bunny rabbit who lives in the house. His name is Harvey, but I just call him Bunster.

As pet lovers, my wife and I were rather distraught at some recent news from hack home about a fella I used to know failing to give his deceased dog a decent burial and just disposing of the dogs body in the bush.

So I thought about it and I have decided that even though I am an atheist, my dogs are in fact Christian, as is my bunny rabbit, and gosh darn it every pet deserves a decent Christian Burial.

I suppose most folks don't give a lot of thought to their dogs religious preferences, but perhaps its worth considering.

So I thought I would check with other pet lovers and see if their pets also have a religious preferences. You have a pet. Does he or she practice any particular religion?

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 4:03 PM

Oklahoma Reader

Well mate, if I was someone wanting to test that and I didn't want to wade through the case-law, I sure would check with my attorney before I set out to publish any details of a the life of the guy who works in the boiler room.

Then I would get a second opinion.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 3:34 PM

No other way to say it News, your opinion is in error. Truth is an absolute defense against charges of defamation in every state, whether the charges involve private, or public personages.

The point is that if it is truth by definition it is not defamatory. http://www.publishlawyer.com/carousel4.h...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 12:10 PM

Not in any State that I am aware of.

Truth is not a defense to slander or libel of a private person.

Truth is a defense in the case of folks who make their living in the public eye.

A publisher reporting the dirty little details and facts in the divorce of Ricky and Lucy Ricardo has no worries, but take the same approach to the fella who works down in the boiler room and its a Tort.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 2:07 AM

You said News; "Oh and may I add, that even if a statement is true, if the statement is made regarding an individual who does not make his living in the public eye (private citizen), it is slander. If its written, its libel.

Truth is not a defense to slander or libel in the case of a private citizen."

Incorrect News, check it out. Both libel, and slander are predicated on false declaration, thus both are within the category of defamation. Libel is seen defamation, slander is heard defamation. Truth is always a defense, in fact the primary defense to either.

The gist of the public figure doctrine is that malice must be proven.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 11:54 PM

Nana, it is a tool, an extremely valuable tool. Religion is much more like philosophy.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 3:56 PM

Oh and may I add, that even if a statement is true, if the statement is made regarding an individual who does not make his living in the public eye (private citizen), it is slander. If its written, its libel.

Truth is not a defense to slander or libel in the case of a private citizen.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 2:23 PM

Smart Dog

Well yes of course, libel and slander have never been regarded as protected speech.

Such matters were decided by English Common Law (which is the basis of American Common Law) long before we were ever a Nation.

Slander and libel remain actionable torts.

I did not mention them because they are not protected speech, nor are they regarded as barriers to free speech.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 2:17 PM

News forgot to include slander and libel in his list of unprotected speech.

Although it appears that most folks today have no idea that is is illegal to make up damaging lies about others and spread them around.

Today we call that politics.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 8:26 AM

Eric Hovind vs 6th Grade Atheist...


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 4:50 AM

OK, Nana, I used the wrong word, although I think many adjectives could be used to express the comparison. How about the word WONDERFUL?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 4:42 AM

"Paleontologists find 6.5-foot tall penguin fossils in Antarctica"


The find is 34 million years old.

For our Christian fundamentalist readers, that would be 6000 years old.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 7:54 PM

Indeed mate,

That is an enormous discovery. The perchlorate not only could be the foundation of an oxygen/carbon based life, but in fact its something that has many uses including rocket fuel. It might also be possible to manipulate it enough to release huge amounts of oxygen into the atmosphere.

This is a truely amazing discovery.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 7:51 PM

Mars Mystery: What HAS Curiosity Discovered?

"This data is gonna be one for the history books. It's looking really good," John Grotzinger, lead scientist of the MSL mission."

Science is so much more powerful than religion! I can't wait until we hear the detail of this new discovery!!


-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 5:17 PM

The Courts have been consistantly clear on free speech rights.

The only exception are those forms of speech that incite violence upon the Government, sedition, and treason.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 4:34 PM


Wrong again mate.

Free Expression = Free Speech.

Also, our Bill of rights exists to protect every individual in America.

There are no exceptions.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 4:32 PM


Public land belongs to the public.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 4:28 PM

News: "Denying 100% of the People their Right to free expression is just as bad as denying 1 person their Right to free expression"

1. Are you equating free speech with free expression? I believe there is a difference and that free expression might have more limitations than free speech, although extreme uses of each might at rare times be justifiably limited.

2. Limiting one person out of a million freedom of expression because it is considered detrimental to society, although in general I am against such action, is not "just as bad" as limiting all the others.

I feel I am splitting hairs on this issue with you News, as I'm fairly confident we are both very close to the same appreciation of freedom of speech and expression. Very little offends me, and for the most part, I think that most people that show offense should just get over it and the government needs to stay out of our personal lives and business, unless it negatively affects the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by others.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 4:28 PM


Denying 100% of the People their Right to free expression is just as bad as denying 1 person their Right to free expression.

I support the Constitution and the case law.

This lower court decision will be reversed by a higher court.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 5:38 AM

News, you do have a tendency to blow things way out of proportion. You had previously used "free speech" to include putting up a nativity scene, not actually speaking. Yes, I agree we all have free "speech" anywhere in public. Why did you imply that I was against free speech with your indignation? Free speech does not give any of us the right to put something up or build on public land, which is what your prior post included as free speech. And of course free speech does not include yelling "fire" in a theatre, nor does it include screaming obscenities, nor does it allow you to put signs up on public property.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 12:34 AM

My right to speak in public trumps any claim you may have to not be offended.

So says the US Constitution.

So says the Supreme Court.

So says American Commonlaw.

You can complain, you can protest, you can do a lot of things but you cannot stop anyone from speaking freely in public.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 9:03 PM


In a society that enforces free speech rights, you have no right at all to not be offended. None.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM

News: "Violating every person and group their Right to free speech is just as much a violation of the 1st Amendment Free Speech provision as is the denial of just 1 person's free-speech rights."

Glad to hear it was in-fighting between Christians, and not those **** atheists complaining :-) However, News, I don't think this is a free speech issue. If we allow any group to display anything on public property, certainly a judgment as to whether that display might be offensive must be taken into account. What if those who really believe in Voo Doo wanted a day of their own to display blood-letting or other aspects of their religion, or another group wants to display a form of porno or something that might offend Christians such as an upside down Jesus on the cross, should that be allowed as free speech? Is it free speech to allow a religious group to be allowed to ask everyone at a pep rally to bow their heads in prayer?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 7:00 PM

Nana: "..spirituality is that which is NOT written down, is NOT dogmatic, is NOT canonized and is NOT applicable to all adherents."

You say what it is NOT, but what then is spirituality? I dare say it is too subjective to define and therefore just a "feeling". Whatever you define it as, I would guess that would be what most of us feel when we witness birth, the strong feeling of love or infatuation, the amazement of the universe as science unfolds its mysteries to us.

Nana: "demeaning judgement that 'tribal people' are somewhere BETWEEN modern humans and animals says a world in and of itself.."

I certainly do not feel I am demeaning anyone. I feel confident you could take a tribal child out of the jungles of the Amazon from a tribe that has never seen civilization and they might very well have the same intelligence capability that any child in any advanced society might have. I am simply referring to the belief in spirits based on lack of understanding about the physical universe that the rest of us have been exposed to via science. I maintain that the reason these beliefs in spirits exists is simply because of the lack of understanding of the physical universe. I don't believe any other species (possibly porpoises, whales, or elephants) has the ability to understand the physical universe, although perhaps it is only man that can jump to the conclusion that spirits exist.

Nana: "We NOW know, via genome studies, that 'we ARE all related' - to the lowly sponge.."

It is a great leap from genetic similarities to a plant possessing intelligence and/or experience of pain or pleasure. Are you suggesting same?

Nana: "your antipathy toward ANY knowledge that is not Western science based is itself a religion."

Understanding of the physical universe is not at all confined to Western science. And to call the understanding of the methodology of science as a religion is really wrong. Based on Wiki:

"Religion is a collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values:

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 6:28 PM

No disageement here News. A Creche, Santa Claus, and various ethnic symbols are all fine with me. The sticking point is when public officals exclude Jewish seasonal symbols, Kwanza, or anything else. Hell I'm not opposed to a garland entwined swastika, even if it is next to a Menorah, or KKK symbols next to the Kwanza symbols. LOL Now concepts such as that tend to crumble the foundations of liberty, but they should not. Free speech for one, free speech for all!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 2:42 PM

Well mate, really this is a free speech issue.

All members of the public are entitled to equal access to the use of public lands. We the Public own the public lands, and We the Public have the right to the use of public lands, subject to some restrictions -- none of which include limiting free speech.

The issue, as I understand it, here is this:

The city-managed, public land has been traditionally used by various groups, simultaneously, to get their message out during the holiday season.

Some Christian groups complained to the city about another group's message.

The city responded by denying all members of the public access to the public land for free-speech purposes.

The city erred.

Violating every person and group their Right to free speech is just as much a violation of the 1st Amendment Free Speech provision as is the denial of just 1 person's free-speech rights.

I don't have the solution to the problem of the conflicting messages, but I do know that violating the civil rights of Christians, Atheist, or any other group or person is wrong.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 1:52 PM

News you will be happy to learn that we have a big, and bold granite display of the ten commandments right here on the grounds of our Oklahoma State Capitol. It is pretty near the oil derrick on the grounds, that other thing Okies worship. Nary a peep from the ACLU which has apparently washed its hands of Oklahoma.

I'm thinkin' of asking if I may put a little metal marker in the ground near the granite simply stating "Free Thinkers". You know something similiar to the little ones disenfranchised poor folks put on their graves. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 9:16 AM


"Judge rules against Christians in Santa Monica Nativity battle"


This is a direct attack on the 1st Amendment guarantee of the right to free speech.

I hope this decision will soon be overturned by a higher court.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 4:12 AM

"Churches sue California city to bring back nativity scene"


Well here we go again...

Friends, just between you, me, and the fly on the wall, I enjoy a nice Nativity Scene. I always have.

Ya know what else? I also like to see my fellow Americans who happen to be Christian enjoy their right to free speech.

The city is wrong.

Bring back the Nativity Scenes, please.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 1:47 PM

Well said ND. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 9:04 AM

Moses had an itch that he just had to scratch.

John the Baptist lost his head for a love match.

Judas said no very loudly times three

and Jesus looked down from a carpentered tree.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 4:54 PM

And Cheetah - the mountain man in me has learned to spot the toxic clingers-on at somewhat of a distance and to be cautious - and stay clear of - the stench of the fertilizer whenever possible.

Here's another thing to consider.

I watched one day as a couple of four-legged alpha males sparred in the woods - oblivious to the fact that I or anyone else might be nearby. They were each, in fact, so intent on gaining ground on the other and becoming Number One - that neither of them heard the gentle rustle of the leaves and the crack in the wind just before the bullet passed through the left shoulder blade of the biggest and knocked him to the ground.

The other Alpha Male stood there for a moment -apparently thinking he had defeated his fallen foe - and just long enough for a bullet from another rifle to knock him off his feet.

Two perfectly good specimens of their kind are now no more because they were so intent on defeating each other and making it known just who was Number One - Monarch of the Forest one might say - that they were both vanquished by an unknown, unseen enemy.

I think we both - you and I - possess a bit -maybe more - of that mountain man spirit and wisdom that we might be able to sit back and let the Alpha Males spar - knowing that soon enough - they will meet their expected end.

Happy Watching!

-- Posted by gentle ben on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 8:08 AM

Cheetah -

I understand your comments completely - and I respect your stand on this matter. Just wanted to let you know we (I at least) miss you and your input. Must say - it does get kind of toxic in here at times. I try not to let it bother me personally - or to take it too personally - which is hard for me - and to let it kind of roll off my back.

That being said - did you guys get any venison yet this season?


-- Posted by gentle ben on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 7:45 AM

"Rogue Planet Spotted 100 light-years away". I think most of you who understand the value of science will find this new discovery extremely interesting -- BBC News.....


Science makes religion seem so small and mentally confining!

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 2:39 AM

News: "We poor heathens..."

Maybe I am missing a point you are trying to make that is somewhat disguised by your indignant response? Are you somehow wanting to defend belief in spirits as really existing while the belief in a single God as being false? Just what is your point?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 2:34 AM

News: "We poor heathens should be grateful to all those good Europeans..."

Your post addresses nothing I have said, and borders on irrationality. In missing my point, your misplaced aggression makes it difficult for you to address the assumptions I have made as well. All of us can trace our roots back to tribal peoples at some point. I certainly have Indian blood in me, albeit not much. That has nothing to do with the point. Again, I maintain that any person or associated group that believes in a spirit in the sky (rock or lake for that matter) has no logical backing for that belief and further, it is the foundation from which modern religions took root. For tribal peoples to have such beliefs is easily understandable. Your insults about Europeans are grounded in real atrocities that I agree took place, although it has nothing to do with my point. I will go even further than you to suggest that those same Europeans that should have been enlightened by the knowledge of science all around them no longer have a valid reason to hold on to the irrational beliefs espoused by the ancient (tribal) holy books they follow. Modern man exposed to the knowledge of math, science, and biology has no excuse to believe in the spirit in the sky. There are no spirits in the sky, rocks, lake, or inside a mountain. Nor do those who have an excuse to believe that get a free pass by everyone else to accept those beliefs as true.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 2:24 AM



-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 10:19 PM

"My God"


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:51 PM

Ah, yes I see RT,

We poor heathens should be grateful to all those good Europeans who took the time and trouble to come on over to America and define us in their way, through their eyes, while they helped themselves to our land, helped themselves to our resources, raped and murdered our woman and children, destroyed our culture, destroyed our language, and murdered all but a handful of us.

Yes, I should certainly be sorry for daring to challenge that European-decedent definition of my heathen grandparents as a racist statement. How dare I even imply that it is rooted in the racist perception of the children of those Europeans.

Really, as those European-decedents told us at Wounded Knee, we should be grateful for all they have done for us...including defining us for us.

Thank you.


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 8:41 PM

Years ago I had a doctor tell me that it is mostly poison ivy east of the Mississippi and mostly poison oak west of it. Also, it is my understanding that it primarily starts by contact with the oil based resin from the plant, and not spread by wind. That being said, I swear I breakout just by the mention of it, even now :-( If you get that resin on your boots, it can continue to reinfect any time you touch that resin. Wash your clothing and footwear! Everyone can get it in your bloodstream, but its manifestation out to the skin varies greatly by individual. So, you are not immune, you just don't have the skin outbreaks as severe as some.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 7:03 PM

News, your racist comment is way out of line. I'm not talking about anyone no longer living in remote and isolated places, which hardly anyone lives in today. I'm talking about indigenous people as in tribal peoples mostly back in the 1800's back to and before Jesus. And, I am only saying that the belief in spirits is just as unfounded as the belief in Muhammad or Jesus, or thor or other deities. However, claiming there are spirits in certain things as tribal native Americans, is quite benign mostly, and certainly no negative impact on others who do not believe in those spirits. On the other hand, protecting our environment for any reason, whether it be scientific or lack of knowledge is still for the common good. I still maintain that the idea of spirits originating in early tribal man is the root ideas that is also the origin of modern religions.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 6:51 PM

Cheetah I am literally one of those folk immune to poison ivy. I consider myself fortunate. Nevertheless, when I am deep in the woods with friends, I try to be mindful of their vulnerability, and follow that by seeking mutually constructive pastimes. I do that despite noting that some others may not. I know that there are others who do not share my perspective. I'll be darned if I would leave that opportunity to commune because of them. I probably don't do a good enough job of supporting my vulnerable friends, but I certainly miss them when they forego all that is good about the sometimes swampy deep woods. Thus I urge them to cover up well, and come on in. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 5:51 PM


Besides being completely factually incorrect, your comment is filled with racist nonsense.

As an Indigenous American, I don't appreciate that.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 2:26 PM

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to challenge several of you about the historical role of indigenous peoples and their relationship to religion. I have a respect for tribal peoples, mainly because they learned to live off the land and in many/most cases only used the resources they needed to survive. They appear to respect what we call nature, and I do respect them for that. However, my feeling is that tribal peoples are really somewhere between modern man and animals that live by survival in the wild. Obviously they are our human species, so much more closely related to modern man that wild animals. However, their beliefs in all sorts of spirits, although mostly benign, I believe is the original source of influence that is the foundation of the major religions of modern man. Our religions evolved as did we from indigenous people. Their superstitions and beliefs in spirits helped them try and understand what they couldn't explain, not totally unlike Christianity and Islam tries to do today. As in modern religions, their beliefs were also founded by ignorance. I undoubtedly expect variations of opinions on this.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 4:03 AM

Oklahoma Reader

Not only that mate, but he has already lost half his clergy (the ones currently in prison for pedophilia) and if he drives the gay priests away, he won't have any clergy left...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 4:35 PM

Does anyone, but me find it hilariously hypocritical that the Pope, and his pals have began an all out drive against homosexual rights?

Could it be that they are afraid that the dwindling number of Priests would be further eroded if more homosexuals were free to engage instead in same sex loving relationships?

LOL! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 3:11 PM

"Five Biggest LIES About Christianity"


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 11:56 AM

Oh, SC opted to take his ball and go home a long time ago.

Apparently his "thought provoking posts" turned out to be based on mythology and conflicted with fact.

When confronted with facts, he basically was confronted with 2 options -- prove his extraordinary claims or sit down.

He's been quiet ever since.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 11:36 AM

Anyone seen Smokin Cheetah lately? His posts were always thought provoking.

-- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 10:01 AM

Lol...well, I may not be the sharpest blade in the drawer, but I'm also not crazy enough to disagree with Aussie Wife...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 2:45 AM


Yes, and she and I are in full agreement.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 2:17 PM


Yeah, you think I take the cake...only because the queen of hard-headed cynics, Aussie Wife, doesn't post here much...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 12:22 AM

Thanks ND. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 12:17 AM

Flash from the past -- 4 great performances from a simpler time.





-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 3:47 PM

Frankly, its the Planet of the Apes and what those crazy talking monkeys will do next that worries me.


-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 2:56 PM

Come on ND,

You know I don't buy into any of the crazy religious nonsense or their crazy superstitions.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 1:03 PM

I stay cool when others start to fuss

I like my ever enlarging hippocampus

not one often forced to a fearful duh

I'm thankful for a smaller amygdala ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 11:00 AM

Lol.. ND...your porch light's on!

You are absolutely correct, in my opinion.

I wonder if perhaps that is why a lot of folks love horror films?

Do you recall any of those old creature feature horror films folks used to watch on late-night TV back in the 60's and 70's?

You know, those old horror films from the 30's and 40's like "Dracula" starring Bela Lagosi or "The Wolf Man" starring Claude Rains?

Recently, those movies are showing on my big screen plasma TV every Saturday night for an exclusive audience -- Aussie Wife and me.

I call it our "Date Night" because even though during the week she and I tend to be too busy to sit down and watch films together, but no matter what, we watch creature features together every Saturday night.

I love those old films and they can still send a chill down my spine!.



-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 4:32 AM

Excellent point RT.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 10, 2012, at 11:38 AM

R, it is totally ludicrous tying Obama to the anti Christ. For everyone but you, that is a "duh" statement. However, if you take the meanings as purely "against Christ", that is probably accurate, but we just don't know because he cannot take the chance and tell us. Or maybe stretch it a bit and decipher as against the concept (or reality) of Christ. I do believe Obama, as well as most really intelligent individuals who won't come out of the atheist closet, does not believe in Christ as the supernatural all-in-one sky daddy. But, like all intelligent beings walking around the masses of religious bigots, he knows he has to play the game of "acting" religious or his/their political and economic success would be over. The real problem with overly religious individuals is that non-believers are all anti-Christ in their view. This is exactly how "religion poisons everything".

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Nov 10, 2012, at 7:03 AM

Thanks News,

I appreciate that!

I am a swell person.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Nov 10, 2012, at 6:14 AM

Oh yeah that's it mate, pick on indigenous people.

You must be a real swell person.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 3:29 PM

Hmmm, according to News' description of the antichrist; it COULD be the statue of Crazy Horse that has been under construction for over 60 years in South Dakota.

No worries then, as they've barely finished his face. The antichrist won't be rolling in here for another 300 years or so.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 2:46 PM

ND, all scientists agree, the Antichrist is coming...its just a matter of time.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 8:57 PM

Ye are of little faith ND...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 11:00 AM


Getting back to our discussion,

I found an interesting article which provides additional Bible-based descriptions of the Antichrist.

For example, he won't have any interest in the ladies (yeah, one of those), he will be stone-faced with a fierce continence, and he will be "very proud and boastful.


I don't know if that description fits Obama or not, but it is interesting to know what characteristics the Antichrist will possess.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 5:19 AM


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 1:50 AM

Ah News it is hard to pull off dead pan humor with the written word, but by Jove you've done it! ROTFLMAO

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:40 AM


I enjoyed the essay (and video) you posted the link to very much.

I think the author definitely did his homework.

We cannot simply rule out his thesis at this point. He does present strong support for his thesis, and he may indeed be correct. Of course, there isn't much we can do about it now I guess. The election is over.

I am curious as to what we can expect next if the author is correct.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:11 AM

By the way r, the President who saved our nation, Abraham Lincoln, was probably subjected to more accusations of being Satan, and/or Antichrist than any other president. It was mostly by those folks of the deep south. I expect there a lot of folks down there now that feel that our current President is an especially uppity Satan. Hell no they ain't forgettin'. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 11:45 PM

Well r what I make of it is that is some twisted sick stuff by just another of the many nuts that has blown from the wacky tree claiming to be Christian on their first bounce when they really don't know where they are, or who they are.

Has there ever been a President that wasn't accused of being Satan, or the AntiChrist?

Do you recall when similar folks made much of the fact that each of The Gipper's names Ronald, Wilson, Reagan, has six letters? 666! Horrors! Note that even his nick namehas six letters (Gipper)! LOL

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 11:30 PM



Make what you want of it I just thought it was interesting.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 10:29 PM


I don't know if its fair to say religion took a hit.

However, the cons have been living in a bubble for at least 12 years now, and clearly the evangelicals "values" are far removed from reality.

The cons started the culture war on America and We the People ended it.

We the People -- 1

Evangelicals -- 0

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 9:48 PM


Yeah, it was that bad mate.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 9:41 PM

Back on topic.. Did religion take a big negative hit with the GOP loss last night? I believe so, and a well deserved hit. Apparently you don't need religion to be good, but you do need religion to be crazy, and crazy lost big time last night.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 8:14 PM

Everyone makes mistakes, so I for one would like to see him come back with an apology and promise to refrain from posting when not on his meds (or Jack Daniels). He did have some interesting points of view, many very rational with a few on the fringe. I doubt he has an Id but could always surface with a new one. Of course, I didn't see the post so it very well could be too outrageious to consider reinstatement?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 8:11 PM

Yeah OKR, I had that figured out yesterday.

The warrior class is not well known for their critical analysis skills beyond those limited skills necessary for tactical battlefield movement.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 5:43 PM

O. K. News, I'll let it go. LOL

"There is a time to laugh and a time not to laugh, and this is not one of them." -Inspector Jacques Clouseau

" Anonymity is a virtue. Every fool knows that. Anonymity's next to cleanliness and I don't have to tell you what that's next to."-Clouseau


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 4:55 PM

News here is some supporting circumstantial evidence. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja7-U_odE...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 4:40 PM

"After that, he seemed to have no further comments."

I'm not sure News, but I think I may have heard an echo. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 4:21 PM


I was shocked and amused, all at the same time.

His comment -- directed at Eric -- was not there for long, but yeah I read it. I even hurried my wife into my office to read it because I knew it would not be there long. And, while we did have a very good, hard laugh about it (we're only human), we both felt that directing his anger at Eric was not funny, highly offensive, and completely un-called for.

The first thing that was obvious from his comment was the fact that he had appeared to have lost all personal self-control...lol. It was as if he had lost his mind.

Apparently, previously one of our commenters (lol) had pointed out his lack of qualified support for one of his wild claims, and apparently he felt that was unfair to him. Not long after the commenter had pointed out his lack of support for his thesis statement, his profanity-littered, hyper-rant, directed at Eric, showed up in the forum.

Really, in retrospect, it was a classic...lol.

After that, he seemed to have no further comments.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 4:04 PM

Well, I think despite whatever motivates him, he certainly should know the basics of what is and is not acceptable within our civil society -- basic right from wrong.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 1:40 AM

Well Bohdi pretty much admitted that he was unbalanced several times. I don't think he needed to go that far to prove the point. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:19 PM

And may I add that poor Eric sure as heck did not deserve to be treated in such a callous way what-so-ever.

That is the part that really bothered me, his completely inappropriate, personal, profanity filled attack on Eric.

It was a vicious, pointless attack on a good man who was just doing his job.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 9:44 PM

Oh it was very bad OKR.

The language he used and the things he said were of the nature that some have said before -- and they were all banned from commenting in this forum after their similar statements.

I can tell you this much my friend, it was just the kind of thing one would expect from anybody who has described themselves as "...a little bit fascist."

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM

I didn't see the comment by Bohdi, but if it was an attack on the best darn editor the MDN has had in my lifetime it was way off base. By the way that is coming from someone that has had far more comments deleted by Mr. Crump than BohdiLi.

Eric does an impeccable job of riding herd on this rowdy bunch. He could just as well choose to just flush this tangled mess of argumentative voices.

All I can say Bohdi is get over yourself, and come back a wiser man. It is your choice to grow, or shrink. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 5:43 PM


I don't know if are still there or not, but I do hope you see this, my last response to any further comments you may wish to contribute to this forum.

You are free to call me anything you wish. I can assure you that you are neither the first nor will you be the last person to call me names. To me its all just sticks and stones, and I always consider the source. As the old saying goes, "Call me whatever you will, just don't call me late for supper."

But sir, when I read the terrible things you said to Mr. Crump, I was shocked.

Thank goodness its been deleted.

Eric Crump is an outstanding Newspaper Editor, a man of impeccable integrity, and is an extremely fair and impartial moderator. He works hard to be fair.

I hope sir that you will remember that while you may have some imagined dispute with Editor Crump, he has the deep respect and admiration of most, if not all, the regular readers of the MDN Speak Out forum.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 5:24 PM


I hope you might enjoy this little tune on your way out mate.

Like so many before you...


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 4:56 PM

Oh, I should note that the essay cited below was originally linked by Oklahoma Reader on the politics forum.

After reading it, I thought it would be interesting to repost it here and perhaps hear the opinions of some of our more devout commenters.

Thanks OKR for the original posting of the link.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 2:12 PM

"Jesus for President 2012"


An interesting, growing perspective within the American Christian Community. Governance based upon the Teachings and Acts of Jesus of Nazareth (PBUTH).

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 2:05 PM

Speaking of Mensa, did you know that comments by members in their Oklahoma publication run six to one conservative. Comments by members from Oregon for instance run six to one liberal.

I reckon itsa culture thang. B. S. doesn't stop at a certain I.Q. level and above.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 12:44 AM

"If somebody messes with you, you invade them, you send in ground troops, and you torture -- and you do not worry about the consequences 'cause there won't be any. You're {America) the only country that matters. You're (America) the policeman of the World, you're the role model for the rest of the World, and I'm here to help ya.

So sayeth American Jesus


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:45 PM

Oh, OK, I see the problem.

We were talking about 2 different Jesus.

You must be referring to American Jesus.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:35 PM

Another myth cleared up by BohdiLi:

Jesus spoke English, according to BohdiLi.

Wow, we sure are fortunate to have a Bible scholar amongst us!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:20 PM


So, all the clergy are wrong. Clearly, Jesus supports war and violence.

I bet he hates Muslims especially, eh mate?

As a matter of fact, I bet that whole Sermon on the Mount thing is just a story made up by peace-nicks to confuse the people into thinking Jesus loves peace.

Either that or the quote you cited was out of context.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:13 PM

Smart Dog


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:06 PM

Well, there you have it. The only beer we should be drinkin' is "McCain's wife's beer."

'merican Jesus said so.


-- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 6:57 PM

Well, my thinking is that Jesus would also be categorized as an anarchist as he opposed the religous establishment and the government offed him, according to the story.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 6:44 PM

OK, I think I have figured out the discrepancy.

Apparently, there are 2 Jesus.

Jesus of Nazareth (PBUTH), Prophet, Philosopher, Rabbi, known for his love of peace, love of the poor, and compassion for the infirmed and needy children, elderly, and everyone in-between.

Then there is the Jesus worshiped by most Americans, American Jesus.


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 2:01 PM

Interested Too

I absolutely agree. He was definitely married and I would bet she accompanied him and that her name was Mary Magdalen.

Just my opinion...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 1:49 PM


Jesus had his disciples give their money away.

In the modern church; it's....follow the money.

I know that you already are aware of this. I agree, Jesus had to be a great person. It's too bad that we don't have all of the pertinent information about him.

It would not end the world if it turned out he was married, but to hear some people talk, it was more natural for him to hang out with 12 smelly, dirty guysd than to have a wife.

Realistic? I don't think so.

I think he was married and left on his mission with his wife's approval. After all, who on earth knew him better than she?

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 1:12 PM

Interested Too,

Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth (PBUTH) was certainly a great teacher and probably the single most influential humanitarian in World history.

I personally believe he was, much like the Prophet Mohammed (PBUTH), a deeply compassionate man who regarded the plight of the masses of poor as a priority problem of serious concern.

I often wonder how Christians rectify their love of war with Jesus' love of peace. After all, where there is war, there is no peace.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 12:58 PM


Is there somewhere in the universe where thoughts were all unchained,

where encumbrances are all gone and just the thoughts remained?

A place where there is an atmosphere that embraces every one,

and lets some rise and others fall while to each no harm is done.

Where sage thoughts on love, and peace rise highest in the air,

as gently fall each and all of those on destruction and despair.

Though I have not the faith to say that somehow may be so,

I am buoyed by humility as there are things I can not know.

I think I may sometimes do that within the space that is my mind,

and just for a little while a certain calmness I will surely find.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:42 AM

Not to be disrespectful of you, Smart Dog, as I am not overly religious myself...BUT, according to those who tell of Jesus' life, his help to all of us is in his words to us and his sacrifice.

Otherwise, he might be seen as a dictator of sorts, were he around all of the time.

He gave us a choice, and it's up to us whether to heed his words or not.

Having said that; I am on record as having stated that organized religion has fouled things up so badly, it would be difficult to follow Jesus' words, as the churches don't even allow all of the Gospels into their Bible. Therefore, we only get a one sided story to base our beliefs on.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:38 AM

Yeah......ok........if Jesus cheated death and arose, how come he took off after three days?

Sure looks like we could have used his help from time to time throughout history so what gives?

After the Jews and Romans attempted to kill him off and he arose, spent a few days saying "Hi" to old friends and preaching some stuff, did he enter witness protection or what?

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 10:22 AM

"It's Alive!"


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 12:24 AM


Ok,ok, don't tell me. I think I know this one.

Dr. Frankenstein's Monster?

I bet that's it.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 12:03 AM

He overcome death.

He was ressurected.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 11:52 PM

Interested Too

Regarding your comment about Obama...


You present a very, very compelling argument with relatively few words. Frankly, I am pretty impressed.

Good on ya mate!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 2:10 PM

No idea how my previous post ended up here. That's the second post in the past few days to end up in a different spot than I intended. I had not even gone to the religion section before posting it.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 10:31 AM

He got the job done!

We are out of Iraq, and leaving Afghanistan. He helped (if not saved) the auto industry in the US. We now have affordable healthcare for everyone, and all this with an obstructionist Congress in the last 2 years.

He was stronger than any bully they put up against him.

He got bin Laden and we are under 8% unemployement in the US.

He has his flaws, but he certainly has not failed.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 10:29 AM

And come to think of it, this song would appropriate for this discussion as well.



We will finally return to our natural hunter/gather communities of 30 to 50 people and live in harmony with nature again.

It will be a bit painful getting there, but in the end it is best for us and nature.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 6:15 PM

Nana, great article on "no growth" economic theory. It was an interesting read thru all 3 pages, and quite frankly, I think it is just intuitive. It is one of those things that the numbers and theory add up to what seems only rational. As a country or even as a species, we can't sustain growth indefinitely. The so called "tipping point" is now or at least in the very near future. It will be our children's or grandchildren's mess to clean up. Unfortunately, irrational belief in a supernatural being watching over our every move and intervening when we go astray is the reason a lot of people bury their head in the sand over global warming is a major contributing factor for our inaction. Global warming is upon us, and is why we need zero growth (and more specifically in my mind "zero population" growth). Unlike other animals, most of us can see it coming and have the intelligence to alter our behavior. Unfortunately, the delirious religionites will only thwart the tough solutions that will need to be made. The very last paragraph of the article sums up what will ultimately determine how and when we will change our behavior:

"Daly, who's been arguing his case for four decades, has begun to think that only the Earth itself will compel people to act. In a few decades, if basic resources become scarce, prices spike, and climate change is causing global conflict, no-growth thinking could arrive whether we like it or not. "It'll be forced on us," he says. In the end, when it comes to determining the shape of our economy, the planet may possess the most powerful invisible hand of all."

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 9:18 AM

Someone would kill Jesus?

How do they kill an immortal?

That would be a neat trick.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 2:04 AM

The lowdown on magic underwear, and other secrets of The Temple. http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=jv5c...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 12:46 AM

"Negative Campaigns - What if Jesus ran against John McCain?"


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 6:51 PM

If Jesus ran for President...


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 6:37 PM

Do you believe in a red state Jesus or a blue state Jesus?


-- Posted by Echo 9 Hotel on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 5:25 PM


1 thing is absolutely certain, in the struggle between man and nature -- nature always wins in the end. It always has and it always will.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 2:47 PM

"Light from universe's first stars seen"


Oh yeah!!!

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 4:16 AM


Excellent article!!

As I have often pointed out many times, capitalism has a definite end point. It cannot long sustain decreased consumption, fueled by dropping demand (defined in Macro Economics as requiring 2 characteristics --the desire AND ability to trade for goods and services). That is what ultimately must occur as population increases dramatically and scarcity of resources (and consequently, goods and services), ceteris paribus, increases significantly in a finite environment.

Our poor little Planet of the Apes may soon become a far more dangerous, desperate place. When we failed to heed the lessons of Easter Island, we sealed our own fate.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 3:59 AM

"American Jesus"


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 3:31 PM

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