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Speak Out November 1 to December 31, 2012

Thursday, November 1, 2012

The Marshall Democrat-News invites readers to share their views and questions on any issue. Open discussions are often useful and enlightening. Criticism is acceptable as an important part of public conversations, but we expect everyone to treat others with respect. Experience suggests it is best not to post comments while angry. We reserve the right to delete comments that we think include personal attacks, are disrespectful, threatening, obscene or in other ways objectionable. Anyone who repeatedly violates this policy will be banned from participating in our forums.

Past Speak Out conversations

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Oh its sunny and warm here in OZ OKR.

I think I may never get used to celebrating the Christmas and New years holidays in the middle of Summer.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 2:50 PM

Winter Kill

It is that cold efficiency that sends us on the way,

speeding the process, as always nature has its day.

Its tools, bitter cold, ice, snow, and wind

sometimes softly signal it is time for this to end.

As the old buck in the forest lays down that last time,

we in our habitat preternaturally break rhythm with a rhyme.

We say no that is not the way it should be,

slow it, change it, someday it will be me.

The hard edge of nature, is not for such as we.

Ridiculously vainglorious beyond the end

we are more, such message we will not send.

Take me to the forest, and there lay me down,

from whence I came, by nature may I be found.

These thoughts come, as I in my latter years,

look ahead without regret, sadness, or fears,

observing the ambulance at the house next door,

and contemplate that for me it's late, but I have a little more.

As my neighbor takes that last ride but one,

I smile, and think, keep it simple when I'm done.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 30, 2012, at 12:44 PM

Hey ND! All is well at this end and all sentiments are returned in kind.

Keep those mittens handy! :)

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 8:25 PM

Oh and by the way, they didn't exactly ban guns here either.

Lots of folks keep them and use them.

Again, your point is...?

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 6:30 PM

Oh well that's not news to me mate.

I already know what a bunch of murderous cutthroats these Aussies are.

Banning guns doesn't stop them from hacking and slashing with a broken glass down at those clubs in the Cross.

Of course your data was kinda old and out of date and it would be interesting to see if any new policies have made any difference -- but I doubt it.

So, your point is...?

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 6:28 PM

News, some news for you.


-- Posted by litlmissme on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 5:55 PM


Oh well, then I guess you are just up the Creek without a paddle.

Heck, with your attitude we would have had to cancel our part in WW2 because we were "broke" then too.

But we managed anyway, eh mate?

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 2:28 PM

You got that right, Too.

We have two types of public dole: (1) The ordinary citizens who need help; and (2) The self-serving corporate crooks whose lust for power and greed supercedes everything else.

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 11:59 AM

The government isn't broke, we just won't be giving Haliburton as much money for awhile.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 8:45 AM

If the government can't even afford their socks much less solar panels for everybody nice idea but with a broke government it is not going to happen.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Dec 29, 2012, at 7:46 AM

In fact, may I suggest that the tax-payers' dollar would be better spent on installing solar panels on everyone's roofs.

Besides generating most, if not all, of the residential energy needs, the work would could all be done by CCC/WPA type, direct-hire teams of formerly unemployed labor.

This would be a wise use of the Federal Spending Multiplier.

It would help our economy tremendously by creating new consumers of durable goods, and if all the resources used are American-produced/owned, the over all effect would be astounding. It would give a much needed economic boost, create a whole new, American-owned and operated, industry (solar panels and solar panel accessories), and would help solve America's energy needs for generations to come.

In addition, the improved economy would bring the added benefit of adding far more tax revenue to the Treasury, effectively buying-down our federal deficit.

It would be a win-win situation all the way around and we would not have to again lower our standard of living.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 7:09 PM


Its been my experience that solar panels on the roof is all a family needs.

I haven't paid an electric bill since I installed them in April, 2011 -- and I get a check from the electric company for my excess every quarter.

BP can produce electricity any way they want. I won't be buying it either way.


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 6:53 PM


Let's say you work in an area with lots of people.

2 of the people have guns to protect the rest of you.

Also, the people at your work place are in many separate rooms.

A disturbed person gets past security and takes out two rooms with an assault weapon before the armed folks neutralize him in some manner.

Does that make you feel safe?

Now, the same guy comes in with a revolver: feel safer?

Finally, the same guy comes in with a knife or chain saw or (fill in the blank). How's that one?

Those of us that are for banning assault weapons are not going to change our minds no matter how many face book lists, NRA posts, or other links and thoughts are posted at us.

I totally respect your right to feel the way that you do, but please look at both sides of the argument, and read some of the other links posted here.

Facts without substantiation quickly drop to just being opinion.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 9:06 AM

"More Guns" Theory Disproved During Presser"


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 2:05 AM

former editor

The burden of proof is upon the claimant, and she made a whole lot of claims, many of which were probably quite inaccurate.

I really don't mind that she is making unqualified statements regarding what may be the most pressing national concern of our day, specifically, the increasing frequency of mass murders of Americans, and especially our children, with easily obtained assault weapons -- as long as she does not mind other folks pointing out that her claims are empty, meaningless, and without foundation.

After all, she got her "information" somewhere. She was not born knowing that list of information. Is her source a "secret" not meant for the readers eyes?

Its her claim. Its her burden.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 28, 2012, at 1:10 AM

The editor and moderators of this discussion forum do not require peer reviewed citations. The stated objective is to share views and questions in open discussion. It is helpful to leave links to material so other readers can view the source and judge the quality of same. One can nevertheless share views regardless.

-- Posted by former editor on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 10:03 PM


Citation qualification is the academic model used by all accredited, state universities.

In order to be qualified you must have a legitimate source, preferably objective, including facts, expert opinion, and empirical evidence. In addition, the source must be relevant, timely, and must provide its sources as well. In addition, the sources used by your source must also be quantifiable.

However, even if you had provided a source other than you daughters face book page (not a reliable source), you still fail to demonstrate mathematically that there is a positive correlation between regulation of assault rifles and Holocausts/oppression. That alone is enough to disqualify your argument.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:57 PM

Cons, listen up.

When a supporting point of your argument is proved to be wrong, you can no longer use that to support your argument with.

I see the same, already defunct and debunked con arguments being used in the assault weapons regulation argument. Those don't work anymore. They have been disproved.

Such as these debunked con arguments.

"Regulating assault weapons will cause a holocaust."

"Assault rifles are the only thing between us and slavery."

"All weapons are equal."

Just to name a few of the debunked arguments the cons are attempting to resurrect.

So unless you have something new....

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:50 PM

Lmm those cold statistics matter little to the families, and friends of the nearly ten thousand (from your link) people who are murdered by guns each year in the United States. It is disengenuous to point fingers at other countries, and say well it is worse there. It is bad enough here that we should be doing all that we can to stop it.

Continue denying that guns have anything to do with the deaths of people who are murdered by guns, if you so choose. Blame it on the mental health system, blame it on parents who don't raise their kids right, and don't teach proper gun safety. Blame it on every thing under the sun, but guns.

The fact is you can not say that strict control of guns would not drastically lower the number of murders with guns, or even the total number of all murders in the United States because we have never had strict control of guns. You and the rest of those in denial are whistling in the dark, and I mean pitch dark, when you say that guns don't kill. The hard truth is that you don't know, but you will not admit that. Just another opinion, and I am also entitled to mine. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:48 PM

One link was information provided by the UN, so I feel it should be pretty legit. Are there rules what links are qualified as accurate? Oh wait, the links you use only support your opinions, and mine don't support your opinions, therefore, are unqualified.....I see how this thing works!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:41 PM


In my comment below, the last paragraph should read:

"Finally, we know that government oppression can be stopped and empires toppled without ever firing a single shot. So your argument that regulating assault weapons will somehow lead to a holocaust or oppression of the American People flies in face of the facts."

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:10 PM


Without proper qualification, the list you gave us us meaningless.

In fact, I noticed some serious historical errors in your list. That is probably the result of you not checking your sources before you posted all that meaningless nonsense.

In addition, you assume there is a positive correlation between your errant, unqualified claim that regulation of firearms leads to mass murder.

However, you show us not 1 piece of qualified mathematics that proves a positive correlation between the two.

However, while I congratulate you on your effort to somehow end all murders, nothing you posted in your comment is accurate, qualified, or deals with the issue facing our nation -- increased frequency of mass-murder by assault weapons.

Finally, we know that government oppression can be stopped and empires toppled without ever firing a single shot. So your argument that regulating assault weapons will somehow lead to a holocaust just doesn't fly in face of the facts.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 7:06 PM

Another link showing that although the US has the most gun ownership per capta, yet only ranks number 28 in murders with guns.


-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 6:36 PM

Here is a link that gives some interesting factoids, who would have thought that the UK has more violent crimes and they;. . . . wait for it, have no weapons.....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 6:32 PM

Obviously, not much you agree with LOL. My thoughts are the the mental heath system is failing many people fall between the cracks. I feel that a mental exam should be administered before the purchase of weapons, especailly assault rifles. I don't think that the masses need to be punished for the havoc these person's with a history of mental issues have created.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 6:19 PM

Actually lmm this is a forum where people post their own thoughts, and words. That has been covered many times here. I am surprised you hadn't seen it as you seem to be an avid reader of Speakout.

We use links here when we want to give folks an opportunity to read something we have read.

So, do you yourself have anything at all to say about the topic being discussed?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 6:05 PM

I copied that from my daughters facebook page. I didn't look for it's origin, because I didn't have much time when I posted it.

I was under the impression that this was a blog, and not a term paper where sources must be foot noted.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 5:57 PM

News the article she posted as her work has been reported to Snopes.com, and they are researching it. ;) http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/gunh...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 5:51 PM

News it is right wing propaganda, and what littlemissme posted is not her own words. It is all over the web, word for word. Shame on you littlemissme. Have you personally run out of anything to say?

News here are some of the links to what she copied. First from the aptly named pastebin: http://pastebin.com/YnApvnwt Then here: From sodahead; http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/gu... And here: From sticktoyourguns; http://sticktoyourgunsradio.com/a-little... The sites go on, and on.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 5:45 PM

Oh and litlmissme,

Gandhi brought down the biggest Empire the World with outever firing a shot.


Martin Luther King brought down the Jim Crow empire of the South without ever firing a shot.

"I Have a Dream"


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 5:36 PM

People distort the 2nd amendment as badly as they distort the Bible.

Surprise! It's generally the same people!

We might start there with working on those with mental illness, as they are surely delusional.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 5:34 PM


Could you please post the links to the sources of all your citations listed in your last comment please?

I would like to check them for qualification.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 4:38 PM


In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.






Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us.

You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 3:53 PM

A Morality Play: Three Acts

Act I

Momma, momma, little sister is dead!

She was playing on the sidewalk, caught a bullet in her head.

They drove by, must a been fifty shots, so brother said.

Can we move somewhere, away from this bloodshed?

Somewhere that it's peaceful and there is not this sense of dread?

Act II

The kids were on the playground, laughing, and having fun.

A boy dressed in black walked up with a gun.

Hear the children scream, see the children run.

Bang, bang, bang, bang, it seemed to never end,

and it will not, this is more than just a trend.


Dear Mrs. Jones, I'm sorry I shot your son,

when he came to school today we thought he had a gun.

Such a strange boy, and there were the things he's done.

I know that for you there will be no end to grief,

and for me there will never be relief.

Stage direction: The curtain stays up, there is no end to this play.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM

There is a reason that they say, "Don't take a knife to a gun fight."

-- Posted by Interested Too on Thu, Dec 27, 2012, at 8:23 AM

former editor

All weapons are not equal mate.

Yeah tell ya what mate.

We set up a target 25 meters away.

You hire the best knife thrower you can get, I bet he misses the target.

I hire an amateur marksman just barely familiar with an assault rifle -- I bet he at least hits the target, and plenty of ammo left for plenty more shots in the blink of an eye.

If a man comes at a person with a knife, he has to get in close, pray his target does not see him or hear him coming, and that makes a whole lotta difference -- and just let the bad guy try mass murder with a knife. I bet law-enforcement would have no problem taking him down -- if some of the fellas nearby haven't already subdued/killed him.

Your comparison of average murders, albeit with mental health motivations, with a knife in no way reflects on the issue at hand -- mass murder and the ease at which such can be performed with an easy-to-obtain assault rifle.

The knife thing doesn't even come close mate. Its a rather bad analogy because not all weapons are the same.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 6:48 PM

With the rare, severe types of mental illness and psychopathic behavior, ordinary things become weapons, such as a hammer in Spengler's first murder while it was gasoline in Michael Pilato's case. Although Pilato killed three people in his own family, it didn't make headlines here. The Lammers from Bolivar still have a point about difficulty in finding appropriate solutions for particularly difficult mental health cases. In their son's first delusional potential attack, he had a kitchen knife, another common object.


-- Posted by former editor on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 5:27 PM

There are two common threads in each event. History of mental illness and a weapon, with out the mental illness part the weapon would have never been used I estimate.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 4:18 PM

former editor

Yeah, how many of those used and had easy access to firearms to kill firefighters with?

By my count its 1.

How many could he have shot without that easily acquired firearm?

My estimate is 0, how about you?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 2:52 PM

News Across

It is often the immediate family at first risk from the dangerously mentally ill. The Lammers family tried everything in the system available to help their son, but it didn't work. To prevent danger to others, they reported his behavior to police, and he is now in jail. That's our institutional alternative, using jails to house mentally ill people. The Lammers' story is compelling and home grown, right here within Missouri, exposing our state system's flaws. We can start progress at a state level.

In Webster, N.Y., where deranged murderer Spengler killed three (family and volunteer fire fighters), a teen named Michael Pilato will go on trial Jan 14 for setting the Dec. 2011 fire in which he willfully killed three people and injured two (all family members). Perhaps Spengler copy catted several elements. In Arline Spengler's October obituary, donations are directed to the volunteer fire department. One could speculate that attacking firemen was an extension of family disruption. According to a neighbor, Spengler said he was on meds. Something here didn't work to prevent late life murders by a man who had three decades before hammered his grandmother to death.

The common element here is not so much the weapon as the mental condition of the murderers. That is why I respect the Lammers' point of view and that they tried various forms of prevention with the mental health system falling short.

-- Posted by former editor on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 1:07 PM


Maybe we should have talked more about guns before those children were murdered by a nut with a gun.

Maybe we should have talked more about guns before all those folks in that theater were murdered by a nut with a gun.

Maybe we should have talked more about guns before those firemen were murdered by a nut with a gun.

Maybe then we wouldn't have to be talking about it now.

Ignoring the problem won't protect anyone -- including you.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 11:35 AM

former editor

Well why not go all the way into the 21st Century and join the rest of the World by enacting socialized medicine?

Maybe having access to the medical system will help America's mentally ill.

But one thing is for sure, if you want the multiple occurrences of mass-murders to stop, you had best get the guns out of the mix.

More guns = more mass-murder. Less guns = less mass-murder.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 11:31 AM

Articulate parents who prevented their young adult son with dual diagnosis from performing an Aurora style theater (or perhaps Wal-Mart) shooting have important things to say about failures in our mental health system. They are Missourians. Instead of waiting for some national level change that is likely to be inefficient (and Obamacare won't do it), let's start here. We can learn from the Lammers experience, linked here:


-- Posted by former editor on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 9:14 AM

The real problem is that people would rather talk about guns than Christmas.

-- Posted by momaster on Wed, Dec 26, 2012, at 8:48 AM


-- Posted by litlmissme on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 7:08 PM

Gun ownership in this country should no longer be considered a right it should only be considered a priviledge

-- Posted by cheesehead on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 6:01 PM

At the risk of changing this conversation...Merry Christmas everyone!

-- Posted by momaster on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 5:05 PM

Cons, let me ask you something, how long do you think We the People will take to start removing these dangerous weapons from OUR society after the next massacre of our children?

I am betting it won't take long.

While the Cons want to lay a lot of meaningless nonsense on us every time folks are massacred, innocent Americans are needlessly dying in large numbers at the hands of mass-murderers.

That is the fact.

All the good intentions in the World won't change that.

The con strategy of "Guns For All" is the problem, not the solution.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 11:02 AM

What the hey Selmac that decision holds only in Arkansas. Hell, they are as backward there as they are in Oklahoma. Seen any other good Arkansas jokes recently? Folks friendly with pigs, or their sisters, or such? I can hear dueling banjos as I write. ROTFLMAO!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 1:52 AM

To prohibit a citizen from wearing or carrying a war arm... is an unwarranted restriction upon the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns,

the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows,and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege.

Arkansas Court Decision

Wilson v. State, 33 Ark. 557, at 560, 34 Am. - 1878

-- Posted by Selmac8 on Tue, Dec 25, 2012, at 1:31 AM

Christmas wish: Peace and tranquility for all the world.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 8:44 PM


-- Posted by OMG! on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 5:19 PM

"4 volunteer firefighters shot, 2 killed, in apparent 'trap"

"A gunman ambushed four volunteer firefighters who responded to a blaze early Monday in Webster, N.Y., killing two and seriously injuring two others, along with an off-duty police officer."


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 1:52 PM

All I know is that the "Guns for All" approach has already been a complete failure in terms of the loss of innocent life.

The conservative approach has failed and it has failed miserably -- just ask any of the parents in Newtown.

Trying the same failed strategy over and over again won't make that strategy work any better.

We need a new plan and that is going to include placing limits on guns.

Or we can learn to live with the multiple mass killings each year.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 1:40 PM

I am not buying into the 'cure mental health' problems line at all.

Even if someone were on meds for mental illnes; should they miss a day or two of their meds, or if they get an incorrect dosage, all of the work would be undone in a matter of hours.

Are you all suggesting that everyone with a mental illness of any type be escorted 24/7?

Good luck with that.

Here is a scenario for you. A responsible gun owner has trigger locks on their guns and has them in a safe.

The person who wants to cause mayhem is a bright person and plans this out for some time (like the Connecticut shooter did).

So, he has no access to a gun immediately. He takes another weapon (knife, hammer) and kills his mother. Then, he has all the time he wants to get into the gun safe and remove the trigger locks.

This is just one of thousands of scenarios.

At least if assault rifles are banned and making them illegal is the goal....the 'responsible' gun owner won't have any laying about.

Perhaps someone could have been saved had just revolvers been used instaed of assault type weapons.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 10:33 AM


-- Posted by Slater on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 10:25 AM


What I wrote would accomplish what a lot of you folks are wanting, restricting gun purchases greatly.

Here in lies the quandary; no matter what is thrown out there someone is going to object to.

None of these incidences would have taken place if someone would have paid attention to the mental problems that existed in the first place.

As I said before, the weapons that already exist good luck trying to get those under control, I don't have an answer. I do know that people would not readily turn in their weapons, especially those of the criminal sort.

I strongly believe if a law was passed saying that all weapons had to be registered and or turned over to athorities there would be a civil war. I know enough gun owners that would just flat out refuse.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 9:10 AM

"To prohibit a citizen from wearing or carrying a war arm . . . is an unwarranted restriction upon the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege."

~Wilson v. State

-- Posted by Selmac8 on Mon, Dec 24, 2012, at 4:35 AM

And those solutions LMm effect irresponsible gun owners in what way?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 11:09 PM

I think I have said before there needs to be a reform on the mental health system. Anyone who would pose a threat of any kind should be placed in a data base and when applying for a permit for a weapon or to purchase a weapon should throw a red flag. Of coarse that would be a violation of patient client priviage, and wouldn't fly. A mental exam should be a part of the process owning a firearm. No-one in their right mind would kill innocent children, or open fire in a theater.

That is a start.

Video games that infer the killing of humans should be banned.

Any guns that are not being used should have trigger locks on them. This would be hard to enforce, but those persons who want to save lives would indeed follow that set of rules.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 9:40 PM

Kudos to you, and your family, as well as the millions of other responsible gun owners LMM.. However you ignored the elephant in the living room, that being those other millions of irresponsible gun owners. What do you propose that we do about them?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 6:44 PM

Terry M. well said.

The fire arms that are in our home are all equiped with trigger locks. The weapons are then stored in a gun safe that is locked and bolted to the wall. That gun safe is in a closet that is locked. All ammo is locked up as well.

My husband has control of the keys and none of our children were allowed knowlege of the location of the keys.

My husband, myself and our children all enjoy target shooting and hunting. Our children have all been through hunter safety classes and are expected to abide by those practices whenever handling a weapon.

Those are the type of things that should occur by responsible gun owners.

If the guns used in this killing were handled in such a fashion, this young man would not have had access to them, with out his mother unlocking several locks, after all they were her guns.

Not all gun owners take that right for granted. Some are very responsible.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 6:03 PM

I hate to break it to you guys and gals, but there is no one-piece solution to the problem.

Whether the problem is the series of murder-suicide sprees or the fiscal cliff, the economy or our rights, not one of the proposed 'solutions' addresses all aspects of any of these problems.

I no longer maintain a concealed-carry permit, but I still own my firearms. I think there needs to be better control over the availability and possession of certain types of firearms, expanding the current controls presently in place on full-auto firearms (machine guns) to include at least some varieties of auto-loader firearms.

But that isn't the entire solution. There needs to be better analysis and treatment for the mentally ill and unstable. Every significant incident that I can recall that resulted in multiple deaths involving a firearm (short of combat situations) involved someone whose mental health was seen as compromised. The systems of identifying and treating these people needs improvement - a national MENTAL health care law, for example.

With the fiscal cliff and the economy, we clearly need the best of all possible worlds to drag ourselves - and the world economy - out of the doldrums and maximize employment while not breaking the piggy bank and saddling our grandkids with insurmountable debts. And whatever 'solution' that is eventually put in place by the Feds will take longer to really work than any of us - particularly the most vocal critics - will care to believe.

All I can hope is that cool enough heads prevail in the end on these and all other issues addressing our society.

And, by the way, merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

-- Posted by TerryM on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 5:39 PM

News children are portable, and vulnerable where ever they go. Razor wire is not portable.

Now we could make little bullet proof turtle shells that they would put on each time they walked out the front door. Galloping Gallapagos!


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 4:37 PM

Of course firearms reform might be a cheaper and better way.

Still, razor-wire has its advantages.

Just my 2 cents...

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 4:03 PM

OKR and WTF,

Hey now let's not just gloss over this razor-wire idea.

By utilizing this method there is no need to adjust firearm regulation at all.

After all, the bad guys can't kill razor-wire, and they can't get through it very well either (and if they do make it through, they will be hamburger).

It seems like it might just be the ticket!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 2:28 PM

OK Reader,

If someone can afford a gun and ammo they can afford a trigger lock. Let the NRA subsidize it!

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 1:09 PM

LilMissme I'm not talking about turn over your guns. Open your mind to ideas. We all must.

I am not talking about prying your gun from your cold dead hand, I am talking about preventing prying your gun from a child's cold dead hand.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:45 PM

"Happy Xmas (War Is Over)"

John Lennon


"An eye for an eye will leave us all blind."

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:44 PM

Retrofitting three hundred million guns with advanced trigger locks would be a job creating bonanza.

The NRA could finance an advertising campaign supporting it. Just as we have "click it, or ticket" campaigns regarding seatbelts we could do the same with triggerlocks.

For those who can't afford a retrofit we could subsidize it, privately, or publically (from the sales tax on retrofit cost).

People we can do this thing!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:40 PM

If anyone believes that people are readily going to turn over thier weapons without civil unrest they are wrong. It won't happen, that easily.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:38 PM

Before someone mentions what about all the guns already out there? The answer is simple. Recall notices, again just like when our cars are defective.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:03 PM

And then there are the little things that we can do. The following idea occured to me. I have not heard it advanced anywhere. We must get creative in our responses to this crisis.

Every gun sold should have a trigger lock in place when it is sold. It should become in our minds, just another necessary part of the gun.

We have wonderful ability to advance technology. There is no reason why we can not develop a trigger lock that can be removed by a combination known only to the gun owner. There is no reason why we can not develop a warning beep on the gun when replacement of the lock is unintentionally forgotten. We have gotten used to the aggravating beeps when we do not fasten our auto's seat belts, it would be the same with trigger locks.

Recently in a local suburb a police officer mistakenly left his pistol on the nightstand next to his bed. A three year old child wandered in, picked up the gun, and killed himself. I am sure that grieving officer would give any thing if his gun had in place an advanced trigger lock. Maybe it is simple things such as this that I have proposed, that are the answers to our problem.

Think people, think.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 11:54 AM


I think I have the solution -- razor wire.

Have you ever wondered how they keep some of the most dangerous criminals in America INSIDE the prisons?

Yep, razor wire.

And its just as effective at keeping folks out too.

No need for armed police or teachers in the schools, we just wrap the schools in razor-wire.

And a few attack dogs patrolling the perimeter would not be a bad idea either.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 2:42 AM

Our children are the most precious things in the world to most of us. There is nothing that we would not personally sacrifice to assure their well being. We must not slam the political door shut based on what we have been told by this political leader, or that one, nor even because of our closely held beliefs.

Forget all that. This is our children we are talking about. We must wipe the slate clean, start fresh, and think clearly as to everything we can do to protect them. We must not balk at any viable solution.

If putting armed guards in schools will help, do it! If removing assault weapons from society will help, do it! If curtailing the number of rounds in magazines will help do it! If careful expansion of concealed carry will work, do it!

Remember, these are our kids, and we will do anything for them.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 2:14 AM

I guess the base of my question is how can we make sure that guns do not get in the hands of those insane people, growing more in numbers all the time, who are killing our kids in their schools, and on the streets of Chicago?

There is a way, and we must figure it out together.

Escalating armed resistance can not be the answer. We can not guard every spot that the insane choose to shoot children, and shoot back.

Can we guard them on every block, and corner as they walk to, and from school in groups? At park playgrounds where they play after school? Ice cream shops? Afterschool day care?

So many of these insane killers are very intelligent. It is foolhardy to think that they are too stupid to change the venue, if they want to murder large groups of kids.

What a nightmare we have on our hands? What in the world are we going to do about it?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 1:49 AM

Sorry Jason, I apologize. What I said was snarky, and an obtuse joke that I barely got myself.

We can all do better than that. I have asked Eric to delete it.

Addressing your information seriously I must say I am not surprised. We are all left, and right in some way caught up with the guns in our culture.

Wayne Lapierre was right when he said it is our culture that causes the killing, not the guns. He went on to blame Hollywood violence, video games, et al.

Here is the thing though, don't you think that it is easier, and quicker to do away with the guns, than to change a culture of violence that has for over two hundred years been growing like a cancer on our body politic?

What we must do is protect our children from death by gunfire as expeditiously as possible. Too change our culture from what it has become will take at least two generations. We can not wait that long. The only way to do it is to curtail the opportunity to use guns designed to be able to kill our kids quickly.

How to do that can be resolved if we all reason together. If we can not reason together our children will continue to die.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 1:30 AM

The biggest anti gun Senators Barbra Boxer and Chuck Shumer have something in common they both have CCW or CHO.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Dec 23, 2012, at 12:20 AM

Follow you own advice outsider. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 7:02 PM

News flash for OKR and other libs. The election was a month and a half ago. You won the presidency. You increased your majority in the Senate...but instead of governing, all you seem to want to do is whine, bash and further divide. Get over yourselves.

-- Posted by outsider on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 6:57 PM

Good news for folks on the far right,

as we approach this Christmas night.

Old Santa's been hired by the NRA,

he's hired Ted Nugent to drive his sleigh.

He's putting a little hand gun in each child's sock,

sometimes a Colt, but more often a Glock.

Tossed beneath the tree as he races the clock,

a Bushmaster with Red Ryder embossed on the stock.

For each teacher to carry when returning to school,

a machine gun and a copy of the make my day rule.

For janitors, school nurses, even teacher's aides,

flack jackets, helmets, and a couple of grenades.

So listen closely come Christmas eve night,

For a sad old voice, quivering with fright,

Merry Christmas to all, but especially the Right!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 12:16 PM

Hey Eric. How about a story on the donut shop that closed today after 4 years of business on the square? Maybe include something on the new owners and their intentions?

-- Posted by momaster on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 11:19 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Will do.

If there is any logic to more Regulations on Gun ownership, i can't see it! You are not going to stop killings, Its been there since time began.Regardless of what they use. Mental Health around the World has gone to Hell! I would think that's were they should start.

-- Posted by Jo on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 3:04 AM

Yep OKR,

And there are regular bowlers and then there are the crazy type bowlers -- same thing with basketball. If the madman's Mother had been a basketball player then I reckon we would be blaming basketball for what the madman did.

Its a difficult time. Folks want answers -- perhaps answers we will never get. Sometimes human behavior can be so difficult to understand that we are willing to point the finger at almost anything in an effort to understand it.

But in the end, I am pretty sure it had nothing to do with his Mother's religious affiliations, whatever they were.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 1:25 AM

For instance there are these, some of which are churchy folk killing churchy folk, and how can any of us forget the Atlanta Olympics bomber? Eric Rudolph was part of the Christian Identity movement.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 12:56 AM

There are churched nuts, and not churched nuts. A nut, is a nut is a nut, and may bloom in any environment.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 22, 2012, at 12:40 AM


Its been my personal experience that most folks that are Christian tend to be nice, decent people who are interested in doing good works in the name of God.

The recent tragedy has nothing to do with the good folks who attend Church services and worship God.

I can't even imagine why someone would want to tie that young man's crimes to any church and especially the good folks who are members of the Catholic Church.

I guess our desperation to find an answer to the "why" question could lead us in areas that have nothing to do with the tragedy.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:50 PM

In answer to the question, "Why do you not hear that the person committing the crimes went to such and such church? Most likely they didn't..."

Mother Nancy Lanza attended the Catholic church w/her son Adam.

The same church that was evacuated because of a bomb threat during last Sunday's Mass.

Plenty of murders and mayhem visited upon innocents by people who were pillars in their respective churches.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:38 PM

"VIDEO: NRA member cuts up card in 'tribute' to show 'outrage"


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 9:28 PM

litlmissme, sadly, the GOP has gutted mental health funding over the past decade. As a result, everyone pays; some, with their lives.

-- Posted by born-n-raised on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 7:22 PM


On the citizenship thing, no.

To compare the 2 is an overextension of an analogy.

Being a natural born citizen is something that cannot be denied. In no way does that present a direct and overwhelming threat to the general public. Heck, in my case, I am not even there lol.

However, easy availability of weapons and ammunition that are directly responsible for the deaths of so many, many people in even just the last year alone, may be a threat to the general public.

As to changing the Constitution, that is unnecessary. The High Court has placed limits on many other Amendments -- including the 1st Amendment in which such things as sedition are not protected by the 1st Amendment because of the potential overwhelming threat to the general public such could cause. In addition, the High Court did say already that there are limits to the 2nd Amendment's application, though thus far they have been rather vague in that regard.

So let's test it. Lets ban all assault rifles and see what happens.

I say we put it to a vote mate, and let the chips lay where they will.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 6:40 PM

I fail to understand why out of this whole mess, the only thing being argued about is gun control! Why are people not insisting on a mental health reform? In each of these instances the media has repoted " had a history of mental problems". Why are there not more people insisting on stronger controls on games that premeditated several of the killing sprees? I am sure these killing games make kids think they could do it in reality!

Why do you not hear that the person committing the crimes went to such and such church? Most likely they didn't... could also be a cause, no fear of meeting your maker.

In summary, it ain't the gun's fault it's the nut behind it.

In reguard to those who think guns and ammo should be rounded up and turned over and only the law enforcement officials should pocess them. Really? Criminals will still have them.

How many lives are lost each day because people get in a car and drive, in following your logic all cars should be parked right? By those same standards many other things should be banned as well.

It would be interesting to know how many people who want to take guns away, or tax them to the point you can't afford to shoot them., own a weapon and enjoy target practice, hunting ect.

I think the majority that are saying gun control are opposed to weapons in the first place, and have seized this tragity as a sounding board to support a point of view that they already stood behind.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 5:49 PM

Here is another point I have not made and I have not seen anything about this in any news report.

If there was any kind of gun ban put in place it could cost a lot of people their jobs how many total I have no idea but Remington arms employes around 2500 I think.

I do know one it could is me a large portition of the business the comepany I work for does is gun related and my side job is 100% gun related

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 5:37 PM

News you make me laugh and everyone around me knows I need one this time of year as I am just a big ol scrooge.

So dude if you want to play with how well I can interpretwhat you post then so be it.

you said individual's well I hope you do understand I am an individual so I thought I did answer you question and frankly I still do.

In the simplest terms, is there a limitation to the right to own a firearm?

My answer to this one is yes gun ownership is regulated.

And if you bother to read my other post you would know that I do think the regs need some work.

How many times to I need to answer this?

Or is it unlimited?

See my above amswer

Now for the rest of your questions

Does the majority have the right to limit what guns one can own and what one can do with those guns when the exercise of that right by the minority is a direct and immediate threat to the general public?

If it ever came to a vote I would say yes they do.

But before it would ever come to a vote In my opinion I would say the constitution would have to be changed, but who the hell am I but just a hard working tax paying American that still lives in tyhis great country!

Now for my follow up questions and you will see it is much like yours.

Does the majority have the right to say if a person moves out of this country and gets citizenship in another country that personu must give up their american citizenship?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 5:13 PM

I know I am not American and some people will resent that, but the shocking events at Newtown have horrified many around the world and here in Australia, the debate about guns in the US is all over our media too. In 1996, Martin Bryant killed 35 people and injured 21 at Port Arthur in Tasmania, it is considered one of the worst mass shootings ever. John Howard our conservative Prime Minister(equivalent of a Republican) at the time resisted the pressure of the gun lobby and changed our gun laws. He implemented a buy back scheme where gun owners could surrender their now 'illegal' guns and be paid for them by the tax payer. If you want a gun, you must be licensed, assault weapons are severely restricted and your guns must be securely locked up when not in use. These regulations were welcomed by the overwhelming majority of people here and gun owners still go hunting and target shooting with minimal fuss. It was one of the best achievements of the Howard government and yes he was definitely a conservative. Since this time we have had no mass shootings and that is the point. Sure there are still crimes involving guns, there are still 'bad people with guns', there are still people with mental illnesses, but our schools so far are safe and without armed guards. It is possible to have a society where gun owners can use their guns for sport but where people can go about their everyday activities without thinking they are going to be shot and if it does happen, it is a rare event. I consider the US my second home and it breaks my heart to see kids killed in this manner. Surely a compromise can exist where all people can feel safe.

-- Posted by aussie wife on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 4:38 PM

And of course my follow up question:

Does the majority have the right to limit what guns one can own and what one can do with those guns when the exercise of that right by the minority is a direct and immediate threat to the general public?

And if so, then why can't we outlaw types of weapons We the People deem to be a direct and overwhelming threat to the health and welfare of the general public?

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 4:21 PM


I didn't ask you if you thought your right to own a firearm is a threat to the general public -- not even close mate.

These are the questions I asked:

What happens when the individual's right to own a firearm directly threatens the health and well being of the general public?

Can we also shout "Fire" in a crowded theater? Are all civil rights unlimited?

Or do we draw a line when the exercise of that right by the individual becomes a direct, and immanent threat to the rest of the community/country?

In the simplest terms, is there a limitation to the right to own a firearm?

Or is it unlimited?

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 4:17 PM

Nana like I said in my post I am split on guns in schools and I for sure don't know how I would feel if one of my kids was shot, and if I was a teacher and shot a child while trying to protect others I am sure I would be devastated, if I had shot the shooter also I am sure I would still be devastated about the child I had killed.

Would I be glad I had a gun and was able to do something that saved others I think I would.

News I do not think my individual right to own a

firearm directly threatens the health and well being of anyone sorry.

We all know our civil rights are not unlimited because we draw the lines somewhere

News if you bothered to read my post to Nana

it said

"Nana guns are regulated but yes I also think they need some work, most gun owners that I know would not have a problem on better background checks along with a wait while it's being done."

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 3:54 PM

Regarding the NRA response:

Militarizing our schools is not a solution.

Will we also be stationing an armed policeman in every movie theater?

Will we also be stationing an armed policeman in every church, temple, and mosque?

Will we be stationing armed policemen in our workplaces?

Will we be stationing armed policemen in every mall?

The NRA suggestion fails to address the many, many other mass shootings we had this year at all or in any form.

Its time we get serious about gun control...or get used to our children being shot in schools, malls, theaters, restaurants, the work places, and every other public and private place.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 3:36 PM


I am reposting the question I asked you earlier which you have not answered and seem to be ignoring.

I know how much you insist others answer your questions and I just know you want to be fair and address the questions to you.


What happens when the individual's right to own a firearm directly threatens the health and well being of the general public?

Can we also shout "Fire" in a crowded theater? Are all civil rights unlimited? Or do we draw a line when the exercise of that right by the individual becomes a direct, and immanent threat to the rest of the community/country?

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 3:22 PM

I am retired from the U.S. Army and I also work for Marshall public schools

-- Posted by mofireman on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 3:12 PM

Do we have any current law enforcement reserve officers, any former police officers, any veterans or retired military working in any capacity in any of Saline County's schools? Interesting thought.

-- Posted by former editor on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 2:47 PM

Ok you all lets play what if.

Lets say local to you a shooter is in a school and you have kids in said school would you rather have someone that works there or many someones that work there in that school with a gun ready to protect the kids in that school even.

Yes he/she could miss and hit a child but he could also take out the shooter.

You know they could maybe have saved more than one child by taking out the shooter.

Lets see

shooter at school kills 20 kids and 6 adults.

Shooter at school kills 5 kids and 2 adults and was killed by a teacher with a gun they had been trained to use, unfortunately said teacher missed 2 times trying to get a shot at the shooter and hit and killed 2 more kids.

As a father and grandfather is not sure what I think, part of me thinks it would be worth the risk but the part of me that says the 2 kids hit by the teacher could be my grandkids says I just don't know.

How about you all.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:20 PM

The Genie is out of the bottle.....and he's packin'!

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:03 PM

Well, the NRA has spoken. Finally, our long, national nightmare is over. They suggest aremed security at every school and then have the nerve to say: "I call on Congress today to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every single school in this nation,"

Guess what they want US to pay for it! How 'bout the NRA chip in a little bit? Maybe they should have some skin in the game? How about we tax guns ammo and related items 1000,2000,3000 percent to pay for this extra security. The NRA's solution is, "We have created a monster, now we have to create a bigger, better armed monster to deal with it and we'll get the American taxpayer to foot the bill. Typical. Let's just bring our troops home and put them at the schools. It's probably cheaper and safer in the long run.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 11:32 AM

G66 I think that the article covered a lot of ground, and would be of general interest to all of us who have posted on the subject.

I think that I have stated the things that disturb me about the issue we are discussing (as opposed to the article) in my other recent comments. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 10:53 AM

Master's Degrees, extensive training....hmmm, doesn't sound like a crowd likely to panic or over react. Also, there are no "misses" unless there is already someone shooting who is purposely "targeting" the children in the first place, so your argument does not really hold water. That is like asking someone if you are going to be killed would you rather it be on purpose or by accident?

-- Posted by OMG! on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 9:04 AM

okr what disturbed you so much in the artical about Bushmaster?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 8:26 AM


This needs to be the model our nation's school security is built around.

-- Posted by OMG! on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 7:29 AM

The lowdown on the BushMaster rifle. All you need to know, and more than those on the right who post here have told us about it. http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.co...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 21, 2012, at 12:26 AM

Here is thought provoking comment on guns and American culture by Frank Rich.

Don't run away from this link you folks on the right. It contains some stuff that will get your attention. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/201...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 11:50 PM


What happens when the individual's right to own a firearm directly threatens the health and well being of the general public?

Can we also shout "Fire" in a crowded theater? Are all civil rights unlimited? Or do we draw a line when the exercise of that right by the individual becomes a direct, and immanent threat to the rest of the community/country?

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 6:50 PM

NanaDot I think you may have ment Top Fuel dragsters.

Not sure I like the idea of guns in schools unless the person with the gun is very well trained, and then still not sure.

Nana guns are regulated but yes I also think they need some work, most gun owners that I know would not have a problem on better background checks along with a wait while it's being done.

Most keep their guns safe, the problem if someone really wants someones guns they could get them gun safe or not.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 6:08 PM

Smokin' Cheetah

Can we ban the personal ownership of a nuclear arms?

If so, tell me where is the line and why that line?

BTW, Justice Scalia, in his Majority opinion, has stated explicitly that such a line does exist, but he was not to clear on where or why.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 5:13 PM

Smokin' Cheetah

I guess you missed the most recent Supreme Court decisions.

Basically, their ruling was that the 2nd Amendment only gives us the right to own a gun.

They also made clear in the Majority decisions that the Federal Government and the State Governments can regulate what the individual do with that firearm.

This is not a Constitutional issue.

It is a regulation issue -- one that is clearly within the scope of the Government's authority, (see S. Court Majority opinions below).

So We the People do have the right to say what anyone can and can't do with the weapon they own. We can force them to lock it up tight at home and hold the owner criminally responsible for anything that happens with his gun. We can get rid of gun permits except in special cases. We can do a whole lot of regulating and We the Majority can make it almost impossible to do anything with that weapon that We the People don't want to happen.

District of Columbia v. Heller


McDonald v. Chicago


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 5:09 PM

Perhaps this is a part of the problem.

"Tea party group auctioning off assault rifle in spite of Newtown massacre"


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 3:50 PM


My kids are grown men. They make their own decisions. I am available to them at any time if they require my advice or assistance.

As to your question, yes I think banning such weapons is a good first step toward solving the problem.

However, I believe that many Americans still live in the same conservative bubble they lived in when they lost the Presidential election recently. Its a mindset problem really.

You can choose to have a country where the children and the schools are relatively safe.

Its all up to you and others -- people who may be directly impacted by the next attack -- to reexamine the "guns for all" approach and begin asking yourselves the very question you asked me.

An objective approach may very well lead even you to the answer -- yes, it will most likely reduce or eliminate the attacks on the children and the schools.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:57 PM

News here you go using what you seem to hate someone going to a personal attack when they have no other answer.

SO you don't care then what happens to you family that lives here.....

You did not answer my question so I will ask it again and make sure you read the lasy 9 words!

Do you really think a ban on AR15's and the like will stop this?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:40 PM


1) Your "bias" statement is meaningless. Frankly, I don't even think you can define the word, much less explain your use of it in this context.

2.) My family can do what ever they want. The last I heard none of them owned any firearms. What they do is their thing.

3.) Yes, I believe that getting the firearms out of the system will lead to reduced attacks and may eliminate them altogether.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:24 PM

News I will ask you the same question do you really think a ban on AR15's and the like will stop this?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:16 PM

News it was bias in the fact that unless Scarpetta gets lucky there's not a chance of winning looks biased to me.

News I wonder how your family that is here in the good ol USA would like this statement you made? "I personally don't care if every man woman and child in America shoots each other or themselves. That's an American thing."

You know news I am sure glad people have the right to move out of this country!

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:15 PM

And gal, remember it was guns that solved the problem between the Hatfield's and McCoys...right?

Oh wait, no, it was hillbillies and guns that caused that problem in the first place.

It was love that ended that long-running feud.

We have tried the conservative "cling to your guns" approach. It got a bunch of kids killed. That is not a solution.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:05 PM


You say,

"News you can bring up all the biased comparisons you want, if someone was going to use a knife to attack people he or she would not be 50 meters away."

1.) Please explain what you refer to as "bias."

2.) Exactly, in order to use most non-firearm weapons you must get in very close. There in lies the difficulty.

I personally don't care if every man woman and child in America shoots each other or themselves. That's an American thing.

In my other country, we have very strict gun control and very few of the problems gun crazy Americans have.

BTW, the rest of the World thinks America is crazy when it comes to firearms.

When are you folks going to get a clue?

How many more innocent people have to die before you do something about the problem?

Or just learn to live with it. At least you will still have your guns, although just a routine trip to the store will most likely require a wild-West type shoot out. But what the heck, its what you choose.


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 2:00 PM

WTF I am not saying we should not do something what that is I do not know.

But in my opinion it's not to ban guns.

For what it's worth I did not ever have a problem when the law was you had to wait 7 days to get a hand gun and most people I know did not either.

I don't have a problem with a ban on high capacity magazines.

My self I think the problem is more on the mental health side than the gun side.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 12:56 PM

Gal 66,

I guess you're right. We should do absolutely nothing, after all.....it's what we do best.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 12:36 PM

I think maybe High School Basketball Ref's should start packin heat.

-- Posted by Marshall Man on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 12:01 PM

WTF and NanaDot do you really think a ban on AR15's and the like will stop this?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 11:53 AM

Just like most of the time you missed the point of a post that differnt from your point of view.

I will try to help you understand what I was saying if we just stand by and let a ban be put in place for one type of rifle how long until another ban is in place!

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 11:49 AM

First of all let me say I am no longer a member of the NRA as it would be hypocritical because I want to see the big money taken out of politics!

NanaDot unlike you I will tell the whole story.

Tiahrt is the author of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation. Additionally, any data so released is inadmissible in a civil lawsuit.[5] Some groups, including the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, believe that having further access to the ATF database would help municipal police departments track down sellers of illegal guns and curb crime. These groups are trying to undo the Tiahrt Amendment.[6]

Conversely, the Tiahrt Amendment is supported by the Fraternal Order of Police, as it allows municipal police departments full access to ATF trace data in any criminal investigation.

Key FY 2010 Improvements to the Tiahrt Amendments

Full Police Access to Crime Gun Trace Data:

The FY 2010 budget removes the restriction that limits access to federal crime gun trace data to state and local police investigations of individual crimes. That restriction prevents them from investigating the broader criminal networks that may be behind those crimes. The new language enables state and local law enforcement to have full access to ATF's gun trace database to analyze gun trafficking patterns.

Prior to this change, state and local law enforcement could only access crime gun trace data in connection with an individual investigation.

More info here


-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 11:44 AM


You tell me. I keep hearing over an over again the these aren't really assualt rifles because they can only fire as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger as opposed to fully automatic.

I still contend that is a weak arugement that would make no difference If you were the one being shot at.

Here's your quote: "WTF first off lets call the guns your talking about what they really are they are semi-automatic rifles they are not assualt rifles!

Assualt rifles have a selector switch that lets them fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger."

You say that like it makes a difference.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 11:26 AM

WTF the problem with your answer to my post is why it does make difference.

Ok so the goverment bans the rifles your talking about, then someone uses a so called semi-auto hunting rifle to walk into a public place and kill people then you and like minded people are going to go after them ect. ect.!

Where does it stop?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 10:51 AM

What she said...

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 10:42 AM

Gal 66,

If you were being shot at by one would it really make a difference to you if it's semi-auto or fully auto? Fact is you probably wouldn't have time to make that distinction because you would be dead. Game over.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 9:22 AM

WTF first off lets call the guns your talking about what they really are they are semi-automatic rifles they are not assualt rifles!

Assualt rifles have a selector switch that lets them fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.

The rifles you are talking about are used by a most of us for target shooting and coyote hunting in fact I am building one right now in 6.5 grendel for long range competition shooting.

NanaDot we have had the right to have guns longer than that!

News you can bring up all the biased comparisons you want, if someone was going to use a knife to attack people he or she would not be 50 meters away.

I doubt you could hit the moving target at 50 meters either unless of course you have been shooting a lot this year!

Me I have put more that 5000 rounds down range this year!

For any of you all out there that want to test Scarpetta I would not do it I have see how well Scarpetta shoots and you just may run into a real nice semi-auto rifle............

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Dec 20, 2012, at 7:52 AM

We don't have to ignore the 2nd ammendment. We can allow folks to buy and own these guns, let's just tax them, the extended magazines and bullets 1000 percent. Let's hit folks in the pocket book and leave the law in tact. Use the monies raised for more extensive background checks and legal enforcemet of the laws we have now. NO MORE GUNSHOW LOOPHOLES!

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 5:17 PM

I hear a lot of different comparisons of things that can kill other than an assualt rifle and they are true, however, how many of those "other" items are conceived,designed and built specifically to kill in a wholesale manner? That's right, only the assualt rifle. If we insist these guns are to be legally available, we owe it to those children to make it a little more diffcult than going to Wal-Mart.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 5:03 PM

I want to hear bout fans charging onto court at M.H.S B-Ball game last night. Did this happen as I heard? Did they charge at Refs and other team bench in threating manner? Was school rent a cop on duty, if so what happened. This could get people hurt. Maybe the one's charging the court.

-- Posted by Marshall Man on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 3:47 PM


Hey mate, let's put your theory to the test.

Let's set up a moving target 50 meters away.

First we see if you can throw a Bowie Knife from that distance and hit the bullseye -- or even come anywhere near the target (I bet you won't even come close).

Then we see if I can put a bullet in that target from the same distance with a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle .

I bet your knife won't come anyplace close to the target. I also bet my bullet will not only hit the target but will likely be quite close to that bullseye.

Guns can kill accurately from a long distance. Knives can't. Not all weapons are equal.

'nuff said!

Its time we stop listening to the folks who keep getting out kids killed and start seriously regulating firearms...or we will be going through this pain again, real soon.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 1:03 PM

Thoughts and prayers go out to Alex Maupin. To see such a great young man injured in such horrific fashion is something you never want to witness, and you wish it was something that could have been avoided.

Lost in such tragedy was the ridiculous actions by fans, officials, players, and coaches. As adults, a better precedent must be taught. Last night, it wasn't.

Alex, we wish you all the best and are very hopeful for a speedy recovery. You have always been a joy to watch, a player to model, and a great leader.

-- Posted by huh? on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 9:55 AM

Jason the problem isn't guns, it's people. Bad people are gonna do bad things with any item they can get their hands on regardless of the laws. It's illegal to kill...yet it stops no one. Saying guns are responsible is like says spoons make people fat. Get real.

Besides Mr. Obama and others in DC rely on guns to keep them safe. Tell the Secret Service to go home Mr. Obama those guns they carry might hurt someone. It's ok tho because Mr. Obama's family deserves to be protected while the people paying for protection are left to just call for help.

Um no, some PERSON comes in my house...he's gonna be looking down the barrel of my gun. Someone else can just call for help and sit and wait, be sure to tell the intruder to hold on till help arrives.

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 8:19 AM

I hate being a realist but any gun control bill would not take the guns off the street because all guns sold before the bill is passed would be grandfathered in it would not take the guns off the street.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 7:17 AM

Eric, Shouldn't Community Alerts like the Severe weather Advisory be free to view on here?

-- Posted by Selmac8 on Wed, Dec 19, 2012, at 4:29 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Yes. The story should be available. Fixed. The alert on the front page is, of course, already available to all.

Yep InTheMiddle Marshall ought to have a memorial to Blue Dog instead of Jim. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 PM

Its hard to respect someone who won't meet their civil obligations and vote.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 10:17 PM

Marshall does not vote 90% Republican. Look at how many Democrats ran unopposed. Finally there are opposing political voices for good debate here in Marshall, but it is still a mostly Democratic town. We are however a "conservative" group. It is why Nationally Democrats oppose the Death penalty, but at the state/local level, Democrats do not officially oppose it.

There will never be a 100% safe system. That is how life is. We can make it "safer" but never 100% safe.

Will the new healthcare bill address mental health? Part of the problem is beyond money. Back in the 50s and 60s, as result of abuses, we made it much more difficult to place people into mental health facilities, let alone even declare people mentally ill. Why are so many mentally ill among the homeless population? Because, in most cases it is almost impossible to force them to force them into hospitals/institutions.

Finally, I spoke to my father, the nearly 8-year old life-long Democrat. He said he "didn't vote."

-- Posted by inthemiddle on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 6:57 PM

Well said IT. I have been reflecting on how our culture fosters these calamities, and will likely write something about it. If so I will post it on the political blog. I can almost hear multiple sighs of relief at that. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 6:04 PM


It is unlawful to carry a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon capable of lethal use into any school, onto school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board. This prohibition does not apply to those with a concealed carry endorsement on the Missouri driver's or non-driver's license with permission of school officials or a firearm otherwise lawfully possessed by an adult for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm related event. THIS IS THE MISSOURI LAW, OUR SCHOOL BOARD CAN APPROVE THIS FOR OUR SCHOOLS

-- Posted by mofireman on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 5:58 PM

"Discovery Channel kicks Ted Nugent to the curb"


...and rightly so.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 5:38 PM

Maybe Nana,

This is one of those topics that is both political and sociologic and it will probably take politics to solve the greater portion of the problem.

Those that want more control don't seem to mind government intrusion; even though the government has been largely ineffective.

Those that want to maintain the status quo seem devoid of ideas on how to stop this from happening on a social level.

Religion, and the lack thereof, may be one source of the freaks out there killing people. Mental health issues are as well, in most cases of mass murder.

Other issues are economic and lack of proper upbringing.

There are so many fires to put out, it is no wonder that people are using large hoses with the water turned on at full volume with people still missing all of the targets.

Whether we like it or not, the short term solution appears to lie with the government. The people are not going to be able to get everything they want collectively; and I agree with some, unless there is a better moral compass (not necessarily religious), there will be an ever escalating risk of this sort of activity.

I don't even know where to begin on media violence and accesibility of material on the web. Technology and all that goes with it is here to stay.

Just some random thoughts, but any issue like this is so complex that there needs to be a band-aid applied, follow by a definitive diagnosis, comprehension of the problems involved, then appropriate long term intervention.

It's going to take a long time and we will all suffer until a new equilibrium is established.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 2:55 PM

The Conservative spewed out many facts regarding assault rifles, such as:

"Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes."


"Less than four percent of all homicides in the United States involve any type of rifle. No more than .8% of homicides are perpetrated with rifles using military calibers."

I'm not going to argue those facts, because I'm not going to take the time to look them up. What your facts and statistics do NOT address is the topic of this whole conversation: How many perpetrators of these mass shootings used assault rifles in their massacres?? I imagine you are right that assault rifles account for a small percentage of crimes overall, but let's look at the weapons of choice for Newtown, Columbine, Arizona, the movie theater, the mall, the muslims, etc. etc. etc.

In my personal opinion, the average citizen has no use for an assault rifle. What's the point, afterall? Hunting? I'm no hunter, but is it safe to say that a deer can be killed just as easily with one well-aimed bullet as with 30 bullets?

I'm no politician, and don't envy those in office the decisions that must be made in the near future. But I believe the only way to make any headway in protecting the future of our country, our citizens and most importantly our children is to take the 'liberal/conservative' and the 'democrat/republican' out of the picture alltogether, and start thinking like one human race!!! (JMHO)

-- Posted by k_m on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 2:03 PM

Well "The Conservative" you have been presented with facts, are you going to come back, and address them with constructive dialogue? By the way you did not present a link to the source of the "facts" you presented. Would you mind sharing your sources?

We are waiting.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 12:47 PM

Why aren't Senators Graham and McCain demanding this latest shooting be labeled "Terrorism?" Is this not the very definition of Terrorism? We can't take shamppo on an airplane but we can buy assuault rifles at Wal-Mart. That is the culture we have created folks. Does anyone know if Vegas is taking odds on the when and where of the next one?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 12:38 PM

After reading the last few posts, I realize why nothing's getting done here, and in Congress.

People are so interested in making their point, that when someone disagrees, it becomes personal.

This is a real problem, needing real solutions and we all need to work together, realizing that there must be disagreement, followed by compromise.

I like Nana's attention to detail and lack of knee jerking. I like OMG's short term solutions and I love OK's passion.

Put your heads together, you guys. You'll likely come up with a decent solution.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 8:45 AM

Also, maybe if your generation had insisted the districts take ACTION after those tragedies you mentioned, I would not have to be here today having this argument with you and maybe there would be 28 people in Conneticut who would still be with us this Christmas.

-- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 7:49 AM

No, I am a better parent because I refuse to stand by and let people like you bully me into failing to see that my children are protected each day as they leave my home to learn.

I don't want MORE guns, I just want the guns we already have to be put to use defending our children at school.

Norway only proves one thing, when the only people who have guns are the criminals, it is the innocent people who die.

-- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 7:46 AM

..and then there is body armor.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 5:44 AM

Also, this shooter STOLE his guns from a MURDER SCENE. Not a legal way to come by a firearm last time I checked.

-- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 5:09 AM

Here is a FACT for you. I nearly cried when I dropped my babies off to school yesterday knowing they were woefully vulnerable. FACT is, I have to do it again today.

I believe the Sheriff's Association just had a class graduate last week. Why don't we employ them to man the doors instead of substitute teachers? They are weapons qualified. Or find our some of our community's plentiful veterans for the job?

-- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 5:07 AM

Yeah I enjoyed all the stats.

Here is an interesting question, how many of these insano type mass murders have we had this year?

How about the last 2 years?

...or 5 years?

I ask because it seems to me this is at least 3 or 4 of these incidents so far this year.

That sure seems like a lot and didn't all the murderers legally purchase their weapons of choice -- you know the one that shoots lots of bullets and can kill quickly and effectively equally well from a distance and up close? You know unlike a knife?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 12:11 AM

Like in the forest gump movie. You can't fix stupid.

Another quote, "There is no use arguing with a fools. He only rages and scoffs, and tempers flare".

I done with tirades of the emotional arguement without any facts.

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 11:30 PM

There are those out there that like to debate or argue by emotions instead of facts. I will stick with the facts.

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 11:21 PM

They wave the flag, and wrap themselves up in it.

If it didn't come from Rush they remain agin' it.

Their thoughts on gun violence remain second rate.

They think the only way to stop it is to escalate.

Why is it their only response when kids get shot,

more guns more guns, is it the best they've got?


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 11:02 PM

Agreed! I should not have stooped to your level by blaming something instead of someone for killing people. I do apologize.

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:58 PM

Almost Critical,

Of all those items you listed, how many were conceived, designed, manufactured and sold for the specific purpose of killing? That's right, Only one. That's the most foolish arguement I have ever heard and we should be ashamed of ourselves.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:41 PM

"We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation's recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence," said the unreleased NIJ report, written by Christopher Koper, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

"It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban's impact on gun violence. Should it be renewed, the ban's effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement," said the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Times.

The report also noted that assault weapons were "rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban."

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004...

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:41 PM

There is no correlation between regulation and crime reduction. Looking at the continued decade by decade drop in violent crime, the surge in sales, the millions of MSR's which are currently lawfully owned, and the ever dropping miniscule % of them used in crime it's pretty easy to conclude that there is no real issue in the United States with these rifles in regard to crime. Therefore a ban of any kind is by default needless legislation looking to solve a problem that simply does not exist.

Bottom line, the numbers don't lie, the gun grabbers do, and that is the truth.

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:35 PM

Assault weapons are not the weapons of choice among drug dealers, gang members or criminals in general. Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes. Military-style semi-automatic firearms (so-called assault weapons) do not differ materially from non-military style semi-automatic firearms (one bullet is fired for each pull of the trigger) and are no more powerful than other semi-automatic weapons. Further, a bullet fired from a semi-automatic weapon is no more powerful than one of the same caliber fired from a corresponding non-semi-automatic handgun, rifle, or shotgun. In fact most assault weapons are less powerful than hunting rifles. A genuine assault weapon, as opposed to a legal definition, is a hand-held, selective fire weapon, which means it's capable of firing in either an automatic or a semiautomatic mode depending on the position of a selector switch. These kinds of weapons are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and are further regulated in some states. National statistics. Less than four percent of all homicides in the United States involve any type of rifle. No more than .8% of homicides are perpetrated with rifles using military calibers. The Clinton Ban was a failure. In 1994 President Clinton initiated a Federal Assault Weapon Ban that lasted a decade, sunsetting in 2004. Since the sunset of the Clinton ban rifle related homicides, along with all other homicides have dropped, in the year 2000 the center point of the AWB ban, rifle deaths in the U.S. were 14.4% higher than they were in 2009.

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:34 PM

Sure, tax bullets. They kill people. While your at it raise taxes on knives, ropes, medications, gasonline, trees, plastic bags, duct tape, chains, lawn mowers, water. I hope you get my point. You can kill with about anything and everything I listed has been involved in a murder/homicide in the last ten years. (look it up) What it all boils down to is culture and the fact that the kids who attend public schools no longer have the "fear of God" because we dont want to offend a non-believer. Well, I know to this day that although I may have my vices, not one of them would harm another person because I was taught at an early age to fear the power of God. And to shut you up about fearing God, its not a scared fear its a fear of doing things that God himself would not like and would keep me from his ultimate gift, Heaven. Treat everyone as you wish to be treated.

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:30 PM

The most important aspect of being a responsible gun owner is to be repsonsible for your own guns. Cigarettes are dangerous so they taxed the daylights out of them. What say we do the same for bullets?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 9:43 PM

Oklahoma reader The only assault rifles are fully automatic owned and operated by the military, and a few that have ATF tax stamps for them. First they will ban what you call assault rifles. when that don't work they will ban all semi's. when that dont work they will go after shotguns. WOW where will it stop. Crazy people will do it again and again. You can't stop it. Soon only criminals will have guns. A great man once said (Benjamin Franklin) "Those who would give up Essential Liberty

to purchase a little Temporary Safety,

deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Pretty soon you will have no liberty left to give for your safety.

-- Posted by The Conservative on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 8:36 PM

I have a great idea! We have right here in our community Missouri Valley College. They have a criminal justice department. The students who need community service hours could volunteer to man the door at the public schools. It could become a great intership opportunity. Oh coarse, they would have to be weapons qualified.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 8:34 PM

There are many who are advocating putting guns in the hands of our teachers to defend our children against the disturbed monsters who are killing them.

Their job is to teach our children, that is what they are trained to do, that is their passion, and that is all we should expect from them.

Somewhere along the way we lost our understanding of that principle. We now expect them to feed our children, to teach them right from wrong, to baby sit them, to provide psychiatric care, in fact to do almost everything that is actually the role of the parent. We are shameless in our abdication of our responsibilities to our children.

Now once again we throw up our hands, and say let the teachers do it. Shame on all of us. We as a group must figure out how to put a stop to this madness. We can not once again drop the ball, cling to our guns, fail to support public, and private mental illness facilities, and say oh well let the teachers do it.

It is our moral failure, not that of the too often blamed teachers that things are so hideous. For once leave the teachers out of it, and shoulder the burden ourselves. There are tough choices to be made. This time stand up, and be counted, don't just push it off on someone else.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 7:34 PM

Is it true that Sedalia Public Schools has hired armed off duty Police to protect their schools in response to this and Marshall Public Schools has hired unarmed subsitute teachers for the same job? I heard this today and wonder how I can find out.

-- Posted by OMG! on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 7:03 PM

We absolutely NEED to take every measure possible to stop the slaughter of children, and others; which prompts the question, does anyone really NEED an assault rifle?

At what point does that become a a selfish indulgence? If it would help save children's lives how many of you would be willing to give up your assault rifles? Are you absolutely certain that the proliferation of assault rifles has nothing to do with the ever increasing mass murders?

Just some points to ponder.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 4:06 PM


Removing assault rifles from the general public would not fix the entire problem we are facing here.

In each case over the past few years, not all used assault rifles. Recently a man in Asia used a knife to kill children in a school. There are several key facts, all had mental defects, knowmn to others prior to the carnage, most had been avid gamers, playing killing games.

These three things as a combination become deadly. This is where the concentration must begin.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 3:58 PM

"Off-duty cop prevents mass shooting in San Antonio"



-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 2:12 PM


Have you considered how much safer schools in general would be if there was just 1 or 2, trained, authorized safety officer in possession of a nuclear warhead in order to provide much needed firepower in case of an attack on the schools?

Sure we could ban personal possession of nuclear warheads...leaving Americans vulnerable to the bad guys. What kind of society would we have then?

Perhaps you should consider that if we take away nuclear warheads away from law abiding citizens then only the bad guys will have nuclear warheads.

Having a few nuclear warhead armed guards at every school would clearly make the schools much safer for our children as well as provide a additional firepower in case of a nuclear war.

Its a win/win situation.

Arming school guards and personnel with nuclear warheads just makes good sense mate.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 1:22 PM

Oklahoma Reader -

Appreciate your posting the link to a mother with a potentially dangerous son talking about mental health issues:


I'd read it previously and believe acknowledging mental health system failures crucial to making a sane difference in safety. When I was in first grade, a playmate and I barely escaped a mentally ill person with a corn knife who sneaked up and announced an intention to kill, brandishing the "American machete." The attacker with the scary weapon was widely known to be deranged, but the mental health system failed years ago, fails miserably now.

-- Posted by former editor on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 12:04 PM

Don't pay any attention to what I say about the killings that are becoming rampant in our nation, after all I am an avowed liberal, and thus hold opinions that are null, and void in the minds of half the folks who read them.

Do pay attention to the opinion of Joe Scarborough, avowed conservative, life long Republican, he states the truth better than I ever could regarding this latest tragedy, the ones that preceded it, and those that are undoubtably yet to come.

Please listen to what he says at the following link. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/ns/m...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 11:22 AM


ASSAULT: (verb) make a physical attack on, (noun) a physical attack.

RIFLE: a gun especially one fired from shoulder level.

It is our national insanity that we refuse to understand that clear, and simple definition. Why can't we understand the clear meaning of those two words used together? Why the disconnect?

(This is not satire)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 10:10 AM

I am not surprised at all by your response OMG. You, and a few others repeatedly miss the point. God forbid that we even consider getting rid of assault rifles as a part of the equation, even though over, and over again they, in the hands of insane young men, slaughter innocents.

Assault rifles have no practical, nor necessary use in our society. They are designed to kill people. They should all be confiscated, melted down, and made into a monument honoring all those killed, and wounded by them. What a huge monument that would be.

The guilt extends beyond the mad men who pull the trigger. In the instant case it extends to his mother who got some sort of thrill from ejaculating bullets from her assault rifle. Was she oblivious to the problems her son exhibited? I think not. She paid the ultimate price for her judgemental error, just as many innocents continue to pay the ultimate price for our society's judgmental error. Happiness is not a warm gun!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 9:47 AM

Until a better solution can be managed, I am OK with having a trained person at each school with quick access to a firearm.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 8:59 AM

There you go again, responding with SATIRE rather than SOLUTIONS or heaven forbid FACTS...

To be clear, I have never said to arm EVERYONE, even hinted at arming children or claim to be a Lady Eastwood.

I do not see how having one or two trained staff members at each school having access to a firearm can be seen as shallow, irrational, or ineffectual.

But by all means, keep making fun. Maybe it will draw attention away from the deadly serious consequences of failing to do anything.

-- Posted by OMG! on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 7:38 AM

Oklahoma Reader


The school protection system you have designed would do as a good first step in the right direction, however it could use some technical improvements as well, and, if necessary, armed police units stationed at the schools full-time.

Oh wait...did you say "SATIRE"?

Never mind...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 2:19 AM

This may be a good time for the school board to reconvene regarding the new schools problem, and consider a third alternative.

What about building an underground school? It should have only one main entrance with a long corridor within the exterior doors that is banked with metal detectors. The actual school entrance doors (bullet and impact proof) would not open if the metal detectors were set off. An over ride on the lock down would facilitate entry into the actual premises once the cause of the alarm was neutralized. A gun turret in the entry way ceiling would further enhance security. It could also be used to spray a paralyzing mist.

There should be other doors, for exit only, at convenient places on the perimeter. An electrical charge should be rigged that would activate if anyone tried to use the exit doors for entry.

If the mood of the community as a whole is the same as that generally expressed on this blog at the moment I think a bond issue would pass with no problem if that is what would be built.

However it needs to be done quickly because in general folks' memories are short.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 17, 2012, at 12:28 AM

Well OKR,

I don't know the solution mate, but I do know whatever that solution is it must guarantee 100% the safety of the children and the educators.

We absolutely must protect the children!!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 10:38 PM


Go ahead, make your day.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 10:32 PM

Overhauling the mental heath system would be a great start.

I don't think that is the complete answer either.

It is a start!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:56 PM

At the following link is a good example of this heartbreaking situation, and the right questions in response to the quandry. Perhaps if enough folks understand the questions we can find appropriate answers.

Gun control is not the basic answer, nor is arming everyone. Both responses are shallow, and insufficient. Read the following link. I think that you may then agree. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:39 PM

If by packing a pistol to school saved one innocent child's life it would be well worth it!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 6:57 PM

News Flash! Dodge City 10:00am

Principal Rat Basterson fired psychology teacher Riot Burp this morning, which caused a heated argument. It is not known which drew first, but each emptied his weapon, a total of thirty rounds were discharged. The dead include the two involved,and six rotten little boys sitting in the outer office awaiting corporal punishment.

Pastor Spincaster who was quickly on the scene to pray stated that if he had been allowed in the school to pray yesterday, he wouldn't have needed to be there now to pray.

Ralph Neybob, local NRA Coordinator stated that the obvious answer to the problem is to provide all students with flak jackets, helmets, and little pistols to protect themselves. He added those six boys would have been alive today if they had been afforded the opportunity to return fire.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 6:24 PM

In my opinion it is sheer lunacy to believe that if everyone at risk started packing pistols; teachers, crossing guards, mall sales clerks, movie ushers, et al that the problem would be solved. How one gets to the conclusion that if we could all just open carry it would stop the massacres defies rational thinking.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 6:02 PM

Whoa there! How dare you proclaim to know WHO I worship? Normally, when you all revert to making things up (i.e. armed citizens do not deter crime), or ridiculous accusations (I worship guns, secretly wish to be a hero shooter, or that I glorify and think what happened is like a Hollywood movie) I roll my eyes and move on. It is pointless to argue with people like you because you dodge the facts, offer no real solutions and resort to belittling people who point out reality (especially when they have the gall to back it up with actual facts).

However, this time I will not shut up and let you have the last word. It is MY children who are going to be dropped off at school every morning, and MY children who are at risk. Bottom line is that until there is something more substantial protecting them than a locked (ahem..glass) door and an unarmed staff member with good intentions, I will not just go on my way and forget about it.

My posts here are not really for you anyway. I realize that you think we all live in a world where you can tax your way out of anything, that all people who receive mental health services get better, and that criminals are just victims too. Fact is the world we live in is nothing like that, but until you realize that for yourself there is nothing I can say to convince you.

In the real world the monsters hide behind human faces. When we leave our children in the morning without leaving their caretakers the ability to defend the most innocent among us against those monsters...we are failing our duty and responsibility as parents, educators and community.

We have to fix this, and this time I will not shut up and go away until we do.

-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 5:39 PM


The fact is this country has a sickness. It stigmatizes and slashes funds for mental health while simultaneously worshiping the almighty gun and turns the madmen into celebrites. Until that changes nothing else will.

Maybe someday you'll get to be the hero shooter. Either way somebody still gets to be dead.

I hope you'll tell us all about it because it will probably be nothing like what you expected.It won't be like Hollywood.

Dead is dead and that is precisely what guns were designed to do. Worship at the altar of the firearm America, but please don't aske me to be shocked, surprised or even somber when this happens again. If it hasn't already happened by the time I've finished writing this.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 1:54 PM

Oh and BTW armed citizenry DO stop incidents...



-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 12:56 PM

Yes, we have more guns than 5 armies. AT HOME, IN SAFES, or locked in the GLOVE BOX. My point is, if there was ONE gun on ONE hip that day belonging to a law abiding teacher or staff member who loved those kids enough to give their lives defending them (which several did) there may HAVE been friendly fire casualties or even god forbid a fatality. But, 28 dead??? Even Ray Charles couldn't be that bad a shot...

-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 12:53 PM

Also, there may have been trained marksmen and women there. This only proves my point and makes it more tragic since any one of them could have silenced this disgusting waste of breath if only they had had their weapon ON THEM.

-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 10:53 AM

Really, you are going to argue they were prepared? So prepared the principal gave her life "lunging at" the attacker with her bare hands, effectively using herself as a (tragically ineffective) human shield instead of being able to blow his face off? Come on now...

If the law prevents it, the law needs to change. NOW, not tomorrow.

-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 10:51 AM

Even though I am against the Affordable Healthcare act it is law and here to stay but it is not complete we need an Affordable Mental Healthcare act if we think all citizens should have access to physical healthcare the we should think that all citizens should have access to mental health care.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 9:37 AM

If more guns are the answer; let's just give every 'good' person 20 of 'em. That ought to do the trick.

Heck, give 'em 50!

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 9:35 AM

Also you could have school officials trained to use stun guns mace and other self defense techniques so that would another way to help secure our students.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 9:29 AM

I meant he broke into that school because they did have a keypad if they would of had bullet proof glass there would of been at least some time to get the police on the scene.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 9:25 AM

Honest people have CCW the evil get the guns illegally note the age of the shooter 20 note that he illegally transported those guns and he broke in to the house. The laws will not keep evil out so we need to do our best to protect our children and no amount of money should not be spared. Realistically we are not going to be able to ban all guns because it would take a lot to repeal the 2nd amendment so we should do easiest secure way to protect our kids.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 9:21 AM

CCW laws prohibit legally carrying firearms into schools. CCW holders must leave their guns in the car in the parking lot.

Additionally, the vast majority of successful folks in our society were educated in public schools.

In my opinion they do a fantastic job considering all the input recieved from school boards, education departments, and "concerned" parents and citizens.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 8:49 AM

I believe that more people should home school.

If you are working, try finding other home schoolers and see if people can share the load.

Won't work for everyone, but it already is for quite a few.

I've really never been a fan of the public schools, due to the 'cookie cutter' type classes and the overemphasis on athletics over book learning.

Not looking for a fight here, just stating my opinion and a potential solution.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:57 AM


I wholeheartedly agree!


I agree with you as well. No measure is too much, if it saves our prcious children's lives.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 7:53 AM

Surely there are staff at the schools who already have their CCW license. Get them some target practice and some secure holsters and let them carry! I will tell you it is going to be tough for me to drop my kids Monday, I would sure feel alot better if someone in each office and a couple of teachers at each school were ready and able to return fire should a nutjob try that here.

My biggest concern about the lockdown we had locally last year, and the publicity surrounding this recent tragedy is now everybody knows the plan. They know the kids are in the classroom somewhere hiding. My fear is that if this happens again, the shooter will not just move on looking for exposed victims...they will either shoot up every closet and cabinet door on their way through, or really search before giving up on a classroom.

-- Posted by OMG! on Sun, Dec 16, 2012, at 4:13 AM

I think we need a school security tax where all schools would have keypad entrances and those entry points would have close circuit tv to monitor those entrances and an intercom. I would then have bullet proof glass on all exterior windows and an arm security guard. Or to save money school personnel trained in armed security. If we want our kids safe no amount of money would be to much.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 10:32 PM

This is a sad time for the families who suffered losses and for every decent person out there.

I hope this song might help...even if just a little.


-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 3:00 AM

Thanks Eric for posting about the fallenangels I know of 3 families that will receive help because of your news story.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Dec 15, 2012, at 12:13 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Thank you!

Glad to do my bit, but I have to note that it's really the Guptas and their volunteers who should get credit for helping those families.

I raised my concerns with the school district after the last school shooting incident. This should be their wake up call we need metal detectors at our schools and we need at the minimum a security guard. All school offices should be near the nearest designated entrance. I worry about early childhood because their office is at the end of the hall and my son goes there.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 11:28 PM


I agree.

Here in Australia they did ban all knives and sharp instruments or tools -- except for those carried by tradesmen for their work.

Even a little pen-knife or almost any pointy object is prohibited in public. A person can use all the knives they want on the job or at home, but carrying a pocket knife here is the same as carrying a pistol which is also prohibited.

I think it a bit extreme to outlaw small pocket knives that are clearly designed to be to be used as a tool. After all, as any farmer can attest to, a pocket knife is a valuable tool to have and you never know when you will need it. It only becomes a weapon when its used unlawfully.

But apparently these Ozzies were busy slicing each other up some years ago and so they banned knives, or so Aussie Wife tells me.

But really, as my cousin explained to me after he served 2 years 1966 - 1968 in Vietnam -- and yeah he was a Marine, a person could be at risk of injury from almost anything at anytime. If a person has their mind up to murder, they will do it, if they can, no matter what weapon they decide on.

I wonder how this might have turned out if the administrators and teachers had been appropriately trained and armed with pistols for defense of themselves and especially for the defense of the children.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 6:09 PM

First and foremost my prayers go to anyone who was effected by the shootings today!

The second thing is the link below, should we also have "meaningful controls" on all knives sold as well?

It's not the gun it's the nut behind it.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 4:45 PM

Villager slashes 22 children with knife at elementary school gates. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/...

It's everywhere, it's everywhere!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 4:13 PM

The lid has been lifted on Pandora's box, and there will be no stopping of the continuing slaughter. There are somewhere around five to ten million assault rifles in civilian hands in the United States. There are over one million semiautomatic pistols manufactured every year, and that has been the case for a very long time.

There is not a chance that they will be removed from civilian ownership. There is very little chance that on a federal basis any meaningful controls will be put in place.

Our choices are get used to it, as we are used to lightning strikes, fatal auto accidents, and deaths by contaminated food, or develop a bunker mentality wherein we isolate ourselves, and our children from the reality of the era.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 3:12 PM

Thanks for the info!!

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 2:46 PM


If we would start teaching pacifism to children in grade school from an early age, they might not grow up to become murders.

I personally believe that a big part of the problem is the culture of violence, war, and killing that seems to permeate our society.

...just my 2 cents mate.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 1:49 PM

Twenty six killed, including eighteen kids at school shooting.

What is happening? Has this repeated madness become a part of our culture that will never end? What can we do to stop it? Very little I am afraid. Perhaps turn our schools, our malls, our theatres, our political rallies into defensive fortresses? Of course not. What have we wrought?


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 14, 2012, at 12:26 PM

Thanks Eric and OKR; Merry Christmas!!!!

-- Posted by k_m on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 1:07 PM

You may contact the Guptas at 314 570 7888, or call High Maintenance Hair Salon @ 660 886 3711. Bonations may be dropped off at High Maintenance 1910 S. Odell, the Gupta's residence 1654 W. Kay St., or toys only at Elmer Hare Ford 966 W. North St.

Hope that helps you, and Happy Holidays to you!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 12:51 PM


Can you provide contact information for the individuals in charge of the Fallen Angels project, so we can donate to them? I imagine it's in the article, but I don't have access to read it. Thanks.

-- Posted by k_m on Thu, Dec 13, 2012, at 12:22 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Sorry about that. I changed the status of the aricle. You should be able to see it now.

Scarpetta - Sorry, it's Power up for Self-Defense. The group's founder is Sarah Fuehring of Concordia. You might also contact the Sheriff's Department for more information.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 11:57 AM

Scarpetta: There have been several classes in the past. Check facebook for Power up for Women in Concordia.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 11:53 AM

Does Marshall ever have a "self-defense" class??

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Wed, Dec 12, 2012, at 11:12 AM

Thanks, OKR - but it seems I have less and less free time these days. One of these days, my retirement will be final; so far, I am following in the footsteps of my parents, who both worked into their 70s.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 7:59 PM


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 7:51 PM

Wish you were posting more often KF, on any or all the forums. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 7:13 PM



-- Posted by news across on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 3:32 PM

OKR, wasn't being critical of you. :)

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Dec 11, 2012, at 3:12 PM

Once elections are over, perhaps the "Politics" blog could be called "Government", which is what Congress should be focusing on. It's depressing to have talk turning to 2016 candidates a month after elections.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 11:08 PM

Kathy once a week I post a short comment on this blog about the forgotten war in Afghanistan. I will not stop unless I am forced to do so. Politics? No. Morality? Yes.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 11:04 AM

Kathy Fairchild,

Perhaps they only appear to be political comments.

In this day and age most folks seem to erroneously believe anything even indirectly related to governance is politics.

technology = politics, economics = politics, science = politics, religion = politics, parenting = politics, education = politics, health = politics, and of course, some topic-somebody-does-not-want-discussed = politics.

In a World where everything = politics, excluding politics becomes difficult at best.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 10:57 AM

It looks like the political comments have skipped over the line again into the main comments area.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Sun, Dec 9, 2012, at 10:44 AM

They are everywhere. Get used to it; drones are flying all over our country. Link includes map of locations. Big Brother has grown wings, and you can bet that they are not angel wings. http://www.commondreams.org/headline/201...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 8, 2012, at 8:37 PM

ND your last two links should be read by everyone who peruses this on line newspaper. Unfortunately those that need to the most are the least likely to do so.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 8, 2012, at 12:50 PM

"Dust that Sings"


-- Posted by news across on Sat, Dec 8, 2012, at 10:14 AM

On another topic AC,

You recently claimed that "Obamacare" is a good example of liberal legislation.

However, you are factually wrong.

The "Patient Affordable Care Act" was written by and the brain-child of Senator Max Baucus, a conservative Democrat (a Blue-dog Democrat) from Montana.

It lost the support of most liberals when the single-payer exclusion was eliminated.

We on the left support socialized medicine.

Call it whatever you want, "single-payer". "nationalized health care," or anything else, but its still socialized medicine. That is what we on the left support.

By the way, unlike you or your fellow cons, I actually live in a country with socialized medicine.

In Australia (and every other Western Democracy except the USA) and we love our socialized medicine!!!

I selected my doctor from the yellow pages, I have never waited longer than 10 minutes to see him, the longest it took me to see a specialist was 2 days from the day I called to make the appointment, I have never waited longer than that for surgery (in Australia), and I have never paid a single medical bill because there is no bill. When I see the doc here I just go in, see my doc, then I just wave by-by to the receptionist. Money is never discussed, there is no co-pay, no insurance premium to be paid, and my taxes here are just as low as they were on a similar income in the USA.

Socialized medicine sure didn't break our bank . We have the best economy in the World.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 2:46 PM

And where did that new consumption come from mate?

Lol, do you think you can put the cart before the horse and get anywhere?

Only the Federal Spending Multiplier has the strength to create the kind of consumption you need to pull an economy out of a deflationary economy.

So says the math.

So says the empirical evidence.

You can't start a fire without a spark, and you can't create jobs without consumption and you can't increase consumption without a mechanism capable of doing so.

Only consumption can create jobs.

Oh and by the way, it is that complex mate which is why it takes a minimum of 4 years to complete a Bachelor's degree in economics mate (it took me 4.5 years).

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 12:48 PM

More people working = more people with money = more consumption of goods = more goods being produced = more people needed to produce these goods = even more people with money = even more goods being consumed = even more goods being produced. I can keep going. Its really not that difficult. But a portion of that 47% really just dont want to work.

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 11:21 AM

Oh and AC,

Only Consumption can create jobs.

Rich folks won't produce a single thing if their is no market for the product/service.

In addition, the extent of the production is limited to their short-term sales expectations and all that is dependent upon the rate of consumption.

Since labor is a resource, just like natural resources used in production, increased use of labor resource depends upon increased consumption of the product/service.

The rich don't order steel, plastic, or lumber for products they cannot sell, nor will they hire labor to produce products/services they cannot sell.

If you want to increase jobs then you must increase consumption.

Empirically and mathematically, the best way to do that when recovering from a deflationary economy is to utilize the strongest economic tool available and the one that has the best proven track-record, the Federal Spending Multiplier.

Cutting trillions from the Federal Spending Multiplier/safety net in the hopes that somehow the Tax Multiplier will be able to magically ignore the math and magically become great enough to compensate for the sharp and dramatic decline of the Federal spending Multiplier, which the Republican Party is suggesting we do -- in the midst of a a mixed deflationary economy -- borders on insanity from an economic point of view.

Good luck with that...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 2:24 AM

Almost Critical,

More of your empty rhetoric

Let me know when you have something to say that is not a Republican Party talking point.

The election is over. You lost. Get used to it and please try to respect our President's mandate from the People. Its time to put your sour grapes aside and get with the program.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 1:47 AM

AlmostCritical how about the next time you post a page long political diatribe you bring it to the political blog? We'll be waiting for you.

How about you sharing just when the golden years of America were, but please over there. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 7, 2012, at 12:42 AM

For starters, I do watch Fox News programs. I also watch MSNBC. I like to see things from both sides and make up my own mind. That's one of the great things about this country.

Now, I do have to wonder how you can consider Obama a conservative democrat? He supports abortion, wants to give illegals full amnesty, supports same-sex marriage, has not once tried to cross the isle to come to a bi-partisan agreement and pushes hard for class envy/warfare. These are just a few of many many examples. Don't even get me started on Obamacare! That is almost as liberal as it gets.

Entitlements. There are many people in this country in need of assistance by no fault of their own. If you ask me, help them. But, in the process of helping them financially, help them find work. I personally am not too proud to get the assistance if I ever needed it. I have a family to feed. But I am too proud to stay on it and accept more than what I need to survive. I don't need a cell phone. I don't need internet. I don't even NEED tv. However, because I get up every morning and go to work, I can scrape by and afford these luxuries. But I will toss all of them before I except help from the government. And for those people who can't work, there are programs for them too. I know of way to many examples just in Marshall of people who get EBT and Medicaid for their kids but continue to smoke a pack or two a day. Or they own a successful small business and can afford brand new trucks and cars but somehow get assistance. I am all about helping people out when they are down, but I believe they should also help themselves out.

I think I have every right to blame the liberals in office about everyone getting "free stuff". Watch any news network and you will hear from the mouth of the president that he is not willing to budge on the entitlements when it comes to the budget. He is also not willing to budge on his stance on raising taxes on the "top two percent" of Americans. This top one or two percent, depending on who you are listening to at the time, are very much the job creators. By taxing them even a little more, you are getting a lot of people laid off. Is this right? No. But it is their money and they have that right.

Its getting late and there is no way I am going to change any minds on this blog so I am going to end it here. I pray for all of those who have fallen under this administrations spell so that their kids and grand-kids will someday live in the America I did until the last few years. Goodnight All

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Thu, Dec 6, 2012, at 10:46 PM


Hopefully the mandatory 50% across the board budget cuts will be taking effect on Jan 1, and that will greatly curtail any further American global bullying.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 6, 2012, at 2:31 PM

Karzai, our puppet that we installed as president of Afghanistan when the war started blasts U.S., and NATO, blaming us for the Afghan problems.

Is there even one rational reason that we remain there? There are many rational reasons why we should not.

Bring our troops home now! Nothing will change there in the next year. Nothing has changed there in a thousand years.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 6, 2012, at 12:02 PM


Is it possible that community service/outreach/giving opportunities be placed in front of the MDN firewall? I would have liked to give items for the 'pack a school bus' or holiday project or toys for tots, but I did not know where and when it was. I'm not trying to get 'something for nothing', but I imagine there are many other people like me who can't afford to pay for a MDN subscription, but would participate in these projects if they knew about them. JMHO


-- Posted by k_m on Thu, Dec 6, 2012, at 8:26 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
We'll do that. Thanks for the suggestion.


Sorry for the typo in my previous comment -- I wrote "buy" and meant "by."

I hope that clears it up lol.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Dec 6, 2012, at 12:30 AM

Almost Critical

1.) You think the mainstream Democrats are liberal?

That's funny mate.

I wish they were, but they are not.

Buy most estimates, liberals constitute about 30% of the Democrats and in fact, this liberal (me) voted Libertarian in the last election -- not Democrat (I am an independent voter).

If you have a problem with the Democrats then you need to take it to the middle-of-the-road and conservative Democrats (such as Obama).

We liberals have not had any power since the days of Carter mate and there has not been a single piece of liberal legislation passed since 1964 (1964 Civil Rights Act).

So really, the problems can't be laid on the liberal doorstep.

2.) The economic problems in Europe -- including Greece, Spain, Italy, ect are conservative austerity programs -- plain and simple. I recommend you read up on their problems. None of it has anything to do with American liberals.

3.) There are some real good reasons for entitlement programs. We the People have no intention of allowing the Republicans to starve Americans. We the Majority have no intention of instituting the conservative austerity programs (entitlement elimination) that you suggest -- get used to it as its a part of your being part of a small, disappearing political minority.

We the People say NO! to austerity programs. Get used to it.

As to the rest of your Republican talking points, those dogs just won't hunt mate.

Mimicking Fox News won't help your "cause" anymore now than it did when Republicans were spewing the same nonsense before the election -- and you know how that worked out for you.

That is why the Republicans can't win elections.

In the end, if you don't like liberals, too bad.

As to the changes in voter's demographics and the resulting Republican loss of power -- get used to it!

However, if you need to get back into the Republican reality-bubble where its 1955 and Wally and the Beaver are still the biggest thing around, then I recommend you click your heels together 3 times and repeat the magic word 3 times.


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 11:51 PM

Very nice commentary, Almost Critical. I wish I could share your positive thinking about liberals not being able to blame anyone else come 2014, but I can't do it. That is who they are. They always have someone else to blame. Everything is someone else's fault.

-- Posted by outsider on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 9:27 PM

ND and News Across. Although I dont agree with your opinions, thats just what they are and we have to put up with them just as I hope you do mine.

I can only hope that you are right about November 2014. Then and only then will the liberals in office be able to blame no one but themselves for the way America has turned into Greece. As a lower income member of this community, I live pay check to pay check and I cannot afford to have a penny more taken out of my check. Let me also say that although I am of the lower income bracket, I have not accepted a single hand-out from the government. If I need more money, I work harder and longer.

Im tired of everyone around me getting all of these hand-outs and living better off my money than I am. I go to walmart and stand in line behind someone paying for steaks, name brand drinks that are not on sale and the most expensive junk food offered with food stamps, only to follow them out and see their brand new SUV parked next to my 15 year old truck.

It is the liberals, in my opinion, who think if you dont want to work you deserve everything handed to you and shame on you if you do want to work so lets tax them more until they cant afford to even be poor.

America, what happened to waking up every morning and looking outside where you live and thinking to yourself, "it may not be the best in the world but I paid for it myself and I love it". The liberals in office want you to look outside every morning and see the car your neighbor is driving and think you deserve the same even though they have a low paying job and you have been sitting on your butt collecting entitlements for two years.

Im done rambling now so have a wonderful evening everyone and a joyous CHRISTmas Season.

-- Posted by Almost Critical on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 8:39 PM

"Fox News CEO issues orders to keep Rove [and Dick Morris] off the air"




-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 4:04 PM


Don't worry, We the People will be finishing the job we started November 2012 come November 2014 when We the People kick the remaining Republicans in Congress to the curb.

Clearly, despite the President's mandate from the People, the Republicans still don't get it.

But they surely are going to get it in 2014!

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Dec 5, 2012, at 2:51 PM

Sarah - Great job on the "Truth" piece.

Turns out it was prophetic - in its nature and scope - when weighed against the backdrop of Saturday's tragedy in KC.

Thanks again for all your hard work and for helping us to journey into places we can't see or touch on our own.


-- Posted by shep on Tue, Dec 4, 2012, at 12:42 PM

"The 'fiscal cliff' and other reasons companies aren't hiring more workers"


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 3, 2012, at 11:54 AM

I agree OKR -- Well done Sarah. I know you put a lot of thought and energy into that. I'm glad to see the final product turned out well. Major points.

-- Posted by Maggie Menderski on Sun, Dec 2, 2012, at 11:10 PM

Nice job Sarah on the Seeking Truth feature.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 1, 2012, at 12:26 AM
Response by Sarah Reed/Staff writer:
Thanks for reading, OR. I feel privileged to have been trusted with that.


Well I hope you do win the lottery, and while we are at it I hope I win it too.

However, if you ever do go to Brewarrina don't plan on staying more than 7 days.

Conditions in Brewarrina and other Australian Outback frontier towns are terrible. In fact, almost every Ozzie I met there (European Australian) was trying his or her darnedest to get out of there and down to the coast. Every business is for sale. Every farm and ranch is for sale.

For most of them, even most the Euro-Aussies, moving to the coast is a very expensive proposition. Property values in Brewarrina are about 20% of the properties on the coast. Most homes in Brewarrina are valued at less than $100,000 while a moderate home on the coast would run around $500,000. In addition, the cost of living on the coast is much higher than in Brewarrina.

Some of the Euro-Aussies are teachers who teach the mostly Tribal children in the public schools. They receive a lot of perks and benefits for teaching in an Outback school. They come in from the coast, teach for 4 or more years, then most return to the coast. They don't purchase homes when they are teaching in Brewarrina. Teachers are provided with houses -- for free -- to live in while they are there teaching. So for them moving back to the coast is easy.

As a consequence of the poverty, racism, and the Tribal anger at the Euro-Aussies, life in Brewarrina is very difficult for everyone there.

It is not a pleasant place. It is a pretty place, but it is a very hard place to live or visit.

1 week is all I could ever take of it. Its very sad to see what has become of the poor Tribal folks there. In fact the last time I was there, I was very anxious to leave on my 8th day there.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 29, 2012, at 5:50 PM


I enjoyed the pictures. Wish I could afford a couple weeks to enjoy it myself! Maybe some day, maybe....if I win the lottery!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 7:12 PM

former editor,

Recently we were discussing in this forum the topic of Indigenous People.

As I said then, I have been to the Australian frontier and have spoken with quite a few of the First Australians that live there.

If you would like to see the photos I took while there then simply follow the link below, click on photos, then click on any of the 4 albums on Brewarrina.

You might find it to be an interesting photographic journey.


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 27, 2012, at 12:27 PM

I post this to force all of us that ignore,

the folly that is known as the Afghan war,

to think of it at least for one moment more.

Bring them home now, those dispirited but brave,

before even one other must come home to a grave.

End the fears of mothers who whisper why this?

End the tears of sweethearts they never may kiss.

No more little children gazing out the front door,

who cry I didn't know daddy, he died in that war.

Whether we stay there more years, or one more day,

It will remain what it is, no matter what we say.

Now this is a family value to which we can all attend.

No more broken families, this war must now end!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 26, 2012, at 11:48 PM

Valley wins 10 - 7, but they need to have a better short game to get to the championship game.

Bethel was good, but had no kicking game and shot themselves in the foot a lot.

Vikings have a championship defense, so I hope the offense wakes up a bit.

Also, we could have had a bit better clock management on our next to last drive.

Having said that; good luck Vikings!

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 3:42 PM

I am a quarter native american member of Sault Ste Marie tribe of Chippewa Indians. I have visited the reservation and I can say they are doing a juggling act trying to keep their customs yet be able to survive in the Usa. Even tho they are nation within a nation they have to abide by fed laws. Their top industries Gambling, commercial fishing. Before the casinos we were a poor tribe. Now we are prosperous.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Nov 24, 2012, at 11:50 AM

former editor,

And regarding the First Americans in New Mexico...well...they don't seem to feel they have gotten a fair shake.

"Watch: 'The disenfranchisment of Native Americans continues today"

with video


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 10:36 PM

former editor

I have been to the Australian frontier and have spoken with many of the First Australians.

It is my impression, based on their statements to me, that they feel the European descendants should give them their Country back -- now...right now!

Similarly, as a First American, I concur with the First Australians. European descendants and their proxies are occupying stolen property in Australia and in America and should immediately give it back.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 5:37 PM

In some cases "melting pot" erases diversity in places where it is geographically important. Take, for example, New Mexico. I am all for preserving native languages such as the Athabascan variety of Navajo (Dine). And the Dine ("the people") have a valid but different way of defining others. For example, native English speakers are "Anglos." They apply that to both light skinned people of European ancestry and darker skinned people of African ancestry who in the Navajo view share a common culture and language. When I lived in N.M., many descendants of the early Spanish settlers spoke Spanish, and N.M. may be the only state in which English and Spanish are official languages. New Mexico was a great place because of all the different groups who preserved the uniqueness that is historical, back to the 1600's, and back into prehistory.

How do the native populations of Australia view Europeans and others?

-- Posted by former editor on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 5:02 PM

News, I'll go along with your point made to former editor regarding cultural diversity.

Jason, you've somehow managed to construe the melting pot catch-phrase as having a substantial meaning. It never has, and it never will.

ND's census data makes it clear enough.

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 2:54 PM

former editor

Exactly mate.

And as long as those tokens embrace the dominant culture of Marshall, there won't be any problems...eh mate?


I think perhaps we have different definitions of "Cultural Diversity."

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 2:03 PM

Not only that I see no racial hatred in this town doesn't mean there is its just a very low issue seen it with the way people greet each other...

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 12:42 PM

On diverse population of the area, I saw it working Census 2010. I met people from South Pacific islands, from Mexico, from Guatemala including some whose families at home still spoke not just Spanish but the native American language. One person who proudly claimed Hispanic cultural affiliation was a Spanish citizen, an international student at Missouri Valley College. MVC invites students from other countries. Because many cannot make it home during our holiday periods, Marshall families invite them in to share our cultural traditions.

-- Posted by former editor on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 8:22 AM

Thanks for the census data, NanDot. It helps illustrate Jason1969's point. Marshall is way more diverse than most rural communities in this part of Missouri. In fact, at more than 25 percent, it's got a bit higher percentage of minority residents than Columbia.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Fri, Nov 23, 2012, at 6:54 AM

Yeah Jason,

Hispanics, Asians, Black Americans in America and in Marshall??? Why who'd a thunk it??

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 9:29 PM

There is lots of Mexican's African American's and not to mention the senior citizens if you can't find a melting pot in here then you need a seeing eye dog....I have started conversations with people who are glad to be here...I find that this town is more open then most towns I have lived in....And I almost forgot about the asian-americans love their culture honor is the biggest anchor in their culture.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 9:19 PM

On the positive side, Marshall has a charm that is unique to Marshall.

We love coming home to visit Marshall, but its a very long trip for us. Never-the-less, even my Australian wife remembers Marshall with great fondness. She always tells me that of all the places she has been -- and that is all over the World, she thinks Missouri is the most beautiful. She spent many seasons visiting me up there on Montague Hill before we married. She loves the Spring and fall there the most. In fact, we both preferred she emigrate to Marshall rather than me going to Oz, but she is an only-child and her parents were elderly. That sealed our decision and off to Oz I went.

Marshall is a wonderful and charming town where folks are very friendly, the food is wonderful, and a place where a person feels like they are home...even when home is far away.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 8:03 PM


Yeah its a been a couple of years.

If its changed, its the first time in 80-something years...or so my Dad tells me.

Except of course he says the one thing that has changed in Marshall in his memory is that Marshall used to vote about 90% Democrat in elections and now votes about 90% Republican.

As to increased cultural and sub-cultural diversity, I find that an unlikely event in Marshall.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 7:48 PM

Happy Thanksgiving to all!


You should get to Marshall and look around. Marshall has a very diverse group of citizens. You'd be amazed how things have changed. How long has it been since you have been here?

-- Posted by litlmissme on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 7:29 PM

You know if you get to know people you would find that anywhere but you have to be a seeker.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 7:01 PM


You say, "... I live in a small town with a mix of different people from all walks of life."

That is interesting.

I thought you lived in Marshall.

Small towns generally are not nearly as diverse as cities, so its fascinating to know there is a small town somewhere in America that is a genuine mixing bowl of diverse people and cultures.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 3:17 PM

Happy Thanksgiving I am thankful I live in a small town with a mix of different people from all walks of life. I take this time to be reflect on the blessings I have received and the ones I have not yet received be safe have a joyful time.

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 12:17 PM

There is much to give thanks for on this day. Here are a few things that you may not have considered.

I am thankful that I am not a member of a cross cultural family where dog will be the main item on today's menu. The same goes for the various insects that are considered delicacies in some parts.

Though once upon a time I enjoyed delicious brain sandwichs on white bread, drenched in catsup at Twilling's Tavern, I am grateful that is not my Thanksgiving fare.

Happy eating everyone! ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 10:57 AM

Outrageous, cautionary tale here about deep-frying a turkey. Don't know if it's true, but strange things happen. I remember when son barbecued some beef and started a grass fire that melted vinyl siding off the garage. This Tennessee tale is far more dramatic.


-- Posted by former editor on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 7:30 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Thanks for posting the cautionary info. Led by former reporter Pat Nolan, the MDN fried a turkey a couple of years ago -- with appropriate care. It was delicious!


Nah, we don't pay any attention to most American holidays down this way mate.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 22, 2012, at 12:22 AM

Thanksgiving greetings to the farflung MDN family. Today, I remembered that on Thanksgiving Day in 1985 we flew to Sydney, Australia for our first visit. Twentyseven years later, I'm reading the daily discourse of "news across". Turkey on the barbie?

Thanks to Eric, Marcia, Kathy and others who keep a sense of humor whilst reporting and photographing Marshall's lively scene.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 10:16 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Thanks upsedaisy! Happy Thanksgiving to you and to everyone who reads and participates in our conversations here.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! :)

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, Nov 21, 2012, at 4:08 PM

Congratulations to Attorney General Chris Koster. First he received a $2 million settlement for fraudy, forged signatures on land title documents that infiltrated our courthouses. Now he followed up with criminal charges against the head of LPS DocX of "Linda Green" fame. (Fame? Try infamous.) Lorraine Brown, former President of DocX, LLC entered into a plea agreement on forgery, perjury and false declaration charges.

Koster's news release said "practices of DocX were brought to national attention by a '60 Minutes' report," but those who looked carefully at housing bubble/foreclosure information knew about the forgeries earlier. Koster said his prosecution is based upon the "principle that when you sign your name to a legal document, it matters."

Forged documents tend to break chain of title, and with real estate, good title is very important. And, yes, there are forged land documents in Missouri recorder offices.

-- Posted by former editor on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 5:51 PM


In my humble opinion, we have already reached the point of no return.

The changes over the next 20 years or so will be immense, and even though people will finally have their eyes opened to climate change (for whatever the reason), it will be too late.

I expect that we will reach a new equilibrium and that some areas will be relatively unaffected; however, I am thinking of a retirement villa in Antarctica. The temperature should be mild enough in 20 years.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Nov 20, 2012, at 10:12 AM

Valley hosts a 2nd round game against the team that beat the #1 seed on the road; so get to the game and support the now top seeded Vikings!

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 9:14 AM

"World Bank warns global temp. could rise devastating 4 degrees this century"


-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 19, 2012, at 3:15 AM

On the rfid found this interesting you should read it... http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2012/Au... is this the mark of the beast

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 10:26 PM

"Twinkies: A rest in peace tribute video"


-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 18, 2012, at 12:56 AM

The same person who saved Pabst Blue Ribbon beer may save the Twinkies....C. Dean Metropoulos

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 8:16 PM

It is a sad day for me....R.I.P HoHos, twinkies, Snoballs, oh my!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sat, Nov 17, 2012, at 10:45 AM

Everything in my world is in pretty good shape, Jo, but you're right about Texas. Hey! Surely you don't think I write in red ink! lol Yep, I believe Texas has about as many reds as good old Missouri. If you figure out a way back to the 50's, I want to tag along. :) My eyes are still working, enough to sit in front of this thing, anyway. Thanks for the good wishes! I hope you have a great Thanksgiving!

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, Nov 16, 2012, at 1:14 AM

Slater hows everything in Texas, the red state ha! I think i read in one of your post it was Texas. Yes i'm fine except i want too be back in the 50's again tee hee hee! Hows your Eyes? Better i hope! We won the Election!!

-- Posted by Jo on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 10:01 PM

Thanks for the link OKR.

Hey Jo! I've been thinking abnout you. Good to see you again! I hope you're doing well.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, Nov 15, 2012, at 2:26 PM

Good one Okla,Keynesian Economic! a vicious circle! I have too read more about this! Thanks

-- Posted by Jo on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 8:24 PM

Re: Missouri River

I recall attending an Arrow Rock symposium given by Dr. James Harlan on the Missouri landscape pre European arrival and changes. Harlan, who mapped the Lewis and Clark landscape, was creating detailed maps of what grew where from the earliest Missouri survey reports. Of course, much of northern and western Missouri was prairie, and prairies and their fertility were maintained by prairie fires and Native American set fires.

With respect to chemical nutrients that benefited plant life, Harlan said that prairie fires released nutrients. In addition to fertilizing plant growth, excess flowed down the Missouri River, and these naturally occurring or Native American fire induced nutrients are now added through fertilizers. We don't know how large the Gulf of Mexico dead zone was in frontier days and earlier because no one was monitoring it. We do have some clues to the fact that the river moves much, much less sediment that it did before historic period, Corps of Engineers changes.

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/nati... refers to the vegetation mapping project.

-- Posted by former editor on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 12:02 PM

She is no longer missing Slater. >http://www.marshallnews.com/story/189958...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 12:26 AM

Does she include any evidence about lawn fertilizers being the cause of the 6000-square-mile dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico?

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 12:24 AM

Did anything ever turn up about the missing statue?

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, Nov 14, 2012, at 12:20 AM

RET123, you'll really enjoy Marcias book, it's great!

-- Posted by captaingbb on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 9:45 PM

Click the following link ret123 to find out where to get Marsha's book. :) http://www.marshallnews.com/story/189668...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 6:58 PM

I am sickened by the mainstream television news providers spending all their time titillating themselves, and us with the personal relationships of a General, or two for hours on end. At the same time we are fortunate if we get two sentences a week from them about what is going on in Afghanistan where our forgotten warriors continue to die in a forgotten war with a long forgotten mission.

Television news is nothing more than an extension of entertainment tonight. It is an insult to our intelligence. Can we sink any lower?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 5:52 PM

Could anyone tell me where I can purchase Marcia Gorrell's book "Semi-View"?

-- Posted by ret123 on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 5:45 PM

That sounds like a fantastic project!!

That is just great. It warms my heart to know folks still care about the less fortunate. With all the troubles these days, at least they can enjoy a nice Christmas.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 4:16 PM

Thank you Ben, I'll do that.

News, I would love it if someone else would pitch in and tell you more info about the Holiday Project. I only know from an outsider's point of view, but it's held in early December for low or no income families - I believe they have to apply to be eligible. Anyhow, the families come in and go 'Christmas shopping' - I believe there is toys and food to select from, maybe clothes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong; is everything either donated or purchased on donations and grants?

-- Posted by k_m on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 3:03 PM

I'd say check with anyone at the Missouri Valley Community Action Agency or the City of Marshall.

-- Posted by gentle ben on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 1:18 PM

Holiday Project?

That sounds interesting.

Tell us more mate. Whats the plan?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 12:56 PM

Does anyone know who the contact person is if we have donations for the Holiday Project?

-- Posted by k_m on Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 12:45 PM


I think they should all stand back and let that hammer fall.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 2:35 PM

Nana, it's true that Congress can 'fix' things after a deadline, but doesn't it make a whole bunch more sense to fix things as soon as it is realized that they are broken?

Witness the reinstatement of the Estate Tax three-quarters of the way through its year of repeal. Sure, it 'fixed' the repeal for people who had already died, and whose taxable estates had already been distributed to heirs. Would you want to be one of those heirs, having to cough up $$$ in order to keep the commercial building you inherited then mortgaged to the hilt in order to bring it back up to standards, then find that the fair market value went through the floor?

Congress needs to get off its collective hindquarters and work TOGETHER to balance the needs and desires of ALL sides into an equitable plan to address spending, deficits, taxes, employment, and everything else. All those non-negotiable pledges to be the immovable object on an issue where there are real arguments and interests on the other side need to be abandoned and disavowed as soon as possible.

This may sound anti-Republican since the most well-known of those pledges are the Republican anti-tax pledges, but it is intended to be applied to the more extreme elements of BOTH sides. They are BOTH at fault on this. Compromises MUST be made!

-- Posted by TerryM on Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 12:36 PM

Incisive, and eloquent CPp. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 11, 2012, at 5:15 PM

NanaDot sadly I can not disagree with you :(

cheesehead thanks for the link sadly this does not shock me at all

-- Posted by Gal66 on Sat, Nov 10, 2012, at 12:09 PM


Thank you for posting that.

Awareness of racism and actively fighting racism is a never ending struggle by good people determined to triumph over evil.

Information such as that contained in the link you provided advances our collective struggle.

Good on ya mate!

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 8:25 PM

Missouri ranks in the Top 10 in a tracking of post election racists tweets among the 50 states.

What people should remember is that being silent in the face of evil is just as bad as the people performing evil acts. This is bad news for Missouri!


-- Posted by cheesehead on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 7:55 PM

Sadly News, me too.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 4:40 PM


I too am an independent voter.

The candidate I supported lost the election.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 4:33 PM

I agree that the President did a better job handling Sandy, than Katrina was handled, however, you and I will never know if indeed it was because it was an election year or not.

Also, in regard to Benghazi, we will never know the actual truth behind that, unless you were there.

I don't put any more faith in one news organization than I do the other.

I don't live in any bubble, I have never voted with one party just because they were the best party. I try to make my mind up on each canidate by gathering as much knowledge as possible from several sources.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 4:25 PM


I only live on 1 planet...and I don't live in the Republican bubble.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 2:30 PM

Well news I have no doubt nothing in this or any other world could change that.......

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 2:01 PM



I don't think that at all.

I am proud of our President for his leadership during Sandy.

And all the fox news bubbles and all the con ignorance in the World won't, can't, change that.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 1:30 PM

So news do you think the Obama tried to capitalize on another tragedy (sandy)?

OKR no I don't see it that way.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 12:45 PM

G66 I think that you missed the point when you concluded that ND must think that the incident was handled properly. I believe you overlooked "to expect THIS President to have miraculously behaved 'perfectly' in the jaundiced eyes of the GOP is absurd". That infers another conclusion. Watcha think? :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 12:40 PM


I think its pure nonsense.

Its a tragedy that occurred in a dangerous place where we didn't belong in the first place.

Worse yet, the Republicans tried to capitalize on our Nation's tragedy and create an issue where one never existed.

And if my Representative in the House or either of our Senators tries to take political ground -- even a little bit -- from that tragedy, I and many others will be screaming for their political head on a platter.

To the cons and Fox News I say.,


And remember Gal, just click your heels together 3 times and say,

Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!

and you will be magically transported back to the Conservative Utopia of the'50s.

Have a great trip!

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 12:33 PM

ND I respect your opinion very much and I know you have see almost all my posts so you should know that I have posted about the things I have not liked about Bush ie like I was in favor of the war in Iraq until news, okr, you and others pointed out information I did not know.

So for you to put all of the Republican Party in one box is wrong in my opinion.

I do not expect anyone to be perfect but I do expect the leadership of this country to do the best they can, I do not think this president has done that.

I will also add I do not think any of the leadership of this country red or blue has.

From your last post I take it you must think the attack in Benghazi was handled the correct way?

Just wonder if the families of the dead think so!

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 12:15 PM

News and OKR thanks for the reply on Keynesian Economics.

From your last post you must think the attack in Benghazi was handled the correct way?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Nov 9, 2012, at 8:28 AM

Regarding the burst reality bubble of Republicans.

I realize many of our Republicans were recently dumb founded to learn that the bubble reality that they and Fox News had built around themselves was a completely false perception of reality.

I understand it has been very painful and difficult for them.

For those poor souls may I recommend that they simply click their heels together while repeating the magic word 3 time...

"Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!"

and they will be magically transported to the '50s where life is just a wonderful conservative paradise.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 8:34 PM


It took the Uni I graduated from 4.5 years to teach me enough to understand Keynesian Economics (et al) - including the math (college algebra, calculous, econometrics, quantitative methods) necessary to understand the concepts and other prerequisites as well.

There is no other way that I know of to learn medicine, physics, sociology, or any other complex field of study in much less time than 4 years.

The problem is that first you must understand the basics of both micro and macro Economics before you can understand the complex theories. Just learning basic economic mechanisms takes most of the first 2 years of an Economic major's higher education.

So attempting to provide a simple explanation of Keynesian Theory or any other economic theory in a comment just isn't going to happen.

Never-the-less, this is the crux of it.

Basically, Keynes proved mathematically, and later was confirmed empirically, that the Federal Spending Multiplier effect is far greater than the Tax Multiplier effect. Only the Federal Spending Multiplier has a large enough effect to pull an economy out of a deep deflationary period.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 7:16 PM


It that scenario, society has been very good to you. We did not have to purchase even $1 worth, and instead we bought billions of dollars worth. Yes, society has been extremely kind to you and has given you so much more than others. So you owe society far more than the minimum wage guy who flipped that hamburger you had at lunch.

There are a few other reasons you would want to give back to society, but the justification above is justification enough.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 6:30 PM

I believe you would G66. The problem is that you're not the norm. Investing in hedge funds to feed the greed instinct and turning nothing to production is the norm. Check it out.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 6:18 PM

OKR lets say I come up with a product that is very good I am able to sell billions of these for billions over the cost to make them why should i be taxed at a higher rate?

Why should I spend more of it than I want to.

Now keep in mind if I had that kind of money I would help as many people as I could and the people that worked for me would be well taken care of.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 5:51 PM

News Across, I would appreciate your critique of what I have written about economics. I do value your, obvious to me, expertise.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 5:31 PM

Part II

Now all during this time of travail a whole bunch of people have been making money hand over fist off the war, in an exclusive mini-Keynesian circle. So have the people who build yachts, and such, and investment services handling all that war profit.

Some folks begin to say that maybe those rich folks could pay a little more taxes, after all they are as loaded as Scrooge McDuck. Those folks began to quack like an angry Donald Duck; no, no, no, we will spend our money, and that will create jobs. If you tax us more we won't be able to spend it to do that, instead tax us less then we will spend more money for the services of you little people.

That is where the problem begins, ya gotta take their word on it, there ain't no guarantee. So we get really stupid, and say O. K. Then they take their extra money saved from having no tax increase, or God forbid, even more money from a tax decrease, and instead throw it into hedge funds, and such, where it does nothing to grow our economy. After all, how many yachts, and mansions can they buy, they have to do something else with their money. It would be stupid for them to produce anything here as nobody, but they have the money to buy anything. So some of them invest it overseas, building things for the world market where they can make a big profit. They know that move will result in even less taxes for them. The first rule of the rich, cover their bottoms, and their bottom lines, has just been followed. It is otherwise known as Neo-Classic Economics. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 5:29 PM

Keynesian Economics as defined by an ignorant person. (me)It goes like this:

Times get hard, people follow their natural inclination to hoard their money reserves. As more folks hoard, less goods are sold, more stores close, more people lose their jobs because goods pile up (inventory is maxed out), and there is no need to make more. More people then hoard.

Government begins building roads, and other things. People go back to work building those roads. Those returned to work people buy things, piled up inventory is gone, more people are hired to restore inventory.

Those people hired back to restore inventory begin to buy. More people are buying, inventory is gone. A new production facility starts up, more people are hired, those people buy.

That begins to happen over, and over in a circular fashion, the economy is expanding. Folks begin driving down the new road (financed by the government) with a smile on their faces, and don't mind so much paying the taxes necessary to restore to the government the money paid to build the road.

Now off the topic a bit into personal opinion; we get in trouble when we instead of roads, spend money on foreign war. When the war is over we are out a bunch of money with nothing to show for it, still riding a bumpy road. We shut down the cannon factories, people lose their jobs, uh oh, here we go again, It's time for the government to build another road.

But wait, the government doesn't have any money, we just spent it all on war, or worse borrowed the money for the war. To build a road taxes must be raised, in fact they must be raised to pay for the darn war, becaused we borrowed the money for it. People get angry, people start to hoard again. Stores close, people lose jobs.

We are desperate, so we borrow money first to build roads, and for loans to stores to keep their doors open and their people working. Gotta keep things moving on that Keynesian circle. Slowly things begin to move, and hopefully we can again sometime get back on a smooth road literally, and figuratively, and raise enough taxes to pay our war debt.

End Part I

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 4:53 PM

Scarpetta, I believe your statement is clear, as you intended.

As usual, in his inimitable manner, News is eager to straighten out our thinking for us.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 2:48 PM

news can you explane Keynesian economic policies to me in a simple way that I can understand please?

I started reading but it was so over my head I was lost.

Am I right in thinking that it calls for more involvment by the goverment but not in the way they have been trying for the past 50 years?

If so tell me what you think should be done.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 2:37 PM


As regards modern democratic forms of Western Socialism, yes many American would prefer we utilize a scientific approach to economics that is more stable than the current Neoclassical Guided Capitalist economy which has failed the majority of Americans.

You oppose democratic socialism as a part of your political ideology. That is your right and is reflected by how you use your vote.

Millions of Americans support democratic socialism as a part of their ideology. That is their right and it is reflected by how they use their votes.

As a democratic republic, such things as general economic policies are ultimately decided by majority vote.

The most recent presidential election is a good indicator of the direction the majority of voters are interested in going...for now anyway, but President Obama does not utilize a socialist approach, rather his economic policies are firmly Neoclassical Guided Capitalism with just a little Keynes sprinkled in.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 1:40 PM


Yes, the United States used Keynesian economic policies to pull the US out of the Great Depression, to arm our Nation and pay for the war during WW 2, and continued Keynesian economic policies right on through the 50's and 60's.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:27 PM


Oh I think you are correct mate.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:21 PM

news to answer your question in my opinion the left has been the cause of the USA heading in the direction of socialism, we have a large group of people in this country that think the goverment owes them something.

thats what the left has done!

I know that will not be specific enough for you but thats my opinion.

Now answer a question I asked you a long time ago and never got an answer.

Is there a country in the world that uses your economics principles that you have told us all about for sometime?

-- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:20 PM

News...frankly my friend I don't know enough about politics to infer any of that babble you spouted off. My intent was to only say the words I spoke and an inferment you or anyone else took...well that's on you. I typically try to say what I mean and mean what I say.

Plain and simple I believe the money spent on both sides is crazy.

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 12:07 PM

Thanks CPp,

I do wish however that President Obama would have selected the song I suggested he use as his election night victory song.


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 8, 2012, at 11:58 AM

Echo 9 Hotel,

Your model assumes a demographics that is dominated by a white majority, as has always been the case until recently.

That demographic no longer exists.

Whites along with all other races are now, for all intents and purposes, minorities.

That variable change makes the empirical data you cite unusable as a predictor of present and future trends.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 11:41 PM

"Perhaps the biggest question now is does the Republican Party have a future in American politics and if so, what is it?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:04 AM "

That doesn't seem to be much of a question at all. History shows that the American people tend to vote predominantly for one party for 8-12 years, get sick of their failures, and then vote for the other party for a similar period of time. Except for cases of exceptional stupidity...

lets take a look, shall we?

Rep. 1801-1829


Whig 1841-1845

Dem. 1845-1849

Whig. 1849-1853

Dem 1853-1861

Rep. 1861-1885

Dem. 1885-1889

Rep. 1889-1893

Dem. 1893-1897

Rep. 1897-1913

Dem. 1913-1921

Rep. 1921-1933

Dem. 1933-1953

Rep. 1953-1961

Dem. 1961-1969

Rep. 1969-1977

Dem. 1977-1981

Rep. 1981-1993

Dem. 1993-2001

Rep. 2001-2009

Dem. 2009-2013

So anyway, give it another 4 to 8 years, and the people will be so sick of the Democrats that they won't have a shot in heck, Historically speaking. Out best hope as a country is for a viable 3rd party candidate to win....but the Republicans are not going anywhere.. Much like every other political party, more than likeley they will simply change tactics.

After all, Democrats where the slave owners and oppressors at one time....and now look who votes for them........just saying, I have a feeling, based on NOTHING more than a hunch, that the Republicans will start to distance themselves from the radical right/evangelical nut jobs......since there simply isn't wnough of them to carry an election....

-- Posted by Echo 9 Hotel on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 9:40 PM


Great link mate...lol!

I love that look on cons' faces when their reality bubble burst yesterday.

I was watching coverage of the con camp where Romney would have given his victory speech and where of course he ended up giving his "Got Hammered by Obama" speech.

The cameras panned the audience right after they learned that, yeah, the Republicans had lost...again, and they had that same countenance as in your link -- you know, that dazed and confused look.

It was the exact moment their reality bubble burst.

Definitely priceless mate!


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 6:15 PM


You seem to infer in your comment that Obama represents American liberals.

I disagree with that notion.

Obama has governed center-right.

His economic policies are well rooted in Neoclassical, Guided Capitalist, Macro-Economic theory.

His approach to the Constitution has been largely Strict Constructionist.

Where in any of that do we find his liberalism?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 5:35 PM

Whaaaaaaat!? U mean I'm not the only one who thinks all this money spent on campaign advertising was completeley rediculuous!? That's a relief. It's irritating to me that candidates will dump millions in advertising to line someone's pocket when there are people starving, loosing their homes, loosing their jobs and going without medical treatment because they have no money. Yet Corporate America is giving them millions upon millions to buy votes. Elections are a like a game of chess combined with a popularity contest...it has minimal to do with actually being competent enough to run this country.

I'm still not sure if I'm "right" or "left"...although I'd like to think I'm more "middle"...but I thought they were both bozos. Now that being said we have Obama for another 4 wonderful years...lets hope his narrow win sends a message that a good portion of the American people think he can be doing a better job.

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 4:33 PM

Gal66 - You may be correct but I am not going to take your word for it.

-- Posted by pitbull on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 3:33 PM


Specifically, what is it "the left"

has done recently that makes you feel the left is a problem?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 2:37 PM

pitbull as you can see it's not the people more centered that are the problem it's the ones far left and far right.

Those of us more centered can talk until we are blue in the face with the far out there folks and it does no good.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 2:19 PM

YES G66 and Oklahoma reader! That is how it is done, folks - 2 people from opposite sides of the political spectrum have come to a civil compromise. If we ALL give a little, we ALL get a lot. FORWARD - together!

-- Posted by pitbull on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 2:12 PM

Sounds like you have a handle on it G66. Now if you can convince your more radical brethren we can get this country back on track. People like you have to do it, we are so polarized that they will not listen to one word spoken by we on the Left.

That leads me to consider whether I must do the same from the Left. I will start from the premise that I should not be in the business of telling others how they must lead their lives, and more importantly not promote the passing of laws that do.

Perhaps libertarianism will be the proper bridge where we may meet in the middle. :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:44 PM

OKR Posted "G66 this might be a good time for the Right to begin to engage in self examination in order to find a way to reestablish relevance.

You guys might start by recognizing that the American people do not like to be told how to live their personal lives, and understanding that culture is, and always has been a shifting thing."

You are right on both fronts and I think that for the most part us on the right that are more center thinking understand that.

SD posted "It is, in my opinion, time to get the big money out of the system and put some limits on campaign spending and duration. Spending a billion dollars over four years campaigning to win the next elections seems a bit much."

This has to happen.

I myself did not vote for an Incumbent, with the exception of those running unopposed.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:09 PM

And the divisiveness of American politics continues.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that although Gal 66 would not be in anyone's face following a Romney win, many others would have been.

That's us. That's America. We love to gloat when we, or our team, wins. We are a nation of proud chest thumpers. Who didn't know that?

Also, fortunately our founding fathers left us with a constitution and a system that makes it very hard for either party to destroy America by winning a few elections, no matter what the talking heads or politicians say, so I don't quite think it's time for anarchy or revolution just yet.

It is, in my opinion, time to get the big money out of the system and put some limits on campaign spending and duration. Spending a billion dollars over four years campaigning to win the next elections seems a bit much.

Less drama and predictions of doom among voters and pundits would be a nice change also, yet I don't hold much hope as we baby boomers seem to love the drama, and hate the opponent, passionately.

-- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 11:32 AM

G66 this might be a good time for the Right to begin to engage in self examination in order to find a way to reestablish relevance.

You guys might start by recognizing that the American people do not like to be told how to live their personal lives, and understanding that culture is, and always has been a shifting thing.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 11:14 AM

I'm seriously stunned that so many people are

satisfied with this totally incompetent President.

I am seriously worried for our nation now.

The in-your-face attitude by the Left, including some of our posters here only causes me to have one thing to say:

Are you kidding me!!!!

That's the problem with you lefties, you are so arrogant that you force your attitude on everyone you disagree with. Why not try just shutting your mouths once in a while and let your actions determine your successes instead of your attitude showing what kind of people you are.

Had Romney won I would have been celebrating, but I would NOT have been in anyone's face about it.

-- Posted by Gal66 on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 10:13 AM

What comes after a trillion? We have to get used to hearing it over and over again in the future!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 8:21 AM

Perhaps the biggest question now is does the Republican Party have a future in American politics and if so, what is it?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:04 AM

Its hard for the loyal opposition to gain any ground in the Congressional elections when they try to play partisan political games with a last-possible-term president (lameduck). Especially when he has a mandate from the People.

Obama will be far more effective and far more powerful in his 2nd term.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:02 AM

I heard some newsreader say that Obama received fewer electoral votes this time, and my thought was that only whiners and losers would consider that to actually mean something.

I recall Geo. HW ranting after losing to Clinton, saying that he had no mandate. Another giant whiner.

So, any word from TPartyAkin after getting his A_ _ trounced? (Look at me, putting myself right there with them.)

I was not intending to lose any sleep tonight, the outcome being one way or the other.

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, Nov 7, 2012, at 12:00 AM

Concession would not be in Willard's makeup.

I'm with you OKR. I'm relieved by the outcome, but not overjoyed by the prospect of more of the same happening over there.

Some distinct strides forward need to be forthcoming if the Democrats want to have future success filling the WH.

-- Posted by Slater on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 11:45 PM

How long do we have to wait for Romney to concede?

-- Posted by cheesehead on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 11:17 PM

So you did News, so you did. My reaction is that I am relieved, but not excited. We are destined for more gridlock. The most important thing is that we will get more balance on the Supreme Court.

I am surprised, and pleased that manipulation of electronic voting did not swing it the other way.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 11:04 PM


...told ys mate.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:40 PM



-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:38 PM

CBS has called the election for Obama! Amazing!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:21 PM

...and ousted the goat Akin.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:12 PM

My lovely wife just informed me Todd "our buddy" Akin is losing...badly...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 8:19 PM

And you don't see me going bizerk either...you know, like the folks on OKR's list did...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 8:16 PM


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 8:11 PM

I have read for quite a while, but only ever commented on somoething once before.....but is THAT BELOW what passes for quality debate?

"Another myth cleared up by BohdiLi:

Jesus spoke English, according to BohdiLi.

Wow, we sure are fortunate to have a Bible scholar amongst us!

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:20 PM "

-- Posted by Echo 9 Hotel on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 7:39 PM

No, I don't play the ponies Slater. However, it is Australia's version of the Kentucky Derby and a lot of fun to watch.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 7:32 PM

Yes OKR,

its unfortunate that some folks lack the appropriate self-control required for quality debate -- and quality forums.

To all those who went before and the most current member of that "exclusive" group, this song seems most appropriate.


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 7:28 PM

News, did you try your hand at picking a winner in the Melbourne Cup?

-- Posted by Slater on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 7:19 PM

CPP: No, MSNBC stated 48.3% Obama, 48.2 Romney with a 3% margin of error.

-- Posted by litlmissme on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 7:04 PM

BohdiLi, Third Child, Raytown Bill, JJ Gates, gone.

In each case they wrote as if their cork was about to pop. In each case it did.

I wonder when the next angry man with a lit fuse will appear.

The irony is that all the above mentioned excepting Raytown Bill had some interesting things to say, but it was lost when they each lost it.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 6:56 PM

"PA voting machine 'taken out of service' for flipping votes to Romney: report"



-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 6:25 PM

One thing is for sure about 48% of voters will be disappointed when the votes are tallied today.(according to the polls)

-- Posted by litlmissme on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 5:44 PM

I followed Al's suggestion and voted...again and again.

-- Posted by Slater on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 4:41 PM


Does that mean you saw the light and switched your vote to Governor Gary Johnson, Libertarian Candidate for the White House?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 3:23 PM

Break from the pack, vote Independent.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 11:42 AM

"Retire the dead!"

Vote Democratic.;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:55 AM

"Bring out the dead!"

Don't forget to vote.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 10:11 AM

"In the 2000 election, when Bob Holden and Jim Talent were running for governor, there was an orchestrated movement," he said. "People were actually bused to certain places to vote. There was a plan to keep the polls open. There was voter fraud that went on there, and it really affected the outcome of who became governor."-Senator Pearce

That was an interesting statement. I combed the internet for information about it, but found nothing. Thus I am still wondering if there was an investigation of the matter. Were any charges filed? Any convictions?

The only thing I found relating to the 2000 election was a charge by Kit Bond-R that a precinct in St. Louis was allowed to stay open late. If that was what Senator Pearce was talking about where is the supporting evidence?

Too bad someone didn't ask him follow up questions at the candidates forum. Fact checking is always a good thing.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 6, 2012, at 12:27 AM


Thanks for the good vibe!

-- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 11:39 AM

You can count on me too Wally!

-- Posted by OMG! on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 10:34 AM

Remember to vote Wally George on November 6th! I know he has my vote!!

-- Posted by supportem on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 10:28 AM

Thank you Nana!!

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 9:13 AM

Nope that didn't work. Said "no match"...

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Mon, Nov 5, 2012, at 6:43 AM

If someone doesn't know where the voting location is...how might one find out??

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 10:45 PM

ha ha! are you guys baptist? i'll probably hear it from the baptists for that.

you're acting as suspicious of the mormons as others have acted about the muslims.

i know they don't allow spectators at their wedding ceremony, and you can be married in the temple only if you meet certain standards as established by mormon law.

i don't believe they're into witchcraft. :)

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 9:34 PM

BEHIND THE VEIL: Never-Before-Seen Footage of Secret Mormon Temple Rituals


-- Posted by cheesehead on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 8:11 PM

No, the Mormon religion is not strange or mysterious, but a few of its customs may be odd, like their use of "holy" undergarments. Really, that's no different than the Catholics using "holy water," is it? And, yes, the average Baptist would be put off by Mormonism, but also the average Baptist would be put off by any other religion.

I wonder if the Romney supporters oppose Obama not because of his missing magic wand, but more out of resentment because of a "black" man occupying the White House.

Do people think of themselves as being more savvy today than 80 years ago? Most people haven't made the first step in the effort to learn something about the prevailing economic conditions or any other conditions affecting their lives because "that's for the politicians to figure out, that's their job, that's what they're paid to do." We live in much different times where factors increasingly influence our attitudes and behaviors, pushing us more and more toward social isolationism, and I don't see how we could reverse that trend even if we wanted to.

We're a spoiled nation, having had things too good for too long, but that's a glaring side effect of an evolving society. So much of our technology has made life easier, but not necessarily better. We've lost the will to do for ourselves and instead we rely on all of our gadgets and on others to do everything for us - even our thinking. Our lives have been manipulated by crooks for so long, we no longer possess the ability to distinguish the good goys from the bad guys.

The Romneys of the world ride herd over us, and we meekly acquiesce to their demands. Will we ever rise up and put a stop to it? I doubt it, particularly when the coming generations are living in a giant Skinner box and won't know the difference.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 6:12 PM

Interested Too

Regarding your comment about Obama...the one that was accidentally posted in the Religion Speak Out forum,...


You present a very, very compelling argument with relatively few words. Frankly, I am pretty impressed.

Good on ya mate!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 2:13 PM

I think I have finally figured out why all of those poor, and middle class struggling folk have come to trust Willard Romney, and intend to vote for him.

It is an anomaly that they would even consider voting for an elitist snob born with a silver spoon in his mouth; a man who obviously has somehow overcome his outspoken devotion to a religion that many of them consider a cult at best. It is a religion that is secretive, and strange; one that is off putting to the average Baptist. Yet he has been given a "never mind"on that.

He has stated in a divulged private conversation his disdain for half of the American citizenry. On that he has also drawn a pass. Granted that a delusioned minority of that economic lower half consider themselves something more than what they are, and don't think he was talking about them. That is not the case for most. Thus there must be something else that is drawing their favor.

Many Romney supporters are disenchanted with Obama because he hasn't come up with a magic wand to wave, making the worst economic depression in eighty years somehow go away in four years.

They are as irked by the lack of instant gratification as are small children. We as a citizenry have been manipulated by commercial advertising to expect instant gratification. They have long promised us "just buy this, and things will be immediately better". Is it any wonder that we, as a nation, transfer those expectations from our material desires to our political desires? We are trained monkeys ready to buy something else when the promises of our last buy invariably do not pan out.

Thus the folk somehow percieve that Willard Romney not only wears magic underwear, but from somewhere in his secret religion will be able to pull out a magic wand to make things instantly better. Therefore a nation conditioned to avoid rational thought will elect Romney as our President then turn him out in four years when his promised return to the way things were pre-Obama does not make things all better for the perennial children we have become.

We have no patience, and it will be our undoing.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 1:39 PM

Well said Slater! :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 12:03 PM

Actually, what he said was, if I'm not getting the job done, then I wouldn't deserve to be re-elected.

Getting the job done is a relative phrase, considering the state of things when he took over. No one should expect a complete reversal in four years, or even eight years, for that matter. And, with the number of crooks influencing the crooked politicians, it may never happen.

I won't be voting against Romney because he's a Republican. I'll vote against him because he's not genuine. He's eager to say whatever it takes to get his foot in the big door. If he were sincere and would stick to a plan and talk about it openly, then I'd hear him out, but that hasn't happened because he believes he has to resort to trickery and double talk to bamboozle the voters.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 11:18 AM

One truth Obama said during his first campaign: If I don't get the job done in the first four years, I don't deserve a second term. Now that I beleive!

-- Posted by litlmissme on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 10:11 AM


My family is going entirely the other way. After Ryan's attack on Social Security and Todd Akin's horribleness; my parents, in-laws and most of my cousins are voting for Obama. There are a few holdouts, and they have their reasons, but for the most part, my family's and your family's' votes are going to cancel each other out.

-- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 8:11 AM

I haven't been following along with any of the campaigning this time, but my feeling is that Obama may be overconfident. I don't believe Romney can beat him, but Thomas Dewey thought he had Truman by the short hairs, too.

Before the Republicans gained control of the House this last time, I believed that they would be wise to concede this election to the Democrats, and if Obama and Co. can't get the job done, THEN they should be able to make a strong case for their side for at least 8-12 years.

Inthemiddle, it's hard to believe your father would turn away from his party, especially for someone like Romney, the smirky smug condescending guy who believes 47% of us are shiftless and lazy.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 1:26 AM

Darned if I know inthemiddle.

I am an independent voter. I am supporting Governor Gary Johnson who is the Libertarian Candidate.

I don't support Obama or Romney, but mate after seeing and hearing Romney's 47% speech that he thought I and other 99%ers wouldn't see I realized that Romney is a man of very poor moral character.

I wish I could watch both Obama and Romney lose, but we all know that won't be the case. So, if one of those 2 have to win, I sure hope its not Romney.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 4, 2012, at 12:25 AM

If Romney wins, and I am not saying he will; will Democrats get the message? It has been my observation over the last decade that the Democrats have oversimplified the Republicans and their message. And that I think may be their weakness. I have read many of the posts by the most ardent of you and I see the tendancy toward oversimplification. Republicans couldn't possibly have legitmate arguments or proposal, it is oversimplified as "racist" or "haters" or "homophobes" or "just plain stupid."

I come from a family of life-long Democrats, however they are mostly moderate Democrats. My father is nearly 80 and a proud card-carrying member of a labor union. He told me recently that he has never voted for any Republican in his life. From listening to my father and the rest of the family, they are all voting for Romney or not voting at all.

I have to say that I believe Democrat turnout will not be close to what it was in '08.

-- Posted by inthemiddle on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 8:49 PM

WOW! That makes 2 fun songs to enjoy while we watch Romney's campaign go down in flames.

Great choice CPp!!

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 7:48 PM

Music to enjoy seeing Romney lose by:


-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 6:02 PM

Thanks for the info News and Nana. Much appreciated.

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Sat, Nov 3, 2012, at 8:51 AM

I'd rather have the status quo, than status no. The common person will definitely have no status with Romney even though he has admitted that is the case for only 46% of us. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 7:05 PM


Emigrate to any other Western Nation -- they all have socialized medicine.

But all kidding aside, your's is a serious situation faced by millions of Americans. I don't know of any existing solution currently, except perhaps your local emergency room -- and they will be sending you a humongous bill.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 2:35 PM

"Jobs Report Shows Persistent Economic Growth"




-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 2:29 PM

Here's a question...ok...health insurance for kids. Affordable. Single parent makes too much money for Medicade not enough money to do anything else...oh and kids are denied because of existing health issues?? Does anyone know of options??

Oh and I have a job, don't collect food stamps, and father pays support...so I'm not interested in a leacture just information.

-- Posted by Scarpetta on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 2:21 PM

Jason in regard to your post at 12:38 AM; you may find it surprising, but I am inclined to agree with you.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 10:36 AM

Jason...maybe you just WANT him to win?

I disagree with your assesment.

And I am not supporting either Romney nor Obama, but to me it appears Obama has in locked in.

Never-the-less, my vote is going to Governor Johnson.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 1:36 AM

I like the way Leo's ad was moved to the bottom of the ad board when Wally put his as on here. Got to love the things the press do to support their candidates.

-- Posted by Gumby on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 1:05 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
If you're talking about the posterboard, we have no control over the order ads are displayed. Also: The Democrat-News is a non-partisan publication.

I do believe that the dems will not show up at the polls as much as 2008 just my opinion. 2 reasons 1. the economy 2. Not as charged up as 2008 and the other factor going is as that the Republicans are really set on ousting Obama but as much of a fervent pitch as it was in 2008 when the Dems where all fired up and wanting a change..The atmosphere is different. I think its going to be a close race but I thin Mitt will win. Mitt picked up an endorcement from Obama's own backyard http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/01...

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Fri, Nov 2, 2012, at 12:38 AM

The gallup poll actually says that the electorate is gonna look like 2008 levels but polling Democrats at 2004 level so this is a little bit confusing.

-- Posted by cheesehead on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 10:48 PM


The Gallup poll also had Obama winning by 4% more than he actually got in 2008. I really dont think that Democrats are gonna vote at a lower rate than they voted for John Kerry especially when all predictions state Latinos are gonna make up 3% more of the electorate than 2008. Maybe that will happen in Missouri, but not the swing states that will decide the election.

-- Posted by cheesehead on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 10:45 PM

...and Romney will still lose.

Wow, that is pretty bad.

Do you think the Republican Party will get the message this time around?

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 10:33 PM

The Gallup Poll finds that the 2012 election will actually have more Republicans and fewer Dems voting than any of the past 4 elections

-- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 9:40 PM

"Bloomberg endorses Obama"


-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 5:17 PM

A new blog! And I'm first on it? Amazing!

-- Posted by TerryM on Thu, Nov 1, 2012, at 12:39 PM

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