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Social virtues linked to faith
Decline in religion may bring decline in civility, study warns
Wrong. Is it immoral to be willfully ignorant?
Wow News, reminds me of the bible.
Rr3, accepting the scientific theory of evolution does not negate one's belief in a god or even in christianity. There are millions of learned christians that understand that evolution is a fact. They have their own way of justifying that with their belief because they understand it is true. And then there are those religious people who cannot accept irrefutable facts because it conflicts with the literal interpretation of their holy book, and they usually follow a flock who's leader's believe fringe theories (like over the top conspiracy theories) to justify their refutation of evolution. The latter camp sounds like what you fall into rr3. You do realize that there are many religious people who have sufficient science education background to know that this scientific theory is indeed a fact, don't you? You can still believe without flaunting ignorance
Don't forget next Sunday is CEO Sunday. All CEO's need to be there.
CEO(Christmas and Easter Only)
If they believe the bible RT then evolution can't be true. How much evolution can happen in 6 days. We can give evolutionist trillions of years and it will still not be true. You are being lied to.
Just like all the other lies you, News and other buy into. Climate change, abortion is moral, homosexuality is moral, all lies and you think I am ignorant. When you don't know or don't believe the truth you can't discern what is a lie. Then they can make you believe whatever they want you to believe. Did you know there are invisible pink unicorns? If you don't believe it then prove that there aren't any.
Some things even I can't fix wtf. Here's your sign. Don't lose it.
I guess to answer your question wtf is I don't know. Maybe you could give me your perspective.
Thanks News I agree. I do believe we can be ignorant about facts that we are told, are really fiction. Without God what do we compare it to? Do we take man's word for it? We know man is subject to error. Does science always tell us the truth or do they try to fit an agenda? Without conducting the experiment personally we either take their word for it and believe it or not believe it. With God you always have the truth to compare it to. You don't have to accept man's word as gospel when usually it is not. God's character never changes and his word is always true, that take the guess work out of everything.
Whose truth? The bible was written by man so whose truth are you talking about?
The bible is the inspired word of God. God just used man to write his word. If God had penned it himself would it make it more believable? If you don't believe in God then you wouldn't believe the bible no matter who wrote it.
Still waiting for your perspective.
Inspired....2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Truth....Psalm 119:151 You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth
Free....John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Faith....Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Judge....Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
It's not going to matter if you don't believe it come judgement day. Believe and have eternal life with Christ or deny him and suffer eternal damnation. Either way eternity is a long time.
Rr3: "If they believe the bible RT then evolution can't be true. How much evolution can happen in 6 days. We can give evolutionist trillions of years and it will still not be true. You are being lied to."
Most educated christians do not believe the literal 6 days of creation. They understand that is allegory and could not possibly have happened. I believe people can be intelligent in some areas and extremely ignorant in others. Assuming you are intelligent in some areas (could be a bad assumption), your view on creationism puts you squarely in the camp of the latter on that issue, of which there is no possible debate.
Rr3: "Believe and have eternal life with Christ or deny him and suffer eternal damnation."
I believe the threat of eternal damnation is what really works for the children growing up. Nobody has been able to successfully portray what value there is in "eternal life with Christ". Eternal life here on earth, OK, now you are talking. But eternal life around someone that considers most of my pleasures a sin, count me out. RR3, tell us what your expectations of "eternal life with Christ" are?
News and RT you both believe that we will all come to the same outcome in the end? How do you come to that conclusion? You have to admit we are not likely to experience death and live to tell about it. Those that have, most experience something while their dead. Some experience out of body where they see theirself laying there, some a heaven or hell experience but most experience something. Why is that?
If we are all going to be rewarded equally when we die then where is the incentive to be good? If we all received the same pay no matter what we did anywhere in the world where would be the incentive to excel?
It is DMT that causes those effects.
Why do we have dreams? What causes them?
RR3: "If we are all going to be rewarded equally when we die then where is the incentive to be good? If we all received the same pay no matter what we did anywhere in the world where would be the incentive to excel?"
We've beat this dead horse over and over, so I guess you don't understand or believe my answer. Again, it is a huge insult to many of us to claim we need the Christian bible teachings to know how to be "good" (aka moral/ethical). Do you claim to be a better person than those of us who do not believe in Jesus?
RR3: "If we all received the same pay no matter what we did anywhere in the world where would be the incentive to excel?"
I have struggled with the answer to this because I find myself always motivated to excel in everything I do, regardless of "same pay" or not. I realize that "pay" does motivate most everyone, some more than others. The answer to this also defines whether one believes more in socialism versus capitalism. I've always professed to believe in capitalism, and the reward of money. I have come to realize that if the reward you are after is just money, then capitalism evolves into the mega corporations where cut throat immoral bastards rise to the top. Extreme capitalism promotes immoral actions to ones fellow man in my opinion. The answer must lie somewhere between the two, with the best system leaning towards capitalism. Perhaps the best way to throttle the cut throats bent on accumulating massive amounts of money is with the tax system. I believe a progressive tax system that put a cap on the amount of money you can make after which all goes to taxes to help reduce the misery of the poor would be beneficial. That would also take away the incentive to destroy the earth and your fellow human if hoarding massive amounts of money is your goal. Do you believe that if you only allowed Bill Gates to make a max of 5 million a year that he would no longer have incentive to build his company? We could call it compassionate capitalism :-)
News I may be back with both barrels at some point. For now a terse comment with a link is about it. I am not going to argue, but instead just point toward a potential answer when a question is raised. I reckon those who are truly searching may choose to pursue further any small lead I present. As for the rest I don't give a da*n. ;)
Also, it is spring here, and I am busy husbanding my quarter acre. Hands on, keyboard off, if you will. I employ the simplest of tools possible. It is good to stretch, and bend, to lift, and swing for reasons other than vanity. The change of focus is good at times. It generates different, though no less complex thoughts.
Thanks for your interest. I felt the same about you during your lull.
News/ND, I'm sure I am not saying anything new, but corporate America (in general) has "evolved" from a time when those that usually rose to the top had some ethics they practiced with their employees to the current CEO whose motivation is to turn a quick and large profit in the shortest period of time possible with no loyalty anyone beneath them, other than to use and/or discard them. Our personal ethics and morals are evolved for the long term (life) so that we understand it is in our interest to be honest over the long term. Virtually all large corporations display actions that display their greed, yet try to "double speak" to their employees telling them that quality and commitment will reward them. Only pursuing short term goals lack both quality and commitment. Venture capitalists require CEO's to return profit every year at the expense of both quality and integrity. Capitalism has been good for everyone only because the top executives had at least some idea of what was morally and ethically the best way to treat their workers. That has all but died away with corporate evolution. There will again be a time when the only way to stop the reign of terror from corporate America will be to organize uniions again, but I'm afraid the worker is far removed from the grit and determination our parents and grandparents had when they started to organize. It doesn't look good for our country as we spiral toward a third world makeover. I don't see much to be excited about. What is really sad is that a large number of average Americans are buying into the garbage those right wingers of which has captured the GOP are spreading and are naively helping them do it. To veer back onto track with this blog, the largest group who has bought into this GOP nonsense are the evangelicals.
Thank you ND. I am simply working toward a simpler existence. I don't have that big of a patch, lawn is included in the quarter acre.
New I would have to disagree that I am not a good person. We live in a fallen world. You are correct that we are born innocent but do we stay that way? and why don't we? If you have a child and you raise that child by giving them everything and do not give them any direction or discipline will they be good? I think we all can see examples of that and know what direction and discipline early in life help shape that person to what they will be later in life. We are only good because of the character we inherit from our creator. If we are done after this life then where is the value in this life to be good? Why would we care what others think of us? We don't like to take responsibility for our actions we like freedom from our actions. Examples are abortion is ok, gay lifestyle is ok, living together without marriage is ok, lying a little is ok, etc.
Thank you ND. "It's a Holy season for us, so going to take a few days break to concentrate on some new projects and re prioritize a few things in our own personal lives. We love what we do, but sometimes it's good to step away for awhile."
I chuckled when I read that from the website, talk about stirring kindred feelings.
I was unaware of the website, and have put it with my favorites.
Lying is ok when it is done by religions right?
Rr3: "We are only good because of the character we inherit from our creator."
How can you make this comment immediately after acknowledging parents need to give them direction and discipline for them to be good? You sound very wishy washy about how to define "good". We can all be good, but you are implying that just being good won't get you in you version of heaven, right? No matter what "good" we may do, then based on what you interpret the bible to mean "bad" (gay, abortion, living together without marriage, or lying) will override any and all "good" and send a person to eternal hell. Right wing religious people are so terribly frustrated I should feel sorry for them, except they want to push their beliefs that cause so much mental pain and frustration on others. I am so glad my children and grandchildren only have to endure the normal stress of living without the guilt trip imposed by a totally irrational religion. The flip side of Pascal's wager for religious people is that if you are wrong, you wasted your entire life with the burden of needless guilt.
'God Prefers Kind Atheists to Over Hateful Christians' http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/god-prefers-kind-atheists-over-hateful-...
Maybe the Huff & Puff Post should print an article on 'How kind Christians should treat Hateful Atheist'. My experience is there are more 'kind' Christians then 'hateful' ones. Most atheist become 'hateful' when debated because they put forth a negative existential truth claim. You can't prove it so it must be true, right? You would have to be everywhere in the universe at the same time to prove that God doesn't exist. Since they can't do they then God probably doesn't exist. Would you get on a plane if you were told that it was probably safe to fly?
News, no doubt the religious right does have characteristics of fascism. Look at Iran and other states run by religious leaders and you can see it. That is why we have to keep fighting those who want their brand of religion to be in government and education. Yes, we are leaning that way more and more. Great points!
Rr3: "Most atheist become 'hateful' when debated because they put forth a negative existential truth claim."
... when debated? Depends on style more than anything else. Sam Harris can cut ignorance to the bone and you wouldn't even know you were bleeding while Hitchens could peel away your ignorance as if you were being water boarded. Yes, the truth can seem hateful, especially when ignorance is exposed.
Rr3: "You can't prove it so it must be true, right?"
Illogical. Claiming something exists without proof warrants skepticism. You have every right to believe in ghosts and fairies, just keep that crap away from the rules that govern how we are to live our lives.
Rr3: " You would have to be everywhere in the universe at the same time to prove that God doesn't exist. Since they can't do they then God probably doesn't exist. Would you get on a plane if you were told that it was probably safe to fly?"
I can't make any sense out of this. Can you elaborate rationally?
Rr3, would you please try to put into words how your life will be with Christ after you die and you go to heaven? I don't believe anyone has ever put together anything half way convincing that makes it sound like eternal life with Christ will have any meaning or pleasure as we know it. Please just try to put into words? Thanks.
Nana if that was the purpose of the article they would not have had to mention Christianity or Atheism. So the point was to paint Christianity as bad vs. Atheism being kind. The point the church was attempting to make is also questionable but that is another point. The Huff & Puff Post is not pro Christian in case you missed that. I got the point perfectly did you?
Rr3 I guess that the Minister, and congregation of that Methodist Church which instead of reviling, and condemning Atheists, saw the good in some of them, i.e. kindness, and pointed out the flaws in some Christians, i. e. hatred, are by your lights, not Christian, thus condemned to hell.
Thankfully you are not sitting on that heavenly throne. If that were the case Christians would be so diminished in number that they would be just another insigificant, and strange minority with little say in world social order. Be careful what you pray for. ;)
rr3, waiting on your response on what you think heaven is going to be like?
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if not , I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:2
RT the bible is a good reference for you to find out what heaven is like. But if you don't believe then you will not understand it.
Heaven will be a beautiful place and all that is saved will have a place reserved there. Jesus told us that. We don't have to doubt. We don't have to wonder. We are assured. Heaven will be the absence of evil. We can't even imagine what that will be like. There will be no darkness. I believe we will have occupations to keep us busy. We can eat if we want to but will not have to.
30"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. ...
2 Peter 3:10--13
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But athe day of the Lord bwill come like a thief, in which cthe heavens dwill pass away with a roar and the eelements will be destroyed with intense heat, and fthe earth and 1its works will be 2burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 alooking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which bthe heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the celements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His apromise we are looking for bnew heavens and a new earth, cin which righteousness dwells.
I believe that we will live in the new heaven and earth. It will be more then we can ever imagine. That's why we don't have to worry about this earth we can't destroy it. The bible says it will be destroyed but not until it is time. I know you will have other questions RT please ask. I may not have the answer you like but I will have an answer. You seem really curious, find you a church and talk to other believers but always compare what they say to the bible. If it don't agree with the bible then it is not of God.
News it amazes me what people put on youtube and then even more amazing is that people actually listen to it and believe it. The great deceiver has a great tool here for deception.
Amazing depiction of why we celebrate Easter.
As we remember today why Christ died for us let's remember those that are lost that they may come to know him. Amen.
Well what do you see it as News? I do trust you have your own ideas unless your sole purpose is to mock mine.
B.I.B.L.E.--Basic Information Before Leaving Earth
1 Corinthians 2:9
Wisdom from the Spirit
9 But, as it is written,"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him" -
The New Heaven and the New Earth
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
News I don't see the discrepancy from what I referenced in Mark. I truly believe that John saw heaven but to put it into words for us to fully understand may not be possible.
Do you place your faith in Thunderfoot or the bible? I am not sure what bible he is reading out of but you need to check Revelation 21 and 22 and I cannot find that description. If you find the translation and scripture he is reading from then I will be happy to check it out.
WHAT IS HEAVEN LIKE?
A Heaven to Seek (Revelation 21:1-22:5)
News: "And you know my beliefs...Irish pub, heart of Sydney, attractive barmaids, good beer, ect."
I'm with you News... if that is Hell, then I'll see you there by choice :-)
That link on the description of Heaven in the bible is really quite unappealing. Sounds like you end up in servitude in the bible's interpretation of Heaven. The point is, there is nothing appealing about Heaven in any description I have heard; there is only the threat of eternal Hell that is painful. So, given the choice of eternal Heaven (like kissing your sister :-), or immense pain forever, what choice does one have? At least the Muslims get to be surrounded by virgins -- oops, do they have to remain virgins? If so, another form of torture in my book LOL!
Rr3: " Heaven will be a beautiful place and all that is saved will have a place reserved there. Jesus told us that. We don't have to doubt. We don't have to wonder. We are assured. Heaven will be the absence of evil. We can't even imagine what that will be like. There will be no darkness. I believe we will have occupations to keep us busy. We can eat if we want to but will not have to."
All you say rr3 is that it is a beautiful place and we are assured. I'd like to be assured I can have a cup of coffee in the morning, watch a sunrise and sunset, and be with all those I enjoy company with on earth. However, I'm not assured they will be in Heaven. If all I get to hear are the extremely religious spouting scripture, I'm afraid that is way too boring.
"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. ..."
No one knows; just what I thought. You are banking your entire life on earth about something no one knows. I'm sure you enjoy some things on this earth, and I sincerely hope you do not refrain from any of them because you spend way too much time trying to get to a place "no one knows, not even th0se (beautiful large busted) angels?
Rr3: "I believe that we will live in the new heaven and earth. It will be more then we can ever imagine."
Sounds like a Jim Jones promise to me. We are going on a vacation to a beautiful place. I can't describe what it will be like, but trust me, if you don't go you will be in eternal suffering.
Rr3: "I may not have the answer you like but I will have an answer. You seem really curious, find you a church and talk to other believers but always compare what they say to the bible. If it don't agree with the bible then it is not of God."
It is not that you don't have an answer I like, it is that you, or nobody, seems to be able to answer convincingly that it will be a place I can enjoy for eternity. Perhaps one should just try to make their own Heaven on earth and forget about fearing eternal damnation as a reason to choose to follow the bible's promise of "no one knows"?
RR3, your last link you provided has quotes that backed up what Thunderfoot quoted. Here is direct statements from YOUR link:
"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Revelation 4:8-11)"
RR3, YOU provided that linke.
RT one thing we do know is we are not assured of anything on this earth, we don't know if we will be here tomorrow. The only assurance we can have is a place in heaven if we believe. But belief is not the only requirement. After we die we will all be believers there will be no atheist, all will believe but for many it will be too late. Nothing I say will convince you, nothing anyone else will say will convince you only God can. God has to choose you. Man do not seek God, many will hear but few will believe. I don't know whom God has chosen but everyone deserves the opportunity to hear. I just pray that you are one of the chosen and God will enter your life, it could be through a friend or acquaintance, it could be through a tragedy but if you are chosen it will happen and your life will change and you will wish you hadn't wasted all those years not believing. God Bless!!
PS..This ought to give you some new quotes.
No news I am far from being alone. There are many of us but we don't make the front page or the evening news. Good videos, not my flavor of music but was good nonetheless.
News Christians don't have a desire to destroy the planet anymore then the Republicans want Grandma to eat dog food. The funny thing is the media tells you this and you believe it. No proof, no peer review. The bible says this heaven and earth will be destroyed but not until God allows it. We can speculate that it will be a nuclear holocaust but we don't know. All I know is that it will happen and prophecy in the bible will be fulfilled, all of it.
Rr3: "I just pray that you are one of the chosen and God will enter your life, it could be through a friend or acquaintance, it could be through a tragedy but if you are chosen it will happen and your life will change and you will wish you hadn't wasted all those years not believing. God Bless!!"
Plenty to quote and respond to, but only taking one absurdity this time :-) If I somehow decide there is a god, I would have somehow triggered some chemical reaction in the area of the brain where you and many glossy-eyed religious people get your irrational feelings from. I don't see that happening RR3. But if it does, my kids will have me certified insane, which would be true.
RR3, would it be true that you were introduced to either the Baptist or Catholic church from a very young age by parents that were very religious as well? Also, during the course of your life, have you ever had serious doubt about the existence of Jesus or a god, and if so, what time of your life?
Altruism observed in infants as young as fifteen months: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/infants-fairness-justice-psychological-...
News: Many Christians are waiting for the Rapture --Just how many news? I don't think you have talked to many Christians to lump us all into that category.
RT I am glad you think of my quotes as absurdities. Coming from and atheist that is a compliment. You don't need to decide there is a God to have a chemical reaction to be irrational. Thank you for quoting me though to help spread the word.
Being Baptist of Catholic is irrelevant. Am I a born again Christian? Yes I was saved at a young age and did stray from God for a time in my life. Did I ever doubt God's existence? No I always knew God was there and later found he patiently awaited my return. God is patient with you also RT.
There are not any like that around these blogs are there ND? LOL
There are other terms like imprinting and brainwashing.
Not entirely true News. I didn't become a Christian until I accepted Jesus. I wasn't born Christian or raised Christian. Were you born Catholic? Or were you a born again Catholic?
I guess than you could say that the women who's home was broken in by two armed thug would be an advocate for NRA's cultre war.
Weren't you the one that decided to be ex-Catholic or do your parents still make decisions for you?
Were you baptized(total immersion) or sprinkled at 2 months old? What was the purpose of it?
News was it what the church said or what the bible said that led to that brilliant conclusion?
News at 10 years old boys are just starting to figure out what girls are but you were able to figure out that there is no God and the bible was completely false. Wow genius!!!!
Isn't it also ironic that by 10 years old most kids have figured out there is also no Santa Claus? Wow indeed!
Good one SC!!
And how old are you wtf?????
Smok'n: "See, rr3? Science does have some answers I would never have accepted as truth."
Can you name any answers that science states as truths (laws of physics) that are accepted across the mainstream of science that you "would never have accepted as truth" (assume you mean that you "will never accept as truth")?
Rr3: "My opinion on gun ownership is this; Every adult in America who is not in prison or in a mental hospital should carry a loaded pistol on their person at all times -- with extremely severe penalties for any crime, no matter how small the crime -- committed while they are in possession of the weapon."
Then the follow-up question is what do you think about the "stand your ground" laws that have cropped up in several states, and particular the Florida law that Zimmerman will undoubtedly use to try and get his case dismissed?
Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell on Q&A (in Austalia mate :-) April 10, 2012:
I am old enough not to believe in Santa Clause or any other such nonsense.
Your post reflected a much younger age. Just wonderin'
Just for fun, how old do you think I am?
Well let's see wtf. I get some of the same answers from my 4 year old grandson but he can't type yet. Seriously I would guess you to be about 50 give or take, but who's counting. Just for fun.
I'm 49. Congratulations, that's as close to being right as I've ever seen you come.
Rr3: "Well let's see wtf. I get some of the same answers from my 4 year old grandson but he can't type yet."
Your young grandson must be a very sharp young man. Let's hope he is allowed to think for himself and not brainwashed too early. Or, how about a meaningless baptism, which I had at a very young age. That seemed crazy then as a young child, and even more ridiculous now. It really depends on how much of an independent thinker you are as to what age you can break the impact of brainwashing. RR3, are your children all as extremely religious as you are? By the way, I'm well above Nana's age; I might be the oldest one on this blog.
News, enjoyed the Breakfast Club clips... brings back old memories and it is a fun classic oldie that will be enjoyed by all ages for some time. I would have guessed Nana to be late 50's or early 60s's mainly because she exhibits a lot of "hippie" type ideas. But, there are young hippies today, at least with the "peace/love" attitude, and it is a wonderful thing. Christ might not have been the son of god, but for sure if he existed, he was an old hippie at heart :-)
News, words are in the ear of the beholder :-) and I'm gues'n "hippy" will be a complement to ND, but if not, then I will apologize. As you know, Hippies were known to be a very peaceful movement, against much of "the establishment".
I peer in here every now and then, and when I do, I'm reminded of how many friendly folks I haven't seen lately, like (in alphabetical order):
AFWife, BNB, John Q, KF, NB, ND, OKR, Upsedaisy, White Tornado
I know I've left out others, not deliberately, of course, but to all of you I trust you're well. :)
Where do you get that Christians hate gays out of that News?
there are many christians - those who believe in the teachings of jesus of nazareth - who try to follow his teachings the best they can ... there are also many "christians" who give more attention to the law of the old testament than to the grace and love of the new testament ... that's where jesus and the pharisees differed ... you might also notice that in the scriptures - jesus didn't speak out against those who may have been living in what that culture would have called sin - he instead reserved his most vitriolic words for those who thought they were "right with god" - i guess i am just saying - don't throw all believers into the same pot - there are differences. ... and by the way - many "hippies" were "seekers" who ultimately found the answers they sought in the teachings of jesus ... just sayin'
You are dead on with that post Zeke. Good to see you back here.
thanks okr - good to be back ...
Zeke: "i guess i am just saying - don't throw all believers into the same pot - there are differences"
There are BIG differences indeed. I would venture to say that the vast majority fit my definition of "good". And WE don't have to agree on everything. It is mainly the right wing evangelicals that want to push their beliefs on others (government and education) that are the problem.
So news do you believe Christians hate gays the same way that you hate God? You folks do hate God. Don't try to tell me any different you, Nana, RT all hate God.
Where do you get that Christians hate gays News?
RT you don't have to lie to us you do put all believers in the same pot. They believe in a God and you don't so according to you they are irrational. You are the only rational one aren't you? Kind of like the Messiah of rationality. I bow to the King of Rationality. Amen.
rr3 good is neither a synonym, nor an antonym of irrational. One may be good, but irrational, or bad, and rational. Your statement regarding what RT said is illogical. Hence a Christian may be good as RT stated, but remain irrational. A Christian may also be bad, and irrational. Same with anyone else.
RT's statement was logical, but your perception was not. Think about it.
By the way I have meant to say this for a long time. The reason I do not capitalize your name is because you do not. If you did, I would. It is not because I disrespect you. It does give me a grammatical fit when I start a sentence with it. ;)
Well news I am not surprised that you would be shocked by the truth. It was not a petty personal insult it was the truth plain and simple. Nothing personal about it.
Okr I think you missed the point but well I am not surprised. Also I could care less if you capitalize my name or not. I really don't believe there is any respect that is lost or gained from it. Have your fit if you want.
No you missed the point rr3. RT said there were good Christians. He has also said there are bad Christians. That is not, as you say, putting them all in the same pot. There is the good pot of Christians, and the bad pot of Christians, which he also has repeatedly said is much the smaller pot.
Which part of that do you not understand, or is it just that you choose to not understand?
You have once again painted yourself into a corner. You are saying RT is a liar, or denying he said the words he did.
Okr you are telling me RT can say there are good Christians when all of you hate what they believe in. I don't think so but then you think that is rational so I rest my case.
One comment was that Jesus was "only human", which does put all "believers" into the same pot. THAT is one way to read this conversation. Two smaller pots within that bugger pot might be, a group of 'good Christians' and another group of 'bad Christians'...so it's all in how you break it down.
Qustion: What is 'good' or 'bad'? Who decides?
rr3 you use the word hate in your posts more often than all we atheists, secular humanists, deists combined. Hate, hate, hate, in post after post. Are you sure that it is not you who is the hater? You seem consumed by the concept of hate, though ascribing it constantly to all others who are different. You may need some serious shrink time. ;)
Glad to be back News. :)
Hatred corrodes the vessel in which it is stored-Chinese proverb.
rr3: "RT you don't have to lie to us you do put all believers in the same pot." Seems to me rr3 that what is really true is that you put all non-believers in the same pot. You don't see any difference in any of us, when in fact there are a myriad of differences in each of us.
Your oversimplification may feed your base emotions what they need, but it does nothing for your rationality, credibility, or understanding of the diversity of homo sapiens sapiens. If "we" are all the same as you postulate, would it not be true that you, Zeke, and Cheetah are all the same? Of course that is also ridiculous. I thought looking at it from that perspective might give you insight despite your bizzaro world view. ;)
I'll repost what I entered last night. I don't see anything offensive that would cause deletion, but somehow it was lost. Anyway, this is a repost from last night:
Rr3: "RT you don't have to lie to us you do put all believers in the same pot."
Thanks OKR and News for pointing out the flaws in rr3's logic claiming I am lying, which happens often. I think he is just using the wrong word, because lying implies intent to deceive, where I think he believes I have been inconsistent in my judgment concerning religious people. Indeed, believing in a deity is irrational for me, but how a person acts on an irrational belief is what I see as important. As OKR points out, you can be good or bad with or without religion. However, some people's actions regarding their religious belief is bad BECAUSE of their actions in regard to their belief.
Rr3: "They believe in a God and you don't so according to you they are irrational."
Yes, as I said, I believe (that) to be an irrational belief. So is walking under a ladder and other superstitious beliefs, of which most people entertain to a degree. That does not make them/us irrational in all areas.
Rr3: "You are the only rational one aren't you?"
No. Most of the participants of this blog exhibit a high degree of rationality on most issues discussed. You, on the other hand, rarely justify anything from what I consider a rational viewpoint. Continuous quotes from the bible that rarely address the point do not constitute a rational view.
Rr3: "Kind of like the Messiah of rationality. I bow to the King of Rationality. Amen."
Now those are conflicting (irrational) statements, but the sarcasm highlights the point you are trying to make. I am honored, but not worthy :-)
Welcome ChickenPotPie (ummm, makes me hungry)! I don't recall seeing any prior posts by you, so I assume this is your first postings on this blog? Also, sounds like another voice of badly needed reason. Perhaps the non-theist community is vastly underestimated in size and more and more people of reason are finding they are not at all alone in their thirst for truth? Stay thirsty my friend ! - couldn't resist :-)
SomewhereOutThere: "One comment was that Jesus was 'only human', which does put all "believers" into the same pot."
First, welcome to this blog as well. I look forward to you hopefully accepting the challenge of taking a very close look into the reasons you may have for believing in a god or prophet of god, and that you are open to accepting the fact that had you been born in many other parts of the world that you would not be a Christian? So first, is my assumption that you are a Christian correct?
Yes, I made the comment that jesus was "only human". That really doesn't put ALL the believers in the same pot, however. It is true that only a minority of humans on this planet believe jesus is the son of god, let alone a trinity. You could have just as easily been raised a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or in one of many world religions of which christianity is only one. There is no valid evidence to substantiate the belief that jesus was anything but a human like the rest of us.
RT I am glad you seen the sarcasm in my post and that is was not personal. You may be more rational then I originally thought. If you influence someone to believe something that is not true even though you believe it to be true, is that lying?
Literal interpretation of those verses is screw the honest, and poor. Of course it it is the Christian Fundamentalists who interepret the Bible literally. Scary, those literalists.
There are other interpretations of the verses with a more positive message. Messages taken from them by moderate Christians is a whole nuther thing. Just wanted to say that because I DO NOT BELIEVE ALL CHRISTIANS ARE THE SAME. ;)
The next question though, is how clear is the message of the Bible when all, but literalists must modify the direct message to accept it and still feel morally comfortable in a Christian skin? Which in turn raises the question is each Christian at base, a Church unto themself, especially when each individual human has a different perception than any other? And if that is the case, how can there be a common literal interpretation of the Bible?
Just wanted to go around, and around, in a different direction. Gotta love the circle game. ;)
You seem to be good at it okr and news and nana and rt and wtf, etc. etc. It is really amusing to read.
But what say you on the parable of the talents rr3? What do you take from it?
Rr3: "If you influence someone to believe something that is not true even though you believe it to be true, is that lying?"
That is an obvious "NO". And it works both ways. Did you have something specific in mind where you believe I or you might be influencing someone to believe something that is not true? I'd say the probability is that you are the one influencing an untruth, but again, that is not lying. It is just misinformation.
The bible has so many contradictions that it requires lavish interpretations to make it square with what most people know is right and wrong intuitively. It's like a recipe that has some good ingredients, and then a bunch of crap that you know just don't taste good and would ruin the whole product. Yet people are so brainwashed from a young age that they are happy with making excuses for it. To live a "good" life, make your own recipe!
How do you think jesus would feel about the "stand your ground" laws that many states have today?
UPI: Belief in God Found In Decline
I say, thank Heaven! :-)
I wouldn't count on that. People are actaully quite stupid and even more gullible.
In reference to all Christians being the same, or not, I think in order to be a Christian one must follow and practice the teachings of Christ (Christians = little Christs). Too many "believers" take the whole of the scriptures and try to wrap their Christianity around it, better yet, to wrap it around their Christianity. What many fail to understand is that the Old Testament pointed toward the coming Christ and told the history of his ancestry, but it did not teach about Chirstianity, since there was no Christ to follow. To follow Christ means to know his teachings and to try to emulate them as closely as possible. ... Forget the tribal wars and the judgements of the OT and think about the "new covenant" and the spiritual kingdom that Jesus taught about. You know - love your neighbor and all that.
GentleBen well said. That is the approach I took when I was a Christian. To capsulize; If it didn't come from Christ, or wasn't about Christ, it had nothing to do with being Christian. Before I left the Church I had come to the conclusion that the old testament was nothing more than a literary buffet, much of which was unpalatable, though there were some items of incredible sweetness, or other intense flavor.
Good to see you posting here.
Good point ND. To my way of thinking you could take the important parts (direct Jesus stuff) of the New Testament put it in a pamphlet, follow it, and be one hell of a good Christian. The rest is extraneous, and even worse, twists, and obscures the simple truth of Jesus. In my opinion Paulist Doctrine, for instance did Christianity more harm than good.
Yup that's the one Nana, the dude who penned Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon while in prison. It is ironic that centuries later Jim Baker, et al, were sent to prison for following those instructions.
News: "I would predict all religious belief will be a thing only read about in history books a hundred years from now."
I'm more optimistic as I believe the Internet will open awareness at an exponential rate and all those individuals harboring legitimate doubt about all those around them believing in a heavenly father will awaken to the real physical world. I predict in the next 10 years the "religious right" will be relegated to the status of a cult, and will no longer have legitimate political influence. However, cultish beliefs will still be around for many more years in all their various forms. The Muslim world has shown how the internet can dramatically bring ideas together to change their world (not all for good yet), and they too will start to understand that their prophet was no more than a human with hallucinogenic ideas. Meanwhile, we still have to put up with the efforts of the Santorums of the world trying to bring their delusions to government and education. I don't think they have long, however.
Gentle Ben: "Forget the tribal wars and the judgments of the OT and think about the "new covenant" and the spiritual kingdom that Jesus taught about. You know - love your neighbor and all that."
I couldn't agree with you more on the "love your neighbor" part, but that is not just christ's way, it is Gandhi, Buda, Nana, News, OKR, me, all of us with inherent respect for our fellow man, and animals for that matter. However, the problem I have is that the OT cannot be "forgotten". It is there, with all its horrible, hateful, and inhumane actions and cannot be just written off as it reflects on the ridiculousness of following the Christian religion. Don't feel all alone, however, as the Koran is filled with similar outrageous teachings that anyone with common sense could recognize if they were not brainwashed from childhood.
OKR: "To my way of thinking you could take the important parts (direct Jesus stuff) of the New Testament put it in a pamphlet, follow it, and be one hell of a good Christian."
So, why not follow Gandhi or Buda instead? Better yet, let their lives inspire you to always do good, but be your own person and don't "follow" anybody?
News: "I don't care what a theist believes as long as he/she doesn't create laws forcing me to conform to that belief."
Amen bro! Just a little more explicit request: keep it out of our government and out of our science classes and totally out of public education, unless that is, you are teaching philosophy or a history of religion class.
New from downunder: Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins, leaders in biology and cosmology. If you love science, you'll enjoy this: http://youtu.be/q0mljE9K-gY
RT: "Better yet, let their lives inspire you to always do good, but be your own person and don't "follow" anybody?"
I think that is exactly where several of us who post on this blog are coming from.
Should we be the Saline County Chapter of Free Thinkers? ;)
really? most of the time I think Eric should rename the whole blog "rr3's personal pulpit"...
-- Posted by NanaDot on Fri, Apr 20, 2012, at 12:15 AM
I like it Nana since I seem to be the only one with the truth that post consistently on here. Oh there have been good Christians post on here and there have been some that claim to be Christian that have posted on here but they don't last too long.
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
There are a few on here that are particularly good at deception.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Thanks for the endorsement Nana, boy am I fired up now.
rr3: "There are a few on here that are particularly good at deception."
Oh boy rr3, you know I gotta ask, who among us has the Devil whispering in our ears?
Dlkes you still out there? :)
More then you would know okr. I'm glad you brought up dlkcs now there's a good one.
Key word here Nana 'consistent'. Think about it a while you'll get it.
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the World." John 16:33
We don't have to be confused. This world can be confusing, we can be assured in Jesus we can have peace no matter how confusing or chaotic this world can be. We are also assured of eternal life with him not eternal damnation. May God bless all of you. Read God's word today so if you believe you can experience peace.
Dear God, I am doing the best I can. Really. Frank
This is a prayer said by a young child. They believe who they trust with all their hearts. How many times though as adults we have used this phrase. I have had employees tell me this when their performance is lacking. But is it really true? When we set in judgement before an almighty God will we say 'God, I did the best I could. Really'. Will that be good enough? Do you want to live life doing the best you can or doing the best you can for Jesus? Do you want to set in judgement realizing that you didn't do your best? Be assured with Jesus you can do the best you can. Halleluiah! Amen.
Give God the glory this morning.
Glory to you--Aaron Shust
= = = = = = = = = =
Besides brainwashing with fear of eternal damnation, the bible went to great lengths to try and warn followers to not attempt any critical thinking. See, the bible warned of all this science and logical thinking and for all of us to not listen to any of it or we'll go to hell. It is words from the devil and you musn't listen to it. And the sad thing is that so many people "buy into" all this malarkey.
Rr3: "This world can be confusing, we can be assured in Jesus we can have peace no matter how confusing or chaotic this world can be."
I really hate to break this to you rr3, but you've put a very peaceful person in the position of sounding ignorant, which I do not believe. All you have to do is substitute the word "ignorance" for "Jesus" in that sentence, and I would agree with that statement.
Rr3: "Do you want to live life doing the best you can or doing the best you can for Jesus?"
RR3, did you really tell your employees this?
Aaron Shust... enjoyed the music. Almost all messages regarding praise and thanks to god work really well if you substitute either Nature or The Universe for God. We are all in awe of the universe and Nature (biology).
My what a glorious morning! It's so nice to not be in church.
Just wondering rr3, don't know why, but did you like "Church Lady" that used to be on Saturday Night Live?
Terrific ND. A lot of villages only had one free thinker, that is until they ran her/him out of town.
Isn't that special...Could it be...SATAN?
How many televangelists exposures should it take to alert people that it is ALL one big scam. ALL, meaning religion... you know, that area of belief without one shred of evidence but yet so many car salesmen (I mean preachers) and their flock claiming they really know something supernatural that the rest of us don't (but they do). To go thru life so gullible is so sad. RR3, wake up and smell the roses!
RT I would have to agree with you on the televangilists. Money does funny things to people when that is their love instead of God. Also it is sad that so many people are gullible but it is not the Christians. Even you could pretend to be a Christian and some would believe you.
We are all in awe of the universe and Nature (biology).
-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Apr 22, 2012, at 8:47 AM
Why are we in awe of something that just happened by random chance? No big deal, right!
What Nana are you saying you don't believe me? That's understandable though because you would have no way of knowing or understanding. That doesn't keep me from trying for there are many just like you. It saddens me that people hardens their heart because of past experiences that keeps them from seeing. I will continue to pray for you though and God Bless.
Nana: "harden my heart" against what? roflmao --
Is roflmao a kinky version of rolmfao? :-)
That is an excellent song news. Thanks for sharing.
That's understandable though because you would have no way of knowing or understanding.
Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 23, 2012
Now that Mitt's the GOP candidate for sure, anyone here consider the Mormon religion too "far out" to even consider him? You all know they beieve in magic underware, literally don't you?
Enjoy these Mormons being "owned" by epic black guy:
This explains much......
Perhaps the moral of the story is "never trust things designed by religous engineers."
Or maybe "Athiests make the best economists."
Also stumbled onto this which explains some of the behavior I have experienced in dealing with some of the religious folks I know.
I have questioned how some of them can rationalize their behavior and now see that apparently they can't help themselves.
From this I learned that ego trumps ethics, regardless of your view on the "Supreme Being."
A former Marshallite in the same genre' will be featured artist in 2013....with his art.
See you on the 19th.
Some folks, News Across, whether politics, or religion, are motivated by the fear factor. If you can't feel the need, fear forces a similar reaction. We humans, what complex creations we are. It seems there is more than one way to the same result.
Some brains are hard wired toward compassion, which prompts altruistic action. If that type of hard wiring is missing, there is put in place a compensatory device, a hypersensitive fear center in the brain. It is like a patch, not perfect, not as good as the original, but it, at least some of the time, leads to the correct altruistic response. Without altruism our species would not survive. Just a rumination. ;)
Fear Factor Origin
Long, long ago a few people crept from their caves, and settled in a fertile valley. They learned that the seeds that gave them sustenance came back every year. Over time they learned that they could place the seeds in other similar places where they would also be fruitful, and multiply. They learned that even more sustenance, and at times even bounty, could be produced, if they all worked together. At this point, like the seeds, the valley people also became more fruitful, and multiplied. They understood that a failure to work together would be their undoing. They refused to tolerate those who would not, and cast them out. Those so isolated fled back to the caves, and reverted to their former catch as catch can life style.
They, and the other scattered cave dwellers observed the valley people thrive, but did not understand why, as at the core of their beings they could not feel the emotion that had developed within the valley people, which was the base of the valley folks' success. So they continued their feast, or famine way of life. Not surprisingly, due to the instability of their ways, fear was a constant in their lives. They fought, they fled, but no matter, fear still raised its head. They began to wonder at the cause of their misfortune, the concept of punishing retribution occurred to them.
After all, they knew that they, unimpeded by altruism would when angry at another, strike out, and harm that other. It was no great leap to conceive that there were forces that they could not understand, that became angry, and harmed them. In a pantheistic manner they supplicated themselves. Whether wind, or flood; burning sun or ice, their mortal fear caused them to prostrate themselves before the immediate cause of their catastrophe, and beg forgiveness. Still it did no good, the ravages continued. They knew that the valley people thrived, when they did not. They concluded that the valley way of life must be pleasing to these Gods. They determined that they must emulate the valley people to please the Gods. And so they did, though constantly looking over their shoulders in fear to see if they were doing it right. Fathers beat their sons, who did not obey the edict to all work together; their fear drove them to kill the recalcitrant, for the wrath of the Gods was to be avoided at any cost.
More millenniums passed , and the more devoted fearful ones became to every outward appearance to be just as the original valley dwellers. As they were more successful they multiplied, and the less devoted languished. The fearful began to mingle successfully with the original valley people, for their differences were not such as to cause the failure of a cooperative effort. Now we intermingle throughout society. The genetically true descendants of the original valley people can not understand why the others are so fearful, and unable to just do it without being told to by their Gods. The genetically true descendants of the later movers to the valley can not believe that anyone can just do it without the fear of Gods driving their cooperation. Each thinks the other is lesser, in act, and deed. Somehow we manage to all get along, more, or less, most of the time.
Oh yes News the dread Chickenistas, I have heard somewhere about their murky past, and ominous presence. Could it have been from you? I appreciate your trepidation. ;)
John Fullbright: Satan & St. Paul
I miss the haranguing, the hollering, and hissing.
Where are you now, you who have gone missing?
Come back now, come on back now don't fritter.
Don't let it beat you, you just can not be a quitter.
With hills still to climb, mountains still to crest,
you can't yet be sure that you've given your best.
Come back now, hurry on back, and don't diddle,
maybe some how we can understand the big riddle.
This occurred to me tonight, I reckon it could apply to many things, religion, love, politics, but then maybe you can take any one of those three; religion, love, or politics, and there is always some elements of the other two wrapped up in it. ;)
I hope some of you folks, especially you Christian folks, come back to this blog. I give you fair warning though that I will get the last word. I have prepared a final post, and requested that my partner post it here upon my permanent withdrawal. Don't bother replying to it, that is unless you believe one of two things; that I am still around in some spirit form, or that I have faked my death. I can't say for sure which is the more likely. ;)
Good stuff News, as John Fullbright reminds me of the young Bob Dylan, Ladell Mclin reminds me of Hendrix.
Could there be one gene that forms the super religious, or the super skeptic? Are there sub populations that manifest a particularly religious zealousness? If so, could it be that both parents possession of such a gene assure that all, or only some of their children will be alike? Finally, do we place too much emphasis on nurture, at the detriment of nature?
A curious finding: http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/07/11581598-genetic-mutation-may-expl...
we're still here ... some of us have jobs and churches and families, etc. ... and the back and forth between hard-line believers and hard-line non-believers leaves little room for anyone who wants to make sense of the whole thing.
Zeke I reckon I am one of those categorized as a hard liner, but I have to say in my defense that I enjoy posts from non-hard liners such as you, and several others. Rest assured that I do respect you, your beliefs, and those of others like you. I am not so vain, and pompous that I for even a minute believe that I have all the answers. I hope to see more posts from you soon.
Zeke, I think you might enjoy the music of this young genius. You too Cheetah, and perhaps you Gentle Ben. I know that News Across enjoys this artist. My point is that as far apart as we some times are, we all are mired TOGETHER in the human condition, or rejoicing in same, depending on the moment. ;)
Rr3 give a listen buddy.
Nana what are you up to?
JF songs; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ttihm4DL-s
Oh but news the evidence is there you just have to acknowledge it. But I'm preaching to the choir, you already know that. Thanks.
Evidence of a giant?
Hey r (if I may call you by your first name) good to see you back. I thought that it may be you had been busy smashing, and tearing up all the graven images in your household; or perhaps consulting with orthodox Amish as to how to accomplish the task. ;)
There may have been a rather large logger known as Paul Bunyan, and perhaps he owned a large ox of bluish tint, that sounds possible. Where that story goes from there is pure speculation, though I hear that curious people are at the present poking through huge piles of what they believe may be fossilized bovine excrement in an attempt at validating the stories. ;)
The point of course of my last comment is that we can dig, and dig to try to prove the allegorical stories in the Bible, but it is pointless B. S. It is better that we accept them for their wisdom, and not frantically dig for evidence to support something that was never the intent of the stories. Ultimately strong faith in the rightness of the big picture is the basis for a healthy Christian belief. In fact a fascination with proving the physical realities of illustrative stories may be evidence of timorous belief on the part of those who engage in such activity.
Well said, and Amen. :)
...and there ain't NOBODY better'n us at jumping right into killing wars without even discussin' it. From Colin Powells about to be released book: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/colin-powell-book_n_1503592.html?icid=m...
i'll jump in just for a moment ... one of my favorite parts of the david/goliath story (if you believe it is true) is that the young man got tired of his people hiding/running from the challenge ... picked up a few stones ... and ran right at the giant ... not from it ... i believe we can all (christian or not) learn a good life lesson from that.
I agree Zeke that all can learn life lessons from such tales. Whether one thinks them just that, tales, or believes them to be literal gospel the message is there, and that intended message will be grasped (at least I hope so) by the majority.
The problem with allegory, metaphor, and such is that they are ripe for deviations in interpretation. I think some people can only appreciate literal message, that is their brains are wired to understand only the literal, and that they are a minority.
Okr flattering me with insults will get you nowhere.
Whatchoo talkin about r? You goin all paranoid in your dotage? ;)
r I know you will not believe this, but I enjoy your posts, they are catalystic.
Do you mean 'catalytic' okr? I couldn't find the word you used!
Why would you assume that I have any graven images?
Pick one r: A. I just made it up. B. It was a typo. C. I am just a lousy speller. D. I am super-critical, and just thought it should be spelled that way. E. I just wanted to give you something to hang your hat on for a change. F. None of the preceding.
I learned a long time ago that no matter what I say you will disagree. Now if you answer at all you won't be able to disagree with what I said. Gotcha. ;)
...that is if you give a direct answer to a direct question. I also realize from experience that is no certainty. ;)
I just assumed that you might have some figurines, photos, or something like that, sort of graven images.
Note: comma after that is a typo.
Why would you assume that?
Now okr I have agreed with you on occasion. You are not being fair with your assessment.
Ten Reasons Why Liberals Hate Christians
You all verify my points perfectly. Thank you.
Interesting that you would entertain the idea that Jesus was a liberal. You hate what he stands for and the people that believe in him. If he were liberal shouldn't you be worshipping him? Just curious'
Only the brainwashed "worship" anything.
One can learn from, and strive to live by, the teachings of Jesus.
Any entity that demands my worship automatically looses my respect.
SD if it was a demand you would have no choice. That is the beautiful thing about Jesus, you have a choice.
On the other hand liberalism demands worship. I can see that. It is very obvious. There is no choice.
Got you didn't they?
Your'e the eptiome of modern christianity. Mean spirited and predictable.
Thank you wtf at least I am just not tickling your ears. This happens when truth is revealed so your response is very predictable. So I will consider it a compliment that I am doing it right.
Truth? What truth?
Do you think it's very Christian to put up a gate across someone's drive way to keep everyone off of your property even though it's been like that for well over 30 years? Causing someone to have to use only one of their driveways? A bit spiteful huh?
Beautyqkay get an attorney to check out the doctrine of repose for you, or check it out yourself. This may be easily remedied in a legal manner.
Beautyquay: In some jurisdictions if a situation is of long standing, is in repose, it may under some circumstances not be changed.
For example, ingress and egress easements may govern the use of a shared driveway or the use of a private road to reach one's property.
This is not to be considered legal advice, it is just some questions you may wish to ask a local member of the bar.
Happy Mother's Day! To all the mothers out there. May God bless you with children that remember you not only on your special day but throughout the year.
If that was the case news it doesn't sound like it would be very happy.
I am older now. I see the waters rushing down the always dry branch,
the waters that exposed the sand stone boulders on its shoulders.
I am older now. I can not see the initials engraved in the sandstone a scant sixty years ago.
If we can legislate who you can be attracted to, the we should be able to legislate which, if any religion you may be allowed to practice.
I believe news we will find who you want to portray as representing Christianity are not Christian after all. But then how would you know? Christians don't do the things that you like to claim Christians do but as an unbeliever you cannot know. Satan wants you to believe it though and he is not meeting any resistance. He is saying good job my loyal and faithful servant.
In your opinion news who or whom(Christians) is trying to stifle freedom and liberty in America. So far you only make general statements to lump all Christians in a big pile. Please be specific or would you rather do to them like Hitler did the Jews. Maybe you missed your calling.
Religion = Santa Claus for grown-ups.
News Hitler was not Christian. Hate to burst your bubble there mate. As a Christian I am qualified based on a person's actions. You mention the Roman Catholic Church but they are not Christian they are apostate. So maybe it is good you are an ex-Catholic. Muslim is not Christian either. Besides all the freedoms you mention that Christians are trying to take away, your liberal mates are doing a good job of accomplishing what you want to blame Christians for. You want to take freedoms away because of your liberal ideas and who you support and vote for not the Christians. I guess it is easy to blame the Christians for your own actions. Pitiful!
I would challenge any Catholic that believes in official Roman Catholic doctrine explain why they are Christian. There are a few but many are not and are being told a lie by the church.
I say we ban all religions.
If There Is No God
"Without God there is no good and evil."
"Without God, there is no objective meaning to life."
"If there is no God, the human being has no free will."
Five Reasons to Oppose Gay Marriage
"Gay marriage is not about "rights;" it's about special privileges."
Chruches don't pay taxes, would you consider that "special privileges"? Hypocrisy is NOT a virtue.
The only part of that definition that is correct is 'a born-again Christian'. How can a secular definition define a Christian? That's like you attempting to know what a Christian is supposed to act like news. It doesn't matter whether you think in your finite wisdom that I am qualified or not, because you are not. There are many that claim to be Christian but are not. Hitler was not. It doesn't matter how much you want him to be so you can deny God because of what he did. The Catholic church is apostate and if you think the church will get you to heaven then you are headed for hell. Now there are Catholics that are Christian despite what the church doctrine teaches. The Catholics worship idols and believe you have to earn your place in heaven. Neither one is biblical.
Nana gay marriage is a sin. The Gaystapo's sole purpose is to undermine the institution of the marriage of one man and one women. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. He also said go forth and multiply. But you deny that truth don't you? Let's give them two islands one for the women and one for the men. Let them go forth and become extinct. Then we get our islands back. I suppose you would be all for making what is says about gays in the bible hate speech to force the church to accept it, would you? Simple yes or no would suffice.
Man this is good I like teaching others about the truth of Christianity and expose the lies that people have been taught. I am fired up for God.
I have a definition of christianity, but Eric won't let me print it.
So how about it rr3yvo, are tax exemptions for churches special privileges or not. C'mon Mr. truth about christianty, are tax exemptions for churches special privileges or not? Answer the question for once in your self-righteous life!
Just so you can see how weird it would be to have two mommies and/or two daddies. Yes this hurts the children if any are involved despite what secular studies want you to believe.
Having Gay Parents Is Weird!
Well wtf that is a shame that you can't speak what is on your heart about this manner. That would really show where your heart is, but I already knew that. I am sure every nice liberal would like to speak their heart but that would be evil wouldn't it? I mean you are not evil or mean are you? I mean can't we just get along? Now about whether the church has 'special priviledges' because they are tax exempt. Do you really know why churches are tax exempt? It only happened in the last 50 years or so. It was an effort to silence the church because of the strings attached to it. So the answer it no.
Here I did your homework for you.
Also I will say again that it wouldn't bother me if the church would give up their tax exempt status to better defend against the idiocy in our government and media. You give a perfect example.
How weird is it to have parents that are overly religious? But then again I guess that's ok, right?
Hey r, if 40% of Americans say they attend Christian services nearly every week, or more, and 83% identify with a religious denomination, and 58% say they pray at least weekly, what percent has God told you are true Christians? I hear different folks say that God has told them different percentages.
I guess I am confused, because darned if I can figure it out. I am also wondering if God tells different people different percentages, as the claims of those who speak to him demonstrate. What percentage does God, and you (his right hand man) actually say? If he hasn't told you, would you mind asking him?
Could it be that the explosive growth of the evangelistic fundamentalist Christian sects is just a permutation of the "If it feels good do it." mantra that is pervasive in America?
(Joyful noise, arms waving, amplified ear bursting rock based music, huge video screens, etc.)
I'm not sure it matters.
At times there are folks who post here who state they are Christian. I accept their self definition as such. However when reading their posts it is easy to see that there is a good deal of variance in perspective among that group.
So, what is a Christian? Who is a Christian? I haven't seen much discussion of that.
Is one who believes the Deist concept that a supreme creator started the whole of creation, and that Jesus is the best role model one can have a Christian, even though they do not believe in miracles, nor that Christ rose again? I suspect that some who believe just that, and no more, consider themselves Christian.
In sharp contrast are those who believe the Bible literally true in totem. They of course would not allow that the former are Christian, and generally refuse to believe anyone who believes in anything other than literal interpretation is a Christian.
Then there are those, likely a majority, who fall somewhere between those two poles.
I would enjoy seeing a discussion on this blog, each participant outlining, and defending their Christian individual personal beliefs. I think many of those who could post, and have posted would display interesting depth within their posts. Selfishly I may gain from it a broader understanding of what defines a Christian.
then again ... he who says there is no god but continues to worship at the altar of self ... as is the habit of some on this site ... must be as mixed up as those who worship a living god who came in the flesh ... wouldn't you say?
I can't believe divorce lawyers haven't lobbied for gay marriage. It would be a bonanza for them.
Zeke: "then again ... he who says there is no god but continues to worship at the altar of self ..."
Are you "just say'n" that those who do not believe in god only worship themselves? I think you are over simplifying by saying you EITHER worship god, OR you worship yourself, but please clarify? If that is the case, then worship is a poor choice of words, and used in that context is insulting to individual intelligence. I do not worship a god, nor do I worship anything else. I accept the fact that I have but one life to live, and for me the best way to enjoy that life is to live with as much peace and harmony with all living things around me. I worship no god (impossible to worship something irrational for me), but I have tremendous appreciation for life.
A fascinating 5 minute appreciation of our universe:
Perhaps an argument that those who worship a god are really the ones worshiping themselves?
Its a long story News. But still hanging around trying to catch up occasionally. Glad to see everyone still trying to communicate their thought!
Re: your last two comments ND. Well put, and I agree.
Bravo Nana, I wish I could have made that point that well myself.
Mommy and Daddy are fighting....
WTF I have always enjoyed your one liners, but this time I think you have topped yourself.
ROTFLMAO...over, and over.
Lest I be misunderstood by my comment to WTF, I must say that the current discussion between ND, and NA is in my opinion an interesting discussion between heavyweights. Thanks to you both. I grow from your discourse.
By the way WTF your comment leaves me with the suspicion that I must be the blog Grampa. ;)
....yes. Yes I am.
In your pursuit for clarity news I can tell you that Romney is not a Christian. Mormons are not Christian.
Good to see you r. Do you believe that Obama is a Christian?
r probably doesn't believe Obama to be a christian because he detests his political views or perhaps worse, just maybe because he is black. I am happy to be corrected on the latter. I pesonally do not believe he is a real christian, mainly because I think he is too intelligent, but realizes he could never be elected unless he professed to be one. Nor is he alone, as I'm sure there have been several fairly recent presidents that were agnostic or atheist as well, but cannot come "out" for fear of the consequences.
Mormons cannot be real christians because unlike all other religions, their beliefs are silly......
First you have to know what a Christian is to determine whether someone is not. The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Most of them are misled because they are taught what Joseph Smith said as truth when he was the liar. Just like Catholics are misled by the church. Jehovah Witness are misled just like many other cults. Nana you have to know the truth before you can recognize the lie. You don't know and then you tell me I am wrong? Are all of them going to hell? No there are Christians among them despite what the church teaches. If it is a direct contradiction to the bible or they have to have their own book(Book of Mormon, Catholic Cathesim)then they are not Christian.
RT I am having trouble determining who the racist is here. Nana a you seem to have to mention that Obama is black because of_____________. I do happen to believe that he is not Christian but the fact that he is not Christian or black is not the reason I don't like him. Do you think that his utter incompetence and failure as president has anything to do with it? I trust that even the dumbest American citizens know Obama is black so there is no need for me to mention it. I would like to see someone defend his postion because of his actual conversion experience to Christianity or something he has been successful at, but nothing is said about that. Do you think Rev. Wright is a Christian? Nuff said.
Have you been invited to any parties lately?
Nana, Nana, Nana my my but I am thoroughly qualified to make that judgement. I am a sinner just like you, but it is the blood of Jesus that saves me. If a religion believes something different it is not Christian. Personally if you say you are Christian and I know nothing of your faith then I would have to believe you. But when we know what people believe as not being Christian, then they are not, no matter what they claim. I know it troubles you for me to be right but I study the truth and can detect falsehoods. I am far from perfect but your posts on here have made me much better at defending the faith. I want to thank you for that. You like to lump all claimed Christians into one pile when there are actually very few Christians that are part of the total that claim to be. Sadly I am not the one missing the point. Christians need to judge other Christians so we don't stray from the word of God. We need accountability and we don't get it from listening to TBN. We can only get it from the word of God.
An unbeliever quoting scripture to a Christian how weird is that. Giving me quotes you don't believe in yourself and cannot understand. News I expect you to do better then that. Does that pass your peer review? Aren't you judging me by doing so? Maybe you need to pray at your Raw Story altar for the answers.
News if I can't judge who is a Christian or not by their beliefs and actions then I would be subject to believe anything like you. All they have to do is pass a peer review and you believe it, right! Facts don't matter as long as a majority believes it, right!
Please rank the top 5 religions in descending order of silliness. I would do it but I can't get myself to separate one from the other in regards to silliness. Although slightly less perverted (for now) christianity is really no different than islam, only the level in which you are prepared to force what you believe on others.
we're all still waiting for these facts you keep promising but don't deliver. Are you a politician?
I rest my case.
Nana, Nana you want to judge me and then tell me I have no right? Last I checked we still have freedom in this country. I would never want to take away your right to judge me. Of course if you manage to legislate the bible as hate speech then I may lose that right. Besides your experience with your grandmother why do you have so much hate for Christians? Then you try to say we are the haters. I don't hate you I simply disagree with you and will tell you the truth. I like the old saying "if you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen". If you want to make an arguement then make it or call me racist or judgemental when you don't. Doesn't matter to me. God Bless
Let me rephrase since the last one was deleted.
"I'll judge you rr3yvo, I'll judge the "heck" out of you."
The woman taking the man's name when married is not about ownership it is about the federal headship. The man has the responsibility of the household. When Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, sin entered the world through Adam not Eve. If the woman don't want the man's name then why get married. Marriage is an institution formed by God where you become one. Genesis 2:24, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh." Matthew 19:6, "Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." The man should be the head of the household not as a dictator but love her as Christ loved the church. Many times in our world today the reason women are head of the house is because the man won't step up and be the man. If you would have had children what name would you given them? Yours or hers?
You mean like how Mrs. Clause took Santa's last name? What was her maiden name I wonder?
Truth be told I feel sorry for the religious. When you're a kid it's tolerable if you have an imaginary friend, but when you're a grown up it's just sad.
Did anyone watch the Hatfield's and McCoy's on the history channel? I thought it was great but I could'nt help but take note that along with all the bloodshed were numerous references to god. I guess some things never change and in the eyes of the religious anything, and I mean anything can be justified.
"He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on."
Ain't it funny that statements beg differing perceptions. And ain't it funny that a line from one song can provoke thoughts of a line from another.
"Ain't that a shame, my tears fell like rain"
This is for those of you that think Hitler was a Christian. This is for those that thinks abortion is different then the holocaust.
Baby Screams for help during an abortion procedure!
Do you love to fish at the Hab center lakes? Me too, but I do not like the excessive amounts of trash left by my fellow anglers. Really? If you have the time to haul in all of your gear, and enjoy the beautiful area to fish, don't you have time to pick up your empty worm containers, soda bottles and trash? We are very lucky to have such a user-friendly fishing-hole right in town. Please respect it -- if you can bait a hook, you can toss your trash in a trash can.
Interesting genetic stuff News. Thanks
For those of you who take the bible literally; I have a question.
It is said that we are all descendents of Adam and Eve and since their blood was pure; interbreeding caused no problems and the population expanded. Where did the unpure blood come from?
I guess I have a second qestion as well. After the flood, everyone was killed except Noah and his family. I take it then, that we are all descended from them now, as no one else was alive. Was their blood pure as well?
Never heard any significant answer to these questions.
Very good question IT but I am not an expert. I am just a sinner saved by grace. Thanks news. I believe Adam and Eve had perfect genetics. They were brand new they weren't born they were created. They lived in a perfect place they communicated with God until sin entered. Often referred as the fall of mankind. As each generation passed our genetics become less then perfect we have disease, we have defects and as they are passed down they progressively become worse. Kind of like order to chaos, we never see chaos become order. When we get something new what happens? It becomes old, it doesn't work as well over time, parts wear out it will never be new again. The earth we live on is wearing out it will not last forever. We don't see anything old becoming new. I would like to look up some references that you could read that will explain it better. I will try to post them this weekend. Basically it began when sin entered the world through Adam. Noah and his family were decendants from Adam and had to replenish the earth after the flood. It was later that inbreeding became unacceptable.
...and then Santa came and brought us toys!
I was hoping that the Bible dealt with it specifically.
The decrease in genetics sounds a bit like evolution, so perhaps there is common ground after all.
WTF response to rr's explanation of genetics and inbreeding from Adam and Eve: "...and then Santa came and brought us toys!" Totally appropriate WTF, and caused me to LMAO.
And News's response: "From a religious standpoint, that was a pretty good answer rr." Almost as funny, especially considering that was the biggest load fairy tale stuff I've ever heard. But then again, a religious point of view is no different than a fairy tale.
IT, the bible cannot deal with an answer about inbreeding from Adam and Eve or from Noah. The reason is because none of it is true. It is hard to imagine how grown adults could possibly believe that the story of Adam and Eve has any truth whatsoever.
Nana: "but like an extremely aggressive cancer, we have overwhelmed the perfectly healthy systems, flooded it with toxins and waste, and consumed everything in our path in the name of "endless growth".
That pretty much nails it. It may be too late, but the only way to possibly avoid catastrophe is to maintain a zero (or negative) population growth, educate all children in science, and somehow instill every person to become environmentally responsible. And then the rest of us must pick up the slack from those who follow ancient tribal writings about supernatural beings watching over us. This pretty much insures catastrophe is the likely way the cancer (our species) will be dealt with. I think I'll go do a couple of shots now :-(
IT here are some links for you to study. I think the bible does deal with it directly. I don't think the fallen world mirrors evolution. Evolutionist want us to believe that everything came from disorder to order but we don't see mutations do that. There is always something lost in the transfer.
A very interesting subject indeed.
Interesting news that they can't decide how old the bones are. They have to find the age that fits their presuppositions. Even when something is peer reviewed can't it still be wrong? They have you convinced don't they?
The peer-review process requires hard, indisputable evidence that is repeatable and verifiable before it even begins to accept any conclusions. That is why science works so well!
-- Posted by news across on Sun, Jun 10, 2012, at 7:19 AM
The peers still have to accept it. Science does work well for most things but something past a few thousand years old things become sketchy. Close counts as being accurate but no one really knows. They can make people believe what they want.
A few thousand years ago the accepted conclusion was that the earth was flat. Some accept the conclusion of the Big Bang without knowing how it happened or where it came from. It just happened. Amazing faith!!
Thanks for the time, I'll check the links.
You are incorrect on evolutionary theory, however.
Evolutionists believe that there are some random mutations (caused by a variety of factors) and those life forms best suited to regeneration continue.
On another note, there is no doubt that mankind, as we know it, has only a few hundred years left unless we do something quickly (in my view, it's too late, the oceans are ruined and we'll see that soon enough). We are killing rainforests and polluting our water. We will run out of oil eventually and we have too many people.
Anyway, it is for better minds than mine to come up with solutions, but I do feel that we've passed the titration point and that there is no return.
Rr3: : Some accept the conclusion of the Big Bang without knowing how it happened or where it came from. It just happened. Amazing faith!!"
I think there is "wiggle room" for you here RR3, except not with time. My simplistic view is that science can verify that the universe is spreading apart at a measureable speed from what can be determined as a central location where it was once all together at the same time. I know that is overly simplistic, but that is my perception of the explanation. They can calculate that the point in time was several billion years ago with a certain degree of accuracy, but nobody know what happened before that or exactly how it happened. It is also my understanding that science is trying to understand some of those questions and may very well be able to enhance our understanding of those events with experimentation as well. You can have your "wiggle room" because you can claim that that may well be the point at which "god done it" (made the Big Bang). Of course, that is way too simplistic and begs the question of what happened before that, and that question as to what happened before that persists with science as well. But to leap to the conclusion that god did it IS the faith I believe you are referring too. However, if you appreciate what science can calculate with varying degrees of accuracy, you would also have to admit that the earth is really billions of years old and that Adam and Eve are pure fantasy. You are still free to feel that a supernatural force caused the Big Bang. Its just that your religion has no relevance to science.
Reread what I wrote.
I said that some mutations are random, and this is true.
Those that are not viable do not reproduce. That is nature's method of insuring viability.
Perhaps we are splitting hairs here, but even man has purposefully caused some mutations in some life forms. I don't believe that you would attribute these mutations to nature (or whatever the force is).
Anyway, I do believe in evolution, and I do like to hear the other side's version.
It does appear that rr is outnumbered on this forum, but I give him credit in sticking to his beliefs.
In the long term, the final result will be too big for any one idea or concept to overcome.
Suppose science tells us how it all began and will end. That won't stop the end from happening; so once again...I will just sit here on my little spot on the earth and try to appreciate all the things that have been given to me, whether by chance or design.
A buddy of mine turned me on to this. It's my new favorite comic strip and he's one of your local brethern. I thought some here might appreciate it.
Therein lies the problem news is when you believe that something came from nothing or it had no cause. That is faith mate not science.
Nana you really think evolution is cyclic. Give me an example not an experiment but something physical that happened by random chance. I would really like to see that. In fact I would like to see something that happened by random chance that was better. If what you believe is true then life is meaningless because even if we destroy mankind and this planet there will be something to randomly replace it so why are we worried about this one when we can't do anything about it?
IT I appreciate the comment but someone on here has to be right. So I have to hang in there.
What is that something?
That is based on redefining nothing news. A quantum vacuum is not nothing. Empty space is not nothing. We can't prove something came from nothing when we have to have something called nothing which really isn't so we can say something came from nothing. If space and time began with the Big Bang then space is not nothing. Stephen Hawking has observed, "Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention." You only believe it news because of your presupposition and you really want it to be true. But it is not.
What perspective should I have Nana?
What is the purpose of time?
Resilience-The property of a material that enables it to regain its original shape or position after being bent, stretched or compressed.
Redundant-Exceeding what is required or natural:needlessly repetitive.
Let's see do either one of those definitions define evolution? Does it explain how it adds or removes? They seem to both deal with something remaining the same.
Random-Having no specific pattern, purpose, organization or structure::A phenomenon that does not yield the same results every time it occurs under identical circumstances::An event having a relative frequency of occurence that approaches a stable limit as the number of observations of the event increases to infinity.
I think that better defines how evolution works. Thats why it will never be more than a theory.
What do I think news.
News, I hate to break it to you, but I've found proof that you are finally wrong about something.. I mean nothing...
There does seem to be a point at which one must decide whether they have "faith" in science or not on some issues. As an example, for many of us, the Big Bang and laws governing Quantum Mechanics makes me realize there are concepts beyond my comprehension. Because of the vast body of evidence across many areas of study which science has led to numerous discoveries, I do have faith in the scientific method. Perhaps faith is a poor choice of words and something like confidence in the scientific method is more appropriate. There are also areas of science that are more mature than others, where the vast body of evidence is there to make some scientific theories irrefutable. Evolution is one such scientific theory that the body of evidence is so large that it really is irrefutable. And then there are those scientific theories that perhaps I should consider irrefutable, but because they are both beyond my comprehension AND beyond my ability to assign relevance to, they just don't really matter to me much. The concept of time beginning and/or ending fits into the latter category. There are much greater minds than mine that derive relevance from whether or not time began with the BB or whether time has an end. These are more philosophical questions for me than scientific questions. For me, whether time began with the BB or not has no relevance to whether there is a god or not. If it did, then I would have difficulty perhaps being an atheist. However, the vast body of scientific laws and theories that I can understand do make it quite obvious that no person could ever walk across water, rise from the dead, turn water into wine, and so on. The simplistic point I am trying to make is that although Time and the BB are interesting topics I occasionally enjoy contemplating, they in essence have nothing to do with the price of tea in China :-)
People will always have the right to not say that phrase, but I'd bet money that it will never be removed legally.
I know this Nana.
However,anything that was done by law, can be undone.
Nevertheless, how much are you willing to bet?
Have you guys seen his stuff? I think you might like it. The Wages of Sin!
An interesting new hypothesis regarding the genetic origin of gay men. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/why-are-there-gay-men_n_1590501.html?ut...
If all men are created equal why don't all men have equal rights?
InTheMiddle, your links posted all carry the theme that peer review has bias. The irony is whether or not some of those propositions pass peer review, but interesting nonetheless. Although peer review can have bias, it is still "the best thing" going to legitimize scientific theory. Certainly you are not suggesting that quotes from the bible or Koran be used to weigh against scientific theory, are you?
Peer Review: "Reviewers are typically anonymous and independent, to help foster unvarnished criticism, and to discourage cronyism in funding and publication decisions. However, US government guidelines governing peer review for federal regulatory agencies require that reviewer's identity be disclosed under some circumstances. Anonymity may be unilateral or reciprocal (single- or double-blinded reviewing). Since reviewers are normally selected from experts in the fields discussed in the article, the process of peer review is considered critical to establishing a reliable body of research and knowledge".
Okr they do. They have the same God given rights as any other man. They want special rights from man because of a lifestyle choice.
Churches are tax free, are those considered "special rights?"
News that should never be done by anyone that calls themself 'Christian'. They should be free to protest peacefully and pass out literature about Jesus, not how bad Islam is. It would be interesting how any professed peaceful Christian would have been treated at such an event. I would say that anything putting Islam in a negative light would not make the news.
Last I checked the 'church' is not a man. As far as I know all churches enjoy this priveledge so what is 'special' about it. Compare apples to apples and you might have a point.
Why would Eric want a thankless job like that?
No matter what you do; about 1/3 to 1/2 of the people are on the other side of the proposal. Before long, eveyone is upset with you.
Besides, it would be a huge pay cut.
Sorry, this was supposed to go on the main page.
It is not the same God news. Sorry!
I am and you wouldn't understand because you follow man not God. So how would you know who he is?
You may be right in your statement Nana but you don't know who God is either.
Who calls them the 'abramic religions' man or God? What do you use to know that is true?
All churches are tax exempt so there is nothing special about it? Really? Tell that to every other business and see if they agree.The church, if nothing else IS a business. No more no less. Even though they have managed to turn the intangile into a traded commodity (snake oil) doesn't make it any less so. Does your circular logic ever make you dizzy? 'cause I'm about to hurl. Do you need a special church approved microscope in which to split those hairs? Better hold on to it because you just might need it when you try to pass your camel through the eye of a needle.
Well said WTF!
And man was new, and he saw abundance, he saw scarcity. He saw fire, stars and he saw wind, and lightning, he trembled, he exulted. He said why for all these things? On the seventh day, after seeing all things he arose from a dream, and said let there be God.
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jun 19, 2012, at 9:32 AM
Really!!! What part of it.
What do you base your opinion of God on. Anything!
Circular logic r.
r I'm not certain if your comment re: on what you base your opinion of God was addressed to me because you are under constant attack from so many directions, but if it was addressed to me, I base my opinion on what my mind tells me about God. That is the same as everyone else. There are a lot of different minds out there huh? :)
Aw.....diddums get hims feeling hurt?
So you base your opinion on God on what your mind tells you! Fascinating!
News when did I say I don't believe in the God of Abraham?
Wtf what the hell are you talking about?
How many believe that Alexander the Great existed and why?
I think r has a point when he says that he does not worship the same God as do Muslims, and Jews. I am not trying to put words in his mouth but it may be that he considers their God a precursor to his. By that I mean that his God is one that morphed into a three headed God with the appearance of Christ, and thus became an entity with major differences.
The problem with that logic is that would mean his God is only two thousand years old, and to get around that you have to start fudging again. I don't know how you handle God created the world, thus when he was Creator, he was the same God, as that of the Muslims, and Jews. Do you still worship Creator, but also Triune God? Does that make a Quadune God? The questions just begin there, and as I said, back to fudging again.
Maybe the trick is to rationalize that God was always Triune, but just didn't want to show us that until good, and ready?
RE: Alexander The Great. How about changes in the gene pool where he, and his genetic type went, conquered, and ahem, intermingled. However, I do not think there is likely evidence that Alexander himself heterosexually intermingled.
News and Okr I don't think you have been listening to what I believe or you wouldn't be questioning the what God I worship. I worship the God of the Holy Bible not the Quran. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there before creation. The bible tells us that. Nothing morphed. God in 3 persons has been since the beginning. And you want to accuse me of a circular arguement? Really, my arguement hasn't changed and it won't but your's changes depending on which way the wind blows. When it comes to God evidence doesn't matter, the bible doesn't matter. Another thing that you can't answer is this. What would God have to do to prove that he is real and who he says he is?
SC nice article do you not have a comment on it?
Here's the deal - Jews, Muslems and Christians all worship the same diety - the One Christians call "God the Father." That's biblically sound.
Christians, however, tend to get a little too worshipful of the Son of God, Jesus - or the Messiah if you will. The problem is that Jesus himself pointed to God the Father throughout his life and ministry.
Jews, of course, except for Messianic Jews, do not believe Jesus to be their Messiah. They still worship the Father - the same one Muslems call Ala (I think.)
The trouble with the whole "they all worship the same God" thought is the way they all worship.
* Christians worship God the Father and believe that the Son is the only way to the throne room of the Father ("no man comes to the father but by me"). However, many have placed their worship on Jesus instead of the Father.
* The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. They are still bound up in the Law that Jesus came to fulfill.
* The Muslems have a very different understanding of what it means to "believe" and probably (not stated as a fact) have a skewed idea of what the love of God looks like - which is to be expected since they don't have the model of Jesus to follow.
It gets kind of confusing when you start laying it all out there. I think that's why analytical folks have a hard time grasping it all.
And by the way - there is ample Old Testament evidence that God has always been Triune. In several places the Bible quotes God as speaking in the plural:
In Genesis - "they will be like us."
In Isaiah - "who shall we send and who will go for us?"
And so on.
Maybe there is solid biblically reference after all.
That is incorrect Nana.
Its not about how you feel news. Its about what the bible says. God doesn't care how you feel about his word. You feel the bible is a book of pornography but is it true? Why?
Ok news tell me the facts that tell you that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.
Gentle Ben it is not biblically sound to believe Jews, Muslems and Christians all worship the same diety. If you believe the bible it can't be. Muslims deny the trinity. They also deny that Jesus is divine. Jews still waiting for the Messiah do not worship the same God. Any religion or cult not believing the doctrines in the bible do not worship the Christian God.
Comparison grid between Christianity and Islamic doctrine
Nana are you really using wikipedia to explain your position on the bible. Lets ask wikipedia who God is. Wiki is God real? Wiki is God triune? Wiki please tell me how to worship and what to believe. Why would I rely on wiki to tell me about the bible. Nana you are much better then that.
Yes, you have to be a christian to get raptured otherwise you'll get left behind. I hate to break it to ya, but good works aren't going to get you into Heaven.
It's funny that someone who believes in the bible would question Wikipedia.
Sometimes in my dotage I get confused about things. I am wondering if some of you younger folks could clarify a minute point I am pondering. Is the root word for rapture, raptor? As in a great bird coming down, snatching all the best morsels in its claws, and carrying them kicking, and screaming (as in raptored) to The Great Nest In The Sky, all the while dropping the raptored remains of previously digested remains on the heads of we unlucky ones left behind.
OKR - rr can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the word "rapture" is found in the New Testament (or the Old for that matter). However, the best reference for the concept can be found in I Thess. 4:16-17. (16) "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." But no,I don't think it has anythging to do with raptors - though your scenario was very creative. Have a great weekend.
Yes - definitely - TURN THE PAGE!
You guys still buy into this folklore? PSH
If I were religious I wouldn't troll on the internet!
Okay, "Smartdog"...let's test your smarts. What is my religious belief and political affilitation, based on your interpretation of my comments?
K-77 if it isn't an imposition to answer the question that you addressed to Smart Dog my take based on your comments is that you are likely a moderately liberal Democrat, and a less than dogmatic Catholic, who may not be an avid practitioner of the faith. If both those answers are incorrect my second opinion is that you are an independent politically, and a member of a mainline church such as Methodist.
We may have some faux-explosive issues here, but at least we're not in the fix Moberly got themselves into when stumbling into the world of "business incentives for job creation."
SD from the NYT article re: Moberly that you cited; "Investigators also learned that state development officials had learned -- before the bonds were sold -- that Mamtek's sucralose plant in China had never opened, because of environmental concerns. But that information was not relayed to Moberly, according to a report by the Missouri House Interim Committee on Government Oversight and Accountability.
Looks to me like negligence (at the least) on the part of state development officials who knew, or should have known that the withheld information could, or would be detrimental to Moberly. It may be that entity is the deep pocket that Moberly is frantically searching for to cover their losses.
This is the religion blog so, to put my last comment into context, I guess Moberly could also pray a lot for relief from their dilemma, but they better cover their butts with both hands while they do it. ;)
O. K. rr3 time for the next round; come off your stool in the corner, and come out swingin, after all you do know that you are the "Rocky" of this religion blog, and though bloodied in some rounds you have not been knocked out. :)
new across -
Just for the record - You never heard me say anything about believing anything on this blog. I simply tried to explain what folks were talking about - and their source of information - (I know - you'll say it's not information) to add to the discussion. If you don't mind me saying so, you seem way too ready to pounce on people or their beliefs without really knowing that person or what they believe. Another thing to remember is that RELIGION doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not someone believes in some sort of diety. People can be religious about just about anything - like baiting others and stirring up controversy on a comment section about Religion.
As in "practices the violin religiously" or "golf religiously" or "reads religiously" or "attends the philharmonic religiously" etc.
Cheetah seldom have I disagreed with you in totem. This time I do, the only measure of cautionary reserve that I have is to not forget that you often express yourself in a satirical fun poking manner. I hope that is the case with your statement.
Frankly I think that your major bone of contention is with a particular poster. I see things on this blog frequently that are interesting, and some of them come from relatively new posters. Gentle Ben comes immediately to mind, I look forward to his next post as soon as I finish his last.
My greater concern is that there is not more religious diversity expressed. The blog would benefit from a Muslim, or two, a Buddhist, a Taoist, and so on. We don't have that. For that matter we don't have many Christian moderates, nor as far as I know even one Deist.
It would be interesting to hear more from Christians who are not Biblical literalists.
I think there are fair minded people who post here who possess wisdom. I have learned from them.
Take your ball, and stay home if you must, and I hasten to add I hope you don't. That is one thing, but asking the playground instructor to shut down the playground because you don't like how the other kids play is another.
...but to throw out the baby with the bath water Nana?
Oh boy...what would Jesus do? I say that in all sincerity. Whether man, myth, or magnificent deity his words as I perceive them are for the ages.
I believe that a message of tolerance pervades the Jesus story, and its sagacity is not exceeded. I somehow have arrived at the opinion that such broadness of mind recognizes our individual limitations, especially our own, but also those of others. Not only am I O. K. and you are O. K., but we are together more than that, especially when we are collegial.
Even when at odds, as we often are on this blog we push each other beyond our comfort zones, and from that we grow.
Further, I think that nuance is not only the responsibility of the writer, but also the reader. We each have a different skill set, and some are more adept at nuance than others. I believe that when reading someone's words that one has a duty to attempt to go beyond the readily apparent, and giving consideration to what one has absorbed about the writer try to best establish all that was really meant to be said. That includes the full, and just use of a priori, and a posteriori knowlege. There are often multiple messages in every line, and the reading experience is richer for the recognition.
I guess I will let this go now. I look forward to reading comments from all of you.
I'm all for that ND. :)
Few people know this - or admit that they know it - but it was Catholic believers in eastern Europe that rose up against the governments and brought down the Soviet Union.
It was a certain Pope who led the people from darkness to light during that time.
What people really don't know is that even the fall of the Soviet Union and Communism and all they stood for was carefully orchestrated by the top tier.
(And don't believe for a minute that President Reagan's "Mr. Gorbacev - tear down this wall!" wasn't also staged. It made for great headlines and gave the highly controlled news media something to work with.)
Communism (Marxism, etc.) was a great experiment - but it wasn't lucrative enough for top tier. So they used religion - which the communists had suppressed for so long - to bring the system to its knees. They staged it to look like the unions and workers set things in motion - and even gave some of the credit to Reagan and his tough stance on arms proliferation - but each of these entities merely grabbed onto the coat-tails of an already strong movement away from communism.
Then they (the rulers or puppet masters) took over and once again started lining their own pockets with the booty or spoils from the victory.
So - it looks like the church and religion has a use in their schemes after all.
P.S. - Also - don't believe for a minute that most of what is called "Christian" in today's society has anything to do with Jesus. I would say that it probably grieves him to see what is being done in his name.
That's my two cents worth - well, really about a quarter's worth - but who's counting?
"We are conscious today that many, many centuries of blindness have cloaked our eyes so that we can no longer see the beauty of Thy chosen people nor recognise in their faces the features of our privileged brethren. We realize that the mark of Cain stands upon our foreheads. Across the centuries our brother Abel has lain in blood which we drew, or shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us for the curse we falsely attached to their name as Jews. Forgive us for crucifying Thee a second time in their flesh. For we know what we did."- John XXIII
...and then the one you were talking about GB.
"President Ronald Reagan's correspondence with the pope reveals "a continuous scurrying to shore up Vatican support for U.S. policies. Perhaps most surprisingly, the papers show that, as late as 1984, the pope did not believe the Communist Polish government could be changed."
"In December 1989, John Paul II met with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev at the Vatican and each expressed his respect and admiration for the other. Gorbachev once said "The collapse of the Iron Curtain would have been impossible without John Paul II". On John Paul's death, Mikhail Gorbachev said: "Pope John Paul II's devotion to his followers is a remarkable example to all of us."---Wiki
O. K. CPp. Wow! I haven't had double vision like that since 1969. ;)
GB, I respect your point of view, but your take on the fall of the Soviet Union is a little to "conspiracy theory" oriented for me. Could have, but not sure it even matters. As far as the pope aiding in the fall, I doubt he deserves much credit either. Maybe a little, but basically lots of other big factors, the least of which not being Gorbacev's embracing the free market system over communism. Regardless of what or who had the major influence on the SR downfall, it doesn't make the supernatural sky daddy any more than an imaginary gestapo.
The Bible has to be there to facilitate those short term jail house conversions Cheetah. If you don't convert you don't get parole. ;)
...and a little topical music. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Midnight+Special+Fogerty&view=detail&mid=CB3...
Good to see you back Cheetah, caustic, or otherwise comedic I like your stuff. :)
I hope all is well with you rr3.
Right wing GOP view on Obama Care: "I've got my insurance which works for me and my family and adding 30 million more will degrade the system for all of us and take us closer to a welfare state". The irony is that the free market system when it comes to healthcare is more like Evolution's "survival of the fittest". If Jesus was alive to today, I'm thinking the Tea Party would nail him to the cross!
Many times research in one area has resulted in unexpected and very usable results in another area. I suspect the same may happen here. Science is a business just like religion.
EVERYTHING is a business.
The discovery of the God Particle may be announced July 4th. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/02/higgs-discovery-cern-god-particle_n_164...
Oops, I didn't scroll down, and see you guys were already on it. I should have known. ;)
Smok'n. I don't think it is exaggerated to say that science has brought man a great distance away from the pain and suffering of day to day survival. Religion may give some of you peace of mind (I maintain a false sense, but that's another topic), but it is only science that has brought us modern medicine and discoveries to make our lives much more bearable and the ability to live a lot longer as well. Every scientific discovery is just a step to further us along that road, sometimes a small step that leads to much bigger step. You may be right that the HB particle may provide very little now, but as in many thousands of discoveries before it, it may also bring us closer to more discoveries that are significant for our species and maybe even the earth. Putting down discoveries such as the HB and the cost does not advance the cause of religion one bit. I maintain that religion has done nothing to help our species, and just the opposite, has helped keep us backward and has even caused much pain and suffering for millions over several centuries. If we could somehow segregate all the people who believe the bible and Koran literally into their own continent, we'd have a very tribal group of religious people versus a much more advanced and civil society based on science. The religious world view has done nothing but hold us back as a species.
There is a probable absence of immortality. The absence can not be rationally denied. Thus the only way to avoid believing the probability is by a leap of faith, which leaves logic, probability, and rationality behind.
Only faith in immortality can make one certain in such belief. To present other arguments is an indicator of self questioning, more than it is an attempt to prove the case to others. True faith does not need supporting evidence. If such is needed then one does not have unquestioning belief (true faith).
True, A Hitler or Charles Mansion can only be as evil as those who will do their dirty work.
ND: "Science, in the extreme narrative, says that the world is MERELY the sum of the individual parts, no more - no less. Once we know all the parts, we know EVERYTHING about the ENTIRE world - of course the argument here is while physicists may have figured out the mathematics of the cosmos, they don't have much of a grip on complexities of things like why cats purr..."
You certainly like to minimalize the value of science by using the "more to it" argument. Of course you are right that happiness means so much more than quantifying our physical understanding. But, there is no comparison between science and religion... none, nada. Science may indeed be able to explain why cats purr someday (maybe it has already), but regardless science provides answers to how things work and has solved problems that increase our health and longevity. It has allowed us to beat life threatening disease and cure the most basic ailments that used to make our lives short and often painful. Nobody is saying it provides happiness or even an explanation for such things as love, lust, or infatuations that make us purr. Religion only offers a false sense of irrational belief that we are a preferred species that is watched from above and if we stay away from certain pleasures we might attain everlasting life, and if we don't, eternal damnation. Please do not compare the benefits of religion to science.
"Religion only offers a false sense of irrational belief that we are a preferred species that is watched from above and if we stay away from certain pleasures we might attain everlasting life, and if we don't, eternal damnation."-RT
Far too big a bite RT. You are damning the whole apple because it has a rotten spot. Taoism, Buddhism, and others are sweet spots worth tasting. ;)
"Believe those who are seeking the truth.
Doubt those who find it."
I have spent so much of my life finding questions that I have had little time to look for answers. ;)
When is the Saline County Fair?
luvthoseowls....when did this happen?
Thank you. Hopefully it is just temporary.
The Higgs Boson walks into a cathedral.
The priest says, "we don't allow Higgs Bosons around here."
The Higgs Boson replies, " without me, how can you hold mass?"
Saw that on face ook earlier today and had to post. Original author unknown.
Hilarious Philemon...where you been? :)
Actually, I've been boycotting the blogs, although I have read every word that has been written here in my absence. I have occasionally almost jumped into the conversation but just haven't been motivated enough to make the effort to post. Odd that a silly joke would make me take the plunge.
Well, come on back when you feel the time is right.
News, enjoyed the Sam Harris video on science answering moral questions. Some truths appear to be universal in nature (forcing women to wear a burka is wrong), but certainly varies with the mind of the person claiming such universal truths. The problem is that it will be impossible to come up with universal truths on values as long as a large portion of the world population remains dilusional about supernatural beings that watch over us. If any of you haven't taken the time to watch that video, I recommend you scroll down and do so.
ND: "...unless of course we do ourselves in..."
That depends on what we do with our knowledge, and whether we can learn and apply it. The major religions stymie knowledge and fight it. Those who have a strong sense of spirituality are not the problem. They can and do understand how important our scientific knowledge IS (or can be). Those who buy into the man written books (bible and Koran as an example) and literal interpretations will drag us down. They will continue to fight the information science gathers with irrational conclusions from those vague scripts, and stop us from forming a consensus that could lead to actions to help slow down or stop events such as global warming. They will continue to thwart women's health and deny evolution as small examples of their ignorance. There are major populations who live by their imperfect book's interpretations and make women wear burkas and continually engage war because of pure religious conviction. Science is the tool that CAN be used to guide the needed action, but the major religions of Christianity and Islam promote ignorance and continually fight the usefulness of what science can provide. I believe science and spirituality can work together, but not spirituality grounded in interpreting the so called holy books.
Great discussion folks... wish I had time at the moment to thoroughly ponder the very good links presented, and engage. See you later.
One thought; I don't think we fully understand, nor even recognize, all the fail safes that evolution has provided humanity to assure its survival. For instance, there may be some reason that "Nature" has set out at least two different brain types, each with differing larger segments of the brain, beyond the obvious provision of a diversity that would allow one, or the other to survive, under trying circumstances. Oh yes, and beyond compelling Conservatives, and Liberals to continually yammer at each other in dispute. ;)
News I know that. I obviously was not clear about what I was trying to say, if my comment appeared to be in conflict with evolutionary process. Maybe I should have said is that there may be subtle complexities of evolutionary process that we do not understand.
I did not mean to communicate that nature "reasons"; perhaps though we don't reason well enough.
The fireworks were postponed, both at MHC and the city; so that would indicate a make up date.
No idea how that post got on the religion page.
Ten cliches Christians should avoid, as per a Christian.
OKR, those cliches were interesting. Hard to believe that guy was a christian. If so, that's one that non-christians and non-beleivers could easilty live in harmony with.
RT I also hope that the Christians who read this blog chose to read it. If they took it to heart they may also find that we non-believers would be easier to live with. It cuts both ways. ;)
News, how often do those Mormon missionaries accept your offers of tea and/or coffee? Aren't Mormons one of the groups that avoid caffiene? Both coffee and tea contain caffiene (and I understand that even decaf still contains a little caffiene)?
Yesterday I was driving down Odell street and I saw a man, not a kid walking down the street with his pants pulled all the way down to the back of his knees and underwear showing, I yelled at him to pull up his pants, I was wondering does the city or state have laws which deals with this? I think its should be against the law for this. Eric could you let me know, and if there is a law for this why isnt it being enforced. I sure dont want to look at a guy with his pants down and sure wouldnt want my kids other kids seeing the same gross thing.
O. K. rr3, just where are you? Did you panic at the Supreme Court's upholding of Obamacare, pack your necessities in the dark of night, and flee to Oklahoma seeking refuge? If so, I hope you took your computer with you. ;)
Well, well, Brother News Across what perfidy! You shall be assailed from all sides; by the collegial folks you have betrayed, and those enraged by your ceaseless abominable mockery. ;)
Here's a question for you, what do you believe (or not believe) and why? Do you believe there is a God? Do you believe the is a Heaven and a Hell? Do you believe that Jesus is God's son? Or was He just another prophet? Did anyone watch the 20/20 special about Heaven last Friday??
Oh my goodness! rr3 now you really do gotta come back, though I am some what trepidatious at the thought of you, and News Across, back, to back smiting the Devil, and all the sinners that surround you. ;)
Well, that's where faith comes in!! You have to have faith to believe! And just because science hasn't proven something yet, doesn't mean that it's not true. I believe that sometimes science is flawed. Some scientists with prove somethng and then there will be another study that proves it wrong. Thanks for answering my question!! I love to hear other people's thoughts and feelings on religion!
News ~ I have faith that what the bible tells me is the truth. I believe 100% that there is a Heaven and I'm going there. I believe that Jesus is God's son and He came to this earth to die for our sins. I believe that he died on the cross and rose from the dead on the third day. I believe this because I believe the bible to be factual and that's what it says. Yes, the bible is written by men, but these men wrote it because God told them to write it. I believe that since they were writing it for God, it's perfect.
Also, I've been a Christian for years and I've read the bible all the way through. I'm not sure where those people saw that if you don't do your chores correctly then you get punished. People like that that make me cringe. It's awful what those people have done and it's a shame that they blame it on the bible.
I'm not sure what draconian measures you're trying to prove wrong. Can you please explain further what you mean by that? Also, I do take the bible literally, whether you believe it is factual or not, that's on you. I believe it to be fact. Please don't be offended by anything I'm saying. I'm just trying to share my beliefs with anyone who will listen!! :)
There's where we don't agree. The bible is not mythology. It's the true Word of God. I cannot force my beliefs on anyone. You have to believe it for yourself. I believe a relationship with God is a personal experience and I cannot "prove" it to you because He Himself cannot be seen. I can see His works and I can feel His presence. That, my friend, is nothing that I can prove to you. You have to see and feel for yourself to believe.
The bible is the epitome of mythology.
The Easter Bunny is not mythology. It's the true Word of my mom and dad and most adults I grew up around. I cannot force my beliefs on anyone. You have to believe it for yourself.
Now, becaues I and many others fully believe this, we think it should be taught in schools and guide us in our governing. Who among you will not stand up for the Easter Bunny. And, if you don't believe, those of us who do will look down on the rest of you non-believers as fools worthy of eternal hell.
By all means feel free to believe there is a higher spiritual level and there is something more to life than the physical evidence provides. That spirituality guides us beyond science and into the arts, and for many it manifests itself with compassion for all things living and our environment. I enjoy being around people with that passion for life. However, as soon as you start spouting off quotes from your Koran or bible, or any of the other books purported to be written by the hand of a supernatural being as being even a remote fact, and especially claiming to be the whole truth, please stay away from me, my family, my schools, and my government. Those books are so riddled with falsehoods that you toss your hat in the ring of fools to even attempt to believe those are the written word of a supernatural being. You can be spiritual without being a fool and then having the audacity to push claims that you cannot possibly know onto others.
Myop: "I believe it to be fact. Please don't be offended by anything I'm saying. I'm just trying to share my beliefs with anyone who will listen!!"
I'm not sure offended is the right word, nor am I sure that it is not. You trying to share an opinion about something you cannot possibly know more than me or other non or different believers is futile without some type of evidence. Other than saying you believe in the tooth fairy, there just isn't much else to be said. Maybe crass is a better word?
I love how you used the Easter Bunny to mock me. I am not sure why, if you don't want anything to do with other the bible or any other book about supernatural powers, why you have decided to be involved in a religion forum. Possibly it is to mock and attack other peoples beliefs?
News Across - Humor me here...what happens to us after we die? What are your beliefs on that?
THANK YOU NANA!
The thought occurs to me that at times pity is inspired by arrogance.
Myop, I just thought it funny that a similar point could be made by substituting god with the easter bunny or the tooth fairy, and the result appears to be the same. I do not mean to mock, but I suppose it did come off that way, so please accept my apologies. I do not apologize however for attacking religion where it crosses the line and interferes with education and government. Most religious people are good compassionate individuals. You will find me consistent in my criticism of religious views that cross those lines. BTW, if this was a religion forum intended for religious people to come together to praise the lord together, I don't think you'll find anyone agreeing with that interpretation. Hopefully, it encourages open debate on any aspect of religion, as well as an occasional digression into politics, especially since religion often adds an ugly touch to that are as well. Add sex to that too. And regarding your question to News on what happens after you die.. the answer is simple.. ashes to ashes and you cease to exist. BTW, nobody really knows the answer to that one either, certainly not any of the authors of those holy books, no matter how much they believe they know... they don't. And for anyone to claim they really know, IS arrogance.
News I wasn't talking about you any more than I was about myself, and the rest of us. Your skin is getting thin. ;)
So, rt, this is where I was going with that question. If you are right, and nothing happens when we die, what do I lose?? And if I'm right, and there is a Heaven and a Hell, what do you lose? I mean, wouldn't you rather believe in God and be wrong than believe in nothing and be wrong? I know that both of us think that we are right in what we believe, or don't believe. But just humor me and think about it!! Apology accepted!!
myopinion put Occam's razor, and Pascal's wager in your search engine. You may find the result's interesting.
...or better yet myopinion click on this link, and scroll to the comments beginning 12-02-10 on the Religion blog. We had the discussion you are heading toward there at that time. I think you may find it interesting. Let us know what you think. http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1679811.html#723468
Or maybe here...we have been discussing this stuff on this blog for a looong time. ;)
...and now for something completely different re: Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy, et al. Some will enjoy it, others not so much, but I don't think there will be any gnashing of teeth, nor apoplectic sputtering by any of the readers. http://paulbibeau.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-easter-bunny.html
Myop, what the heck, let's redo Pascal's wager again, even though as OKR has mentioned, we have beat that horse to death:
The Wager: "If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation)."
The condensed rebuttals are these:
1) a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him
2) that the wager would apply as much to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods leaving the believer in any particular god in the same situation as the atheist or agnostic(what News said)
3) that God would not reward belief in him based solely on hedging one's bets would not be worthy of a god
So if there is some super deity that made the universe, he (she/it) in all their wisdom will understand that my genetic makeup does not allow me to believe in something based on ancient writings of tribal people somehow expanded into a book that also condones actions I do know in my heart are immoral. In fact, it would be devious on your part to believe in a certain deity because you think you can fool him into believing that you believe in him.... How immoral is that? The worst part for you is that your devious wager has caused you to live (what I believe to be the only life you have) with personal guilt over things you have done that are interpreted as sins by your holy book, yet harm nobody. And yet, you must admit your sins and then you'll be forgiven for them. I'm an atheist. I love my children and grandchildren with all my heart. I have complete compassion for my fellow man and help those in need whenever I can. I also have true compassion for all animals and I do feel sorrow for most of them that must live every day under the laws of "survival of the fittest". I respect our environment and cherish our entire planet and I do my part to try and always do the right thing to make this a better place for all living things aboard this third rock from the sun. Yet, in spite of all of that, most true believers in the bible and Koran believe I am going to eternal damnation because I don't believe their (opposing) texts are the written word of a god. They can make their little wager on how they want to believe and try to fool their god all they want. I'll continue to live the good life free of such irrational shackles. Good luck on your bet :-)
OKR, that was really funny, especially if everyone can hang on to the end where you just know Porter is going to regret what he said .. LOL!
More and more religious leaders losing faith and finally "coming out":
"Former Methodist pastor talks about her move to atheism"
You know we may be giving short shrift to Hinduism on this blog. I don't recall it being mentioned.
I myself have pretty much ignored it; back when I was first looking at religions, too many Gods was confusing to me, and I didn't want any part of reincarnation as something lesser or better, depending on how good I was. I didn't want to come back as a cockroach, or even worse as a right wing fundamentalist Christian, ;) so I turned my back on it before I knew much about it.
Anyway, take a peak at the link; they do have some things going for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism
OKR, yes, Hinduism is nothing like any traditional religion, and perhaps it is not a religion at all. It probably has potential value for anyone with a need to be a part of a philosophy or "way of life" as prescribed by common sense themes. The beauty of it is that it is benign to everyone else, and doesn't prescribe to be the only way or the highway. Although I cannot argue against it, I also don't feel it has much more to offer for me than a book of Chinese proverbs, although they too have great common sense meanings. I'm sure I have now offended anyone following Hinduism or Buddhism, of which I know very little. In general, if it is something you are supposed to "follow", you can count me out. That's why I never got sucked into selling Amway :-) I follow the Bud Light way of life, and besides a bit of a beer belly, it seems to keep me as "one" with Allah!
FFRF: "School-aged children are a captive audience," the group wrote in a letter to Houston County Schools. "They are young, impressionable, and vulnerable to social pressure, particularly pressure exerted from a position of authority. Religious education is not the province of the public schools -- those who think otherwise should imagine the preceding violations as fostering Islam or Judaism instead of Christianity. Such instruction usurps the authority of parents."
News, that is a fantastic approach to stopping these right wing religious groups that continually try to push their religion into our school systems and government. These christian groups continually keep pushing for their brand of religion in our schools. They would be equally offended if an Islamist group tried to push their brand of religion in the school system. Oh, that's right, our country was founded on christianity.... not! And even if it was slightly true, it is not relevant in our schools, and thankfully not legal either. Great article.
Billboard in Omaha reads: "Don't believe in God? Join the Club!"
The author of this link goes on to say: "Since there is absolutely nothing even remotely offensive about this billboard, the inevitable conclusion is that many Christians are offended by the fact that there are atheists. If that isn't bigotry and hatred, I'm not sure what would be."
A really great article that shows how offensive some Christians can be.
Found this awesome blog response to a xtian quote I just have to share:
"I was raised to believe in god and now someone says they don't believe in god so I don't like it."
Response: That's got to be the most concise and accurate theological statement I've ever seen
Oops, I didn't realize that you talked about this before. Sorry. Anyway, rt, I didn't become a Christian just to have "fire insurance" I became a Christian because I believe what the bible tells me (whether you believe it or not is another issue) and I love Jesus. Also, you probably are a good person and do good things, that was never a question. We would probably get along very well (until we started talking about religion.) In most religions, everyone thinks their's is right (including me). Someone has to be wrong. I guess we'll just see when we all die. Or when the rapture comes.
OKR ~ I enjoyed the essay also! Except for the last part! That essay is exactly why I don't teach my children about Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. How can you teach your Child about 4 things (Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy and God) then tell them that three of them aren't true and expect them to believe that God is??
RT ~ Actually, for me, the billboard isn't offensive at all. I don't think people should be offended by Church or pro-life billboards so why should I be offended by an atheist billboard? As far as religion in schools. I think kids should be allowed to bring their bibles and pray. It should not be tought in public schools, because that's when it's becomes forced. Christianity, and any other religion for that matter, is a choice. God gave us the freedom to choose to believe in Him or not to believe. Taking away that choice is jsut not a good idea.
Yep, and there is no better reason to separate the wheat from the chaff than to make beer; add some joyful hops, the least of yeast, and you can turn water into something better than wine. Now, that's a rockin' religion!
I attended a funeral at a church today; a tragic affair, a bright though obviously troubled young man of twenty four had taken his own life. His mother had in the past, been a dear co-worker of mine for twelve years.
I was comforted, as I noted that most of the people in attendance, particularly the immediate family took solace from their belief that he was now in a better place. Their hurt likely would have been even more painful without it. Religious believe does have value whether, or not it has veracity. Some might even say that since I personally felt better, that also was an oblique work of God. I of course would disagree with that conclusion, and offer instead that it was only an example of a sensitive to the human condition humanist being appreciative that people in anguish had found some relief. But, what do I know?
Only this; I do not find personally palatable even the prettiest of mud pies pretending chocolate.
As I have been urged on this blog by the newest acolyte of God to spend some time reading "The Good Book", I at least ought to explain why I choose not too.
In my youth I set myself the task of reading the Bible from cover to cover. My great grandfather had done so, as had my grandfather. Genesis was a mighty struggle, but soon after completing it things began to go a lot faster. I delighted in Ecclesiates, found life lessons in Job, but the Old Testament, for me, went down hill from there. I recall thinking at the time, Gawd Almighty what kept the Jews from running as fast as they could from that stuff into the arms of the literary home of Jesus? Any refuge in a storm, I thought.
I also never completed the New Testament, but it doesn't take a good hearted person long, and certainly not days of devoted devouring to pick up on the simple, and salient message of Jesus. I don't need to read that again, I got it the first time. The rest of it begins to twist that message, and propagandize for the holiness of the message as if that grand message could not stand alone. Are you kidding me?
So, I don't reckon I'll be getting back to reading the Bible any time soon.
News ~ I'm not sure what you think I was making an assumption on. RT said "...that is a fantastic approach to stopping these right wing religious groups that continually try to push their religion into our school systems and government. These christian groups continually keep pushing for their brand of religion in our schools." The only thing I was trying to do was separate myself from thos "right wing religions groups." Some of us Christians do have differing opinions from all the other Christians. That's all I was saying!
Myop, yes, your recent posts sound very reasonable, and perhaps even just a little religion discussion might work over a beer, but some subjects left better off the table help keep friends becoming enemies.
As News stated, kids have a right to pray and read their bible, but should not do it during class. And teachers and administrators need to not ever promote any form of religion. That can be done at home and in the church, so not the slightest of pressure of any kind should come from the school or the school's representatives. I got the impression you can agree to all this?
OKR: "I was comforted, as I noted that most of the people in attendance, particularly the immediate family took solace from their belief that he was now in a better place. Their hurt likely would have been even more painful without it."
This is a tough one. I do not care to tell anyone grieving that my belief is that when you are dead, there is nothing more. It is so difficult for us to lose someone close. It is very much like being in shock. I wonder if even those that claim they are true believers don't have a real underlying doubt and that is why they are in such pain. Surely if they had no doubt, it would not be a sad thing? But alas, wishing with all your heart, and hoping there is a place you will meet again, does not make it so. I try not to say something I don't believe, but if I have to agree with them being in a better place, I can only say that might be true if their life was in great pain or mental anguish. I have lost a parent and a close sibling, and I don't believe my grief is any worse because I don't believe they went to another life, but nor is it better. We wish our loved ones (and pets) could be reunited with us after our own death, but I'm afraid I'm going to be in a very hot place they'd prefer not to go :-) Of course I'm kidding. I have no doubt there is nothing after death.
Myop: "How can you teach your Child about 4 things (Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy and God) then tell them that three of them aren't true and expect them to believe that God is??"
Not to condemn your choice Myop, but I believe there is a way to do just that.
First of all Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, et al are essentially enjoyed by very small children. Sometime between five, and seven years, kids figure it out, or are told by peers. Though there may be a few exceptions, I don't believe that those same small children rationally decide that there is no Jesus, nor that their peers tell them that. There are several reasons why that is not the case, including that most immature minds are not yet capable of rational thought on that level, and that they absorb a distinction from society as a whole between Santa, and Jesus.
Children do have an aptitude for recognizing that most adults through their actions, body language, tone of voice, mannerisms, and facial expressions, convey a differing expression of Jesus, and Santa. They get it.
Yes kids do carry on a pretense of belief in Santa, et al on into their years, but with a more sheepish grin with every passing year. It at that point just becomes a treasured tradition with all involved knowing that it is no more than a delightful fanciful diversion. I see no need to ever sit them down, and explain there is no Santa, nor Bunny, nor Fairy. Give them some credit, they know that.
I also believe that there is no reason to ever even distinguish the Jesus difference literally. Once again, give them some credit, they know the difference. They know it because of the way you approach Jesus differently at Christmas where his presence is serious, and paramount. The same differentation occurs at Easter, when in the Christian home the emphasis is again on Jesus, and not the peripheral keeping a lookout for the Bunny, and searching for the colorful eggs he has distributed from his basket as he hops about your yard.
At some point in their lives your children may question the concept of Jesus. At that point they have began their individual journeys on life's path. Their path will not be, can not be, exactly the same as yours. Once you have put up the road signs that you hope will keep them headed in the direction you desire, you must let go.
Anyway those are just some alternative thoughts for consideration. I must stop now because I think I may hear a rustling of the Easter Bunny, or is it Santa's reindeer outside my window. I must hasten to throw up the sash as my mind floods with happy memories of days long ago. :)
A few more thoughts on the subject; one must consider when they tell their small children there is no Santa, etc, that they may spread their belief to other children, sending them home in tears, leaving those children's parents with a quandry, caused by you. Just as you may not want other kids telling your children there is a Santa, the reverse is also true.
Further, if your children are in fact advanced enough to draw the conclusion when they find out on their own that there is no Santa, hence there may be no Jesus; they are also advanced enough to consider there may be no Jesus, when they hear folks all around them propound that there is a Santa, which you have told them is non-existent. The seeds of doubt are cast either way you approach it.
The ability to think critically (and rationally) can continue to improve well beyond early development. It should be hoped that your child would see the inference that maybe there is no jesus/god either. If they don't come up with that question on their own, you might have cause for concern. Think about it, if you don't believe in santa, then you won't be getting any toys. You better be good or you won't get any toys. If you don't believe in jesus, you won't go to heaven. If you are not good, you not only wont' be going to heaven, you will be tortured for eternity in hell. The stakes become so much higher and the illusion adults put on with children is quite convincing. I raised my children with the illusion of the tooth fairy, et al, but never exposed them to church or religion. Nor did I ever once tell them I didn't believe in a god or degrade any religion they might have been exposed to with friends. When at family or friends that bow their head in prayer, I did so as well. They did to, but we never discussed it. I wanted them to come to their own conclusions without my brainwashing them one way or another. They have grown up to be wonderful citizens and great parents themselves. They know right from wrong as learned from me and my wife and others around them. There is nothing in any religious book that has any extra value for them to learn that they have not already learned. But alas, fellow adults, I hate to break it to you this way, but it is time you learned that there really is no god or jesus. Now, let's just all be good and enjoy the wonderful life we have been blessed with (by nature).
News ~ I suppose technically I'm a "right-wing Christian", however, extremists are usually the problem. No matter what they stand for (Muslim, Christian, Tea Party). People hate Christians because of the extremists that throw Christianity in their faces. I've always been taught to show God's love instead of yelling it! That's what I try to do!
OKR ~ I love your insight, I've never thought of it that way. Maybe kids should get a little more credit than they get! And yes, I fully expect to get phone calls from angry parents telling me that my kid ruined Christmas. That's just a chance that I'm willing to take!
RT ~ It's normal for one to question is there is a God and if Jesus is real. That's something that every Christian I know has questioned at one point or another. That's when the choice is made and that's when they become Christians. Because they questioned and they believed. It's completely normal! Question for you, do your children now believe in God? Did they explore Christianity on their own?
It seems as though, when most people die, all of the sudden they become these awesome people that everyone loved and adored. They could have been the worst person on the planet, but as soon as they're dead, all that changes. It's very odd to me. All of that said, Smokin' has it right, people say things just to make themselves feel better, whether they believe it or not. A question for an Atheist...what is said at an Atheists' funeral? Every funeral I've been to they talk about how "they're in a better place" and "we'll see them again." What would be said at your funeral??
If there's no Santa, why did Grandma get run over by a reindeer? Was it really Muslim extremists? How about a Mormon presidential candidate? (grin)
All of the above!! :)
Good to see you posting SC. I always look forward to your next post. :)
An American Atheist Anthem
I am the American Atheist, and it is fresh waters that I bring.
I was dunked in Baptist creeks, and sprinkled in a Methodist spring.
For three hundred years I have walked across this desert land.
Now the time, and place are right, and I must make a stand.
I have cool waters waiting to soothe your fevered brow.
Won't you stop and drink with me for our time is now.
I won't go to war with you when you say God's on your side,
for your enemy also always says "it's to me that God is tied".
So instead sit with me, sip cooling water from my deep well.
Soon your head may clear, and your heart with love may swell.
You may come to see that vengeance isn't yours, nor is it of the Lord.
Nor is it the provenance of any rich men, nor even the tattered horde.
If you will just stay a while your thirsts may soon be quenched,
you may be freed of muddied waters with which you have been drenched.
When you leave please take a jug, share what we have had to drink.
For these fresh waters will help good folk to pause, refresh, and think.
Funny Cheetah! Darn you, I scratch my head, and come up with something, then you scratch your head, and come up with an original thought that tops mine. :)
At my athiest funeral I hope someone will say "He did his damnedest."
In fact, I think that's what I'll leave on my tombstone.
I reckon that will be enough.
I look forward to the rest.
Thanks Cheetah. By the way I'm a bettin' that your revision is better than the original, even though I haven't heard it. :)
Speaking of ND...is all O. K. with you, and yours? You haven't been around for a bit.
MyOp: "Question for you, do your children now believe in God? Did they explore Christianity on their own?"
No, and no.
"What would be said at your funeral??" I do not plan on having a funeral. I have made it known that my preference would be to designate a time and place where beer and wine can be served, and drinks are on me. There are secular funerals; have you not heard of them? I may suggest that OKR's Atheist Anthem be read.
News, that Rolling on evolution clip was a short 2:43 minutes of excellence!!!
Perhaps those of religous inclination could explain God's logic behind our current drought.
Punnishment? Retribution? Cruel Joke? Test of Faith?
I am positive jillions of prayers have been, and are being, thrown his way from just about every direction.
What gives? Many folks are suffering now. Many, many more will suffer in the near future. If it keeps up, many may starve due to high commodity prices.
I, personally, will go with "Cruel Joke" for now, as these little thunderstorms that make rain for 30 seconds and then disappear seem that way to me.
And here lies the problem with atheism, I have no one to blame and no one to ask for help.
Reckon I better get busy dealing with it on my own, eh?
Smart Dog, I continually hear of people praying for rain or other wishes to help get them and others out of a bad situation, yet I never hear of them admonishing the deity for putting them in the situation in the first thing. That is so ridiculous it is almost a joke. And then it will rain or something happens in their favor and low and behold, their prayers were answered. I've used the term "Let's pray for ...", but nowadays I usually catch myself and say "Let's hope for ...". It is relatively benign to say either one, unless the comment about prayer is said in earnest, then we're back to peddling ignorance again. It is no different that the person who claims god spared their life while killing other around them in the same car wreck.
Hell of a baptism there, eh News?
I love that movie.
I had a grandpa who was born in 1900, had six brothers, and was a bluegrass musician. Family get togethers were always country music hoe downs as all the brothers played instruments.
As a kid in the 60's, it shames me to admit, I thought it was lame. Youth is wasted on the young. At least it was in my case.
Mom always said he spent some time in the county lock-up for making moonshine down near Slater, where they were from. He and his brothers apparently played at barn dances in that area fairly regularily when they were young.
Now, whenever I see this movie, I think of him and could imagine him smack dab in the middle of it.
He worked for the railroad for quite a while. When he passed I inherited his shotgun, guitar, a fiddle, diamond ring, and his dad's pocket watch.
Somebody stole his guitar from me in a burglary in the mid 70's. A relative took his pocket watch from me more recently. A staunch christian, by the way.
I still have the rest.
Gave my son his name in the middle, hoping some of that old feller's chi would rub off on him. He was quite a character. A very talented self-taught musician, and apparently a pretty good gambler. I wish I would have been more mature as a kid, as I am sure I didn't learn as much from him as I could have.
Wel, I got a little off topic on that last post, I reckon.
So, let's get back. Religous believers, where was your god during the latest round of American terrorism?
Punishment for me asking the question?
Test of faith?
Retribution for medical pot in Colorado?
This gets to the root of my atheism.
If the Christian God exists, and he plays these kinds of "test of faith" with "free will" games, then he is not something that I feel deserves to be worshiped.
Not at all.
My view of this incident?
It's another wacked out person who lost control of his emotions and himself, and following some kind of idiotic rationalization, committed horrendous acts of violence to prove some kind of insane point.
The shooter is responsible. Not the devil, not god, not me or you. He made a narcissistic choice to do what he did and totally disregarded his fellow man.
From my soap box, the guy doesn't deserve to breathe anymore of our air. Don't need the bible to figure that one out.
I'm sure you already knew this News, but I was referring to home grown terrorists.
Terrorists are criminals. Nothing more and nothing less. Plain old criminals taking the lives of others to prove insane points.
That's why I always chuckle at the "War on Terror."
Like some have said, "How do you have a war on an emotion?'
From my point of view, "War on Terror" is just another one of those glittering generalities politicians spew that mean absolutely nothing but sure sounds good to the folks back home.
Al Quieda, and all those other 'terrorist organizations' are plain old organized criminals. To declare war on them actually gives them some level of credibility, as if they are a valid political entity, or have valid political ideology.
Criminals. Investigate, arrest, convict, punish. If they resist arrest, shoot 'em.
I wonder how long it would have taken Seal Team 6 to get Osama if we hadn't gotten sidetracked by our two-front "War on Terror" and fruitless nation building exercises.
For sure less human life would have been lost in the process, and at a significantly lower cost in dollars.
ND, I find myself in and out of this blog myself, depending on spare time. There is an appeal for reading and commenting here, and I think it probably works somewhat as therapy for me. It gives me a chance to voice an opinion on something that is important, yet something that I really don't talk about much outside this blog. Of course, coming from an atheist point of view (that word just is poisonous sounding), it is still something one needs to know their surroundings before proclaiming. This blog allows anonymity. Besides the therapy, maybe the larger positive (I hope) is that there really are others who read this blog who just don't care to comment for whatever reason, and my hope is that it will give those who have always had doubts about their own disbelief in god the opportunity to know they are not only NOT ALONE, but are actually part of a large number of disbelievers around the world.
I find your views about potential supernatural forces very refreshing. You seem to come from an Indian culture spirituality, perhaps akin to what I call a "hippie spirit". Although I will argue against the existence of such spirits logically, I consider that spirit in a person a very beautiful thing, benign to those around them, although it usually manifests itself in a fun and loving personality, a personality that I've always enjoyed being around. In all, a wonderful thing.
Without possibly giving too much away, would you mind letting us know if your "new endeavor" is related to relationship commitments or job opportunity, and are you relocating? Good luck, regardless!
As I stated earlier, I suspect there are individuals that read this blog but do not comment. There are some true believers, and some doubters. Many "doubters" have been around nothing but true believers so long, that they wonder what is wrong with them for not being able to "just believe". They have been told that you just have to accept the lord as your savior and open your heart. But alas, they still have doubt. Had they been born in another country, they would have found the same pressure to follow Islam or one of dozens of other religions, and would have the same doubt. There are millions of people who do not believe in a supernatural power (at least a singular god), and if you are in that category, you might find solace in the fact that you are not only one of millions, you are in a group that also contains some of the most intelligent and influential people in the world. Granted, there are very smart people who are believers, and I am not saying that just because you believe you are inferior intellectually, but I am saying that non-believers represent the largest percentage of intellectuals in the world. Wikipedia has a list of proclaimed atheists that will amaze all of you. The list is broken down by profession (scientists, philosophers, educators, celebs, and more):
If you are a non-believer, not only should you quit asking yourself what is wrong with yourself, you might feel pride after going through this list of other non-believers.
Roy Rogers Riders Club Rules:
1. Be neat and clean.
2. Be courteous and polite.
3. Always obey your parents.
4. Protect the weak and help them.
5. Be brave but never take chances.
6. Study hard and learn all you can.
7. Be kind to animals and take care of them.
8. Eat all your food and never waste any.
9. Love God and go to Sunday school regularly.
10. Always respect our flag and our country.
Four out of ten ain't bad. ;)
Good stuff RT.
Well Nana I am relieved that you have promised to stop by now, and then to restore order to our very special nuthouse. :)
OkR, I'm nine out of ten.. maybe eight, so not bad for an atheist :-) Those are a good set of commandments to live by.
Yeh Nana agreed. I might have gone five, instead of four, but I was conflicted by eat all your food, but don't waste any. I kinda thought that was cover for gluttony. I also thought only half the neat, and clean rule was valid. ;)
So I decided that I could follow only rules 2, 4, 6, and 7.
I'm not saying I achieve all those Roy Roger's club rules; I'm saying there are at least 8 rules worthy to aspire to. Eat all your food and never waste any is maybe a little gray, although I still think it worthy. I'm sure that "club" was especially to give children some advice to help their parents so they would eat their vegetables as well as not to leave food on your plate to be thrown away (wasted). If you don't put it on your plate, it can be used as leftovers. So, I'm saying that's a good rule :-)
One of the rules I think is a little gray for me as well, and one that might initiate discussion with opposing views is the "always respect our flag and country". It is one that most everyone always agrees with as a "gimmee", but if you really think about it, can we respect something ALWAYS, even if you take a major issue with a current direction it has taken? We always hear that "we are the greatest" at everything, but that just isn't true all the time. I have to admit that if our country keeps tilting so far right and turns evangelical, I would prefer to try living in another country such as Denmark or France. That is not really practical for me, so it won't happen. However, I do find myself losing respect for our country (and our flag represents our country) when we are having so many red states shutting down women's health clinics because of the majority party's issue with abortion, refusal to go along with the ACA because they hate Obama when it is in the best interest of families who need it badly, continuing efforts to interject christianity in the public school, and continued effort to eliminate medicare by pushing it to be a voucher system, and refusing to budge on asking the one percenters to help out just a little more by paying a slightly higher tax rate during this economic crisis. I know any one issue might have some valid opposing debating points, but collectively this assault on the middle and lower class shows a true mean spirited bunch of money hungry hoarders gaining control that makes it difficult for me to maintain respect for our countries' direction. Should I still have complete respect for our flag and country?
This 4 minute clip by Ken Miller (a believer in god by the way) explains how DNA has helped prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is true. You don't have to be an atheist to understand that evolution explains how we evolved, but it does require ignorance to not accept the volume of evidence science provides to support it.
What I glean from OKR's Roy Rogers Rules is something that Christians can't seem to accept.
You don't need the bible to establish a system of morals and ethics.
Isn't that what this list of Rules does? Establish a pattern of behavior considered ethical by the Roy Rogers Riders Club?
So, why is it every time I enter into any sort of discussion with a religous person regarding ethics they can't seem to understand how you can have laws based on ethics without the dang bible.
Even Roy Rogers could establis a set of rules to live by. The Boy Scouts. The Marines. Every workplace on the planet. The list of folks who make "rules to live by" is endless.
My point is that each society is free to establish any system of laws based on any morality and ethics that they chose. It is not a foregone conclusion that you need an old book written by monks working for a former King of England to base them on.
Smart, thinking, folks with some level of intellect, common sense, and a good feel for what works among the tribe they are living in can do a fine job of establishing the ground rules for living in the tribe just fine without "divine guidance." That is my positionl
All divine guidance does for you is provide an unprovable excuse for why the rules say what they do when you can't justify them with plain old logic and reason. The old "because god said so" is used as reason in place of solid reason, or knowledge.
I think basing our system of laws on Roy Rogers Riding Club Rules makes just as much sense as basing the system on the King James Bible, so why not?
I still prefer logic, reason, debate, truth, honesty, and "the Golden Rule" as the prefered basis, but what the heck, I'm trying to expand my horizons, so let's give it a shot.
Whaddya say, Supreme Court? Roberts seems to be expanding his horizons also, so maybe it could happen.
Right On, Smart Dog. Well said. To add just a little per Nana's comment "many folks tend to get stuck in pre-adolescent club rules - they are short and easy and require nothing beyond memorization and righteous indignation.." -- Absolutely correct as well Nana. I certainly do not believe in "following" anybody's set of rules. Writing down rules should only be used to try and define the way an individual believes is the ethical and moral way to live, not the reverse. That is just trying to define the way we feel (already are). If you were to write down the major rules/philosophy on how you try to live your life, I'm confident I'd identify with 90+ percent of them. How we actually live our life can obviously go against a "rule" we proclaim we believe in. "4. Protect the weak and help them". Who can argue with that? Well, I believe we have a large number amongst us who might think they believe in that, but act like "exploit the weak and take all you can from them". But, they can't see the truth in the mirror because they have seen individuals who exploit the system and conclude that everybody is out to do that. Instead of working hard to fix the system that permits abuse, they would prefer to no longer help the weak and just shrug it off as EVERYBODY is a welfare freeloader, so shut the system down and let the proverbial "somebody" else help them. What is really a scary though is that if I do end up in hell, I'm going to be totally surrounded by right wing evangelical republicans. I'm sure they'll be disgusted with watching me drinking and having lots of guilt free sex :-) The good news though, that place is a total myth.
You guys are all awesome. :)
Smok'n, well put. I do not put you in the camp of what I call the "right wing nut cases" of which there are many. You have your own reasons for belief in christianity, and it sounds like you can accept most of the science by accepting that it was written by men and not necessarily the word of god... is that right or can you clarify?
Per your comment: "If the Bible is ancient words from ancient man describing a science they could not understand and not mere fairy tales for the faint of heart, then where does Jesus come into that picture?"
I think there are legitimate questions as to whether Jesus actually existed, and for some pretty good reasons. However, I am willing to concede that he probably existed and was the basis for a large following of believers. I don't think he is a direct comparison to a Jim Jones, but in terms of avid (or rabid) f0llowers, perhaps his followers were that strong if not stronger. I have read the entire bible, and in my opinion if you are going to have some person that believes they are some deity, at least jesus was more like the ultimate hippie, loving your neighbor, turn the other cheek, watching out for the down trodden, etc. I believe his delusion progressed fast over a short period of time. Besides psychopathic cult leaders, there has also been more benevolent cult leaders like Sun Myung Moon and others. So, I believe jesus was a cult leader in that he had a tremendous following. Most of the bible was not even written until something like 50 to 70 years after his death. Exaggeration takes place over short periods of time, so over half a century of the stories being verbally passed around by tribal men in a world where all earthquakes, tsunamis, and all other natural disasters were thought to have been punishment from the gods makes it more than plausible that they would have made him into a god. In fact, there were other men that also were deemed gods based on similar story propagation, and they can't all be true.
Now let me ask you, Smok'n, can you concede the slightest possibility that jesus was possibly just an exceptional man who had a following not unlike others I have mentioned?
Smok'n: "I don't think anyone who has actually taken the time to read the Bible can say they have found one word accredited to Jesus that is harmful to other people in any way. I hope for more in-depth dilogue."
I believe jesus did condone slavery and there are several excerpts in the NT that back that up. Here is just one: "Titus 2:9 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again". You would of thought that jesus would have been ahead of the curve on the issue of slavery, but he wasn't.
And jesus was not against killing children: Matthew 15: 1-4 "1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
Nine great non-believers in U. S. history.
SC: "Can I concede that Jesus may not have existed? I'm afraid I cannot."
That wasn't my question, as I concede that he probably did exist. Here is my question again:
Now let me ask you, Smok'n, can you concede the slightest possibility that jesus was just an exceptional man who had a following not unlike others I have mentioned?
An article written by Sheryl White of New Zealand made some points about the suggestion of teaching christian values in the public school system I found worth passing on:
Having a Christian-based values programme in schools is repugnant to me for two reasons: first, that it implies these values are somehow special to Christianity, whereas they are in fact human values.
They are espoused as worthwhile for human life as much by people outside of religious affiliation as those within it.
Secondly, the teaching of a fairy story as fact in our education system can't be justified on any level. As far as I'm concerned it will remain a fairy story until the second coming, until born-again Jesus turns out the loaves and fishes in front of my very eyes, water into wine etc. I'd be willing to rethink things at that point.
The full article can be found at:
Context, and nuance cause us some times to split hairs.
The culmination can cause us some times to have nightmares. ;)
Oh, by the way, that last bit of foolishness has nothing to do with the current thread, nor those participating in it. The topic is good, as are the participants. Is that clear, and straight forward? ;)
Does any one who posts here know rr3? If so can you share with us that he is O. K.?
r if you are still reading, and able to post let us know that you have just decided to quit posting. I hope all is well with you.
The same goes for you X-ray. :)
RT ~ Interesting article. I totally agree that "Christian values" are indeed more like "human values." There are some differences though (ex. sex, drinking, cussing, etc.) but for the most part they are human values that everyone should live by. In that article it was said that "I don't believe in any supernatural god. I believe what science has discovered about evolution, and also that science doesn't know everything." Science can't prove there's a God but they can't prove that there isn't one either.
Absurd is a little harsh don't ya think?? I like to think of it this way, when we are born we have no grasp of right and wrong. Our parents teach us, right? Well, in the begining they had no grasp of right and wrong so the "sky-daddy" aka God, our Father, told them. That again goes to those human values that we were discussing earlier!! I mean, some people believe that some of the 10 Commandments aren't as important as others (taking God's name in vain, worship other gods, keep the Sabbath holy, covet.) btw, I'm loving the discussions going on here. I'm getting quite the education!!
There is a lot of credible evidence that we are born hard wired to instinctively know right from wrong, i. e. morality is instinctive, an evolved survival trait. There is also documented evidence of animals, other than humans exhibiting altruism. You may find these links interesting. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=a...
Yes, News, I don't believe the Christian God had much input on the Code of Hammurabi, the Code of Ur-Nammu, the Laws of Eshnunna, the Hittite Laws, the Assyrian Laws, or the Lipit-Ishtar Code either.
All systems of laws regarding ethics and morality not based on mythology, but a set of rules governing family law, business law, and public morality that existed almost two millennia before Jesus was born.
Then we could review the Asian dynasties for their take on behavior in a successful society circa 2000 BC.
There are literally thousands, possibly millions, of examples of law, or "rules to live by," throughout history that do not rely on the existence of a supreme being, or the Holy Catholic Bible, in order to be relevant, enforceable, and appropriate to maintain order in a civilized society.
American Christians need to get that fact straight in their minds. Our system of laws, and the Constitution of the United States, are not patterned after the Christian faith. The Magna Carta, Roman Law, and the writings of the Greek philosophers had much more influence.
Apparently we need some educational standards in this country that require teaching of the truth regarding history. But alas, I reckon that would just provide something else to politicize and argue about eternally while being construed as an attack on religion when it is really just teaching fact based history.
And, yes, many of our founding fathers went to church and professed to be Christians. That does not automatically imply that our constitution was based on the bible. It is a coincidence. Literally.
In fact, although some of those fellows were Christians, even they realized the dangers of fundamentalist non-secular government. Why else have "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." as the first item in the Bill of Rights?
Religous freedom is great. You are free to worship as you see fit. But " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" seems clear.
The Gnostic Gospels are certainly interesting, along with the developments in Catholicism from the 4th century Council of Nicea through the medieval "Divine Right of Kings."
Popes and various leaders have been rewriting the Christian dogma for millenia. Yet folks today somehow think that the Holy Bible is the word of their God.
That it should be the legal basis for our system of laws seems the most uninformed opinion regarding modern politics of all.
News: "r may not see things the way a lot of other folks do, but that is also one of his best qualities -- rr is a maverick. He is a leader, not a follower. Ya gotta respect a fella like that, even if ya do disagree with his opinion."
News, I hope rr3 is well myself. However, a person does not get my respect (not that they should care) by continuing to display totally irrational thought processes, such as answering everything by more often than not, vaguely related quotes from the bible. If I actually knew the guy in person, there may very well be other reasons to respect him, but I can only respect someone's point of view on a blog when I feel they can make perfectly legitimate points. Rr3 has never done that. That does not mean I wish him anything other than to be well.
Since Boomer failed to respond to the return command I wonder what other failures he has had. If I was anyone who this dog had be used as the reason my vehicle was searched I would have his ability called into question by my attorney.
Good un News. "Every religion should be self critical, otherwise it soon degenerates into a self righteous hypocrisy." (Allan Watts in the clip you provided).
I got a copy of Watt's "The Way of Zen" in about 1960, and carried it as I rambled through the sixties, and seventies. He was one of my stronger early influences. I heartily recommend it to this day.
Expanding upon the above quote I think that every individual should be self critical. After all who has more evidence to conduct a rigorous examination than one's self? A failure to do so in the case of the individual would not necessarily result in degeneration into self righteous hypocrisy, but it will result in degeneration. Ya just gotta "clean house" from time to time. ;)
Spot on News. Many cults emphasize the giving up of self accompanied by slavish devotion to what the cult spokesperson tells them to think; whether, or not it is in line with documents that the cult is based upon.
Thus Cheetah SOME Christian sects deemphasize the particularly salient quote of Jesus that you provided. It gets in the way of the ego of the corporeal interpreter.
sc - just a question - when you say "organized" religions, do you mean those who congregate together? or do you mean those who have large corporate "headquarters" and large denominational "leaders" and the such? we are all - all christians anyway - called to "not forsake the gathering togther with others" ... that doesn't mean we are supposed to join some cult somewhere - but we are supposed to spend time in fellowship with like-minded believers.
Well, are you shuting this down because of one person's whining about not enough religious folk posting?
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