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Happy New Year!
RT I would like to ask why you think that God has to show you that he exist? You say science cannot disprove God but in the same paragraph you say science has disproved God. That is not a logical statement. You always refer to your thinking as rational but can you explain how it is rational? When did rational thinking come into existence?
rr3 were Neanderthals made in God's image?
rr3: "RT I would like to ask why you think that God has to show you that he exist?"
You asked what evidence would require me to see that god exists and I gave you my answer.
rr3" " You say science cannot disprove God but in the same paragraph you say science has disproved God. That is not a logical statement."
That is not what I said. Science is certainly reducing the possibility, but can never disprove something that is imaginary, just continue to fill in the gaps to the point of making it ridiculous for people to keep clinging to that possibility... just as science currently cannot prove that there is not some planet in another galaxy light years away that contains human life, although there is more evidence to support that possibility than for the supernatural.
rr3: " You always refer to your thinking as rational but can you explain how it is rational? When did rational thinking come into existence?"
For some of us, around the time we realized Santa was a man-made tale :-) Everyone has the ability to correlate most causes and effects, such as how fire burns and causes pain, so "I won't be doing that again". However, when there is a series of events that become slightly more complicated, it is difficult for many to consider the probability of an outcome based on combinations of causes. For a subset of that group it is just easier to chalk it up to magic, and when you have centuries of tribal man wading through their dangerous environments believing in all kinds of myths that have caused major catastrophes, it is quite easy to see how religions of all kinds, including strange ones even you wouldn't believe, get propagated. Even when Tebow loses, I see irrational people clinging to the idea that god still is on his side because he made sure Oakland lost. Fortunately for most, delusional thought in one area doesn't necessarily make them delusional in most other life skills.
This 12 minute YouTube link really touches on how the human mind has a strong affinity toward various religions. It is rooted in science, so there are short sections that will test your attention span some, but if you persist and really try to think what is being said, I believe you will find this attempt of a scientific explanation fascinating... it is all about "decoupled cognition". Rr3, remember the term "decoupled cognition".
That was a good question. You are right that, if I was born in another part of the world, there is a good possiblity I would be raised in a different religion, and if I had not accepted Christ as my Savior and asked that He forgive my sins, I would indeed have chosen hell as my eternal destination. My hope would have been that when a missionary or someone from my own country who had accepted Christ crossed my path, and shared the gospel with me, that I would have understood and believed. That would have been my only hope of being saved and choosing heaven as my final destination.
Something I want to be sure you understand though; I'm not going to Heaven because I was raised as a Christian. I am going to Heaven because I recognized Jesus as my Savior. I believe that He lived on this Earth, He was crucified and rose from the dead. By doing that He became the ultimate sacriface. I have asked Him to forgive me of my sins, and to come into my heart. I have chosen to have a relationship with Jesus whom I accepted as my Savior. That is why I am going to heaven because of the choices I made, not because I grew up in a Christian home or because God is sending me there. Everything that happens in my life, and in the hereafter is because God gave mankind free choice, and I chose Him.
Would a lost Amazonian tribesman who has never even seen a white man, let alone heard of Jesus Christ still go to hell?
For those who believe in Heaven, what do they imagine that Heaven to be like? I wonder if everyone imagines it the same or perhaps each has thier own idea of what heaven might be.
News, I don't where these places exist. I haven't been given a map or gps. :) But I have been promised to be taken to one or the other at some time given the choice I make here on Earth.
WTF, As I have stated, and had to apologize for before, I am not judge, nor jury concerning another person's choices or destination. My comments on this would be: it is not a white man he needs to meet, and since white men haven't been there according to your scenario, how do we know what or who he belives in?
I don't know what others' perception of heaven or hell is. For me heaven is the total presence of God without the presence of sin. Hell is the total absence of God, which would be bad enough, and the total presence of sin. (And, yes, there are places here I consider heaven on Earth also)
Let me rephrase. Should any person on this earth who has never even heard of Jesus Christ(and they are out there) be condemned to burn in hell? No choice can be made if the individual is completely unaware. Should that person, who may be a kind and loving soul be tormented for eternity? By the definintion of Christaianty, anyone who does not accept JC will burn in hell.
If someone had never heard of JC will they burn in hell?
"If someone had never heard of JC would they burn in hell?"
No, I don't believe they necessarily would. I have studied and researched my Bible thoroughly. To go to hell, you make the choice to go there by your rejection of JC as Savior. If someone had never heard, how could they make that choice? I'm talking about those who have truly never had the opportunity. In this day and age, with the extensive exploration and communication capabilites, those people are probalby few and far between.
Because you have found "no such places exist anywhere inside the Universe or at least if they do they must be completely undetectable...which would violate the laws of physics...and we know no one can do that," you have come to the conclusion that they do not exist. Because I can't give you their exact location I must be teaching myths. Okay...
No I can't give you an exact location. but I can tell you I believe they exist outside this universe. Why? Deduction and reasoning... Scientists tell us the universe hasn't always been here. I believe God has and God created this universe. Since He created it, He must have done so from heaven which would place it outside the universe. Isn't it possible, you are just looking in the wrong place?
I can appreciate your answer. The problem for me is that I don't refuse the word of god, I refuse the word of man and his god is most likely a that of his own making.
WTF & News,
I can appreciate your doubts. I had many of my own. It was not until I started my relationship that I was more able to believe. There are still times when I read something, and I need to take time to research for my own understanding. I like to have my beliefs questioned for me to look for myself and see why I believe this. It doesn't mean others will come to the same conclusions I have, but it makes me more grounded; not just believing in "something" for the sake of believing. My quest for my latest degree has had me doing a lot of "researching".
Not to say I don't have faith. I have seen too many things happen that others, including doctors, have told me are impossible for me not to have faith. So yes I believe in miracles. I have had a few happen for me.
I think that is wonderful and I am happy for you as you don't seem to be the type that has a need to tell others how to live based on your faith. More power to you.
All I can do is share my beliefs, just as you share your's. I can't and am not trying to force anyone else into anything. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and we, as fellow human beings, must respect them. And I've made too many mistakes myself to cast the first stone at anyone else concerning their lives. Of course, I will say it again, I will be praying for you. That's also who I am and I can't help doing it. Once I come to know someone I just have to pray for them whether we share the same beliefs or different.
Dlkes: I believe as far as religion goes, that you live in a fairy tale world, where you certainly have every right to live in. Unfortunately, that world differs substantially from NanaDot's deist world, even thought she tries to point out common ground. A deist does not believe people are going to hell because they have not accepted JC as their savior. When people start to believe everyone that does not accept JC like you do will end up in hell, you have put yourself on a pedestal way above billions of people currently living as well as many billions who have come and gone over the thousands of years of mankind. You sound as if you are a very kind and caring person, but I'm afraid your view of the rest of humanity and our common situation on earth lacks true compassion. Happiness and bliss unfortunately are all too often derived from lack of understanding.
I live in the real world along with everyone else. I encounter the same day to day obstacles and I am just as much a sinner as everyone else. God's Word tells me that. It also tells me that the way of salvation is through Christ. I do not want to be on a pedestal. I am not better than anyone else! And I am NOT the judge of who will and will not be going to heaven and hell. Thank you.
Wow RT that Dr. Thompson is way out there. I see he worships the same evolutionary God that you and news does. I want to know at what point in the evolutionary process that you think rational thinking just happened. News I would relate to your description more as survival which we all have when we need it. But how did we get from a simple cell to a complicated life form that can think? Without God I don't think so but nice try though. I know the answer, if we can't explain it then it happened through the evolutionary process. Right again. Is that rational?lol
What will happen to the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? The bible says that God will judge all righteously. He wishes that all would be saved but will not force anyone to spend eternity with him. So we are free to accept him or reject him. There will be a stricter judgement for those that heard and rejected him.
rr3: "There will be a stricter judgement for those that heard and rejected him."
Is it the threat of eternal hell that is supposed to make me accept JC as my savior? If so, that is a cult, and it doesn't work for me. For those of you who feel they must blindly follow the writings as they interpret them of "their bible", I must ask if you ever have thought recently that it is possible that you are wasting a good percentage of your life on something that is totally man made? You do know that Mother Teresa came to that realization?
That's ok RT you are free to reject Jesus so you won't have to "waste" any time. What you believe or don't believe will not change reality. I don't have to worry because I won't be the judge, I only have to worry about myself.
That's not true. Are you not compelled by the bible to witness to as many as you can in hopes of thier conversion. Thier conversion better's your chances right?
Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
How can we say that people who have never heard the Gospel, therefore have not had a chance to accept or reject Christ, will be "judged" and possibly go to hell when scripture tells us that there will a representation from every nation, tribe, people, and language? This is why I feel that someone who has never heard will not necessarily go to hell.
dldes/rr3: Do you believe in any, all, or none of the faith healing ministries we've all seend and heard of?
I really hate to the change the subject,
I have read many of the blogs,but.....
for those who believe in evolution is there an explaination on the developement of "personality" in humans,? or are there just characteristics common to specific races?
I don't agree with Darwin on his view of the races, but I can't seem to find anything about the developement of "personality" in humanoids, or are we void of personality?
I also believe that the enlightened group here has knowledge that would surpass the explanations about races as set forth in "The Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin.
Input would be appreciated, if we are evolved animals then how did "personality" develope, and maybe even "self-awareness"?
Animals have a personality as well. Ever had pet?
I know that animals have traits -bred for specific jobs. Blue Heelers herd livestock and though smart they aren't much for bird dogs, though one may exist they are the exception not the norm. Beagles are hunters and trackers, though not much for guard dogs, though exceptions exist but not the norm, I hope you see the norm.
Do dogs have self awareness or even personalities or do we "place that on their abilities" due to an emotional response on our part? Can a dog really love - or just have the trait of being a pack animal?
I can't find anything that says they have personality, merely traits that exist and perhaps "personified" by the environment or conditions in which they exist?
Who knows. Next time you see a dog ask him.
Can a human really love - or just have the trait of being a social animal?
(It's one of our traits that we tend to forget humans are animals.)
Eastwood, concerning self awareness:
"In 1977 the psychologist Gordon Gallup published an article entitled "Self-Recognition in Primates." When chimpanzees born in the wild were confronted with a full-length mirror, at first -- like other animals -- they thought the reflection was someone else. But within a few days they had figured it out. Then they'd use the mirror to preen, and to examine inaccessible parts of themselves, looking over their shoulders to view their backs, for example. Gallup then anesthetized the chimps and painted them red -- in places that they could see only in the mirror. Upon regaining consciousness and resuming the pleasures of self-examination in the mirrors, they quickly discovered the red marks. Did they reach out to the ape in the glass? Instead, they groped their own bodies, touched the painted areas repeatedly, and then smelled their fingers. They trebled the time they spent each day examining their mirror images.
Among the other great apes, Gallup found mirror self-awareness in oranges, but not gorillas. Later, he found it in dolphins. We are conscious, he proposes, when we know we exist, and have a mind when we monitor our own mental states. By these criteria, Gallup concludes, chimps, orangutans, and dolphins are conscious and have minds"
"Elephants have recently demonstrated they too are conscious and have minds. "We report a successful mirror self-awareness elephant test and report striking parallels in the progress of responses to mirrors among humans, chimps, orangutans, dolphins and elephants," said Diane Reiss and her researchers. Their findings were reported in the October 2006 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."
There is even more current science concerning self awareness, but the preceding quotes are part of an interesting article that can be found at the following link that is a good start:
Eastwood: "I can't find anything that says they have personality, merely traits that exist and perhaps "personified" by the environment or conditions in which they exist?"
I don't know the scientific answer, but I know I've had dogs that show such strong emotion toward me that in my opinion it is a form of love. And most dogs can show happiness that is obvious by their wagging tail and what I call a happy tongue wagging. It probably can't be proven yet, but there probably will be a time when science can prove or disprove it. Until then, my bet is that they can feel love. What do you think?
Thank you for your insights.
Not wanting to "beat a dead horse" but............
We as humans learn that eventually we die, expire, push up daisys, well you get the picture.
MOST animals don't they really only register happiness,danger, etc.... but do you think that they come to the realization they too terminate?
I've worked at a meat packing plant and I've always been amazed that 2000 lb animals that could easily walk through a fence, jump it, etc don't - even when at the "slaughter house" chickens don't fly away at the farm, cows don't organize and crush the humans, or jump the fences and avoid human contact.
Is there a point to "humans" realizing that we have a end?
If animals have self realization, personalities are we committing an offense to nature by eating flesh?
I think animals have personalities but that doesn't mean they're not stupid or perhaps not self-aware.
Here is my totally non researched opinion on animal personality, and it is based on what I believe is evolutionary influences. Consider that there are some very backwoods people and tribal groups as well that show very little compassion. Also consider that all non-domesticated animals must spend most if not all their time worrying about survival. They are very "hardened" to do what it takes to survive each and every moment of every day. Just think of how tough a life even our domesticated dogs appear to be able to handle from our perspective. They don't appear to have a problem taking a piece of meat right out of the dirt and eating it. Part of that is physiology, where they can't easily try and clean their food or wipe their chin. Us humans were probably very much non-compassionate beings in our early evolution, killing whatever was in front of us to survive and showing no emotion or mercy about the death of anything. However, as there is more leisure time as well as time no longer spent on having to hunt for food, we have more time to "frolic" and "contemplate", perhaps become more compassionate for all things around us. Our domesticated pets have evolved ever so slowly so they too don't have to rip something's throat out so they can eat it to survive. The wolf instincts are not completely gone in our dogs, and evolution's extremely slow process of change has not removed ALL the wild from our domesticated pets (nor all humans for that matter), but I believe the trend for us and our pets is a slow drift away from killing things to survive. I certainly don't know, but I think evolution is the dominate factor in what we perceive as personality, or lack of it.
How do we know when we get our minds wrapped around being 'part of' the world?
Would believing in evolutionary influences be the same as believing in God?
We would know it rr3 when we see ourselves using only what we need, and stop grasping for what we want. We can do that only when, and if, we as a species recognize that all life is interconnected, precious, and not to be violated outside basic needs. That along with the realization that we preserve our species in the long run by preserving other species in the short run.
Then, and only then, we will know that we have our minds wrapped around being part of the world.
My last comment begs the question, but how will we ever get to that point?
I believe that the only way we will ever get to that point is by a great humbling. I believe that eventually the great humbling will come largely from our own destructive actions. But first our destructive instincts will crescendo. We will over populate, and over consume, until most of us die. Then the few that remain will learn to conserve, and not destroy, partly from the humbling, and partly because the meager resources available to us will leave no alternative.
A bleak forecast most will think, but that is not the case. I believe that the forces of evolution are on our side, which is an oblique salutation to the unrealized promise of human kind, and optimism at the deepest level. What difference is it in the larger scheme of things if there are ten billion of us, or three million?
There is more than one way to project the success of a chosen people. ;)
News, that was a very interesting video, and does help understand how we started to gain some leisure time, albeit not much. Grain made the biggest difference in that it allowed them to stay in one place. Thanks.
Nana, I think your inner hippie wants to believe you could just walk into an early human enclave with open arms and because they painted buffalo or deer on their caves they must have been compassionate people. Even if you ran into them at a time they had plenty of food, your strange presence would have probably brought immediate hostility. Humans who had to struggle extremely hard for survival probably would be having you for dinner. I'm talking about thousands of years ago, not hundreds where perhaps you are imagining Native American tribes. But even hundreds of years ago, some Native American tribes were very savage in their treatment of other tribes and individuals. Have you read the Lewis and Clark encounters with many Native American tribes and how brutal some of those tribes could be? Now go back thousands of years prior to that and imagine what it would be to encounter early humans. It would be safer to be on foot in east St Louis at 1 am on Friday night than encounter early man :-)
It occurs to me that those of us who post regularly on this blog reveal more about who we are than what we know.
Excavation of the remains of humans has given us physical evidence of the compassion of early humans. Remains of adults with severely handicapping disabilities that originated at birth have been disinterred.
Nana: "The Western world has treated them like all the other animals on the planet- how's that for 'savagery'?"
Agree. Just a slower form, and possibly more cruel. Instead of just killing them, we tried destroying their culture. Now, that's the inner hippie in me that sometimes surfaces, which I hope has some redeeming value :-)
OKR: "Excavation of the remains of humans has given us physical evidence of the compassion of early humans."
Oh, I'm not saying they didn't love their offspring or didn't often have affection toward their fellow clan members. I'm saying the majority of early men could probably kill both beast and other humans with very little (if any) remorse or compassion for that life. I believe compassion was probably rarely exhibited or felt 20 to 200 thousand years ago by early man, and has grown gradually from evolution. I believe our emotional traits were more akin to that of a wolf than what we see in modern man.
RT so do you see, since the birth of humans, an ongoing conflict between altruism, and territorialism? If so, do you believe that either has become dominant over the other, or are we still parallel to wolves, in that we will give our all to protect the integrity of the pack (tribe) and its territory, individually, and collectively? Why do we, if in fact we do, extend altruism beyond the tribal level? Is it a result of instinct, insight, or something else?
News: "I disagree with your assessment of what you think the behavior of Homo sapien, Sapien was likely to be (violent towards other humans)."
I'm fine with that. I recognize I could very easily be wrong, although I don't think so. I maintain that people born and raised under very extreme conditions for survival, especially very early man, might very well have the compassion more like a Bengal Tiger than a wall street protester. Just like with modern man, it could also very significantly depending on which group you might wander into.
"Then we shall... be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."---Stephen Hawking
What's your point? Is your point that since Hawking mentions God then there must be a god?
Like the rest of us there are many things Hawkings doesn't know.
Hawking's response to the question "Do you believe in God?"...
Hawking: "Yes, I do, if by God you mean the embodiment of the laws that govern the universe"
Can something that begins to be come from something that didn't exist?
rr3: "Can something that begins to be come from something that didn't exist?"
Answer: According to physiscist... "yes"
Hard for me to understand, so I have to take it with a "grain of salt". But, writings of tribal man, not so much.
The question is really too difficult for the vast majority of us to understand. Even if your answer is that "god did it", then what created god? How can god exist from nothing?
The thing that natural man can't understand is that God always existed. Unless God chooses to enlighten you then you will never understand. I can only hope that he chose you for eternal glory instead of eternal damnation.
Romans 8:30 (NASB95)
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4 (NASB95)
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
The common misconception is that Jesus died for ALL sins. If that were the case then everybody would be destined for heaven. But we know that everybody will not choose to believe.
You're right news God spoke it into existence. Very good.
Another example that God always was.
1 Corinthians 2:7 (NASB95)
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
News why do you think God is subject to time and physical laws? You want to have God in your own box but then if that were true he wouldn't be God now would he. I believe God spoke the universe into existence. Did it happen over millions of years or in an instant we don't know. But I can't believe in the magic that it came from nothing without a cause. If you watch a magician with a hat, he shows you it's empty and then he reaches in a pulls out a rabbit do you believe he magically made that rabbit appear out of nothing? I mean there was nothing in the hat. But yet you accuse Christians of believing in magic. No news that dog won't hunt mate. Try again.
Hebrews 11:3 (NASB95)
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Psalm 97:6 (NASB95)
The heavens declare His righteousness, And all the peoples have seen His glory.
Some see and believe others see and deny the evidence of God and choose to believe what man declares as evidence. Whatever will fit their theory.
Rr3: "I believe God spoke the universe into existence."
In the words of Cheech..... "far out, man"
BTW, just to let you know, capitalizing He, Him, His, a) doesn't make him a deity, b) doesn't make him a him, and c) doesn't make it true :-) OK, just an atheist attempt at humor..
News in England that I hope will lead the US to take a simlar path (some day):
"The Department for Education has revised its model funding agreement, allowing the education secretary to withdraw cash from schools that fail to meet strict criteria relating to what they teach. Under the new agreement, funding will be withdrawn for any free school that teaches what it claims are "evidence-based views or theories" that run "contrary to established scientific and/or historical evidence and explanations".
Ha! Ha! RT would that be similar to your opinion of your thinking being rational? Ha! Ha! Just a little humor there buddy. Then if that happens in England I guess we can throw the 'evolution theory' out the window. I hope it happens too, RT. I agree.
Can we detect the non-physical?
rr3, glad you agree. Of course you are somehow clinging to the non-accepted view that creationism is "evidence based" (which cannot be tested) and that Evolution is somehow "not evidenced based" (which is unanimously accepted, even by the overwhelming majority of the world), led by fact based science. So, what you are agreeing to would thwart the religious right's push to insert creationism in our science or biology classes.
You know what they say, "What's good for the goose."
WERE YOU ONCE A FISH?
Proven a hoax in the 1800's but yet is still in school textbooks today as fact.
Everything in the bible is supposedly fact so What's your point? You're the one screaming about specifics in the political blog so come on,let's have it.
What happened before the 'BIG BANG'?
But wtf I am just being perspicacious!!!
By golly I think she's got it!!
Listening to the arguments of extremely religious people has led me to the following conclusion: The survival of our planet and our species will depend on the trend of governments over time to rid themselves of all religious affiliations. That is, not to suppress religion, but to make sure religion has no influence in each country's government. For that to happen, we also need the trend to be toward some form of democratization for all governments as well. However, it is obvious based on our own government that there will be a continuous push by irrational religious groups to influence government. This will make it hard for rational people to refrain from pushing back hard against these religious groups, temping governments to ban religious activity all together. I hope it doesn't come to that, but irrational people certainly make it difficult on the rest of us.
It's beyond irrational, the are simply hysterical.
And you call us irrational??? hahahahahaha Now that is funny folks.
I just wanted to say a quick "Thank You" to everyone commenting in this forum. It has assisted me immensely with my recent classroom discussions and psych papers. It's also good to have differences of opinion generated to make me use my brain more. I used to just worry about getting the highest score by putting back onto paper what was taught in the classroom. Now I like being sure where my mindset is. Thanks again, and keep posting. Even if I don't have time to comment, I do love the thought provoking entries.
Post when you have time Dlkes. Good luck with your academics.
RT I read your conclusion several times and realized that it is not anything new. Throughout out history religious activity has been banned but Christians still secretly meet, obtain bibles and if caught could pay with their life. We see that today but it doesn't make the headlines much. Man has tried to destroy God's word but have never succeeded. I would like to think that if I faced the decision to deny Christ I could live or uphold Christ I would pay with my life I hope I would choose the latter. Do you think in your case if you were faced with the decision to uphold Christ you would live or to deny Christ you would die would you still deny Christ?
rr3: "Do you think in your case if you were faced with the decision to uphold Christ you would live or to deny Christ you would die would you still deny Christ?"
Answer: I'd be lying, but I'd uphold christ so I wouldn't die. Lying about a fictional character is not immoral, but I'd lye about a lot to keep from dying. To believe in some supernatural being so much that you would give up your life puts you in a category not unlike the World Trade suicide group.
rr3: "Throughout out history religious activity has been banned..."
I'd prefer to go after all religions via taxation if they try to influence politics or public education. If they are performing subversive acts, then prosecution would be in order. Go to your place of worship and be with whomever your want and perhaps you can retain your special tax exempt status.
Would you also tax atheism?
OK Reader asked you a specific question and I couldn't find where you answered it. I'll post his question again and maybe you can dazzle us with a specific answer.
"rr3 were Neanderthals made in God's image?"
How do you know that news? If you are correct then we ought to be able to track time back to the exact second that it began shouldn't we?
How about this for a shot in the dark?
In a million years if Marshall was not here, but the only skeleton to survive were that of a MVC Basketball player standing 6'6" remained, would we conclude that all residents of Marshall stood over 6'?
To be made in the image, might mean something more than physical? perhaps the ability to discern right from wrong, or atleast abstract reasoning?
I don't think that many people who claim to be Christians, or religious people would believe that God would need a finger, or a back.
A spirital entity probably doesen't need a physical body with its limitations to exist.
Perhaps he revealed himself that way in some instances so a primitive man could have something to relate to?
Just a thought.
Reading about taxation of churches, a point was made that if they tried to influence politics, or education they should lose their tax exempt status.
Remember when some churches give up their tax exempt status concerning the last presidential campaign?
If churches are reported as giving political advice on who to vote for, etc the IRS does pull the tax exempt status. Investigation is required.
Could this explain the weak anemic churches that exist today? Why moral values are only relative, and not absolute?
Hey Rational Thinker-
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but to accept death instead of denying a beleif in your personal savior is about makeing a committment to what you believe to be true isn't it?
The world trade suicide group didn't just uphold their belief in "their salvation" but in this instance wasn't the point to "kill or murder" those of a different belief?
Isn't in these two circumstance a difference in motive? One of self-sacrifice, the other of self-sacrifice and the death of infidels?
I probably misunderstood, forgive me if I miss the point,
If God exists, why can't atheists find Him?
You gonna answer the question or not?
I think the question should be: Does anyone have convictions or beliefs they would be willing to die for? Is your conviction and/or belief that strong? Those who believe in the Big Bang theory, would you die for your beliefs? Those who believe there is no God, would you be willing to die for that belief? Those who are Christians, would you be willing to die for your belief in God? I don't think it involves suicide bombers or anyone of that nature. What it involves is, if someone held a gun to your head and asked if you believed a certain way, and knowing that to admit to your belief meant certain, instant death, would you take a stand? Is there anyone willing to take that type of stand? Does anyone have that much of a conviction in their belief?
Check the mirror!!!
Well put dlkcs! I would rather die and go to heaven then live to later suffer hell.
As to atheists finding God,
Isn't there a saying probably secular - There are none so blind as those who will not see?
Aren't people alot like the pets humans keep? Mainly but not limited to cats and dogs?
When I come home the cat I feed, take to the vet, protect, provide shelter and care for acts like a "god" because I serve it, but my dog on the other hand comes running to me, wants to go for rides, barks at strangers, lets me know when he needs out, etc.... in short perhaps he wants to serve his little puny version of a "god'?
Perhaps we are more like cats and dogs than we realize?
WTF, Those questions are for me as much as for anyone. I would like to think I would be able to die for my beliefs. But it would be with God's help, no one else's. Unfortunately, I just have to look at Peter, who was one of the disciples, to know that we are all imperfect humans. Even he failed the first time when he denied Christ three times before the crock crew. I would hope that I would follow his later examples instead of his first. Would you care to give your thoughts as to your answers to these questions or they private?
I think the question is flawed from the begining. People can speculate but no one really knows what they would do until and unless they are faced with a gun to the head situation for real.
Our healthcare has "evolved" leaps and bounds in the last generation alone and can prolong your life 5,10,15 or more years.
Do you have a doctor? Do you fight to stay healthy and to live as long as you possibly can?
Why wouldn't you just let things happen naturally and die when your body (god) says it's time? Would that not put you with god that much earlier? Why would you fight a natural death?
Kind of like the song that says, "I want to go to heaven but not tonight". As Christians we can look forward to being with Christ but we don't want to give up what we have here. Just human nature. We like material things but we won't take any of it with us. There is only one thing that promises eternal life and that is Jesus. And I don't like the alternative.
So you want to stay here because you like material things and not because you want to spread the word of Christ? Interesting.
You wouldn't give up what you have here to go to heaven earlier in a natural way? What does that say about heaven?
There's nothing here that you would want to take with you but it's also the reason why you are not ready to go to heaven right now? Just human nature, right?
It's also human nature not to buy into a bunch of ancient, tribal, flat earth nonsense and for that I'm to be punished?
I guess what you're saying that you'll go to heaven when "you" want on "your" terms? I'm sure St. Peter will be happy to hear that.
Well, If I were you I wouldn't be so sure that you have a valid ticket to get through the golden gates.
You talk the talk don't but you sure don't walk the walk.
Dlkes you said "I think the question should be: Does anyone have convictions or beliefs they would be willing to die for? Is your conviction and/or belief that strong? Those who believe in the Big Bang theory, would you die for your beliefs? Those who believe there is no God, would you be willing to die for that belief?"
I think that people would be more likely to give up their life for a religious belief that entails a paradise after death, than for beliefs such as atheism, or scientific theory.
That, especially so if the religious belief precludes reaching that paradise if the belief is renounced. The stronger the individual faith, the more meaningful the loss of salvation. It is easy to see that some people would fear the loss of a grand after life more than torture, and or death. From such circumstances martyrs are made.
For the scientist it would work in the opposite way. The stronger the faith in the validity of the scientific point, the easier it would be to publically renounce it when subjected to extreme duress. That strong faith that the science was true would allow the individual to know that no matter what he/she said it would have no effect on what is, over the long haul, including the individual's reputation. That would be especially true if the scientist recanted as soon as she/he escaped harms way. It is more difficult to martyr one self to affirm what one believes to be the obvious.
It is an even simpler choice for the atheist. The atheist believes that there is no retribution for making the obvious choice when a gun is held to one's head. The atheist simply relies on the cornerstone of atheist belief, rationality, and says, "only a dang fool would argue the point with a gun to one's head".
By the way, what are you doing messin around here when academia is calling? ;)
By the way Rr3, you still haven't answered my previously posted question, to wit.
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jan 2, 2012, at 1:22 AM
I wish you would answer that question"
"Neanderthals made in God's image."
I believe that Neanderthals were made in God's image, as well as people with Down's syndrome, etc. I don't think they were a lesser people, do you?
I stand 5'10" tall and bench over 300 lbs, I was considered a fair size guy back in high school, but have you looked at the H.S. kids lately? I look alot of them in the chin, and they're tall, and bigger - evolution - I don't think so, mainly a change in diet and chemical additives. John Wayne was supposed to be huge at around 6'2"and 220 lbs - look at alot of the college kids today, he wouldn't be so huge in comparison.
Ability to reason between right and wrong and to seek out information in the image of God.
As to leaving this old earth? I can't wait to be in the presence of God, but I'm reluctant to leave the earth He provided.
As to staying healthy and seeing the doctor - I go because I don't care for prolonged physical discomfort, and I try to be a good steward of the body he provided me - thus preventive care, exercise, and try to maintain a health lifestyle, also life is more than just us, we do owe a certain amount of loyalty to provide for our loved ones as long as possible.
WTF, I agree that no one can say for sure until they are in that situation. When my oldest son was 4 weeks old, my late husband went on an all night fishing trip. A little after midnight I heard our front door open and close. My first reaction was panic, but that was quickly followed by action. I thought about our gun, but was sure I would shoot myself in the foot. So instead I reached for my baseball bat. I called out, "Who's there?" to let the "thief" know that there was someone in the house who knew they were there. I received no answer, but could hear them coming closer. I readied myself and as they walked even with my door I swung, for their head, realizing at the last moment that it was my husband, who had become bored, stopping before I drove his nose into his brain. The running joke at my house from then on was a loud cry of "Honey I'm home, don't swing!" I hope that I would have the same fortitude if the other situation arose.
As for why I take care of myself, there are 2 reasons. First, my body is the temple of God. As such I take care of it for him. And one of my resolutions is to do a better job at it. The second is I don't know how long God has planned for me to be on this earth since I have walked away from 2 wrecks that professionals tell me I shouldn't have walked away from let alone survived. I believe in quality over quantity. So I want quality of life for as long as God has planned for me to stay here. When He's ready to call me home, I'm ready to go. My only regret would be that I have family members who are not saved yet.
OKR, I know I should be in academia, but you all keep sucking me in. I enjoy the discussions immensely!
And I know this is not my question, but, God made man in His own image. I do not believe that was an outward image. I believe it was on the inside. God gave us the ability to reason and understand, just as we are doing in these posts. He also gave each of us a soul. Since God made man in His own image, if Neanderthals were men, then they would have been in His image.
I don't have all the answers, don't really no much of anything, but - your'e right I have a fear of Hell,
that fear is pale compared to the love I have for my Savior.
You can have both Love and Fear for your parents, Love for all they provide and fear of punishment, but generally don't we love our parents more than fear?
I didn't choose to worship the God of Abraham - because of fear, but out of Love.
I hope I never recieve what I really deserve, and with the acceptance of Jesus as my Savior I no longer need fear Hell. There are many things I choose not to do (sin) not out of fear but out of gratitude, respect, love and the appreciation of all that is given to me - and especially the salvation he provided.
A person who claims to be a person of faith, but doesn't live the life is generally considered a hypocrit, right?
What about those who profess a "healthy skepticism, or atheistic viewpoint and yet still attend a place of worship?
Are they a hypocrit to their "disbelief"? or merely a "seeker of the truth"?
It just seems alot or rocks get cast on this forum.
Wtf I think your vendetta against me is very obvious in your post that are directed at me. Of course you will deny that but that's ok the truth is in the postings. You evidently didn't read my post very well or you misunderstood completely and you also completely missed my answer. You will deny that but regardless of my answer would you be satified with it? Dlkcs and Eastwood gave superb answers which should satisfy you since they didn't come from me. Seems that any dialogue of yours directed at me is not really dialogue at all. But the way I see it if you are focused on me then you are leaving someone else alone. I enjoy the dialogue with News, Nana, RT, SC and even Okr. There are others I am sure I missed. We might take jabs at one another from time to time but we move on. You seem like you are stuck with nothing to offer. I am sure you will come up with some way to say that I am not really a Christian and I have no credibility and that's ok. You will also deny this the same that you deny God. One thing about this life is that I don't have to worry what you or anyone else thinks about me or my intelligence. I only have to satify God and fail miserably at that. I can be point blank in my defense of my faith and the word of God. But God don't get stuck on what I do wrong or if I don't say something right he picks me up so I can dust off my feet and move on. I will keep you in my prayers and pray that you can move on. I can only hope that you would seek God with the attitude that you might find him. I do apologize for whatever I did to make you feel this way toward me. In Christ rr3.
I have never denied an exsitence of a god. I only deny what many state as fact about our origin and our fate as humans. I can't say there is or there isn't a god for sure and frankly, neither can you. Nice letter. I suppose you now you are assuming the part of the victim?
Eastwood as unfortunate people with Downes syndrome have the same DNA as the rest of us homo sapiens I wouldn't put them in a separate category. Neanderthals were a different species, purportedly with a different DNA.
Thank you for responding to my question that I had asked rr3. He has long avoided a response. I suppose the question has stumped him.
Lets consider Neanderthals for a moment, how about diet contributing to the physical appearance of ancient man?
The average soldier during the civil war was only about 5'6" and around 140 lbs. Remember Scarlet O'Hara and the perfect waist?
Today it would seem that most of the teenage girls are nearly the size of those civil war soldiers!
It seems that diet,nutrition, easier life styles, etc have contributed to ht/wt of our people - Missionaires giving iodine to inland islanders in the phillipines found that it actually reduced the rate of retardation and increased the heighth of the natives.
An example of diet changing humans could be that of breast reduction being one of the fastest growing cosmetic surgeries in England, due to so many females with DD sizes. They suspect the injection of female hormones in chickens, eggs, etc as a contributor.
Perhaps some of early mans characteristics such as ht/wt/ facial appearance had to due with dietary intake?
It might be interesting to compare the facial structures of different aboriginal tribes with the stereotypes of "early man".
Truly variety is a wonderful thing -
Hey, wondering -
If neanderthals are considered fully homo sapien, yet not animal, what impact does this have on evolutionists?
Did human or homo sapiens just spring into existence?
I don't know if anything just sprung into extistence.
Eastwood: "A spirital entity probably doesen't need a physical body with its limitations to exist. Perhaps he revealed himself that way in some instances so a primitive man could have something to relate to?"
That's a whole lot of unsure speculation about how the sky daddy works. How can you then be so confident such a supernatural being exists? I can somewhat understand the deist point of view, but not the Christian or Muslim view.
Eastwood: "Isn't in these two circumstance a difference in motive? One of self-sacrifice, the other of self-sacrifice and the death of infidels?"
My comment had nothing to do with motive. It has everything to do with believing so strongly in an afterlife that you are giving up your life to join your creator because you interpret the teachings to mean that you are doing so because that is what he wants. If there is a common motive, it is to live forever in some form of blissful state I suppose.
Rr3: "If God exists, why can't atheists find Him?"
Great question. Just turn it around for the answer. Atheists can't find him because HE doesn't exist. The religious can't find him either, they just imagine they can.
Dlkes: Those who believe in the Big Bang theory, would you die for your beliefs?"
Dlkes: "Those who believe there is no God, would you be willing to die for that belief?"
Answer: I already answered that in an earlier post, but here is the answer from me again: NO. Dlkes, life is more precious to an atheist because we know this is all we get. Most of us also extrapolate that life to all other life in that the sadness of finality exists when other creatures die as well. We know they are gone forever. I personally think that makes atheists appreciate life much more so than those who believe in an afterlife.
WTF, your post that ended with "You talk the talk but you sure don't walk the walk" was awesome. Your insightful responses were some of the best I've seen here. Also, you definitely nailed rr3 to the cross (so to speak) LOL
Eastwood: "Did human or homo sapiens just spring into existence?"
Wow, that response is why we need to teach evolution in school and keep creationism away. It's not your fault Eastwood, it is just lack of information about evolution on your part, which ironically has been thwarted by the religious right, especially in our country. Most highly educated religious people understand that evolution is true.
Dlkes: "As for why I take care of myself, there are 2 reasons. First, my body is the temple of God. As such I take care of it for him."
Ok, now that sounds absolutely ridiculous. You are taking care of your body for HIM? I am reluctant to ask, but would you mind trying to explain why "for HIM"?
OKR: "It is an even simpler choice for the atheist. The atheist believes that there is no retribution for making the obvious choice when a gun is held to one's head. The atheist simply relies on the cornerstone of atheist belief, rationality, and says, "only a dang fool would argue the point with a gun to one's head".
Thanks for your comments, very rationally made, and thank you.
IF neanderthals aren't a relative to homo sapien, and aren't considered a homo sapien then can you produce a missing link?
Or are you suggesting that both neanderthal and homo sapien are two branches of a common trunk - if so then why no common or relative DNA link?
As for the "religious right" thwarting the teaching of evolution - is science an "evolving" (tongue in cheek) discipline?
With new information coming every day don't our perceptions change?
So why then is Evolution the only scientific theory that must be protected by law?
Hey okay for an oxymoron, how about Intelligent Design putting evolution into motion?
Science is an evolving discipline. Science also puts forth theories as they don't profess to have all the answers. Science is in the business of generating new questions.
We all know where organized religion stands. Flawed theories bolstered by absolute certitude and willful ignorance that results in the arrogant application of exclusion and persecution.
What the f---
If the evolution theory is so good, then why does it need protected by law?
Why is it so sacred that even teaching the flaws or weaknesses of the "theory" are prohibited?
Sounds like evolutionists are much like the over zealous rantings of the religious right.
I wonder, if I'm no more than an animal, without a soul, then why shouldn't I endulge in my pleasures?
Take what I want, take who I want, and subdue those who oppose me.
If death would only yield eternal sleep, then when I'm caught I can end my life at any time, rather before the police catch me or when I'm wearing diapers in the nursing home?
Maybe this reasoning is what enabled Hitler to commit the terrible acts he did, or the rationale behind the moral decline of society?
wait, can't talk morals + religion = knowing what you would like to do but doing what is right, today though the vogue fashion is ethics = knowing what is expected but still doing what we want?
Eastwood the theory of evolution is just that a theory; a theory is a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena.
On the other hand Creation "theory" is a misnomer. At the most it is actually only an hypothesis because it can't be tested. A hypothesis is a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture, or to guide investigation (working hypothesis).
Hence the theory of evolution is science, built upon an ever expanding body of evidence. It belongs in the realm of scientific education.
Creationism built upon Bible stories that can not be scientifically tested, nor verified, properly belongs in the educational realm of metaphysics, and theology.
You can't protect an orange's status as an apple, which sounds foolish, but at the core is no more foolish than the illogical wave of evangelistic effervescence surrounding the desire to teach religion as science.
I don't claim to be an expert on evolution itself or the legalities of teaching it and never claimed that I was. You may want to direct that question towards someone with a little more knowledge on the subject.
As far as the rest of your question I'm not sure what you are looking for.
Since you mentioned Hitler it's important to remember that he,Bin Laden,Charles Mansion as well as many others had one more than one thing in common.
They were only as powerful as thier followers allowed them to be and and were only as evil as what thier followers were willing to do for them.
Blind Faith is one of the most dangerous aspects of human beings.
Again I wonder why?
If the evolution theory is so good, then why does it need protected by law?
Not meaning to shout, but only as special emphasis - WHY IS IT SO SACRED THAT EVEN TEACHING THE FLAWS OR WEAKNESSES OF THE 'THEORY' ARE PROHIBITED?
I only wish I had the faith of so many.
The many that believe order comes from disorder.
If I take a box of paperclips and rattle that box, what is the likely hood that the paperclips coming out of the box will form a nice paperclip chain with each paperclip attached to the next one?
I'm not even factoring in tons of rock needed to get enough ore to make the paper clips, the operators who mine the ore, those who refine the ore, those that manufacture the paperclips, the loggers who cut the trees that are used to make the boxes, the truck drivers who drive logging trucks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Whew!!!! just wanting to see how long it would take to make the paperclip chain - yet the universe (s), and the ecological makeup of our planet are more complex - and to think it JUST HAPPENED OUT OF CHAOS!
Wonder if a tornado hit Detroit, with all the car parts that are around, if it could assemble a car?
Ok I get it. Intelligent design? Sure, ok.
Like many things we can't prove or disprove it however this doesn't mean that anything in the bible or any other known religious doctrine is even remotely accurate.
Still today, people are suffering under the opressive ideas that were written by people whose ignorance of the world around them was staggering by today's standards.
How do you feel about Greek mythology or Scientology for example. Could one of those be the real truth? Nah,I guess not because those stories are just too darned silly, right?
Eastwood: "Again I wonder why? If the evolution theory is so good, then why does it need protected by law?"
You miss the point. It is not the theory of evolution that is being protected by law. It is the authenticity of the education system that is being protected by law from ill founded, unproven, religiously driven conjecture that is nothing more than a non-personal poseur that has no place in academia.
what the f---
If you want to shake the paperclip box and they link up as I describe - then you win, I'm wrong.
Fairy tales such as telling children that life comes from the non-living? I mean really?
I've placed a rock next to a dried out sea shell, lit some candles,played some Johnny Mathis, even poured some wine and nothing happens! I've never seen life spring from non-life.
I realize that i'm ignorant and perhaps somewhere, someone will make the perfect mixture of amino acids and carbon based compounds under the absolute perfect laboratory settings, while inducing the correct stimuli and produce "something" that is unable to sustain it's life without direct scientific involvement.
I'll admit I was wrong - obviously it would of survived in a totally uncontrolled environment with uncontrollable temperature changes,moisture variables, uncontrollable elements and atomic structures to create this abundance of life.
But then to create it in a laboratory would be intelligent design, and to survive all the unpredictable - well that's just shaking a paperclip box, right?
The thought occurs to me that an acorn falling on one's head does not a theory make. Hopefully, the Creationists, unlike Chicken Little, will see the light before they suffer as ignominiously as Little.
What the hell are you talking about?
You said: "Fairy tales such as telling children that life comes from the non-living? I mean really?"
Who said that? I never said that. Actaully the bible makes the claim the we basically appeared out of thin air. Now who's doing a disservice to children?
All I am saying is the we don't know. Modern science doesn't know. They have a pretty good "theory" about how we got to where we are but that's about it. And the really cool thing is that they will admit it.
Would you agree that we live on a singular planet, within a specific solar system, within a galaxy within a universe? This is an actual fact that the people who wrote the bible couldn't even begin to comprehend, yet we are to believe these arcaic, tribal people somehow had an absolute, undeniable explanation for the origin of life on earth? Poof! We just appeared?
Naturally, you are free to belive what ever you choose but how far should religion be able to go in demanding that others believe thier fairy tales as well?
I understand why you may display an attitude, or be somewhat condescending, and at no time have I taken an attitude of cursing,about the subject or in a direction pointed at you. I would appreciate the same consideration.
If you deny Intelligent Design, then basically what way do you suppose that life occurred on earth?
As for the inaccuracies of scientific knowledge that exist in the Bible, would you like to first start with the book of Genesis and proceed in numerical order throughout the chapters of the book?
Again I've never seen life spring from the non-living, what plausible theories do you suggest? or are you still shaking the paperclip box?
OKR - Thank you , You've shed alot of light.
The thought occurs to me that an acorn falling on one's head does not a theory make.
It seems that it worked pretty well for Newton when an apple hit him on the head.
Good line eastwood (Apple/Newton). ROTFLMAO
Apples, oranges, and acorns, we do mix it up on this blog.
Man made creation of life precursor: http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20011029/schultz1.html
We are close, but no cigar yet, at least not one with anything like a big bang when lit. ;)
Eastwood correct me if I am wrong, but from your posts I seem to detect that you appreciate a difference between intelligent design, and creationism. If so, I concur that there is a distinction. http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
Splitting hairs a bit further, I also agree that it has a semblance to the discipline of scientific investigation. I agree that there is a possibility that intelligent design will occur through human effort. It is at that point I get off the band wagon.
To construe from humankind's potential success, that there must be a larger creator, an intelligent designer if you will, would still require a leap of faith. At that point scientific doctrine is discarded, and left in a heap, at the time of the leap. Watcha think?
By the way Eastwood though I enjoyed your Newton/apple bit, I still see the Creationists in the Chicken Little camp, not in that of Isaac Newton. Though all three believed they experienced something phenomenal, only Newton processed it successfully in a noumenonal manner.
eastwood, based on your recent posts, you seem to have some very large misconceptions about both evolution and the relationship between Intelligent design (ID) and Creationism. Also, you bring up the old and debunked arguments that you need to have religion in order to be moral and or ethical. You've covered a lot of ground that each has garnered a lot of discussion in the past. The mixing of the paper clip box is the old ID argument using the complexity of the eye as being too complex to have ever evolved. All those arguments have been totally debunked, but would require you to be open to watching some videos that would very logically explain why all those positions you have expressed are flawed. I detect you have been around some ID people and just like religion, you have accepted their very uneducated stances because you want to believe the bible is true and probably will never accept the facts as layed out by science. If that is not true, I apologize and offer you a chance to prove your openness to truly understanding the differences between ID/Creationism and Evolution by providing you a "You Tube" link that should help you understand. This link is the start (1 of 7) that should provide you many of the answers to the questions you have asked. Please try wathing them with an open mind and let us know any one specific thing you don't understand and perhaps we can discuss.
Yes I said "What the hell are you talking about?" because your arguement made absolutely no sense. The reason I directed the comment at you is because you made the comment. In regards to your offense at my using the word "hell", isn't "Hell" what it's really all about anyway?
I don't have to prove anything because I'm not making any statements of fact that aren't already verifiable. Make your arguement. Convince me why I should lend any creedence whatsoever to the bible's account of the origin of man.
Thank you for the out pouring of comments, it seems sometimes that things are taken way too out of context or as roughly as sand paper.
Isn't it great to have a free exchange of ideas, or view points?
I seem to be the mental midget amongst the academic giants who post.
For every video "for" something there is another "against" it. Views seem to be much like an anus - everyone has one, they stink and there is a crack in it somewhere.
I rely on natural reason: order doesn't come from disorder. Spontaneous generation hasn't been observed, though people have tried to replicate it. The complex structure of DNA, and the millions of acidic combinations needed to replicate it seems highly improbable that it would randomly happen.
I have gotten off the ashpalt and life seems to have taught me that " this experience we call life, is really greater than the total sum of our experiences"
Trust me I feel no persecution, I worship how, when, and where I want and have never had any problems, though I feel in the future they will come under attack.
Does anyone else here find it curious that in the religious blog it seems that when someone displays even a tiny amount of apologetics that they are responded to by 3 or 4, but those who claim "Christianity" retreat into the shadows, like cockroaches?
Perhaps the real "fraility' of Christianity is the weak kneed approach those who proclaim a faith in are so milk toast to offer answers to questions.
I also have to admit, I've never seen the atheist shoot the wounded or leave them when they're hurting - but it seems that so many "Christians" shoot their wounded, or hurting.
It's time that Christians take the "religion" out of it and start having a relationship with their Creator.
To wonder is not a blunder that must leave things asunder. To partake for one's sake can good things make. There may be a break, that can foundations shake, or cause hearts to ache.
Just popped into my head; I don't know what in the hell it means, nor anything else for that matter. Why? Because I am a finite human that honestly can't determine whether there is anything that is not finite. So I reach that point, that moment, when all seems meaningless..until I realize that particular mood is also finite. So what is going on? Me, on the path I guess. ;)
What do YOU make of that?
Nana thank you for your post, your'e dead on, it is a marvel - and to me it is totally mind blowing when I see pictures of things in space.., or think about perhaps what our senses can't detect.
for the others, though............
I hate to be redundant, please forgive the persistance, but..........
It's been explained to me that I'm somewhat ignorant of scientific facts, to which I don't disagree - but can you show me of times when -"out of disorder there is order"? and when "non-living produce living"?
These Questions To Me are extremely important - these are precursors to my thoughts and values on such things as - the value of human life, should all humans be treated equal, why shouldn't I indulge in my baser instincts?
If I am only a biological organism without any calling other than to self, without a purpose for my life, with no eternal life, no fear of punishment for "Sin" - and no GRACE for sins, then why not indulge in those "animal pleasures"?
Ultimately, in the end - isn't our perception of our worth, purpose and direction what shapes us as individuals?
Scuse the buttin in in Eastwood, but, order from disorder? A prairie fire; Native Americans closely tuned to nature, set them to assure renewal of life on the prairies.
An afterthought, seems to me that the closer to nature people are, the more apt they are to see what is essential.
I spent a lot of time alone in the woods when I was a child. It was a more important element of my early education than the class room.
Those are valid questions the we all ask ourselves. For you and a lot of others they turn to and rely on religion. That is fine and even understandable. I've no problem with religion when it can keep to itself without infringing upon the rights of others. I am not an atheist but I am non-religious. I feel am as every bit as moral and empathetic to my fellow man as anyone.
As the Wiccans say: " 'An it harm none, do what thou will."
Wasn' t the fire being set, done with the forethought? embers being put to dry grass - apart of intelligent design of the fire?
It took the brave to start it.
The setting of fire was the order. A matter of forethought.
Aha! Suppose lightning set the fire? ;)
I'm impressed that religion is okay with some "as long as it can keep to itself without infringing upon the rights of others" - especially when in a religious blog.
It seems that a person can be spiritual but not have a belief, and many who argue against beliefs at times quote something spiritual.
There seems to be a void in conviction. For now I will choose to Do unto others as I would have done to myself.
Lightning is the direct result of an unequal balance of electrons to protons thus; resulting in - cloud to cloud lightning, cloud to ground lightning, or ground to cloud lightning.
Natural law - a balancing of electrical charges, orderly not haphazard.
By the way EW, your question was "but can you show me of times when -"out of disorder there is order"? and when "non-living produce living"?"
I answered it. Your response did not refute my answer. The question you asked was not about intelligent design. I hope that my response to your revised question was satisfactory.
Are we to play a game of cat, and mouse?
I suppose that from order (lit fire), came disorder (destruction), came order (new growth). I further suppose that all is a repetitive cycle disorder, order, disorder, order; which is exactly what ND said at the start. Pushing the point a bit further I suppose that the order/disorder cycle could be construed as order of a larger sort, or, said another way, disorder is a part of order. So here we go, "go round and round and round in the circle game", which is beginning to seem vaguely familiar.
Bravo, and (if I may have license), Amen Nana. Also you are far too humble by not mentioning your part in those early conversations. You were always am intrinsic part, and often the leader of conversation. I must confess that one of my greater rewards from this blog, has been the honor of becoming acquainted with you.
EW, be of keen mind for you are conversing with one. Oh...not me LOL, NanaDot.
Dedicated to the new found harmony on this blog, and the hope that it lingers...at least a while.
We can all come to Jesus in our own way,
for to each of us he has things to say.
Whether we think he's God, or a wise one,
his lessons are there when our day is done.
May they ever last for his words ring true,
whether to an Atheist, Christian, or a Jew.
Yes we are different we are more so the same,
don't lay it on Jesus, he don't need the blame.
And don't use Jesus to back your damning threat
cause then it'll be the Devil that'll get you yet.
Humbly understand that you may not be right.
Are you pushing you, not Jesus day and night?
And don't confuse Jesus with the mocking fool,
that twists his message to be his damning tool.
I could not resist adding two closing lines to my harmony poem. ;)
They nailed hin once, the Godly on attack,
and they'll do it again should he come back.
Eastwood: "the value of human life, should all humans be treated equal, why shouldn't I indulge in my baser instincts?"
Are you telling us that if tomorrow you quit believing that Jesus was the savior and that there likely is not supernatural being watching over you, that you might all of a sudden decide to "indulge in my baser instints"? Well, that is quite an insult to yourself as well to those of us who are non-believers if you think about it. What are your "baser instincts"? If it means harming others, raping, stealing, then I don't believe you understand yourself, because I can tell by your posts that you are what I consider a "moral" individual that would not stoop to such actions regardless of your view about the existence of a god. That would mean you are only acting out your morals because of a promise of everlasting life or penalty of an eternal hell. I don't believe that nor do I think you do either?
I didn't pose the question of natives or lightning causing a fire, YOU asked. I gave you an example of natural law.
This universe is one of order or better said perhaps of cause and effect.
As to the 4x4 beating you over the head - I haven't tried to convert, nor have I took the attack to you - but I am impressed that so many feel so threatened by merely a position.
Basically it seems that too many have an opinion, but lack conviction.
The atheist believes that there is no God, no Hell, and really where is the emphasis to be "civilized" on an individual basis?
Crime is on the increase, the threat of human destruction is increasingly present, nearly 53,000,000 children aborted,gov't corruption in the United States at an all time high, what's your first thoughts when your'e walking down the sidewalk/mall and a group of teens are walking in your direction?
What do you think are the results of removing moral absolutes from society?
Perhaps we should reflect on the second law of thermodynamics? Generally stated without getting into too much depth, things go from complexity to less complex in a natural enviornment - not necessarily from order to disorder.
Earlier it seemed the opinion of many of the rock throwers here that early man wouldn't of been so violent - but how do you feel about now?
As to my motivation to do right - well I've adopted a lifestyle that shows that the 10 Commandments are not punitive, but protective. I don't want to be murdered, I don't want to be stolen from, I don't want someone to commit adultry with my wife, I don't want anyone to covert my life/belongings, I do need a day a week to rest, and I do plan on showing thanks to the one I believe has provided myself with the resources/abilities to have what I have.
I've never encountered that the teachings of Jesus have been enslaving,,, very enlightning. It seems the reoccurring theme of many being oppressed by religion - religion maybe- but not by God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
Or is it that so many want to be the final say of right, good and true and can't stand any other authority setting the standards?
Okalahmoma Reader -
From a human perspective why do yo think Jesus was nailed to the cross?
On the Friday they heralded him with palm leaves, why do you think that his "trial" occurred after hours?
Why do you think that the Romans bounced him back and forth between officials?
Your'e right - the "religious" did it.
I think so many people reject a relious viewpoint because of so many "religious people" and then in a supreme act of Bigotry, they lump all of a faith as "religious".
How about trying to develope the relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Take a close look at society/movies/popular opinion. It is wrong to practice racial bigotry/sexual bigotry/socio-economic bigotry,muslim bogotry - but those who follow Jesus are fair game.
Not a victim, it just increases our conviction - as the girl said at Columbine High School - yes I do believe in Jesus and the gun man said " tell him I said hi" - conviction not opinion.
Out of curiousity, does it matter to you what religion a presidential candidate practices?
EW: "From a human perspective why do yo think Jesus was nailed to the cross?"
Taking your question literally it was because that is what they did (by the thousands) in the culture of the time. The uniqueness of Jesus doesn't come from the method of execution.
If he had lived in another time maybe instead of crosses everywhere we would see pretty little hangman's nooses, ornate executioner's axes, or filigreed gold syringes adorning people, and their Christian institutions. ;)
I never asked the method of the execution, in the blog I thought I wrote clearly that the "religious did it"
Isn't it a strange paradox - those who profess a belief in Christianity and life of eternity in Heaven only for the acceptance of the gift of grace - offer comfort,hope,righting of wrongs, reward for a race well run, whereas; the "more enlightened" offer no hope for life eternal, no righting of wrongs, no reward..........really who is more humane?
Where do they find hope, peace, solace? In self? finding peace and solace in the limited when there is so much to be offered by the limitless?
you ask out of curiousity, does it matter to you what religion a presidential candidate practices?
Is a presidential candidate's ability to manage money, serve in the armed forces, and upbringing affect their ability to be president?
If these things form the whole of a person, then would religion come into play with this?
I ask this, can you really find a candidate who has a religious conviction? Instead of lip service they actually put it to practice?
I'm not sure I've heard of one lately..... but religious alignment has been used to hustle a few votes -
Aren't we as Americans getting tired of the elitest few governing the many - anyone getting tired of the controlled media, and the scraps falling from the politicians plates to the lesser?
No what the f--- it isn't insurrection - we are supposed to have a system of checks and balances to correct things - I suggest we look into the candidates carefully to see who will represent the people and not those who wish the people to represent them.
I thake that as a no?
Somehow eastwood you have gone from small, polite, reserved posts to longer subject ramblings and sounding like you and your fellow christians feel persecuted. I guess you have your sea legs now :-) I would recommend an effort to try and answer some specific questions that have been posed to you originating as a result of some of your comments. As I tried to ask in one post earlier, do you believe that if you woke up tomorrow doubting your belief in christianity that you might start robbing, raping, lying and murdering with no remorse?
What the f---,
Might re-read my post.
Rational Thinker - Isee trying to read-into something is a fate of the written word, especially when we can't hear vocal inflections or facial gestures.
If you re-read you may notice that I've specifically mentioned I'm no victim.
I also went to great pains to point that as we see an degeneration of societal norms that this in part may have to do with a lack of convictions, instead we have opinions.
What is your motive for not doing "bad" but then where do we get the definition for "bad" if we don't have a clear understanding of what it is?
Lets's not cow to societal norms, as not all societies have a don't do list - Is good good, and wrong - wrong? Or we to go with situational ethics?
We violate the law if we don't know what it is don't we?
Again I bow to the superior intellect of the group that has control of this blog.
The person that has control of this blog is the Editor Eric. What makes you think anyone who posts here has control? Do you consider anyone with a differing opinion controlling?
Back to the questions. No, it doesn't matter to me in the least what religion a president is.
Unfortunatley, far too many people in this country put far to much emphasis on that particular aspect of the POTUS. Because of this too much religion is injected into our politics.
In my opinion.
As you may know eastwood I believe than when I leave this mortal life excepting tangibles that bear my mark, and memories that folks have of me, that is the end of me. I am seventy one years of age. You can appreciate that each remaining day is precious to me.
Our dialogue began on a high note, but in my opinion it has since deterioated. It is almost like deja vu as we split hairs, and run in circles. Having had these conversations before I just don't want to waste what time I have repeating myself.
If you really want to know what I think regarding your current topics just go back, and read discussions on this blog involving rr3. Reviewing the early archives of 'Speak Out" would further inform you as to my opinions. Meanwhile I am choosing to just keep walking, not look back, enjoy the moment, and what I see immediately ahead on this short road.
Enjoy your trip on the road you choose. Sorry, but it is not a road I am traveling.
Well i'm not rry3vo, but do think he put up excellent answers to some very unpopular questions.
I have not ridiculed those of different faiths, such as Buddists, Hindu, or Muslim. I've only given reasons for why I have a faith, and questioned why some don't.
I've asked only the most basic of questions, can disorder create order and does life come from spontaneous generation?
As to the path you choose, that is your choice, but choosing a life without the Lord and Jesus Christ will give you an eternity without him = hell for eternity. There is only one path to the father and that is through the son.
As to too much religion being injected into politics? well try reading the Declaration of Independence.
This was a nation founded on the Freedom of Religion - not freedom from religion. This comment is for the United States of America - not necessaryily directed at any third world countries.
I need to clarify an answer, as I didn't represent my viewpoints accurately.
I answered the "religious" crucified Jesus, (from a human perspective) from a larger perspective he was nailed to the cross because I put him there.
He was born to be crucified - he paid the debt for my sins.
It was the supreme act of Grace.
Sorry I did respond to this question sooner, but I have been finishing a psych paper.
RT, I was raised by the world's greatest parents. Sorry, but the rest of you will have to settle for having the second best.:) I have the rocking chair my parents purchased to rock each of their 15 children in. I also have dishes that were wedding gifts my parents received. Photos of family members now grace my walls that once graced their's. I care for these items, trying to keep them in mint condition, even to the point of refinishing the rocking chair and having the photos reframed. They are not mine, but belong to people I love and strive to be like. My belief is that this body is simply the earthly dwelling for my soul. When I die, my soul will leave its earthly home to live in heaven. The Bible tells me that this earthly body is also God's temple. So if it's God's, why do I want to take care of it for Him? Because He is someone I love and strive to be like. I want Him to be proud of the way I keep something that belongs to Him. Not because I have to, but because I want to; because of the love I have for Him. Hope this explains my answer better.
NanaDot, If I ever threaten you with hell and damnation, please call me on it. I simply wish to share my belief with others without trying to be judge or jury. Sometimes I'm not good at it. Jesus was the best. He shared, through parables, truths He wanted us to understand without once saying, "I'm sending you all to hell!"
Jim Jones was also a very religous person with complete faith in Jesus. And he had many followers with unconditional faith in him, as a personal communicator with jesus. Is there any part of this irrational behavior that some of you can identify with? It appears to me that several of you are potential candidates to be such followers.
dlkes, thanks for the effort to answer my question. How much of keeping care of your body is your personal desire to be healthy as opposed to only doing it for Him? 50-50?
Nana, when I read your post about eastwood being rr3 I figured you nailed it :-) But, he claims he is not, so I'll take his word for it. I still haven't got a clear answer to my question I've asked twice now, only more vagueness.
It is true that Jim Jones was a "religious person", but you might reseaqrch him a little more about his view of the messiah, and the coming apocolyse.
As to the answering of your question Rational Thinker, I too have asked several questions, and have answered some, might try re-reading it.
I asked the question - where would there be motivation in "doing right"? As to doing wrong - perhaps I would do more wrong - If I wasn't instructed in what was wrong, then how would I know I was doing it? Or that "vengenance is mine saithth the Lord"
societal norms differ with each society - oh wait, I've already mentioned it before, and again and again -
so if we're playing that game then once again I'll ask can order come from chaos? or life spring from the non-living?
somehow I think all will remain silent.
there hasn't been a post that I've read that threatens Hell to anyone, but it is mentioned as a result for those who choose to live life without God / Jesus basically you'll get what you choose.
How's that a threat?
You ask valid questions that we as humans may never be in a postion to answer within the lifetime
However, failing to have answers to those questions at this time in no way gives creedence to any "answers" found in any religious doctrine.
You keep asking "can order come from chaos?"
So I have to ask, did fully realized humans, as in our current physical state, really just appear "poof" out of thin air? Do you really and truly, in the depths of your intellectual capacity believe that?
Dlkes I hope you got an A on your psych test.
No offense to you in your choices regarding religion. You come across as full of joy, respect for all things, all people, and reverence. All those qualities you exhibit do make me think that you might be a positive balanced person, even if you did not have your religion. For instance great parents make great kids.
Please do not take my comment as an attempt to disparage, or diminish your religious relationship. I see nothing wrong with that, it is a part of you. I respect the whole you.
However I also respect the 'whole you' of a lot of folks that do not have God in their lives. There is good, and bad in peoples of every stripe.
Expanding the point I was making to you dlkes, but not addressing you, nor your religious choices I believe the following.
I think that the most important thing that a person may have is to have had a childhood environment wherein familial love was expressed, and felt, developing a sense of security. I believe that special conscienceness is the well spring assuring an easy expansion of the personal "love my family", to "love one another' in a general sense, and then on to "I am my brother's keeper". In other words, the opportunity to learn to love, abetted by an intrinsic desire to love, and be loved, coming together in such fashion creates a whole person.
Few if any have an ideal opportunity at that. Many though get a good helping of it, and life is easier for those of us, even when faced with special adversity. I also think that the people in this category who choose to make religion a part of their lives arrive at religious relationships that emphasize mutual love between deity and person, and de-emphasizes fear, authority, and retribution on the part of the deity.
Another large segment of us receive just enough of that sort of love to thirst for more, perhaps due to inconsistency in exposure, or tepid expression of love within the family unit. Thus, those of us, being ill versed in how to secure it from people, seek it from external sources, That may be an out pouring of love for Jesus, or reverent love for Muhammad, or less fixed on such personifications, instead an amorphous God. The latter perhaps caused by a familial based uneasiness with personage.
I further think that there is a third large segment of folks, the unfortunates, who largely missed out on familial love, and become emotionally isolated, resulting in extreme depression, and, or extreme rage, and an extreme hunger to fill the horrible void. From this group among others come sociopaths, the chronically lethargic, and the violent. Not all in this category end with such misfortune. This is also the group that most benefits from religion, and that may produce zealots, and the saintly, whose every moment, due to personal voids, is consumed by loving their deity, and constant acting in what they understand to be, that deities behalf. Better a zealot than someone who preys on fellow humanity, or who does nothing, and what good person does not respect saints? Even better, religion may simply give these tortured souls peace, and a life closer to those who were not horribly deprived.
Those who were intially deprived to a lesser extent, those people on the border between categories two, and three may be aided by mystical belief in something as unformed, and simple as Karma, and "just a little help from my friends".
Of course this perception of mine leads me to the conclusion that there are good people, and bad people within religious communities, and without religious ties. It follows that I perceive one does not have to choose, nor be chosen by a deity to live as loving, and as moral a life as those that believe they are sanctified.
My essay below did not speak of another group of unfortunates, those that are biologically challenged. Autistics, who can not fully connect to others come to mind, as do others with certain disablities. That is a subject for another day.
Good night all, and may you sleep at peace with your God, yourself, or both, as the case may be.
Eastwood: "I asked the question - where would there be motivation in "doing right"? As to doing wrong - perhaps I would do more wrong - If I wasn't instructed in what was wrong, then how would I know I was doing it?"
Agree, except the instruction source is what is in question. Your "instruction" has come from many sources, and without the bible you would essentially be the same moral person I presume you are today. You might not have as much guilt feeling on some personal indulgences (that you probably participate in anyway), but I'm confident the Golden Rule would still hold you to whatever high moral standards you currently may have.
Eastwood: "societal norms differ with each society - oh wait, I've already mentioned it before, and again and again --"
Yes, I agree with this; you don't have to mention again. Splitting hairs on small variations of societal norms is not at issue. The vast majority of societies do not condone rape or murder, and again, not something you would participate in even if you never heard of the bible.
Eastwood: "so if we're playing that game then once again I'll ask can order come from chaos? or life spring from the non-living?"
These were answered by WTF earlier, but via a question: "did fully realized humans, as in our current physical state, really just appear "poof" out of thin air? Do you really and truly, in the depths of your intellectual capacity believe that?". To simplify, the answer is YES, order did come from chaos. Evolution can explain it. If you believe in some aspects of evolution, especially the basic tenant of "survival of the fittest", then you can understand that order can come from chaos. I assume you believe that man was created by a god sometime in the past in our current form and did not evolve from any lessor form? Even allowing for humans to be the exception, would you agree that the other animals "evolved" over millions of years?
OKR: "Of course this perception of mine leads me to the conclusion that there are good people, and bad people within religious communities, and without religious ties. It follows that I perceive one does not have to choose, nor be chosen by a deity to live as loving, and as moral a life as those that believe they are sanctified."
Just one section of a fantastic post!!!! Well put.
To treat my fellow man and woman with the same respect I expect to be treated (The GR) as well as to possess a love of all animal life and appreciation of the genetic lottery we have all won in order to exist is at the core of my personal beliefs and moral being. And to be able to enjoy as much of life's personal pleasures with no such thing as guilt helps make life so much more satisfying. In that regard, I sincerely pity those who believe a supernatural power is always looking over their shoulder who has the power to send them to a never ending hell or life of bliss (whatever that is supposed to be). What a cruel and unnecessary burden you have placed on such a short and precious life we have been so lucky to have. I would say that "whatever makes you happy" is fine by me, except that I know that actions based out of great fear is not a mentally healthy situation.
As for the questions, did fully human figures just appear out of the air?
why no,,,,,,,,, they were made from the dust of the earth, and Eve from the rib of Adam.
find me a missing link, but.........couldn't what we call early man been fully human - dispite their slight difference in appearance much is accounted for in diet and life sytle.
When next you go to McDonalds, watch the size of the youth who enter - they are getting larger in ht, build, etc. the days of a Scarlet O'hara type lady are vanishing, and as for the 3 anthropological types we see that there are still some that to some may still resemble "early man"
Man is not sent to hell by God, but man chooses hell, YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
My question is what sin do you like to harbor that you can't give up, or refuse to try to give up?
I'm sorry haven't seen any / or read any examples of order coming from disorder or spontaneous generation.
Please refresh my memory.
"I'm sorry haven't seen any / or read any examples of order coming from disorder or spontaneous generation."
Isn't that exacly what the bible says about the origin of man? Poof! Here's Adam. Now we take his rib and "poof" here's Eve?
Sounds like the epitome of spontaneous generation to me. I can't think of a more glaring example.
So I think you have seen /or read examples. Though this may qualify as an example it doesn't mean that it's true,of course.
That dust was organized and crafted by God - the Original Intelligent Designer.
You wanted me to answer the following : My question is what sin do you like to harbor that you can't give up, or refuse to try to give up?
My answer - All, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you can rise above temptations, and avoid sins.
Though my sins are as scarlet, through the power of Jesus I have been washed as white as snow.
Acceptance, Admittance,Repentance, Forgiveness,Fellowship and Grace - it's a wonderful feeling.
Freewill - exercise it wisely, or there could be Hell to pay.
Nana- Perhaps I've gave you the wrong impression or you're overly emotional, but you wrote:
now everybody else is 'choosing Hell' - well - at least we'll be in good company...:-(P
-- Posted by NanaDot on Tue, Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 AM
hell isn't really described as a place where everyone will be standing around enjoying each others compay, either - torment eternal, with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Here are just two of many verses that deal with salvation; and yes we do choose, but we're not doomed unless we choose that path - Salvation is at hand.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do
We don't get salvation by good works, it isn't earned - slavation is a gift, and all that is needed is to merely accept it and the one who provides it.
Thanks RT. I enjoy your posts too.
Nana I will see you in hell, I suppose, unless I change my evil ways. What good company.
To my way of thinking that is much preferred to that place crowded with zealots who did every thing within their power to present, and assure holy didact as especially given to them by the Christian Triune. Tomas Torquemada, and company are not the kind of folks that I wish to spend even a minute with, and the thought of for eternity, well it makes me shudder. To be surrounded by a yammering group of know it alls is not my idea of an ever extended cocktail hour. ;)
Who / what created God.
When we think of space, does it have an end? I mean that if we got into a space ship and went in one direction at the speed of light, we find that we can travel well over 200 years and never get "out of space" In fact with the sun roughly 93,000,000 miles from the earth it only takes the sun roughly 8.5 minutes for it's light to reach earth.
Since God created the universe, and thus the concept of our time, and we measure according to time then lets consider:
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. He has always been, or at least before our finite concept of time.
Perhaps a more scientific way of describing it is Einsteins Theory of Relativity, (with respect to Newtons theory of Mechanics) and we must consider spacetime curvature as described in General Relativity when we consider the multiple dimensions of time.
I'd rather think of it as the first given example as it is more pithy and concise.
I admit I have trouble with the multiple dimensions of time, but there are models that illustrate in two dimension the three dimensional concept which might help in visualizing the concept.
Maybe more like a Star Trek theories of the fabric of time?
"When we think of space, does it have an end?"
I don't know.
"Since God created the universe"
You don't know that.
"God has no need to have been created"
and you definately don't know that.
You are speaking in absolutes in which you can't offer a shred of evidence. If you can believe humans just appeared "poof!" then what makes evolution so hard to swallow?
Sophistry: 1. a subtle , tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. 2. a false argument; sophism. Origin: 1300--50 ...
Example: The average distance from the earth to its moon is 238,857 miles. The moon, beyond any doubt, is made of green cheese.
Maybe some of you can think of other examples. ;)
Eastwood: "My question is what sin do you like to harbor that you can't give up, or refuse to try to give up?"
None, at least by your definition of "sin". My definition of "sin" would be what I consider crimes against humanity or nature, and I don't commit such crimes. Well, on second thought, perhaps I do in the sense that I don't believe we should be executing animals to feed ourselves when other alternatives exist. However, I love the taste of meat and make no effort to refrain from eating meat. In that sense, I guess I am not following what I believe it the right course of action
Eastwood, what specific things does your particular church consider sin that perhaps you occasionally partake in and must occasionally ask forgiveness? As an example, the southern Baptists used to consider playing cards and dancing as a sin. I assume most religions consider masturbation a sin as well. Do you mind sharing specific sins your sect believes can qualify you for hell?
You asked if God had a creator - I gave a brief description of why he wouldn't need one. I see the reason was somewhat complicated for some, so here's a shorter version - as we have a very limited concept of time and the components of it it would be hard to grasp that an entity wouldn't need created.
Instead how about looking into a scientist by the name of Hawking? he published a book in 1966 named The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time.
Hawking wrote: It seems to be a good principle that the prediction of God by a physical theory indicates that the theory has broken down, i.e. it no longer provides a correct description of observations.
It is intersting to note that in a recent book Hawking takes a different approach called the M theory. It is interesting to note that in it's most simplistic form it means that literally the universe was formed from nothing.
Hawking now says in his newer book that the laws of physics guarantee that the universe can be created from nothing.
so WHAT THE F___ when you asked "Who created God?" Maybe the answer to that question-- Is Nothing! After all, Hawking seems to think that nothing is a powerful force for creating things! even universes!
As to whatever you may struggle with, or myself perhaps it's best put this way.
Are we in agreement that violating the 10 Commandments is a sin, and Jesus toughened the requirements when he said that if you even look upon a woman with lust your've committed adultry in your heart.
We also need to realize that just because I don't like it that doesn't make it a sin, I might not like something but that doesn't make it wrong - as well as just because I like something it doesn't make it right.
I don't blindly follow whatever a church says, but I do read and study the Bible, at least to my limited capacity. The Bible is the final authority, not a church. Church is one of the places I go to worship my Lord and Savior, and also be strengthened by fellow believers.
By that logic, people who worship the creator, worship nothing.
OKR - therefore with your logic - the universe doesn't exist. Might want to talk to Hawkin about that.
RT - In addition to what I wrote earlier, The Bible states:
New International Version (©1984)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Oh, well if the New International Version (©1984)
bible says it then................
EW: "OKR - therefore with your logic - the universe doesn't exist. Might want to talk to Hawkin about that."
Another sophistic twist on your part EW.
Neither of us said the universe didn't exist. Your statement was it was created by "Nothing". I noted your cap N indicating your inference. Hence my reply that you worship nothing. That God doesn't exist is arguable, the universe...not so much.
I wish you would quit pulling dead rabbits out of the hat you are talking through. Its a neat trick worn thin. You might get less scorn, and more response. Clever is not a synonym of correct.
EW, do you often feel guilt over your human frailties as described in the bible? When a person does something they know is wrong based on their innermost concept of right and wrong, there is real guilt and I would offer that as legitimate and life changing emotion for the better. However, if a person has been told or interprets certain readings that one's actions is wrong and perhaps warrants eternal damnation, then the psychological effect of such unjustified guilt must be a living hell? These are the kinds of emotions that raise my concerns about the extremely religious. Extremely religious people carry a lot of needless psychological (and unnecessary) baggage.
I often feel that religion could have easily originated by the ruling elite to help keep the working class satisfied with their lot in life, one filled with pain and suffering. The reality is probably the opposite; it is a crutch for those stuck in situations they feel they have no control over. To have that pie in the sky "glazed eye out of this world view" of a creator watching over their every move, yet trying to convince all those around them that their god is all about love is an irrational state of mind that I would not wish on anyone, especially those I love dearly.
I think both sides will enjoy these short excerpts from 30 great writers about God:
it seems that my last posting must of offended someone.
I understand how one can become emotional, or read into a post, if there is anyplace that you can remember that I said or hinted as you stated
" EW if you're such a Bible believer, and are so sure Jesus was 'tough', read the Beatitudes... seems you missed that whole "meek" part..."
Where is it I've said such? I've taken great pains to point out there is forgiveness, infact confession of sin, repentance of sin and that is cast into the sea of forgetfulness. but he will also Judge, and judgement will be just.
Our society forgets that love, patience and being just don't need to exclude each other.
As to the area of sin - simple don't do it.
Confess it, Repent of it, and take steps to avoid it.
If the problem continues then seek help. do understand that the Bible makes it clear that after confession of sin, and repentance - it is forgotten by God, as far as the east is from the West.
If you continue to feel the guilt, then you've placed it on yourself, and haven't believed his word.
Basically its OUR problem because God has put it away.
RT, I have to be honest and say I'm not sure what the percentage would be exactly. I just know I do it for both reasons. I got a little lax for a while, but I'm working my way back to where I was.
Nana, Bless you too!
OKR, My relationship with God is what makes me the person I am. I used to be very obsessive about learning, knowledge, and grades, and not in a good way. When I studied certain things, but found I still had questions, I would become very frustrated and angry. I know I drove other people crazy who couldn't communicate to me what I wanted to know or about things I wanted to discuss. I was told several times that I needed to tone down, and learn to think about others. My parents were both Christians. They shared their faith by example. When I finally learned to turn my life over to Him, I think I became a much more bearable person. I know I think about others more. So I'm not sure I would be the same person without God. I do agree with you about the respect. There are a lot of people I respect and care about who have chosen not to have a relationship with God. And, yes, there are good and bad in all walks of life! That's why I choose not to put my faith in humans.
when did you ever reveal to me you were female?
You mentioned : Gimme a break - using 'emotional' as an epithet to demean or diminish especially a female is chauvinistic at BEST, and imo, laughably hypocritical from someone who preaches from such an 'emotional' point of view...-- Posted by NanaDot on Wed, Jan 25, 2012, at 1:52 PM
Again I ask about the "tough" and where have I shown an emotional outburst?
I will try to be more detached if that helps.
Geez, easy tiger!
nan·a (nn, nän)
1. A grandmother.
2. A nanny
dis·sem·ble [ di sémb'l ] 1.put on false appearance: to put on a false appearance in order to conceal facts, feelings, or intentions
2.give appearance of something: to put on the appearance of something not actually felt or true
3.hide something by pretense: to hide real beliefs, feelings, or intentions through misleading speech or behavior
My bad, I was thinking nanodot instead of Grandma Dot
1.a microscopic cluster of several hundred nickel atoms that can be used to store extremely large amounts of data in a computer chip
OKR you may like this - You without sin cast the first stone.
Meanwhile I am choosing to just keep walking, not look back, enjoy the moment, and what I see immediately ahead on this short road.
Enjoy your trip on the road you choose. Sorry, but it is not a road I am traveling.
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jan 22, 2012, at 11:53 PM
I'm glad your'e feeling convicted, again! There are anwers to what you seek, and eternity doesn't have to mean death.
death in this sense means spiritual death - hell.
Can someone explain to me the difference between God,Heaven,Angels etc, and Santa, the North Pole and elves? Is the only difference the age group they were created for?
You mentioned before you go to church, right? don't they cover those topics?
No, I don't go to church. I stay as far away as possible. What do they say about God vs. Santa?
By the way eastwood from my comments it should be obvious that I continue to not travel the road you travel.
Just theoretical questions, generally addressed, not to anyone in particular: What if a person commits the same "sin" over, and over, then privately confesses the "sin" to Jesus over, and over, the pattern never ending. At some point does Jesus become his co-dependent? Does not Jesus' forgiveness at some point become enabling instead of healing?
If they continue to commit the same sin over and over, is there true repentance? You see repentance is a change of mind, not a get of jail/hell free card. When you go to Jesus, you need to be aware of the sins you have committed, be truly sorry for them, and make the committment to not do them again. OK sometimes you might slip and have to ask again, but if your mindset has changed that's not going to happen over and over. I personally would question someone who came back time and time again saying, "Oh and by the way, I did the same thing I did yesterday, so I need to be forgiven again." But judgment is God's area of expertise and He can see the heart. I believe He knows whether a person is displaying true remorse.
Sorry I can't remember calling my grandma, nana, -infact haven't had a grandma for quite some time.
sometimes we all have brainfarts,,,,, like acorns and apples?
But I haven't questioned your integrity.
eastwood if you believe you have reason to question my integrity, by all means proceed to do so. If I agree that such observation has merit I will ponder it, and likely grow from it. If not I will dismiss it, and go on.
I know few folk whose integrity has not been questioned from time to time. In a forthright search for the truth, such observation is at times necessary.
It is especially true when one conducts rigorous self examination. I believe that I have questioned my own integrity more often than, as far as I know, all others.
This forum is not a tea party where we must politely consume crumpets, and cakes, pronouncing them all good, regardless the flavor, freshness, or palpability.
But I like tea parties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
Thanks for replying dlkes.
What are your thoughts as to what is the reward from the Lord, when those poor folks consumed by an addiction, or mental illness back slide their entire lives, again asking forgiveness on their death bed. I am not just referring to drug addicts, nor kleptomania, nor pathological liars for instance.
When they are cognizant of whatever their condition, know that it's wrong, but just can't stop, what then. How can they be certain that Jesus will forgive them, despite Christian folk saying "come to Jesus, he will forgive"? How can they know when they have tried enough to gain forgiveness?
At some point does it not become a gamble, despite the assurances of certainty by the Christian community? The unfortunate may believe that Christ forgives, but could be nagged by doubt as to whether or not he is deserving of forgiveness. He knows that is Jesus' choice, but he can't know if he has done enough to deserve forgiveness.
Me too dlkes, and I like your sense of humor. :)
OKR, dlkes nor eastwood, nor rr3 can answer your questions concerning what reward the lord/jesus/god will give anybody. They don't know; they can't know. That is the hubris of all religious people. They "think" they see the light, but they cannot see what is not there. And to profess that they really know the answer is without a doubt irrational behavior, bordering on fraud. But, of course, I know you know this. We cannot win an argument with irrational people, at least in terms of them coming to some rational understanding. The only thing we can do is confront them on their ignorance of the laws of nature with scientific facts, and even though they play their games and refuse to accept what is truth to all rational people, we can hope that others who might not be 100 percent brainwashed can see the complete lack of understanding. Other religious people who read this blog that may have real doubts (because they should) might very well be swayed toward being more rational when they have the opportunity to see they are not alone in doubting the supernatural. They will not be alone when they finally realize it is time to jump off the irrational bus. A debate with the super religious only has merit for the listeners.
In essence I agree with what you said RT. However, I can't help thinking that fallible me has made a leap of faith here, and there in my life, even though it hasn't involved Christianity since my position on religion came to fruition many years ago. I continue to ask questions because I can not be certain beyond the shadow of a doubt that at some point some magical answer may come my way that makes more sense to me than I have heard thus far.
Secondly, we all are products of our environments, and I do not want to be a part of ripping the carefully woven comforter from good people who have spent their lives weaving their unique blanket that protects them from a sometimes cold world. To lift it from them for a moment occasionally is another thing. It doesn't hurt to know that one can survive with out a blanket. ;)
A question was asked answer concerning what reward the lord/jesus/god will give anybody.
They don't know; they can't know.) I've been here a little over a week, and have read this "blog" on and off for longer, I haven't seen it posted before, or have I missed it?
Rewards? that's what your'e so worried about?
We don't earn "bonus Points for going to church" it is a time to tell the ceator "Thank you" and to worship, a time to acknowlege a greater than self.
I realize you are an intelligent person, but as you probably know first - following God's laws has rewards here on this earth i.e.- don't fornicate = no STD's, don't steal = world without thieves, don't lie = honesty increases, that's on the short term.
Though that my not be enough motivation for some -then there will be the new earth, a paradise found that once was lost. Some will have that, joy and a new body without pain, or imperfection -others will also get what they strived for - an eternity without God.
I feel it basically comes down to types of people - I would question a faith where someone follows God/Jesus just for a reward - that tells you where the heart is.
To follow God/Jesus is a relationship - one that is pure, though we are the inferior in this realitonship God/Jesus has provided a means of were we can be more, to be free on limitiations of our bodies/desires etc. It is a realtionship that while for the moment we are here on earth, later it will be in continual union with one who's wonders will enver cease.
Then you have others who think they are merely the center of all being, and that existence is to satisify their wants and maybe they can leave the world a little better, but in so doing believe that trying to tear ones faith down with sarcastic comments, ennuendos that they don't substantiate, or accusations to the absurd is just intellectual banter.
Remember back months, and months ago when you mentioned that you go to church? what gives, did you give up going?
-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Jan 26, 2012, at 11:15 AM
As I said I believe God sees and knows the heart. That is why judgment is left to Him, because I know that I, as well as other humans, would mess it up. We can't see the heart. When I talked about people who come back again and again and ask forgiveness for a sin, I was speaking of those who intentionally do the sin because their thought process is that they can just ask for forgiveness again and again. To me that is intentional sin and they have not really repented. Then you have those who have trouble giving complete control over to God so they stumble back into their old ways. I believe they are truly repentant, but until they are willing to give complete control to God, they will never be totally successful in their walk with God, and will need to keep coming back. Then you have those who are not accountable. I'm talking about those with mental challenges who do not understand the salvation process, and cannot be held accountable. There are those with mental challenges who do. These are my personal thoughts and observations. I repeat that God does the judging, not me and not anyone else.
Those who are nagged by doubt many times are victims of Satan's lies, telling them that they are not worthy or they haven't done enough. You see that's the hardest part for many people to understand. We, in ourselves, were not worthy of heaven. But Jesus changed all that when He chose to come to Earth as a baby, live among men, teaching Biblical truths, taking our sin to the cross where He died in our place, and then rising from the dead. It was His gift to us. He was our Ultimate Sacrifice. Because of Him we do not have to live with sin in our lives. It is the sin that keeps us from God. And we don't have to work for it. All we have to do is accept the gift that Christ gives to us free of charge. When those doubts appear, just remind Satan if he has any doubts about their salvation, he can speak with Christ who saved him.
My reward is getting to go to heaven, to spend eternity with God; someone who loved me enough, before I was ever born, to create a perfect place for mankind to dwell, and who made a way of salvation when man messed it up, as we are so good at doing. I don't see a light. I have a relationship with a living God. You call me irrational because I refuse to accept what you tell me as truth when I've done my own research and made my own decision. If I was a name caller, I could say the same about you, but I'm not. Because I respect you as a person, I understand and appreciate the research you have done and the conclusions you have come to. Because I care about you, I still share my beliefs with you, and I pray for you, but I still respect you. By the way, people who have doubts could just as easily be swayed to God's side because they see our faith and firm stand in the face of opposition.
nana, easy tiger,,,
Fourth -in case you missed it, news goes to church too...Posted by NanaDot on Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 8:53 AM
Posted by What the f.....on Thu, Jan 26, 2012, at 11:15 AM
Third, if you choose to be in an 'inferior relationship' with your deity, fine - by all means, feel as inferior as you choose... please don't mind if the rest of the world doesn't follow along... Posted by NanaDot on Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 8:53 AM
Choice isn't it, the realization that I can't create a universe, I didn't live a blameless life, and I won't be judging the world in the end. That's the realization -choosing not to worship ,,, well that's your decision.....
Nana, I mis wrote when I said there were two types, if you were to read the post you'd see that a third was included:
Then you have others who think they are merely the center of all being, and that existence is to satisify their wants and maybe they can leave the world a little better, but in so doing believe that trying to tear ones faith down with sarcastic comments, ennuendos that they don't substantiate, or accusations to the absurd is just intellectual banter. Posted by eastwood on Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 7:07 AM
And yes unfortunately, those who make a conscience choice not to enter into the presence of God through Jesus, will meet with an unfortunate eternity.
I'm not sure I ever said that I go to church although I may have said that I've been to church.
Oh well, getting back to the original question.
Can you explain the difference between God and Heaven vs. Santa and the North Pole? Also, could you throw in a little rational as to why I should believe in either? Thanks.
what the f,,,
I get ther feeling you could split frog hair.
God and heaven are real like the North Pole. Haven't seen or been there but I believe they are real. Santa not so much!
How is that splitting hairs? I think that is a very valid question.
Is there a difference between God and Heaven vs. Santa and the North Pole?
This is considered splitting hairs? How is that.
Dlkes you said "I repeat that God does the judging, not me and not anyone else."
That is the sort of Christian that I have no problem with. Good for you.
I scoff at the ones that spend most of their time inferring non-Christians are hell bound, or outright condemn non-Christians to hell. Those angry cock sure folk IMO exhibit an unparalleled vanity. In one breath they say that only God has the answers, and in the next assure us that they have all the answers. Though they deny it they are so caught up in the sturm und drang of the Old Testament that they loose sight of the wonderful life lessons of Jesus.
Further, I see the same tendency in some of the non-religious, and of some who espouse other religions. There are all sorts of personality types, whether religious, or non-religious. How they interact with other people, how they present their beliefs, I think are tied to core personality more so than their theological believes. Abrasiveness and other undesireable traits precede, and usually are not affected by a personal belief system.
What the f,,,
Order from disorder, spontaneous generation, prophesy fulfilled within the Bible, but none of that really matters because .....
when a topic is brought up, lets change it, not offwer any real solutions or reasoning, find a demeaning video clip, defer only to "experts" or shoot off a simple retort, but an exchange of ideas?
Well now that could be a real miracle!
Just a short summary of "Christian verses" that state salvation through Jesus. People may have problems with it, but isn't the Bible what Christians go by?
Acts 4:12 None other name...whereby we must be saved
1Tim.2:5 One mediator between God and men...Christ Jesus
Jn.3:16 God...gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should...have everlasting life
Jn.3:36b He that believeth not the Son shall not see life
Jn.8:24 If ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins
Jn.10:1 He that entereth not by the door...but climbeth up some other way...is a thief and a robber
Jn.10:9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter in...be saved
Jn.14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me
1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than... Jesus Christ
1Jn.5:12 He that hath not the Son of God hath not life
I'm not judging, but if a person is called by Christian, then they claim the Christ.
Salvation and Grace wasn't free, that bill was paid at the cross.
Actually it would be a miracle if you answered the question so I'll as it for the 3rd time.
What is the difference between God and Heaven vs. Santa and the North Pole.
Now, let's exchange ideas.
I have never had the need to enter any of those "Christian" book stores that cater to the needs of fundementalist Christians, the short lifers, the earth maybe isn't flat, but how could it go flat in only six thousand years crowd.
However I do have some, albeit slight, curiosity as to their inventory.
Do they note on the covers of their Bibles that they are X rated, or do they just sell an expurgated version for kids? Do they have stacks, and stacks of Sarah Palin books that have out lived her day in the sun? Do they have a little adults only back room that folks can slip in to read biographies of Ted Haggard, Jim and Tammy Fay Baker, or Billy James Hargis? Do they have porn videos in that room of "David and Bathsheba", or "Salome As You Have Never Seen Her"? How about snuff videos like Cain and Abel, and that guy who killed his kid? I have heard that they carry lots of stuff, not only books, just like Barnes & Noble. Most of all I want to know, do they sell plastic dinosaur bridles for kids to play old timey?
WTF, Not to answer a question with a question, but just wondered....Have you ever been to the North Pole? If so, did you find Santa? the real Santa, not a want to be. Have you ever been to heaven? Personally, I have never been to either place, but I believe they both exist. When I was younger I tried to speak with the real Santa, even wrote him letters. But he never responded to me. I talk to God on a daily basis, and He responds. Respectfully
OKR, Your questions concerning Christian bookstores reminds me why I keep my eyes on a living God and not on human beings. Oh, and just for the record, I have never been a Sarah Palin fan. Just sayin'.
Well said dlkes. By the way I could (and may) do a satire on Barnes & Noble that would be just as ridiculous.
Eastwood, The Bible is what this Christian goes by. And I believe the verses on Salvation; share them on regular basis. However, Matthew chapter 7 says "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Our pastor invites sinners to come to the altar every Sunday. I have never once seen him go to an individual and say to them, "You are a sinner and you're going to hell." He presents the Salvation message and allows each to decide for themselves. So while I share the plan of salvation and will continue to share the plan of salvation, I refuse to judge anyone because I can't see human hearts the way God can. I also refuse to beat a dead horse. If I share the plan of salvation with someone, and they make their decision public knowledge, its their decision. I answer questions when asked, and I pray like a madman for something to happen or someone to come along that will change their mind before its too late, but I have never found attacking anyone works. This is not a rebuff to you, simply my personal observations. Respectfully,
OKR, I have a feeling that you and I have the same warped sense of humor.
Basically God created you and is heaven, and I hope for Santa to take you to the North Pole?
The question is what's the difference between God and Santa and why is one considered fiction and not the other?
Some would call it sick. ;)
I talk to God and he responds, he said he made heaven for us and even describes what it will be like, I could travel to where they say the North Pole is and probably find it. As for Santa there was one that lived in Marshall years ago but he resides in Blue Lick cemetary. So I guess you could say that Mr. Claus was real couldn't ya?!!!
The scriptures speak for themselves.
There is Heaven to grasp, and Hell to shun.
There is no other way to God except through his son, Jesus. I haven't judged, God will do that, but to water down the truth is cruel. If your'e a Christian then there is only one road to Heaven, not many. Broad is the path, and narrow is the gate.
I wish all could enter, this is where prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to intervenue figures in. To be a Christian and say any other way to God except through Jesus would be misleading, and the
comment was origianlly made in regards to :
Dlkes you said "I repeat that God does the judging, not me and not anyone else." That is the sort of Christian that I have no problem with. Good for you. I scoff at the ones that spend most of their time inferring non-Christians are hell bound, or outright condemn non-Christians to hell.Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jan 27, 2012, at 12:11 PM
Perhaps there will be some that "have a problem with us" but to be a Christian means to have accepted the Christ - doesn't it? no judgement here - but woe when sentencing takes place.
What the f,,,
You've gotten a multitude of answers, from various people, now that YOUR demands have been met, your question answered, the question that came before yours was -
Can order come from chaos?
Does life spring from the non-living?
We wait in giddy anticipation!
First of all no one has answered my question.
But I'll answer yours as I have before.
Ready? The answer is I don't know. I am absolutely fine with that and more than willing to admit it.
The thing is, even though you will never admit it is that you don't know either. You may sincerely think you know, but the fact is you don't. Nobody does.
It doesn't matter what you say or what scriptures you spout because it proves nothing. Zilch, zero, the big goose egg.
So again I'll ask. Why should I believe in God and not Santa? Scripture doesn't count because like the story of Santa they are but words on a page.
Let me say this again, scripture proves nothing.
Santa and God have a lot in common such as keeping track of behavior, always watching you and a behavior based reward and punishment systems firmly in place.
In fact they are almost interchangeable. So, as a full grown adult if were to tell you that I believe in Santa Clause, what would you think?
I apologize. I thought I had answered your question. But I guess I only touched on the difference. Now to address the other part, "why is one considered fiction and not the other?" I need to correct you because I believe they are both real. Santa Clause's name may have been changed many times throughout the centuries, but he was a man who lived in the 3rd Century and his name was Nicholas, you may know him by St. Nicholas. Unfortunately, he died which is why he cannot answer me when I speak to him. God is God, a living being. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I am able to speak with Him daily. Santa Clause or St. Nicholas or whatever name you know him by has had many interesting tales told about him through the ages, and his reason for being has changed, become more commercialized. The same can be said about God. He's had a lot of stories spun about Him and been blamed for a lot of things we humans have brought on ourselves. Unless I read it in the Bible I know these are false. So, if you told me you believed in Santa Clause, which I belive I stated I did in December, I would say good for you, and hope you believed in the one who chose to sell everything he owned to share with the poor, who gave money, food, and fuel to those in need without taking their dignity, and not the one who supposedly watches to see if you've been good or bad just to bring you toys or gets you to drive your parents crazy asking for the most high priced item on the store shelves so someone else can take hard earned cash from your parents. Because that's the one who really existed.
OKR, I had someone just this morning tell me I was a sick individual, and I'm not sure it was a compliment!;)
What the f,,,,
Maybe you should try re-reading the blogs, there have been several people answer, perhaps it is better stated that you didn't like the answers?
Santa and the North pole, did exist, but not as you would like them to.
As to the Bible, historicity speaks for itself, phrophesy speaks for itself,a collection of books spanning over 1500 years brought together into an encyclopedia called the Bible with the same central theme, etc......
I bet the problem with many is unblief in what they don't want to hear, instead of putting aside their want and looking objectively.
I for the longest time didn't want to see, I thought what a relief, to die and all end,no reward no punishment. I was totally in charge of my destiny and I was my own keeper.
But now I understand, and where once I was blind, but now I see, and the view is awesome!
Was Santa magic?
Perhaps you would like to re-educate me as to these "answers" because I sure haven't seen them.
Your right, I'm not Newsacross. The way folks can tell the difference is that I'm not a American living in Australia who uses the term "mate" ad nauseum in printed form.
I appreciate the clarification.
The Power of Atheism to Change Lives
"The very reason why atheists attack Christianity above all other religions is because Christianity directly challenges the atheist's assertion that belief in God is irrational."
Take it as a compliment dlkes, the power of positive thinking will help to avoid erosion of your sense of humor. :)
rr3: "As for Santa there was one that lived in Marshall years ago but he resides in Blue Lick cemetary. So I guess you could say that Mr. Claus was real couldn't ya?!!!"
I knew that there is a difference between you, and eastwood, but I couldn't put my finger on what it is. You have a funny sense of humor that pops up from time to time.
By the way rr3 the guy pushing up daisies at Blue Lick spelled his name differently. He wasn't the whole story, just a Clause.
rr3 you quoted an article "The very reason why atheists attack Christianity above all other religions is because Christianity directly challenges the atheist's assertion that belief in God is irrational."
I say bunkum to that.
The real reason is that they are the two largest groups in the United States (England too). Who else is there to argue with? Seventy six per cent of Americans identify as Christians, fifteen percent identify with no religion, One and one fifth percent Jewish, and six tenths of one percent Muslim. The rest are smaller percentages.
Where would either Christians, or Atheists find any one else to argue with than each other? LOL Propinquity is the real reason.
I got the stats I used from a very conservative source because I thought it would have more credibility with you. http://bobmccarty.com/2009/03/09/survey-fewer-christians-more-muslims-in-usa/
Very few Nana. It is monkey see, monkey do, where ever we are on the evolutionary chain.
You know rr3, on second thought, I am not sure that the Santa Clause at Blue Lick, who was related to the many Clauses in Marshall didn't at some point, long years ago, have his name changed to Claus, because he got so many letters every year, yadda, yadda. Maybe someone can clarify that. I don't care enough myself to go all the way through the Blue Lick Cemetery register to determine it. Might check quickly to see if I can find an alphabetized registry though.
Nana, Thanks for the comment on the pun.:)
Nope, the cemetery registry has him as Santa Clause. Whew, glad I straightened that out. ;)
I am glad you did too okr. Now wtf can know that Santa Claus was real. He will be disappointed that he didn't live at the North Pole though.
Dlkes: "I talk to God on a daily basis, and He responds. Respectfully"
In your mind you believe he responds, but you have no more proof than someone who claims to have communicated with Elvis. Mass delusion does not make reality, and can be very destructive for a select few. Once the truly sane people accept that these "feelings" are only just that, and that perhaps they are possibly no more true than dreams, the world will be a better place. You have every right to "feel" whatever you choose, but you must accept that espousing such delusion should elicit skepticism.
EW: "And yes unfortunately, those who make a conscience choice not to enter into the presence of God through Jesus, will meet with an unfortunate eternity."
Threats again. If you don't do what my book says to do, you will be soooo sorry, but if you do, you will be sooooooo happy. A result of a lifetime of classic brainwashing.
Dlkes: "I am able to speak with Him daily"
You too? Perhaps you mean you are able to speak AT him. I assume no specific words come back, only some warm feeling?
Rr3: "I talk to God and he responds, he said he made heaven for us.."
Did he respond generally, or specifically to you during your talk. Did he really tell you in words or perhaps gave you a very specific thought (not a generality) that he made heaven for us?
Eastwood: "...no judgement here - but woe when sentencing takes place"
There you go again, trying to scare us into your way or the highway. Don't work. I'm not scared at all.
EW: "Can order come from chaos?"
Yes, some order, maybe not enough, but that also adds to the excitement of living.
EW: "Does life spring from the non-living?"
Yes, it had to. Even if your bogus theory of a god magically creating life was true, then he made life from the non living, or perhaps he just mixed up all kinds of atoms and star dust to create the first life forms -- oh that would be evolution. Maybe Evolution is one and the same as god, and xtians just have a big struggle with the amount of time involved for evolution versus "poof" theory :-)
RR3: ""The very reason why atheists attack Christianity above all other religions is because Christianity directly challenges the atheist's assertion that belief in God is irrational."
What r u smok'n. All religions espouse non-existent supernatural peeping toms that atheists hold equally in disbelief.
SANTA vs GOD/JESUS/HOLYGHOST
Yes, both santa and jesus have their exaggerated stories (quite the understatement) based on non-fictional people. At least, santa does.
Favorite quote I heard today:
"Aside from the occasional shouts of "Oh, God" there is no religion in sex."
Let's try this one more time. I'll try to remove all of the techincalities.
Can anyone tell me the difference between God, Heaven and Angels vs. a Magical, Jolly Old Elf with his toy making elves, magic reindeer, flying sled and the abilty to visit every child on the planet....in one night?
Why am I commanded to believe one and not the other?
Thanks again for the non-emotional responses - bahahahahaha
To tella woe to those who don't come to faith in God through Jesus isn't passing a judgement, I merely told what is written in the Bible, the source of Christian reference. The judgement has been made, I'm only relaying the message.
As for the "exaggerated accounts" might want to look past the funny papers, or "family guy" check out other historical sources, secular sources give accounts of early believers.
Again what about the area of phophesy fulfilled?
Check the bible RT. Oh I know you don't believe that.
What does the religion of atheism believe in? I trust your actions are based on what you believe not on what you don't believe.
Eastwood when dealing with the carnal man there are just some things you can't fix only God can. lol
Nobody is commanding you wtf are they? If so maybe God is speaking to your heart.
Rr3: "What does the religion of atheism believe in?"
The religion of atheism is rational thinking, based on science. All else is conjecture.
I believe there have been many religious individuals in the recent past that would have been considered prophets as strongly believed as jesus was believed 2000 years ago. However, due to our knowledge of the universe and laws of science, a "jesus" would only garner a small following today, similar to Jim Jones, Hari Krishna, Aum Shinrikyo, Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, to name a few. Today there would be nothing believable about them and performed miracles would have easily been debunked. In short, such a cult as christianity would have never gained such a large following had not the myth started when tsunami's and earthquakes were not explainable.
Just as I suspected. Ask a direct question get an indirect answer, that is, if you get any answer at all.
So now you are saying we are not commanded to believe in god? How does that work?
Either you believe this or you go to hell" Sounds like a command to me. How is it you see that differently? What do you define as a command?
It's undertandable, of course, why direct answers cannot be given because there are none.
In religion everything is based on superstitions,speculation, faith and mostly wishful thinking. Referring to the bible or that it's "God's will" is a cop out of epic proportion as well as standard operating procedure.
These ingredients do not lend themselves to straight answers or actual factual statements because if you were to do that your entire house of cards would come crumbling down around you.
Santa or God? Why one and not the other? Why not both or perhaps neither? Also I'm curious, if all Christians believe the same thing and everything in the bible is true then why is there 19 different categories of "Christian" churches in the Marshall yellow pages?
Why is that? Why is there not one huge church in town? There are dozens and dozens.I mean aren't you all on the same page of the bible?
Why is that? How am I supposed to believe your schtick when even you guys can't seem to come to a general consensus about it?
rr3yv0 - thank you well siad, I'll heed the advice.
That the f---, to not believe in God is your choice, but lets also take some time to split those frog hairs shall we?
You mention that not believing in God/Jesus will send yo to Hell, I won't argue that, but instead we might better expand our understanding.
The Devil and his Demons believed n God/Jesus, infact they recognized their superiority. Satan and his demons simply didn't accept the sovernignity of God.
They were in rebellion, Hell is made for them, and those who choose not to accept Gods/Jesus sovernigity - choosing not to believe in God - well it comes down to not accpeting what is around all of us, the historicity of the Biblical accounts, eyewitness testomony,the resurrection, inshort to quote a knowledgebable person "Eastwood when dealing with the carnal man there are just some things you can't fix only God can. by rr3yv0
Nana - as to the nature of phrophesy yours is a week argument, and riddled with circular reason.
A phrophesy, or foretelling of a future event before the event happens by supernatural means is contained within the Bible. The are numerous phrophecises concerning the Birth, Life, and Death of Jesus.
To argue that the Book of Daniel, or other Old Testament books were written after the fact would be innaccurate - even many modern day athiests have abandoned that argument, perhaps in part, but not entirely due to the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.
The fortelling of the life of Jesus was written in the Old Testament and it is proven that more than 400 years of silence elapsed between the Old and New Testament.
Again, let's look at things in a rational manner and put self aside.
Take real time to read the book, check itself for the accuracy/inaccuracies and give a true unbiased reasoned study of it, and I feel you'll come to the conclusions I came to: The Bible is without fault, it is accurate, it was inspired by a supernatural Creator, Natural Law is provided with a list of do and dont's and the end of our time is coming - each day is a day closer.
The only thing seperating us from eternity is one heartbeat - come join us on a journey that will never be regretted!
Again,Your comments prove nothing. Why don't you answer the questions I put forth?
Rational Thinker -
I believe there have been many religious individuals in the recent past that would have been considered prophets as strongly believed as jesus was believed 2000 years ago.
This statement sheds light on some of your thoughts - chiefly you take pains to leave the proper noun Jesus without capitalization, but go forth and capitalize the names of Jim Jones, Hari Krishna, Aum Shinrikyo, Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, does this already signify basic contempt for Jesus and those called by his name?
Jesus was foretold hundreds of years earlier, eyewitness accounts by people who specifically new the dead/diseased, and Jesus didn't ask for money, and those he touched fell forward - a position of worship (face down)
T.V. evangelists hit the forehead of those so they fall backward, noone is there to verify the healing, money and extravagent living is a primary focus, etc.....
Also as to what:
Jim Jones, Hari Krishna, Aum Shinrikyo, Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, preach or claim is not with the pale of orthodoxy. They deny the finished work of Jesus, the Grace God gives, etc........so they are not Christian - by the fruit ye shall know them - they haven't even announced how they would die, or the circumstances of their death hasn't be prohesized / yet alone fulfilled.
Re: order out of chaos. I'm not even close to an expert on this, but I remember reading a book about chaos a number of years ago. One thing that stuck with me about it was the claim that scientists studying complexity had discovered that there almost always order in chaos. That is, whether some situation or thing appears random or shows patterns depends on perspective. It's all a matter of scale. So basically the world is so complex and because we have limited ability to shift perspectives, we perceive lots of chaos. And it's only really there because we can't see the order inherent in the system.
How do you know rational thinking is actually rational? What do you compare it to? What was discovered first rationality or irrationality? That is the question.
Sadly wtf all the 'Christian' churches are not on the same page of the bible. A lot of different churches were started because of disagreements. It might have been somebody didn't like the color of the carpet, or they didn't like the pastor and there are a ton of others. Good churches with good pastors teach the bible and if they teach something contradictory to that you better stay away. There are even 'Christians' in good 'Christian' churches that aren't Christian. We don't always know who they are but God does. No you are not commanded to believe in God or go to hell, you can choose hell all by yourself.
Nice post taxedpayer, do come again. :)
Here are a few phrophecies that concern Jesus, it would interesting if the academia would estimate the odds of one person fulfilling all the phrophecies written hundreds of years before the events!
BE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE
Isaiah 9:6-7 ... 700 B.C.
BORN OF A VIRGIN
Isaiah 7:14 .. 700 B.C.
FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH
Isaiah 37:31 ... 700 B.C.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE
Isaiah 11:10 ... 700 B.C.
Isaiah 11:1-5 ... 700 B.C.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID
Isaiah 16:5 ... 700 B.C.
BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH
Micah 5:2 ... 700 B.C.
BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE
Isaiah 9:1-2 ... 700 B.C.
HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS
Jeremiah 31:15 ... 625 B.C.
COME OUT OF EGYPT
Hosea 11:1 ... 725 B.C.
MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES
Isaiah 49:6 ...700 B.C.
Isaiah 42:1-4, ...700 B.C.
MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS
Isaiah 29:18 ... 700 B.C.
Isaiah 35:5-6a ... 700 B.C.
MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES
Isaiah 61:1-2 ...700 B.C.
DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN
Isaiah 53:3 ... 700 B.C.
HATED WITHOUT CAUSE
Psalm 69:4 ... 1000 B.C.
Isaiah 49:7 ... 700 B.C.
REJECTED BY RULERS
Psalm 118:22 ...400 B.C.
REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS
Psalms 69:8 ...1000 B.C.
BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER
Zechariah 11:12 ... 500 B.C.
SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD
Zechariah 11:12-13 ...500 B.C.
DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER
Zechariah 13:7 ...500 B.C.
Nana - here's a news flash, the jews rejected Jesus, so why would they try to meet all the criteria of family relations? predict the slaughter (before Roman domination) of the male infant children and talk Herod into doing this? then talk the Romans into crucifiying Jesus how it was described hundreds of years before? come on - time to rethink it some, isn't it?
I really like the answer about order exists in chaos, we jsut don't see it. Geez I know, to find oneself you must loose oneself, to loose allis to be really rich, falling down is the first step in getting up, yada,yada,yada..... thanks I needed a good laugh on a Saturday.
You can cling to an answer from a book that can't be remembered, by an author that cn't be recalled? Bahahahahahaha good one.
Nana would you like the prophecies concerning the death of Jesus?
Perhaps we can uncover a conspiracy made hundreds of years before the Roman Empire had started the practice of crucifying people?
What a good sport Jesus must of been to die a horrible death just so some Jews could pull the mastermind of the century!
Come on something isn't kosher here!
I truly enjoy this blog, and the thoughtful comments that appear here. There are a couple of people who post that mostly exasperate me. I am doing my best to just view those comments as punctuation, a pause if you will, to skip over, catch my breath, and then on to the next interesting comment.
The 'prophecies' of whomever they wanted to fill in the blank with were just that - they could have created ANY one with those credentials... because they read them first, and managed the PR later...by NanaDot on Sat, Jan 28, 2012, at 8:28 PM
Gee, seems time has been set by that "Whomevers" birth. Infact 2012 years after!
yeah, really manufactured them later - The jeuws were looking for a revolutionist to over throw the Romans, but Jesus has a different way to set mankind free,,,,,,,,,it is liberating, stop being chained to self and set your mind free.
The shackles of self and the world do nothing but make a person down trodded and sarcastic - I've read alot of fluff, smoke and general belittling comments, and several have posted good answers to some tough questions.........so is your emotion really stronger than reason?
Prophesy should be enough to verify the supernatural authorship of the Bible Again what are the mathmatical odds of one person fulfilling the prophesies of 100's of years earlier?
Isn't it really worth considering? even circumstantially it should make one scratch their head and give it a good think!
Oh, and nana might check up a little on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Totally tongue in cheek - long pause - was that the best you got, not to question the historicity of the prophesies?
About the only scripture, or antecedents of scripture, that I would care to read now are the rat holed ones at the Holy See. I have a feeling that they might muddle things. I do appreciate Ecclesiastes now, and then, it barely made the cut when the Bible was edited. Makes me suspicious of those dudes who put out the first edition.
The thought occurs to me that the Christian religion is missing out on a whole bunch of free money.
Since God dictated the Bible, by most accounts he is the creator of it. No Christian would ever admit that God is dead.
What we have here folks is a copyright situation. Most copyright laws stipulate that the copyright is extended for the life of the author, plus a given number of years. See where I'm going with this? God is getting ripped off by the christian publishing houses. They ain't giving him a lick of royalties! The scoundrels!
Some Christian body needs to file suit, naming God as primary plaintiff, and listed after, a whole bunch of churches, fighting over who was going to be his one true representative. Now that could get interesting.
There would be several classes of defendants, starting with the publishing houses, and all others who make a profit on the direct sale of the Bible. Then there are all those wealthy televangelists spouting freely from the Bible. Hey they too owe copyright fees. You can't use someone's material without permission, and permission costs money. Finally there are the preachers who open that book, and do public readings from it. Sure looks to me like a whole lot of people owe a whole lot more to God than they have ever admitted. ;)
I am aware of them ND, but I haven't read her work. Thanks for the tip.
I have a good patch of mint Nana, but it is poorly at the moment; ravages of winter, and my dire need since I got myself into this blog. ;0
EW: ".........so is your emotion really stronger than reason?"
It is the super religious that is displaying lots of emotion based on criticism of their thought process, which is pretty much blind faith. They/you continue to try and add some type of illogical reason to support your strong beliefs in a flawed book that it is sometimes laughable. Do you spend much time in your public life trying to convert people to christianity (uncapitalized on purpose out of disrespect for a large sect who seems bent on holding back the human race by trying to jam their irrational beliefs down the throats of educators and law makers)?
Hey RT - you mentioned - ....for a large sect who seems bent on holding back the human race by trying to jam their irrational beliefs down the throats of educators and law makers)? here are some narrow minded Christians - a common thread here is they are Christian scientists, sure glad the world broke free of their superstious narrow minded grasp, huh? Last I checked colleges are still teaching their scientific principles/ mathmatic principles still hundereds of years trying to be mastered by our "more evolved minds"
1.Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
2.Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
3.Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
4.Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
5.Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
6.Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
7.Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
8.Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
9.Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
10.Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
11.William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
12.Max Planck (1858-1947)
13.Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." " Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Please note RT - Einstein never confessed a faith in the Christian God,but he had enough intelligence to understand it did take an Intelligent Designer.
RT - you've never heard me defend the "super religious" but I do defend a Relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost. ( I am aware that the "super religious are the ones who persecuted some of these giants of science)
To answer your question - Emotion is a strong force, but I'm sure that there were times in your life you faced a decision, that you wished was never placed before you - yet you knew what needed to be done, you hated or were scared to do it, but you did what was needed because intellectually you knew it was right-you could of walked away but you didn't.
I believe it comes with maturity/a sense of something greater - much like a firefighter running into a burning building, correction officers stopping a riot, Jesus suffering an angonizing death for us who are so flawed, disciplines who fled the night of Jesus's betrayal and yet came back to proclaim the Gospel and faced terrible deaths because they believed the world must know, Paul who beaten/stoned and was left for dead on several occassions, shipwrecked and imprisioned, but continued on till his death.
Can you think of any of those narrow minded "Christians" that have made laws shoving religion down your throat lately?
Lets see : Evolution - not supposed to teach the shortcomings of it in class, Prayer - shouldn't pray before a game asking for the blessings of no injuries or death, Jesus - don't mention his name, but we have weeks of Muslim sensitivity in schools, discuss Hari Krishna, etc.. Grave sites - there where law suits concerning if military graves could be marked with "Star of Davids" or "Crosses", The gov't not wanting to acknowledge that this country was founded on Christian principles - go to Washington D.C. look at the architecture and Biblical inscriptions on buildings - try the first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence,,threatening taking away tax exempt status if Churces preach politics or endorse political candidates (may explain the weak and anemic churches we now have)
Ok, RT - I've given some thoughts about what you asked, more than enough ammunition to twist or turn it around, or you can take it as stated.
Nana - yes, prophesy to verify the supernatural guidance of the writing of the Bible. You mentioned before that prophesy was self-fulfilling, yet mathmatically we see it is very very unlikely - impossible?
Now you want to change the basic argument by changing the books? Lets finish this to completion - It is supernaturally inspired and phrophesy is one way to verify this.
The prophecies of the Bible have been proven over and over again..Infact concerning the Birth/life/death of Jesus.
When you take Jane Dixon, Nostradomeus, etc they are right less than 1/2 the time.... that means they have some really good educated guesses - to prophesy in the name of the Lord required 100% accuracy or you would be put to death,,,,that meant they were pretty sure of what was happening.
Too bad we don't do that today huh? It would probably cut down on the false teachings, and doomsday predictions.
OKR - spoken like a try capitalist.
RT - My faith in Jeus came about because of a rational decision after having looked at for me was many variables.
I now feel emotion, because of the love for me, the blood shed for me,,,,grace bestowed on me,,,and unmerited favor given to me......
With such gifts.....how would one not have emotions?
I have had a change of heart. I know believe the bible to be the one true and factual document concerning the origin of man
Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go order some "male enhancement" pills.
Congratualtions! you may find that a man of conviction and no comprimise dosen't need enhanced, his new character will prove to be enough.
Great,now I have to explain sarcasm.....?
Nana I did the same last night LOL. I definitely agree. :)
EW, as you noted, Einstien was definitely not a Christian. At most a deist, so he didn't believe in your bible or jesus. Based on everything I've read, in his latter years he was an obvious atheist, at least didn't believe in a supernatural being, and definitely not one that intervened in our affairs. A lot of the people you mention were in a time when to profess non-belief was a death sentence, so even if not afraid of going to hell, they were afraid of being sent to an early grave by the religious zealots of the time. So, what do you think of Einstein not believing in jesus or professing any religious belief?
In his Autobiographical Notes, Einstein wrote that he had gradually lost his faith early in childhood: "I came--though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents--to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true." But, as was stated, Einstein did not accept the label of atheist. However, based on those of you strong christians, Einstien will be with me in hell for eternity, not with you . I guess he just was't quite smart enough to accept the stories in the bible like some of you?
There are quite a few pastors realizing they have lived a life of lieing to themselves, and "coming out" to admit they don't believe in the supernatural or god. Yet, some cannot quit preaching because it is their only means of income, as well as too embarassing to admit to friends and family. Yet, some are still coming out. Read this confession by a paster:
Your post was absolutely right about some religious leaders who stay behind the pulpit only for the check.
Doesn't it really add fuel to the fire of athiesm when people watch some of the junk and unBiblical views pushed by various programs on CBN or TBN? there are some good programs - but some real stinkers.
That's why it is so important to : 1. Read the Bible and test what a "preacher" teaches to see if it falls within the pale or orthodoxy
2.Referring to reference books such as Strongs, or several reference books to compare various viewpoints, also books about the customs of biblical times .
3. If a teaching doesn't fit within the Biblical text, then it isn't Biblical.
As for Einstein - well it appears that he had a belief in a Creator - we don't know what his viewpoint was at the end of his life, but he will stand before a righteous Judge.
Do you think during Newtons time he was in great danger of persecution? Of course there where several scientists prior to Newton that where persecuted by the "church" for expressing their viewpoints that where in oppositon to the Popes.
" If a teaching doesn't fit within the Biblical text, then it isn't Biblical."
Does that include slavery and demeaning women?
The bible is very explicit how slaves and women were to be treated.
Also the responsibilities of man.
I would encourage everyone here to visit the "Christian Apologetics" site that rr3yvo posted links to. It's where he/she gets thier religious arguements from and will help you understand what you are dealing with.
It's interesting and sad at the same time in that these folks are not allowed to think for themselves and make no effort to try.
The bible also says that the unbeliever cannot understand the ways of God. Really sorry that you don't like that web site wtf and that it doesn't meet your standards. But my standard is the word of God not man. Good try though.
What the f----
Just because the Bible mentioned slavery, etc....that doesn't mean it condones it.
Did it condone the adultry of David with Bersheba? Did it condone the murder of the Egyptian by Moses? It it condone the lifestyle of Samson?
No, it recorded it.
It may be helpful if you read up on some of the words in the New Testament concerning wives - We are commanded to Love our wife as Christ loved the Church. (he died for it)
As for a site about apologetics - well get over it, I'm sure you go to your websites about athiests, you tube videos, etc........
When a specific point is made to which yo ask a question you avoid it, or come back with what is supposed to be a witty little quirp, but when are you going to want to get to the meat and potatoes of it?
Actaully Eastwood, No...
I don't go to my "Atheist" websites for two reasons. 1.) I am not an Atheist and 2.) except for the blog I really don't give this stuff a second thought.
The opinons I express here for good or bad are mine. They don't come from external sources or websites. I have never said there is no god but I think the bible is the largest scam ever perpetrated on mankind and you are part of the scam.
So what's wrong with standing on the shoulders of the giants before us to further develope our reasoning.
Really, isn't that what enclylopedias and textbooks are?
You're reaching for justification. Let it go.
Eastwood some on here will never see the truth. They can't even see the evidence. If it wasn't for the fact that they are a lost soul it would be comic relief. All we can do is pray for them everyday.
If you haven't seen the movie 'Courageous' I would highly reccommend it. Excellent movie.
Evidence? What do you consider evidence? The Bible? What is that evidnence of exactly?
RT, No I didn't make a mistake. I don't speak at Him, I speak with Him daily. There are times when I speak to Him, and there are times when He speaks to me. Sometimes, as you said, it is simply an impression of Him, sometimes only thoughts that come to me. But there are times when I swear I hear His voice. Since I usually have my prayer times with just God and myself to avoid interruptions from the outside world, I couldn't say for sure if anyone else hears Him, but I do. Then again when I meet with someone at work, it's just the two of us with the door closed so I don't know if anyone hears them talk to me either. I have had Him wake me from sleep to pray for someone, only to find out later that, that person might have been in a car wreck at the exact time I was awakened or something else might have happened. I have been clearing land, mowing or gardening, and have had Him bring someone to my mind whom I pray for. Sometimes I find out something that happened, sometimes I never know why, but I continue to listen and follow His direction. If this elicits skepticism, so be it. I know what I know. I stand firm in my faith and understanding.
OKR, God only requires a tenth of what we make, so I guess there wouldn't be a copyright issue as long as the Christian Publishing House is paying their tithe. :)
Hey WTF don't stress over their use of that web site. Why, I actually cited it today. A comment I wrote on the politics blog included a quote regarding the hard right's opinion about Mormon beliefs including that Mormon's believe the Devil is Jesus brother, and some equally ridiculously made sounds passing for speech.
I spent a lot of career years investigating things. A maxim that I learned early on was that a person, if guilty, is more likely to hang themselves by their own words, than any other evidence. The more they talk, the more evidence they surrender. ;)
Dlkes have you signed up as a counsel for the defendants? ;)
Rr3: "Eastwood some on here will never see the truth. They can't even see the evidence."
EW: "So what's wrong with standing on the shoulders of the giants before us to further develope our reasoning."
I've heard it all now. Two strong xtians who refute evolution and stick to their interpretation of the bible accusing rational individuals who have continuously argued for science and evidence of NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE THE EVIDENCE. Now that is laughable except it is so outrageous. I guess it depends on whether you like the rigor of science to be your evidence or the bible. That is right out of Huxley's Brave New World and the use of "double speak".
EW: "Do you think during Newtons time he was in great danger of persecution? Of course there where several scientists prior to Newton that where persecuted by the "church" for expressing their viewpoints that where in oppositon to the Popes."
Isaac Newton was certainly brilliant for his time. The 1700's were definitely not nice to anyone who were open non-believers, but I'll grant it that Newton was a believer. However, he believed that it was god's hand kept the planets in motion, which we've all learned the real scientific reason how that works since then. We know today exactly why the solar system works as it works, and it doesn't need a constant miracle to work. Even today, people run the risk of being alienated (excommunicated) by simply expressing their belief that there is no god. So, it is hard to imagine the pressure that was on anyone prior to the 1900's to keep quiet instead of questioning. With more open communication this is changing very fast and a new enlightenment is taking place.
So RT what is that scientific reason that it all works? How was it put in place?
Do you look at evidence for what it is or do you make the evidence fit your belief?
I don't know if the actual Dalai Lama actually said this, but I saw it just now on facebook and it's attributed to him. Thought it would be good to share:
"People take different roads seeking fulfillment. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost."
I appreciate your moments of civility, and times we exchange ideas rather than ridicule, I do.
As for Newton saying that it's Gods hand that keeps the planets in motion - do you think that is literal or figurative? Perhaps he saw that all this "random cration of random particles that somehow work in an orderly fashion needed a Creator".
Where else in science do you surpass Newton?
RT - have you really asked what or explored thek problems with evolution? do you just accept the gov't mandated science lessons.
So, let me get this straight, we are foolish to accept the "govt mandated"
science lesson that is evolution but we are not complete idiots for believing what the bible says? Is that about right?
Does anyone else see the irony of using the internet to downplay the role of science in society?
OKR, I could sign up as cousnel, I guess, but I got tired of all the fighting in the legal end of things. So I left that to join this forum. ;}
Taxedpayer I think we are all lost until we find the right road. There is only one road through Jesus.
No, there is not one road and that is the whole point.
From a Christian viewpoint, your'e wrong.
No, there is not one road and that is the whole point.Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 11:14 AM
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't Devine in nature, they do believe however the following from the Quaran:
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).
Just a comparison of two major world religions, of which they are exclusive in the views of salvation = at least these are two religions where the roads do not go in the same direction as they have different meanings for God.
Christians believe in the Father/Son/Holy Ghost (Trinity) whereas our Muslim friends believe in just Allah.
Hinduism, If i understand it correctly means to be reincarnated over and over until you get it right - very contrary to the beliefs of Muslim or Christian viewpoints.
Of course Universalism mixes and matches, but seems somewhat confusing as they are taking doctrine from beliefs that are exclusive - kinda like make it up as you go along?
With some searching it seems that the beliefs of afterlife and salvation very with Buddhists based on geography, era, etc. For them they may have many roads, but interestingly their emphasis is not the afterlife, but to the loss of the trappings of life here on earth, there is an 8 fold plan to reach Nirvana, which is the goal fo many Buddhists.
They do not share a common belief with Muslims or Christians.
Eastwood I am not sure I follow exactly what you are saying. Do you think there are other roads to heaven besides Jesus?
Don't come at be with bible verses to try and prove a point. Those words on a page carry no more weight than anything you and I write on this blog. They are just words, written by man on a piece of paper as ours are just words written by man on a high tech, virtual page thanks to science.
Bible verses may sound pretty and nice and they may speak to a specific point but they are no more proof of god than anything you and I write.
ND thank you very much for the link to the "religion of the automobile". Very interesting, plus I learned a new word which is a pleasure that has escaped me more, and more as my years reading accumulate. (thaumatology).
I am repeating the link to the article because I think that others who read here, regardless of mind set, will enjoy it, and profit from it.
The bible is God's inspired word written by man picked by God. Our words on this blog are inspired by various things but not by God. You don't need proof to deny God.
Has science ever proved the bible to be wrong?
What my blog was written for was to prove one thing - there are not many roads to God.
Christians believe that the only way to God is through his Son, Jesus - ONLY ONE WAY -Grace
Muslims do not worship the same God, they have Allah, and deny the trinity, - good works get you to their version of Heaven
Each religion is exclusive in how one obtains passage to their version of Heaven. Therefore; each religion exclusively denies that the other would beable to pass into their definition of Heaven.
Which is in contrast to: No, there is not one road and that is the whole point.Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 11:14 AM
so in short - no there is only one road to Heaven, if your a Christian - it is through Jesus, if your'e a Muslim is it through the teachings of Mohammad - works
As for the rantings: Don't come at be with bible verses to try and prove a point.............Bible verses may sound pretty and nice and they may speak to a specific point but they are no more proof of god than anything you and I write.Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 12:36 PM
The post with the Bible verses and those of the Quaran were to demonstrate that Christianity and the Muslim belief are exclusive of each other and cannot be reconciled as to the same God, or Heaven. At that time there was no attempt to prove or disprove any religion but merely an observation that in these two major religions the saying that there are many roads leading to Heaven is inaccurate.
Why present a viewpoint without going to the source of the two religions I cited? Their holy books, I provided some research, and that is usually expected when engaging in a somewhat intelligent exchange.
rr3yv0 - if there is any confusion as to my stand with Christianity, well, one might want to re-read or ask for further clarification of my views. I believe I have demonstrated my viewpoints by my previous posts, and the above post should clarify any misgivings that may be arising.
Those words on a page carry no more weight than anything you and I write on this blog. Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 12:36 PM
What the f.....
Do YOU believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?
"Do YOU believe there is such a thing as absolute truth"
Absolutely not, particularly in regards to any religious doctrine.
Science has done some amazing things and there are some things we are pretty sure about but in terms of "absolute truths" I guess that would all depend what you consider to be an absolute truth.
"Do YOU believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?"
Absolutely not, particularly in regards to any religious doctrine. Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 4:45 PM
Let me see if I understand, You (what the f,,,,,) say - There is no such thing as absolute truth. -
I'm checking that for my own comprehension.
Define absolute truth.
Let's not change the subject, I'm simply asking as you wrote.
"Do YOU believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?" Absolutely not, particularly in regards to any religious doctrine. Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 31, 2012, at 4:45 PM
I believe that you were asked the question first.
So, am I correct that you believe - "There is no such thing as absolute truth"
FYA, there are absolute truths. However, science is the only way to objectively approach absolute truths. Relgion apparently leaves some individuals with the feeling of absolute truth only in regard there is a god. However, that absolute truth doesn't by them anything in the real physical world, just in a very subjective feeling of that truth existing. The idea of a god has nothing to do with absolute truth. The persuit of truth thru science had reaped us many real physical benefit.
RRy3VO asked earlier in a blog, not necessarily directed at you, but is there any place in the Bible that Science has proved it wrong?
Also I wonder as you assert "science is the only way to objectively approach absolute truths" that really science isn't the only way to objectively approach absolute truth, but that the scientific method of reasoning is the only objective way to approach absolute truth.
There is a difference, therefore science isn't the only study in which truth is realized - but it is the way of approachin the facts, gathering information, and forming hypothesis or testing data from which we do glean the truth.
If science was the only way to approach absolute truth, then many questions would arise about the scientific discoveries of : Nebraska Man,Piltdown man,Java man, Orce man (all proven to be fraud, or convenient mistakes)
or the common misperception of Neanderthal man: Neanderthal: Still synonymous with brutishness, the first Neanderthal remains were found in France in 1908. Considered to be ignorant, ape-like, stooped and knuckle-dragging, much of the evidence now suggests that Neanderthal was just as human as us, and his stooped appearance was because of arthritis and rickets. Neanderthals are now recognized as skilled hunters, believers in an after-life, and even skilled surgeons, as seen in one skeleton whose withered right arm had been amputated above the elbow. (source: "Upgrading Neanderthal Man", Time Magazine, May 17, 1971, Vol. 97, No. 20)
Any subject can be approached from the scientific method of reasoning - but science isn't the only discipline with truth, or the lack of truth as evidenced above.
What came first, the Neanderthals or "Adam and Eve"?
what the f,,,,
so what's your answer about absolute truth? Avoidance isn't an answer.
Or did yo see how you proved absolute truth?
The key word is "objective". Science is objective and religion is subjective. There are people who try to study the bible from an objective point of view, and that is looking for verification of historical facts. Those who take the bible purely on its word because of strong beliefs are coming from a subjective view. With so little evidence, I'd personally view it as conjecture more than subjectivity. Neanderthals believing in an afterlife lends no credence to its truth. Since their origins go back way further than christianity and even beyond most tribal peoples we are familiar with, the belief of an afterlife is the primary influence of the origin of the myth that evolved around christianity and the other religions. Man has a very long history of believing in a manipulating supernatural power in our own image, wouldn't you gree?
I told you my answer. Aren't you the splitting hairs cop on this blog? Maybe you should write yourself a ticket.
I just thought that "poof" man (Adam and Eve) appeared overnight, out of nothing and fully formed as we are today. Isn't that what the bible says? Wouldn't that suggest there couldn't have been Neanderthals?
I am not going to get into a circular arguement with you about absolute truth. I know what you are trying to do.
For some the Bible may be subjective - as evidenced by some of the posts - but regardless of it being an emotional or nonemotional subject for someone, that doesn't mean it can't be tested.
1.Tested in light of historical accuracy -
2.Tested in light of geographical descriptions recorded-
3.Tested in light of recorded customs of people -
4.Tested in light of prophecies fulfilled and being fulfilled(Christianity is the only religions where prophecy must be fulfilled 100% of the time)
These can be checked within the Bible, with secular historicans, world events, and yes scientific data, etc.
Reading the posts posted would also help in cutting back many of the "circular arguments" - a quote from "Upgrading Neanderthal Man", Time Magazine, May 17, 1971, Vol. 97, No. 20 goes into some limited detail about the misconceptions of Neanderethal man.
Yes there is such a thing as absolute truth - a good reasoning is - There is no such thing as absolute truth - if it is true, well that statement is absolutely true, if not then it also verifies itself and is such.
As for the copout of "primitive man" that same primative man built pyramids, and brought rocks over 20miles from a quarry that even today our huge truck would of had trouble moving and then assembled these rocks into a huge four-sided object with mitered faces and edges, these "primitive men" also devised math theories that we study today, perhaps they where primitive largely due to not having the manufacturing techiniques we now enjoy - but it was their technology that was used to build to ours.
Those Primitive men during Jesus's time built boats by hand (have you done that lately) collected taxes, a carpenter, a physician, they weren't just scratching in the dirt -
I don't mind the pharisee and sadducee's of today, because of their limitiations of reasoning,lack of appropriate information gathering, self-centeredness in this universe etc.
They are providing quesitons that others who read this blog are being witnessed too. Shoot, infact it doesn't seem like they have "evolved" much in their arguments since "primitive man"
Keep demanding answers and reject answers given, and refuse to offer any answers in substance that require objective, rational, abstract reasoning.
No one has posed any thoughts as to the great hoaxes of evolution: Nebraska Man,Piltdown man,Java man, Orce man -
I bet that it is still believed by many that the Brontosaurus really existed -
You can't answer or demonstrate: spontaneous generation, order from disorder, and when asked about where the Bible has misquoted/misrepresented something scientifically it has remained silent. I may conclude: 1.There is nothing in the Bible that is scientifically inaccurate or 2. Much like the "primitive pharisee and sadducee's " it's easier to make accusations that substantiate an allegations
Much like the "primitive pharisee and sadducee's " it's easier to make accusations that substantiate an allegations Posted by eastwood on Wed, Feb 1, 2012, at 7:05 AM
typo - should read : Much like the "primitive pharisee and sadducee's " it's easier to make accusations THAN substantiate an allegations
First, you have a massive amount of misinformation that will be obvious to anyone who can get thru that entire post. You won't win any converts over to your belief with such a large display of untruths. How about it rr3, is there anything you don't agree with in what EW posted in his 7:05 am post?
Let's take just one (misleading) untruth you posted: "I bet that it is still believed by many that the Brontosaurus really existed."
Are you claiming that the Brontosaurus never existed.... Really? Let's just say you are technically right, since my understanding is that there was a mix-up of fossils with other dinosaurs, and technically the Bronto really doesn't exist, although the dino's involved really did exist. It is apparent that your point is somehow to discredit evolution, but in reality, your point shows how science is always after the physical truth and ready to accept challenges and adjust to the findings. The massive evidence of evolution, even if your technical point about the Bronto name is indeed true, does not challenge evolution in the slightest. Am I misunderstanding the reason for your statement?
Also, EW, your 4 points about accuracy in the bible are misleading as well. Points 1 thru 3 I agree can be "tested" for accuracy. Points 2 and 3 don't contribute much. Geographical descriptions and customs having some accuracy do nothing to lend credit to supernatural claims. Historical accuracy really doesn't validate much either. However, the many historical inaccuracy's don't do much either way as well. Historical inaccuracies can raise issues about other claims, but not a really big deal. The BIG problem you have is number 4, prophesies fulfilled with accuracy.
Here is one of many unfulfilled prophesies: In 1 Corr Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex or marriage since the world will be ending soon. Well, they sure missed out on a lot of fun for that inaccurate prophecy.
RT, an exert from one of your posts:
Are you claiming that the Brontosaurus never existed.... Really? Let's just say you are technically right, since my understanding is that there was a mix-up of fossils with other dinosaurs, and technically the Bronto really doesn't exist, although the dino's involved really did exist. Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Feb 1, 2012, at 7:20 PM
Really, Let's just say you are technically right .....technically the Bronto really doesn't exist .........NICE, IT NEVER EXISTED we have pitures of it at every Sinclair Gas station I still assert it never existed.
I'm not technically right - the brontosauras never existed - ever.
As for the statement : ..... since my understanding is that there was a mix-up of fossils with other dinosaurs, and technically the Bronto really doesn't exist, although the dino's involved really did exist.......yada,yada,yada
Isn't that really the problem with the :Nebraska Man,Piltdown man,Java man, Orce man - ? mixed up fossils put together to prove something that never existed? well technically never existed - of course the pig tooth, skull fragments etc. did exist just not to one creature or to the one proclaimed it "existed"
I realize that you've proven your point beyond a shadow of doubt, but before I take the last gasp of defeat, mind mentioning where in 1 Corinthians this alleged phrophecy is unfulfilled?
Historical accuracy really doesn't validate much either - perhaps in your opinion, but it does speak to the accuracy of the Bible. Perhaps like when there was doubt about the existence of a King David - later to have found verification of it. to me this speaks to the accuracy and historicity of the Bible.
As to unfulfilled prophecies, what are some? Allegations are made, but where do you substantiate them? throughout the New Testament urgency is stressed - it was also stresed that neither Jesus (as in human form) did not know the time of judgement,nor do the angels.
If you knew there was an apocolypse coming, -a catastrophe for some - would you want to prepare for it next week? or start getting ready for it now?
Do you thnk the Brontosaurus existed?
Either it did or didn't in my finite little mind) - but then if there is no such thing as absolute truth - would it matter?
First, you have a massive amount of misinformation that will be obvious to anyone who can get thru that entire post.Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Feb 1, 2012, at 7:20 PM
The above statement is yours - care to ellaborate or just make an accusation?
EW, so some fossils got mixed up (of real dinosaurs), and science finds and corrects the mistake, yet you claim a conspiracy theory is at hand in order for you to justify creationism over evolution, right? I suppose the thousands of independent dinosaur finds across many continents by many hundreds of archaeologists is all one big conspiracy? EW, do you believe there were ever dinosaurs, and if so, do you believe MAN was alive during their time?
EW: "Do you thnk the Brontosaurus existed?"
I have to admit I had not heard about the mix-up until you mentioned that it didn't exist. So my initial Google of your claim backs up what you are saying. So, unless my initial searches turns out to be false later, it sounds like at this time perhaps you are right, and the Bronto never existed. It really hurts to admit I might have learned something from a creationist.
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