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Welcome to June.
"the absolute monumental BS that is the bible"
-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 11:18 PM
Wtf you can deny me all you want but denying the bible as the true inspired word of God is a direct in your face denial of God. That is not a good thing but all of us have made bad choices sometime in our life.
A Loving God Would Not Send Billions of People to Hell, Would He?
"People prefer hell over complete submission to God."
Accepting Christ is a free gift but it will cost you sin, selfishness and pride. If you decide to keep these traits you will not enter heaven and you volutarily choose hell.
No, it's a direct in YOUR face denial of a book written by MAN. It' doesn't matter what inspired it. My guess was it was inspired out of a need to control the masses and ignorance.
How do you know that wtf?
Is the Bible Really the Word of God?
"Bible were written over a 1,500 year span in three languages on three continents with one theme and no contradictions."
"Not only the unity of the Scriptures, but their lines of perfection, suggest One far above any human as the real author. That could be no one but God."
Prophesy being fulfilled 100%.
Don't fool yourself wtf denying the bible is denying God. Sorry but that is the truth.
Technically I don't know and I am willing to admit it. The fact is, you really don't know either. The question is are you willing to admit it. We are both guilty of speculation.
I do know wtf that is what you can't seem to grasp.
To not know wtf you seem pretty sure in your denial that the bible is the inspired written word of God. Or maybe you are like some that even if you did agree with me you would disagree???
If everything you say was actually based in fact then you wouldn't have to try so hard.
rr3 do you agree with me that some folks laugh more than others? Do you agree with me that some folks are more capable of complex thought than others? Do you agree with me that some folks are more likely to have a broader sense of humor than others?
Just looking for three things we agree on. Did I find three? ;)
Oh but wtf you are easy. Not even a challenge.
If I agree okr will you disagree?
Okr would you say some people laugh more because of complex thought and a broader sense of humor?
Oh but Nana we are all guilty of sin no one is innocent.
Does God Offer Forgiveness of Sin to All People or Just Believers
Offered to all but few accept. Why would a person choose hell over heaven? or heaven over hell?
rr3 you said, "Okr would you say some people laugh more because of complex thought and a broader sense of humor?"
Sure, I agree with you statement.
Nana you are exactly right we are free to make our choices good or bad. That doesn't sound like control to me. If God wanted to control us we wouldn't have a choice.
Romans 8:28, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
What kind of challenge are you looking for?
rr3 I said to you, but did not get a direct reply, "rr3 do you agree with me that some folks laugh more than others? Do you agree with me that some folks are more capable of complex thought than others? Do you agree with me that some folks are more likely to have a broader sense of humor than others?
Just looking for three things we agree on. Did I find three? ;)"
Well, I am still waiting for a direct reply. A simple yes, or no will do.
Well wtf you deny the bible as being the true inspired word of God. What do you deny specifically and why do you deny it? Or do you just deny the bible completely for no reason? Just do some homework I've done mine. The deeper I have to dig for an answer the the deeper my faith and belief become. Satan don't have to worry about the unbelievers unless they want to become believers. Believers always have to battle Satan and he will try to keep us from reading and studying God's word. More Christians ought to post on here because Satan is doing a good job of using you and others to keep us in God's word and strengthen our faith.
Matthew 17:20 (NASB95)
20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
If we could only have a little faith look at what we could do.
Okr why ask questions that you already know the answer to? That don't present much of a challenge I figured that you could do better then that.
Can't give a straight answer to a yes, or no question rr3?
That is beginning to look like you won't agree, even if you do agree, exactly what you accused other posters of doing. LOL
You know what they say Nana "if the shoe fits, wear it"
What would it prove okr? You need to read the book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" in it you will find it is all small stuff.
Do you ever wonder why you have to constantly defend yourself on this board? To label those on this board who express a difference of opinion as "evil" is absolutley mind blowing.
I've never been called a witch before but I have been called a heathen. It feels about the same I guess.
Hollywood couldn't have created a more sterotypical image than you have painted for yourself on this board.
The reason I have such spirited disagreement about the bible isn't so much about what it actually says, but it's how people react to it.
You sir/madam are an excellent example of that.
You feel justified in everything you do no matter how hurtful. It's very easy to demonize someone and once you have done that you can rationalize any teatment. Maybe by legislation if you can manage to pull it off.
It's important for you to understand that I am not fighting your religious beliefs per se, it's the perversion of those beliefs that infringe upon others have to be kept in check.
There may very well be a God and I have never said otherwise although I'm pretty sure that it ain't you.
I guess once again we find with a difference of opinion.
Wtf I never said that everyone was evil you did. I said everyone is born into sin, for the most part people are good but good people still sin. You can't seem to grasp that. I only defend my faith and if you think that is perverse or somehow you think it is your job to keep me from infringing on others then so be it. I will not sugar coat my faith so it can tickle your ears. I will give it to you straight. Most people don't like that and I would say you are one of those. I mean you deny God and say you don't. There is a lot that can be said for a name so what image have you painted? I like this wtf your true feelings are showing. I will keep you in my prayers that God will put someone in your path that can explain God and salvation better than I.
"Satan is doing a good job of using you".
So what do you mean by that?
Satan is the master deceiver. Pride was Satan's downfall and when he was banished from heaven he took a third of the angels with him. So they work as demons. So as long as you think maybe there is a God or maybe there isn't he doesn't have to worry about you much. He has you where he wants you so to speak. You know Satan believes in God and he knows how it is all going to end but his pride won't let him believe it. No matter the odds he will always think he will claim victory. But we all know the end of the story.
The end if "a" story. One of many.
No there is only one.
I believe speaking in tongues is a gift. I don't think I have it but I have heard of people who do. I also think it needs to be interpreted or their can be doubt to whether it was genuine or gibberish. I haven't had the privilege to witness someone with the gift but I believe what the bible says about it.
WTF if Bing can't interpret I doubt rr3 can. ;) http://www.bing.com/search?q=Svvpkbpanrvv+alfgmamr+fgrokfv%2C+kafvvofgvmkarv+afl...
My own take:
Don't put your faith in glossolalia.
Chances are it will fail you.
You have got to be kidding me.
I don't think he's kidding.
No sense of humor anymore.
Now that's funny wtf.
just curious ...
what are your thoughts on speaking in tongues?
if i may be so bold as to ask ...
well said SC ... and i agree with what i believe to be the point youare making.
however - the same writer also said the following ...
"For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." I Corinthians 14:2
"I wish you all spoke with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." I Corinthians 14:5
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." I Corinthians 14: 14-15
Sounds like there is a scriptural place for tongues and a biblical use for the same.
with all respect and honor - praising His Holy Name ...
I think that glossolalia, should be afforded the same attention as shrieks of fervent spiritual joy. Nothing wrong with it, but those around it shouldn't expect to discern a more specific message, than is in a shriek of joy.
sorry but i must disagree ...
tongues is designated in scripture as a spiritual gift ...
shrieks of joy are not ...
there is a difference.
Just a friendly discussion Zeke, so friends may disagree. On reflection I don't think that I made my point as clearly as I could have.
In essence what I was saying is that we can't say for certain that eruptions of speaking in tongues is not provoked by the same locations in the brain as those that provoke other vocal efforts, such things as exclamations of rapturous joy, extreme euphoria, and so on. As we can't, in all honesty, interpret just what is said (I think Paul intimated that), the sound is unintelligible beyond a somewhat vague understanding of intent. We also have that limitation concerning the understanding of other vocal sounds that are not couched in a known language. Just saying.
Zeke the afterthought occured to me that there may be close parallels between speaking in tongues, and skat singing. Both use no known words, definitely have a message, and sometimes in skat singing the singer gets lost in it just as the speaker in tongues.
Have a listen, and see if you agree.
Zeke here is another, slightly different.
Okr is skat singing caused by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and does it glorify God? No comparison.
I think it's both rr3yvo. In the beginning was the word, and it was a song...
Just want to know, when bad, sad things happen to you, who do you turn to for help and peace??
There is a God, heaven and hell, and the Bible is not THE word of God, but IS the word of God.
, written by man, but inspired by God.
Look at the rainbow, it is Gods promise that He will never flood the earth PROMISE hE MADE TO Noah, all I have to say to the unbelievers is when you die without God, you will split Hell wide open, then it's to late to say I'm sorry.
Have you ever seen an unsaved person die?? Believe me there is such a difference as to when a saved person dies, A saved person has such a look of peace that you will never see on an unsaved face. So go ahead deny God, say what you want, one day you WILL find out the difference, in the mean time I will pray for Satan to release you. Miracle happens every day.
anyone do any snake handling?
Does your bible say that taxedpayer? Mine says it a little different:
John 1:1 (NASB95)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Thank you buttons, well said.
rr3 somebody said "there is a time, and a place for all things under heaven". Can you be certain that God inspired scat singing, or even speaking in tongues melded with scat does not, never did, and never will exist?
Check this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAGI0EP1Uw&feature=fvsr
Okr I never said God inspired scat singing.
The Failure of Atheism to Account for Morality
"When you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective moral truth is established."
Those folks rely on people like you to make a living. It doesn't mean anything they say has any creedence, it just means people like you will buy thier stuff.
Literally and figuratively.
Nope wrong again wtf it didn't cost me a dime.
"Literally and figuratively."
"It doesn't mean anything they say has any creedence."
According to who!!
Just like the bible.....according to who? You and a lot of other misguided mortals.
And I never said that you said, God inspired scat singing rr3.
Can you be certain that God inspired scat singing
-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 8, 2011, at 11:57 AM
But you did okr.
According to God wtf.
rr3 read my 11:57 a.m. post again. You still haven't understood what I said. Sorry to confuse you.
I suppose I had better break it down for you rr3, or you will keep arguing yes you did say it. I said "rr3 somebody said "there is a time, and a place for all things under heaven". Can you be certain that God inspired scat singing, or even speaking in tongues melded with scat does not, never did, and never will exist?"
I am going to remove a phrase from the last sentence (or even speaking in tongues melded with scat) that may be making it difficult for you.
Now the sentence reads, Can you be certain that God inspired scat singing does not, never did, and never will exist?
Do you get it? It is a question, not a declaritive
I don't believe I am the one confused okr. Thanks anyway.
Fitting word for the day: irksome; Causing annoyance, weariness, or vexation; tedious
You're right okr it is a very fitting word. It is an irksome task for us Christians to try to witness to unbelievers to save them from eternal damnation. Thanks again.
Why isn't it just good enough for the way you choose to live your life? Why must you demand that others adhere to your specific religion ?
Don't tell me it's because the bible says you have to. The Bible says plenty of things that you choose not to do, so that dog won't hunt.
rr3 have you ever considered that the relentless "witnessing" by some who call themselves Christians may drive some folks even further from Christianity?
Could some behaviors by certain Christians be playing into the hands of the Devil, or even inspired by the Devil? And, considering the extreme sophistication of that nasty fella with the pitch fork, how could an average feller like you, or me ever be totally sure that we were not his unsuspecting helpers? Smugness just might be a thing that the Devil utilizes. At the least I have never heard it said that smugness is a Christian trait, though I have known a few Christians who exhibit it on a regular basis.
I agree okr.
Wtf I never demand anyone to adhere to certain religion. You have to make your own decisions. Will I tell how I believe and where I believe you are wrong? You betcha! You would do the same thing. I guess I could say you are demanding that I deny God. Wouldn't that be the same thing you are accusing me of? Don't dispute my faith just because you don't believe do your homework tell me why you don't believe. Just telling me the bible is invalid won't cut it if you want to convince me. In your words that dog won't hunt either.
You said: "Will I tell how I believe and where I believe you are wrong?"
So if I don't believe what you believe then I am wrong? Sounds pretty demanding to me.
No one is telling you to deny god,I'm just asking that you leave others alone with it. Why don't I believe in the bible? I guess because I've read it. First of all I don't buy any of the supernatural stuff. I don't believe it happened and there isn't a shred of evidence that it did. Secondly would be the fact that it condones incredible cruelty. Don't give me the
Old v.s. New Testament line either. If it is indeed the word of "god" as you constantly profess then you wouldn't cherry pick what you could and could not obey in the bible. It would be all or nothing. Apparently that is not the case.
What am I cherry picking wtf? Be specific.
Nana I am already saved, witnessing don't save you from anything. Witnessing is quite enjoyable it only is irksome because of some of the people you have to deal with. Besides I can't save anyone God has to do that. I can only carry the message. Even if I spend my whole life proclaiming the gospel and only save one soul it will all be worth it. According to wtf I am demanding. Why is it demanding when I tell what I believe in but it is not when you tell me what you believe. That just don't seem logical. You know heaven is real and hell is real so the choice is up to you. If something is true and you choose not to believe it does that make it untrue?
Wtf does it really matter if I believe you are wrong? Hey you could be right and I could be wrong. But your the method you are using to convince me so far is not working. If I believe you are wrong what have I demanded of you?
I don't know why you feel I am such a threat to you Nana unless you have doubts about your own beliefs.
Ad Ignorantiam (Arguments from Ignorance)
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." ---Carl Sagan
Why doesn't God provide more evidence that he exists?
"Doing the right thing just to avoid punishment is NOT what God wants. If it is too obvious that God exists and that he really will judge us, then people will respond to him and do moral things out of self-preservation."
Even the devil knowing that God exists denies the fact that he will be defeated in the end. Just like people that maybe believe there is a God but denies the fact that there will be a judgement and there is only two choices. It is up to us to decide.
New study finds that cohabitation damages children
"The think-tank said a child growing up in a one-parent family is 75 per cent more likely to fail at school, 70 per cent more likely to become a drug addict, 50 per cent more likely to have an alcohol problem and 35 per cent more likely to be unemployed as an adult."
A child to grow up with two parents in the home, married, is very important. Two parents as in man a woman.
an answer for everything. I don't think so.
Nana & WTF give God all the credit, I am just a sinner saved by grace.
Went to Wal-Mart the other evening with my wife and grandson. We picked up a few thing including a 12-pack of soda. My grandson is three and he was sitting in the cart on the soda when we went through the check out. We unloaded everything in the cart except the soda which is normal for us to leave heavy items in the cart and tell the clerk what we have so she can scan it. My wife was in front of me and we paid for our groceries and was walking out. We were out where the greeter is and I noticed my grandson still sitting on the soda and I didn't recall telling the clerk it was in the cart so I asked her if she did. She said she didn't so I said I don't think we paid for that. So we looked at our receipt and sure enough we had not. I told the greeter that we hadn't paid for it and asked if I could just carry it back in and pay. This kind of blew the greeters mind but he said go ahead and take it back in. I came back out with by receipt for it and the greeter thanked me for it.
How many people when they notice a mistake although unintentional would make it right? There are people I have told that to and they said well I would have just kept walking Wal-Mart would never notice. I would say some of those people would claim to be Christians. Christians should be held to a higher standard just like people in public office. But we live in a world today where integrity is ok as long as it don't cost anything.
I have done similar things many times through out my life rr3, things such as correcting a clerk when they gave me too much change. As an extreme agnostic I have never thought that Christianity had anything to do with it.
To me it is a broader, universal reaction to a situation. As I write people are reacting in that manner all over this world. People of every religious persuasion, and of no religious persuasion.
As the above is a fact, what could bring one to claim that the source of every act of decency that they committ is Christianity, and therefore the inference that all such acts of goodwill are because of Christianity? That inference is exhibited by you when you attribute every good thing you do to Christianity, which indicates that you would do no acts of good will in a non-Christian world. Is it not true that you would likely have done some good acts in your life had you not encountered Christianity? If you agree that is so, then you can not honestly give credit for your every act of good will to Christianity.
Okr there you go again attacking Christianity. When I said some that claim Christianity would have kept walking. Many people also would have done what I did of any religion or none at all. I never said Christianity had anything to do with it. I merely made a comment and included Christianity in it. Like I said before okr I don't think I am the one confused. Maybe you doubt what you believe to be true so you have to attack Christianity to justify it. That's ok go ahead see where it gets you.
So okr is it true that you entertain the possibility that there is a God but you haven't got enough information to believe it?
"I lack belief in a god"
"Without a doubt, there are far more people in the world who believe in God (or a god) than don't."
rr3 I do entertain the possibility that there is a God. I have no information to support that possibility. I can not rule out that evidence exists. I have not seen it. I can not rule out the possibility that I am not intelligent enough to recognize existing evidence.
On the other hand I can not rule out the possibility that there is no God. What evidence/information I possess tends to indicate that there is not. I can not rule out the possibility that I am intellectually able to discern whether, or not there is a God. In fact, I think that there is not a God.
That is my belief in a nutshell.
Go ahead Nana please expand on your comment. Don't leave us hanging.
Okr I do have to ask if there is not a God and everything that we see, smell and touch just happened by chance what is life worth? Have you seen evidence of that? Without God, life, I believe as we know it becomes worthless. If we just happened by chance then we can be eliminated by chance. Some people will never believe, no matter how much evidence is presented. The evidence is there if you choose to accept it.
Can Intelligent Design (ID) be a Testable, Scientific Theory?
He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.
( Proverbs 28:13 *NKJV )
Missing the Obvious
I have a healthy mis-trust of folks who profess to have all the answers or who can find a way to rationalize any scenario with religion.
rr3 you said, "Okr I do have to ask if there is not a God and everything that we see, smell and touch just happened by chance what is life worth? Have you seen evidence of that? Without God, life, I believe as we know it becomes worthless. If we just happened by chance then we can be eliminated by chance. Some people will never believe, no matter how much evidence is presented. The evidence is there if you choose to accept it."
I say life is a beautiful experience for me, and many others when taken as a whole. Even the most simple things are beautiful on the surface, and in their hidden complexity. I am thrilled by life, and find it a wonderful experience. I am saddened for those who find it so mundane, or so worthless that it must be incorporated into a religious belief to have any value. How tragic.
rr3 I am glad for you that Christianity has brought joy to you. For you to have felt that life was worthless before you were "born again", must have subjected you to a bleak existence. It helps me to understand why you are compelled to evangelize, and makes your compulsion less aggravating to me. How could you ever stop thinking about, and talking about the one thing that has given your life meaning?
Please understand though that for many of us the essence of life has always been a joy, and perhaps that is at least one of the reasons we have not sought succor from Christianity.
Therefore, do not become chagrined when those like me turn a deaf ear to your proclamations. You must understand that we are different, and likely will never find , nor need for that matter, what you must have to be joyful.
Peace be with you brother.
Southern Baptists losing numbers, having fewer baptisms. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/12/southern-baptists-fewest-baptisms-since...
Thank you ND.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
( Revelation 3:20 *NKJV )
Don't let your world view keep you from an opportunity of a lifetime.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
( Ezekiel 36:26 )
just a note for the record -
the quote from revelation 3:20 is often times taken out of context and used as an evangelism tool. we've all heard the "poor jesus - standing outside of your heart wanting so badly to get in" sermons. trouble is - that does not tell the truth of this scripture.
the context of this passage is that the lord is standing outside of a lukewarm church - the church of laodicea (which may well be symbolic of the current church age) waiting for an invivtation to come in.
many times - churches go their own way and do what they want without letting jesus be the leader - or even a partner - in what they try to accomplish.
that said - i would also say to rr3 - keep putting the word out there. you wade into waters many are afraid to tackle. and you make people think - even if they don't admit it.
just sayin ...
It makes me think. I'll admit it. It makes me think it is all conjecture and speculation.
Thank you Zeke I think you nailed it.
Psalm 14:1 (NASB95)
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
Scares me to death rr3. Not.
What kind of response is that okr?
Proverbs 1:22 (NASB95)
22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge.
Job 5:2, ""For vexation slays the foolish man, and anger kills the simple."
Romans 12:19, "Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay."
Speaking of quotes in the bible, I think this quote from Anon summarizes/paraphrases the New Testament fairly well :-) Is there any part of this that has missed the point?
"The belief that a walking dead Jewish deity who was his own father although he always existed, commits suicide by cop, although he didn't really die, in order to give himself permission not to send you to an eternal place of torture that he created for you, but instead to make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood, and telepathically promise him you accept him as your master, so he can cleanse you of an evil force that is present in mankind because a rib-woman and a mud-man were convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree." -- Anon
You really think so Nana?
God Is One
Unbelievers just hate the fact that there is a sovereign God and there is nothing they can do about it. I can't guarantee much about life except for the fact we will all die. Why is that? I mean if we evolved wouldn't we just get better and better and never run down. You can deny and make fun of God all you want but you will still die and face judgement just like me. Man you just got to hate that. I mean you can have all the fun and games in this life that you want but in the end you have no control. You won't be able to appeal, do over or even say you are sorry. I don't know about you but I am going to put my faith in heaven because there just might be a hell. Finding out after the fact will be just a little to late.
Heaven and Hell are Real Places
"Since most people want to do their own thing, they are probably going to end up in hell."
Maybe literal Nana but is it true?
How do you know?
Is Satan Real?: What Does the Bible Say About the Devil?
"As a "non-existent" force in people's lives, Satan is free to influence them without being discovered as the cause of many of their problems."
well gee rr3yvo,
Thanks for the link to the website. Finally, some written words that prove everything.......
Oh wtf don't mention it you are quite welcome, glad to help.
Nana for the person in your post that claims to not know whether Jesus existed or not sure claims to know what Jesus would hate. Now how would he know that? He claims Jesus hates sinners but the bible makes no such claim. So how would he know that? What I really want to know if you or anyone else does not believe Jesus exist or that any part of the bible is true what is the threat from someone that does believe? I mean if I am wrong what threat am I to you or anyone else?
The other post where they talk about the rich getting legal tax breaks and call them entitlements? Please! How many rich Democrats that are in charge right now are running to change the tax code? Complete hypocrisy!! Funny how those without wealth always want to tell those that have it what they should be doing with it. You know go out there and make some wealth then you can base your opinion on knowledge. Oh I guess whining about it won't make you wealthy. Pathetic!!
The point Nana was that this guy claimed to not know whether Jesus exist or not. So how could he make a claim about Jesus if he didn't know if he exist or not. Oh I guess that would be if he existed he would be this way? I don't get where you can make an argument based on 'ifs'.
rr3 did you read the link NanaDot posted with the statement "worth the read"?
It is analysis, and commentary such as that, which makes me scratch my head, and wonder, how you came to some of your positions that you purportedly arrived at by Christ's teachings.
Jesus never said that wealth was a bad thing. Money isn't either except when you love it more then God. That could be many other things too.
As for wealth it does provide you with many things, is it fair that some don't have to worry about paying their bills every month, is it fair that some can drive a nicer car and pay cash for it, I mean where does the unfairness end? I'm glad somebody can afford to buy a jet, that means someone has to build it, someone has to build an airport it is good to have super rich people because many of us will not take to risk to be rich so we will work for the rich. That is the way it is and the way it will always be.
The entire bible is based on "if's" and your willingness to accept them at face value. So in that sense an "if" should be as valid an argument as anything else.
Seems as if every conflict in the world today at it's core is based on some sort of religious idealogy. 2011 and we haven't learned a thing.
Religion is the folly of man.
Such as what okr be specific.
How do you figure the bible is based on 'ifs' wtf. Is that only if it is true?
The bible and any other religious doctrine are the greatest "if's" ever perpetuated by man.
rr3 more specifically, if you as an avowed follower of Christ, would be so kind as to simply tell us what the two passages of scripture that follow mean to you, we might better understand your Christian belief. Thank you in advance.
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to gothrough the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God"- Matt 19:24
when Jesus heard him, he said to him, "you still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come follow me"-Luke 18:22
Well okr when you have everything you need you really don't have to depend on God. If you are rich what do you need God for? We need to depend on God in good times and bad. There are rich people that don't love their money but the rich man in the bible was not willing to give his up to follow Jesus. He loved his money more than Jesus. Many of us will never be rich because if we can't handle a paycheck how could we handle a fortune?
I'm not justifying it Nana I am just stating a fact. Has their been a period in our human history that it has been any other way?
So rr3 are you saying that the rich are unGodly, and not Christians?
Not at all okr!!
It has always been that way Nana.
The free market would have done away with slavery if the government would have stayed out of it we may not have had a civil war. So try again.
Nana I never said we should promote the status quo. My point is if you don't want to work for someone that is rich then become rich and have your own employees then you can treat them like you think employees should be treated. If I was rich don't tell me that Jesus wouldn't want me to be and don't tell me I don't pay enough in taxes as long as I am not doing anything illegal. I guess if you can't address the message then kill the messenger. Right? You know there were several godly men in the bible blessed with great wealth but they always worshipped God not their wealth. Some even lost it all including their family and become wealthier then they were before. So all wealth is not evil, some have inherited it but most have taken the risk and earned it.
Organized Religion is Organized Rationalization.
The free market would have done away with slavery? Really?....how did you come up with that little gem?
Wtf how do you figure "Organized Religion is Organized Rationalization."?
So in other words Nana you feel guilty to be an American? Do you live a primitive lifestyle so you can feel better? The world is not coming to an end until Jesus returns despite all of your doom and gloom that you believe. You deny Jesus but believe this other stuff?
So wtf how many have used religion to treat you harshly?
I can reasonbly agree with you Nana. We need to be good stewards of what God has given us. We used our God given gifts to make this country the best there is but if we abuse those gifts we will destroy this country as we know it. I don't believe the political correctness of global warming or altermative energy. If greenhouse gases were truly destroying the earth why do they want to make carbon credits a commodity that we can buy, sell and trade? It's not about saving the earth it is about making money and control. Just like national healthcare is not about us being healthier it is about money and control. In the end we know who will be in control 'God'. No matter what we do or think we can do we will see we are helpless. We didn't bring this earth into existence and we will not take it out.
The Question of Slavery
"Who could imagine God permitting such a thing among His people in the Bible?"
Very different from what we had in America. One of the reasons was to save them from starvation, or to pay a debt, hey there is an idea!
Sounds to me like you are using religious ideology to rationalize slavery. Enslave them so they don't starve...right?
That's why I said "reasonbly agree". I guess you aren't reasonable.
Wtf I have never tried to rationalize slavery.
RR3 says "We didn't bring this earth into existence and we will not take it out." And this is the answer to the question concerning whether religious individuals are harmful. The right wing religious viewpoint means that there are a large group of irrational people who do not think our human actions can destroy the earth (can't take it out). These people do not act in harmony with our planet or other people. They are morally and ethically inferior.
RT I must have missed your point.
From the Beginning to Man: How God Declares His Love to Us Through the Design of the Universe
Good slide show depicting evidence for God from science.
to build on what sc has written - if i may -
jesus said the most important command is to love god with all your being (paraphrased) and the "second is like unto it" - love your neighbor
as yourself. the two most important things we can do - according to christ - are to love god and reach out to our fellow man. i think the latter is a natural result or by-product of the former.
also - the bible doesn't actually say money is the root of all evil - it says the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of evil.
preach on brother ...
Respectfully SC I don't know where you think I may have been off target but I totally agree with you. Zeke good to hear from you.
Once again I am forced to point out that what you offer is not evidence in the least.
It's pure speculation and wishful thinking at best.
Naturally it is your choice as to wheter or not you choose to believe it but I'll thank you to quit insulting our intelligence by calling it "evidence."
i don't even know what redress means - ...
i like what you're putting down brother cheetah. not trying to correct anyone - just tweeking the edges.
i believe what jesus was doing was pointing out that the 10 commandments could be brought down to two - the first batch has to do with our relationship to god and the other batch focuses on our relationship with our fellow humanoids.
it's like the church today - many people can point at the home decorations plaque on the wall and say "i don't break any of those commandments".
trouble is - they make idols out of their jobs, bank accounts, cars, homes, even their families. and when anything - ANYTHING - comes between man and god - it is an idol.
i think jesus was - on the one hand - commending the young chap for doing good and trying to follow the commandments - but also testing him to see if he could put aside his idols (his stuff) and follow chirst.
the whole "eye of the needle" thing has to do with a special entry port in the wall of eastern cities where folks could get into teh towns after nightfall ... you probably know that already. ... to get your camel through the port you had to take all the stuff off him and get him to kneel and crawl through the hole. ... seems getting rid of our stuff and kneeling and crawling is hard for rich folks - at least in the estimation of the master.
oh well .. i've gone on long enough.
again - no correction - keep up the good work.
"the lord gave us two good hands - with one we have to reach out to the lord - cause that's what it's there for - with the other we have to reach out to our brother - cause that's what it's there for ..." ... Brother Love
i'm just sayin'
I agree SC I should have said "when you have everything you don't have to depend on God." Having everything doesn't always have to be money maybe it would be better described as being comfortable. When we are comfortable with everything we have then we tend to forget about God but as soon as an emergency or a tragedy strikes we cry out for the Lord to help us. We sometimes don't make time for God in the good times like we do in the bad.
Wtf how do you know and where is your evidence that "It's pure speculation and wishful thinking at best." It's easy to say convince me.
Zeke I believe that anyone that points to the plaque on the wall and says "i don't break any of those commandments". Well they just broke one.
again ... i am not of the position to set anybody "right" ...
just trying to expand on what was goin on in here.
y'all do a pretty good job ... without my interfering.
have a great day ...
and be blessed down to your sock feet ...
Kinda looks like nothing can control the raging monster that is greed.
Christ's message is dead on, but people rationalize it, even to the point of twisting Christianity into a misbegotten money church.
Civil laws try to control it, but are flung aside, as stupid people endorse economic Darwinism.
Economic systems attempt to channel it, but to no avail. Greed always finds a way to subvert the system.
Greed as measured by material wealth, and the influence it delivers, is worshiped by far too many, including those who blithely make room for it side by side, or even above, what other God they may worship, including those who worship no other God than Greed.
It seems the only thing that can impede it is intelligent good folk, who with backs ever to the wall, inspired by a God, innate goodness, or whatever, will never give up the fight.
You know okr I had never thought of it in those terms but you make some very good points. Very interesting.
You're right. I can't prove anything, then again I never said that I could and I certainly have'nt given any links to a two-bit website and claimed what they said was evidence.
You know wtf do you ever argue a point or just throw insults?
I thought I did argue my point. If you're insulted then I'll apologize if you will concede that a link to a "website" is not evidence of anything outside of how far we've come with computers.
It certainly proves nothing at all from a religious standpoint. Passing that content off as "evidence" insults everyone who thinks for themselves.
Wtf if you don't read it doesn't matter what is presented as evidence.
"Christianity is the truth and by necessity all other religions that disagree with Jesus are wrong."
It is intolerant to say that Christianity is the only true religion?
John 14:6 (NASB95)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Wtf you offer no proof but you say what I believe is speculation and wishful thinking. Not much of an argument. Am I to believe your statement is true because you say it is?
I don't care what you believe and I don't propose to offer "evidence" from a website. A website and the bible are exactly alike. They are a creation of man. Period.
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
If Jesus existed (and there is legitimate question whether that is true), then I would like to think that he was a very gentle and kind person, somewhat a model for the 60's hippie era. However, a quote like this sounds a bit schizophrenic. He was the son, the father, and the holy ghost, wasn't he? Had he lived much longer, who knows, he might have pulled a Jim Jones?
RR3 says: "Wtf you offer no proof but you say what I believe is speculation and wishful thinking. Not much of an argument. Am I to believe your statement is true because you say it is?"
RR3, would you think anyone should believe in the christian religion, Jesus, or a god because of quotes from the bible, with no proof or argument to back any of them up?
That is where you are wrong wtf. Sorry about that buddy.
RT depends on if you believe the bible or not. God resides in our hearts through the Holy Spirit when we become believers. The bible also says we are predestined in the fact the God knew from the beginning who would accept him and who wouldn't. Only God knows who they are so I have to tell everybody even though some will never believe.
Jesus is still alive RT we serve a living God. If that was not true we have bones as evidence.
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.
( Proverbs 19:5 )
Humility and the fear of the Lord bring wealth and honor and life. ( Proverbs 22:4 )
We should always serve the Lord in all we do.
The Son, Jesus Christ, is God
Here we go with the "evididence" again.
Gosh I hate it when that happens.
Gosh wtf just giving you what you ask for buddy. But do you read it? I sure hope you do.
It's a website of bible passages and other man-made content. How is that evidence?
BTW, shouldn't you be in church?
I would like to know all poster's position on/in religion if you don't mind? What would you categorize yourself as? If you have another category other than Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Deist, or Atheist? For me, based on my posts, it will come to no surprise that I am an Atheist. I really do not like that term as it has become such a negative term. But, I do not believe any of the world's religions, and I was certainly raised by Christians and attended church often in my youth, and I have read the bible both old and new testament. For most of my early life I just thought I must have something wrong with me in that I could not bring myself to be a "believer". It is only the last years that I've become very strong in my belief there is no intervening force, nor an original supernatural creator. I am a Rational Thinker (an Atheist), what are you?
I'm not a theist of any kind but I will say that I find atheists to be as just as misguided as even the most religious.
They are just as sure there isn't a god as those who are sure there is one and neither side has any empirical evidence to substantiate thier postion.
If I were to be labeled as an "ist" of any kind I guess it would have to be a "realist".
ND thanks for your interest. I read it, and reread it. I had tried to cover too much ground in too few words, leaving too little said. It did not in anyway convey that I feel great joy, and a sense of reverence at the wonder that is life.
I should have just said I am an extreme agnostic, and left it at that. I'm not sure what I said made much sense.
Thanks for your concern wtf but I still made it to church on time.
Thanks for asking RT I am a Christian by grace and a Baptist by choice.
Then why ask why?
Nana science can serve as a replacement for God and makes it hard to explain why something takes place when you deny an almighty God. Science can be used to better understand and glorify God then you can come to a better understanding.
Why is an "almighty" god so needy? Why must he have our worship? Did he create us soley to worship him and if so isn't that kind of sad?
God created us to love us wtf. I don't see where that is sad.
Nana I don't see how religion has replaced science? You seem to want to lump all religions together and they can't all be true. God says for us not to put other Gods before him because there is only one.
Can you give us another helping of that "evidence?" Maybe something tangible this time and not another scripture or speculation.
ND we gotta give it up. ;)
What do you suggest wtf?
22 Reasons To Never Give Up
Give up! Yah go ahead.....
Does anyone think there are moral absolutes and why?
Giving up what a concept, would never consider it.
"I can do all things in him who strengthens me."
Gotta say rr3 sometimes you do make me laugh, and I mean that sincerely, not that I laugh at you.
Moral Absolute: "Do unto others as they would have done unto you" ... or something like that... The Golden Rule. Undoubtedly, this moral absolute is a product of our human evolution.
RR3, as you should be able to tell by the posts, continuous posting of quotes from the bible is rather boring and lacks any original thought that many of us wish we could hear from you. Please try to respond to questions (at least occasionally) with your own view and thought process. We really would like to hear your personal opinion on some of the issues brought up.
"Do unto others as they would have done unto you"
Really RT!!!! Human evolution? Come on now how is that an absolute. Isn't evolution ever changing? Can something ever changing be an absolute. I don't think many people would want to be treated like they treat some others. Not use the bible now thats funny!!!!! Thats the only absolute we have God and the bible. Now that is a personal opinion is that better?
RR3 "Really RT!!!! Human evolution? Come on now how is that an absolute. Isn't evolution ever changing? Can something ever changing be an absolute."
THE GOLDEN RULE is a moral absolute for me. Remember, evolution is very slow, with some changes taking thousands of years or more. TGR is a key factor in many lessons in the bible and other religious books, although they also talk often of inhumane treatment of women and slaves. TGR is a general guideline and it will certainly take hundreds if not thousands of years for it to change. It may be the key factor in our success as a species and if it ever does become irrelevant, that may be to our downfall.
RR3 " I don't think many people would want to be treated like they treat some others.
THERE ARE aberrations that stray from living life by TGR, and those are your cold blooded murderers, etc. I believe most Christians and other religions subscribe (at least verbally) to TGR.
RR3 " Not use the bible now thats funny!!!!! Thats the only absolute we have God and the bible. Now that is a personal opinion is that better?
GOD AND THE BIBLE are the only absolute? Now you are being funny. There is no way anyone can possibly believe that, unless they are purposely fooling themselves. Our lives will be so much more enriched when those amongst us no longer to profess a knowledge about supernatural things that they cannot possibly know.
What I find the most funny about this place is that someone would come to a religious blog and not expect to see the Bible quoted often, let alone complain about it.
PMon, I don't think this is a religious blog in the sense that it is supposed to be for Christians to gather and share platitudes back and forth. If you'll read on, there is a wide range of ideologies sharing opinion and some debate across the entire spectrum. I personally like to hear quotes related to current topics of conversation, but often the bible quotes used here are thrown out like the magic 8 ball we used to ask questions of, and wait for the answer to appear. There are certainly some good parables of how to live a good life written in the bible, but there is also a lot of intolerance spewed pertaining to women. Our constitution represents a much better guideline on how people should treat people than the bible does. Quoting a very flawed document does not present any good arguments for one's point in my opinion.
RT you seem to like the Golden Rule but don't know exactly what it says. You believe in evolution with no evidence but you deny God. Is it you don't believe in God or you don't believe there is a God? Sounds like you hate God and you reference bad things in the bible but where are they specifically? It is hard to argue generalities. You really need to do your homework so we can really see why you hate and deny God. Can you hate something you don't believe in?
RT you use happenings in the bible as reasons you hate it but you don't believe that it is true. How can that be logical?
FT wish you the best for your leg and your dad. Glad that you didn't become one of the statistics.
RR3, I've given specific quotes of outrageous statements from the bible several times in this blog, with no specific response from you. You ask for specifics when they have already been given, and there are many more outrageous passages from the bible that I can quote if you want to address any? Hate god? Its kind of hard to hate something you don't believe in. Any disdain you may detect is reserved for those individuals who try to push off their beliefs on others and who continually profess to know something they cannot possibly know. And worse is when they try to convince others that they know something they cannot possibly know. Your god is nothing more than an adult santa. It gives you the warm and fuzzies (and I¡*m OK with that), and probably more importantly for you and many people, a psychological escape from the hard reality of death ending it all. There is a growing number of rational people who recognize this reality and we also know that we live every bit a high moral and ethical life as anyone professing unknowable supernatural knowledge. Accusing me of hating god is like accusing you of hating santa; quite laughable ƒº
RR3: "You believe in evolution with no evidence but you deny God"
Can anyone try and explain the absurdity of this accusation? RR3, seriously, can you possibly rationalize what that response might be?
I was right RT you really do hate God!! What is more absurd then believing in evolution?
RT how do you know that you live a high moral and ethical life? Compared to what?
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
This explains it RT.
Is that logical Nana?
Really Nana you don't have to buy it because it is freely given.
"What is more absurd then believing in evolution"
I would say absolutely every bit of supernatural, ignorant, archaic and draconian garbage in the bible.
I'm not sure you have any right to coment on the absurdity of what others believe. Decorum and an editor who will delete my comments keep me from saying what I would really like to say to you.
FT sorry for your misfortune. Good to be alive in this life huh?
This is getting wilder, and wilder. If Kafka had scripted plays they would have been something like the recent dialogue on this blog.
Why would you want to make such comments wtf if what I believe is not true? If what you think is true then I am no threat to your sin but you hate God and love your sin that is the problem. And no I didn't pay for it Jesus paid for our sins on the cross but to be saved you have to be willing to give up your sin and evidently you are not willing to.
Nana if that was true then you are a slave to your unbelief. I think you want to hate God, Christians and the rich all the same. Is that a good moral quality? Or could that be prejudice? What would be the difference?
Ahh but Nana how do you know it is not correct?
You might be right Nana!!!!!!!!!
ND, LOL "Alice" crossed my mind too...when I made the Kafka comment. Also in a slightly different way Beckett's Godot.
RR3, what do you mean Nana might be right?
Twas finkt from bkt of odes
Did pzl oft on ye babe
all fishty wn ye loaves
and ye meme rats cd grabe
No Nana, not ignored, more like talking to myself in the mirror when trying to get rr3 to answer anything. His responses remind me of what they call a "troll" on some blogs, but he really just seems oblivious to reason. There are people that have lived their entire life buying into religion, and it becomes more difficult to acknowledge even the possibility that it all might be untrue, especially as they approach the latter stages of their life. It is also possible that they somehow believe it and since they can't rationally justify their specific relgion, they fall back to short irrational questions and continuous quotes from their religious book to either avoid rational arguments, or possibly even to try and irritate those trying a rational discourse. I personally have a great deal of empathy for all "men of the cloth" who have devoted their entire life trying to follow the teachings of scriptures written by men who had no way of knowing that all of the great disasters had a cause other than some deity watching their every move. And, for me personally, all those men that I have known were sincere and benevolent people; unfortunately, their delusion has cost them a lot of the pleasure that life has to offer, and something they will not have a chance to regain at the end. And by pleasure, I am not referring to illegal or ethically immoral actions, just actions that come with a unjustified guilt, whether it be the Baptist playing cards, consuming alcohol, or having a lustful (albeit natural) thought. Quite sad, actually.
Enjoyed the "energy" article Nana! One small aspect the writer mentioned was herbal medicines, which I am skeptical about (maybe agnostic :-) But the overal sentiment of the article is a good feeling read. Thanks.
Gotta jump in with a me too re: the "energy" link. I do my best to live in that spirit albeit not always successfully.
Though some would say I have no beliefs they are wrong. For instance though I am seventy years old I believe my simple life tuned to nature is one source of my fortunately good health. I take no medications. My cholesterol is under 200, blood pressure good, yadda yadda. My medical problems are confined to the residue from taxing the physical strength of my body through the years. Even they diminish when I ignore them, and proceed with whatever physical task I have chosen.
When given the chance, the mind, and body can often heal themselves. Especially if medication is not used to mask, and thwart the signals that internally communicate our needs, to our whole selves. Is that belief some sort of biological spiritualism?
Better said ND.
Just what I said RT, Nana may be right if I read her post the way she meant it but sometimes reason is hard to follow if there is nothing to base it on.
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
( John 7:37 )
How did Jim Jones paraphrase that to get his folks to drink the kool aid?
RR3, is there any part of the Old or New Testaments that you believe is wrong or that you would not follow what it says or implies?
I don't know okr please tell us.
RT I believe the bible is the true inspired word of God but there are things that we don't follow today. We do not have to make a sacrifice for our sins like we did under the law because now we are under grace. There are many debatable issues in the bible but it does not make it any less true. Only if you deny God would it not be true. If you don't have a base for your argument then you will always have doubt.
Okr Jones didn't have the right kind of water, Jesus has the only 'living water'.
I guess you could say Jones had 'liberal water'. LOL
rr3 you said "There are many debatable issues in the bible but it does not make it any less true."
You have popped up with another puzzler. How can an established truth be debatable? For instance how can we debate whether, or not we breath oxygen? That would be no debate, only someone willing to have an irrelevant argument with a fool.
It seems that you have made a defacto admission that all in the bible may not be true. It is certain that your statement is self contradictory.
rr3: Inferring that a criminally insane wretch (Jim Jones) was representative of liberals (actually he followed communistic doctrine) is as wrong as if I were to say that they must have been drinking Disciples of Christ water. He was an ordained Minister within the Christian Disciples of Christ. That doesn't make him representative of the Disciples of Christ either.
Sorry I forgot to put my LOL on the post.
You got that right ND.
Dominionism certainly plays into the hands of the GOP, and not the Dems. Of course, the GOP requires single issue fanatics (like the religious right) to hover around and above the 50 percent competitive edge for elections. The GOP is pretty much for the rich, and doing whatever they can to keep hold of ALL their riches. They've convinced many that the Dems are socialists that want to share wealth, and create a welfare state, when the reality is that we really want the rich to just pay a higher percentage of the tax burden. But, the rich have found a friend in Jesus :-)
Again okr because of your denial and hatred towards God you miss the point. The bible is true but the things that are debatable are how it happened or how something was done. Only details can be debated not what the bible says. Do your homework then we can debate.
Again I know the first thing you all will say is "anyone that does not agree with rr3 denies and hates God". Well prove me wrong?
Really RT is that your best?
Nana no denial of religion? Any denial of God is a denial of religion. Even your religion of unbelief puts you in denial.
Does anyone think that children still in elementary school should should see multiple murders and acts of violence?
What is a Christian World View and Why do Christians Need One?
"According to the Center for Media and Public Affairs, the average TV watcher sees 14,000 references to sex and the average child "watches 8,000 murders and 100,000 acts of violence by the end of elementary school."
"Illegitimacy is on the rise . In 1970 babies born out of wedlock were 10% of all births. By 1991, it was 30%, by 2006 nearly 40%. Rape is increasing as is violent crime, venereal disease, drug usage, and prison populations."
rr3 you said, "Does anyone think that children still in elementary school should should see multiple murders and acts of violence?"
If you were going where I think you were going I am in total agreement with you. I hope you didn't fall of your chair reading this.
It is disgusting, and harmful that grade school kids see all that junk thousands of times, on television, in movies, and on the video games they play.
I guess it has benefits for the corporate war machine that this country has become. It gives us a lot of drone pilots who are pre-trained, and a nation of youth who are callous to death when seen on a screen. Now that is twenty first century warriors ready made. No wonder the world is scared to death of us. In their view all we do well anymore is kill, and supply tools for killing.
Don't hate god, don't hate you rr3. I do find tiresome, fundamentalists, and the god of whom they endlessly speak.
cocksure: 1. feeling perfect assurance sometimes on inadequate grounds
2: marked by overconfidence or presumptuousness
The GOP appears to me to be run by xtian fundamentalists, where not only the wrath of their god is justified against gays and anyone seeking a helping hand, including welfare or abortion. I haven't seen any xtian groups from the left demonstrate any of the compassion I used to think xtians strived to display. What happened to them? Has the xtian religion been hijacked by the evangelical right, or perhaps there never was any large number of compassionate xtians?
Politics vs. Religion:I think what we are seeing is that those that believe the xtian bible is fact have a tendency to lean very far to the right. And, those who take either a deist or atheist view, along with those who just feel there is some karma or supernatural aspect to life with no specific tie to a major religion, lean very far to the left. This is just an opinion, and I don't know if it can be either backed up or refuted by existing studies (if you can, please enlighten me), so I am just throwing this out to see whether any of you share or differ from this opinion?
RT One study says that atheists,agnostics, an those who profess no religion on surveys are more likely to be independents, than members of either party. They found that 50% of atheists, 43% of agnostics, and 43% of those who express that they have no religion state they are independents. In the general population 30% are Republican, 32% Democrat, and 30% independent.
They are by far, less likely to be Republican. There is some interesting stuff at this link. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17374733/Who-Are-Americas-Atheists-and-Agnostics
rr3 you said, "any denial of God is a denial of religion."
You are semantically confused. Here is why:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
Nana just because I make a statement don't make it true I just feel if you don't believe the bible to be the true word of God then you are denying the God of the bible. Lacking confidence in what you believe makes you think that I am telling you are wrong because you can't tell me why you are right.
Okr I hope you are sitting down my statement about denying God and religion was not correct. Denying God you would have to deny the Christian religion there are many things that can be considered religion. I stand corrected.
Would you agree that there is a difference between "fact" and "faith"?
Yes and no wtf I believe in God and I believe he is actual and factual too. I am sure you probably disagree.
Don't you do the very same thing to Christians Nana. You claim to know what they think don't you?
I was just watching a history of Islam, and it doesn't take long to come away with the feeling that the followers of that religion must be really hard up to want to believe in "something", or "anything" supernatural. How is it that so many religions are able to capture fanatical followers based on the claim of one human being having the knowledge that there is just no way they can have? It isn't hard to come away with the feeling there are a lot of very ignorant people in this world.
Just a little off topic Nana but doesn't the liberal media tell you how to think?
So RT reading your post does make me laugh when the only conclusion is that anyone that believes in a religion is ignorant. I don't think that makes a very good argument to profile all believers in that category. Do you think we should profile believers, terrorist, etc. in that fashion?
That explains it Nana. Thanks.
Re: your June 11th statement rr3, hey we all make mistakes. Take care of yourself.
Did schizophrenia, at the time an unknown disease, play an integral part in the formation of religions?
During my younger years I came in contact a few times with hallucinogenic substances. It certainly broadened my mind. I was amazed at the variety of perceptions one may have. I learned that seeing is not necessarily believing.
With altered perception I spent a night on a mountain side in Colorado under a clear sky. Had I not known what provoked the beauty I saw, I may have taken its profundity as a message from God. Heck maybe it was, but I was too skeptical even then to believe it. I walked away from all that none the worse for the experience, and don't even have an occasional urge to join a Native American Church. ;)
I'm in total accord with you on that one ND.
I am a bit troubled by tax dollars going to even the finest of those religious groups to support their social works. I haven't ground that axe because there are so many other things that are an actual waste of money, and federally funded that they havea higher priority on my grouch list.
By the way that is something that Obama doesn't oppose, yet I don't hear Republicans voicing their approval of his stance on the subject. I wonder why that is?
Upon reflection I suppose Republicans don't mention Obama's support as I mentioned below for the same reasons I don't talk about the good works done in emulation of Jesus by Christian churches, including fundementalist ones.
Many churches do "good things" for individuals and communities. However, the amount of money spent on "good things" versus the total taken in often is quite small. And no doubt, the social atmosphere surrounding the church is strong enough for many people to keep them coming back, even when there is a good percentage that don't truly believe. There are undoubtedly church members who go to church as their primary social gathering. It is probably for the same reasons so many people join sororities, Kiwanis, Elks, etc. Any guess as to how many church goers really believe Jesus walked on water versus those that go simply for the social aspect and don't really believe?
Depends if they go to a church that teaches the bible or a social club RT.
RT what amount of money do churches spend on bad things? My experience is that a lot of church members give little or nothing and that is not anyone's business but theirs and God. Generally the 20-80 rule will apply. About 20% of those that do give result in about 80% of all giving. If all church members gave the 10% recommended in the bible it would be amazing what the church could do.
I do the same thing to Nana's responses okr. lol
I think organized religion has become a PAC and therefore should lose any tax exemption.
So wtf would you agree with double taxation? Right now money given to a church is after tax money. A tax write off is not a good reason to give money because the tax savings is minimal. You can give thousands of dollars and the tax savings may not add up to $100. I guess it wouldn't be any worse then the death tax would it?
All business pay taxes on the income they recieve from us which has already been taxed. What is your point?
When do we just give money to a business wtf. I can't speak for you but money I give to a business is usually for goods and services. Money I give to the church is my obligation as a Christian for the good of the church ministries and missions they can offer. What I give is between me and God and is not for personal gain or for a good or service. That's the only difference I see and I don't disagree that churches should be taxed.
Nana I agree with you but in regards to your article about Hagee I don't listen to him and I wouldn't go to his church. Mainly because of the things in the bible that he doesn't believe or just doesn't agree with. I don't agree with his business practices either. All the ministers that I know that truly preach the bible and serve God are not wealthy. They may have some perks when traveling but is mostly financed by the church. I guess you can act like a preacher and make a lot of money or be a real preacher, serve God and sleep at night but not be so rich financially but be spiritually rich.
What Good Is Your Church Anyway?
A good perspective on what the church should be.
Why you give money to a church is you business. As it should be. If you agree that like any ohter business that they should be taxed then it looks like we may actually agree on something. Who'd a thunk.
Maybe we do agree wtf but the point I would like to make is to not slam the church or pastors if they are obeying current tax law. If we don't like them being tax exempt then we need to petition to change the law. If they are breaking the current tax law then that is another story.
That "law" should never been enacted in the first place. That is my point. I should have been clearer.
What instances do you know of where organized religion has become a PAC wtf?
Seems to me that when organizied religion for the most part supports a law to decide whom we may marry and promote that view from pulpit, they have become a PAC.
Yes, but did they follow Sharia law? http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ODD_CASEY_ANTHONY_CHURCH?SITE=MOCAP&SE...
Anyone geting slightly worried that a Michelle Bachman has a chance to become the GOP nominee? Anyone even slightly having a chance at becoming president who really believes the earth is less than six thousand years old scares the heaven out of me!
If a church is preaching the bible wtf it is in the bible how is that a PAC? That is the way God intended for it to be how is that a PAC?
RT how could that be possible? Unless you believe in heaven. If God made the earth today and all the people on it how old would it appear to be? If God made a mature human today how old would they be?
RT what really worries me the most is that Obama will be reelected.
If they are endorsing a LAW that all must follow, not just those of that religion, that makes them a PAC.
Other that that I could give two hoots about what's in the bible.
To elect candiates sympathetic to thier cause. Endorsing "certain" candiates. Semantics and hair splitting.
I know this isn't the norm, but I think especially WTF will be surprised with a description of my church congregation. A very large majority of our congregation are registered Democrats! Many of these are very active and vocal Democrats. I only know of one of these that even seriously considered voting against Obama, and ended up not being able to bring herself to vote Republican. The next largest group are independents. I know for sure of only one family that are Republicans, and they are very vocal also. I honestly can't tell you which category our pastor falls into. We often pray for our leaders, whoever they may be. At election time, we pray that the right choices of candidate will be made - no political party is mentioned.
I've also been in numerous other churches throughout my life, I've moved quite a bit around the country and actually the world, but I have yet to be told from the pulpit who to vote for.
Phil it would be interesting to know if all your members that are registered Democrats are pro-life or pro-choice. Also it would be interesting if they would vote for Obama again. I don't know anyone in my church that is Democrat or voted for Obama at least no one that will admit it. In my church though not many are vocal about their politics. I know our pastor always encourages everyone to vote but not how to vote.
It is not at all surprising Phil that the church you describe is the one you have chosen. If I were a God fearing person, which I am not, I am certain I would choose to associate with a congregation such as yours.
On the other hand, here in this bastion of burgeoning theocratic government there are many conservative churches that put out very slanted voter guides for the benefit of their congregations, and all that the members care to share them with.
rr3, do you think god considers all of your prayer requests? Did you pray that Obama not get elected; will you pray that he not get elected next time?
RT God hears all prayers. Are all request considered? I don't think so because it is not in the will of God for all request to be granted. I never prayed that Obama not get elected but I did pray that people learn about the candidates and get out and vote how they think they needed to vote.
Voter guides okr? Never seen one nor heard of one. What churches or denomination?
Voter Guides and Churches
Doesn't sound like this should be an issue unless you are prejudice against churches. Okr do you think churches should not be able to educate their voters?
rr3: "Voter guides okr? Never seen one nor heard of one. What churches or denomination?"
Dispel your own ignorance this time rr3. I am tired of leading you to water, you never drink.
Man okr all you can do is attack my intelligence I thought better of you then that.
Couldn't you at least name a church or denomination okr?
The subject of abortion has come up and can get very heated, just like practically everywhere else the subject comes up. I hate to speak for everyone, but as far as I know, the few who are actually pro abortion are actually against it personally, but don't want to force their morals on others. This is kind of like my being in favor of legalizing marijuana, even though I wouldn't use it. Others say they won't let one issue turn them from the party they think right most of the time.
I actually had a conversation about this subject last night, but not with a congregation member. I described myself as being pro choice. I think a woman should have the choice to put or allow to be put whatever she wants in her body. Some of those poor choices lead to unwanted pregnancies. I believe she already made her choice.
By the way, this isn't me as a church member trying to legislate morality. I believed this way long before becoming a Christian. Also, I don't really want to spark an abortion debate. I doubt anyone here would change their mind one way or the other.
I don't know anyone who "likes" abortion either but they also feel the woman has to have the right to choose.
What about the man wtf?
I see your point Phil once you make something legal even if you are against it personally you are ok with it being legal. As a Christian though can we be ok with something that is legal but morally wrong? Example 'pornography'?
organized religion has not cornered the market on morality.
There are many things that are morally wrong that aren't and shouldn't be against the law. For example, sex before marriage, or even telling your wife that an outfit doesn't make her look fat (not that I even know what your wife looks like). The Bible DOES NOT tell Christians to legislate what morals for the rest of the world to live by. It DOES tell us how we should live and to reach out to others and attempt to have them join us OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, not forced by law.
Using your example of pornography, it's none of my business what anyone else does in that regard, unless they were also presenting themselves as a representative of the Church. I'll even go one step further. If you manage to legislate something against pornography, and everything else immoral, have you really done them any good in the long run if they still reject Jesus? Isn't the penalty come death still the same? Those not knowing the answer to those questions might read Revelations 21:8 to find the answer.
Thank you Phil that was a very good explanation and I totally agree.
Philemon, good points on abortion. You sound like one of those rare rational christians (sorry, that is almost an oxymoron to me). I would love to see abortion off the table in politics for most elections, as it is something I always thought nobody was going to actually change and it detracted from the more important issues. I thought it was done, settled, not worth debating. And now the GOP has actually started legislating changes in several states effectively negating Roe v Wade. In FL, they are requiring sonograms prior to allowing an abortion. Other states have also passed legislation that will make it nearly impossible for a woman to choose just by making the process extremely complex and difficult. But I understand why the GOP wants abortion front and center. They primarily represent the rich, and without fringe high-emotion groups like evangelicals, the NRA, and bigots, they'd be a clear minority. The GOP who I thought was legitimized by primarily focusing on fiscal responsibility, has turned into a group who want to legislate their morality as a priority. They bring abortion to the table every election, even when we have bigger fish to fry.
It's all about wedge issues. Divide and conquer. Sadly, we are so ignorant that we fall for it everytime. Oldest trick in the book.
Thanks for the compliment, but from the rest of your post I think maybe you misunderstood me. I said I didn't want to spark a debate here since nobody here will change their mind. When I said I didn't want morality legislated from the church, I was talking about things such as pornography and marijuana - things that I think are of a personal nature, hurting only the people involved and honestly none of my business. I draw a line at abortion. It doesn't just hurt the person who made the choice, it kills the innocent unborn child and leaves the father out of the situation unfairly. I'm all for women's rights. I think she should have the right to put whatever she wants in her body. This includes whether or not to have sex in the first place and whether or not to use birth control. Once making that choice, I don't think the life or death of the unborn child should be a choice just because she chose poorly in the first place.
Again, my intention was not to spark an abortion debate here, but I didn't want anyone to have slightest thought that I might be in favor of the current abortion laws.
Those are great points made in your post but not every abortion is the result of a "bad decision" of lazy, unprotected sex. If that were the case you may have a lot more people that would agree with you.
Sadly, There can be many, many reasons why a woman chooses to abort a pregnancy and that is what she must maintain the right to do without asking for our blessing as to why.
What would those many reasons be wtf? Also you always refer to the woman only making the decision, not including the man. You talk like a woman can get pregnant all by herself.
There may be many reasons, but very few of those are worth taking a life. Very few things in life can be totally black and white. When the safety of the mother is involved or a few others such as rape, I can understand. I'm glad I would never have to make that choice, being a man. In the vast majority of cases, whether the regret was immediate or came later because of a changed circumstance, the choice was already made.
Ok, how about "those involved" is that better?
You are right but who is to make that decision? The goverenment of the principals involved?
"the government or the principals involved" is what I meant to say.
I would still like a list of viable reasons for abortion wtf? According to Nana we should legalize murder so it wouldn't be a blood bath in a back alley.
Oh it should also be medically safe and sanitary. What is the difference in killing a person before they are born or killing them after they are born? Abortion is just a means of justifying sin. Kind of like telling a lie to cover up the previous one.
As far a "list" of viable reasons for abortion you know as well as I that is just a crock. According to you there are no viable reasons so demanding that I list those reasons is absurd as is your normal reasoning process.
I have never been personally involved in the reasons or process as to why a woman would choose to abort but I have seen first hand when a family has decided to pull the plug on a terminally ill relative.
Should they have that right? Is it murder? What's that you say? Sometimes the ill instruct thier family to terminate. That's true but sometimes they don't and the family makes that decision for them. The family decided to terminate a life that could have easily been forced to remain "viable" through artificial means. Is that any different? A life is a life and death is death, isn't it?
Do you only advocate for those still in the womb and after that they're on thier own?
So I pose this question to you. Is all life sacred or not? I don't know a single person who advocates abortion for the sake of convenience. Does it happen? Sadly I'm sure it does but I am also quite sure that it is not the case in every single situation as you would have us believe.
So, who makes those decisions? Do you want someone else deciding for you and your family?
Traditionally 80% of conservatives support the death penalty.
Traditionally 70% of conservatives allege they are pro life.
This is a typical conservative disconnect. Even the two sentences taken together literally are nonsensical.
In support of their alleged "pro life" beliefs, they avow not one innocent life should be lost.
In support of their stance regarding the death penalty I have never heard them say as much as even one innocent life should be saved.
After thought, some Catholic conservatives are consistent on the issues, and that consistency is doctrine of their church.
As long as it is medically safe and sanitary right Nana.
Yes wtf all life is sacred.
rr3 you said "Man okr all you can do is attack my intelligence I thought better of you then that."
Once again you misread. I did not say anything about intelligence, didn't even use the word. I used the word ignorance. I said dispel your own ignorance.
You stated you didn't know of any voter guides in conservative churches, and wanted me to name some. You were self confessed ignorant on the subject. See the difference between what I wrote, and what you believed I wrote?
Okr that is no different then calling murder 'abortion' so you can have it legal and not feel guilty about it. You can call a duck what you want but it is still a duck. So don't try to patronize me on your justification. Thanks but no thanks.
rr3 you said,"Okr that is no different then calling murder 'abortion' so you can have it legal and not feel guilty about it. You can call a duck what you want but it is still a duck. So don't try to patronize me on your justification. Thanks but no thanks."
This time you've got me rr3, I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. For the life of me I don't see any of my recent comments on this blog that would have prompted the context of your statement.
Are you sure you weren't addressing someone else who said something that would have more pertinence to what you said?
Nope okr I nailed it perfectly.
Nana is all life sacred unless we make it medically safe and sanitary to end it? Why would life not be sacred if you are "Muslim, or the mother, or the doctor, or illegal immigrants, or poor people who can't afford even basic medical care, or non-humans ... "?
rr3 please let me know which of my comments (date, and time) that you are referencing. I still don't see anything I have written recently that remotely ties to your remark about abortion. Or, if you prefer copy, and paste what I said.
Of course you can play the "not gonna tell" game, but things have gotten childish enough around here without you going there.
You know SC you are probably right thanks my friend.
Hey okr you know you may be right I apologize.
What were you looking for news when you accidentally found that?
Thanks News, I am still chuckling as I write this.
Hey maybe the rapture will take all the unbelievers and then we can have heaven on earth.
So the "unbelievers" are holding you back from enjoying your stay here on earth? Get rid of them and everything would be perfect? Heaven on earth is what you said.
Have you ever stopped to think that a lot of our problems are caused by these so called "believers"?
Without a doubt that is the most arrogant and mean spirited thing you have said to date.
If there is a god, he will know what is in your heart. You won't be able to hide behind words from a book.
Wow wtf you need to lighten up man. Did you watch the video that news posted I only made the remark to poke fun at the video. Wasn't anything mean about it. Shhheeeeeshhh
I would like to know what problems are caused by believers? Who told you that?
I guess wtf if this was and 'Atheist' forum then your statement may be true but since it is a religious forum then who is causing the problem?
You want me to lighten up? And all this time I thought you didn't have a sense of humor. Are you seriously asking me to provide examples of what problems believers have caused?
Nana where to you find meaning in human existence without God our creator? Maybe it is not about being right or wrong but we have to make an eternal decision. Unless you believe in reincarnation when we die it is for eternity. Wouldn't it be a bummer to spend eternity in hell with the knowledge that you could have done something about it?
Nana.... fantastic points on abortion!! You are so "right on". I personally am against abortion, but I also believe the special bond of a mother and the fetus is way beyond anything a man can ever possibly experience, and the choice has to be the mother's alone. The agony a woman has to go thru to come to the conclusion they cannot carry a pregnancy to term is way beyond men to really understand, that much I know must be true.
News Across, that YouTube link on the rapture made my day!!! It is hard to say how much dilusional people have kept our species from advancing or where we might have been at this point in time without them. We would have probably already populated Mars and have life expectancies close to 200.
It is unimagineable to me how humans can believe this stuff... check out this article on interpreting Deuteronomy. How can we expect rational behavior from anyone who believes in this?
If two people own something but only one of them is in possession of it. Let's say the one in possession of it wants to give it away. Should they be able to do so because they are in possession or should the other person also have a say in it?
Please tell us RT?
Nana I don't think the meaning of life is about infinite bliss or infinite punishment. What is the meaning of life without a God that created us? It is all about love and God is love, without it what do we have? What is the meaning of life without love?
Is the "Emerging Church" the Latest Postmodern Fad?
"One should also admit that worship is a fundamental of the Christian faith, but such worship must never supersede or be contradictory with God's Word. An emphasis on extra-biblical experience that deviates from Scripture is certain to bring deception with it!"
Nana I wasn't referencing my beliefs.
Impossible you can't have God without love.
Sorry I said that backwards it should be:
Impossible you can't have love without God.
And Nana I thought that I was being quite clear, I was not trying to be wise.
Nana I was referencing how you and others think abortion should be solely the woman's choice. You speak as though a man was never involved. That's how I reference a possession. I hope that clears it up.
RR3, you can have a whole lot of hate with your god, or any god. You can have hate with god.
RT if I read your post the way you want me to understand it I think you are right. God is infinitely loving but he is just by punishing those that sin.
Does God hate anyone?
Nana I never mentioned the bible as being the reason for love or hate. The bible tells us that but for and eternal God he would have been around before the bible. I would like to know how we can have emotions without an external source?
As for a woman involving the father I am sure some do, I make no assumptions here. But abortion takes away any responsibility by the man or the woman for their actions. That is the problem. After a night of fun the woman now has two heads, four arms and four legs so abortion is a good excuse to not be responsible for your actions but to have freedom from your actions. I believe this country will experience the wrath of God for allowing this atrocity to take place. I believe life begins at conception and God tells us before we are born he knew us.
News with a common creator why wouldn't the chimpanzee and humans make up be similar? I am not a biologist so maybe I don't fully understand your question.
I believe I asked why would God have to have chromosomes? How would you know if Jesus did? I don't. Evolution don't either. Seems you have a lot a faith in theory.
Nana if emotions are a common characteristic of all mammals then why did the human mammal rise above all the others? I believe if it happened by chance wouldn't there be at least a few other mammals that advanced like we did?
As for abortion no I will never have one but you misunderstand the character of God. He can forgive someone that has and abortion but that doesn't mean it still doesn't carry a consequence. The thief on the cross next to Jesus recognized Jesus for who he was and Jesus told him he would see him in paradise. His consequence could be that he was crucified but only God knows that. No matter how bad you are God can forgive if you repent and ask forgiveness. We are all sinners.
rr3 you said, "After a night of fun the woman now has two heads, four arms and four legs so abortion is a good excuse to not be responsible for your actions but to have freedom from your actions."
A night of fun? Does that include those women who are raped? Even worse those little girls who are raped by fathers, and brothers? Is that your idea of a night of fun? If so you are sick beyond belief. Or, is it just that you conveniently forget those unfortunates because you are not truly sure what is right in that circumstance?
Why would your God have given human kind the intelligence to discover how to perform abortion unless there was at least, on some occasions a valid need for it? Don't tell me that it is always the Devils work because according to your precepts the Devil doesn't create, only your God.
What's the latest on the Christian terrorist from Norway?
"After a night of fun the woman now has two heads, four arms and four legs so abortion is a good excuse to not be responsible for your actions but to have freedom from your actions."
I believe it is several weeks before arms and legs start appearing. What about all those millions of eggs that get fertilized every night and either don't attach or self abort over a few days unbeknowst to anyone? Did they all have souls? Maybe women should have to stay under hospital care to give that fertilized egg the optimum chance after every "night of fun"?
Worth considering, we should not paint evangelical conservatives with too broad a brush.
For one thing he wasn't a Christian okr.
RT do you really understand conception?
Okr I guess I was wrong in assuming you would know what I meant by a night of fun. No I didn't mean rape or incest or any of the other things you mentioned. I wouldn't classify that as fun but it does make the rationale of your argument sound better doesn't it? Really it is a pointless discussion because people that are not Christian really like their sin. Don't you?
News I will agree that we share a common ancestor but not because of evolution. It is because we have a common creator God. You like to look at evolution theory as facts but nothing is proven but yet you say you won't believe anything unless it is proven, peer reviewed scientific evidence. The only thing that you have proved to me is you don't practice what you preach. Evolution has not been proven and never will be. Have you ever read any pro-creation books besides the bible so you can have a point to refute?
Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe
The Extradimensional Nature of God
I guess those that believe in science believes that science knows everything. Are there physical laws of nature we don't know about? When you study a theory long enough do you accept it as fact? Just because facts point to something can you make assumptions to make it true? to make it fit what you believe? Can we visualize anything existing in a dimension outside of your own? It takes tremendous faith to believe that science can explain the origin of the universe without all the facts, too many gaps. To believe in evolution without transitional evidence. To deny God when you don't believe he exist. Do you have to deny something you don't believe? Well God loves you anyway. I hope everyone experienced a blessing today.
Here's your chance news
I Can Design a Better Universe Than God Did!
Not only do we only know God through Jesus Christ, but we only know ourselves through Jesus Christ; we only know life and death through Jesus Christ. Apart from Jesus Christ we cannot know the meaning of our life or our death, of God or of ourselves.
No WE don't. I'm sure you believe that and that is ok, but you do not speak for everyone. That is the problem with folks like you. You think you speak for everyone.
Top 10 Signs Of Evolution In Modern Man
I guess if you make something sound good enough anyone will believe it. This makes believing the bible a slam dunk.
No WE don't what?
"We" as in the rest of the reasonable,critical thinking world.
Why thank you wtf.
Impressive ego you have there to think I was talking about you.
Flattery will get you everywhere wtf. Thanks again. I mean who else would speak of that way.
I figured you would come up with something news. Just remember what happened to Satan when pride got in the way though. Good luck buddy.
If it exists, someone will own it. Is that not what everything is coming to?
What's going to be really funny when they find out they didn't really own it but God does. Like they say you can't take it with you. Find someone that wants to and I will right them a check for their worth to be buried with them and I can guarantee it will not be cashed.
These are exactly the kinds of things about the hyper religious that just make my blood boil.
The "bible" is one of the oldest and most violent books of all time. If they were to also ban the bible I could almost live with this.
"The Indianapolis library plans to ship copies of "Slaughterhouse-Five" to families in Republic, Mo., who ask for them, Library executive director Julia Whitehead said Friday.
Republic's school board last week banned the 1969 cult classic that portrays the cruel absurdity of war from Republic High School. The school board also banned Sarah Ockler's "Twenty Boy Summer."
"Wesley Scroggins, a Missouri State University professor who home-schools his children, petitioned successfully to ban the books. Scroggins said previously that the books' content is profane and violates teachings of the Bible."
You know wtf that is the beautiful thing about freedom. Sometimes we win sometimes we lose and sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree. But is doesn't make my blood boil. I am thankful we have the freedom to do what we do.
Never said freedom was fair, just like life, it is not fair and nothing we can do will make it that way.
Boy Nana I don't know how you could read the bible and get all of that out of it. God is just and fair but for some reason you don't like that. Maybe you need to study the bible to see what it really says.
Nana just like you answered my last question with generalities and no specifics. I am not sure that you really want discussion, just confrontation.
Nana have you considered why it is all in there and why it happened?
That's pretty good Nana it reads kind of like a script for a play doesn't it?
Again Nana take your pick.
Nana and anyone else here. Won't you join me in writing an e-mail to the ACLU, maybe they will have the resources to file a suit and get the bible banned along with SH5?
Why would you say that wtf I have not been to any funeral protest? Why is it so bad for God to bring justice to his people? How do you even know it's bad because the bible says to not kill or commit adultery is that why? Don't you think the bible is fiction? Then why is it worse than some other books?
That's a good idea wtf write those emails.
Wtf they have tried to ban or destroy the bible for hundreds of years but God seems to always get his word out.
No books should be banned. That's my point.
The bible should be kept in the fiction section.
I agree wtf.
Isn't the bible usually in the religion/spiritual section along with books of other religions?
Question for you guys and gals. Do you consider the content of the bible any worse then prime time TV?
What is the biblical purpose of sex?
"So the purpose of sex is to glorify God, bring forth children, express intimacy, provide comfort, and bless the spouse."
Sin can corrupt anything that God gives us.
Why do Christians not obey the Old Testaments commands to kill homosexuals and disobedient children?
"The Old Covenant with its harsh judicial judgments is no longer in effect because we are under a New Covenant."
Nana as for profanity in the bible please give me an example of it because I can't find any in my search. Just a scripture reference and I will look it up myself. Thanks
Whos' decision was this "New Covantant"
Sounds awful convenient.
Uhh it was God's decision wtf it's in the bible. You claim the bible is fiction but I trust you make that decision because you know what is in it right?
You're right Nana it won't be pretty especially for the unbelievers. Think about it.
The Bible: "An anvil that's worn out many a skeptics' hammer"
"The Word of God is faithful and true. You just give it some time, and God'll clear it all up. Even if it takes all the way going to the ends of the age."
Whatever you believe Nana is ok with me. In the end we will all know.
rr3: "it won't be pretty especially for the unbelievers. Think about it.
In the end, the only thing that will matter is that the reigious wasted so much time on an irrational superstition, and holding back all that needless guilt. But, you won't know any more or less than the rest of us at that time. In your mind, that all knowing being will torture us non-believers? Not very peaceful is he/she/it?
What needless guilt?
Oh and for the believer's it will be better then anybody can imagine. I am looking forward to it. Not in a hurry but looking forward to it.
Ezekiel 37 and End-Times Bible Prophecy: Fulfillment Before Our Very Eyes
Woe To Those Who Call Evil Good And Good Evil
Rr3: "Oh and for the believer's it will be better then anybody can imagine. I am looking forward to it. Not in a hurry but looking forward to it." "
If you have led a life feeling guilt (I presume you'll admit to some sinning), then perhaps looking forward to an "after life" explains is a little easier to explain. Do you anticipate any type of pleasures and happiness in your after life, and just what are those expectations?
RT for a God that exist outside our physical laws of nature anything is possible. We can imagine what it would be like but our finite knowledge cannot imagine what we don't know. I will be a happy, pleasurable place though the bible says it will.
Yes RT we are all sinners even after becoming a Christian we still have the sin nature. But we are washed by the blood of Jesus and our sins are forgiven. You can have your sins forgiven too if you accept him.
What is the fastest-growing religion on Earth?
Not what you may expect!
I think you posted a wrong link rr3. That one goes to talk of Harold Camping, not world's fastest growing religion.
Signs In The Heavens & 2012
Maybe we should all be looking up.
You're right okr it's kind of like my glasses now I got to remember where it's at.
Your links while interesting are laughable.
You seem like a person who would love to see someone suffer just so you can say "I told you so." Would you agree with that assessment?
Don't give me any of that they had a choice blather. You need the "unbelievers"because they give you a misguided feeling of moral superiority. They also give you a reason to gather with like minded individuals to indulge in nothing more than tribal ritual. The best part is that in doing so your tribe gets a tax exemption.
Congratulations, You beat the system.
I'm glad you can get a good laugh there wtf but if I wanted you to suffer I wouldn't bother to tell you about salvation. It's kind of like robbing a bank and you get away with it but sooner or later you will get caught and suffer the consequences. Sin is kind of like that. Right now you sin and it seems there is no consequence but sooner or later there will be. For your sake I hope I am wrong but I don't think I am. As a 'Christian I am not superior to anybody, I am just a plain old sinner saved by grace. My church may be tax exempt but my deduction for giving is not much. Let's put it this way people don't give just for the tax deduction.
What is the difference between Nazis' Genocide and Today's Abortions?
How many adopted children do you have?
Can you prove it?
Ok. Prove it to me right here, right now.
Make your point wtf instead of the juvenile questions, please for the sake of everybody.
She is black and my a wife and I are both white, just for the sake of explanation because that really doesn't make any difference. We have a birth certificate with my wife and I as parents. We had to go through the court to get that done so I don't know wtf but I think that makes it so. Also it makes no difference if I have adopted children or not.
That's not good enough. I want your names,photographs,your address, phone numbers and certified documents to prove what you are saying.
You know wtf Bill Engvall is right there are some things you just can't fix. So "Here's your sign".
Gee. Don't I have a right to know those things?
You act as if it's none oy my business.
Why do you think you have the right?
You're right. I don't have the right to know those things about you. Will you even attempt to see the irony of that?
That's ok wtf most of your post I read you must wear hip waders because you keep stepping in it. God bless and have a great day. I'll give you a couple of days you'll get it.
You takin' your ball and goin' home?
You're just mad because I led you right where I wanted to you go. I got you to question where I had the right to know any personal information about you and your family. This creates a special problem for your arguement to remove a woman's right to choose. You've been exposed.
Not at all wtf I still have no idea what your point is.
I'm not surprised.
"A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind."
"whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."
Is inferring that some one is a fool, the same as calling some one a fool? At least it is a fine line to walk.
Just to clarify. Are you calling me a fool?
Nope only you can answer that.
Part Human/Part Animal Hybrid Monsters Are Being Created By Scientists All Over The Planet
This is pretty wild stuff.
"But the mainstream media barely mentions the bizarre human/animal hybrids that are being created all over the country and so most Americans don't even realize that it is happening."
Have you ever required medical attention and if so, did you accept it?
Should we use doctors, or just have faith that God will heal?
rr3 does it make you feel baaaad, or grrrrrouchy?
Funny thing about those chimeras, you can never be sure you sure you aren't talking to one considering all those Dr. Frankensteins out there. ;)
Very true Nana many things can be used for good but there is somebody out there to do something bad with it. What came to mind when I read it was Simon Bar Sinister and Cad. Remember them. Look what he created. lol
"many things can be used for good but there is somebody out there to do something bad with it"
Sounds familiar. Sounds like organized religion.
Is Christianity the One True Religion?
"We find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10^157, or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000."
Sure Nana what bookies?
I didn't know bookies could forsee the future. If you know of any let me know.
Sad article news pretty sad that anyone would find it entertaining.
"Do you see the difference between the blessed man and the ungodly?"
"Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night" --Psalms 1:1,2
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.--Proverbs 26:5
If we're all to believe everything in the bible and derive our moral compass from it's teachings, then shouldn't we be concerned that God knocked up another man's wife? I'm just sayin'.......
What does that verse actually mean to you Nana? If it means nothing and you don't believe the bible when you quote a bible verse are you making a mockery of it?
You might find your answer just below your last post wtf. Just sayin'...
We need to be careful.
Should we be concerned of not?
rr3 - ever heard the phrase about casting pearls before swine? it may apply here ... just sayin'
at the very least - you may be doing more harm than good to the cause of christ ... but i don't pretend to be able to judge your heart.
Zeke I agree with what you are saying.
Nana I believe you should be honoring God not those that follow him. God should get all the glory not man.
How do you serve god?
Yes I try although sometimes I am not very good at it.
some of which you speak are very well known - ghandi (whom i truly respect) - buddha, mother theresa, st francis of assisi, etc. they are wery well known, wouldn't you say? i donlt know how many rolls royces billy graham may have - but i'm sure he wasn't in it for the money. don't know about osteen - but i know his dad and mom - who founded the church in the first place - weren't about the money. ... not all preachers are about the money - that's the fact. ... just wish you would quit lumping them all into the same pile.
Good points. Times are hard an our country needs revenue. I wonder how many churches will give up thier tax exempt status?
his mega - congregation is in Houston, Texas, by the way ...
Sorry Nana, but you don't really believe in faith healers do you? Hate to break it to everybody, but just like pro wrestling, "it's a fake". And, before anybody else holds Mother Teresa up on a pedestal, and I believe her intentions were extremely nobel, she undoubtedly aided in the deaths of tens of thousands at least by pushing abstinence and condemning condoms because of the teaching of the Catholic church, resulting in thousands (millions?) of Aids deaths. She was misguided in that cause at best.
RT surely you are not saying that abstinence causes AIDS. Are you? Just clarifying here because I may have read that wrong.
You are right about one thing though if she followed the teachings of the Catholic church instead of the Jesus in the bible then yes she was misguided like a lot of the Catholics today.
Jesus can give someone the power to heal just like he did his disciples. He may have done that for Mother Theresa, I can't be the judge of that.
As for so called "healers" The closest thing we have are called doctors and whatever skills they may possess certainly didn't come about overnight.
It took hundreds if not thousands of years of research, study, practice and pure happenstance.
You might even say our healers "evolved" into what they are now. Speaking of Mother Theresa, isn't it true that at the end of her life she questioned her faith?
You are right wtf we all have God given gifts or talents and some become doctors.
I would be interested to know what people think heeaven will be like.
WTF, the only heaven that could possibly exist is the one in our mind. And that cannot be imagining a better place after death, as that would mean you are wasting the moment, all moments of the life that we all received by winning the lottery of sperm meeting egg. My heaven is surrounding myself with my children, grandchildren, and waiting out those downside times in life that are inevitable to cycle back into happy times. And yes, I enjoy living the golden rule and helping those in need when I can. I really feel sorry for those looking forward to some obscure place after death and not being able to percieve the beauty of the cosmos and the "moment".
rr3 "RT surely you are not saying that abstinence causes AIDS. Are you? Just clarifying here because I may have read that wrong.
How absurd! Unprotected sex causes AIDS, as we all know. Abstinence causes unnecessary extreme frustration. :-)
If you believe that heaven does not exist would it really matter what it was like? Just wonderin'
Abstinence is frustrating because of overexposure of sex in movies, on tv, even on the magazine covers when you are waiting to check out. I mean really how many ways can there be to please your man or woman? At one time it was an honor for a man and woman to be married be virgins. Now it is rare because we want to leave God out of it.
Whew RT I am glad you clarified that cause for a little bit I thought abstinence had failed. I am glad it still works 100% of the time when practiced.
Life is short you might as well laugh.
Pecans in the Cemetery
On the outskirts of a small town, there was a big, old pecan tree just inside the cemetery fence. One day, two boys filled up a bucketful of nuts and sat down by the tree, out of sight, and began dividing the nuts. "One for you, one for me. One for you, one for me," said one boy. Several dropped and rolled down toward the fence.
Another boy came riding along the road on his bicycle. As he passed, he thought he heard voices from inside the cemetery. He slowed down to investigate. Sure enough, he heard, "One for you,
one for me. One for you, one for me." He just knew what it was, so he jumped back on his bike and rode off.
Now just around the bend he met an old man with a cane, hobbling along. "Come here quick," said the boy, "you won't believe what I heard! Satan and the Lord are down at the cemetery dividing up the souls."
The man said, "Beat it kid, can't you see it's hard for me to walk." When the boy insisted though, the man hobbled to the cemetery. Standing by the fence they heard, "One for you, one for me. One for you, one for me..." The old man whispered, "Boy,
you've been tellin' the truth. Let's see if we can see the Lord." Shaking with fear, they peered through the fence yet were still unable to see anything.
The old man and the boy gripped the wrought iron bars of the fence tighter and tighter as they tried to get a glimpse of the Lord. At last they heard, "One for you, one for me. That's all. Now let's
go get those nuts by the fence and we'll be done."
They say the old man made it back to town a full 5 minutes ahead of the boy on the bike!
SC if you consider RT competition then I welcome it. It promotes the study of God's word for myself and others that want to participate. It's a good thing.
I have never said there was no heaven. That is purely your assumption.
RT, you're right. People are so fixated on the promise of a next life they forget to live this one.
One thing I have come to believe is that all those who act extremely religious have major doubts, of which they won't profess to anyone. The reason is that they should have doubt, since there is not one shred of evidence, only blind faith. But, those who have spent a life time pretending to believe what is not there cannot afford to change course in their later years; they have too much invested in living the lie. At least Mother Teresa finally faced the ultimate truth as her life came toward the end.
This 2 minuted Youtube clip represents one of the most rational religious person's views on the teaching of evolution you will find. Take the 2 minutes to listen to her (a pastor) who makes a rational argument for Texas to adopt the teacing of evolution and to keep the teaching of all types of "intelligent" design out of the classroom. This is a religious person I can respect!
Nana, feeling a little conciliatory? I like peace much better than a frey (usually) as well. However, when irrational people continually quote scripture from a single questionable source, and on top to that try and push that as the way the rest of us must act as the only way not to be banished to an eternal hell, I can't put up with it. Of course, there is not real debate with those people, so I have to ask rhetorically why bother? :-)
RT why are people irrational that don't agree with you? I'm not trying to push my belief off on anyone but as a Christian I need to tell you how I believe. The rest is up to you. Seems like people always employ the don't push that off on me when they really don't have an argument against it, but you want me to believe what you believe. You can believe the bible is not true, that Jesus didn't exist or was who he said it was but you really have no basis for believing that way. That's ok now I'm not pushing. But when you don't believe something and telling me I am wrong now that is irrational. So I will say it again I am not being pushy and I am sorry if you feel that way. I do agree with one point though "why bother". Thank you for reading and sorry for being pushy. I really don't think you want dialogue about one's faith do you? Or like most atheist enjoy trolling a religious blog is that it?
rr3, you having irrational points is relatively insignificant. I'm fine with your opinions, however illogical they are to me (and most other bloggers here it appears). My biggest concern are those who want to use their religious beliefs when they are in a position of power. To be more specific, I am really fearful that someone like Rick Perry or Michelle Bachman might have a chance to become the leader of the free world. Now that really bothers me! And if this is supposed to be a religious blog for christians, I only recall reading a couple of bloggers here that profess to being christian? If the rest of us went away, I think there would be just two of you.
"Now, therefore, I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas." How's that working out for you governor?
He does not love the unbelievers --Quran(30:45)
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers --Quran(3:85)
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. --Quran(22:19-22)
God of the bible hates sin but still loves the sinner, but Allah hates all unbelievers. God seems to be portrayed as evil but what about Allah?
I don't know. That's like asking the difference between Santa and the Easter Bunny. It's moot.
Is logic a common ground between the believer and the unbeliever?
"Logic is true, not because it is logical, but because it is a reflection of God's nature, which is order and truth."
1 Peter 3:15 (NASB95)
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
WTF: "like the diff between Santa and the Easter Bunny" ... love it!!!
NPR had a debate about whether Islam was a peaceful religion (or something like that), and one of the debaters who claimed to know arabic said that many of the quotes from the Quran can be translated totally different than what most of us see (example, where it says to "kill" it can be translated as "punish"). What rr3 is quoting can be found equally as vile in the old testament. Which religious book you choose to believe and how you interpret it seems to be up to personal preference. And for most of us who consider ourselves rational people, that's why they are all a bunch of hogwash!
It's a business not unlike the mob. It creates a problem and for a price, offers a solution.
OMG, just watched this amazing video lecture by Seth from the Oklahoma Freethought Convention. Please do yourself a favor and watch this Youtube presentation:
that's odd ...
when i started believing in heaven - i stopped fearing death.
how do you know that austrailia exsists?
Very well said Nanadot. I know we only rarely agree, but everyone has a right to their own opinion and not to be ridiculed for it. I've not been posting as much lately mostly because I was tired of it being the holier than thou faction vs the more intelligent than though faction.The side that I actually believe is usually presented in a way here that makes me glad I already am a believer, else I would probably be turned totally off. On the other hand, others here present their arguments in such a demeaning and sarcastic manner, and just as sure that they are absolutely right, that it has become too annoying to read most of.
I think I am getting this Nana. As long as I don't talk about the God of the bible being the one and only true God and that salvation by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour is the only way to heaven, then and only then it would be a free and open exchange of ideas? So if my belief is contrary to yours then it is not a free and open exchange of ideas? So you don't want to hear what I believe but you want me to cater to yours? You claim that you don't really know but you want to tell me that I am wrong? I'm sorry if my belief includes the compassion to tell people why I think they are going to hell. That's what Christianity is, several examples in the bible such as Paul. He murdered Christians before he started saving them. Do you think Paul would welcome a free and open exchange of ideas about what was required to become a Christian? That's what is wrong today nobody wants to stand on anything we want a free and open exchange of ideas so we see the result is that anything goes. Society wants us to accept homosexuality and abortion as the norm, I mean we can't look at it as sin we might offend somebody. We have commercials about sex on prime time tv and we are supposed to accept it. Well sooory! So now we have become a bunch of wimps not wanting to stand for what we believe. Well Nana I will stand for what I believe, I'm not always right but if I am not please tell me and I would be happy to discuss it. I guess if standing for what I believe is not a free and open exchange of ideas then so be it. But please if you don't know where you stand don't tell me I am wrong just because tell me why I am wrong.
2 Tim. 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
The word is to equip us for good work. Can you do good work without God? Sure you can but:
Matthew 7:21--23 (NASB95)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and ...
Now would this be qualify as being a free and open exchange of ideas?
"I'm sorry if my belief includes the compassion to tell people why I think they are going to hell."
rr3 that is a twisted use of the word compassion, at least in my opinion.
It would be hard for you to not mix scorn with your pity, considering your base belief. I know that you do try to walk that fine line. Please be careful.
Appreciate your comment okr but I would not wish someone to go to hell no more then I would wish someone to go out and have a car wreck, I'm not sure why that would be twisted? I don't consider compassion to be pity. We humans really hate the truth unless it agrees with us, so the saying that 'truth hurts'. It usually does but if you have love and compassion for a person would you not tell them that they were going to run off of a cliff? Or maybe heading for heaven or hell?
"Or maybe heading for heaven or hell?"
Less edge to that, see what I mean?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking out into the cosmos and appreciating the sheer beauty and apparently infinite size, and wondering if there is some higher power, some quantum laws we just can't quite grasp. There is a strong chance there is other intelligent life forms, but we have no evidence, only statistics to perceive probability. Art and music are so wonderful, yet subjective to the eyes or ears of the beholder. Those who believe there must be more to life than what we see, or those who believe there are or might be a non-intervening deist can certainly be as rational as anyone. Where irrationality comes in to play is where those who have bought into a belief that some ancient tribal humans were able to come up with concrete rules supposedly given to them by an all knowing and intervening god that only select humans who open their hearts are able to perceive. And, by the way, those who can't, will be condemned to an eternal hell. Most irrational people appear harmless, but we need to be very afraid of those irrational people who gain power. They certainly do not deserve our respect.
Excellent link SC.
With school just starting up again.
A Speech Every American High School Principal Should Give
"If every school principal gave this speech at the beginning of the next school year, America would be a better place."
Just for curiosity news in these examples you read of so called devoutly religious people exhibiting violence could very well be true. What evidence do you use to determine if they are devoutly religious? Or do you just believe the author of the article? Just wondering how you can cherry pick something to be true without evidence but claim to only believe something with verifiable evidence? Would that be considered a devout follower of scientific evidence?
Jihadist calls on US Muslims to cut off Letterman's tongue
"We pray to Allah to paralyze his tongue, and that the righteous believers will break his neck."
Blessed Holy Ramadan
"Islam is the only religion in the world that forces its adherents, under penalty of law, to keep its religious traditions."
How bad would Christians be if they did that? At least to become a Christian it is by your own free will. But yet I get ripped for simply telling someone why I think they are wrong.
All religion is BS, it just comes in different flavors. Don't you get that? How many of our current problems can be directly linked to some form of religion or religious ideolgy?
Wtf what leads you to believe all religion is what you say it is?
In my opinion, the fact that you can ask that with what I presume is a straight face only reinforces my point.
And if I may, others don't have the right to not believe for him either, and tend to be very condescending in their comments about the stupidity of his beliefs and the superiority of their rightness in not agreeing with those beliefs themselves.
stop looking to an online comment section for validation or affirmation or whatever is you are all seeking.
If you never make a point can you reinforce it?
You know it is funny how most people don't want to accept reality. If you don't repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour then you are headed for hell. The bible tells it plain and simple many times. You can justify your argument that I think I'm right and you're wrong if you want but that in itself does not promote a free and open exchange of ideas. I would really like to hear what you believe and why you think you are right because we will be dead a long time so is there no room for error? Nana I have heard you say you don't know what happens when we die but you will tell someone else they are wrong. Is that logical? You can always make excuses about why you believe or don't believe the bible but it all boils down to one thing. You don't want to accept Jesus because you don't want to give up your sin. You want to set the standard by which God will accept you but God doesn't work that way. You want to tell God he is cruel and unloving because you don't think he has a right to do what he does. Really, who are we to tell God what to do? I mean this earth didn't come from nothing and if you believe that I have some ocean front property in Missouri for sale. Even if the Big Bang was true someone or something had to put something there. If you would put nothing in a jar, seal it up and look at it thousands or millions or even billions of years from now what do you think will be in it? Noooothinnnnnng! This earth has been in a fallen state since Adam sinned. This earth and this universe is running down, it won't last forever and it had a definite beginning. We have to be good stewards of what God has given us but don't be fooled by the religion of climate change or whatever they want to call it at a particular time. We are all sinners but we can be saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. Amen!
There is only one way to heaven and satan would like for you believe there is many but don't be fooled. I know you will tell me I am the fool and I come on too strong but I know where I am going when I die, DO YOU?
Nana I learned a long time ago that there is a God and I'm not him. So that is nothing new.
If no one cares where you go when you die then what is life worth if death is worth nothing?
Where did you come to that conclusion Nana?
rr3: "I would really like to hear what you believe and why you think you are right because we will be dead a long time so is there no room for error?"
Let's see, if we don't follow certain religious text we will all be dead a long time, so fear is the driving force when logic doesn't prevail?
rr3: "Nana I have heard you say you don't know what happens when we die but you will tell someone else they are wrong. Is that logical?"
Nobody knows what happens when we die. But what I resent most is for someone to read a bunch of malarky from an absurd hodge podge of writings and then act as if they really know what happens and try to tell others as if they really know. There is absolutely nothing that should lead anyone to believe ANYTHING happens after death other than the worms going in and out.
This might be what you are looking for Nana.
The Satanic Influence
Who are you to say nobody knows what happens when we die? You don't know but you will tell me I am wrong? Is that logical or rational? The physical body dies and decomposes just like you say but the soul never dies.
Rr3: "Who are you to say nobody knows what happens when we die?"
Answer: I suppose anybody's "guess" could be correct, but I am confident it is just a "guess", and that nobody really knows for sure. And to threaten me with eternal damnation because you profess to know what is un-knowable is insulting.
Rr3: " You don't know but you will tell me I am wrong?"
Answer: You are wrong to claim that you know, because nobody knows for sure, and to claim I should believe what you believe if I don't want to end up in eternal hell is quite absurd.
RR3: "Is that logical or rational?"
Answer: Yes, very logical.
Now this is an interesting sharing of ideas 'I Love It'.
If heaven and hell are real then would you strive to be in heaven or hell? That is assuming they are as described in the bible. If they are not real would we live a better life striving for heaven or hell? Food for thought. If we strive for heaven and we die and it's not true then what have we lost?
I was having coffee with some family members this morning when the subject of another family member came up. This particular family member is one of those folks that considers themselves the most religious, yet they are also the most unforgiving in regard to the imperfections of others. Anyone else know folks like that?
If it doesn't matter why do we strive to do good, respect others, show compassion and kindness and concern, live humbly, share, strive for wisdom, and face the world honestly and with integrity? I mean where do we get that from without God, because all those are attributes of God's character. So I believe we inherit characteristics from our parents just the same as we do from our creator. If there is no God why do we want to be like him?
Sure do, wtf!
What happened to free speech in Australia?
Truth doesn't matter if someone is offended by it.
Good point SC. Few take into consideration that when Marx most famously stated it, that opium was considered a medicine with multiple satisfactory applications. Hence the context that religion soothes, and heals, as opposed to current appreciation of the phrase which is generally limited to the narrow context as a dangerous addictive drug that messes with the mind.
Is that what you meant?
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
( Galatians 2:20 *NKJV )
'Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.'
~ John 15:5, NLT
Such a beautiful morning today the sun glistening off the dew and to thing it is all put together perfectly.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
Misquoted or not it still rings true.
From Koran: Vivid description of what awaits Muslim Males in Heaven
Some may want to go to this kind of heaven? Do you believe it?
why aren't you in church right now?
Rr3: "If it doesn't matter why do we strive to do good, respect others, show compassion and kindness and concern, live humbly, share, strive for wisdom, and face the world honestly and with integrity? I mean where do we get that from without God, because all those are attributes of God's character."
That is an insult to all of us, and certainly not true. Do you think that without believing in a god that you would feel free to rape and murder and desire to do evil things? I don't think that of you, and I certainly think that is an unujust insult to everyone on this blog.
That's the way most hyper-religious feel. Of all human activities, religion is the most divisive and dangerous. It gives believers a false sense of superiority that they will then use to justify thier actions.
It's actually quite sad.
RT I believe there is a God, we are made in his image and we have some of the characteristics of God. We are born into sin so we do have some bad people because of it. I'm really surprised that you claim to be insulted considering the things you say about Christianity and the bible. I don't feel I have to apologize for what I believe no more then you do.
Like I said, sad.
RR3, your comments do make me realize that you really don't have to believe in a god to do good things, but you can do some very evil things in the name of those holier than thou scriptures.
So true RT.
50 reasons to believe in God
This is the first time I have commented on this blog and probably the last; however, I want to stress to all of you, not all people who claim to be religious are Christians. It appears to me that all religions (Christianity included) are so caught up into rules and regulations that they are forgetting about people. I believe (and I stress this is just my belief) God sent Jesus the first time because the 'religious' were more concerned with being right and being 'better' that they forgot the whole message of God. I am really sad that this appears to be happening again. Too many religious/church people are judging everyone else and they forget that Jesus hung out with the sinners. He didn't judge, he tried to help. I am a believer but I would like to think that the way I live my life speaks that more than any preaching or Bible thumping I could ever do.
Bambi come back again, as this blog can always use new posters with a fresh perspective.
Bambi Jesus did judge and will continue to judge us for our sin. The adulteress that he addresses in the bible, once she realized who Jesus was he told her to go and sin no more because he could see what was in her heart. I do a agree with you but I respectfully believe that Jesus will judge each one of us come judgement day. As believers we also need to check what teachers and preachers tell us against the word of God not just go to church and be fed but study so we do know the truth so we can recognize what is not. Please keep posting so we can have different ideas.
Is god not the ultimate hypocrite? Who got Mary, the wife of Joseph pregnant with the "son of god?"
Does this not make god an adulterer? Did god not break his own law? I look forward to your justification of this action. Please quote the specific scripture that says it's ok for god to knock up another man's wife. Assuming of course that any of that is even remotely true.
I'm growing weary of pointing out the constant folly that is absolutely everything in the bible. Alas, I will soldier on.
Psalms 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Proverbs 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. 8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.
You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
You still haven't answered my question. Can I expect one or should I expect more scripture that has been frantically picked in vain attempt to prove a point?
I did answer you wtf. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less true. God Bless and you're right it is really sad. Hope you have a blessed day and experience God in the process.
Bambi, please let us know the background of your religious belief pertaining to your faith in Jesus? I think I can safely assume you were not raised by Muslims or other non-christian parents. I suspect you were "strongly influenced" into the christian faith, as is the vast majority of children in all religions of the world. Have you ever thought of the possibility that all the various religions might be man-made? Did you ever think that had you been born anywhere else in the world you probably would believe in some other non-christian faith?
Technically and if you go by "biblical" law,
then yes, yes it does make her an adulterer.
Also, if Mary had no say in the matter, could she be considered a rape victim?
You answered nothing.
Oh I answered everything wtf and the more you talk the better my answer is. You know they say you can never dig a hole if you keep kicking dirt in it.
You answered nothing because you got nothing! Is god a hypocrite or not?
You proved it I rest my case.
One thing about it wtf you make the Christian belief sound really good. You are best person for the job, keep up the good work. God bless.
One a serious note though wtf it is really hard to have a legitimate dialogue with you about Christianity. I get the feeling of a real hatred for God and even for those that believe in him. It seems at every turn you would like for no one to express their belief in Jesus. Now if I am wrong about this then please explain if you can without insult or hatred. All I can do is pray for you that someone will be able to reach you about the truth. I will pray that God will convict you that he is real and he loves you just as you are. He holds no grudges and forgives us of our sins if we are sincere and ask. If others read this that are Christian please pray for wtf. Thank you.
I suspect that you are right. Joseph and Mary did know all along. It was THIER child.
SC it is very clear in the bible. Mary learned the news from an angel because she didn't experience a sexual act but a divine conception. Joseph wanted to end his engagement to Mary when he first learned the news but an angel explained to him the blessing of the Lord. He also kept her a virgin until after Jesus was born.
News God being who he is could he not provided all the chromosomes for Jesus. He could have also taken half from Mary. I don't know and really you don't either. Personally I think God provided all of them so it wouldn't violate biblical law.
Thanks for the link. That was fascinating.
I wonder who else will watch it?
News we are made in God's image but we are not Gods. So why couldn't Jesus be fully man and fully God. You need to accept God for who he is before it will make sense to you but as long as you deny him then justifying denial is easy. Do you ever run some of these questions by your pastor? You seem to be really searching for answers maybe he could help.
Rr3: "News we are made in God's image but we are not Gods. So why couldn't Jesus be fully man and fully God. You need to accept God for who he is before it will make sense to you.." >
Based on the way ALL religions have been fashioned, there is no doubt that "we made God in our image", not the other way around. To imagine that there is some entity "in our image" lurking on the other side of the galaxy (or in another dimension) that can somehow watch every one of us and manipulate physics is frankly absurd. To follow the obscure teachings of such a small and vague book (such as the bible or koran) as an explanation for such an entity is equally absurd.
You got it just a little backwards there RT.
It is easy to understand how we used to believe the sun revolved around our planet, since we believed WE were the center of the universe. It is just as easy to see how tribal man also thought there were supernatural beings in their image (or made us in their image). Without calling out any names, there are still lots of tribal thinking people.
Some may find this interesting if not a little too ironic in the regards of the possibility history repeating itself.
WTF, interesting read. Substitute Muslim for Jew, and there you have it. By the way, not only in the good ole U. S. A., but the rising tide in Germany (specifically Turks), France, and other parts of Europe.
Like the nastiest of cancers it at times goes into remission, but always returns. We can't cure it. We can only fight back to weaken it.
Do you really think Hitler was a Christian?
Funny how the atheist always uses the word magic in place of divine. I never said it was magic you did to justify your denial of God. Do you just not believe in God or do you believe there is no God?
Why would you hate something you don't believe in?
More to the point rr3, Hitler thought he was a Christian.
I've never heard anyone here say they are an atheist. Our job is to keep religion in check.
Science, Lies and The Ultimate Truth
How do you know okr? Anyone that knows what a Christian is or what they should be would not have done what he did. At least no one in their right mind.
Ok wtf who appointed you to this job? What qualifications do you have to do that? First time I heard that one.
Wtf do you lack belief in God or do you just believe there is no God?
Nana is that kind of like liberals playing on emotions and fears. Is that any different?
So does that mean we shouldn't be Christian because of Hitler?
News do you think we have discovered all of the physical laws of the universe?
Who appointed me to the postion of keeping religion in check? Well....you did in a round about way.. I am also not the only one.
You asked if I believe in god or not. The answer is I don't know and neither do you regardless of whatever rebuttle scripture you may post. Once again, that proves nothing.
As far as keeping relgion in check, it has nothing to do with keeping you from observing your faith however you choose. It has to do with providing constant reminders to the religious that they do not speak for everyone and they will be opposed when the need arises. The amount of backlash is really up to them.
you quoted "women were discriminated against in employment and forced out or bribed with numerous social benefits."
sounds alot like modern day USA - don;t you think?
I believe that we all believe in something. Would you agree? But some hide behind the facade that "I don't know" but tell others that they don't know either. If you don't know can you tell someone that they are wrong? Whether you believe or not that is just not a logical statement. Maybe they do know but your presupposition will not let you believe. Just a thought'
That "some" you are refering would be me. It's ok you can say it. You are grasping at straws. My biggest problem with religion is the level of certitude based on nothing more than what amount to fairy tales in a book derived by humans a few thousand years ago. And it's because of that cetitude based on fairy tales that religion has appointed itself the moral authority of all, when in reality has been repsonsible for some of the most immoral deeds in history.
That would be great SC so pick something and run with it. The only religion though that really people are against is Christianity. If you are a Christian you will defend it, if not then I guess it could be whatever feels good. Of course those that don't know are always certain you are wrong. It was the same in Jesus's time they didn't know but they wanted to tell Jesus he was wrong. Look what they did to him.
As a Christian I compare other religions to that to determine whether it is true or false. What is really wrong with that?
You know wtf take religion completely out of the picture. Now how do you determine what is moral or immoral? That is your job to determine that isn't it?
If we could take religion out of it then we would'nt be having this discussion now would we?
Why can't we take religion out of it?
The question is are you capable of taking religion out of anything? I know where you are going with this. You are going to argue that the origins of morality is religion, therefore only the religious can been considered moral. That will then give you some misguided feelings of superiority about your religion whereas I'll argue that some of the most immoral people are actually those who consider themselves religious. Round and round. That's not to say that religous and non-relgious can't be moral, but to say one side holds dominion over the other is absurd.
Taking a cue from SC I have to say that though all religions may be instructive, that I have found Buddhism, and Taoism the most so for me.
There are several of us that post here that are agnostic to varying degrees, or atheistic. I am curious as to what if any religion they believe has been most instructive. If this draws comment then we might be interested in why each of us holds such opinion.
I see no reason why being a member of, or a believer in a certain faith would preclude Christians, or any other from the discussion. I believe that some of them have most likely explored other religions.
So why can't we take religion out of the equation, just do away with it altogether?
Is that kinda like "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" rr3? ;)
It doesn't matter what religion is picked, if it claims to follow some supernatural force and has a book explaining its doctrine, then it is irrational (border line crazy). If it doesn't try to convert you or directly influence others, I'm ok with that as well. Unfortunately, christianity and the muslim religion are way right of center of anything tolerable. Please keep the fear of your boogy man away from me.
I guess I will reword it okr. Can we take religion out of our lives completely?
RT would you like for people to believe like you do?
RT do you live your life based on what you do believe or what you don't believe?
I think I see what you mean rr3. It is a good question. I think a human being would be hard pressed to live an entire life without ever considering religious concepts. If you mean can a person live without active participation in a specific religious institution, nor even identification with a specific religious entity, that is done all the time.
If I missed your point, share more, and I will try again.
From atheism to Buddhism to Christ - Tucker Russell's Story
Interesting that God would touch a young man's heart to be able to discern the truth. Praise God
Okr I guess if we were born and raised in complete isolation what would we think about? Of course survival but if we looked to the sky or a tree or a flower what would we think about? Purely a hypothetical situation with no human contact in other words no outside influence.
rr3 in your examination of various religions, other than your own, as you have gone through life, have you ever read something that gave you an aha moment? Something that became a part of what you believe about life?
No trick question, just curious, just sliding the issue from Christianity for a bit.
rr3 Re: your isolated birth statement. I think if a person remained isolated in that circumstances thoughts of the unknown, and perhaps even a yearning for the unknown would manifest in some fashion.
I think that you would say it was God contacting him. I would say it was the individuals mind instigating the process.
So that puts us back to the same old discussion. Let's see where else we can go with the conversation.
I can't say that I have seen anything in other religions that compares to Christianity. But I was born and raised in a Christian home and was saved at a young age. Have I questioned my salvation at times? Yes but never to the point to question whether God was true or not.
As for being isolated what would a person's mind think about. Would it have to be God? If not God what else would it be?
Interesting SC how we each have our own thoughts about this and each one is correct because it is a situation that we cannot test or verify. Let's go back to that human being born. Let's say this this is the first evolved human vs. the first created human. Separate but equal scenarios. Would that change how we would perceive the outcome?
Wouldn't a human be a human whether it was created or evolved? By definition.
Thanks for making my point perfectly.
Do you believe that there are moral absolutes?
If there is a god and we'll all have to stand before him someday, I will welcome the opportnity to ask him what the hell he was thinking.
So Nana when you don't like the question you make accusations. Many atheist do that. Why do you have such a hatred for God? Just wonderin'
SC you said in one of your post that if we were isolated we wouldn't have language unless it was given to us. To have a moral absolute would it have to be given to us?
No Nana you do hate God and when I can make sense of what exactly you are asking I will answer. Thank you.
Ok it started with Adam and Eve I think they were able to communicate. Adam named all the animals and they talked to God after they sinned because they realized they were naked. God gave them language.
What did I lie about Nana?
If you are isolated and without others, it would be impossible to have either language or 'morals'.
-- Posted by NanaDot on Tue, Aug 30, 2011, at 4:53 PM
How do you know that?
Adam and Eve huh? Please....what a crock. The sad thing is you actually seem smarter than that.
You know wtf if you be refreshing if you would offer a counter argument to my belief instead of trying to portray me as stupid for what I believe. I don't know maybe I am stupid for thinking that would happen.
Well rr3yvo....just stop and think about it for a minute. Use the critical thinking skills you have and ask yourself some serious questions.
I don't think you are stupid and that's my point.
Talking snakes? People appearing out of thin air?
The list goes on and on and that's just Christianity. That doesn't even cover the broad range of other religious absurdites. And let's not forget this all comes from a time before the most basic understanding of our world and our universe. Ask yourself also about the true motivation behind those who have the most to gain. For instance, why would the Pope need to live in such opulence?
I know what you say on here, but do you really and truly believe all that?
Interesting read Nana and just like us they seem to have learned from their surroundings. Doesn't seem that they would look at their surrounding in wonderment or that God intervened in their life. Just like animals their time is consumed by survival.
See wtf you want to portray what I believe as absurd. All I have asked is what you believe and why you believe it and you always get defensive telling me what I believe is absurd. Or you want to play some other mind games to downplay another's intellect. Yes I believe what the bible says when everything is taken in context of the time and the culture it was written in. I don't know why you hate God to always want to look at his word as absurd. The bible says some will never understand maybe I just need to accept that. Atheism always has to come from a negative. You don't believe in God so you constantly have to prove he doesn't exist. Do you base your action in life on what you do believe or what you don't believe.
Also wtf if you want to reference events in the bible give me the chapter and verse and I will attempt to explain why I believe it. It is hard to follow generalities.
Trying to get an atheist to validate his atheism.
Isolated Man: the answer lies in our long history. First, there was no adam or eve, only very tiny, mostly indiscernible changes over thousands of years until our species started a slight variation from a common ancestor 5-8 million years ago, where one variation evolved ever so slowly into the great apes and we evolved down another path. RR3 refuses to believe the science behind that, and I don't understand why. As a deluded child I could easily believe science and use an interpretation that the bible's timeline was in god days, not human. Can't you buy into that RR3? That's pretty much what some religious people do to justify their irrational belief and still maintain some rational belief in what science has to offer.
Second, there were only pockets of isolated humans, that over time eventually banded together in larger groups for obvious gains. Those isolated groups had to deal with earthquakes, tsunamis, plagues, and a multitude of unexplainable disasters. And that is where religion was born, trying to explain the unexplainable and personifying some very powerful skydaddy pulling the strings. So, if you want to ask what would happen by isolating someone, just look back at the history of our species and you would see that they would (eventually) become religious (or superstitious) just like many are today. The real question to me is why we have large pockets of various religions around the world who continue to cling to downright crazy stuff. Our evolution away from that is very slow, but I believe as information availability continues to increase that sanity will eventually prevail.
There you go RR3, now you know. Any part of that you believe is not possible?
I hate nothing. You have never, ever heard me say there is no god and I have never, ever said that I am an athiest. You are the one that keeps saying that. What I don't believe is that one set of ancient writings is anymore accurate than any of the other myriad of ignorant (not knowing any better) and draconian writings that came before or after.
You say you believe the bible in the context of the time and culture it was written in.
What is that supposed to mean? Like a said before the time and culture in which it was written didn't have even the most basic concept of our world and our universe. That's not to say that we know everthing but at least we know the world is round. So how do you feel about it in today's culture knowing what we know now? IF this were 4000 years ago I might even believe it with you but c'mon, really?
How do you feel about what the scientologists believe? What about ancient greek mythology?
Before you start saying the bible is the "only" word of god, every other religion has said that as well so it's really not a worthy arguement.
All of it. You have nothing to base it on. What did we evolve from?
Rr3: "RT would you like for people to believe like you do?"
Answer: Yes, only as far as everyone being able to base their belief on some form of rational thought process.
Rr3: "RT do you live your life based on what you do believe or what you don't believe?"
Answer: Both. How about you?
You deny God so what are you or does that not fit in your argument? You don't believe the bible but you believe other documents that are not nearly as reliable. Denying that the bible is not accurate means you haven't done your homework or don't want to accept the evidence which is it? Why do you want to prove there is no God if you aren't an atheist? Please tell us what you are.
Things atheists should consider when debating Christians
I base my life on what I do believe. The things we believe are what we live by not what we don't believe. So you believe there is no God?
rr3, assuming you believe every last word in the bible, do you interpret it such that it says (and you believe) that homosexuality is an abomination?
rr3: "so you believe there is no god?"
yes, I am 100 percent confident that there is no god.
btw, I am also 100 percent confident that most of the time I am not 100 percent correct.
If you must label me I prefer "New and Improved!"
What I believe is that no matter how we got here I don't think for a moment it went down the way the bible says it did no more that I believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. I have a cool old book that talks about Santa, should I believe it's true was well?
Scientist can acutally observe evolution. This passes scrutiny and peer review. Other than the "bible" science has yet you observe a talking snake. That is also a fact. As I type my response into a device science created from sand, petroleum and electrons I think I'm gonna have to lean towards science on this one. Can I expect your response on a stone tablet or will you be using a computer?
Well Cheetah, it ain't gonna happen. About forty, or fifty postings ago I tried to change the subject...something about Buddhism, Taoism, and stuff. No one responded. It was immediately back to Ring Around The Rosie with rr3. LOL
Now I admit that the topic I addressed, and questions I asked may have bordered on the esoteric, but come on, less interesting than continuing the circle game with rr3? YOU THE MAN rr3!
From "The Tao of Pooh" I recommend that little book. See the links below for more information.
"We see three men standing around a vat of vinegar. Each has dipped his finger into the vinegar and has tasted it. The expression on each man's face shows his individual reaction. Since the painting is allegorical, we are to understand that these are no ordinary vinegar tasters, but are instead representatives of the "Three Teachings" of China, and that the vinegar they are sampling represents the Essence of Life. The three masters are K'ung Fu-tse (Confucius), Buddha, and Lao-tse, author of the oldest existing book of Taoism. The first has a sour look on his face, the second wears a bitter expression, but the third man is smiling.
To Kung Fu-tse (kung FOOdsuh), life seemed rather sour. He believed that the present was out step with the past, and that the government of man on earth was out of harmony with the Way of Heaven, the government of, the universe. Therefore, he emphasized reverence for the Ancestors, as well as for the ancient rituals and ceremonies in which the emperor, as the Son of Heaven, acted as intermediary between limitless heaven and limited earth. Under Confucianism, the use of precisely measured court music, prescribed steps, actions, and phrases all added up to an extremely complex system of rituals, each used for a particular purpose at a particular time. A saying was recorded about K'ung Fu-tse: "If the mat was not straight, the Master would not sit." This ought to give an indication of the extent to which things were carried out under Confucianism.
To Buddha, the second figure in the painting, life on earth was bitter, filled with attachments and desires that led to suffering. The world was seen as a setter of traps, a generator of illusions, a revolving wheel of pain for all creatures. In order to find peace, the Buddhist considered it necessary to transcend "the world of dust" and reach Nirvana, literally a state of "no wind." Although the essentially optimistic attitude of the Chinese altered Buddhism considerably after it was brought in from its native India, the devout Buddhist often saw the way to Nirvana interrupted all the same by the bitter wind of everyday existence.
To Lao-tse (LAOdsuh), the harmony that naturally existed between heaven and earth from the very beginning could be found by anyone at any time, but not by following the rules of the Confucianists. As he stated in his Tao To Ching (DAO DEH JEENG), the "Tao Virtue Book," earth was in essence a reflection of heaven, run by the same laws - not by the laws of men. These laws affected not only the spinning of distant planets, but the activities of the birds in the forest and the fish in the sea. According to Lao-tse, the more man interfered with the natural balance produced and governed by the universal laws, the further away the harmony retreated into the distance. The more forcing, the more trouble. Whether heavy or fight, wet or dry, fast or slow, everything had its own nature already within it, which could not be violated without causing difficulties. When abstract and arbitrary rules were imposed from the outside, struggle was inevitable. Only then did life become sour.
To Lao-tse, the world was not a setter of traps but a teacher of valuable lessons. Its lessons needed to be learned, just as its laws needed to be followed; then all would go well. Rather than turn away from "the world of dust," Lao-tse advised others to "join the dust of the world." What he saw operating behind everything in heaven and earth he called Tao (DAO), "the Way."
Thanks for sharing ND. While I find you to be one of the more erudite people that I have ever known, I also must pay you what I believe to be the higher complement that it has not cluttered your way.
You have spoken of Black Elk before, and I intend to explore that further.
I had a couple of short dances with the Unitarians myself. Nice folk, but I am just not a joiner. I find groups of six, or fewer to be my comfort zone.
Liked your comment about the Carpenter guy. When I became disabused of the Bible, there he still stood shining, and alone.
I have heard the same postulation ND, and it seems credible. In fact it is easy for me to believe it true.
ND in answer to your question, Taoism, it helps to keep me sane, and to avoid screwing up.
Funniest thing, I also have my Buddhistic moments. I think the flip flop is due to chemical changes in my brain, but what do I know.;)
By the way rr3 that was no slam at you. I believe you are as jaded as the rest of us regarding the endless little game we have played on this blog. Of course it has to be endless, it is circular. Right? ;)
One other thought on Taoism. I think when I was very young, open and uncomplicated, like Winnie The Pooh you see, I stumbled on to Taoism in a vague way, though I didn't know it, and certainly didn't call it that, heck, I didn't even know the word.
I called it "Let It Slide". ;)
You are right okr it is circular when there is only one truth. That's what I believe but hey you and Nana carry on and I will read for a while. Interesting so far.
Thank you RT for an honest answer.
"New and Improved!"
I hope that works for you wtf then ok. I'm not sure where you can observe evolution but ok. Can I expect your response on a stone tablet or will you be using a computer? Does it matter.
Fortunately you have a computer instead of a stone tablet, maybe for a little while you should close your bible and open your mind.. It's out there. Here is one tiny example there are many many more.
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