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Friday, July 11, 2014

Speak Out [religion] May 1 to June 1, 2011

Sunday, May 1, 2011

This forum is for discussing religious issues. The same standards of behavior apply as are spelled out on our home page in the introduction to Speak Out.

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Is this blog officially dead? Where is the June 1 to July 1 thread?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Jun 11, 2011, at 2:06 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
http://www.marshallnews.com/story/173238...

I think this quote summarizes the New Testament fairly well :-) Is there any part of this that has missed the point?

"The belief that a walking dead Jewish deity who was his own father although he always existed, commits suicide by cop, although he didn't really die, in order to give himself permission not to send you to an eternal place of torture that he created for you, but instead to make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood, and telepathically promise him you accept him as your master, so he can cleanse you of an evil force that is present in mankind because a rib-woman and a mud-man were convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree." -- Anon

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, Jun 2, 2011, at 4:26 AM

Now that's funny wtf!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 6:17 AM

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).

Acting Christian will not get the reward.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 6:01 AM

rr3yvo,

I havn't denied god, I've denied you.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 6:01 AM

Now wtf surely you can do better than say I am on a tantrum, caplock stuck, or I need to clean my keyboard. What does that have to do with religion? What did you bring a knife to a gun fight?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 5:56 AM

Nana it is too bad if you think it is unfair, how will that work on judgement day when you tell God that it was just so unfair boo hoo. I know you can do better than that.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 5:53 AM

Maybe not wtf but you have denied him.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 1, 2011, at 5:50 AM

rr3yvo,

Nice tanturm. Is your "caplock" stuck? Maybe it's time to clean your keyboard. For the record I have never said there was no God.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 10:14 PM

Romans 1:20-26

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

Yeh wtf I have definitely got it. Thanks.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 9:33 PM

What am I getting wtf????????????????

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 9:15 PM

"THERE ARE APP. 10,285 PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE AND EVERY ONE UP TO THIS TIME HAS COME TRUE WITHOUT ONE SINGLE EXCEPTION?" THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD-Ps 14:1.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 9:12 PM

Absurd is right. I think you may finally be getting it. Absurd.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 8:53 PM

What should I use wft this is a religion forum? What make my case for Christianity and not use the bible? How absurd is that?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 8:48 PM

rr3yvo,

More scripture? Again, that proves absolutely nothing..............

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 7:57 PM

Good examples are those of which we have had recent discussion rr3.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 4:50 PM

After thinking about that okr I guess that did give me pause. I paused to wonder how anyone could make such a statement.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 3:22 PM

Everybody is wtf.

Romans 3:9--10 (NASB95)

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,

"There is none righteous, not even one;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 (NASB95)

3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;

There is no one who does good, not even one.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 3:02 PM

rr3yvo,

How do you know I'm a sinner?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 2:48 PM

Why Does This Site Quote So Many Bible Verses? I Don't Believe the Bible Anyway

"The vast number of skeptics discredit Christianity on the basis of ignorance and misinformation."

"Most skeptics have a very poor understanding of fundamental biblical theology."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 2:29 PM

Well lets back it up okr give examples please.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 2:27 PM

Not only are Jesus' teachings radically different from other religions rr3. They are also radically different from a large portion of the messages of the old testament. Does that ever give you pause?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 2:09 PM

Wtf I really appreciate you concern but to just make a statement like that means you haven't done your homework. You are right that we don't know when the end time will come the bible tells us that (so we agree on one thing). I am just a sinner like you but I have been saved by God's grace. As for getting over it I'm not the one that is worried about it.

Nothing Unique About the Teachings of Jesus Christ?

"Jesus' message is radically different from that of every other religion."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 1:27 PM

rr3yvo,

I do not know, and will readily admit that I no more know that it's not actually the end times any more than you know that it is. Biblical quotes prove nothing. They never have and never will. Get over it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 12:41 PM

There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist?

"The purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It's an amazing simple logical principle."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 11:46 AM

How do you know it is not the end times wtf? We don't even know how long we will live, how do we know how long the earth will last?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 31, 2011, at 6:11 AM

rr3yvo,

It's no surprise that the bible would call people turning from thier faith the last days. It's yet another biblical scare tactic because as society evolves and wakes up to the absolute monumental BS that is the bible, then the church starts to lose power. Once they start to lose power then they start to lose money. That's a bad deal all around for organized religion.

The folks that wrote the bible weren't completely stupid in as they allowed for that eventuality.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 11:18 PM

1 Timothy 4:1-2

People Will Turn from Their Faith

1God's Spirit clearly says that in the last days many people will turn from their faith. They will be fooled by evil spirits and by teachings that come from demons. 2They will also be fooled by the false claims of liars whose consciences have lost all feeling.

RT it boils down that you are rejecting God and you don't like the fact that God is sovereign.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 9:19 PM

The thought occurs to me that Devolutionists, having exhausted all other attempts to evidence their supposition, are themselves the only visible support for their credo.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 7:57 PM

I think the question is not regarding the size of one atrocity over another, it is how could the scripture appear to condone the punishment for any one single innocent victim. It was not an accicent; it was fullfilling promises to their god, not unlike sacrifice. You cannot make excuses for these actions? Those actions are wrong as well as many other actions condoning slavery and murder throughout the bible. The answer is that the bible is written by men not much more advanced than tribal man we see in jungles around the world today. The answer is that those who profess that the bible (or quaran,or any other holy book) is really something you must become an appologist for if you want to try to follow its teachings.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 7:24 AM

Just as absurd as your question okr you want to question God about one girl in the bible but there has been about 50 million innocents killed in the last 35+ years but that is all politically correct I guess. Tell me which is absurd? Just goes to show Satan is alive and well.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 6:38 AM

rr3 your answer to me was "tell you what okr take your hand put it in front of your face turn your head and then smack the side of your face with it. Did that help?" That seemed an (at best) absurd response to a valid question so I chose not to follow your advise.

I'll ask my question again to see if you have a better answer.

But rr3 why was the innocent daughter made to suffer? Was God complicit in her abuse? Why would God punish an innocent just to make someone else suffer? I don't understand. Honestly it seems sick, and perverted.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 3:12 AM

Seems straight forward, he killed his daughter because he promised God he would, if God gave him what he wanted. She was an innocent, God held him to his bargain, forcing him to murder his daughter, God could have stopped it, didn't. It matters not that she told her dad o. k. kill me to honor your word, that is just more proof of her purity. It is sick, and smacks more of a pact with a Devil than an honorable God. Cite: "And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed" So I ask again for a direct answer to my question. Do you really have one rr3?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 30, 2011, at 2:59 AM

Slavery in the bible was not near as bad as the slavery we had in this country. In the bible some went into slavery voluntarily others slaves could own their own slaves and conduct business. I'm sure there were some treated poorly but we have that today. So RT and Okr if you want to own slaves then there are the instructions.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 11:52 PM

RT quoting without understanding is dangerous!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 11:46 PM

Okr what kind of abuse the bible is not real explicit except she left for 2 weeks and then was a burnt offering. She also understood why it was happening. Tell you what okr take your hand put it in front of your face turn your head and then smack the side of your face with it. Did that help?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 11:44 PM

Slavery exists in the bible because of sin. Does God prefer it? No just as he doesn't prefer divorce, murder, stealing, etc. need I go on. God knew slavery would exist that is why there are instructions on how to treat them. What I don't understand if you don't believe in God why worry about what the bible says. Say you don't believe in God and stand on it you know end of story. Or you really just don't like what God is capable of doing and for God to be God and there is nothing you can do about it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 11:39 PM

More homework please!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 11:31 PM

OK, rr3, let me know if I am interpreting the bible condoning slavery (of even one's daughter) in Exodus 21 1 to 11 (King James version):

"

2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

Admittitedly, rr3, I haven't done any home work again, just quoting the KJ literal translation. Is this not condoning slavery?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, May 29, 2011, at 1:05 PM

But rr3 why was the innocent daughter made to suffer? Was God complicit in her abuse? Why would God punish an innocent just to make someone else suffer? I don't understand. Honestly it seems sick, and perverted.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 28, 2011, at 10:39 PM

First RT in Judges 10:6-16 we see the demise of Israel because they are serving seven God's. These are God's of nations that God's people had conquered. After 45 years of peace and this is how they respond! Then we see Israel sold into slavery and are crushed for 18 years. Then Israel repents and God delivers them, then sin, then repent, etc. Then Jephthat enters the picture as the son of a harlot, he had other brothers and when they grow up they run him off and deny him any inheritance because he has a different mother. He turns out to be the most gifted in the family, funny how God uses weak and foolish people to shame the wise and the strong. Israel asks him to lead them into war so he uses his influence to be promised a leadership role after he destroys the Ammonites. God is with Jephthat but he is lacking faith for 1)he uses his power of persuasion to assure himself a leadership role 2)he seeks to manipulate God with a rash vow or promise. Jephthat has the victory which would have been his anyway but he didn't think that his simple faith was sufficient. He made a promise without considering the consequences and at that time a person kept their promise no matter what. Call it what you want but his rejection of God had consequences and we see that throughout the bible. Faith will reap great rewards but if we error than we are sure to suffer a consequence. People reject God because they don't like his discipline but they will still suffer the consequence like it or not. Our kids if we discipline them they don't like it, so do we have that mind set when God disciplines us? I hope not I hope we can be adults and say God I didn't like that but I deserved it. Most people when they interpret the bible don't follow any sensible or consistent method. So it leads to inaccurate, inconsistent, illogical and naive interpretations. By examining the nature of the Bible, the events it records and how it was written, it is possible to come up with a method of interpretation that is sensible and understandable. So RT please do your homework before attempting interpretation.

You may want to read the following paper. It will explain how the sin of Adam started the fall of man and why we have consequences. Thanks RT.

The Consequences of the Fall and the Depravity of Man According to the Letter to the Romans

http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 28, 2011, at 7:38 PM

Get your last May posts in before this thread becomes obsolete and June starts :-)

rr3, please let me know how I might be taking the bible out of context? How do you interpret Judges 29-40? "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." And his daughter came out "and he did as he had vowed". Would you call that child abuse, murder, or what? I'd really enjoy your interpretation of that Judges 29-40?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, May 28, 2011, at 3:57 PM

"One tin soldier rides away....."

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 11:45 PM

rr3yvo,

No. I don't believe that a god caused the tornado's, the deaths and spared the survivors.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 1:35 PM

RT are you taking the bible out of context to rationalize your disbelief? Or do you really believe it? Would anything I say convince you to change your mind?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 11:25 AM

So wtf do you believe God caused the tornado and the deaths?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 11:22 AM

So okr you say the exercise of reason provides the primary basis for knowledge. Now come on is that your rational side or your irrational side speaking? Is that reasonable? or unreasonable?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 11:21 AM

rr3: Who is a rationalist is not as you say, a matter of perspective. It is a matter of definition. Such as; 1.Reliance on reason as the best guide for belief and action.

2.Philosophy. The theory that the exercise of reason, rather than experience, authority, or spiritual revelation, provides the primary basis for knowledge.

I embrace that definition. Do you?

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/rationalism...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 10:30 AM

Okr what is a rationalist you? me? It's all a matter of perspective.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 6:58 AM

Here is something that perplexes me. In the wake of the tornado outbreak, alot of folks are saying "God was looking out for me" etc. etc.

Is this to mean that God made a conscious effort to save someone while making another conscious effort to kill someone else?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, May 27, 2011, at 6:12 AM

Here are some bible quotes that prove it was written by men and for men:

The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Are these the word of god? What say ye?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 8:58 PM

Rr3: "This is for those that the liberals want you to think is such a beautiful and peaceful religion. NOT!"

Whoa, Nellie... I am a liberal and I can assure you that most liberals don't believe Islam is beautiful or peaceful. It is the worst of all the major religions for atrocities, especially to women. That religion is an example of what can happen with any religion that can take complete control of a state, like Iran. On the Christian side, having a leader who might happen to believe that the rapture is inevitable in their life time would probably mean making decisions for the short term. And that's just having the leader being delusional, let alone having an entire state run by delusional people.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 8:40 PM

Rr3: "Why do our bodies wear out and we die? If we always evolved to something better wouldn't we live longer and longer naturally?"

My limited knowledge of evolution probably doesn't answer this correctly, but it is my understanding that evolution concerns itself with survival related to propagation in order to improve the gene pool of any one species. Longevity is not a primary factor in evolution, other than living long enough to propagate. There are competing species that evolve to improve their ability to procreate as well, and one species doesn't always evolve fast enough to outdo a competitor. I welcome someone with more knowledge on evolution to correct and/or clarify my attempt to explain this?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 8:30 PM

MORE EXTREMISTS BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE MUSLIMS.

Why rr3 is the Muslim religion the only one you define by their extremists? It seems irrational to me, but then, to your credit you have never defined yourself as a rationalist.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 5:08 PM

"So, you think the Ku Klux Klan

and the Spanish Inquisition are bad?

So do we, but...

Put the Numbers in Perspective

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years."

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who

are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,

and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty"

Qur'an, Sura 9:123

Christian Couple Stabbed in Home for Leaving Islam...

http://www.bosnewslife.com/16960-sudan-c...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 12:00 PM

So news tell me about this new religion called "New Atheism" are they going to be the new beatiful and peaceful religion? What do they believe or maybe I should say what they don't believe? Don't just make a generic comment like okr and not be able to back it up. You would have a hayday if I made such a statement.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM

rr3yv0

We rationalists have been saying that for a long time mate. All major religions have some pretty nasty track records when it comes to respecting human rights.

Islam, Judeaism, Hinduism, Christianity, all have firmly rooted in their unsupported beliefs violent, totalitarian concepts, and a historical record of forcing their beliefs on others -- often times at the point of a gun.

Fortunately, rationalism (new atheism) is the fastest growing minority in the USA and Europe...so there may be hope for mankind yet lol.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 2:00 AM

A hint rr3, to help you grasp my point. No, I am not trying to make you "think Islam is that beautiful, and peaceful religion". Another hint, as to my comment regarding "thousands have been molested", documentation has no bearing on my point.

Why not go back, and re-read my comment? With these hints I bet you will get it. If not perhaps someone will intercede for your benefit.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 26, 2011, at 12:16 AM

It appears you missed my point entirely rr3. You can ask someone else to explain it. I think it was clear enough to most.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 11:49 PM

See you are wanting me to think that Islam is that beautiful and peaceful religion don't you? Do your homework.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 9:04 PM

Okr you say thousands have been molested. Are these all documented or did you just pull that out of thin air?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 9:03 PM

That's your decision to make okr, I have already made mine.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 9:01 PM

My journey toward Christian awareness.

In this decade thousands of children have been molested by Priests, and Ministers.

This is for those that the conservatives want you to think is such a beautiful, and peaceful religion. Not!

Of course my statement is ridiculous. It just jumps out at you that a minority of Christian perverts should not shape one's opinion of all Christians.

Probably the same applies to the Muslim religion don't you think rr3?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM

My Journey Toward Islamoawareness

http://bigpeace.com/lmeyers/2011/05/21/m...

"Over 17,000 terror attacks SINCE 9/11 (as of 5/18/11). Read that again; over 17,000 attacks in 10 years. That's nearly 5 attacks a day!"

This is for those that the liberals want you to think is such a beautiful and peaceful religion. NOT!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 25, 2011, at 1:44 PM

Nana proof in in the eye of the beholder. So who is shoving their proof off on you? Maybe it is just that you disagree and don't like it?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 12:40 PM

News would you agree though that the odds of you waking up in the morning grow less with each waking day? I mean unless you live longer from this point on then you have lived already. Why do our bodies wear out and we die? If we always evolved to something better wouldn't we live longer and longer naturally? Less birth and genetic defects if we were getting better and better? What is our life worth if all we do is live and die and there is nothing else? What is our purpose and how do we know what that purpose is? Just in our lifetime do we see life getting better? I do agree that the earth as we know it will end but we do not know the day or the hour, instead of living in fear of when it will happen let's live each day that it could happen tomorrow. What would you do today if today was the last day of your life?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 12:08 PM

rr3yv0

Determining what one can likely expect from reasonable probabilities would exclude accepting such a crazy idea as a sky-daddy.

I can reasonably expect to awaken in the morning. I might not awaken, but my good health and the fact that I have been waking up for 50 some odd years means the probability I will awaken is very high.

The idea of an invisible sky-daddy who hears every person's thoughts every second of every day, guides each of those people, and who keeps a list of who's been naughty and who's been nice from his throne in a cloud is not only very improbable, but in fact, its just pure fantasy.

I think the difference between reasonable expectation and wild fantacy is quite apparent.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 11:13 AM

Proof, I want proof

http://carm.org/proof-i-want-proof

"If that is how you want it, then why don't you see if you live that way. See if you are consistent in what you require proof for and what you just except by faith. And then see if you are being consistent in what you require as proof about who Christ is."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 11:00 AM

If there was a proof that truly did prove God's existence, would the atheist be able to accept it, given that his presuppositions are in opposition to the existence of God?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 10:45 AM

cat in the hat.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 9:32 AM

There is at least one more problem with your hypothesis News. Science may simply be a method and have no political or religious views, but scientists are human and do tend to have outside influences that can sway their work. Look again at Nanadots post of thinks we have known for some good examples.

-- Posted by Philemon on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 7:26 AM

Proven again Nana thanks.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 6:40 AM

NanDot,

First off, I certainly never intended to offend you nor do I see anything yet in my comment that should offend you.

Never-the-less, I offer you my deepest appologies if anything I said offended you in any way.

Secondly, the things you describe as the "limitations" of science -- observation for example, are in fact the meat of science. That is a necessary requirement of the scientific method. Its an advantage of the scientific method -- not a limitation.

And as you know, there are many ways to test hypothesis and theories. We can, for example, make predictions based upon a theory then observe test results.

There are also ways of observing things that may not be observable with the human eye or even with the strongest telescope or microscope. One example of this is how we discovered that the Universe is in an accelerating expansion (the only thing faster than the speed of light). Since it would be impossible to physically observe the expansion because that would require seeing the Universe from a point outside the Universe, we instead discovered and measured it via an astronomical phenomena known as "red shift." We were able to calculate the rate of expansion using the process of "red shift" measurement -- an indirect but completely accurate measurement.

Another example would be how we determined the presence of dark matter -- matter that does not reflect light and allows light to pass through it. It cannot be seen under any circumstances. So instead of observing the dark matter directly, a process that can detect matter via its gravitational effect upon other matter around it -- gravitational telescopy -- was used and we are able to "see" the dark matter which is measured using something other than the electromagnetic frequency range we call visable light -- or any electromagnetic frequency for that matter. Thus while we cannot see it, we can certainly measure it and if we can measure it, we can test it.

New ways of measurement are also discoveries of science. One hypothisis of physics that is cutting edge is Parallel Universe Theory -- also called M theory. So far most of the evidence is supporting M-theory is mathmatical. The math works. That is a good indicator but in no way does it prove anything except that M theory is theoretically possible. Some physists who reject the hypothisis do so because it has no observable evidence to support it -- and rightly so -- skepticism too is a crucial part of the scientific method of discovery. They also point out that in their opinion, we will never be able to observe direct evidence because we cannot leave the spacetime plane of our Universe. However, Super-Gravity theory does have strong, tested, peer reviewed evidence that gravitons are able to leave the spacetime plane of spacetime and pass through to some other place which would have to be a high gravity universe. Right now in Super-Gravity theory they are working hard to discover a way to manipulate gravitons mathmatically. If we can learn to do that then we can begin to observe --through measurment -- testing of M theory in the future.

The observations through measurement may in fact close the door on M theory -- or provide supporting evidence -- but either way, observing through indirect measurment is a proven substitute for direct observation creating new opportunities for testing and expanding our frontiers of discovery.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 1:53 AM

Your question wasn't addressed to me rr3, but as we are all free to jump in anywhere...splash.

You said "Do you write off anything unexplainable as well, unexplainable?"

Yes. If it is unexplainable that means there is no explanation. End of trail.

I think what we really must do is strive to know the difference between what is unexplainable, and what is not yet explained. It narrows the scope of one's pondering to allow more efficient thought. Eventually this approach leads us to the point that we are contemplating nothing. That is the beginning. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 1:20 AM

It seems to me that eastern civilization has done a good job of absorbing what is unique to western civilization. On the other hand western civilization has arrogantly ignored what is unique to eastern civilization. This, I think, at our peril.

China's ascendancy is about to change all that.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 24, 2011, at 12:40 AM

Nana you just proved that everything is here because of design. That's why science can't replicate it. Do you just write off anything unexplainable as well, unexplainable?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 9:59 PM

rr3yv0

Science is a method -- test hypothesis, observer the results, isolate the variables.

It has no political concerns or desires.

It has no religious concerns or desires.

It is simply an objective, provable, repeatable, verifiable method of discovery -- nothing more and nothing less.

Alos, Nan, what limitations are there to this method?

Could you be a bit more detailed please.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 5:19 PM

God did News!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 12:30 PM

I, too, detest the cold=blooded manipulation of science to control power and money, and the leftwing war on this country to turn it into climate change oligarchy...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 12:26 PM

RT religion does require certainty. If you believe in something not certain then why believe? I am certain of my salvation and my eternal home in heaven.

John 14:2 (NASB95)

2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 6:59 AM

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 John 3:4 (NASB95)

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 6:22 AM

We need to pray for all people that are affected by these devastating storms. This hitting in Missouri. Unbelievable what weather can do.

http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/2011...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 5:31 AM

"Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone," Col. 4:5-6(NIV)

Where did God come from?

The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2).

"God created matter. He created the universe."

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 5:22 AM

NanaDot: "The sense of the mystical and wondrous is enough. It is all sacred space. Science does not preclude wonder and religion does not require certainty. There is plenty of room."

Yes, we all have a sense of the wondrous and mystery of the universe. But the dualism you think there is plenty of room for is a big problem. It wouldn't be if the rightwing religious people would keep their personal mystery feelings out of government and public schools. They want to teach creationism and push their own brand of irrational belief into our government. They want to knock on my door and tell me I'm a sinner when they don't even know me. This is what is causing the big backlash from rational people and the push against the tolerance for dualism.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, May 23, 2011, at 4:47 AM

NanaDot

As I said, science does not have all the answers...yet.

Science is an objective method of finding truth. Its that simple.

Science has no motives other than objectively seeking truth.

Science has no political opinions.

Science has no religious opinions.

Science is an objective, rigorous, step-by-step method of isolating the manure and leaving the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.

As regards the topics you mentioned and your neighbor, I recommend you stop using him as a source for answers or information lol.

I recommend you go to fully qualified scientific journals, university accredited science websites, university lectures on you tube (such as those I posted in my previous comment), ect and learn what real science has to say on these topics. Learn what the physical and mathmatical evidence is and how it was determined and isolated.

But do so with a keenly skeptical eye. Without people asking why, we would probably rarely ever bother looking for answers.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 22, 2011, at 7:24 PM

At this link is an interesting quiz regarding the Bible provided by conservative columnist Nicholas Kristoff. Of interest to all persuasions in my opinion. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/opinio...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 22, 2011, at 1:23 PM

"Even if you don't believe in God don't you wonder where all this something came from. Shouldn't there be a first cause?" RR3

The difference is that anything I cannot understand I just don't automatically believe there is some magical sky daddy that "did it". That is what tribal mad did before we came out of the dark ages. Unfortunately, there are still way too may humans who still use that illogical explanation for everything they cannot understand. If all humans thought that way, we would not have made much progress over the last few centuries in science and technology.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, May 22, 2011, at 6:46 AM

rr3yv0

When and how was your God created, made, invented, conceived, ect? What caused the cause?

As you say there had to be a first cause...what caused the effect that became the next cause? where did your God come from? Who or what created your God?

Actually we do want to know these things mate. That is why we use the scientific method to get the answers. Its the only objective and sure way to learn truth.

You may want to look at a few advances in physics and especially in quantum physics for the answers. There have been dramatic breakthroughs in the theoretical science (the math) and supporting evidence from observation regarding the nature and beginning of our Universe -- particularly as regards the possible cause of Big Bang (String theory + Super-Gravity theory). Also you may want to look at "Universal Inflation." The emphasis now in science is to learn the cause of Big Bang and what forces exist outside our Universe, if such forces exist at all. I am sure once we learn those things, we will begin to look for the cause of those forces also. In fact, it may turn out to be a search for truth that will still not be fully answered when we finally go extinct. But in the meantime, science keeps providing a more and more specific understanding of the physical reality.

You may want to consider this mate. Nothingness -- which for the sake of argument I will define as the complete absense of matter -- is highly unstable and cannot maintain a state of nothingness for long. Something -- particles -- come into existance and then pop out of existance continually ( IE: see Higgs Boson and Hawking Radiation, below).

If you are interested in learning some answers to your questions, you may want to watch the following videos.

"The Standard Model Explains Force And Matter"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5QXZ0__8...

" CERN: The Standard Model Of Particle Physics"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0KjXsGRv...

"The God Particle': The Higgs Boson"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_HrQVhgb...

"Large Hadron Collider - The Search For The Higgs [1 of 3]"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fJ6PMfnz...

"Hawking radiation"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6srN4idq...

"Quantum Mechanics: The Uncertainty Principle"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw6dI7cgu...

"Quantum Mechanics The Uncertainty Principle Light Particle's"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT7xJ0tjB...

"Einstein's Theory Of Relativity Made Easy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30KfPtHec...

"Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity E=mc2 speed of light"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ6N85lNg...

"Einstein's General Theory of Relativity" | Lecture 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbmf0bB38...

Cutting edge Theoretical Physics.

The following are the cutting edge hypothesis.

There have been incredible mathmatical breakthroughs that support these hypothesis however, far more observationable evidence would be required before any peer review could be considered. Never-the-less, there is strong mathmatical evidence to support the hypothesis -- in short, the math works. As more and more evidence is discovered we will learn more about these hypothesis, but for now the math indicates these hypotheis may be pointing us in the right direction.

"The Elegant Universe (String theory)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkkeCWCM9...

"Parallel Universes" [1/5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SDrj4Tj...

"Lecture 1 | String Theory and M-Theory"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25haxRuZQ...

Science does not know all the answers mate, but science is a proven method of discovering truth.

Give it a shot!

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 21, 2011, at 7:51 PM

Even if you don't believe in God don't you wonder where all this something came from. Shouldn't there be a first cause? Is there an oldest rock in the universe? If so how did it come to be? It is irrational to think as ordered as our earth has to be to sustain life that it just happened by chance. There is a certain balance to sustain life and if the scales tip the slightest bit either direction life would not be sustainable.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 21, 2011, at 1:09 PM

I understand the big bang theory, but there is no way (for me) to fathom how nothing could have existed and then BANG, everything exploded from something so dense (or nothing?) that it made all matter that exists in all the billions of galaxies now. But, just because I can't really fathom that theory, doesn't mean anyone gets to explain it away as "God did it". As Fulltimer explained, that makes no sense whatsoever. And even if you believed there was a deity of any kind pulling the strings in the background (of nothing I suppose :-), doesn't mean that some deity is somehow hovering around us watching us commit sins and answering prayers and manipulating the tides. No, that is voodoo witchdoctor mentality. Let's all be in awe of the universe, and understand that science is what really makes us appreciate how small we really are and how wonderfully lucky each of us have been to hit the grand lotto of existence. There was no God that did this, and those of us who don't believe in deities appreciate the universe and our existence every bit as much as those who do, and probably even more.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, May 21, 2011, at 12:35 PM

"Although I was once sharply critical of the argument to design, I have since come to see that, when correctly formatted, this argument constitutes a persuasive case for the existence of God."

"I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence. I believe that this universe's intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science."

- Antony Flew

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 21, 2011, at 12:35 AM

Ok news since you want to have this foofaraw about Jesus chromosomes. Let's have verifiable, provable evidence of the Big Bang! Not theory.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 10:17 AM

I got the following in an email from my pastor this morning:

"The news is carrying a story about a man who claims that the world will end on May 21st (Saturday). He claims that his prediction is based on careful calculations based on the Bible. I think that this is a good time to remind you of Jesus' words in Matthew 24:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, or the Son, but only the Father." (36)

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know on what day our Lord will come" (42)

In short....predictions like the one on the news are pretty much ridiculous. Living a life like He'll never come is also ridiculous. We should be prepared...but not scared.

Have a great weekend."

I believe that explains most Christian's sentiments on the subject much better than the sarcastic nonsense I've been reading here.

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 8:42 AM

We should not forget the offshoots of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) who marry off their child daughters to old men, now, here in this country.

Their interpretation of the bible of course condones it.

That is one of the reasons why it amazes me that ANY ONE can be so vainly cocksure they are right, after seeing themselves, the many ways that even they believe is misinterpretation. How can they so grandly proclaim that they know what is right, and not erroneous? Why are they certain that they are right, to the point of compulsively carrying their message to all others? Then, being dismayed, sorrowful, or pitying concerning those who do not think the same as they.

Do they never think what if I am wrong, and what have I done to my fellow humans if my compulsion to proclaim is wrong? Such certainty is playing at being a god, for only a god can be free of doubt. Never can a rational human be doubt free.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 5:40 AM

Anyway, I am already for the big rupture...I mean rapture...anytime now.

My wife tells me its supposed to happen at 6 -- whenever its 6 pm in the area you live or are at when the blessed rapture starts jerking naked folks into the clouds. I guess there will be a space ship waiting. The Christianists aren't real clear on that part. Anyway, it will be a long trip either way.

That means we here in Australia will be ruptured...I mean raptured...before you folks in America since we are far ahead of you time-wise.

Don't worry, I won't be going to the rapture. I am staying put right here on Earth where its warm and comfortable. So I will be able to give you minute by minute coverage of this blessed event as it unfolds in Australia. If any of you commenters are not around on May 22, well...we know what happened.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 12:22 AM

Oh and the Christianists will point out that Mohammud also had a wife who was 9 years old (actually he raised her as more of an adopted daughter and there is no reason in the evidence to believe it was in any way an adult relationship).

These same Christianists hammer Muslums for this...lol...doing the same things the folks they worship were doing..

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 12:14 AM

fulltimer.

Join the crowd on having something deleted after you have put a lot of work into it.

Eric has a fast delete finger.

Now you are truly one of us mate...lol...we have all been there at least a few hundred times...each...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 12:09 AM

The odd sentence in my previous comment should read as follows:

Just because those idiotst..."thought they were doing God's will"...

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 12:07 AM

NanaDot

Yeah Nan...that makes it right...just call it cultural thing.

Children of the age of 13 then and now are not grown ups. Just because those idiots who thought the World was flat and that Gods lived in the clouds does not mean they knew what they were doing when they allowed their daughters to be molested by adult men...clearly adult...well into adulthood...often times old men.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 20, 2011, at 12:04 AM

Hey guys, this rapture thing that is going to happen on the 21st...does anyone know if that is Central Standard/daylight sav. time or maybe Eastern Standard/Daylight sav. time?

We are getting ready for it and we want to make sure we have the popcorn freshly popped and buttered just before the blessed event.

So I reckon I will adjust my watch accordingly when I get this time thing straightened out.

I don't want to miss this one!

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 9:19 PM

rr3yv0

No neither one of you have offered a rational explanaition to the daddy problem at all.

Other than phils apparent claim that Jesus was some animal other than a homo sapian sapian...which frankly is not a very good explanation. It has a lot to do with that "funny they don't mention that Jesus was a Chimpanse in the Bible" problem. Being a different species is one of those things that are real noticable in a whole bunch of different ways all at once.

That dog won't hunt.

However, if you fellas could show us just one example of a homo sapian sapian having more or less than 46 chromosomes...then you might be getting somewhere.

I am betting you can't.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 5:59 PM

I understand that the rapture is upon us.

I guess that means some of you boys won't be around here much longer. By the way...are they going to be rising up into a cloud? Is that where heaven is? Up there in the clouds?

The only reason I ask is that...well...the Universe is a very big place. In fact, its roughly 15 billion light years across. Presuming heaven lies outside of the Universe (because we know that in the Universe the physical laws of the Universe rule supreme) and getting out of the Universe presents some real practicle mechanical problems...especially for a naked human body that is "rising" through the Universe.

Anyway, besides all the usual problems (direct, unfiltered radiation, absolute 0 temperatures, lack of oxygen, ect, there is a speed problem.

As it turns out, rising even very quickly -- even as fast as our shuttles -- is not anywhere near the speed of light. But for the sake of argument, I will assume the rapturers will be traveling at or near the speed of light. Ok, back to the problem which is 3 problems.

Problem 1.) Traveling near or at the speed of light, it would take you 15 billion years to cross the expanse of the Universe. That is a very long time and most of us here will have long forgotten you, your God, and your rapture by the time you get to the edge of the universe. Not that our remembering you matters lol. Anyway get ready for a very long and very uncomfortable trip...and for goodness sake..AVOID GIANT NEUTRON STARS AND BLACK HOLES!!!

Problem 2.) The plane of space. This is a big problem. We know from Einstein's Theory of Relativity that because of the unique characteristics of time and space, just when you think you are reaching the edge of the Universe, you will find yourself right back at Earth.

Problem 3.) The rate of expansion of the Universe is greater than the speed of light. I know, I know, your physics professor told you that nothing is faster than the speed of light. However, he or she should have mentioned the dark energy problem and the expansion of the Universe -- which we now know is expanding at a speed greater than the speed of light. That means that you will never reach your objective. While you are travelling along at light speed for 15 billion years, the Universe has been expanding at a greater rate for those 15 billion years and you now have more than 15 billion more years to go...and so on and so forth.

Yeah this should be interesting.

My lovely wife and I have our comfy chairs ready, our TV is warmed up and ready to tune into the big rapture news, and we have a 3 day supply of popcorn.

This is going to be fun!!

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 5:50 PM

Phil I thought we already explained this didn't we? Just like Jesus said that man would see the evidence but would harden his heart and refuse to believe. Sad but true.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 5:49 PM

Philemon

I stated facts. Jesus was a human being...one of us. You may think he is also God, but you can not expect any reasonable mind to accept that Jesus was not also a human being.

We know a lot about human beings. We know they all have 46 chromosomes. We know each parent contributes 23 chromosomes to the offspring's gentic make up. Those are facts mate.

Now, either 'splain how your God is the father of that human being...cause his daddy contributed 23 chromosomes and that is a fact and if he contributed 23 chromosomes then he too is human.

Staying away from the emotional response this time, please explain where science is wrong in the facts mentioned above and please provide an example of a homo sapian sapian having more or less than 46 chromosomes.

I am betting you can't.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 5:24 PM

U.S. Imams Plot to Murder & Maim

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/j...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 2:04 PM

Fulltimer it is interesting you mention that we have matured as a species. We have been killing babies legally for the last 30+ years and with government health care we can determine whether a person is worth the care to keep them alive or not. Is that maturity? Is that man playing God? I agree with Phil you want to twist the facts in the bible to suit your needs and then dismiss other parts of it. Very inconsistent. I do agree with News though I missed you. I also miss Rational Thinker you guys strengthen my faith by keeping me in God's word. Thanks and keep up the good work.

"Plenty of great teachers, mystics, martyrs and saints have made their appearance at different times in the world, and lived lives and spoken words full of grace and truth, for which we have every reason to be grateful. Of none of them, however, has the claim been made, and accepted, that they were Incarnate God. In the case of Jesus alone the belief has persisted that when he came into the world God deigned to take on the likeness of a man in order that thenceforth men might be encouraged to aspire after the likeness of God; reaching out from their mortality to His immortality, from their imperfection to His perfection."

- Malcolm Muggeridge

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 10:59 AM

News,

Now you really are disappointing me. You are supposedly all about science and evidence, but can't seem to stay consistent. Much like your doubts about Bin Laden's death, there is no body for us to check. In this case though, that's the good news. Meanwhile, you use the Bible ad your source information about Jesus' mother and Father, then reject it as a fairy tale when Adam and Eve are mentioned. Same source mate. Not a very scientific method to cherry pick a source.

-- Posted by Philemon on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 7:29 AM

"Atheists offer to rescue Christians' pets after judgment day"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/18/at...

Well isn't that what free enterprise is all about?

for you fellas that plan to be raptured soon, you may want to consider this service.

Personally, if dogs are not welcome in Heaven, I wouldn't want to go there.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 4:49 AM

Oh and fulltimer...

...nice to have you back buddy...lol.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 2:27 AM

fulltimer,

When you said,

"God used to be the answer when there were no answers."

you hit the nail right on the head.

In modern times we have scientific methodology to weed out falshood from truth. We are able to understand the World around us much better than were those folks of Jesus time.

In fact, those folks back then didn't know duddley squat about the World. They even thought the World was flat. They knew nothing of medicine worth mentioning, they knew nothing of mental illness, and unless they actually saw someone stuck with a sword or intentionally murdered, they had no idea why folks died. They believed in curses and magic charms. They knew far less about the World than any person alive in the World today save for a few toddlers and a few vegtables out there.

Back in the old days when folks new next to nothing, they used to attribute anything they couldn't understand to magic.

This is the 21st Century. We no longer rely on "magic" for answers. We have something real. We have science.

And have you noticed some folks hava a lot of difficulty explaining who contributed the other 23 chromosomes in Jesus' 46 chromosome make up that Jesus didn't get from his Mother? They would like to tell you its magic that did it...but they know alot of folks are a little bit to smart for that answer nowdays.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 19, 2011, at 2:25 AM

Adam and Eve?

Surely you jest.

Mate don't mix fairytales into an academic discussion 'cause that dog just won't hunt.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 10:18 PM

News you know the ones they train to detect counterfeit money don't spend any time looking at the counterfeit. They spend hours studying the real thing so when they see a counterfeit they can detect it immediately. I think we need to apply that to God's word and study the true word of God and know it well enough that we can immediately detect a false teaching or a counterfeit. We can never know it all because I know people that have been Christians and study God's word for 60 years or more and they still get something new out of it when they study. No other book is like that, God will reveal to you as an individual the understanding of his word. Then anything false or counterfeit will stand out as such.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 9:32 PM

Ok news where did Adam and Eve get their chromosomes? The bible tells us we are made in their image. God, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe any one of them could come to earth in human form does that mean they are human? I believe Jesus was placed in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit to be born on this earth to be the ultimate sacrifice. He didn't have chromosomes from Mary or Joseph they were from God. When Jesus appeared after he rose from the grave he still had human form but they didn't recognize him because his body was a glorified body. Did he have chromosomes then? I don't know and in the whole scheme of things news you are sweating the small stuff. Does that aspect of Jesus really matter? Is that the only thing keeping you from believing? I hope not.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 9:22 PM

BFG I don't think we can completely understand God's nature because he lives outside our realm of human understanding. I do believe we can understand certain aspects of it as described in the bible. You seem to attempt to make it appear that I claim to know everything about God but in the next sentence you state that a mere human can't know everything about God. I agree we don't know everything about God. We can't understand anything outside of the dimension we live in. We can't even understand eternal because the way we think everything has a beginning and an end. I also believe the New Testament was written after the old. I asked if you thought the New Testament was written because of someone reading the Old Testament? You really need to do your homework and get back with me.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 9:05 PM

"'Why Evolution Is True' by Jerry Coyne, AAI 2009"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1m4mATYo...

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 7:07 PM

Philemon

Well the Bible says he was man. It may also say he was a God. He never said that.

His mother was certainly human. Are you suggesting he was not a man as the Bible says he was?

If he was human he had 46 chromosomes. Period. Not 45, not 47, not 44, not 48...46 and 46 only. Oh and his 2nd chromosome pair were the fused 14th and 15th chromosome pairs of the chimpanze...fancy that! and your 2nd chromosones are also the fused 14th and 15th chromosome pairs of the chimpanzee...me too. lol. Those are facts too. They are biological facts. No need to test again...we have already done plenty of that lol lol lol.

Yes he was man and that means he had 46 chromosomes. Homo Sapien, Sapien (us) cannot have more or less chromosomes or iwe would be an entirely different creature which would not resemble a man any better than a chimanzee does -- our closest geneic relative (48 chromosomes). Trust me...lol...the Jews would have noticed something like that...as would the Romans lol.

There is no other option.

So where did he get the other 23 chromosomes? Or any chromsomes above the 23 he got from from his mother?

Who's the daddy?

If its God...then that means your God has 46 Chromosomes -- and that would make him human also.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 6:57 PM

RR3yvo,

to answer your questions that vexed me less than the other.

1. Yes I believe the new testament was written after the old. Ask any Jewish religious scholar about how the Christians attached a bunch of pages to a Heavily edited version of His religious book.

2. Who else was born of a virgin and rose from the dead? That story went around what is now called the middle east and north eastern Africa for a thousand years before Mary and Joe were ever born. A bunch Guys who never met him wrote a Book about a hero Martyr who died at the hands of a draconian Government and Jazzed up the story to fit the guy.

How exactly does the argument that a sequel was based on the original not hold water? Are you familiar with George Lucas?

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 2:41 PM

God Himself as described in the book is unknowable. Even his appearance would kill any mortal human instantly. but you claim to understand his nature?

The only appropriate stance on the subject that doesn't border on either hubris or flat out blasphemy is that of uncertainty and humility before a world/universe that is too large and complicated to ever be fully grasped by a mere Human.

Claiming to know not only makes the claimant look foolish but it discourages further research into the subject and in turn slows the progress of any new ideas or technology.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 2:26 PM

BFG you are grasping at straws here. You need to understand the nature of God. God can't sin because it is not in his nature. Is he capable? Maybe I can't say for sure but I think he would be. There are many things I am capable of doing but will never do because it is not part of my nature. There is no contradiction so try again.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 10:42 AM

"God can't lie it is not part of his nature."

"BFG I didn't say he wasn't capable it is not part of his nature."

yes you did. and you have now contridicted yourself. Concede the point and try again later.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 8:32 AM

News,

I know you claim to want actual evidence, but please, could you practice what you preach. What evidence do you have that Jesus had 46 chromosomes? Where is your verifiable DNA testing? We don't even have a body. I can agree from reading the Bible that he must have received 23 from his mother, but we can't even guess what he got from his father, God. You claim that if he didn't get 23 from his father, he would be a mole, or a worm, or some other creature but he would not have been a human being. I propose that he was something else, the Son of God, Deity, Saviour, and many other things that we cannot comprehend. Still a human being, but the perfect human being. Perhaps science hasn't yet discovered the chromosome makeup of perfection.

Someday, science will catch up. There will be the verifiable evidence you ask for. Unfortunately, it will be too late to do any good.

-- Posted by Philemon on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 8:20 AM

News I believe God made the universe from nothing, he made man from the dust and breathed the breath of life into him to make him human. Where did Adam and Eve get there chromosomes? I believe that they come from God just as I believe Jesus coming to earth in human form was a divine conception. Jesus was on this earth fully human and fully God. Do you have Jesus DNA to prove your point? If God made the first human's chromosome why couldn't he have made Jesus's? Did Jesus look like his parents? Too bad they didn't have video back then so the eyewitness that saw Jesus could show you proof. Why should God give us physical evidence, why should he save us from our sins? Because he loves us news and we have a hard time understanding that. How could he love someone that denies his existence? How could he love a criminal? The thief on the cross beside Jesus acknowledged who Jesus was and repented for his sins and Jesus said he would see him in paradise. I believe he went to heaven even though he had done wrong all his life. That's the Jesus I know news.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 6:42 AM

rr3yv0

Yes you pose good questions...questions that have answers from a secular perspective.

However, we cannot get away from certain facts regarding the Great Teacher, Jesus of Nazareth. Such facts as Jesus had 46 chromosomes. 23 he got from his Mother. 23 he got from his Daddy.

So what else can we deduce from this?

Well, it means Jesus was a human being and we know that since his parents each contribute half their chromosomes to the child...in this case Jesus...we can easily deduce that each of his parents each had 46 chromosomes making them both human.

So how do you balance those facts in your equation? How does that work with your belief?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 18, 2011, at 12:05 AM

News the bible was not written to explain the physical world but the spiritual one. When it does talk about the physical world though it is accurate. There are several things described in the bible which was written hundreds or thousands of years before they were proved by science. Doesn't science have to have something to prove something? Yet they can't explain where something come from I mean God said he made it from nothing. But you have to have faith and news you have faith just not in God. I proved to you that everything you believe is not backed by scientific evidence and peer review. Just like you believe you will wake up tomorrow but we don't know if it will happen but you will go to sleep having the faith that it will. If we weren't designed then why do we all have the same features such as eyes, nose, ears, etc.? I don't think it all happened by accident because science no matter how hard they try cannot create anything from nothing. It just doesn't work. I know you are passionate about what you believe the same as I am about by belief but don't let science and man blind you to what is around you.

Hebrews 11:3 (NASB)

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 9:53 PM

Also RR,

Jesus had 46 pairs of chromosomes. That is a fact. If he had any other number of chromosomes, he would have been a mole, or a worm, or some other creature but he would not have been a human being.

We know he got 23 chromosomes from his Mother.

Did God contribute 23 Chromosomes or not?

If he did, where did his chromosomes come from, and why does God need chromosomes?

If not...where did Jesus get his other 23 chromosomes?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 7:53 PM

rr3yv0

Can almighty God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

Looks to me like he has limitations.

It looks like he is bound to, and inferrior to the natural laws of the Universe.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 7:47 PM

Smokin' Cheetah

Sure scientists base their opinions on new evidence quite often and also often disagree on the old evidence.

Nothing new there.

However, as a result of all the evidence today which points towards a totally natural universe today -- which is far more evidence than we had 10 years ago (especially in the realm of quantum physics and particularly with regard to breakthroughs in Super-gravity theory) -- Dr. Hawking has expressed his personal and professional opinion on the existence of God. I am sure it won't be the last time either.

But one thing is for sure...the Christianists have zero repeatable, testable, observable, verifiable, scientifically derrived, peer reviewed evidence to support their hypothesis...not one piece of evidence.

That means its pretty much a fairy tale at this point.

Unless of course the Christianists have some new scientifically derrived evidence supporting their hypothesis that they would like to submit for peer review. I am sure they would find most of us pretty anxious to have a look at it.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 7:44 PM

BFG I didn't say he wasn't capable it is not part of his nature. Wouldn't you say you are capable to do certain things but you won't because of your nature? Do you really think the New Testament was written as a result of reading the Old Testament? Come on that argument won't hold water. Who else was born of a virgin, died and rose 3 days later? There may be other claims but we only have one living saviour, Jesus.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 3:16 PM

An all powerfull being cant choose to tell a lie? kinda shoots a whole in the god is un-knowable and capable of all things doesn`t it?

and using fulfilled prophecy as evidence that god exists is circular logic. the guys who wrote the new testament had already read the old testament, so it couldn`t have been that hard to "Paul Bunyan" Jesus in to the role of prophecy fulfiller. keep in mind he wasnt even close to the first guy be born of a virgin and redeem human kind. check Egypt, Assyria, Babylon etc. they all have one or two martyrs that were "perfect beings"

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 2:21 PM

Prophecy, the Bible and Jesus

http://carm.org/prophecy-bible-and-jesus

"Fulfilled prophecy is strong evidence that God is the author of the Bible, because when you look at the mathematical odds of prophecy being fulfilled, you quickly see a design, a purpose, and a guiding hand behind the Bible. If just one prophecy failed, then we would know that God is not the true God, because the creator of all things, which includes time, would not be wrong about predicting the future."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 11:38 AM

The men that wrote the bible how could they have foretold the future? You know with the information at hand.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 11:34 AM

God can't lie it is not part of his nature.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 11:32 AM

Where did God come from?

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 11:30 AM

for ever the earth was the center of the universe. to speak otherwise was blasphemous and potentially leathal. Pope John Paul and his successor both recognized the Helio-centric solar system as part of a larger universe.

the popes word is up-held in heaven (according to the book from which he draws his power). God either lied in the bible about his voice on earth, or the universe changed its structure fundamentally about the time of Galileo.

or maybe (and I know this will rub some of you the wrong way, Sorry) the guys who wrote the book thought they knew how things were based on the information they had at hand and didn`t leave room for improvement or change.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 11:26 AM

BFG when has God ever changed his mind?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 10:12 AM

the nice part about Science is that it allows for change and the people at the top of the field are subject to criticism and are viewed as capable of making a mistake.

with Religion you are forced to "just accept" what the man at the top says as the gospel and go with it for life unless he changes his mind, in that case the whole world was wrong and he had to re word what he was saying to get the point across.

for instance are condoms okay? how about for Gays? should you beat kids with a stick? should religious officials report criminal abuse of children by other religious figures? is it okay to hit women (ever or under certian circumstances)is there a hell where the sinners are tortured endlessly (Besides Gitmo)?

all these questions have been answered on both sides by the church. Hawking can make mistakes he admits it but via doctorine the pope conveys the word of god and his word is law. (even supporting the church`s policy of un-involvement during the HOLOCAUST)

I gotta choose the guy who leaves room for error over the guy who bases a "knowlege of the universe" on a book written 2000 years ago (by people who never met the 2 main characters) and edited over and over for political reasons back and fourth since then.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 8:37 AM

"Stephen Hawking dismisses idea of a universal creator, calls heaven a 'fairy story'"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/16/st...

ROTFLMAO

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 17, 2011, at 1:37 AM

So an unbeliever has to believe Jesus commanded the Christians and if they don't follow his commands they are not Christian. I nor you nor Mahr can make that call. You are saying if a person sins or disobeys Jesus command they are not Christian? We are all sinners, believers are still sinners saved by grace. If there is not a God why is it such a big deal for some to prove there is not? If when we woke every morning do we believe that when our feet hit the floor we can stand and walk, of do we wait for sufficient evidence and a peer review to tell us we can? There are no guarantee that it will happen we just know that it happened yesterday but will it happen today? Do we believe when we go somewhere in our car we will return safely, a lot of people also believe that but never return. So news does everything you believe in have evidence and peer review to back it up? No, just don't let it be an excuse to deny God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 16, 2011, at 11:15 PM

So you are saying an unbeliever has to believe to be an unbeliever?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 16, 2011, at 10:59 PM

rr3yv0

Bill directly answers your question in the video.

As he points out, he is not judging anyone.

Instead he is pointing out that many so-called Christians do the opposite of what Jesus did and said.

In addition, as he points out, "...If you ignore everything Jesus commands you to do, you are not a Christian."

...and like Bill, "I can say that because I am a non-Christian...just like most Christians."

Perhaps you missed that part, but its in there.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 16, 2011, at 6:23 PM

It amazes me the faith some put in man's opinion of God. Willing to believe anything but the bible. What qualifies Mr. Mahr to judge the qualities of a Christian? Only God can do that but you have faith or believe in Mahr's opinion? Where's the logic in that? Just wondering?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 16, 2011, at 7:15 AM

fulltimer

We are in complete agreement.

I have no problem what so ever with the good folks who walk in the footsteps of Jesus.

Its the ones that claim to be Christians then cheer on everything Jesus was against -- like violence, war, killing, ect -- that bother me.

I think Bill Mahr puts it best when he says...

"If you rejoice in revenge, torture and war ...you're not a Christian"

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/0...

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 15, 2011, at 9:20 PM

Well Fulltimer

I sure do understand your feelings in the matter.

However, the Judeo/Muslim/Christian God can be pretty ruthless.

I recommend you just have a quick read through just 2 Books of the Bible -- the Book of Leviticus and the Book of Deuteronomy. Those 2 alone can give you a pretty good idea of what that God is capable of doing.

Also, you may want to consider some of the other rather ruthless, blood thirsty things the Judeo/Muslim/Christian God has done -- such as committing Genocide, ordering the murder of children (first born of egypt for example), and rape of a child (Mary was a 13 year old at the time God "inserted" his 23 genes into Mary -- even if she had known he intended to take her virginity away from her, a 13 year old is not an adult and not capable of making such a decision or consenting to such an act).

Yeah the Bible if full of such stories. Sure Jesus was a great guy. He was a wonderful man and a great teacher of love and peace. But that fellow in the Old Testament is one mean, ruthless, blood thirsty, vengeful, genocidal maniac. So I would not be surprised at all that he has no qualms at all about sending folks to eternal pain and suffering.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 15, 2011, at 7:33 PM

Bill Maher: "If you rejoice in revenge, torture and war ...you're not a Christian"

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/0...

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 10:31 PM

"Why We Believe in Gods - Dr. Andy Thomson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eM...

Dr. Thmson is a practicing psychatrist and professor of psychiatry, a physician, and one of the World's formost experts in evolutionary, biological psychiatry.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 8:48 PM

"How Religion Hijacks Cognitive Mechanisms" Dr. Andy Thomson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pCIZa0R-...

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 8:42 PM

"Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpH...

"Who Says Science has Nothing to Say About Morality?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm2Jrr0tR...

"Morality: From the Heavens or From Nature?' by Dr. Andy Thomson"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8I...

For an intellectual, science based approach to the question of the real source of morality, be sure and watch these lectures.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 7:41 PM

There are some that claim to be Christians that make the same claim of the bible that you do FT. I believe for it to be relevant it has to be all true we can't just accept bits and pieces of it that we like. We need to wholly accept or wholly deny it, I don't believe there is an in between.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:52 PM

Never heard of a bearded magician in the New Testament.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:49 PM

There are many ways to believe FT but Jesus says that we can only come to the father through him. Now I believe that to be true whether anyone else believes it or not. The path to heaven is a narrow one for if it wasn't everyone would have a pass. If everyone was going what would we disagree on?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:47 PM

So FT would you say the bible is fiction or non-fiction?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:43 PM

Why is this life so precious if we cannot look toward anything after? To me if all we have to look forward to is nothing then life don't mean much.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:39 PM

FT sounds to me you are trying to explain what you believe without a base or on something you think is bs. Oh don't worry about leaving property or wealth to your kids because the government will get it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:36 PM

I believe FT you said the bible was bs so why is anything in it relevant? Is a book of fairy tales relevant? How do you know what God looks like no one alive has seen him?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:29 PM

So FT what incentive is their to live right(by your definition)if when you die it is over and you will only be remembered for 2 generations? If it is over when we die why would we care how we live? I mean we won't know it will we?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:27 PM

WWMD

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:22 PM

Call it tunnel vision if you want FT but Jesus is alive the bible tells us so. That is unless you choose not to believe the bible.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:15 PM

"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 3:12 PM

Ahh but FT we serve a living God. Jesus is alive not dead. Mohammed is dead.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 2:55 PM

FT you said "You can live right, help others, be a good role model, have a nice attitude, smile often, be the best parent and friend that you can, and when you die it will be with the peace that you have really lived and with no regrets and hopefully you'll be remembered for at least 2 generations for good things".

How do you know how to live right? Where is the incentive to live right if you only become a memory for 2 generations? If that is all there is why do we have bad people? I mean can't we all just get along, I mean we will be remembered for 2 generations isn't that enough? Do you base this on something? or nothing?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 11:34 AM

Nice link News.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 11:10 AM

"I like the scientific spirit--the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: this is ultimately fine--it always keeps the way beyond open."

Walt Whitman

http://www.todayinsci.com/W/Whitman_Walt...

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 14, 2011, at 6:21 AM

Smokin' Cheetah

Dr, Dawkins tells a story of one of his professors that spent his whole life focusing on a hypothesis he was sure would prove to be correct. One day one of his students published some experiments he did that passed peer review and completely blew apart his professor's years of work towards his hypothesis. Dr. Dawkins said that the professor walked right over to the student, shook his hand, and thanked him for proving his (the professor's) hypothesis wrong.

New data and new information often cancel out previously held theories and provide the groundwork for the new theory. Science has always been dynamic. Science is just a method for discovering truth by supporting positive hypothesis and weeding out false positives. Many scientists do disagree on many things. That is why we have a peer review process and why science is constantly evolving. It is also why the independent verification process is such an important part of the process.

The links you provided regarding life on other planets and what constitutes evidence for such hypothesis are great examples of this. For now both the links refer to hypothisis...an educated guess as yet unproven. Will they find enough evidence to prove this? Who knows? Probably, however neither of those links refers to theory -- only disagreement over whether or not the evidence found so far is enough to establish theory. So far, I know of no peer reviewed theory that there is or was life on another planet nor am I aware of any concrete evidence that establishes such a theory. However, more and more evidence is being gathered and there is a lot of testing to do long before they ever get to the rigorous and difficult peer review process.

"Richard Dawkins on the origins of life (1 of 5)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa55s9Gs_...

"Richard Dawkins: Why are there still Chimpanzees?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh0F4FBLJ...

"Why We Believe in Gods" - Andy Thomson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eM...

"A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXByRjJnN...

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 13, 2011, at 10:42 PM

That is found somewhere near "blessed are the cheese makers" if I remember correctly.

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, May 13, 2011, at 1:29 PM

"Science is possible and actual only because the non-believer's principle is not true and the believer's principle is true. Only because God has created the universe and does control it by his providence, is there such a thing as science at all."

- Cornelius Van Til

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 13, 2011, at 12:29 PM

So much for the King James version. Think your could post that in the NIV, or maybe even the New Living version of that last post fulltimer?

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, May 13, 2011, at 7:34 AM

No more, I say no more fulltimer! You are driving me to lachrymosity.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 11:25 PM

http://www.amazingbible.org/

There is a vast amount of information on this site but I want to draw attention to scroll down a little and read the testimony of a skeptic. Interesting read.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 9:33 PM

Thanks Phil, now I recall it. It is funny. Yes, I see the correlation.

Sometimes one sketches a circle to highlight a target.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 5:06 PM

Something along the lines of "If you get hurt and can't work, it don't hurt to miss work, and they give you cash, which is just as good as money."

Really nothing to do with what you said, I just got lost and had to think, kind of like the guys listening to Yogi.

-- Posted by Philemon on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM

Well said Philemon...I think. ;)

I don't remember the old Yogi commercial. Would you refresh me on that particular utterance by the master of the malaprop?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 1:42 PM

OKR,

After reading your last comment, I had an immediate flash on the old AFLAC commercial featuring Yogi Berra.

Also, and a bit out of date, your response a while back about abortion proved the point I was trying to make perfectly, that right and wrong can be very subjective depending on the person. I'm not wanting to debate abortion here, but some people equate it to murder, while others would equate not allowing abortion to slavery. Very few issues can be debated in such a broad spectrum by individuals that most would consider upright citizens.

Not sure if I put that quite right but I hope you got my meaning.

-- Posted by Philemon on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 1:29 PM

You said fulltimer; "RationalThinker seems to be the only rational thinker on board here."

I hope you were speaking only of the immediate thread. Otherwise I find your comment irrational. As a matter of fact, even were you referencing the instant context, your comment remains irrational because by applying the exclusive word "only" to RT, you excluded yourself being a rational thinker. It would be irrational to accept as rational a statement by one who denies that he is a rational thinker. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 11:15 AM

If evolution were true, then if a tornado went through a lumber yard wouldn't it leave behind a house ready to move into? People would ask who built your house and you could say nobody it just happened just like evolution.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 11:07 AM

RT how do you know the bible is a con?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 11:03 AM

News if scientific evidence fully supports natural selection then it should also be able to fully explain it don't you think? You know how does life come from non-life? order from chaos?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 11:03 AM

FT if the brain can heal itself without God then why do we grow old and die shouldn't our bodies be able to heal theirself? I mean after thousands of years of evolution, if we evolve to a better state then shouldn't our life span be much longer than our average of 70+ years? Why should we die at all? Without God we should be able to do anything we want, right?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 10:59 AM

The bible is almost the perfect book for the con it represents. It continually advises that if you don't follow it/him, you will face drastic punishments, as well as giving vague advice on all kinds of subject matter that are left open to interpretation throughout. It is a cross between the Farmer's almanac and a book of horoscopes. It is so sad that there are so many delusional people who have wasted their entire lives believing in something written by other delusional people. If they would really open their hearts (and minds) to understanding that there is so much more beauty and awe in our universe than their holy books try to simplify, they might have a chance to fully enjoy this one life they have been lucky enough to have under extremely difficult odds. The universe is so fantastic because science has shown us how vast and varied that it is. Without science we would know nothing about the galaxies and details of the planets and magnificence of molecular biology. Without science, we might believe we are on a small and isolated flat land being manipulated by some being who occasionally tosses tsunamis and destruction on us for reasons that must be related to our actions -- oh, that's right, that's how the delusion got started :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Thu, May 12, 2011, at 5:21 AM

rr3yv0

Well you may believe everything is "created" fully evolved but that is not what the scientific evidence says. The scientific evidence seems to fully support natural selection and there is no evidence to support creationism or intelligent design.

If the creationists have scientific evidence then perhaps they should submit their findings to a reputable science journal and see how it pans out under peer review.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 10:49 PM

Husband Celebrates Miracle as 'Brain Dead' Wife Wakes Up in Hospital

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/05/11...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 10:15 PM

Why is the biblical creation myth right?

http://carm.org/secular-movements/evolut...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 9:57 PM

The only thing you have wrong News is that each species is fully created not evolved.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 9:49 PM

RR

That is an easy one...lol.

The simple life forms of today are the fully evolved forms of their species.

A modern ameba is a fully evolved ameba.

A modern wolf is a fully evolved wolf.

A modern chimpanze is a fully evolved chimpanzee.

Will they evolve further in the future? probably..if they don't become extinct first.

Also, I read in the article you posted a number of errors contridicted by the peer reviewed science.

They attempt to argue irreducible complexity. Yeah...that concept was wiped out by the scientific evidence presented at the creationist trial when scientist showed the creationists the futher reduce structure the creationists claimed didn't exist.

You really should watch the video about the trial. You will learn a few things you don't know now.

"Intelligent Design On Trial" NOVA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVDeIKCC...

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 9:31 PM

RationalThinker

Well I guess May 21st will be the day of put up or shut up for that group of Christianists mate lol lol lol...

Do you think when it does not happen the preacher will apologize for misleading his "flock?"

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 9:02 PM

Why are there still simple life forms if life evolves from simple to complex?

http://carm.org/secular-movements/evolut...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 8:57 PM

Probability

http://carm.org/secular-movements/evolut...

Odds against evolution occurring are astounding!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 8:54 PM

"How To Shut Up Pesky Creationists"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK3O6KYPm...

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 7:40 PM

Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 12:07 PM

"The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one."

- Ed Harrison

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 11, 2011, at 12:01 PM

RT how do you know you have opened your heart? The bible says in end times that a man's heart will be hardened, he will see evidence and still not believe. So is your heart open or hardened? I don't know. The bible also says that no one knows when the end will come only God knows. There is a difference between opening your heart and making poor choices.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 10, 2011, at 9:34 PM

Radio evangelist Harold Camping believes that he has calculated the exact date of the rapture: May 21, 2011.... Should Harold Camping's flock open up their hearts and believe what this looney guy is saying?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, May 10, 2011, at 7:03 PM

So, rr3, you claim to see what I cannot see, and feel what I cannot feel, because I have not opened up my heart? But, I have opened up my heart and my heart tells me to trust that which has propelled mankind out of the dark ages, making discoveries that explain why and how things happen that used to only be explained by "god did it". Yes, the earth rotates around the sun, and current man has been around for around 200,000 years (not long, really). Yes, my heart tells me to trust what can be proven and verified via the scientific method. If we had to rely on those who put their total faith in the various holy books, we'd still be members of small feudal tribes sacrificing animals and humans to those gods who cast tsunamis and hurricanes on us for somehow offending Him. My heart tells me to be skeptical of those who claim to see things I cannot see that cannot be repeated or verified.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Tue, May 10, 2011, at 7:01 PM

SC you make a good point and it may very well be true but I can't find in the bible where God speaks to the unbeliever all the time only in special instances. I think sometimes God only makes himself know when a person is ready to receive him. We also need to be careful and not believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church over what is in the bible.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 10, 2011, at 2:01 PM

"The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the big bang are enormous... I think clearly there are religious implications whenever you start to discuss the origins of the universe."

- Stephen W. Hawking

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 10, 2011, at 12:45 PM

Well RT you kind of missed the whole thing in my opinion of course. God probably hasn't talked to you because he don't want to, have you ever thought that? He will not speak to a heart that is unwelcome to him, wouldn't that be a waste of time? I don't know if it is your fault but as for all non-Christians thinking this is ridiculous do you think that is a true statement? Do you really think man has been around for 200,000+ years?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 9, 2011, at 10:47 PM

Agree SC, but that is my perspective. I defend this private newspaper's right to make the decision. Guess they would be up, a moral creek if a woman became President. That would at the least highlight what at the least would be moral silliness, no pictures in their newspaper of the President of the United States!

News; right on!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 9, 2011, at 10:22 PM

Rr3: "I can't change your mind only God can. God through the Holy Spirit speaks to a person's heart that's when they believe."

Well, RR3, so far god has not spoken to me at all, and I'm a long way from being a young man. Why hasn't he intervened and spoken to me? Do you believe this is my fault? Can you see how utterly ridiculous this seems to all non-christians? You are in a very select group of people who will live in some type of everlasting life while the vast majority of everyone alive today and every one of the billions of humans who has died in the past 200,000+ years of our existence will have ever lasting life in some form of a torture chamber. Have I missed anything?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, May 9, 2011, at 6:38 PM

RT I feel that you have every right to believe or not believe in anything you want, it really doesn't matter if I accept it or not. I can't change your mind only God can. God through the Holy Spirit speaks to a person's heart that's when they believe. I look forward to eternity with God the only fear I have is of not being worthy but through Jesus dying on the cross I can be forgiven. All I can do is pray that God will speak to your heart, you will have to make the decision.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 8, 2011, at 10:55 PM

rr3, do you accept my statement that I have no desire to believe in any of the holy books from any of the religions? And since I do not take those writings as universal truths, what could possibly change my mind to all of a sudden start believing in them? Fear of eternal hell? What is your motivation for believing in the bible, is it fear of punishment or the desire to live forever?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, May 8, 2011, at 12:17 PM

RT if there is a God why would he give you or me for that matter, give us a pass without believing in him? What would make us worthy? You're right belief in God may not change you ethical or moral action but if you become born again then you are a new creation and do not want to go back to the old ways. It is a work of the Holy Spirit within a believer.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB95)17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 7, 2011, at 9:20 PM

Fulltimer it's not my place to prove you or anyone else false.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 7, 2011, at 9:00 PM

I had a couple of posts on the prior month thread that I didn't realize was no longer used. So much for adding a link to favorites. Anyway, the following post is related to right vs wrong, but was in response to posts a couple of weeks ago:

Buttons, Google Pascal's Wager as The Empress mentioned and you'll find many articles on the ridiculousness of it. Let me flip it the other way, a rational I remember coming up with all by myself when I was young. If god is really that good and all knowing, then he will be able to see that he made me in such a way that I just can't make myself believe all this crazy "Santa Clause for adults" type stuff, and he's surely give me a pass. Even that is a little crazy as it isn't worth the time to think about. That is when I realized I do have a strong sense of right and wrong and that I act it out every day. And, it has absolutely nothing to do with fear, since I do not believe in a supernatural being/force. The holy books were written by men and for men (obviously not for women), and Buttons, your ethical and moral actions, however they define you, will not change with or without a belief in a god.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, May 7, 2011, at 8:11 AM

Should we acquire wisdom or not?

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/job-s...

"The unbelievers who try and defy God or proclaim that God is not true or that the Bible is not true will all be proven false."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 9:18 PM

SC no offense taken this has been a great discussion. I just made the point that there are those that believe life came from non life, order came from chaos, moral behaviour just happens and then they expect everyone to believe it to be true. Simply amazing the faith to believe something made up by man to satify mans curiosity. The Greeks had all sorts of Gods and they even had one they called the Unknown God just to make sure they had all the bases covered. God has to ultimitely reveal himself to them I can only tell about him.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 1:21 PM

If we as a society can deny a woman the right to remove something from her uterus, then it follows that we can also insist that she remove her uterus. We do not have the moral right to do either. Women should not be told by others what to do with their uterus whether a tumor, or anything else grows there. It is personal.

In a free society one group can not insist that another group abandon their own moral code, and accept theirs instead.

I submit that murder is a subjective concept in the context of this conversation, and laws should be based on objective concept. Never on one group's subjective opinion. The result of such nonsense results in people having to live under such things as Sharia law.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 12:24 PM

SC and Phil it could have to do with anything we consider right or wrong. My point is not that it is wrong but how we determine something is wrong. I think all of us have done something wrong in our lives, we knew it was wrong before we did it but we did it anyway. Is it wrong to exceed the posted speed limit? Yes! Do we do it anyway? Sometimes whether on purpose or accidentally. Without God how do we know right from wrong? If we know it without God then how? Adam and Eve knew no wrong until they sinned. They didn't even know they were naked until they sinned. So I beg the question of how do we know something is wrong without having faith that it just happened or it is because of God? You say we have our own moral compass but how do we get it? I do know that we serve a living God and even though I don't have all the answers God does, whether you believe it or not.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 11:04 AM

Nana if you believe in something but cannot explain why we have it or how it started then is that faith or reason? How did we gain the capacity to learn to reason?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 10:45 AM

My first instinct was to agree with Cheetah on this. I had even been kind of annoyed at the approach. Upon further consideration, maybe it's not so cut and dry. There are many other "wrong " things that I think should be just as easily recognized, but aren't necessarily. For example, is it wrong to torture someone? Is it wrong to kill unborn children? Is it wrong to go to war with a country that has done no harm to you and has no capability of doing harm to you? I think all those things should be obviously wrong, but I bet a majority of people on this blog wouldn't even agree with me on all of them.

By the way, I do understand where you are coming from rr3, even if some didn't. I think your point that we need God to know what is right and wrong is a bit flawed. Everyone has their own moral compass about the basics of right and wrong whether they believe in God or not. As Christians, we should have a different moral compass than others. That doesn't necessarily mean a higher moral compass. For example, about half of the 10 commandments have nothing to do with right or wrong except to a Christian. A Buddhist for example, would be breaking all the commandments concerning God, but could have a higher moral compass than many Christians. Unfortunately, that would do nothing for him in the afterlife, according to what I and other Christians believe.

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, May 6, 2011, at 8:06 AM

Each of us mobile colonies of bacteria? I'll have to think about that one Fulltimer. H-m-m-m?

I thought. Guess it's true in a broad sense.

But then, we are also each a starship giving organization to a quantity of atoms, aren't we?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 8:41 PM

So it is wrong because it is? So you are saying we have instincts just because? What kind of faith is that? Where and when did it start?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 8:36 PM

Fulltimer I never questioned whether it was legal or not. I want to know how you know it is wrong?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 7:25 PM

"Calculate Your God Delusion Index"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCX0JJ16d...

So how did everyone do on the test?

I scored a 0.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 5:15 PM

RR3yvo,

its wrong because one person is trampling on the civil and human rights of another and respecting the rights of others and excersizing your own is the only real peace to be found.

the fact that I actually had to type the above made me wanna pull out whats left of my hair. for my own mental well-being I am going to pretend that you two are prodding each other for the purpose of educating the masses by forcing others to concider the question

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 2:12 PM

Why is rape wrong fulltimer? Is it wrong because you say it is?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 1:20 PM

Do you really have any doubt as to what I believe on this issue rr3? After all our exchanges? ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 11:54 AM

"Calculate Your God Delusion Index"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCX0JJ16d...

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 7:28 AM

What do you believe okr?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 1:08 AM

What was the sin of Sodom, and Gomorrah, an alternative view. http://www.jpnordin.com/christianity/bib...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 5, 2011, at 12:51 AM

What Science Can't Prove

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsA...

"Some take the position that if science doesn't give us reason to believe in something, then no good reason exists. That's simply the false assumption of scientism."

"Don't ever concede the idea that science is the only method available to learn things about the world."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 1:57 PM

What was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsA...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 1:47 PM

I didn`t mean to say you intended to take a shot I simply wanted to point out how the meaning behind the written word gets lost when not enough words are used.

"I thought our editor believed that too." very well could be taken as a statement that you no longer think that way as a result of recient mistreatment.

or even that you were batting the wasps nest to see what would come out. either way I think prudence is in order.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 12:07 PM

By the way Cheetah I wasn't singling you out just because you are my friend, but as an example as to how I approach posting here. I was considering BFG, and all the other good posters, of all persuasions. If I had properly edited myself I wouldn't have used any names. What the hey!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 9:43 AM

Cheetah I think you are great guy, and I enjoy your comments. You don't push your brand of Christianity, but do defend it. For the record, I respect you.

On the other hand I have a satirical bend of mind, and make fun of everything. Regarding religion, I poke fun at Atheists, Christians, Muslims etc. They can all be pompous *****. About the only ones I don't poke fun at very often are some agnostics, who have the humility to say I don't know, but I choose to believe such, and such. Further I never scoff at the right of anyone to make the religious choices they have made. I may, in fact I do comment, when I see something humorous about their choices, and it often is something that seems to me illogical.

I do believe that Eric does a good job of keeping the lid on these blogs, and is mindful as to whether or not comments are respectful. There is a fine line between monitoring respectfulness, and allowing passionate discussion. I think he does a good job of walking that line. It seems to me that he sometimes allows some of we passionate hard heads, a good deal of lee way when we are going back, and forth at each other on a subject, and not harming, nor insulting others. I think that is an example of his effort to not impede free discussion. It is when things get personal, and hostile that he steps in. He has expunged my comments on multiple occasions. On reflection I usually understand why, and if not I let it go. He is the referee, and I don't want that second technical foul that tosses me from the game.

I don't know all the reasons I have gotten on this topic this morning, and perhaps I have senselessly rambled. Perhaps my core reason was to say hey we are mostly all a good group of guys, and gals. Can't we all get along? Have a great day every one.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 9:39 AM

I'd go so far as to say "intelligent conversation" is impossible without respect

I thought our editor believed that too.

lofty ideals followed by a backhanded shot. this is surely an accident or un intentional slight but it is a good example of that whole respect thing and how you value it so highly.

you`re right It aint happening

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, May 4, 2011, at 9:33 AM

Empress I didn't state people in general oh but you already know that and just didn't put that in your post. I guess you have never been harsh or judgemental to anyone in your entire life but you want to judge me? Go figure! We don't like to the fact that Jesus would judge someone because it will be us that he judges. Acting Christian won't cut it but you can try.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 3, 2011, at 3:15 PM

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek, Fulltimer on the Bin Laden martyred, and three days later coming out of a cave. Think thoughts of the Muslims finally having their parallel to the Jesus story, radicalization of their whole God story, militancy, neoevangelism with a twist, on, and on.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 3, 2011, at 1:34 PM

Fulltimer if it is all a lie how do you know that?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 10:10 PM

Empress to not be a Christian you seem to know how all Christians act but yet you want to act like one. Having a little trouble making sense of that one. Jesus showed compassion for the poor but was pretty harsh on the lazy. Just read the reference I gave you. Jesus did judge because he is qualified to do that. We can only strive to be like Jesus but as sinners we will never achieve that in this life. Why do you seem to think you know what a Christian should be like and you aren't one? Who's the judge now?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 10:08 PM

Fulltimer it appears we are not the naive one here!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 9:56 PM

So fulltimer we make a martyr, and don't even kill the guy, setting up a resurrection? This is getting more bizarre by the day.

I hope they did get Bin Laden because if he comes out of a cave in three days all h*ll is going to break loose. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 9:31 PM

There was once a group of dudes who's religious beliefs and way of thinking didn`t jive with those around them even people who believed in the same religion as the dudes.

They had a main guy who had a dream of changing the world, and he was loved dearly by many, he had to spend a lot of time in hiding. When he was found the most powerful government in the world disgraced his body and had him killed along with some of his friends.

The worst thing that govt could have done was to kill this man because his followers now view him as a martyr. the strength of that idea went on to propel that dude's followers into making themselves in to the most powerful force in the world ushering in an era of corruption and erosion of the rights of women and anybody who didn`t agree with them that lasted nearly 2000 years.

I wonder what Osama's 12 best friends are doing right now.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 5:56 PM

Empress I did answer your question maybe you don't like the answer. I have to side with SC you can read what Jesus said you don't have to think.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 3:34 PM

Empress when we pay our taxes or "render unto Ceasar" it is no longer our money but we have a right to question how it is spent. You need to read the parable of the talents found in Matthew 25:14-30 to find what Jesus said to the lazy. Poor people yes we need to help them. You can also find many references to the lazy in Proverbs and other parts of the bible. Poor is a situation many of us have been in at some point in our lives but we don't have to stay. Lazy is not a good thing to be.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 2, 2011, at 11:44 AM

And then there is the town of Liberal in Missouri, settled by free thinkers around 1880, and the earliest source of liberals getting a bad name in Missouri. It is in Barton County, southwestern Missouri. http://www.evermore.imagedjinn.com/home/...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 11:05 PM

I know that there are several free thinkers who post here. Just a heads up, the next time you are in Hermann Mo. raise a glass of their fine local wine to the free thinkers who were instrumental in (among other things) the settlement of Hermann. The verbal portion of the toast could most appropriately be, in vino veritas.

Check this out: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/freethinke...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 10:26 PM

Fulltimer there are many organizations that benefit from 501(c) tax status. Is it just churches or are there others you would like to single out? I think it nags me more to know that my tax money goes to people too lazy to work called entitlements. At least people can choose to give or not give to a church. They choose whether to support the preacher or not. I don't have that choice with my tax money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 3:42 PM

May is a month in which Mary, the mother of Jesus, is especially honored. As a Christian, I'm happy to honor her! Thank you, Mary! Sancta Maria, ora pro nobis!

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 3:03 PM

Happy May Day!

-- Posted by Eric Crump on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 10:08 AM


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