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Monday, May 2, 2016

Speak Out [religion] April 1 to May 1, 2011

Friday, April 1, 2011

This forum is for discussing religious issues. The same standards of behavior apply as are spelled out on our home page in the introduction to Speak Out.

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Call me an optimist (occasionally), but I think the internet will be considered to be one of the most important advances in the human race. And I think it will not be very many years away as it is advancing the sharing of knowledge and ideas exponentially beyond any other tool for communication we have developed. Of course, that also depends on how much suppression of it takes place as well. We've already seen that it is difficult to suppress because of the interface of cell phones that can also access the internet, and sites like Twitter and Facebook can still bring groups together around the world, even in suppressed societies. We are starting to see the leading edge of what it can do to move long suppressed societies toward recognizing the will of the people. So, with that background, I believe the internet will be able to bring the vast majority of people who act religious, but who really have doubt, together and understand they are not alone. Before the internet, you could be a member of a congregation and feel there must be something wrong with you because of your doubts, doubts you thought were only your own problem, or those of a very small minority. But the internet has opened the door to see the truth, and that we are part of an extremely large group of rational people who don't buy into all that witch doctor stuff (why are the vast majority of top scientist atheist?). The worst human rights offenders are the Muslims, and we are starting to see this new era of communication starting to chip away at the foundation of inhumane treatment propagated by their irrational following of a holy book that can be interpreted in so many malevolent ways. And yes, so can all the other religious books be interpreted wrong as well. So, there is my optimistic view of how I think the internet will rapidly change our world.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 8:55 AM

Buttons, Google Pascal's Wager as The Empress mentioned and you'll find many articles on the ridiculousness of it. Let me flip it the other way, a rational I remember coming up with all by myself when I was young. If god is really that good and all knowing, then he will be able to see that he made me in such a way that I just can't make myself believe all this crazy "Santa Clause for adults" type stuff, and he's surely give me a pass. Even that is a little crazy as it isn't worth the time to think about. That is when I realized I do have a strong sense of right and wrong and that I act it out every day. And, it has absolutely nothing to do with fear, since I do not believe in a supernatural being/force. The holy books were written by men and for men (obviously not for women), and Buttons, your ethical and moral actions, however they define you, will not change with or without a belief in a god.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, May 1, 2011, at 8:33 AM

Buttons just for discussions sake, suppose the choice you made is not correct? You say what have I lost? Suppose that there is another choice that is correct, not Christianity. By adhering to Christianity instead of it you may have lost out on your bid for eternal life. So, your choice, if incorrect, could have undesirable consequences. Your I have lost nothing conclusion is not certain.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 30, 2011, at 10:43 AM

Have been reading the post on here, some people say the Bible is not true and there is no God, here is the way I feel,

If I live all my life for the Lord and when I die, I found out there is no heaven or God what have I lost,

BUT

If I live all my life for God and die, and find out there is a God and a heaven, what have I gained?

a home with Jesus and my loved ones who have gone on before me and eternal life,

So I'll take my chances and live a christian life.I'll go to church and worship God and live like the Bible says,

-- Posted by buttons on Sat, Apr 30, 2011, at 9:03 AM

Good question RT. Off the top of my head I think it will be less than most other fields. The reason I say that is because to me religion is an emotional thing usually tied to communion of some sort. The internet hampers that joining in celebration due to the solitary origin of communication on that forum.

You can write "Praise The Lord" all you want, but it does not have the emotional impact of shouting it in unison with your brethren.

On the other hand (my cynic cap back on) there will undoubtably be those religious charlatans who figure out a way to make a fast buck off of it. Currently I am personally aware of a minister who sends out timely Bible verses with correlated poetry, and a short message by e mail every Sunday morning with only a short request for donations. I recieved a forward of that from a friend. Such as that may suck a little money from the TV preachers, but it is too bland, in comparison to the show they put on.

Now video presentations may be a different thing, and we will have to see how that goes. At the present I think that those who are getting the evangelistic message from television, are traditionalists, and won't break their habit of doing that.

Hey I phone texts may catch the younger crowd, who may skip over the standard internet.

Well that clears the top of my head, leaving room for, perhaps, some good dreams, or visions if the current subject sticks in my mind. Good night.

P. S. There is a lot more to be said on the subject from different aspects, but I am tired.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 30, 2011, at 12:30 AM

Here is a question I'd like to hear personal opinions on: What do you feel will be the overall effect of the Internet on the world's religions over the next few years?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 8:21 PM

Rarely do I write a response to someone that I feel I've pretty well nailed what I wanted to say. One of my posts that was deleted was close to such a response. I should have copy and psted it into a Word document as I had no idea someone would possibly delete it. It had no profanity and IMO was just critical of rr3's adherence to the text of the bible and all religions. It must have struck a chord with the censor which I can only guess is a very religious person and took personal offense about my comments on religion. I'd cut and paste this into a word document, but it isn't that good :-)

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 8:14 PM

No fence taken Cheetah, I was straddling it. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 4:32 PM

rr3 did you miss the scoff at atheists, as you apparently missed the intent of the column. I'll spell it out, it was not a knock on religion, it was a knock on what people do with religion.

I am sorry that the column didn't dwell much on the Muslim religion, for your sake anyway. I do know how much you like to light up the Muslims. It might make you feel better if you just reread it substituting the word Muslim for Atheist, and for Christian every time those words pop up.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 2:41 PM

Wow okr I guess you were right I do bring out the best in you. Total lack of respect for anyone's religion. You really shine on that one buddy. Funny though is that all the fun is pointed mostly at Christianity not Islam. Oh that's right if you make fun of them they kill you.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 11:53 AM

Please click the link here, not on the post below to start reading a comical look at religion from A to Z. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 12:45 AM

A comical look at religion from Atheism to Zoroasterism. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 29, 2011, at 12:41 AM

rr3yvo.

The churches are already there. They can have thier cake and eat it to.You expect me to believe for one minute that the churches in this country aren't political while enjoing tax exempt status? I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering the absolute nonsense that religions believe in the first place. You realize you are being had by snakeoil salesmen don't you?

Sounds to me like you support having religion in government. Sounds great doesn't it, but what if it turns out it's not "your" religion? Let's say maybe the religion that ends up running the govt. is Islam or something else. Would you still support a theocracy? Maybe you should be careful what you wish for.

Maybe that should be the new liberal cause celeb. Removing tax exempt status from churches! How would that feel?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM

RT can you really be disrespectful without being mean?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 28, 2011, at 12:17 PM

Wtf in your vision of fairness I tend to agree that the churches should give up their tax exempt status. Then they could have more of a political presence in our current system. That would mean more political power against things like abortion and same sex marriage. No more seperation of church and state that is not in the consitution. Would you consider that fair? Be careful what you wish for.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 28, 2011, at 12:14 PM

Here's a thought. In an effort to save money (so they say) folks want to eviscerate funding for planned parenthood. So, how about in an effort to raise money we eviscerate the tax exempt status from churches. Sounds fair to me.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Apr 27, 2011, at 7:03 PM

Fulltimer, sounds like another (one of the few) rational thinker is on board. I'm not sure I'm still on board as I'm fairly sure someone keeps deleting some of my posts. And, no, not because of profanity, and I don't think I've been mean with my criticism of religion. I am disresptful of it mainly because there are a lot of religious people who want to interject it into our government and education system. Does anyone know who is in charge of this blog that might be deleting posts?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Wed, Apr 27, 2011, at 6:06 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
That would be me. Each case is a judgment call. Commenters are welcome to object to my decisions (most do, I imagine; some say so): ecrump@marshallnews.com

I don't always have time to respond (at least not immediately, especially as the paper's deadline looms) but I read all messages I get.

Welcome to the fray Fulltimer.

Nana more often you should not resist your impulses. Sometimes "if it feels good do it" results in others feeling good, and being better informed.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Apr 27, 2011, at 12:03 PM

Nana I think that could be equally applied to "liberalism in America" don't you think? The problem is not religion but the lack of it. That is easily seen by your lack of respect for someone's opinion besides your own. We can always tell the virtue of a person by the fruit they produce don't you think? When you lack an argument you destroy your opponents character right? Maybe you should have put this in the political blog. God bless Nana and Have a blessed day.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 27, 2011, at 7:05 AM

Fulltimer you say the earth was created but Jesus was a great illusionists. So maybe there is not really an earth and we aren't really here it is just a figment of our imagination. I think that would make just as much sense don't you?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 27, 2011, at 6:51 AM

What is the meaning of life?

"Many goals reveal their emptiness only after years have been wasted in their pursuit."

"In our humanistic culture, people pursue many things, thinking that in them they will find meaning."

http://answertheskeptic.com/2010/11/10/g...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 26, 2011, at 9:57 PM

The Metaphysics of Evolution

"Creationist" is to evolution what "racist" is to politics: A way of preventing discussion of what you do not want to discuss.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.h...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 26, 2011, at 9:47 PM

Sounds like a personal attack to me cheetah...does this mean you don't want to discuss the issue? The reason I ask is because you seem to be focused on me rather than the issue.

Does this mean you have exhasted your argument regarding the subject of faith?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Apr 26, 2011, at 4:45 PM

SC believer's should make an attempt to be Christ-like although feeble as it may be we should attempt.

News I admire your honesty of what you believe about the Christian faith, at least I am going to accept your honesty on faith unless you prove it otherwise. Food for thought though if your wife comes home from the store and tells you of something that went on while she was out would you believe her? Would you want testable, observable, repeatable, verifiable evidence of what she told you about before you would believe it? I think you probably love your wife and believe anything that she told you that happened to be true, why should it be any different with Jesus? He loved you enough to die on the cross so you can be saved. You would probably be willing to die for your spouse but you can't save them from sin. All Jesus wants is for us to love him enough so he can dwell in our hearts. No testable, observable, repeatable, verifiable evidence is going to do that. What right do we have to ask God to prove himself? Jesus just wants us to love him so we can experience the holy spirit in us. Jesus may stand at the door to your heart and knock but he won't break the door down you have to open it. News this is just my attempt to explain salvation and I just ask you to think about it, pick it apart and dig into it that's all. I just don't think everything you believe is backed by testable, observable, repeatable, verifiable evidence per my example.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 6:42 PM

Oh and cheetah I forgot to add

I don't apologize for being an American Democratic Socialist, I don't apologize for being a social libertarian, and I don't apologize for being an agitator.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 4:58 PM

Here cheetah, maybe this beautiful song will help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAy_uxmn1...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 4:39 PM

Well cheetah...I wouldn't exactly say we agree.

I think its fairer to say that until you have walked a mile in my shoes, you might want to be careful not to judge me to harshly.

If I have learned nothing else in life, I have learned that I can't please everyone all the time. So I do the best I can, stand firm with ideals that are supported by rational thought and empirical evidence, and I try to do the best I can to be a good -- albeit errant -- human being.

Thank you for your concern lol.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 4:35 PM

Hey speaking of religious humor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLKk00OYK...

and on a more serious note...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhk...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 3:49 PM

Smokin' Cheetah

Oh that's easy mate...I am only human.

Yeah I like good humor. Yeah I can laugh at jokes about God and Country both. I even laugh at jokes lampooning me. I like comedy and especially tongue-in-cheek humor.

I make no apologies for enjoying humor.

I make no apologies for being a skeptic.

I make no apologies for my humanitarian efforts made in concert with the Anglican Church here in Australia or my attendance and enjoyment of the felloship at St. James.

I make no apologies for challenging Christianist claims that have absolutely no factual basis.

I make no apologies for questioning religion.

I make no apologies for being a human being.

I ams what I ams and that is what I ams...like it or not...and that is how it is mate.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Apr 25, 2011, at 3:39 PM

RR as you know I am a skeptic.

I wish I could believe in a resurrection. It would make some aspects of life a lot easier. There is nothing I would like better than to know I will live forever and see my loved ones again. Only a fool would not want to believe that.

I wish I had your strength of faith mate, but the skeptic in me demands testable, observable, repeatable, verifiable evidence. I do envy your security of faith though. I know if nothing else, faith lends comfort to folks in difficult times and that in and of itself makes the Christian faith an attractive belief system.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 9:41 AM

Folks worry so much about the supposed next life that they forget to live this actual life.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 8:02 AM

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:55

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Romans 6:5

God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things have passed away. Revelation 21:4

Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. Amen.

Philippians 4:4

We can be assured of eternal life because of Jesus resurrection, victory over death. We serve a risen Saviour.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 7:59 AM

To not be a threat I sure draw a lot of fire just for stating what I believe and why I believe it. I would like to know what you believe and why you believe it then we could have some real discussion. We just need to remember the reason for Easter is that Jesus after dying for us overcome death by rising from the grave and was seen by over 500 eyewitness. We serve a risen Lord. He is risen--He is risen indeed. Happy Easter!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 7:01 AM

Thank you RT but how do you know that?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 6:54 AM

Well OKR

I do like to have some fun but not at the expense of other people's feelings. I regard many of us old timers in this forum to be friends...even friends who may have different views than mine lol. Anyway, I did enjoy the article rr posted a link to, and it was an interesting look at an important Christian foundation. It is my hope that we can all enjoy an academic discussion of the big 3 religions. After all, whether or not one is a believer or a skeptic, its a fasinating subject with a lot of mysteries. Most of all I hope I can learn some new things about Christianity. To me such things are the spice of life.

All apologies if my strange sense of humor offended anyone. There was never any intent on my part to offend.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Apr 24, 2011, at 2:59 AM

Yup News, and getting a rise out of somebody seems to be central to existence on this blog.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 6:53 PM

opps...I meant that last comment to be addressed to OKR lol...sorry for the confusion guys lol.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 4:54 PM

Thanks RR.

Yeah I was kidding around a bit, but actually it was a very interesting article and I agree with RR that the resurrection was absolutely necessary in order to establish Christianity as a distinct and seperate belief from Judaism. The resurrection is central to Christian belief.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 4:53 PM

Happy Easter to you too RR and thanks for that interesting article.

I kid around a lot but in fact I love intelligent and academic discussion of Religion. Though I am skeptical, I am still very interested in the complexity of the Big 3 religions.

I look forward to reading more articles like that one RR.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 4:48 PM

News ya got a humorist streak in you buddy. To me, a humorist is apt at taking a serious subject, and broadening serious observation to include the ridiculous, the absurd, and the irrational qualities of the subject. Then phrasing those observations with a twist that reflects that particular humorist's sense of the comedic. Any way that is what I found in your last post. I really enjoyed it.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 12:12 PM

News I really appreciate your honest answer. The thing that is hard to understand is that I don't believe we will have the same desires in our eternal life as we do in this life. Even as a believer I can only imagine what it will be like. Nobody will know until we get there for sure I just know it will beyond our imagination. The Muslim faith believe that for your good works and then hopefully Allah will be merciful and let you in heaven. As a Christian I am assured of a home in heaven because Jesus tells us so. Have a Happy Easter News and draw assurance from Jesus resurrection.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 7:54 AM

RR.

I read the article you posted a link to that looked at the importance of the ressurection to the Church. I found it to be an intersting and scholarly approach to the subject.

However, as an uncommitted skeptic, I have been debating which religious reward is the one I would prefer...which one would be right for me...if ya know what I mean.

I am sure you are already familiar with the Muslim concept of heaven...the virgins, the rivers running with wine, ect. I have to admit the Muslim reward appears to have some very attractive qualities to it. I mean its pretty much eternal partying, having a real good time, and from what I understand under the Muslim plan, the wife has no say in the matter.

However, I am a bit perplexed on the Christian take on the afterlife. Since Jesus pretty much solved the multiple-wives-after-resurrection issue by pointing out that the next life would not be like that, it would appear that normal marital relations are not part of the plan.

I can appreciate the "new-start" element of the Christian post resurrection plan, but since I will no longer be obligated to my wife after my resurrection does this mean I will be free to enjoy some of the qualities the Muslims have already pointed towards, and if so, it would seem one could find himself in some rather embarrassing situations. For example, what happens if my pre-resurrection wife finds out I am hanging out on the riverbank drinking wine and hanging out with my new girlfriend? I think such a situation could put a real damper on this afterlife thing.

I think the problem is this. My wife would never accept the "but baby, this is the post-resurrection life -- its ok to do this" excuse. Sure that might work with other guy's wives, but my wife has a mean Irish temper and frankly I am loath to cross her.

As yet I remain uncommitted to any religion's take on the afterlife. However, this new information is pushing me slightly in the Muslim direction. Frankly, I think those Muslims are planning a big eternal party...and all the big names will be there -- yes including Cat Stevens. I do want to point out though that I am still open to learn more of the Christian plan, and I have not yet made a decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXD7WQAeW...

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Apr 23, 2011, at 4:40 AM

Everything Depends on the Resurrection

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, our hope is in vain.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblest...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 22, 2011, at 9:22 PM

Then also thank your good friend for me SC by telling him/her that interesting information provided by him/her was like a pebble tossed in a pond rippling, perhaps eternally, as I share it, and those share it. I hope that the power of words he/she uttered doesn't scare him/her to death. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 22, 2011, at 11:19 AM

Thanks for the link Cheetah. I did not know that was how Sunday School came about. Interesting.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 22, 2011, at 12:48 AM

One small example to illustrate my point, rr3. not that it was the only one. I know that if you think about you can come up with many other examples yourself. Just some key words to get you started. They have erupted, and receded always, in all parts of the world. Ancient Rome, The Inquisition, Hitler's Germany. The Turkish purge of Armenians, recent Ruwanda, Somalia.

We ain't goin to hell in a hand cart, except for some of us, in our own minds.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Apr 21, 2011, at 5:24 PM

I guess if you want to pull out a small example to support your argument okr then I would have to agree that my statement may be iffy. You know do what you do best.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 21, 2011, at 4:26 PM

rr3 your statement that morality is in decline is iffy at best. For example, in the late eighteen hundreds, in the cities of western civilization, their were thousands of small children living on the streets, engaging in every depravity known to human kind. That is no longer the case. Morality ebbs, and flows, it always has. I believe that in western civilization, we have a a less immoral society than we did in the past.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Apr 21, 2011, at 12:56 PM

BFG I'm not sure why you keep using faulty analagies for a perfect God. Nothing man makes is perfect. God's creation and everything in it was perfect but what kind of fellowship would that be if there was no other choice? God created Lucifer but his heart was filled with pride and he wanted to be like God so he was cast out of heaven. He knows that his mission is futile but he wants as much company as possible. God's creation was perfect until sin entered it and has been in a state of decline ever since. Why do you think morality in declining? It's not enlightenment it is sin. We have all kinds of names for it abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. Just because we make it sound good does not make it right it is still S-I-N.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 21, 2011, at 11:55 AM

Why would the boss put the crappy battery into the car if there is a chance that it would cause a catastrophic failure that cascades outward from the original problem or "sin"?

I am not the Boss by whatever name you call him/her (God, Allah, The Tao, etc.) but were I to create a system I would not design with pitfalls or obvious flaws like free will or evil.

I find it to be much more likely that man created god and due to man`s obviously imperfect nature he had to create a changeable, unfathomable God to fill the gaps in his knowledge of the world. By this plan no matter what happens it is explainable by the "god knows best" philosophy

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Thu, Apr 21, 2011, at 8:57 AM

BFG it wasn't the spirit of God indwelling the serpent that caused man to sin was it? The creation of the serpent was good. Your logic don't work.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 20, 2011, at 2:00 PM

god created all. by this logic you have to understand that he/she created the serpent aswell. thats like designing a flaw into the system, kinda like an electric car who`s battery catches fire. Sorry General Motors.

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Wed, Apr 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM

No offense Nana it's just you are usually pretty hard on me I just don't want to cut you any slack. lol

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 3:31 PM

BFG God didn't create sin either but we are all born sinners because of Adam. Everything God created was good so how can it go bad? Adam sinned because the serpent told him he would be like God if he ate the fruit. If God created us so that we had no choice but to love him we would be robots. He wants us to love him because we choose to, not because he made us. God already knows who will accept him and who won't but we still have to make that choice. Hell is real because all of us won't choose eternity with him so that is part of God's judgement. Purgatory is not talked about in the bible when you die it is too late to change your mind. Why is hell what it is? I don't know I just know I don't want to go there.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 3:30 PM

on a less confrontational note I have to ask a question brought up by a popular author/heretic. if there is a god, and if the best discription we have for that being is "Love", and all things are created and allowed to happen by the afore mentioned being. then how could there be a hell? why would somebody/thing who loves each and every one of his creations create a place where his/her "children" would suffer eternally?

the Idea of a Parental God who puts the less pure through the filter of years in purgatory to help them to change into something he would allow into his kingdom makes sence to me but the Idea of a perfect being (who made me in his/her image) completely giving up on one of his/her errant creations and chucking it in the trash to be tortured forever is kind of out of line with modern christian Beliefs. IMHO

-- Posted by BigFatGuy on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 2:21 PM

I find it a bit strange that someone would complain about the Bible being used as a source in a forum specifically about religion. On the other hand, I'm sure there would be complaints if the Koran were used also.

-- Posted by Philemon on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 8:29 AM

Nana because some one defends their faith do you have to attack? Am I a threat to you? I simply try to provoke discussion about it but then it seems whenever a person is confident in their faith your only defense it attack. I'm sure you believe in something defend that. As far as conversion that is up to the individual and God not me. Is it futile, sometimes but that is still up to God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 6:53 AM

So RT should I not use the bible to defend my faith? That would be like telling you not to use science to defend your position. Even believing in science takes a little faith because unless we are a scientist we have to believe that their conclusion it true. If you believe in evolution do you call it confidence or faith?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 6:47 AM

Nana did I ever deny that "Men are sinners and inherently evil"? I didn't think you believed that. I mean how can you have sin without a God?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 19, 2011, at 6:40 AM

rr3, you acuse me of speaking in generalities and all you do is quote the bible as your reference for everything. And that anything I have an opinion on is "faith". It is not "faith"; it is "confidence" in the scientific method. You know, the methodology used early to determine the earth revolved around the sun, where those with "faith" in their bible claimed Galileo to be a heretic. Confidence in science exists because repeated experiments produce the same predictable results - no such thing in religion.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Mon, Apr 18, 2011, at 9:47 PM

RT what is this Golden Rule you speak of and when does it happen in evolution? I hear you speaking in generalities but no specifics. Do you just have faith that it is so? I do see where reality is a scare tactic I mean real is real. Believe it or not. lol You fail to explain what good is. Doesn't if have to be compared to evil? Give me some examples of good and evil and how you come to that conclusion. What I understand so far is that it just happens. What if we lived in a closed society and anyone that tried to come in we would kill and eat them. Would that be good or evil? Let's assume there was no law against it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 17, 2011, at 9:20 PM

rr3, obviously being "good" involves subjectivity. In general, man has evolved and learned to work together in large groups for mutual benefit. Most of mankind has adopted the "do no harm" or follow "the golden rule" approach to being "good". I'm confident evolution is a driving force for this sense of goodness as well. Much of what is in your holy book (and most of the world's other religious holy books) has simple lessons and teachings similar to the golden rule. One exception is that they also demand you follow a specific deity belief or you will suffer in hell for eternity. Now isn't that a very manipulative way to scare you into believing in the absurd? I feel sorrow for those who fall for all that malarkey, and try living their life according to the rules that must be interpreted by those humans on earth who think they have some special communication with their deity. Witch doctors, all of them. If you tell me you have special contact with some supernatural being that I can't see or feel, you are either lying or delusional. Yes, there is "goodness" throughout the world taking place without following the ancient writings of tribal man. Our instincts through evolution drive the vast majority of us to follow the golden rule on how to be good. But if you want to be bad, the easiest way to stray away from the golden rule is to follow certain scriptures based on some delusional person's interpretation.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Apr 16, 2011, at 11:49 AM

Okr you didn't answer the question. You have to have faith it is so because you can't tell me when or how it happened in the evolution chain. Without God you can't answer the question.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 16, 2011, at 10:15 AM

rr3 go back a bit, we already had this discussion. The development of altruism in higher mammals through evolution, all the same stuff.

Here is a link I thought interesting that covers several facets of the subject. I hope you also find it interesting. http://www.reference.com/browse/altruism

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 11:29 PM

Okr how did we acquire a feels good sensation from evolution? I mean when did we acquire it in the billions of years of transition from whatever we were to what we are now? If we don't know then are we assuming? That is if you have the faith to believe in evolution!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 5:27 PM

Rational Thinker there was considerable discussion of Pascal's Wager (and Ocam's Razor), in either last month's (or the month before) religion blog. I thought you might enjoy reading that. Just a friendly heads up.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 10:55 AM

Perhaps I should expand my prior comment a bit before some one transposes it to"if it feels good, do it", and runs with that which is not at all what I meant. More precisely, we know good because it feels like good. Sociopaths, who unfortunately, are missing some characteristics shared by most may be an exception. The rest of us run with what we got which is refined (or perverted) by our individual environments. Nature, and nurture shape us. Some are shaped to have a need for being watched over, controlled by, and/or calmed by a sense of a higher power, others not. It is all good. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 10:47 AM

One knows good because it feels good. It is an acquired trait from evolution. We share it with at the least, several other mammals.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 10:30 AM

RT it is funny you say you will be a good person I ask you what is good? What do you base that on? Men are sinners and inherently evil so where do we even get the concept of good? From other man? I don't think so. If that was the case wouldn't we all be good? You cannot be good enough to earn eternal life with God. Without God what good is being good?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 6:12 AM

rr3: I just hate for a person to be wrong because eternity is a long time.If the big guy in the sky doesn't make any sense to you at all, then they try to scare you into believing in Him. Can't you see the ridiculousness in that?

Values says: I believe we must worship him if we want to have enteral life with him. Now if by chance what I believe in (BIBLE) is not true, what have I lost? If it is true!This is the famous, and really crazy, "Pascal's Wager". Voltaire called it indecent and childish. The basic criticism is: "the wager assumes one can consciously decide to believe, but that this is something one cannot do, and therefore Pascal's Wager could only ever be an argument for feigning belief. In addition, an omniscient god would presumably see through the deception". I will live my life as a good person to all humanity, animals, and try my best to make this a better place for my children and many grandchildren. I will not live my life with some irrational fear that some super being is watching over my every move. That would be such a waste of the one life you have. There is no God, so live a good life free from the dilusion.

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Apr 15, 2011, at 3:52 AM

PS you have every right to believe what you want just as I do. God's desire is for all of us to be saved and none should perish. Will it happen? No Jesus died for all that will be saved not for those that are never to be saved. Are you one of those that will be saved? I don't know only God knows. Am I pulling my hair out over this? No I'm already bald. Am I verbally and physically abusing people because their belief is different from mine? I don't think so. I believe that there is one true God if you choose not to believe it so be it. Do I have the right to tell you what I believe? Yes. Don't tell me I am verbally and physically abusing you because you don't agree. I am really a compassionate person but I don't care for whiners. I just hate for a person to be wrong because eternity is a long time.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 14, 2011, at 12:09 PM

There is no "one true God." No one deity is more "true" than another. Call me misinformed, but I believe that your God wouldn't want you arguing over the petty little details of names of deities and who worships and how, and all that meaningless jabber. We should embrace people who worship differently, or don't worship at all. What good will come of us ripping all our hairs out over all that? Wouldn't God want his beloved followers to worry more about themselves, living out lives of peace and devotion instead of, verbally and physically, destroying people whose ways differ from their own? Be you Christian, Pagan, Catholic, Jewish, or Muslim, you should pray, love, and mind your own dang business.

-- Posted by Purple Streamer on Wed, Apr 13, 2011, at 6:17 PM

What you may have lost is eternal salvation if your choice was wrong, and another that you do not believe is right.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Apr 13, 2011, at 6:11 PM

I believe there is a true God. I believe we must worship him if we want to have enteral life with him. Now if by chance what I believe in (BIBLE) is not true, what have I lost? If it is true!

-- Posted by values on Tue, Apr 12, 2011, at 3:12 PM

RT I didn't clarify on your second question. Muslim's worship a false God so they will no have eternal life in heaven with God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 10, 2011, at 8:58 PM

RT no I'm not a preacher but I do study God's word. It you were born to Christian parents would you be a Christian? That is up to the individual. Now if you were born to Muslim parents you would have no choice but to be Muslim. The reason I say that if you deny to Muslim faith then your parents can kill you and consider it honorable now that don't sound like much of a choice to me. My children will grow up in a Christian home but I can only encourage them to believe I cannot force them to. If you grow up in a home believing in a false God then you would have a tendency to follow that. Why do you think we have so many denominations in this country? We are not forced to believe in any one of them or none of them, we are free to choose. Why do you think Muslim countries are over 90% Muslim? They don't want to die. I know someone that went to Turkey and they were only in group of about 15 Christians that they knew about in the whole country. So to answer your question yes I would be Muslim if I had Muslim parents but thank God I live in America where I can worship as I please. So can you.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 10, 2011, at 8:55 PM

With the "clean slate", I don't think rr3 got to see or respond to my last questions....

rr3, you sound like u must be a preacher? Regardless, I have a question for you: Do you believe that had you been born to Muslim parents in Afganastan that you most likely would have been a Muslim? If so, do you think your life after death would put you in a place equal to where Christions end up? Just ask'n?

-- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Apr 10, 2011, at 9:10 AM

God's Outrageous Love

http://www.godandscience.org/love/outrag...

Our reward will be in heaven not on this earth.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 9, 2011, at 12:29 PM

Why are Christians So Stupid? - Does the Bible Teach Blind Faith?

"The Bible encourages people to use their minds. No other "holy" book tells its readers to actually put what it says to the test. Ultimately, God wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth of His salvation through Jesus Christ, so that they may spend eternity with Him in the new creation."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 4, 2011, at 8:50 PM

Well Cheetah, in addition I think it is hunky dory that secular humanists, and other non believers in God have a right to congregate in fellowship, as do Christians, Bhuddists, and others who follow various paths. There are some, just some, of that group who have wrapped their non believe into an elaborate system that they practice, much as others practice religion. Hey I'm not sold myself on the Religious Scientists for instance, but whatever floats your boat. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 2, 2011, at 10:56 PM

SC some people just aren't believers in God in any circumstance. I know one person very, very well who in the darkest of hours could not bring himself to pray to a God he did not believe in. I think that if in an attacked fox hole that person would not have reverted to prayer because for that individual hypocrisy is a moral taboo.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Apr 1, 2011, at 11:06 PM

Eric the clean slate is kind of like being born again. lol

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 1, 2011, at 10:22 PM

I don't know SC but if I was in a foxhole with bullets flying over my head I would be praying to somebody. Maybe these people have not actually experienced a real foxhole with real live bullets.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 1, 2011, at 10:21 PM

Kinda like what Jesus did, does, and will do!!

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Fri, Apr 1, 2011, at 9:47 AM

Clean slate.

-- Posted by Eric Crump on Fri, Apr 1, 2011, at 9:00 AM


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