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Speak Out [religion] November 10, 2010, to January 5, 2011

Wednesday, November 10, 2010

This forum is for discussing religious issues. The same standards of behavior apply as are spelled out on our home page in the introduction to Speak Out.

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What is this "archaelogical" evidence you speak of. Is it something from outer space?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Jan 6, 2011, at 7:30 PM

Prophecy Schmophecy. Self-fullfilled maybe. Man made rapture, sure I'd by that. Other than that not so much.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 3:46 PM

What was the origin of Greek Mythology and why should the bible be taken any more seriously than Greek Mythology?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 2:26 PM

What is rational about a supposed adult believeing in fairy tales?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 1:56 PM

JHH,

Now you are gonna tell me how to post? I don't think so. This isn't your personal pro-religion blog where you get to make up the rules.

I'll post how I want when I want.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 1:28 PM

JHH,

Every fiber of your being believes in talking serpents, the willful parting of seas and any number of garden variety "miracles" and you still have the nerve to accuse others of non-critical and non-analytical thinking.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 11:45 AM

JHH,

So basically you consider a different point of view an attack?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 9:59 AM

Interesting bible reading from the Book of 2nd Thessalonians 6-15. Notice the last 2 verses. If people do not opey this then do not closely associate with them so they are ASHAMED and do not hate them for they are a brother therefore you should admonish them as a brother.

6 But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life and not according to the tradition they received from us. 7 For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you, 8 and we did not eat anyone's food without paying. Instead, in toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command: "If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat." 11 For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work but meddling in the work of others. 12 Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat. 13 But you, brothers and sisters, do not grow weary in doing what is right. 14 But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not associate closely with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Also remember the parable of the trhee men, one got 5 talents, one got 2 talents and one man got only one talent. Both the first two men invested and worked the money and double their money. And was told that they did a good job and that they would be put in charge of many things. The last man dug a hole and hid the money and did not use it and he was told that he was evil and lazy. Upon the 3rd mans excuses for being in fear of the master the master took his talent away. God even likes capitalism. lOL

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, Jan 5, 2011, at 12:10 AM

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Let me re-phrase it. I have an inherent distrust of humans in terms of wheter we really know all we think we know. Be it religious or otherwise.

I can admit I don't have all the answers and when my head hits the pillow tonite it will do so with a clear conscience. Will yours? Will you worry yourself to sleep wondering if you will go to someplace that may or may not exist? I refuse to live this one life that I know I have worrying about another life that I may or may not have.

Ask yourself this. If the pope gets sick should he receive any medical attention? If so why? Oustside of pain management should anything be done to prolong his life? If so, why?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 10:33 PM

I am a good person. Believe it or not, I am kind,caring and compassionate.

I have an inherent distrust of humans and If I'm to burn in hell simply because I didn't buy into every relgious doctrine, command or rule then I would never have made it to heaven anyway. So, I don't worry about it.

Perhaps maybe you happened to pick the wrong cult or said the wrong thing.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 4:07 PM

Wtf does your recent post really show that you are the person you say you are? John and I are sure of our place in heaven but it seems to me you may not be sure where your place may be. I think I would worry about it. How can someone be kind,caring and compassionate and have an inherent distrust for mankind?

Just wonderin'

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 9:13 PM

Wtf that was easy!!!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 8:32 PM

JHH,

With that post I was being sarcastic. It was a follow up to a post I made to rr3yvo. I would be happy to give you my defintion or sarsasm if you like.

You said this: "Believing it doesn't make reality".

Wow. Maybe that should be my definition of christianity?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 1:56 PM

Hebrews 10:25

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (NIV)

so in order to meet this suggestion (not a commandment and not the words of jesus) do you think we must meet in churches or in arenas or under some umbrella such as a denomination or sect? what if cheetah and i wanted to go to the lake with other believers (not that he would do that) and while we were there we got the guitars out, sang some "christian" music, and got into a discussion about the faith - would we be "assembling together" ???? come on man - or woman - where's the liberty in christ that is so much a part of the new testament (though not so much in modern churches)?

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 1:25 PM

JHH,

I never promised you anything regarding my definition of a christian, you just demanded it ad nasueum.

So I did give you my definition of a christian which is Winston Chruchill's definition of a fantatic:

"One who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

I guess you didn't like my definition so you accused me of breaking a promise I never made.

Just like organized religion you have manufactured your own reality and have reinforced what I have been saying all along. Thanks.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 1:10 PM

If we believe it, it will be true.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 12:16 PM

rr3yvo said:

"Wtf I suppose you can make the definition of a Christian anything you want but that doesn't mean it is correct".

That is very true! Excellent point! Isn't it ironic though that to define something however we want without it being necessarily correct could apply to almost any scripture in organized religious?

Organized religion kind of wrote the book on that whole concept didn't they?

Wow! You just blew my mind!

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 11:58 AM

Wtf I suppose you can make the definition of a Christian anything you want but that doesn't mean it is correct. The following link is a pretty good definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 11:46 AM

JHH,

Since you demand my definition of a Christian I'll say it is the same as Winston Churchill's definition of a fanatic.

"Someone who won't change his mind and can't change the subject".

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 9:50 AM

"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

(Luke 14:11 NKJV)

His words - not mine ...

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Jan 4, 2011, at 9:42 AM

testing

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jan 2, 2011, at 5:42 PM

Christianity taking over planet?

Evidence suggests it's fastest growing faith on Earth

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=245201#ixzz19...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jan 1, 2011, at 6:48 PM

The New School Prayer

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/n...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jan 1, 2011, at 1:33 PM

Human Being Recall Notice

http://www.link4u.com/recall.htm

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jan 1, 2011, at 1:27 PM

This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it.

( Psalm 118:24 *NKJV )

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jan 1, 2011, at 5:37 AM

Wtf I will pray for God to give you understanding.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Dec 31, 2010, at 9:29 AM

Yes, I guess my love is conditional.....just like gods.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 31, 2010, at 7:24 AM

Would you,under any circumstances, ever subject your children to the kind of punishment that god would inflict if you failed to live up to his expectations?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 31, 2010, at 12:30 AM

Wtf I don't think your children have to earn your love. You love your children unconditionally no matter what they do they will always be your children.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 9:13 PM

JHH,

Answer my question first. Do you have children? Do you love them? What kind of conditions do you place on them in order to earn your love?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 7:58 PM

Wtf God's son Jesus died for all of us. He actually carried the sins of everyone at the moment he died, God could not even look at him at that moment because of the sin. All this was done so we could be forgiven, but it is up to us. God loves everyone of us and it doesn't matter if we are good or bad, but we make the decision whether we make heaven or hell our eternal destination. I trust you are a good person and if you said you were a christian I would have to believe you because I don't know your heart, God does.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 5:55 PM

JHH,

One other question for you.

Do you have children? Do you love them and if so what sort of conditions must they meetin order to earn your love?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 4:32 PM

That's right JHH,

If everything you say is true then I'm not sure that he is worthy of my worship. There, I said it again.

If he is that punitive and petty for what amounts to incredibly trivial matters in the grand scheme of things, then no, I don't care to join his little christian country club in the sky. Besides, I suspect it's all B.S. anyway.

I'm not saying there is no god but I really call into question that things went down the way christians or any of the other myriad of current religions think it did.

I am a good person. Believe it or not, I am kind,caring and compassionate. By all accounts it seems as if I'm even less of a snot than your god as you describe him. If I'm not good enough for your god, then he's not good enough for me. It really is that simple.

I have an inherent distrust of humans and If I'm to burn in hell simply because I didn't buy into every relgious doctrine, command or rule then I would never have made it to heaven anyway. So, I don't worry about it.

For your sake JHH, I hope your right. I would hate for you to get all the way to the gates of heaven only to find out that for all of your bloviating, posturing and preaching that you still didn't make the cut.

Perhaps maybe you happened to pick the wrong cult or said the wrong thing. Maybe just because you thought the wrong thought or ate the wrong food. It might even be your haircut. Seems like just the kind of cruel joke a mean and punitive god might pull.

So, if you do end up in hell, look me up. We'll have a hot beer and I'll keep the light on for ya.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 4:07 PM

JHH,

One more thing. I really don't think you have any room to call the arguements of others "weak."

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 2:47 PM

JHH,

I submit that I have lived my life every bit as moral an caring as you probably profess to be. If I am to be punished because I didn't join a particular cult and eat up thier particular flavor of pablum then I don't feel that this diety is worthy of my worship.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 30, 2010, at 10:45 AM

JHH,

Roman soldiers were'nt medical professionals.

Throughout history it has been very common for someone to be thought dead when they weren't.

I'm just sayin......

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 8:12 PM

JHH,

My definition of a Christian? I don't know. You?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 8:08 PM

JHH,

Maybe. But then again maybe he wasn't really dead.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 10:34 AM

rr3yvo,

Isn't all, or a least most of the world's religions all based on some sort of "payoff" in the end? That particular "payoff" is just conjecture and speculation. This is true no matter how much faith one has or how much they have convinced themselves they will win the end of life lottery. So yes, I believe all religion is theory.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 9:22 AM

Is that really what you believe wtf?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 6:05 AM

Yee Gads!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 29, 2010, at 12:53 AM

rr3yvo.

Ok, all religion is theory.Nothing more nothing less.

Is that specific enough for you?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 11:00 PM

It's not interpretation Nana it is in the bible. Of course you may have an interpretation different to what the bible actually says.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 10:22 PM

Wtf it would be nice if we had some earthly idea what you were talking about. Please be specific man. I don't think what you are referring to has anything to do with the old or new testament being a theory. Beam me up Scotty!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 8:18 PM

JHH said:

" they are trying to create a new theory to their already weak theory".

Is that anything like the "Old Testement and New Testement?"

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 8:03 PM

Nana just keep saying that hoping it will come true. I know what my faith is and I will speak about it regardless what you believe or whether you believe it. That just further proves that God gave us free will to listen and believe or NOT!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 7:58 PM

Is the Bible Really the Word of God?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 7:39 PM

You are wrong too Nana, sorry.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 7:22 PM

News come on over to the religious blog before we get accused for getting too religious in the political blog. News one thing you are wrong about I am qualified as a born again believer to dispute yours or anyone else's interpretation of the bible if it is wrong. The problem with unbelievers is they think they can interpret the bible instead of just study what it really says. The problem news is you don't believe because of lack of evidence that you refuse to see, but yet you put your faith in man with no evidence. Because of faith I can believe the bible and what it says I don't have to interpret it to make it say what I want it to. As for Muslims and the Koran there are some questions I would like to ask them.

Questions for Muslims

http://carm.org/religious-movements/isla...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 6:54 PM

JHH,

The Yahoo story you cite says the teeth are extimated to be 400,000 years old. While that would make a difference with the current "theory" of evolution, I'm sure that real scientists would have no problem accepting that if the teeth are indeed human.

It probably cast even more doubt on any biblical explanations as to the origin of man than it does on the theory of evolution itself.

It may indeed create cause to re-examnine the timeline of the current theory of evolution, but like I said I'm sure real scientists would welcome that.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 4:38 PM

JHH

Genesis said we "came from dirt." I don't know about you but as far as I'm comcerend dirt is "non-living."

So how can one theory be any more absurd than another?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 28, 2010, at 10:02 AM

Funny how what works wtf please explain.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Dec 27, 2010, at 11:08 PM

Yep,

That crazy "evolution" sounds about as implausible as abosolutley anything in the bible.

Funny how that works ain't it?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 27, 2010, at 10:25 PM

Eugenie Scott Endorses Discrimination Against Darwin-Doubting Scientists

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/eug...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 26, 2010, at 6:50 PM

Post Synaptic Proteins Intolerant of Change

So the evolutionary narrative, as usual, must believe that the biological world underwent radical, unheard of levels of change, though mysteriously today such change is not tolerated. All the while luckily creating an astonishing world of biological wonders.

http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 26, 2010, at 6:48 PM

America's global leadership imperiled by weak families

Sexual dysfunction, divorce, out-of-wedlock birth depriving kids of stable homes

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 26, 2010, at 6:40 PM

THE GREATEST Gift

The greatest gift at Christmastime

Is one we all may give -

A friendly smile that helps to make

Life easier to live.

A kindly thought, a helping hand,

To show someone we care

And let them know how much it means

For us to have them here.

The greatest gift at Christmastime

Costs not a lot to buy -

It's being a good neighbor

As days and months go by:

It's offering a shoulder

When someone needs a lift,

And so I pray this Christmas Day

That this may be your gift!

Poet, Grace E. Easley

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Dec 25, 2010, at 10:20 AM

Zeke I don't think any of the three persons of the Godhead are more important than the other but they each have a specific purpose. Jesus said he would send one greater than him which is the Holy Spirit. We were not asked to worship him but to accept his indwelling in our hearts to guide our lives.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 7:41 AM

jhh

one final time - yes, i believe whole heartedly in the trinity - it is a major teaching of the bible - we see it demonstrated throughout the old testament as well as in the new. i don't know what you are arguing - or why - and it doesn't matter. the trinity is not all that easy of a concept for people to grasp - it is taught that the father , son and holy spirit are separate but equal parts of the triune godhead - do you believe that? if so - do you worship the spirit with the same worship with which you worship god the father and god the son? many people who shout worship jesus and worship the father completely ignore the third person of the godhead - why is that? why do you try to make it even more complex than it already is? father, son, holy spirit - the trinity - the triune godhead - end of story.

keep on shadow boxing if you like. i've told you what i believe - and what i believe will surely get me into the presence of god - here on earth and after this life.

shalom

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 3:04 PM

Personally, I didn't need the Bible tell me that abortion is wrong. I believed this long before my current belief in God.

As far as gay marriage, I have no problem with a gay couple having the same rights as a straight couple. Morally, I don't approve of it, but, up to a point, I don't think morality shouldn't be legislated. As I've said before, it is not the duty of Christians to make non-Christians live by Christian standards. It is their duty to be a witness to them in hopes of converting them to Christianity. Only then do they have any right to tell someone else what their morals should be.

Revelations 21:8 has a long list of different types of sinners from murderers to liars. Guess what, the ultimate penalty is the same. All sin is wrong and everyone has sinned. Christians have simply asked forgiveness in the right place.

-- Posted by Philemon on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 8:25 AM

eric -

did i get zapped - wasn't there a post about jesus being a prophet, visionary, etc?

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 8:23 AM

jhh -

you make my point with your quote of luke4:7,8 ..

"So if you worship me, it will all be yours." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" (Luke 4:7,8)

you basically quoted satan and attributed it to jesus - or that is how it would appear. grabbing scriptures out of context is never a good tactic.

to believe in the triune god - father, son and holy spirit as revealed in scripture - does not preclude the understanding that christ was sent by the father to do the will of the father and returned to the father and that he (jesus) sent the holy spirit to continue the work of the father in us and through us after he ascended to the father where he now ministers and intercedes on our behalf in the presence of the father. mix that up and jumble it up all you want - but it's scriptural nonetheless. now - i'm finished with this lunacy.

may god bless us every one

and merry christmas to all

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 8:21 AM

Around, and around, around we go.

Chasing our tails doesn't make it so.

You show that, and this I show,

I know this, and that you know.

This is wrong, and that's fine.

My portent, or just your sign?

I made up this little rhyme tonight as I thought of all of us who post on this religion blog. The only thing I have truly learned here is that when one says something with conviction it often means that many others are convicted. It seems most of us can't escape being judgemental despite nostrums such as "judge not lest you be judged", and "to each his own".

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 1:34 AM

The bible condemns homosexuality? So what?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 9:43 PM

The Biblical Design for Human Sexuality

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/se...

The Condemnation of Homosexuality in Romans

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ro...

The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Corinthians

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ho...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 7:17 PM

atheism is a non-prophet organization (chuckle - chuckle)

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 3:05 PM

Many who want to ban gay marriage feel that way because of a their religious convictions. A ban or law is legislation it not? Let's not even get started on abortion.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 1:58 PM

jhh

and no - i am not a jehovah's witness.

just a humble servant of the most high god. a bondservant of the lord. least of the least. sinner saved by grace.

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 1:42 PM

jhh

you are quoting someone else with all the questions about why god created someone to worship him - not me.

thanks

just sayin - and clearing things up a bit hopefully

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 1:40 PM

I don't have a problem with any of it until such time as the religious may want to force thier views on others, sometimes via legislation.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 9:01 AM

It's all based on threats. To me there is something inherently wrong with that. The bible says a lot of things yet there are many things in the bible which supposed christians choose not to follow.

Why is that? Who makes those decisions? Is it freewill perhaps?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 7:20 AM

The bible tells us wtf that there is only one way to heaven that is through Jesus. Accepting him as your personal Lord and Saviour. You have the free will to believe that or NOT. Your choice. No coercion nothing forcing you. You can't earn it. So your statement is correct good people can go to hell.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 6:13 AM

Ok,

Freewill. Blah,blah,blah. What is so noble about giving a creature freewill only to punish them if they don't chose the way you want them to?

It's like if you have an ant farm, you take off the lid and crush the ones who dare escape even though you knew that's exactly what would happen.

They could have chose to stay inside the farm but you opened lid, thus giving them freewill.

Squish.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 5:21 AM

Worship is a way to say thank you? I thought is was purely to avoid eternal damnation.Isn't that the well known penalty of improper or lack of worship? To that end what kind of being meters out such harsh punishment for these infractions and why?

Is it possible that a person can walk this earth and devote their whole lives to helping humanity,never hurt a soul with never a foul word said yet somehow doesn't manage to become a christian. This person will burn in hell?

If that's the case it raises some truly interesting and disturbing questions about god.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 5:13 AM

Has the bible "evolved"? or "devolved" in some cases?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 10:36 PM

JHH,

Why does god feel the need to be worshiped by the likes of us? Why does such a powerful being have such low self esteem?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 10:34 PM

Well John,

You ask what I think of microevolution...

I think of microevolution the same way I think of the number 5. Both are facts. 5 is supported by the physical evidence. 1 stick, add another, add another, add another, add another and you have 5 sticks. 5 is 5 no matter how you look at it, and it remains 5.

As to how I feel about the number 5...well I like it just fine. I find the number 5 to be a rather convient number, its a prime number, and its a useful number.

Likewise, I guess I like microevolution just fine. After all, it helped get us this far. It seems pretty useful...especially in medicine...and its interesting to learn about. Most of all, like the number 5, microevolution is a fact and it is what it is.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 10:05 PM

JHH,

That's some incredible circular logic you got goin' on there.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 7:32 PM

JHH,

Why is he due it?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 7:30 PM

Oh come on John,

The "Alien Intervention Institute" does not even exist...lol.

That video was a saterical look at how the creationists prefer to replace the lab with the courts in an effort to skip those requirements between hypothosis and peer review confirmation.

...and ya gotta admit John, it was a funny video...

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 6:49 PM

"Poll: More Americans believe humans evolved without God"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/poll-...

Of course...believing that magic is real in the 21st Century is just plain silly superstition.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 5:37 PM

I have a question. Why would an omnipotent god create a fallable being then demand they worship him. He then goes on to punish those same fallable creations for being fallable. Why is god so needy? Why is he so needy that he created us soley to worship him? Is it hubris perhaps? Then again maybe it's just sadistic. If I were gonna create something to worship me I could certainly do better than us.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 2:54 PM

cheetah -

(or any other non-religious believers out there)

before you leave the room for good - after the first of the year i am considering starting a once a month get together for "non-church-going" christians - in a home somewhere around marshall. guitars, snacks, a little word and some prayer. a home fellowship kinda like the new testament believers did. do you know of anyone who might consider hosting or attending such a meeting?

just askin'

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 2:15 PM

okr

without getting too much into the meat of your question(s) - i would like to clarify something. your question included something about worshipping jesus - and i want to say that true christians do not worship jesus - nor was that ever his intent - he came to reveal to us the kingdom of god, to show us how to live, and to point the way to the father - whom we are to worship - if that makes any sense to anyone. again - true christians are not worshippers of jesus - they worship god the father to whom they are lead by the son, jesus.

hope that makes sense.

be blessed -

just sayin'

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 2:01 PM

JHH,

Then what is Easter for?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 10:34 AM

Happy Holidays!

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 6:22 AM

Jesus Christ is the reason for the season. Merry CHRISTmas!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 10:58 PM

There is a wise message that I always look forward to hearing this season of every year.

GOOD GRIEF.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 6:23 PM

That's right Nana.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 5:19 PM

Sounds like a good idea Nana I believe we should practice what we preach.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 8:37 AM

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

( Romans 8:16 *NKJV )

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 7:49 AM

Seems those that don't want the truth want it terminated. The truth will always be attacked and the lies lifted up as gospel. Those that attack are unsure of their faith or if they will go to heaven. We can tell them over and over but they will refuse to believe it. I will profess and defend my faith and you can believe it or not that my friend is our God given free will. Exercise it wisely.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 6:44 AM

so you dont agree with JHH or whomever you are accusing of having sole ownership of this forum so you want the forum terminated? LOL Nice... typical... entertaining... amusing

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Dec 18, 2010, at 11:01 PM

Thank you for your comment JHH.

I am good as is. Included in that "as is" is my gratitude toward all those whom, for whatever reason, express what they believe is their best wishes toward me. It is especially appropriate at this time of year.

My best wishes for you, and yours. May you have a wonderful Christmas, all the season through.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Dec 18, 2010, at 12:23 PM

From an early age I was blown away by the example of Jesus Christ, and not at all concerned whether he was man, or myth, to say nothing of whether, or not he was a god.

Most of my life almost all that I have earned of a pecuniary nature has gone to the benefit of others, in a large portion that is because of the illustration provided by Jesus, though I can not overlook some other things that have lead to my personal mind set that has never placed value on the accumulation of material wealth.

I am comfortable in my elder years because of my love for my partner, who I wanted to assist in assuring her comfort, particularly after I am gone.

I am not a Christian, but I truly believe that I have followed what I percieve to be the truths provided by the example of Jesus all my life.

To the Christians who write on this blog I pose the question, is it not enough that my actions have followed the lessons of Jesus? Am I less than you, and all other "Christians" because I do not worship Jesus, but believe that he was right because his way is the humane way to live one's life?

Just wondering.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 11:33 PM

The "church" is a business. It always has been and it always will be. That's not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is what it is.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 3:48 PM

sorry - one more thing.

cheetah - i sense that you are a believer but that maybe you have qualms about what some would call "organized" religion - brick-n-mortar churches with set ways of doing things and rituals and deacon boards and trustees and the such. what do you think is the answer - if i may be so bold as to ask - would it be home fellowship situations - or just the lone wolf tactic that so many believers adopt these days. i am asking because i think there has got to be a way to reach folks who have an aversion to traditional church services, structure, etc. sorry if this is too much or if i am overstepping any boundaries or personal bubbles.

anyway - back to the cave ...

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 9:58 AM

and hey - i could probably come up with a copy or two of the dead sea scrolls (in english, of course) if anyone would like to look at them. pretty interesting stuff, i must say. lots of cultural and ritual stuff in there - moreso than the new testament. gives you a good idea of life around the time of christ and before hand - like when the macabees were trying to overthrow rome and such. sorry - i'm feeling very talkative this morning. i'll go back to my cave now.

just sayin'

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 9:26 AM

not the beating your child with a rod - that's not what i called fun - but getting into scripture and such - i like it. makes more sense than calling people names, saying folks are not intelligent, and trying to evangelize when all the while driving people away from the faith. it's an old worn out cliche - but no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. go help someone who has lost everything in a house fire, or someone who just found out they are the third person in their family to be diagnosed with cancer in the last year, or someone who has lost loved ones recently, or someone who is facing christmas without a job, heat, or a meal. do that and then talk to that person you helped about how great it is to be a christian.

just a suggestion.

just sayin'

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 9:22 AM

related verses -

Proverbs 22:15

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

this is fun

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Fri, Dec 17, 2010, at 9:10 AM

I'm sorry. I've been too lax lately in monitoring this forum. Personal attacks are starting to overwhelm the debate.

-- Posted by Eric Crump on Thu, Dec 16, 2010, at 10:17 AM

JHH,

You hit the nail on the head. All religion is

"make it up as you go."

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 16, 2010, at 9:22 AM

General Introduction for Non-Believers: Part 1, Are Your Beliefs Consistent with Your Worldview?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 16, 2010, at 6:49 AM

JHH... I never said anything about salvation. I only was discussion man made pomp and circumstance and rules and artificial distractions that often cause splits and obstacles to individuals from having a relationship with God..... somewhere in the bible it says we should not consume alcohol infront of someone with problems with alcohol because we might cause them to stumble... so if the "churhieness" or the ceremony and pomp causes people to stumble or causes them to disagree on things that are really non-issues in regards to worshiping God then does that not make those churches and those ceremonies and activities ungogly?

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, Dec 14, 2010, at 9:52 PM

Does God know you?

http://oursovereignjoy.blogspot.com/2010...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Dec 14, 2010, at 7:11 PM

God know who you are too. And Rush. Don't forget about that.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Dec 14, 2010, at 6:26 AM

Wtf I could care less whether you are a he or she. Maybe okr was talking about you in his post from a few weeks ago. Annoying no I don't think that is the word for it. I just consider it your true colors coming to light. Any comment you make about me I consider a compliment. Does that annoy you? Keeping you in my prayers, I don't know who you are but God does. Thanks again and keep posting makes for good conversation.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Dec 13, 2010, at 5:29 PM

He? Who said I'm a he? Sorry, you don't own this playground. Do my posts annoy you? Good.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 13, 2010, at 8:38 AM

It is comforting to know there is only one God over us all.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him.

( ROMANS 10:12 *NIV )

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Dec 13, 2010, at 6:26 AM

I know what you mean John he has done this charade before but yet we are pesky. Where did you get the idea that this blog is only for Christians wtf. I would say it is open for reasonable discussion no matter if you are Christian or not. So please be reasonable. Discussion of the subject matter would be much better then personal attacks.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Dec 13, 2010, at 5:40 AM

JHH,

I don't owe you squat. I brought up Occam's Razor as a simple comparative note to Pascals Wager,period. I don't owe you any dissertaton about how the two can or cannot be compared. Mostly because I don't care.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Dec 13, 2010, at 5:27 AM

You mean this "religion" blog is only for Christians?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Dec 12, 2010, at 8:40 PM

I'll try another question wtf and see if you will answer it. If Christians are so pesky why even waste your time on the religious blog when you know Christians will be there? If I didn't want to be around Christians I wouldn't go to church. All I can do is pray that God will intervene in your life. After all if I am pesky then I am doing something so I consider that a compliment. They always say if nobody is talking about you then you aren't doing anything. Lets remember the reason for the season Jesus Christ.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 12, 2010, at 7:49 PM

I anticipated that wtf I would expect no less.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 12, 2010, at 7:32 PM

got a mirror?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Dec 12, 2010, at 6:32 PM

Wtf what is a pesky,overly righteous Christian? Why are they the problem? What kind of problem are they?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 12, 2010, at 5:03 PM

Christianity is fine. It's those pesky,overly righteous "Christians" that are generally the problem.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, Dec 11, 2010, at 5:32 PM

wow... I have to agree with Nanadot on something, at least up to a point...

I think that we pay way too much attention to 'religious' protocol and pomp and circumstance and way too little time on the actual interaction with God at the personal/individual level. IF you can create a bunch of 'things' that you have to do while you are at church to somehow 'demonstrate' that you are a Christian I think that this takes away from the real ability of individuals to concentrate on doing REAL good and being a Good Christian because you are much too worried about kneeling at the wrong time or going against a man-made ceremony, tradition or activity or the like.

The whole concept that man can distort religion to make it political or to intice a group of people to break off and start a new sect or denomination seems somehow silly to me and if you cannot get along on the simple premise that you are gathered together to worship God and instead have to concentrate on minor, meaningless things outside of that simple activity then are you really 'believing in God or are you looking for a means to look down on someone or to judge someone?

I have seen churches break up because some people wanted to have communion AFTER the sermon instead of BEFORE. I have seen people isolated or ignored because they did not wear the 'correct' type of clothes. BUT, I guess that if you, as an individual, know what is in your OWN heart, then what other people think or do does not matter and you should not worry about what your Grandma or your neighbor or your community thinks. Each person should just live a good life and treat each other like you want to be treated and all of the 'decoration' or 'religious stuff' will not make a difference to you.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Dec 11, 2010, at 5:04 PM

No Nana it is a rant to suit your anger against God and the bible. Instead of discussion you take it out a context to suit you because of the bad experience with your grandmother that you blame on God. God does make us angry sometimes because we don't like his decision but didn't our parents make us angry when we were growing up when we didn't like their decisions?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Dec 11, 2010, at 8:29 AM

Sorry Nana I have trouble making good sense of your rants when you stray so far off the subject. I will keep trying though.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Dec 10, 2010, at 6:34 AM

Why get married?

Marriage was not instituted by man, but by God Himself.

http://carm.org/apologetics/womens-issue...

Contrary to what they want us to believe today the first union was Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 9, 2010, at 6:37 AM

Wtf I don't think my link to hate speech referenced Rush but I will consider your comments a blessing. God still loves you.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 9, 2010, at 6:22 AM

What is hate speech?

Pretty much anything that comes out of Rush's big fat blow hole.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 9, 2010, at 5:21 AM

Are Your Beliefs Consistent with Your Worldview?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Dec 8, 2010, at 11:01 PM

What is Hate Speech?

http://carm.org/hate-speech

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Dec 8, 2010, at 3:13 PM

I really liked Smokin' Cheetah comment about the "goodless" encounter.The F word is used way too much anyway. The Walmart guy is a sad case.

-- Posted by izaak on Sun, Dec 5, 2010, at 5:27 PM

SC your post just proves even after we become Christians we are still sinners. We still have sinful thoughts and we have to repent and ask for forgiveness. The man in your post don't know he is a sinner hopefully God will put someone in place to convict this man of his sin. Thanks for the story it always breaks my heart when children have to endure that kind of abuse and I probably would have wanted to do the same thing that you thought about.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Dec 5, 2010, at 3:52 PM

Merry Christmas.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, Dec 4, 2010, at 8:45 PM

JHH,

Whatever, dude.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, Dec 4, 2010, at 5:30 PM

Cheetah,

That is not surprising because faith is a very personal thing, it means something different to everyone. IMO, faith is the belief in something for which there is no discernable proof.

It's all good.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 8:10 PM

RE: Occam's Razor, and Pascal's Wager. Methodology, and logic do have their limits. A lot of Theists would jump to agree with that.

Further, they appear to give short shrift to the powers of the subconscious mind. The mind has an ability to store an infinite number of bits of information. When we encounter a problem the subconscious mind processes all those stored bits in an instant, and usually gives us an answer that is reliant upon the amount, and quality of the stored bits. Call it intuition, hunch, out of the blue, whatever. If the mind has a preponderance of stored bits that are true, the intuitive answer has a greater chance of being true. My "intuitive" answers have been validated time after time. If I have the time to do so, I usually check these answers, by formulaic procedure that may apply. Seldom has there been other than concurrence.

I have not solved the question arising from knowing that Razor, and Wager are stored bits in my mind. When I have that instant intuitive decision, may I feel comfortable that my mind has taken into account Razor, Wager, et al?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 7:52 PM

JHH,

Perhaps I used the wrong term. Instead of "theory" I should have said "Hypothesis"

Now,as to your conclusion that "I try to explain away things without much thought."

Really?, This coming from you? Explaining things without much thought seems to me to be the very definition of faith.

The whole Occam's Razor thing was a quick quip to chew on along with the subject of Pascals Wager, other that that I really don't care. I wasn't trying to "explain" anything. It was up to the readers to come to their own conclusions.

You are free to believe whatever you want. Don't wait for me to prove or disprove something for you. Do your own homework.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 4:20 PM

It was a simple comparison of theories. It doesn't matter if I believe in them or not. To be honest I had no intention of going that deep with it.

Did life spring from non life? Who knows.

The only thing we know for sure is that we for sure don't know.

You can have as much faith as your heart will hold and even manage to convince yourself that the origins of life as we know it all come down to very specific passages from an old book.

Hey, whatever make you boat float. However at the end of the day it is all nothing more than simple garden variety speculation. Nothing more,nothing less.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 12:40 PM

I have no idea how old Occam's Razor is nor was that my point. My point was that people may have just been naturally doing something that also happened to coincide with the most basic definition of Occam's Razor.

I don't doubt for a minute that you believe what you were told without question, because it easier.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 10:57 AM

JHH,

The point I was trying to make about Occam's Razor is that 3000 years ago, when people didn't posses he knowledge to explain the most simple phenomina, the would just immediately attach it to a god, or make up yet another god to lord over whatever it was. Why? It was the easiest way to deal with it. For them, the easiest solution was the right solution, ie. Occam's Razor.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Dec 3, 2010, at 9:22 AM

What?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 9:06 PM

Either way, it's all theory.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 6:28 PM

If I believe in God and he does exist then when I die I win everything if he doesn't exist I lose nothing, but if I don't believe in God and he does exist then when I die I lose everything.

Just sayin'

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 5:32 PM

Ok Reader,

It's all good. I do find it interesting in a way that Occam's Razor could almost be iterpreted as an answer to Pascals Wager. After all, when it comes to religion it's all about interpretation, is it not?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 4:19 PM

LOL WTF...I thought of Occam's Razor when I was writing about Pascal's Wager. Did I leave you out when I was speaking of others, and Pascal's? If so it was an oversight, not a slight. I am afraid I left out a lot of folks, Slater, et al whose comments I enjoy. I didn't intend it to be an honor roll of interesting posters, and it was not as far too many bright folks were left off the list.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 3:45 PM

Hmmm, Pascals wager, or maybe more appropriately

Occam's Razor?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 3:07 PM

Good goin JHH. I am just gonna lay back for a bit, and not say anything more about Pascal's Wager right now. Let's see who else cares enough to wade through it. If no one else does, then you, and I can go one on one. It will be more productive though if more are involved. I do have some opinions about it.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 1:37 PM

JHH,

Did you notice the questions marks? You said there should be exclusivity to this blog and I was just asking who it was you felt should be allowed in your blog.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 12:25 PM

fullness of time ... teenage girl ... carpenter ... rural setting ... holy spirit ... no room at the inn ... baby in a manger ... shepherds to announce the birth ... strange way to save the world ... wouldn't you say?

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 12:13 PM

"create in me a clean heart oh god ... and renew a right spirit in me ... cast me not away from they presence ... take not thy holy spirit from me ... and restore unto me the joy of they salvation"

the cry of every recovering pharisee

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 12:00 PM

hey cheetah

do you have an article posting somewhere that i need to know about? i must've missed something. let me know where to find it. would love to read it.

just sayin

zeke

-- Posted by zeke on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 11:02 AM

Hello, hello, hello ND. I didn't think anyone else was still up. I have been raging like an old fool on the political blog, but I have calmed myself down since moving over here to the serenity blog.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 12:18 AM

I have noticed from time to time, that comments have been made paraphrasing Pascal's Wager by various folk since the religion blog started. I am sort of surprised that no one has brought Pascal's Wager to the floor. I actually thought that maybe Nana Dot would have, or Mr. Xray if he paid any attention to this blog, or White Tornado if he paid any attention to any of the blogs these days, or News Across who I hope will rejoin us soon, or SC, or rr3, Philemon,JHH, or WTF, or CH....well I am just gonna stop, anyway there is a lot of bright folks talking here. Some that aren't is that pack of dogs that are running on other blogs, and such. (Red, Smart, etc.)

Anyway for now I am just going to put a link to it. I think it may make our discussions more lively. It may have the added benefit of making us more persuasive in our arguments, theist, or not. If you haven't read it before I think you will find it interesting. If you are like me, and have read it before, it is still good to refresh your memory. Anyway, lets read it, and get after it. Watcha think? http://www.iep.utm.edu/pasc-wag/

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Dec 2, 2010, at 12:15 AM

JHH: wha chu mean Willis?

What are you insinuating regarding Smokin Cheetah? Now don't take offense at my question, I am just trying to find out the basis for your belief.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 11:09 PM

JHH, I don't mean to criticize the questions themselves. Nothing wrong with them. It's just that I think NanaDot has answered directly and completely. When you keep asking again and again it starts to look more like badgering than sincere inquiry.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 9:15 PM

JHH Said:

"What the f---?

Really, what the f---. don't we have a political blog? for politics.

Don't we have a community blog? for the community

Then why wouldn't a religious blog just be for religion?

yes, I guess the religious blog is exclusive.

Who woulda thunk it?"

Exclusive to what? Like minded Christians only?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 4:08 PM

Sorry I bored you JHH. I am glad that at the least you chose a portion of a phrase that I coined a while back, (if far out of context) "I would rather sort sand into large grains, and those of little grains" to help you make your point. That tells me that you must place some value to how I use words, if not the points I establish. It took the edge off of your derisiveness.

May you have a serene day.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 1:19 PM

We are all shaped by our individual psychological makeup. For some of us it means that we have a broad approach to life's experiences. For others the result is seeing life, and it's experiences with a much narrower scope. It shapes our religious beliefs, along with everything else.

Hence we get a result on this blog wherein some are certain that there is only one true way, and all the rest are damned. Others believe that Christianity is not the only path to salvation. Some believe that salvation, resulting in a rewarded after life is no more than a myth. Others, with a deistic mind set, are awe struck by the wonder of all creation, and conclude that there must have been an original creator of such magnificence, but can not believe the labrynthian religious explanations of it all. I could go on, and on listing all the variances that religion encompasses.

It is my opinion that those who broach the argument that we are getting away from the concept of what a religion blog should discuss, are among those who see life through a narrrower scope. We could from this point forward debate, what is religion, until we are all dead. That, without even touching on the subjects as to which is best, most rewarding, and whether, or not there is one true religion.

For me, I would rather listen to the whispering of leaves caused by the wind, and I am not sure that in the end, that I would not get more out of those murmurings, than this continued babble of human voices, that are raising alarms, pleading, and threatening, sympathizing, and castigating. Is that preference of mine religion? Maybe.

The case can be made that my choice of talking leaves, provoked by the wind, is as valid, as choosing human voices provoked by a learned response to didactic.

Religion is a broad subject, and it is my belief that those who wish to narrow the scope of discussion of it on this blog should give consideration to others, even should it make them uneasy, angry, or impatient. Heck it might even be the Christian thing to do, but I would not want to start an argument over that.;)

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/definiti...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 12:35 PM

JHH said:

"So nana,

if yo subscribe to no faith, no dogma, etc.

why are you on the religious blog?'

Why not? Are you looking to make this blog exclusionary was well? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 10:01 AM

Good morning now for a more positive note.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart

and with all your soul and with all your

strength. These commandments that I give

you today are to be upon your hearts.

Impress them on your children. Talk about

them when you sit at home and when you

walk along the road, when you lie down

and when you get up.

( Deuteronomy 6:5-7 * NIV )

SC I liked your posts I think we could all learn a bit from them. Thanks.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Dec 1, 2010, at 6:34 AM

It's a great quote WTF, and to endorse it does not make you a Wiccan. Thought I might add that before you patiently explain again that you are not a Wiccan, (not that there is anything wrong with that, some of my best friends could be Wiccans). ;)

Jhh I believe there is enough room for a little philosophy in these pews. It is hard to entirely separate them anyway. If we keep narrowing the scope there will have to be as many blogs as there are fundementalist sects. No personal broadening of awareness results from hiding in those narrow confines.

Frankly I have personally always been a bit leery of dogmatism, but not of learning about various religions.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 10:34 PM

Just a wild guess here, JHH, but she's probably interested in religion. I don't think there's any requirement to be a card carrying member of any particular faith or dogma to talk in an open forum.

Is there some reason you keep pecking at NanaDot? What's up with that?

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 10:32 PM

My favorite quote is actually Wiccan.

"An it harm none, do what thou will"

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 8:56 PM

JHH, you said, "To ask one what they identify with is to hopefully ascertain their beliefs, life values, and if it is a faith built on proofs or one on emotion."

Why is it that you need to know a person's life values, and beliefs? Are you appointed to judge, are you anointed with some special license to brazenly ask the intimate details of anyone's deeply held convictions? Are you further appointed to ask even more when you have been answered?

Please don't say because God needs to know. You already believe that your God knows, therefore beyond satisfying your personal curiousity nothing is gained. I don't believe anyone owes you that.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 3:13 PM

JHH,

I'm not sure why you keep prodding NanaDot about her affiliations. Seems to me she's been pretty clear about her beliefs and her purpose. As I understand it, she is religiously unaffiliated. I don't think the answer will change just because you keep asking the question.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 2:43 PM

I don't post often on this blog, because for me at age seventy, my beliefs are a long settled issue. One of those settled beliefs is that it would be vain of me, perhaps even absurd, to think that a person of finite intelligence such as I am, has any business telling another they are wrong.

The one exception is when I believe that actions predicated on those beliefs of another, are causing harm to others. At that point I strive to stop the harmful action, but even then, do not endeavor to deny another that most intimate of rights, to believe as they wish.

Having said that my heart is warmed to know that there are others out there that have established similar personal values. We are in some ways a silent congregation, yet buoyed, as is all humanity, that we are not alone.

I am fortunate that my wife is one of those people. My good fortune is extended by a very few personal friends, and some who write on this blog.

Which leads me to say that I endorse, believe, and as best as I can practice, each of the principles that Nana Dot has brought forth in this recent conversation. Peace be with you Sister.

There are constant requests from others to put a name to what we are. Perhaps it is uncomfortable for them to not be able to place everyone in a niche, to not know where in the order of things we each fit. For me that is a quest without value as like the sky above, and the earth below no one remains the same. The percieved changes as one's perception changes. It is a constant shifting. Linearity of thought is an inadequate guide to all there is.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 30, 2010, at 1:20 PM

You seem to be knowledgeable about God and the bible but fail to see that there is one true God that created the universe and everything in it. We have two choices in life, we can accept eternal life with God or eternal damnation. Frankly I accept eternal life with God because I don't like the alternative. That's the beautiful thing about our creator we have the ability to make our own choices. He won't force us to accept him.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 10:21 PM

Nana after your response to John I am really sorry you feel that way and I know nothing I say will convince you otherwise. For those people all I can do is pray for them and leave it up to God because none of this is about me it is all about God. Good discussion though.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 9:21 PM

How do you tell if kindness is false?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 8:56 PM

Nana you're reading a bit too far into it. Could be a guilt complex I guess. I never directed the Marx article to you. I'm really sorry you feel that way.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 8:38 PM

Where did you get that Nana?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 8:30 PM

How Discover Magazine Carefully Keeps Readers in the Dark About Intelligent Design

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/how...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 7:37 PM

Karl Marx: From Christian to satanist

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 7:26 PM

Very good Nana you are more than half way there.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 29, 2010, at 7:00 AM

http://www.inthenameofallah.org/Who%20is...

Interesting reading even though it is not easy reading...

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Nov 27, 2010, at 2:50 AM

A Theological Test

How well do you know your doctrine?

http://carm.org/theological-test

At the end of the test there is a link to check your answers.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 24, 2010, at 12:16 PM

By the way rr3, I don't watch the show these days. It has become too preachy for me. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 24, 2010, at 12:41 AM

Well at least you read the link rr3, that is a start. It also may cause thought in your case that the show is not totally without redeeming value.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 24, 2010, at 12:36 AM

I don't know about chocked full okr the negatives may outweigh the positives.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 11:27 PM

By the way, the site to which I just provided a link is a Christian web site. You may be surprised at what it says, and at the risk of appearing overly optomistic, I must say, you may learn something.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 11:09 PM

To those on the right. "The Simpsons" is chock full of moral lessons. Even of the Christian variety. Read this if you dare sully your purity.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/simpso...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 11:02 PM

Er..not at the moment. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 10:59 PM

Agree WTF, and SC. I have no more to say on the issue.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 10:58 PM

OK reader,

You are correct but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out for it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 12:26 PM

Hey WTF lighten up.

You, and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That includes a strong belief in seperation of church, and state. However we need to be mindful that some people are so infused with religion that it is an impossibility for them to discuss politics, without founding it on religious principles.

I give you Pat Robertson as a prime example. Do I watch Pat Robertson? Absolutely not. Do I pay anymore attention to some of the religion soaked comments on the political blog? Nope. You may want to try that approach. Just saying.

On the other hand I defend your right to argue against inclusiveness. So do as you will. You too JHH.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 11:00 AM

JHH,

"If your'e so weary of religion, then why post over here ? Seems that going to a religious blog to propigate atheist or anti-religious comments"

You can call me anything you want, just be accurate about it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 8:49 AM

Come one guys and gals who cares whether religion is in politics or politics in religion. Quit whining if you don't like the topic of discussion so be it stick to the topic or post a different topic to see if anyone comments on it. All this banter lately is a bit juvenile we are all adults aren't we? Just calling it like I see it!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 6:30 AM

JHH,

When you present an actual fact I'll discuss it.

This is a "religion blog" where EVERYONE can openly express their opinion. This is not the "John Henry, only say what I want to hear about christianity and nothing else fingers in my ears na na na na I can't hear you religion blog".

I have never said I was an athiest. I have never said there is no god. Just because I question the facts,motives and tactics of ALL organized religion doesn't make me an atheist.

I have mentioned well thought out objections. They just weren't what you wanted to hear.

I have stated many times that I support you in whatever your PERSONAL beliefs may be but the keyword here is PERSONAL. If those beliefs infringe upon how another person chooses to live thier lives then I speak out about it. If that makes me emotional the so be it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 23, 2010, at 5:21 AM

Heard at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. "when I use a word it means just what I want it to mean, neither more nor less"

Courtesy of Lwis Carroll.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 11:58 PM

"OKR

The bottom line is that in their hubristic arrogance they demand, not only their rights, but insist that all others toe the same line.Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 3:13 PM

Seems like it depend on whose foot the shoe is on.

-- Posted by john henry's"

M'thinks you "seems" wrong JHH. I am not telling you, nor is anyone else that you can't have a legal heterosexual, matrimonial relationship. You are saying that no one can have a legal homosexual relationship.

In other words, I don't tell you what kind of relationship you must have, why do you insist on telling others what kind they may have?

Don't rightly seem fair that you can tell me what to do, but I can't tell you? Who made you boss? Shore don't seem very libertarian to me.

What in the world does that have to do with "whose foot the shoe is on"? It is what it is as I just went over again.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 11:41 PM

JHH,

One nation under god was added in the 1950's during the red scare. The mere mention of "a god" does not and never will equate to an established state church no matter how much you make think otherwise.

Actually if it were up to me I would tax the church just like every other business because that's exactly what the church is, a business.

Yes, keep religion out of politics.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 9:12 PM

JHH,

I do tolerate religion in that while I may choose not to participate I am also not trying to ban churches or your right to worship in those churches. What I don't tolerate is religion thrust upon me or anyone else. I believe in freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I also believe that when we start legislating from the pulpit, a church's tax exempt status must be revoked when they become politically active.

I'm not sure that you have any grounds to lecture anyone about tolerance.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 3:54 PM

It seems to me that the right, for some reason, just doesn't get it.

No one is challenging their personal right to not choose a single sex union. Nor does anyone advocate taking their right to pray whenever, where ever. They are generally left in peace to enjoy their choices on most issues, as long as they do not infringe on someone elses rights.

Yet they insist on intruding on the personal freedoms of others. No, you can not engage in a single sex union. No you can not be excused from listening to MY prayers.

The bottom line is that in their hubristic arrogance they demand, not only their rights, but insist that all others toe the same line.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 3:13 PM

rr3yvo,

Thank god for the ACLU!

Why do Christians have churches and why are those churches tax exempt?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 12:52 PM

The ongoing attempt to reverse Roe V. Wade and the ongoing attempt to criminalize gay marriage everywhere possible.

That's enough for me.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 12:49 PM

All I know wtf is that the ACLU in 1925 overturned a ban to teach the theory of evolution. Then in 1981 they successfully kept creationism from being taught as a "scientific alternative" declaring it unconstitutional. Then in 2005 they got a judge to rule that "intelligent design" was not science and teaching it would violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The ACLU started out with close communist ties and then broke away from that but seems to be a leftist organization in some respects. Seems that anything Christian or if it is in the bible is in violation or unconstitutional.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 12:46 PM

Lawdy, lawdy, lawdy.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 11:39 AM

I'm not sure that the ACLU is an opponent to Christian beleiefs and principles in general, but when those beliefs are thrust upon others the ACLU will step up to bat.

A person's religious views are fine in how they decide to live thier own lives, but when others are expected or potentially forced by law to follow suit, then I'm glad we have an ACLU to help keep things in check.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 11:31 AM

JHH,

What Archaelogical evidence, specifically.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 11:21 AM

A Reasoned Argument For Faith

http://www.godweb.org/reasonforfaith.htm

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 22, 2010, at 9:08 AM

rr3yvo,

Your scriptures not withstanding,I was not commenting to JHH as to wheter an idividual should or should not have faith.

That is each individuals choice. However, by definition faith is believing in something for which you can't reason. Rationality is reason and the act of reasoning is to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.

I just don't see how faith can be based on anything other than emotion. There's nothing wrong with that. We all make emotional decisions on a regular basis but to define faith as rational? I don't see it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 9:04 PM

Wtf it is impossible to please God without faith.

Hebrews 11:6 (NAS)

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Habakkuk 2:4 (NAS)

"Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 (NAS)

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 7:20 PM

JHH,

Other than words in a ancient book from people who thought the world was flat, how do you know that we all haven't manufactured our own gods?

In all reality you don't know but you do have faith.

Faith is defined as believing in something when there is no proof. You call that rational? How can it be anything other than purely emotional?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 6:28 PM

How about a blast from the past. Laaadies, and Gentlemeeeen, I give you the long banned JJGates speaking his own special outrage at hypocrisy, quoted by his own local Boswell, mr.curious:

I'll bump this up...couldn't of said it better JJ! Speak on!

while im on my soapbox...... i was watching the 10 oclock news and i seen where a homeless man froze to death and was found in the snow by a motorist and it almost made me sick. this sunday people will pack into church, donate a dollar or two, and they will pray for the homeless and pass 2 on the way home. but what if.....every sunday people took that hour and actually did some of these things they pray for? would any God you should ever worship not understand why you never went to church if you spent that time doing good? all that money collected around the world every day in the name of religion and all those prayers and a man can freeze to death surrounded by 1 million people all of whom had the means to save him. anyone interested in starting a group with me that doesnt talk and hope for the best but rather goes out and makes things happen? well i am and i dont care if i do it by myself.......so next time you find yourself praying for something that people themselves could fix or atleast make better, save it, go write a letter to santa or something.

-- Posted by JJGates on Tue, Dec 11, 2007, at 10:59 PM

-- Posted by mrcurious on Wed, Dec 12, 2007

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 21, 2010, at 12:27 AM

ND you old hippy, bless your peaceful heart. (Takes one to know one). :)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 8:05 PM

News,

It didn't sound like a metaphorical statement to me. After all, what are swords used for?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 6:13 PM

Yeah ya gotta be careful about those call to arms.

Sedition is a crime and yes people have gone to prison for it.

Now having said that, in no way do I interpret JHH's statement as any kind of call for insurrection against our Government. I think he clearly was referring to peaceful, political resistance which is the right of all citizens.

Now having said that, I don't think you would get far with that JHH. The Constitutional mandate for seperation of church and state has a mountain of Supreme Court precidents that make it very clear our Founding Fathers did not want the state involved in religion. After all, they had lived for years under the oppressive thumb of the offical state religion of England and in fact highly resented such oppressive measures. However, JHH, Big Religion does keep trying to legislate their religious beliefs and they keep getting smacked down by the Courts everytime they do.

We are a secular Nation and if we ever stop being a secular Nation then our great democratic experiment will be over and your life and mine will be very tightly controlled by Big Religion -- and it may not be the religion you prefer...

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 5:50 PM

Well JHH I see you did not bother to check ANY of the 13,000 entries where in conservatives were helped by the ACLU. You drew on ONE isolated case that was within your personal perview. One that may have not been within the usual pattern of cases that they take, and from your own description was more of a law enforcement issue. Nuff for you to stay with your unexamined position on the ACLU?

Come on man, you are better than that, and you know it.

Disappointing.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 4:40 PM

JHH,

Cry me a river. The poor,put-upon,tax exempt Christians. Saint John Henry, the Patron Saint of Victims.

First of all there are no laws that say you can't pray or display nativity scenes. Isn't that what tax exempt churches are for?

Deviants, or outside the norm. What do you specifically condsider a deviant? Would that be code for a Homosexual? Is our society's moral compass calibrated by the church? More specifically only the Christian church?

Then you said this:

"The "evil" of the Christians, in this country, never mandated Christmas Nativity scenes, or Public Prayer, or a law that protects creationism.

These were done by the desire of the majority.....not legislated

The time is coming to beat plowshares into swords."

To me that doesn't sound like self-defense, it sounds like a call to arms.

Maybe instead your'e looking forward to a man made,self-fufilling rapture? Perhaps a nice little religious war to cleanse the pallet? That way once all the blood has dried maybe we can deccide once and for all whose man in the clouds is the most loving and merciful.

"Do it in the name of heaven, you can justify it in then end."

-One Tin Soldier

-by Coven

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 4:19 PM

JHH,

That's a bunch of hooey and you know it!

What else other than a call to violence can "beating plowshare's into swords" mean?

Also,What exactly is outside the norm and who get's to decide what the norm is?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 2:14 PM

JHH enter "ACLU defends conservatives" in your search engine, and you will find over 13,000 entries.

I applaud you for recognizing the services that the ACLU provides conservatives, just as they do all other factions. Not many conservatives do.

I think it is an excellent idea for conservatives to send the ACLU Christmas cards, a small donation would also be appropriate if one can afford it.

With discerning conservatives such as you leading the way maybe consevatives will recognize that the ACLU is not the bogey man, and in fact will defend all impartially.

My hat is off to you.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 1:54 PM

Also, what qualifies as a "deviant"? You didn't answer that either.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 1:04 PM

JHH,

Ok, I'll ask again becuase you didn't answer the question the first time.

These are your words:

"The time is coming to beat plowshares into swords."

I'll ask again. What exactly do you mean by that statement?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 1:03 PM

BTW, what qualifies as a "deviant"?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 11:17 AM

Christianity at the end of a rifle barrel?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 11:16 AM

JHH,

"The time is coming to beat plowshares into swords."

...what exactly do you mean by that?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 8:50 AM

JHH,

Your are right and banning prayer and nativity scenes is silly but in today's environment it shouldn't be unexpected. What you are witnessing is the pendulum effect. For generations the religious community on the right has had a strangle hold on society and what we are seeing is some backlash as the pendulum swings just as far back to the left. In my opinion this is representative of the probelms we have with extremes on the left and the right in this country today.

Seems to me we would all be better served if we took a deep breath and tried to find our way back to the middle.

As a society, compromise is probably the best we can ever hope for and as a society we are sorely lacking in that department.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 7:34 AM

Okr I see a point to your way of thinking but don't let that keep you from making the right decision.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 7:00 AM

Actually most of these discussions raise only moot points. I have no problem what so ever with what someone chooses to believe.

However, if someone's religious beliefs creates a need for them to judge me or support legislation to dictate how others live their lives, then I have a problem.

I also feel that once a religious organization becomes a PAC, they should lose their tax exempt status immediately. Live an let live, That's what I believe Jesus would do.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 6:37 AM

Oh and this fact-check:

"ID vs. AI FACT CHECK 1/2"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSHGlyOhT...

and

"ID vs. AI FACT CHECK 2/2"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2W9LPYV4...

and this

"Intelligent Design Really Is Being Expelled!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXf8COiHM...

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 5:33 AM

John I thought you might want to have a look at these.

"Intelligent Design vs. Alien Intervention"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp86gsHsc...

"Intelligent Alien Intervention Institute"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7IRRiVUm...

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 4:55 AM

rr3: But you have to believe that, and as you are not infallible, because you personally believe, doesn't make it true. You have read the Bible, and YOU HAVE DECIDED. Another reads the Bible, and DECIDES NOT. That is no more than two fallible people weighing the evidence, and coming to different conclusions. Either could be wrong.

You made your bet, but you can't ever tell any one whether you won, or not. Neither can the other person. The dead do not speak.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 19, 2010, at 12:15 AM

It has nothing to do with me it is a promise by God and God doesn't break promises.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:59 PM

"Oh but wtf there is a guarantee of heaven if you accept Jesus. The bible tells us that, if you choose not to believe doesn't make it less true."

On the other hand rr3 I am telling you that just because you choose to believe doesn't make it true.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:50 PM

Oh but wtf there is a guarantee of heaven if you accept Jesus. The bible tells us that, if you choose not to believe doesn't make it less true.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:37 PM

Oh and John,

I never said a God or Gods or Godesses don't exist.

I said their is no peer reviewed evidence to support the hypothosis.

I am a skeptic and as such I require scientifically tested evidence that leads to that and only that conclusion before I will adhear to any extraordinary claim.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:26 PM

Oh and JOhn,

One can no more be a "Dawinist" than one can be a "Newtonist" or a "Einsteinist" or a "Hawkingist."

The scientific evidence of evolution which has passed peer review is readily available all over the net. I recommend you have a look at it.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:22 PM

john henry's hammer

I am not interested in disproving anything that has not even been proved in the first place. Attempting to prove a negative is irrational and I don't deal in irrationality.

The scientific methodolgy is only interested in proving truth -- it is not for the purpose of proveing a negative.

As I said, if you have testable, verifiable, observable, repeatable scientifically derrived evidence that leads to one and only one conclusion that your God exists and that he is the only God in existance, I recomend you submit it to a reputable scientific journal for peer review. I will be most anxious to view the results.

Until then, I remain skeptical.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:19 PM

john henry's hammer

Well John if you got it the first time around, I would not have to keep repeating it...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the burdon of proof is upon the claiment.

Asking someone to prove a negative is illogical and unreasonable.

You make the claim, you provide the testable, verifiable, observable, repeatable, scientifically derrived evidence, submit your experimentation methods,the results, and your quantitative methods to a reputable scientific journal for peer review and they will see if they can duplicate your results using the exact same methods.

Until you can do that, you have no argument.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 8:36 PM

rr3yvo,

What you said is true but it can also be said that there is no guarantee of a heaven either.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 6:14 PM

john henry's hammer

As I said, I require testable, obsevable, repeatable, varifiable, scientifically derrived evidence that has successfully passed peer review.

All that I see around me is easily explained by natural biological evolution of which there is a mountain of testable, observable, repeatable, varifiable, scientifically derrived evidence that has passed peer review many, many times.

I appreciate that you do not require such in order to be convinced, but I am a skeptic and I believe, along with the late Dr. Carl Sagan, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I remain skeptical.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 4:03 PM

Wtf I believe in God that is referenced in the bible. Blind faith I don't think so. Until you accept Jesus and become a believer you cannot understand that faith. You cannot the understand the promise of eternal life in heaven. Even as believers it is hard for us to imagine what it will actually be like. You probably have faith you will get up tomorrow but there are no guarantees for tomorrow.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 3:55 PM

archaelogical evidence?

Such as?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 1:08 PM

rr3yvo,

Then isn't it also possible that as a result of having "limited minds" we found the need to manufacture gods because we couldn't understand what was naturally happening around us?

Faith may be a wonderful thing for some but all to often it seems as if faith "evolves" into blind faith which in my opinon causes more harm than good.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 12:04 PM

Ok news lets say God gives us verified evidence that would pass peer review so we would believe. If we had that would we need faith? Potentially everyone would be Christian because we could put that evidence on display so everyone everyday would be reminded that God exist. Then we wouldn't need churches because everyone would worship God at work, school and home because there would be no doubt he exist. We would be like robots. All of us posting on here would agree and that could be a bit boring. You have to understand the God that created everything we see lives outside the dimensions of length, width, depth and time. He can only create something from nothing, something living from non-living. He is not controlled by the laws of physics. Our limited minds cannot fully grasp what God is like because we cannot imagine anything existing outside the physical laws we live by. We can't imagine what heaven or hell is like except what the bible tells us. Our main disadvantage is we can only use human terms to describe God and that will not do it. God has no beginning or end.

The following links will give some reference to what God is.

http://carm.org/who-is-god

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine...

http://carm.org/questions/about-god

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 11:39 AM

JHH,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your last post were you saying that those who don't proclaim their christianity are equal to satan?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 10:32 AM

john henry's hammer

Yeah all that is very interesting, but until I see at least one piece of observable, testable, repeatable, verifiable scientifically derrived evidence that has passed peer review that leads to one and only one conclusion that your God exists and that yours is the only God...I am not buy any of it.

Faith may be enough for you, but I require far more than that.

I remain skeptical.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 7:44 AM

Contrary to what you may believe Nana the bible is very accurate according to the original manuscripts that we have. Some translations are accurate word for word and some are paraphrased, those may say the same thing but are less accurate than the word for word translations. The KJV and the NASB being among the most accurate translations. Don't use errancy in translation as an excuse to not accept God. That's just what it is an excuse. Nana please do your homework before making claims that you know nothing about. Thanks

The bible is still the best selling book of all time.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 18, 2010, at 7:11 AM

Sorry for the redundant info. I should refresh my screen more often.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 9:29 PM

Had to be Jonathan Edwards ND. I picked the other guy, and got it wrong.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 9:27 PM

Jonathan Edwards Nan you're right Billy is not quite that old.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 9:06 PM

You're right news it did seem different when we were young. I think the church has strayed from what the bible says by adding or taking away from it to suit them. God warns us about that and I think we will be judged for that. I think when we lose respect and reverence for God's word no matter how slight it carries over into other things we do. If we don't keep a good foundation then any good wind will blow us off course.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 9:01 PM

Thanks JHH. Peace be with you brother.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 7:10 PM

rr,

Wow! I had a look at that poll. I think its sad how folks (and I think we are all guilty of this including me) seem to have lost their civility when it comes to respecting other folks faith.

I was thinking about how things were back when I was young -- you know back in the days of dinasours lol -- and I think we were a lot more respectful of one another's faiths back then. I was brought up Roman Catholic while many of my friends were Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, ect. We used to enjoy attending each other's Church services, and we never cared much that we were of different faiths.

How sad that we don't seem to see that kind of respect anymore.

Thanks for posting that interesting link mate.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 4:37 PM

rr,

I took the test. I scored 13 out of 15...which I guess is not too bad. Actually, I was surprised I did that well.

Thanks for the link. It was a fun quiz.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 4:23 PM

Poll: Americans of all faiths see a civility problem in U.S. politics

http://www.religionnews.com/index.php?/p...

Shows that faith and politics cannot be totally serperated. Maybe Washington needs seperate speaking rooms one for politics and one for religion, kind of like we have here. You think that would work?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 2:28 PM

rr3 I missed on two of them, four, and fifteen. Thanks, for the opportunity to correct erroneous information that I believed regarding the Jewish sabbath, which I believed started on Saturday.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 1:35 PM

JHH I have seen material on the same phenomena occuring. Frogs are another specie as well as fish that have become hermaphroditic. Another speculative cause is estrogenic materials being flushed into our waters.

No doubt we need to do a better job of stewardship than we are doing.

I suppose that we could ignore it, and say oh well, it is just adaptation to our environment, but that doesn't set well with me, nor does a defeatist lack of response declaring it is God's will.

I am not very comfortable with the thought that four, or five generations from now we may be talking about seven million hermaphrodites, instead of seven hundred thousand, to say nothing of other changes that will be eminently more harmful.

To Christians I say pray, and act. To the great unwashed such as myself I say hope, and act. If we all do it, and are successful in our endeavors we can worry then about whether to give credit to God, or instinctual response of the human survival mechanism.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 1:32 PM

Not that I have a hermaphrodite fetish, it is just that it is an interesting adaptation of living beings. It is one that occurs in species great, and small, animal, and plant. In some it is an adaptation that has caused species to thrive.

The reason I said that is because I think we miss the boat when we look at it as an affliction, rather than an adaptation.

Now, before this morsel that I have placed on the table is regurgitated, and devolves into Darwinism versus Deuteronomy, consider that it is palatable to those who feast on either menu; "God don't make no junk", or evolutionary concepts.

Having said that it seems to me that people of that biological difference from others, should be free to follow their hearts, and establish connubial, and matrimonial relationships with whom ever their hearts lead them to, whether male or female. Does anyone disagree with that concept?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 12:38 PM

I took this religious quiz and it is interesting, very general, nothing in depth.

How much do you know about religion?

http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-rel...

At the end of it you can see how you scored and the percentage of people that got the questions right.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 11:40 AM

Thanks news it does make me wonder how wise wisdon teeth is since I recently had to have one pulled. I don't think I became any wiser because of it except for the fact that if feels better to not have it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 8:53 AM

rr,

I was just poking you a little there mate.

It was just a little levity in an attempt to lighten things up a bit.

I am sure you know far more about your God than I do.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 7:07 AM

You're right taxedpayer that inspiration is the power of God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 6:42 AM

No news God can make no mistakes. Man does.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 6:40 AM

rr3,

You quoted Jesus answer about why someone might be born blind. "He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him'" (John 9:2-3)"

To me, that says God's power is adaptation. See, I've known blind people. Know one here in town. Their spirit and determination to live well in spite of an apparent handicap is inspirational to those of us who have sight.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Wed, Nov 17, 2010, at 6:25 AM

So rr...

Does that mean you agree that your God is imperfect and makes mistakes? After all, "His creations" seem to be wrought with imperfections and mistakes (such as the human jaw which seems to be way to small to accommodate those "wisdom" teeth).

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 11:01 PM

Okr I guess the short answer would be yes. I have not had a personal experience or known anyone with such a genetic defect so I don't really know how I would deal with the matter. Destruction has been brought on the earth because of human sin and we know after the flood people didn't live as long because of a changed environment which resulted in damage to the human genetic structure. The disciples asked Jesus, 'why this man was born blind? Was it because of his sins or his parents', Jesus answered, 'He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him'" (John 9:2-3).

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 10:22 PM

JHH 700,000 are personally concerned about it every day. Your choice to ignore a deviance of that many people?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 9:54 PM

rr3: After thought, did you get the impression from the commentator at your link that ultimately hermaphrodites should become the sex they feel that they are, even to the point of surgical alteration to support their percieved sexual identity?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 5:06 PM

rr3: As I had believed your link was a bit light on the chromosomal aspect of hermaphrodites. It appears that there are several variances.

I hasten to add that may have created no barrier to his rationale for his opinion.

http://www.biol.andrews.edu/gen/l7.htm

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 4:53 PM

"Church in Arizona protested because it looks like a mosque"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/churc...

When are these dummies going to learn that EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND A RIGHT TO BUILD A PLACE OF WORSHIP????

It really does not matter if it is Christian or Muslim...but this is what happens when folks let the Government and the conservative, mainstream media do their thinking for them.

Our Nation is in a sad state of disrepair.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 4:42 PM

Thank you for the link rr3. Appears that fellow does not believe the Bible addresses the issue, so each individual's rational thought process must suffice.

Not sure he is correct on the chromosomal thing. Makes me dig more. That is good.

By inference do you agree with the position given on your link?

By the way thanks for treating the question seriously. You percieved I meant it seriously.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 4:39 PM

Okr I don't know if this will answer your question but I think that the guy that runs this website does give good information based on what there is in the bible. Even though the bible doesn't address it directly.

http://carm.org/hermaphrodites

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 2:23 PM

So my friends who are Christian apologists, what say you regarding the conundrum of the hermaphrodite?

Is it a sin for them to have sex at all, with all, or only in certain circumstances? Should they have the legal right to marry whom ever they choose, whether male, or female?

Is the Bible instructive in this instance?

If not what does your rational mind tell you when you must rely on it, sans Christian message?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 11:14 AM

Thanks WTF, my fellow long time poster.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 10:13 AM

john henry's hammer

1.) There were lots of messiahs around in those days -- none of them corrected anyone for calling them that -- did that make them all God?

2.) I like going to watch baseball games too -- but I don't like playing the game -- is that hypocritical too? I like the sermons and the fellowship mate -- and it gives me a good opportunity to participate in charitable events.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 8:59 AM

OK Reader,

Excellent point about the hemaphrodite. How can they find love without public scorn?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 4:10 AM

john henry's hammer

Lol...first you interpret what you think the prophesy means...relative to what you think it fits and what you want it to fit...the you say "oh look! the prophesy came true!"

lol lol lol....

That won't work friend...but I admire your spirit.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 1:29 AM

Izaac I may have left the impression that I was taking a strident tone with you. My response was rhetorical, and not directed to you personally.

I agree that if there is a loving, and merciful God that hermaphrodites are God's gifts. However that answers none of the questions that I raised.

I have a severely handicapped Granddaughter that can only speak to me with her eyes. While it is tragic, especially for her, in some ways it has been a gift to me. It is bittersweet.

Many things can be gifts in one sense, but tragic in another, such as hermaphroditism.

I think that many people who are born hermaphroditic do not see it as a gift from God. It is also likely that some embrace their condition, and if of a positive, and religious nature do see it as a gift from God.

I suppose that it is apparent that I have raised these questions to see how those that feel homosexuality is an abberation, condemned by God, think that their God approachs this similar abberation, and to present it in a light, that may for some, expose the ludicrosity of homophobia.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 16, 2010, at 12:20 AM

God's gifts to whom Izaac? Each other? Any one of us? All of us? If hermaphrodites engage each other in a carnal relationship is that homosexuality? Is it heterosexuality? Is it both? The same questions arise if an XX, or an XY engages in matrimony, and connubial bliss with an hermaphrodite.

It is confusing.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 11:56 PM

Apparently they are God's gifts.

-- Posted by izaak on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 11:26 PM

All this stuff that God has to deal with about homosexual abomination, and then he makes hermaphrodites? What? Is he bored with us so he makes up challenges to himself?

Maybe God commands hermaphrodites to only hook up with other hermaphrodites, and then only if they are careful to match up their opposite parts?

What?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 11:08 PM

I wonder why God made hermaphroditic people? Some of whom appear to be men "soft to the touch". Some appear to be women. Does God give them an exclusive choice denied the rest of us, as to the gender they are allowed to fall in love with, and marry? Does God deny them union because of their birth difference? What is the lesson there? What is the lesson to the hermaphrodite? Born cursed? Is it at all possible that God made them that way to teach us all a lesson? What lesson?

Sure does get complex.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 10:50 PM

Thanks rr3.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 10:34 PM

JHH,

Was all that really nescessary?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 7:59 PM

john henry's hammer

You are correct that Jesus never, ever said he was God.

As to the rest, that is your interpretation.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 5:06 PM

izaak

Thank you for bringing up those important points.

We do know that nowhere in the 4 Gospels does Jesus condem homosexualtiy...not even one time.

We know his position on taxes at the time were that people should pay their taxes ("Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and give unto God what is God's").

-- Posted by news across on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 5:03 PM

Good point okr.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 2:31 PM

Is it just me, or is there really a slightly more mellow tone to comments on this blog than the political blog?

Could it be that Jesus, whether merely admired, or worshiped, has somehow softened the sound offs?

You for sure get different quotes when attributed to J. C., than when laying out the word according to Rush. ;) Less disdain, less pointing fingers at those who are different. It seems the only similarity is that those who quote either, appear to be certain, that the words are infallible.

Some may think, upon reading this "hey, that belongs on the political blog". If so, I reply that I have yet to see religous discussion that is not somehow intertwined with politics, on some level.

I would rather sit on a beach, and seperate grains of sand into piles of those large, and piles of those small, than to try to seperate politics from religion.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 12:07 PM

Jesus Saves

http://carm.org/jesus-saves

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 5:29 AM

Good analogy Izaak Jesus has love and compassion for each one of us. He still does not like sin but on the cross he died for each one of us. So if you define a liberal one that has love and compassion I guess Jesus would be. But what is a liberal today someone filled with love and compassion for their fellow man or someone out to buy votes? Remember Jesus had it in his heart he didn't have to buy votes he made the ultimate sacrifice so we could be saved by freely accepting him. I don't think any liberal can offer that gift.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Nov 15, 2010, at 5:18 AM

When news across suggested that Jesus "may have been the greatest liberal of all time", I started listing the "what would Jesus do" subjects. In spite of the fact that no one really knows what Jesus would do,we do know how he responded to the leper, to those who were hungry, to the prostitute, etc. We know Jesus responses to all were liberal. How would Jesus have responded to a young man who was gay? Would he refuse to allow him any church leadership and call his actions an abomination, or would Jesus welcome him just as he would any straight person? I think I know. Where would he stand on health insurance for the uninsured? Where would Jesus stand on taxes, would he favor the very wealthy or the less wealthy? So considering how Jesus would respond, it appears news across was right on when he stated "Jesus may have been the greatest liberal".

-- Posted by izaak on Sun, Nov 14, 2010, at 8:46 PM

Well Jhh,

I didn't make the cartoon nor do I think the catoonist meant any "irreverance" for the great humanist, Jesus of Nazareth, nor do I see any "irreverance" in the illustration of an important point.

Jesus lived very communally, sharing everything he had with others and sharing in what others had -- much the same way the early Christians did. After Jesus death when, primarily, Peter and mostly Paul (who never even knew Jesus) created the then small and obscure Middle Eastern religion called "Christianity," it was a requirement of the religion that one give all they owned to the Church to be used communally by everyone in the Church...much the way communists did some 2000 years later. I think without question Jesus and the folks who started a religion which centered around him after his death would clearly have supported socialized medicine. I don't think they or He would have supported a few folks getting rich off the suffering of the many.

Oh by the way, his last name was not "Christ" nor did he call himself that. That is another term applied to him by others after his death.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Nov 14, 2010, at 8:51 AM

Well John,

I think perhaps your objections have more to do with the fact that you don't like the point the cartoonist is making than the forum in which it is posted.

Perhaps its your conflicting political and religious views that are the problem.

I think if Jesus came back today its you conservatives who would quickly want to nail him to a cross.

I think Jesus would be very, very upset with the way you want to deny medical care to anyone who cannot afford it, the fact that you on the right want to keep allowing Big Insurance to make a huge profit from the suffering of mankind, and like the cartoonist, I think Jesus was the greatest liberal of all time -- he certainly would not agree with conservative political positions.

The cartoon is appropriate, covers 2 subject areas that overlap, and I think it says a lot about evangelical hypocrisy in America.

No wonder it hit a tender spot when you saw it.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 13, 2010, at 11:51 PM

Uh oh...

It looks like we have a spelling expert amongst us...lol.

I am in trouble now lol.

Oh John, sometimes you really impress me, friend.

You said, "But I guess to fellow believers faith and the walk should go hand in hand, although at times we stumble nothing says we have to stay down."

I like that John and I think for believers and non-believers alike there is a lot of wisdom in those words.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Nov 13, 2010, at 9:54 PM

Don't forget God is always around. Sometimes we refuse to see him. Enjoy!

This was a email sent to Tom.

The man whispered, "God, speak to me," and a meadowlark

sang.

But, the man did not hear. So the man yelled, "God, speak to

me" and the thunder rolled across the sky.

But, the man did not listen. The man looked around and said,

"God let me see you." And a star shined brightly.

But the man did not see. And, the man shouted, "God show

me a miracle." And, a life was born.

But, the man did not notice. So, the man cried out in despair,

"Touch me God, and let me know you are here." Whereupon,

God reached down and touched the man. But, the man brushed

the butterfly away ...and walked on.

The man cried, "God, I need your help!" And an e-mail arrived

reaching out with good news and encouragement. But, the man

deleted it and continued crying.

I have found this to be a great reminder that God is always

around us in the little and simple things that we take for granted

.... even in our electronic age ...

So don't miss out on a blessing because it isn't packaged the

way that you expect.

My instructions were to send this to people that I wanted God

to bless and I picked you, Tom. Please pass this to

people you want to be blessed as well.

Expect the unexpected...and Have A Happy Day!

---Author Unknown

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Nov 13, 2010, at 9:51 PM

JHH-- Just a suggestion--please spell protestant as I did. I do enjoy reading the religious comments and thought you would appreciate a spelling correction.

-- Posted by izaak on Sat, Nov 13, 2010, at 6:30 PM

Nana did I say that you never have to do anything good and decent or to be as hateful or as greedy as you want just profess the faith? You are missing it big time.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Nov 13, 2010, at 4:55 AM

john henry's hammer

I am sorry to hear of your late Uncle's passing.

I send my condolences.

I am sure your faith is helping you cope in this difficult time. That is one definate advantage religious folks have over those of us that are agnostic. Your faith that your loved one is waiting in Heaven for you brings you comfort during such times.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 8:10 PM

Any way you slice it, dice it, and spread it out on this table, negative comments directed at a specific religion show the negative and outrageous bias of the person posting those kinds of comments. But in the case of attacks on the Catholic religion, it's not that unusual, actually. Father Andrew Greeley has written much about anti-Catholic sentiment in this country - he calls it, and rightly so, "America's dirty little secret." And here we are with proof positive. I can't imagine continuing to post here.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 5:48 PM

Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation by grace. Other religions teach that you have to be really sincere, do really good deeds or works, or put forth a good effort for the right to be in the presence of God. All we need is the faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 4:48 PM

Good job John!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 9:18 AM

Jesus being part of the trinity was fully God before he came to earth while on earth he was fully human. The difference is that he was not born into sin because of divine conception and was sinless as a human.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 8:27 AM

Sounds like you have a good fellowship at the church you are attending news. I think the church should accept anyone into the congregation for fellowship as long as the church doesn't stray from God's word and become tolerant to sin to have good numbers. Some of the largest churches tickle the ears and make people think that no matter their lifestyle they are Christians. There is only one way to become a Christian, what religion you are doesn't matter. There are a lot of things in the bible subject to interpretation and even Christians can disagree on except the way to heaven there is only one way.

News I just hope your church preaches and teaches the bible and doesn't just tickle the ears.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Nov 12, 2010, at 8:23 AM

Yep, somewhere out there,

Jesus of Nazerath was a truly incredible human being.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 11:11 PM

Yes rr,

I have been a member of the Congregation for most of the many years I have lived in Sydney. I was first attracted by the beauty of the Cathedral and then my heart was won by the beauty of the wonderful Congregation there. They don't seem to have any problem with my being an agnostic so far lol, and I really like the fellowship. I am fairly active in many of the charity related activities and I enjoy many of the sermons.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 11:08 PM

Indeed, news across does have it right; common ground is where fruit shall be found. Hey, that kinda rhymed! I was even listening to a podcast earlier between a Protestant pastor and a Catholic priest, and the title of their discussion is "Common Ground". [However, I'll have to finish it another time, my attention was lost earlier.]

Yes, I will agree that Catholics may share the same viewpoint of other faiths. However, as the priest noted in the discussion I mentioned above, the Catholic faith holds that it possesses the fullest toolkit, if you will, of the means by which God's grace and Christ's love are shown to us, the keys to the paths to becoming saints. Citing the priest, he acknowledges that while this appears to be a blessing to the Church, the claim can be used as an indictment of the Church! With all those tools, with the fullest, most astounding instruction available to living as true Christians, anyone who claims to be Catholic should be oohing and aahing the world around them! To be a Christian is to be Christ-like; if we had even 1% of Christ's charisma, his ability to convince people that His way is the path of righteousness, then Catholics today would be turning heads, left and right.

Think about it! Think about how Christ, just being being himself and barely speaking any words, brought 12 men together, who otherwise would have been ordinary persons like any one of us: perhaps holding a faith, but not going down in history for leading others to a better communion with the Creator. How truly awesome He must have been! And if the global Catholic population was like that....hey, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now! :)

Anyway, yes, perspective does account for a lot.

Also, news across, citing your paragraph on how most Christians are good by doctrine and/or nature...sure, we're created by God, we better be good by nature! But tolerance doesn't spread the gospel. -->Please don't mistake my words; tolerance is good and should be a seed planted in us all and cultivated healthily, but mere tolerance is not what the Christian faith is about (nor many other faiths, I would guess, but cannot speak from knowledge there). But, your wisdom is good, like the wisdom of God, to build up humanity and not hurt each other by division. [Did you know the word "devil" means 'the divider'? At least that's what I heard a while back.] Also, your comment about having more in common than we think...isn't that something? That's something I recalled when coming to understand the Islamic faith; there's a few major differences, but so much of my humanity and that of my Muslim friends is alike! As-salamu alaykum!

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 10:09 PM

You are right news we need to find common ground. Until you said it I would not have guessed you were a church goer but you know I may not be able to go on you say so I may need some scientific evidence. Ha!Ha!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 9:04 PM

Judge Miss Marple

Jesus Christ will be the ultimate judge so you won't have to fret whether I am Christ-like or not. Because I am a Christian I have to be truthful to my faith even if that means pointing out where others have strayed.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 8:49 PM

oh and rr,

I knew you would be surprised lol lol.

Actually mate, if you knew me personally you would probably find there are a lot of things in my personality that you would like...and vice-a-versa.

People are complex and views on politics and religion vary, but there is more to you and me and everyone than just our faith or politics. Yes those things are important, but still there is a lot more to our lives than just those things. I think if we all look closely -- conservatives and liberals, Christians and agnostics -- we will find we have far more in common than we may think.

Sometimes when I find myself getting all wrapped up in political discussions and religion, I like to remind myself of 2 people in politics who were staunchly on opposite sides of the political spectrum but were also the closest of friends -- Fomer Speaker of he House, the late Representitive Tip O'Neil and the late, Honorable Senator from Kansas, Senator Bob Dole. Both Tip and Bob were asked once in an interview how it is they could be best friends given their political differences and both laughed and said, "there is a lot more to a person than just politics and we both love fishing."

These days we find a lot of Americans being polarized by their political and religious differences, and I for one think its high time we all put aside our differences and celebrate those things we all share together -- such as being good Americans who love their Country and their fellow man. In short, I think it is better to find common ground and work together to build a better future for all Americans.

I hope others will see the wisdom of that and join me in this endeavor.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 8:43 PM

somewhere out there,

I hope you don't mind if I weigh in on this subject.

You certainly have the right to your own opinion in this matter or any other matter, and you certainly have the right to state your opinion.

However, I must point out that many Catholics might say the exact same thing about folks of other faiths.

I guess it all just depends on one's perspective.

All I can say is this: I think most Churches and sects of Christianity do good things. Most Christians tend to be pretty charitable folks who are good citizens and obey our laws. All Christian sects that I am familiar with stress the importance of man treating his fellow man with kindness and love. That is a pretty good thing. So no matter what one's faith may be, I just hope they continue to stress tolerance of other beliefs while living up to the tenents of their own faith, and I hope they continue to do the good and charitable works that Christians are well known for.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 8:26 PM

Miss Marple-

We will all be judged...you and I can both agree on that. And I can boldly restate my objective opinion about how little the average Catholic knows of his/her faith. We may disagree, yes. But keep in mind that you are judging others here, as well... A little pot/kettle scenario here...

Christians, by the earliest reference to those who were given that name, were people of "the way". This way of life, Christ's way of life, was not of simply listening to others preach. Christians are called to LIVE as Christ and BE Christ to the world.

But, if you took my words to make light of religion, you have failed to understand me. Seriously, do not take offense at that, but you have, in all honestly, not understood my claim. I do not think little of Catholics; I strive not to think little of any human being. But to the extent that one does not put into action the beliefs he or she, by word, profess as truth...the Catholic population (indeed, the Christian population) is not succeeding. [Thankfully, Christ is our Victor.]

So as I have already given my praise to the Catholic faith as being worthy of study, as I believe it to follow most closely the lives God desires for us and from us...I'm clearly not belittling the Catholic or Christian faith. But again, I will stand by my claim that the majority of Christians are not living enough of their faith in the day-to-day.

'Kettle'

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 8:22 PM

Thanks, Eric. I had to ask, as I attempted to post twice around midnight, but didn't see anything then nor in the morning. Not sure what happened.

Miss Marple, may I ask your definition of a Christian? And how can you deduce that I, the claimant, am not a Christian? I realize my claim is far-reaching, but seriously...who really thinks that the average Catholic really knows his/her stuff?

Ok, so I'll take a step back and review my comment... What I mean is that most often, Catholics are just surviving off what is preached; the Catholic faith holds so much more than what the average Catholic takes in!!! This is hardly arguable! The latter sentence about lukewarm faith... Again, most Catholics are not on fire for their faith. If the average Catholic held paramount their faith to the extent the faith urges, a holier world we would then enjoy!

Yes, these are my personal thoughts, not something for which I polled the people of Missouri or anything like that. I know my comments are subjective, but considering the wealth of the Catholic faith, most Catholics aren't very spiritually rich! If you are of the few, then bless you, and pray for all others! I, myself, am of very limited knowledge of the Christian faith, but when I stand up in a crowd and speak with a greater understanding and firmament about the Christian faith, it's not hard to deduce that others are struggling as much as I am. As Michelangelo stated, 'I'm still learning.'

Miss Marple, please share how you determine if a man/woman is Christian or not, specifically how it relates to my claim against Catholics. [Don't forget, Christ called out his apostles when they showed weak or limited faith...]

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 7:20 PM

rr3yv0 - "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

I think that's more than sufficient. Perhaps you have forgotten that the very word "Christian" means "Christ-like." In making light of other religions - ANY other religions - you can no longer claim to be Christian.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 6:52 PM

News I am surprised!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 6:28 PM

Miss Marple I would like to know how you determine that a Christian would not make such a statement? I don't understand where that comes from. As Christians we are to point out things that are not biblical or not Christian it doesn't matter if they are Catholic or fellow Christians.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 6:18 PM

John,

It may surprise you to learn that I attend Church every Sunday. I am a member of St. James Congregation in Sydney. We have a beautiful cathedral there and it is an Anglican Church.

The Pastor of the Church I attend is well aware that I am agnostic and he is aware of my views of religion. Such views include a deep appreciation for the humanist portion of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a kind and compassionate man who genuinely cared deeply for the poor and downtroden, was way ahead of his time, and who recognized that the religious establishment of that time was highly oppressive. I admire the way he challenged the mainstream religious establishment and brought into that small, obscure, Middle Eastern religion (Judaism) a sense of humanist and religious compassion. I enjoy the fellowship I experience at the Church I attend, and I am happy to participate in the Anglican Charity work of the Congregation I belong to.

Richard Dawkins and I do not agree on everything.

Dr. Dawkins feels religion is dangerous and even equates teaching of religion to children with child abuse. I disagree with Dr. Dawkins strongly. I think religion has contributed greatly to the advancement of mankind...despite some of the drawbacks of religion. I think religion also provides a form of control of anti-social personalities that otherwise would not be there. Further, I think religion helps children cope with the brutal realities of mortality and provides a good foundation for moral structure. I am not opposed to religion at all mate. I think religion can be a very positive force in our society, and I recognize its contributions to our society.

I thought maybe I should clear that up because I often come across as being anti-religious, and in fact I support religion's role in our society. Unlike Dr, Dawkins, I think religion is a good thing. I strongly support a person's right to their faith -- including those amongst us who happen to be Muslim, Hindu, Buddha Dharma, Animisim, Voodooism, Judaism, Wicca, and of course Christianity. However, I do question the sanity of Satanists lol -- why would any rational person choose to go to hell?...lol

I don't at all deny that a God may have created all that there is. It certainly is within the realm of possibilities. However, I cannot commit to such belief without at least some scientific evidence, and until said evidence, determined using scientific methodology, is produce, I remain skeptical.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 5:54 PM

oh and sorry for my many typos. My browser does not seem to have a spell check function and so I often miss my mispellings and typos...I apologize for any inconvience said typos may cause.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 4:57 PM

JHH,

Thanks for the link to the Dawkins/Lennox debate. I love a good, formal debate and I am listening to it now as I type this.

Its a fresh breath of air to finally see a commenter such as yourself that takes an intellectual approach to this subject, and I really appreciate your contributions.

I do want to ask you though, do you feel that the "Stork Theory" of human reproduction (the "theory" that babies are brought by the Stork to homes) should be taught alongside the biological theory of reprocuction in public school science classrooms?

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 4:54 PM

somewhere out there...I'm dazzled by this conclusion by you:

"The average Catholic doesn't carry a worthy knowledge of the Christian faith. Their faith is lukewarm at best, and we all know that's not such a good thing."

I doubt you have the standing to make such an allegation. Wait, let me rephrase that - neither you nor anyone else has the standing to make such an allegation. And a person who would make this statement is, by definition, no Christian.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 4:53 PM

Thank you for this speak out in place. They've took over almost every blog you have,also remind them when they do post in the wrong Forum!

Thank again!

-- Posted by Jo on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 1:57 PM

Does this thing work? I've tried to post a couple times now without success...

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 7:20 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
It works. Your comment is posted. You may have to refresh your browser window to see new comments.

Richard Dawkins - "What if you're wrong?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXet...

Richard Dawkins sheds some light on the subject of why most people follow the religion they do and why they tend to think their religious beliefs are correct and all others are false.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 1:20 AM

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that the global Catholic population is very well-educated in their faith... Cradle Catholics, for one, have had the mixed blessings of having been brought up in their faith, and as such many become complacent. I believe that a greater population of Christians who come to their faith (Catholic or not) in their adult years are the ones who generally may be more educated. But, I could be wrong, it's just my guess. For a period of time, it was not encouraged enough among Catholics to read the bible. For a while, the Church was settling for listening and assuming, and not enough questions were asked to facilitate learning. (I don't think enough questions are asked in many faiths today, even.)

As far as scholars go...I don't think there's any contest that any Christian denomination has a greater grasp on Christianity than the Catholic faith teaches...that's pretty much a given. The Catholic Church is the only one that is traced back to the apostles. (Don't forget to give props to the Jews, the Christian ancestral faith!)

As far as the Catholic Church suppressing the bible...can you shed some light? I'm sure there are a number of factors to consider...such as authenticity of what was being printed in mass volumes, and whether it was of truth or not. [Consider that the Catholic Church, in its history (albeit prior to the many off-shoots today) did fight off many, many heretical sects and strove to preserve Christianity. Without some of the early monks, many books and articles of literature (biblical/theological and secular) would be likely be lost forever.] But if you cite Luther's 95 Theses, yeah, the Church had some pretty bad seeds in it at that time, and there are a number of things that were waaaaay out of line in Rome. That's a whole other forum in itself...

Anyway, I agree with each of you three who recently posted:

The average Catholic doesn't carry a worthy knowledge of the Christian faith. Their faith is lukewarm at best, and we all know that's not such a good thing.

The work, study and knowledge of Catholic scholars, generally speaking, outweigh that of other Christian scholars. Plus, the Catholic faith has, for centuries, been tying itself to the Jewish faith...I think it interesting when a non-Catholic comes across a nugget of goodness what has been a staple of Catholic theology for more than a thousand years... But as was noted, Jesus didn't ask the scholars to follow him; rather, he repeatedly rebuked the scholars of that day, for many were blind to the truth. And yes, some scholars (theological and secular) are blind to certain truths and restrain deviance from their version of truth...

-- Posted by somewhere out there on Thu, Nov 11, 2010, at 12:00 AM

john henry's hammer

Uh..actually a PHd is all about originality.

How can you complete a PHd without working on an original thesis? That is what you do when you earn a PHd. You develop an original thesis -- something that is new and original -- then you spend most of the 3 years it takes to earn a PHd proving that thesis.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 10, 2010, at 10:40 PM

Education does not make a Christian. Jesus didn't pick the best educated to follow him or to do extraordinary things. Most Catholics are so because their parents and possibly several generations were. Ask them why they believe what they do is because the church tells them too. They don't really know why they are Catholic.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Nov 10, 2010, at 9:40 PM

john henry's hammer

Catholic priests...and in particular Jesuit Priests...are the best educated clergy in the World. As a matter of fact, most Jesuits have a Phd. In addition, in terms of level of education, many, if not most, Catholics are extrememly well read in religious documents -- such as the collection of books we call the Bible. Demographically, Catholics tend to be very well educated.

I think they read and study the Bible at least as much as any other sect of Christianity and probably more.

I am not saying you are right or wrong mate. That isn't my call. As a matter of fact, I would bet you know a lot more about your particular sect of Christianity than I do. Never-the-less, its not fair nor is it correct to say or imply that Catholics or people of other faiths rely on what they "hear" about their religion when in fact most Catholics are very well educated in theology.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 10, 2010, at 7:47 PM

john henry's hammer

I appreciate the views of all people regarding their reasons for their religious beliefs.

I was not arguing who is right. Frankly, I would have no idea whether the Catholics are correct or if the Calvinists are correct.

However, to say that the billions of Catholics in the World are not "Christians" is absurd. Franky, those who would make such an assertion sound a lot like the little dog barking at the Big Dog.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 10, 2010, at 4:59 PM

Gee Eric,

I guess my pointing out that the World-wide, overwhelming majority of Christians (Roman Catholics) do believe that faith and acts are equally important and do not accept the Calvinist/Puritan concept of Grace (the concept that once one accepts Jesus they are forgiven for sins past, present, and future) but rather believe you must ask for God's forgiveness for each and every sin and do penance for said sin must have really struck someone's nerve lol lol lol....

Well Eric I was just stating a fact.

I didn't make the rules for the Catholics or the Calvinists. I just stated the facts...mate.

Anyway its nice to have a new forum for the interesting subject of Man and Religion...as well as a clean slate to post in lol lol lol...

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Nov 10, 2010, at 4:50 PM


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