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Speak Out [politics] April 18 to June 13, 2010

Sunday, April 18, 2010

This forum is for discussing political issues -- local, state, national or international. The same standards of behavior apply as are spelled out on our home page in the introduction to Speak Out.

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News (and others posting here lately),

I just stumbled across this section of the blog by accident and noticed numerous postings, mostly by News Across. Eric created a new politics section on June 13th but apparently didn't close this one to comments. I'm not saying not to post here, but most people will read and reply more if you go to the new section linked on the front page of the site.

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, Jun 25, 2010, at 1:26 PM

"Republicans kill Senate jobless aid measure"


If we vote these Republicans into power what else will they do to us?

The Republicans killed any real health-care reform. Now they have killed assistance to America's hardest working people who need the help the most.

We hard working folks...you and me...didn't complain when we paid our fair share of taxes -- while the Republican's pals, the fat cat bankers on Wall-Street saw their taxes cut year after year and got rich while the economy crashed.

We didn't complain when asked to tighten our belts for the good of the Country.

We didn't complain when they asked us to be patient while they launched wars all over the place,...

...but now, in the midst of the Republican economic depression -- the worst economic depression our Nation has seen since the last Great Depression the Republicans caused in 1929 -- when these hard working Americans asked for some additional time while they look for work, the Republicans have no time for them.

Its a sad state of affairs.

I have said it before and I will say it again...

The Party of NO! has got to GO!

We have an election coming up folks. So its up to us.

Let's make sure these Republicans no longer have enough seats in the Senate to filibuster anything, anymore.

Vote the least of 2 evils...vote Democrat...at least they want to help out the working people of America and give us all a fighting chance to win for a change.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 24, 2010, at 9:11 PM

"Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will be as one"

John Lennon


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Jun 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM


I was referring to Hispanic American Citizens -- Americans just like you and me -- born and raised in the United States.

Many of our fellow Americans live in areas where Spanish is their 1st language and is the language most commonly used -- such as many parts of Miami, Florida. Most probably also speak and understand English at a basic level at the minimum. However, as I was reading your comment -- and I do acknowledge that you were referring to immigrants and not Hispanic American Citizens -- which caused me to recall that there are some states that have attempted to legislate English as the only lawful language in their State and some politicians -- all conservative -- that have proposed doing the same thing Nationally.

However, I do agree that it is important for immigrants to have a fundamental understanding of English in order to better function in the USA since English is the most commonly used language in the USA.

Here in Australia immigrants under the age of 50 are required to demonstrate a basic ability to understand English. I had to take the same test the other immigrants did as well. Of course it was easy for me since I speak English as a 1st language already.

Unlike many other nations though, Australia respects that individuals have a right to their culture. Here everyone -- and especially immigrants -- have the right to celebrate their native culture's holidays and traditions provided such does not violate existing Australian National or State laws. For example, if an immigrant comes from a culture that normally uses marijuana they would not be able to do that here legally -- even though that may be part of their culture -- because our laws prohibit anyone from using that particular plant. Nor would they be able to use cocaine or any other controlled substance simply because everyone here is prohibited from unlawfully consuming controlled substances.

Here in Australia discriminating against an immigrant because they use their own language or because they celebrate their native holidays or dress in their native traditional dress or have an accent, ect is unlawful. Using racial slurs can be a criminal act here as well -- punishable by a large fine. Such discrimination here is defined legally as "racism" even if the immigrant is of the same race as the racist. Thus immigrants are protected and rightly so.

Australia's anti-racism law makes good sense and the state laws here have even greater protections for immigrants. So while certainly most immigrants -- including American immigrants like myself -- are required to demonstrate a rudimentary understanding of English as a part of the Citizenship test, their right to their culture and to use their own language is well protected. Perhaps this would be a suitable model for the USA to use or perhaps such protections are already in place in the USA.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Jun 23, 2010, at 3:35 AM

I agree with everything you said! No one should be required to do anything they don't want to do!But if it were me ,and wanted to work and make my home in another Country , I would need these thing so i wouldn't be isolated in my own culture! That is if you really want to be apart of things? Your host Country should not be required too adjust too your culture! I thing we should be fair with any other culture, but not have to change our way of life. I have seen Mexican students on the news, where they wanted too fly Mexico's flag on top of the USA flag at their school because they were the majority! Now this is not the way to assimilate in the Country? Im for living and let live, but there has to be harmony and respect on both sides! this is

America not the one i remember as a kid,with the thugs running it now! Excluding Obama,who is trying to corral the thugs! But how does he fight and organized Mafia? And there is no difference in my mind! Good to talk again,hope you & yours are well!!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 22, 2010, at 11:42 PM

"Revealed: Judge who overturned Obama's offshore moratorium owns drilling stocks"


-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 22, 2010, at 7:05 PM

any good races forming out your way for the august or november elections? we've got some doozies out here on the west side of the state. looks like there are quite a few folks around the state who are interested in assuming the congressional seat currently held by ike skelton. anything else newsworthy happening?


-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Jun 22, 2010, at 1:46 PM

Richard Dawkins: "One Fact to Refute Creationism"


I ran across this interview and found it to be a fascinating and rock solid argument. I hope some of the other readers might find it interesting also.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 22, 2010, at 5:10 AM


I don't think the law in Arizona has really anything to do with immigration reform nor can it have any significant effect on the problem of undocumented workers. It appears to be designed to harass American citizens who happen to be of Spanish decent. It certainly appears to be designed to single them out for profiling.

I am curious about one thing you made reference to though, should American citizens (born in the USA to Hispanic Americans who were also born in the USA, who are also the children of Hispanic Americans who were born in the USA, so on and so forth) who speak Spanish as a 1st language be forced to learn English as a 1st language and if so, why? If they can function speaking Spanish only -- and many do -- then what is the problem?

I mean, its not like English is the original language of the Americas.

Both English and Spanish are the languages of the European invaders of America -- the folks responsible for centuries of ethnic cleansing in the Americas resulting in the deaths of millions of Native Americans. In addition, Spanish was the common language in both North and South America long before English speakers invaded America.

It seems to me that there is no one language in America. Some citizens born in the USA speak English. Some citizens born in the USA speak Spanish. Some citizens born in the USA even speak French as a 1st language. So wouldn't forcing folks to speak English be a bit of a racist thing to do?

I say let each individual American citizen decide for themselves which language they prefer as long as they can function speaking that language. Isn't that part of being "free?" Or is freedom just a meaningless word?

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 22, 2010, at 5:04 AM

I personally think it a cruel thing to send someone back to Mexico after they have been here for many many years and have established a home here, and has abided by the low in every other way. Yes they should learn English, and abide by our Customs! It cause a lot more Problems for them when they have had Children hear. They are American Citizens! Yea , they should stop the new one's from coming in! It's hypocritical too use them when they do come in! The American Industrial Companies, Slaughterhouse's Housing Development! Just about every Industry does this to them! Stop hiring the new ones? They come because they can work and take car of there Family! We have Law's to take care of the Criminals! They are in need ,just like People in this Country? They are just as Human as we are! You don''t destroy Human Being's! this Country should try to help in a Human way? You can't base Human life on what it might do to the Economy!!

-- Posted by Jo on Mon, Jun 21, 2010, at 11:49 PM

I would like to know why my post on the immagration issue in Arizona and the Obama response to it was deleted?

-- Posted by sheepdip on Mon, Jun 21, 2010, at 5:54 PM


Oh and one other thing...civil rights are there to protect the individual -- not the majority. The majority don't need protection by virtue of the fact that they are the majority. Civil rights are designed to protect the individual from tyranny of the majority.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Jun 20, 2010, at 8:16 PM


Actually, the Federal Government is suing Arizona for usurping the Constitution.

Articles I and II of the Constitution place all control of our borders and immigration with the Federal Government and the Federal Government only.

In addition, the Federal Government has an obligation to ensure the civil rights of all Americans -- and in this case specifically Hispanic Americans living in or traveling through Arizona are protected from draconian, unconstitutional state laws.

I have read the legislation passed by the Republican legislature in Arizona and signed by a Republican Governor (who was never even elected to the office of Governor in Arizona -- she got the job by default). I have read the legislation 7 times now so I am pretty familiar with it. This legislation clearly targets Hispanic Americans for racial profiling -- even though it claims to prohibit racial profiling. It cannot be enforced without racial profiling. That violates the civil rights of Hispanic Americans in Arizona -- period.

I fully support the action by the Federal Government and I am pleased to see that finally enforcement of our Constitution has finally become a priority rather than the "...nothing but a GD piece of paper" as Bush called it.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, Jun 20, 2010, at 7:44 PM

I see in the KC paper that the Obama adminstration is going to sue to block Arizonia's new immagration law. The reason for this is that Mexico and Latin America nations do not like this law even after polls show 65% of amercian people support this law. It is a sad day when our own polticains but the interest of other nation's above the wishes of our own people.

-- Posted by sheepdip on Sat, Jun 19, 2010, at 8:54 PM


If someone happens to up-chuck, its the janitor who cleans it up right?

Whatever they are paying their janitors...its not enough.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 17, 2010, at 10:18 PM

Does anyone know the Marshall Democrat News doesnt ever question MMU about its policies? Somepeople are having trouble paying their bills, yet they give big raises to their employees every year. Also a janitor at MMU makes more money than local teachers do. Does anyone see a problem with this? They are now complaining about new EPA regs what about the salaries they pay their employees?

-- Posted by cheesehead on Thu, Jun 17, 2010, at 5:28 PM

Hey Jo,

I am with ya on the "Get Real Party!"

That is exactly what we need....The Get Real Party.

Where do I sign up?

-- Posted by news across on Wed, Jun 16, 2010, at 1:20 AM

You know, i think im finely getting what Oklahoma was talking about in one of his remarks on this blog! he said we are always looking for enemies,in Washington? And i think he got it right. We are the enemy, all of us,for the way we let our representatives separate ourselves from the right thing to do, for everyone? That was a profound message, as far as im concerned! Think about it? If we don't get some Reform on Term Limits for our entire Government we will always have this! So yes (we)) have met the enemy and its us! Watching frontline tonite finely penetrated this feeble brain!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 15, 2010, at 9:00 PM

We are always having a conversation about Voting all the incumbents out, not realizing that there is not anyone out there to replace them! They are all the same! I have tried to pick someone out, with no luck! From now to Election day, is going to be hell! But i have to vote. We all have too vote , but you have to have more choices! We need a Social Party, or a Revolutionary Party, or a Get Real Party! Something else to Vote for! Everything else stinks! Personally, for me i see no future for this Country or anyone in it! All these People have these weird, silly, strange ideas that has nothing to do with the trouble were in? The more i read about these people , the more revolutionary i want to be! And that seems to be no threat, when you too old to even attend a protest or have any impact on any of it ,other than a blah-blah-blah on a blog! frustrating!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 15, 2010, at 7:53 PM


I read your comment with great amusement. Frankly you make some good points.

You say, "the man knows little about foreign policy, is almost a shady character, and may even have some sort of criminal background."

When I read that, I could not help but wonder -- based upon your description of Mr. Greene -- what makes him any different from any other Senatorial Candidate? lol lol lol...

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 15, 2010, at 4:50 PM

in south carolina, questions have arisen by politicians, pollsters and pundits trying to figure out how a candidate who had no money and no campaign infrastructure was able to pull out a victory over a well-funded local lawmaker in a statewide race. one S.C. Representative even thinks someone must have hacked into the election computer.

somehow, the less "well-healed" and less "powerful" among us -- although we know nothing about the winner of the primary election -- are hoping it wasn't a hack job that brought the man his victory.

obviously -- if you've read the news accounts of this mr. greene -- the man knows little about foreign policy, is almost a shady character, and may even have some sort of criminal background. and theories for how greene was able to pull out his victory include speculation that his position at the top of the ballot helped him win votes.

in all fairness, i must say that those who find themselves alarmed by greene's victory may have a right to be. the man is facing a felony charge allegedly for showing pornography to a college student, for pete's sake. but rep. james clyburn insisting that because greene won he must have been a "plant" and that some law must have been broken seems to go a bit too far.

and, of course, republicans have dismissed the allegation or suggestion that someone in the party planted greene to sabotage the race, saying democrats are just "embarrassed" that greene won.

but think with me for just a moment - what if a no-name, un-funded, little guy could win an election? what would that say to politicians and pollsters and pundits? what if someone without the backing of either of the major parties and without the finances to secure any and all forms of advertising -- what if that person won an election outright? i'm guessing it might just change the face of America.


-- Posted by zeke on Tue, Jun 15, 2010, at 2:28 PM

Oklahoma Reader

It is sad that we never seemed to have truly learned the lesson available to us in our Vietnam war fiasco.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 15, 2010, at 2:55 AM

Cheetah: Very interesting, very, very, interesting.

As if there were not already a host of reasons as to why we won't ever get out of this miserable, misbegotten, mishandled war we now have this. God only knows how long the Bush/Cheney Administration had been licking their chops over this "new" information. Make no mistake the Obama Administration shares that avarice.

It is going to be an interesting show to watch. On the one hand we have the traditional militaristic empericism of the United States. On the other we have the more subtle economic empiricism of China. Which will win in Afghanistan? For that matter, which will win the world over?

My money is on the Chinese. Their form of achieving dominance does not devastate the infrastructure, and resources of their country, nor that of the country of interest. In fact each successful encroachment increases the coffers of each.

Contra to that our heavy handed form of empericism utilizes the irrational approach of first identifying, then identifying with, out of power elements within a country. Then through our use of devastating force we "assist" those elements in their "struggle for freedom". The immediate result is devastation of the country. Before we can begin to reap any of the rewards of successful empericism we further deplete our own resources necessarily rebuilding the havoc we have wreaked. This, before we can even begin to realize any material gain from our endeavor.

How many times must we repeat these fiascos before we learn to change? Obviously we did not learn from our Viet Nam experience. It took many years for us to recieve any material gain from that relationship. Now they are our great trade partners. What if we had just skipped that war, realizing that the French had failed there giving every portent that our result would be the same?

So, here we are, having failed to heed that the mighty U.S.S.R. had failed miserably in a similar Afghan expedition, neck deep in the big muddy.

The U.S.S.R. fell apart after their mistake. Hopefully we will not. It is certain that we can no longer afford the luxury of military empericism, and maintain the standard of living that we have enjoyed. That at the least.

Are we stupid, or what?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jun 14, 2010, at 2:59 PM

Seems everyone wants the Political Blog too be on the home page!

-- Posted by Jo on Fri, Jun 11, 2010, at 5:26 PM

Nanadot, on Wednesday, 6/9, you said Missouri is a right-to-work state. This confused me a bit because in my younger years (MANY years ago!), I was forced to join the Teamsters or lose my first real part-time job in high school, and I thought I remembered right-to-work as meaning an employee could not be forced to join a union.

I finally got around to doing a little Google searching and found two things. First, my memory served me correctly in that right-to-work means that an employee has a right to work without having to be required to join a union.

The other thing I found out is that Missouri is NOT a right-to-work state.

Like just about everyone else, I curse the unions when they do stupid stuff, but I also thank them for what they have achieved (and are still trying to improve) for the American worker.

-- Posted by TerryM on Fri, Jun 11, 2010, at 2:39 PM

I personally think we haven't seen anything yet , with this Oil Spill! Somethings can't be corrected with Money!

-- Posted by Jo on Fri, Jun 11, 2010, at 12:11 PM

wtf I hated english class

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 11:24 PM

nanadot not really an environmental disaster your kidding right. already the worst disaster in our history and anywhere that oil flows it will be disastrous. Why would I think taxpayers should pay for this? I am a taxpayer you know. I think the taxpayers will ultimately pay over the next 10-20 years though through higher energy cost whether we want to or not. It won't be by choice. As for acorn how is it working for me it hasn't had a direct impact on me one way or another.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 11:21 PM

news I get along fine with the shop stewards. My education and critical thinking skills have led to the success that I enjoy. If it wasn't for that I probably would have been a shop steward.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 11:07 PM

What the f......

You make a good point mate.

However, as I learned when I was a Teamsters Shop Steward, most of the first line supervisors and even some that are a little higher up that I have worked with seem to lack any significant education. That isn't to say they can't follow orders. It just means that their critical analysis skills tend to be rather low. However, their lack of critical analysis skills did make my job as Shop Steward much easier.

Still...you make an excellent point.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 8:49 PM

It would seem to me that a real "corporate manager" who deals with three different unions on a daily basis would understand basic sentence structure and rudimentary punctuation.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 7:28 PM


Well then you know that when you say "union" you really are referring only to the employees of the company you work for.

The employees of your company have the right to negotiate pay and benefits as 1 rather than each individual accepting the dictates of management.

If you or other managers at your company cannot make your company function just because the employees prefer to negotiate their pay and benefits collectively, then your company should go out of business and get out of the way, because there are plenty of businesses that can do the job and work well with unions and make a good profit doing it. Inefficient and ineffective companies are a drag on our economy. So your employer had best get with the program...or step down and let a company that can do the job take over.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 7:01 PM

news as a manager in a corporation I am well aware of what a union is I have to deal with 3 different unions everyday so no I don't think I'm the one confused here.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 6:37 PM

you're right news us simple minded folks seem to get confused easily glad we have someone of your intellect to keep us straight.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 6:35 PM


You seem to be confused as to what a union is.

A union is the employees or a business negotiating pay and benefits collectively rather than individually.

Corporations certainly take the same approach with consumers everyday. You don't get to argue the price of that new Ford truck with the secretary who works for Ford. Rather, Ford bargains with the consumer collectively as a company.

Employees have a right to negotiate their pay with their employer and they have the right to conduct said negotiation as a single block.

This approach has worked very well for our Nation. Most middle class folks are not descended from rich or middle class ancestors. Most middle class folks today can trace their roots to the working class where their ancestors formed unions and fought hard to win decent pay and working conditions. As a result of the struggle of our ancestors to form unions, we have a large middle class today. With out the right to collective bargaining, most of us would still be living in poverty as our ancestors did.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 5:47 PM

I'm wondering where the union was for 14 years not requiring him to pay. I'm surprised if it was contractual that one year went by. He is described as an exemplary employee so he really don't need the union. But if he was an employee that just did enough to get by, abused sick leave, extended his breaks, etc. he better pay the union dues so that no matter how bad of an employee he is the union will protect his job. So if you have a bad employee the union will fight tooth and nail to keep their job but in this case the union doesn't care what kind of employee he is he will be fired over $500 dollars. The union is out for the union not for the worker.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 10, 2010, at 6:05 AM

rr3 here is a secondary source regarding the mad Major. Surprisingly it (The Boston Herald) goes into a bit more detail than Fox News in regard to the "agency" issue. Don't bother to read it though because you got all you needed to know from Fox News. Right?


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 11:20 PM

rr3 I would explain it as an unresolved legal issue involving contract law. I don't really see any information that the matter involves the Mafia.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 10:33 PM

Oh okr I'm sorry how would you explain forcing an employee to pay to the union or get fired?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM

rr3 I read the Fox News link you provided about the union problem the teacher had. You stated union, and mafia problem. Even Fox didn't go there.

You just can't resist making up unsupported things can you?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 5:27 PM

unions spend $10 million on a candidate and lose in Arkansas. Nanadot look around where most of the unemployment is union states or cities. Oh no that couldn't be the problem. Must be Bush and Cheney's fault yeh that must be it. I have seen the light.

Union labor cannot be fired at will or for no reason even if they are worthless at their job.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM

More union mafia extortion tactics.


What happened to the right to work?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 2:18 PM

Thank you for clearing that up nanadot.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 11:03 AM

Talk is cheap more incompetance from our community antagonizer-in-chief.




Why are they trying to save Obamacare when it is already law?


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 6:33 AM

nanadot I don't think all liberals are anything anymore than I think all Christians are. I got the impression from one of your post that you think all Christians are extreme right.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 5:36 AM

News I don't know that I have attacked you personally or otherwise. At least not recently. But you might have to do a few more post about why you don't watch fox news just for us simple minded folks.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 5:32 AM

Because I am sincerely concerned about the state of our nation I keep in my mind the constant, if dim, hope that somehow the gulf between left, and right can be bridged for the betterment of our nation. By nation I mean the people who inhabit our country.

Where is the common ground? Was it there at least to some degree when our nation was founded?Granted about half the country was Tory, supportive of continued ties to England. Somehow despite this we became a nation that for a while enthralled freedom lovers the world over.

That is not the case now, nor has it been so for a very long time. What has become of that America, one that has become a nation that not only is disrespected the world over, but has lost the respect of its own citizens?

Those on the right rail against what we have become, are surly, and accuse the left of being the perpetrators. Those on the left also rail against what we have become, are surly, and accuse the right of being the perpetrators. We each pick at sometimes superficial things things that "the others" do, accusing "the others" of being the ruination of the nation.

Have we forgotten that there was a time in our not too distant past that Republicans, and Democrats in Washington were actually able to reach consensus, or at least to reach proactive compromise for the good of our nation? Have we forgotten that there was a time when we largely believed the evening news, no matter which of the four net works available to us presented it?

Now we elect Republicans, then we elect Democrats, and nothing much changes except our nation continues its down hill slide. The majority of the people have less as time marches on. We all run off to Fox, or MSNBC, or CNN, which ever supports our preconceptions as to what is wrong. Some stay with the old networks that have cut their news staffs, cut their time devoted to news, and spend more, and more of that time on the visual drama presented by fires, police chases, and missing blonde girls.

What the hell is wrong with us? What has happened to make so many of us left, right, and center so miserable, so discontented? What has made us blame each other?

I believe that it is the encroachment of fascism within our nation. The word is thrown around, many of us do not know what it means. Thanks to a fellow poster who has posted a link to a crystal clear definition of fascism we can all understand it. It is named "Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism". http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Please read the link, and see if you do not agree that the majority of these characteristics are in place in our country today. There will be differences of opinion between left, and right as to how each is manifested, but I believe that most will agree that they exist.

I believe that most of us are so blinded by the trees that we can not see that the entire forest is burning around us. I also believe that it will take us all regardless of political persuasion to put out the fire. We must before our once glorious nation becomes a vast waste land.

Please. We all must be patriots.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 9, 2010, at 2:37 AM


Personal attacks or attempted attacks on my character (you don't even know me) are not helpful and do not change the facts.

I prefer not to watch Fox News because they 1.) mislead and 2.) they try to put spin on the facts with one-sided commentaries.

Its that simple.

Perhaps they are just a lousy news organization and can't sort facts from inference. Maybe they just are incompetent. Or maybe they are a right-wing organization that exists to put conservative spin on the facts.

Whatever causes them to consistently make factual errors really matters not to me.

I simply prefer any news organization just give me the facts and I will decide for myself. Fox News deals in rumor, innuendo, inferrence, and political smear...not factual information.

I choose not to watch Fox News for those reasons.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 10:13 PM

Give the American People the facts and then let us sort it out for ourselves. That's what I do news.

I'm glad to be simple minded news thats what all the liberals think of the American people. I'm just sorry that I don't have all the facts available to mankind to match your intellect. I don't think the world could stand 2 of us!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 9:21 PM

nanadot You look at or read several different sources, primary AND secondary. How do you tell which one is true?

You are correct about religion I believe a person upon acceptance of Jesus joins the Christian faith. After acceptance then to follow Jesus with study, prayer and possibly joining a church thats the religion. I don't expect a non-believer to fully understand.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 9:14 PM

ND thanks for the links. They were up to your usual quality.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 6:16 PM


Fox news is anything but fair or balanced. Almost all of their "paid contributes" are hardcore, right wingers with an agenda...the same agenda they had under right winger George "Dubba" Bush.

The few Democrats they have on are right wing democrats -- not far from the republican right winger position themselves.

But the biggest problem I have got with Fox News is that they frankly get the facts wrong a lot. Later they issue a correction, but by that time simple minded folks have already grasped the Fox News "error" as "fact" and accept it -- with out even learning they had in fact been misinformed.

The next thing you know there are a bunch of Teabaggers protesting the biggest tax DECREASE in our Nation's history as if it was a tax increase.

We tune out of Fox News in our home now. We prefer news sources that can get the story correct the first time around. With facts we don't need spin. If Fox really wants to be fair and balanced then they should just report the facts and keep the Hannity, Palin, O'Reilly, and their "morning crew" out of the program. We can live with out the right wing spin, thank you very much. Give the American People the facts and then let us sort it out for ourselves. We neither want nor need Hannity or Palin telling us what we should think.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 6:12 PM

I would like to see reports with Documentation. Rachel Maddow has a unique way of reporting, that i like. I think she will be one of the greats of Journalism! Before there are any remarks! Yes she is a out spoken Liberal, but i think she is fair! and very Educated! I don't think anyone wants to be interviewed by her?

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 5:56 PM

Jo I appreciate your kind thoughts and concern. I don't believe everything on fox is true but I find fox news to give more of both sides than other sources so I get to decide for myself what I want to agree with. Isn't that kind of like listening or reading from several sources? How do you discern what is true or not?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 2:15 PM

nanadot you are welcome. Religion has nothing to with being a believer in Jesus Christ. We can name hundreds of groups that classify themselves as religions but most are cults. To be a Christian does not mean you have to be a member of a "religion". Any one of us can be "religious" but that doesn't mean we are Christian. No I do not know about the project at harvard but as "Christians" we have fundamental beliefs that is part of being a Christian. Don't let those that you classify as extreme right cloud your thinking that you have to be that way to be a Christian. That's not Christian.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 2:02 PM

Nanodot: The introduction to these links, Gives reader a little spark of hope for our system! Thanks Again1

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 1:06 PM

rr3: I have a question, all your link's seem to be from fox News, witch is your choice. I get a better idea of the truth through a verity of News Agency's.Just a thought!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 12:59 PM

your first answer is correct and it is not a broad subject it is the only answer. Religion has nothing to do with it. You don't even have to be part of a certain "religion" as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour. As for knowing whether someone is a christian only they know we can only accept what they tell us.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 2:42 AM

nanadot do you know what a "true christian" is?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Jun 8, 2010, at 2:00 AM

nanadot I am responding to your second link. Mr. Hedges does not define Christian except for those that believe in "biblical law" whatever that is he is not specific. True Christians are not what he refers to in the article. It is a good opinion article but has a lot of generalities to lump things together. I don't think Christians are what we need to worry about.

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant"


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Jun 7, 2010, at 9:00 PM

Is the World Broke? Entitlements, Spending May Spell Doom

Soooooooooo how is that Federal Spending Multiplier working out for you?


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Jun 7, 2010, at 2:08 PM

Gov't Fails Latest Test of Trust in Gulf


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Jun 7, 2010, at 2:00 PM

"Little" poverty in Australia? That appears to be changing:


-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Sun, Jun 6, 2010, at 2:54 PM

taxpayed... "nothing" in the sense that I was referring to means that the government job does not return more to the economy like a private sector job does with a good or service that is consumable.

We are not arguing that a some of economic capital should not go to pay for things like our military or infrastructure. The point is that when that money DOES go to that, the effect, economically, of the money is much less effective than when the money stays within the private sector.

In the private sector, supply and demand, causes things to be made and then sold at a profit, thus expanding the economy. Whereas the money removed from tax payers to provide things within the government does two things. One, remove capital from the private sector which would use it to invest and grow the economy and employ other people who would continue the cycle. Two the capital removed from the economy and given to the government is not going to do anything to grow the economy. It might go to pay a government employee, but there is so much red tape and bureaucracy that you are not getting nearly as much bang from the buck with a government job as you are a private job. That does not even consider the amount of money that gets removed to pay for this or that pork added to bills at the state and federal levels.

So your point about the military and etc, really does not apply to the point we were discussing

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, Jun 6, 2010, at 10:33 AM


For someone who claims to be a trained economist... I find your last post logically challenged.

Just because we are in a recession does not mean the private sector job market failed. Even you cannot be making that statement. Then you continue to claim that because there are people who have been laid off due to a recession, that the government job sector can some how make the economy recover.

Basically what you are implying that by increasing government jobs, jobs that create NO profit to cover expenses, no increase in economic capital and therefore no real or long-term economic stimulus, we can somehow have a job market that grows to 100% employment?

LOL that is the most ridiculous statement someone who claims to ben an economist has evern made.

The ONLY way an economy grows is if the jobs provided to the people are in some way going to increase capital, or money. The only way that happens is through consumerism. Government jobs are a total drain to the economy and primarily benefit either the political or government workers which provide services to those who are poor or unbeneficial to the economy, taking AWAY money from the actual people and businesses who could otherwise utilize that money to grow the economy.

100% employment is something of fantasy, not reality. Even if there were that many jobs, not all people would work.... they are too used to government handouts

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, Jun 6, 2010, at 10:25 AM

I'm not so sure the Federal Spending Multiplier is our friend.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 10:27 PM


Actually the Federal Spending Multiplier is our friend. As the empirical evidence demonstrates, nothing creates jobs or new business faster than the FSM.

Anyway, I have noticed that the private sector doesn't seem real red hot on that new jobs creation thing. The private sector doesn't seem capable of doing the job adequately...after all the private sector has never been able to provide full employment. Under the private-sector job creation plan (the private-sector doesn't have a plan) a lot of folks lost their jobs and many...if not all...are still out of work now. So frankly, given the size and depth of this current economic depression, it looks to me like the private sector plan isn't working out real well.

We need jobs in America...not conservative excuses for why the conservatives could not do the job in the first place.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 5:15 PM

news I am glad I could make you happy and disappoint you in the same post. I feel that I have arrived. Thank You

A government job cannot be created it has to be taken from the private sector. Meaning the money for that government employee is taken as taxes and cannot be spent on a private sector job. The government only creates something from what it takes. Each government job takes more than one job from the private sector because the government job pays better and has better benefits because they don't have to realize a profit.

The more government jobs we have = fewer private jobs = less revenue to the government for increased cost = unsustainable.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 11:17 AM

mrxray, you make some good points about the value (or lack of) of government jobs, but I'm puzzled by one bit: "government is making a decision to take tax monies, taken from the consumer for NOTHING in return..."

Nothing? What about the biggest, best military in the world? What about development of a vast highway system to improve the flow of commerce? What about the development of the Internet, the latest location for social and economic interaction? What about supplemental retirement system? medical insurance? parks? nutrition programs for poor children and mothers? Etc.

I disagree with a LOT of things the federal government does and how it does them, but I think it's going too far to say we don't get anything of value from our tax investment. The government is us, and it's use of tax money is us pooling our resources to do things on grander scales than any individual or business could possibly do.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 7:10 AM

WHO... world health organization.... and the UN are being condemned by the European nations for WHO's response and recommendations and WHO's ties to Pharma companies that 'advised' WHO regarding the H1N1 flu virus and the subsequent waste of millions of dollars on vaccines that expire.

In other words, drug companies conned WHO into conning world leaders into buying unneeded medications to treat a flu strain that and did so by over exaggerating the H1N1 ....

I just wish more and more people could see that WHO is not about caring and compassion but all about pushing for a ONE world governance and massive global wealth redistribution.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 3:08 AM

OMG... lol Obama is saying now that Arizona's law to punish employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens is bad and should be overturned...

Is that not the second place we should attack the illegal alien problem, the first being closing and securing the border?

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 3:03 AM

Based on the jobs report mentioned in my previous post, the Dow fell 3%, the FTSE fell 1.6%, the CAC fell 2.9% and the DAX fell 1.9%.....

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 2:35 AM

news... the trouble with government jobs is that not one of them is a job that provides a consumable good or service that would provide a cycle of reusable capital within the economy.

A private job is FUNDED by the consumer PAYING a price for the product. The price is dictated by supply/demand, theoretically, and that price includes the cost of making the product which includes the wages paid to the people making the product. SO the consumer's price pays the wages of the employees that are making said good.

The government job, on the other hand, is a job ONLY because some portion of the government is making a decision to take tax monies, taken from the consumer for NOTHING in return, and giving it to a person to perform some function within in the government with no product to turn around and sell at a profit to cover the cost of providing the service.

The sad part of the new jobs report which in fact said 431,000 new government jobs were created, most of which were temp jobs in the census taking area, and only 41,000 new private sector jobs were made, thus MORE......MUCH more money is being removed from the tax payers and from the economy and being used in a MUCH less efficient manner by going thru the bureaucracy of all the fraud, waste, corruption, laziness and oh yea... costly benefits paid out to government employees.

All the areas in which the government has tried to stimulate the economy rely on HUGE debt to unreliable nations that do not have the best interest of the US in mind and are going to stimulate either TEMP jobs or TEMP programs like cash for clunker cars, appliances or TEMP home buyers programs that encourage people to spend money they dont have, OR it is going to stimulate government jobs, which have not economic growth factor within the economy and in fact are drains on the economy, or worse yet the jobs stimulated are TEMP government jobs and when the all the TEMP has run out and we have no more means in which to stimulate anything our economy is going to suffer worse than we have ever seen....

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 2:29 AM

News: Nice to see that you are as fit as a fiddle. ;) (That was meant to be a pun if my recall of your complete on line occupational biography is correct.)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jun 5, 2010, at 12:05 AM


I read your comment and the links you provided to support your thesis.

I was happy to learn that the first link you post, a Fox-News article that reports on a document of suggestions drawn up by the FTC.

I like their suggestions and I would like to see many of those ideas incorporated into law. It looks like we have some pretty sharps folks working over there at the FTC. I know I for one certainly like the provision for better funding of Public Radio and Public Television.

As to your other link.

It was a poorly composed, personal opinion of a non-expert. I can appreciate that we all have our own opinions...unfortunately, the author of the comment cites not one source for his figures. Where did he get those figures? Where are his links? He provides none because those are insta-facts...you know, just became facts as soon as he blurted them out...even though he seems to have grabbed those figures out of thin air.

However, I certainly have no doubt the Government is the largest employer in the United States...it is the largest employer, and it has been for a long time. That is why when I hear the crazies on the right claim that the government can't create jobs, I really have to wonder what planet they are referring to.


-- Posted by news across on Fri, Jun 4, 2010, at 6:00 PM

The government giveth and the government taketh away!


431,000 jobs created in May and only 21,000 in the private sector. Huh!! How much damage will be done by the Obama regime before people wake and see it.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Jun 4, 2010, at 1:52 PM

Reckless, Feckless, Relentless Incompetence


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Jun 4, 2010, at 7:00 AM

Right on Jo!!

-- Posted by news across on Fri, Jun 4, 2010, at 5:07 AM

More rotten stuff between congressmen, and Haliburton. Haliburton giving money to Senators on the commitees investigating them, and the oil spill. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/061...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jun 4, 2010, at 12:40 AM

just remember Jo eternity is a long time to be wrong. and we are not to judge that is up to God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 9:51 PM

rr3: There you go again,does that sound familiar? And your always calling me an expert on every observation i make. Hear me! Im am not any kind of expert on anything! I try to read a lot on every wrong thing i hear,and make a judgment i don't debate it,i just try too find the truth,to satisfy my own need, and pass it on to anyone wants too read it! That includes Christianity! If i read everything i can ( even the Bible,ya) i have read it, but nothing about it made sense! And i don't need an interpreter. There 's a ton of good thing's, but a ho lot of gibberish! If i wanted to follow all that, i would have already been there after 75 years. But i do hope your right, and it has lead you too a good life! If i'm wrong i will be with a lot of Educated People! So thanks for your concern!

-- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 9:15 PM

You can't keep God out of politics.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 7:59 PM

Good article on lessons from the past of how things change they remain the same.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 7:54 PM

Jo your post seemed vague and inconclusive except for you hatred for Reagan, Bush and Cheney. Could we have you expert opinion on what a "good" Christian is?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 7:51 PM

I see there are still conservative that well not accept the reasonability of the Conservatives and what has been done, since Reagan! I haven't been brushing up on Politic all that long. But i think a blind Man can see they have been wrong in just about everything they have tried to do,Especially with the Budget! And this moron Bush & Cheney just about put us over the edge in every aspect of the American way! A person can be loyal to a Party,but when your so corrupted, to not see right from wrong on either side, it's just wrong, and should not be involved in the process! Same in religion, be a good Christian, or don't participate!

-- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 6:34 PM

when will barrack and rahm get the hint that washington d.c. isn't the south side of chicago?

transparency? - hardly ...


-- Posted by zeke on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 2:15 PM

Mrxray, midniterebel, and NanaDot thank you for responding to my musings.

I found each response instructive, in various ways.

As I age I full well realize that one good way to keep the barnacles off my brain is to occasionally challenge my own set of notions. I accomplish that by musing as to what those notions are, and what questions are raised by them. So, thanks for the help.

Here is a short poem dedicated to the three of you.

We can holler all we want, and raise a fuss,

and we can point fingers as we cuss.

It ain't govment, it ain't BP.

At the bottom of the well it's you, it's me.

That's right folks it is us.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 12:50 PM

Largest job market right now is the Census Bureau. 550K+ jobs. And they are saying that in the past few weeks there have been fewer first time unemployment claims. and possibly a slow or gradual increase in employment. What happens when the census is over and 550K people are once again unemployed?

Along with the ill-preparedness of the Census and the problems with FELONS and other criminals hired by the government to conduct the census, I would have to say that the Census data collection this time around has been an abject failure and can only be viewed as unreliable data at best. This is what happens when you get a community activist instead of a tried and experience CEO, Governor or Congress person as POTUS

-- Posted by mrxray on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 10:55 AM

OKR... your beating on the dead horse of corporations is silly. The ONLY reason we have that situation is BECAUSE Of the government and the politicians AND because we the people are lazy, dont care about politics UNTIL it directly affects our pocketbooks. We all have the CHOICE and the FREEDOM to go to the polling booths and vote at each and every election YET barely 50% of the population votes, if that in lots of elections.

I can make an equally compelling case for why liberalism is the cause of all of our problems. Just look to oil and the gulf "leak" If the liberal agenda had not demanded and forced the elimination of domestic drilling for oil on our OWN LAND and not gradually pushed the only places to drill domestically to first the shallow areas in the off shore areas and then into DEEP and dangerous waters we would not have the problem in the gulf that we do right now. We would have had places on LAND with proven techniques to stop blown well heads AND a source of oil at a cheaper cost instead of what we have in the gulf right now. This situation has nothing to do with big oil and the evil big business but all to do with liberal whackos pushing a HARMFUL agenda that is harming our economy, security and now the environment. Same with some of the richest farmland in California... instead of reaping the wealth of the land and therefore increased state revenue, the are letting land go because of one small critter or fish and preventing farmers and tree growers from operating their farms. People are out of work, losing their long time family owned farms and other harmful consequences of a stupid idea.

And I can go on and on about how the liberal/leftist agenda is harming our nation.. Oh how about spending money for entitlements when we have borrowed ourselves into a huge debt that we cannot pay back and we are quickly reaching the debt levels that Greece has? Spend spend spend but doing everyting to prevent the economy from recovering...

-- Posted by mrxray on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 10:52 AM

OKR: The main differences between the left and right are that the left think that the government should be big enough and expensive enough to support every person in every manner because they believe that ALL problems in our nation are caused, NOT by personal failures and bad choices, but by someone else's fault. The Left does not care how big and inefficient the government is, just that it DOES pay for all things for all people

The Right, on the other hand, believes that EACH person should be responsible for their own actions, their own choices and their own families, their own careers and etc. The Right thinks that the government should NOT be the one making choices for us, nor bailing us out when we screw up.

The POLITICAL part of these terms are skewed by corruption on BOTH parties faults and the republican vs Democrat party junk is all geared NOT by what they think is best for the nation, but what they think will get them elected and re-elected. Where are the next campaign donations coming from.

One of the things that I see on this message board and others is that people cannot separate the normal every day citizen and their beliefs from the political party beliefs and lump them all together, blaming both the common folk and the politicians of the party they oppose as one entity.

as for emotions ruling the direction of the mind. To be honest, the liberals are just as emotionally ran as you claim the righties are.. They are bleeding heart people who cannot bear the guilt and pain that individual choices and the good AND bad consequences might give to the people and so their bleeding heart HAS to find a way to blame a big business or the Republican. Maybe you need to reexamine your OWN stance on politics and the world and acknowledge that REALITY shows that EACH party and EACH belief has faults and are EQUALLY corrupt and equally to blame for ALL problems in our nation.

Maybe Republican politicians are more inclined to favor private business, which includes big oil, over the government run entities (not really the case lately) but the DEMS are some of the biggest beneficiaries of BIG OIL money when it comes to campaign donations... Example Obama is in the top 3 of recipients of BP oil money... LOL

Anyway, any person that tries to claim that one party or one ideology is just not being intellectually honest.

-- Posted by mrxray on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 10:43 AM


I don't understand left or right wing this or that mumbo jumbo, but I do agree with you on the fact that people(all people) only hear or see what they want to as long as it is to there benifit. Whether it be politics,sex,religon or any suject being discussed or debated on very few people have a brod vision it's usually tunnel vision to there own viwes.

Unfortunatly in my oppinion anyway I belive that is why we end up in so many needless wars, our goverment thinks democracy is the only way to go.

I don't get it these countries have survived thousands of years before America was discovered why can't we just leave well enough alone?

-- Posted by midniterebel on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 8:15 AM


No, my wife and I are not rich.

We are middle class...as are most Australians. There are only a handful of rich folks...and very little poverty, relative to the USA.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all middle class?

-- Posted by news across on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 12:28 AM

Just wondering. I wonder if folks on the right side of the political spectrum react more emotionally, and passionately to trigger words, and phrases, than do those on the left side of the spectrum?

For instance I see over, and over,righties that just go off at words like welfare, immigrants, government take over, pro choice, equal rights, minority rights, etc. They also are emotionally distracted by words like Pelosi, Obama. It seems to me that they often miss the point of commentary, or essay if they encounter a trigger word early in the comment. It seems as if at that point emotion takes over, rationality vanishes, and their minds just jump to catch phrases, and anthems, the tired triteness of worn out slogans promoted by the evangelical enthusiasm of talk radio and Fox News.

I am left wondering did they really read what they are attacking in such an off point manner? I conclude that yes they saw the words, but with a preoccupied mind. A mind filled with emotion. A mind in lock step with the demagogues whose business it is to provoke such emotional response.

I do not see this same process occuring on the left. I more often see dispassionate rational response to commentary representing the conservative point of view.

The opposing catch words that ignite an equally emotional response in those on the left are the hate words such as queer, faggot, and the N word. The other group of words that provoke the left are Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, etc. Why is it that positions do not provoke the left in the same fired up way?

Why is there no mirror image of the Tea Party on the left?

It is also true that left wing talk radio is an abysmal failure. It is believed by many that is because that those on the left just don't care to listen to the format adored by the right, i.e. breast beating emotional harangues against the positions of the opposite camp.

As some evidence indicates, do our brains function differently? Is the dichotomy as great as that between homo sapiens, and Neanderthals? For that matter does the difference perhaps relate in some way to the latter dichotomy?

It seems to me that until we get to the bottom of the dramatic differences between the right, and the left our chances of uniting for the good of our nation will remain sharply curtailed.

Just asking.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jun 3, 2010, at 12:15 AM

news the definition of rich varies greatly and is ever changing. You say you and your wife are financially secure and I believe you are. Would you be considered rich folks?

As long as the American spirit is alive and well we will overcome.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 2, 2010, at 8:14 PM

Oh and while I am at it,

A voice from the past reminds us that "We Shall Overcome."

Its a warm message of hope to all the good folks in Marshall who are out of work right now or on the verge of being out of work, to the good folks who work hard everyday and wonder what happened to their piece of the American pie, and even to those rich folks who think they can keep the People down.

There is hope!

Pete Seeger - "We shall overcome"


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Jun 2, 2010, at 6:19 PM

Don't American mineral and oil resources belong to the American People?

"This land is your land, this land is my land..."

Woody Guthrie


-- Posted by news across on Wed, Jun 2, 2010, at 6:10 PM

I think we should let government control everything. I mean look at the success with the oil spill our government is telling us BP is responsible but we the government are in charge. I think the incompetence of our government has shown that they can take charge and get it done. Our fiscal incompetence of our government surely proves that they can reform and take over our banking system. All their experience at running a business such as the postal service surely qualifies them to take over car companies. Now with universal health care we have nothing else to worry about except going to work. Oh yeh a lot of people are out of work well maybe they should just expand the unemployment checks to everyone like the health care and none of us would have to work. Wow free health care and a check in the mail that should be the social utopia all liberals could go for don't you think? I guess we could go on and on about the proven successes of the government to take over all aspects of our life. I'm getting ready to quit work so I can get a check, free health care, get a car from government motors and a new home. Surely we can't expect people to pay for all of this. Oh I forgot if you are blessed with more than me don't forget to give me my share. Thanks

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Jun 2, 2010, at 5:00 AM

Robert Reich on the oil spill: http://www.alternet.org/story/147055/5_r...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jun 2, 2010, at 2:47 AM

Bacon (1561-1626), another outspoken Christian, formulated the "scientific method" and brought a more quantitative approach to science.

Science proves nothing absolutely.


Belief can alter observations. News I just pray that you would open your mind to the possibility and then God can show you the truth.


I belief faith in God allowed these scientist to discover great things.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 31, 2010, at 7:48 AM


That was funny. I know that was satire but I can aculay see that fool sayin somthin like that.

-- Posted by midniterebel on Mon, May 31, 2010, at 7:12 AM

Okla: Thanks for the link to the Dawkins site. I can get hooked on this! The speakers are great,the subject matter is better. Very interesting. Thank again!

-- Posted by Jo on Mon, May 31, 2010, at 4:12 AM

Fair Warning: This is satire. http://www.borowitzreport.com/

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 31, 2010, at 1:38 AM


Actually mate, his belief can be summed up in 2 words...scientific methodology.

However, he certainly does make the point that your beliefs have no more testable, observable, repeatable, and verifiable evidence to support them than does a person raised a Hindu, a Buddhist, or even a voodoo spiritualist. I think he would agree with my assessment and observation that a belief with no supporting, scientific evidence is no better than believing that there really is a Santa or a tooth fairy...since these together with the belief that there is a God, have the same amount of scientifically tested evidence...none...zip...zero.

Let us know when you have testable, verifiable, observable, repeatable evidence to support your hypothesis that there is a God. You can submit it in any scientific journal for peer review and let's see if independent verification can produce the same results.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 11:43 PM

rr3: Maybe reasoning, would have been a better answer for you? Like i said, i don''t debate!

-- Posted by Jo on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 10:34 PM

I saw that before news and I thought it was a really silly answer. He has no basis for his beliefs.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 9:40 PM

Jo maybe you have been looking in the wrong places!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 9:39 PM

Dr. Dawkins..."what if you are wrong?"

Richard Dawkins responds to the question:


-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 9:24 PM

rr3: From experience! I was one of those caught up in The New World Order,Losing a lot of Years in Manufactureing, for any kink of retirement. (by the way this is not a sob story)Then i tried to build some retirement at 2 other companies. Shut down too! I tried Police Work,and found i was to susceptible to Killing the freek's i was trying to Protect the People from,good move on my part! Correction's was the same thing ,i was turning into sum of the slugs that was locked up!

That was what shaped my thinking to some extent. So then it was the Banking system, security! Got 14 years before illness, that took me out of things! So i have dealt with all kinds of society! I always found myself leaning towards the weak and unfortunate ,don't know why.I haven't figured it out yet! Well enough Psychoanalysis! Hope this stops your woundering rr3. Have a good nite!

-- Posted by Jo on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 8:27 PM

Jo - I know you didn't intend to put anyone down about their beliefs. I believe you have a good heart and wish the best for others, regardless of how they believe, as long as their intentions are honest.

Although I'm a believer and accepted Christ as my savior (at around the age of "accountability," rr3) I never comdemn anyone for the way they believe or not. Many people who profess to be Christian are only fooling themselves.

I think you and I see life in much the same way - live and let live, and try to do right by others - the Golden Rule business. It's a shame that some only know how to look down on all those who don't think the same way they do. I believe God will have something to say to them when the time comes.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 6:45 PM

Jo just want to ask where your values in life come from? How do you determine good from bad?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 4:58 PM

Slater: In Post ,on the subject of Religion. I didn't mean to put anyone down about their belief's,i respect everyone's choice,it's there to make! When i spoke of people using Religion, is watching Politicians, Pastor's and a lot of ordinary People, using Religious fear tactics to control! (Hypocrites),) i feel they are in more trouble, than i, I feel it's a lot of comfort to some when their Dying! I know it was for my Mother, and some other's i've known, and i was grateful for that! My fear is the dying process! Will it be good or bad? Not what happens afterwards. That's why i believe in Euthanasia. There is just to much suffering,& in life,for me to believe in some higher power. Life is the way it is, good or bad! I guess it would be great to think there is an after-life! What your After-life is to me is the loving thoughts your Family & others have of you when you pass! Hope i made it clear to those who believe! Believe the way you want, but live it Honestly. Something to think about? Politicians be ware!

-- Posted by Jo on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 4:45 PM

okr i just thought maybe you posted your links as fact or something you believed. Or maybe just propoganda?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 8:36 AM

Slater if a child dies before the age of accountability then they go to heaven. Here's a link explaining that: http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accou...

Being a good person will not earn us a spot in heaven. Even is we could follow the ten commandments all of our life it wouldn't happen Christ says no one enters heaven accept through him.

We should not constantly prop people up with entitlements because they don't want to do for themself. People need help now and then but some need to be left to their own to make their choices good or bad.

As a Christian I don't think this is a never ending debate because we have the assurance after we accept salvation of our place in heaven. Satan will try to put doubts in our head but if we stay in God's word then we can defeat Satan. Romans 8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 7:12 AM

midniterebel: Not a dumb question, a good question. You did not know the context.

Mr.xray: My comment arose from your post of 3:00 a.m. on 5-29-10.

You spoke of control. You berated government which is a tool. In a democracy it is supposed to be a tool of the people. Not so in our country at this time. It is a tool of the corporatocracy. So your attacks on government is beating the wrong horse.

Responsibility for our current dilemma lies with the corporatocracy, but ultimately with we the people for allowing it to wrest control from us.

Your later response spoke of controls which is not the same thing. Whether the people or corporations are in control changes everything.

rr3: To your questions re: God, and Moses. I don't know, there is no way I can know.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 3:27 AM

Thank you mrxray the info is much appricated.

I know I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed but I ain't the dullest either.

I have my oppions on alot of the subject matter in this forum, but sometimes ya'll bounce around so much or don't respond for days(wich I understand) or even not at all that somtimes it's like an oppion falls upon deaf ears or eyes in this case.

Also trying to find the links to prove a point well like I said I'm not the sharpest tool.

Once again thank you for your responce and I'll let ya'll intellectuals back to your conversation.

-- Posted by midniterebel on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 2:49 AM

Control is power. Regulation is a means to maintain power. Control is an existing condition. Regulation is an action arising from a position of control.

Example: Our government is controlled by corporations. Our government at demand from, and for the benefit of those controllers, makes, and enforces regulations that must be obeyed by we the people.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 2:49 AM

Gotta love Obama and his Chicago Thugs offering (illegally) a position within the admin, probably the Sec of Navy, to Sestak to get out of the campaign against Spector....

AND you have to love the White house saying that "they" did a review of white house actions in this situation and they found nothing wrong... Is that not like taking the word of BP in the Oil leak in the Gulf and their saying that they reviewed the circumstances and they found that they did nothing wrong?

And where is the majority of the main stream media on this issue? They asked a couple of answer but there has not been the horrible crying out for heads like they have always done against Bush or any other President that they did not like.

I am just waiting for the sacrificial lamb from within the Administration that is going to step up and take one for the "team" so that Obama will be able to sidestep this illegal activity that allegedly broke 3 or more federal statues.

I wonder who it will be? They have already tried to blame B. Clinton.

Speaking of the oil spill, we all know that it is all Bush's fault.. I mean just listen to Obama and Pelosi.... another issue that they cannot lead on and do not have the guts to stand up and actually 'lead' the nation instead of playing blame games.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 12:25 AM

I feel statements like OKR's stating that he/she feels like I am intelligent therefore he/she does not need to discuss something with me is a failed logic in an attempt to either justify some point or subtlely put me down... LOL

Frankly, I have reread the my previous posts and I am not sure why OKR decided to post about controls versus regulations...

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 12:18 AM

Basically there is not a difference between control and regulation... control, I guess, would imply some sort of self set rules for ones own utilization where there is no real punishment if you fail to uphold those controls. While Regulations would be something governmentally or societally imposed with a set of consequences for breaking of those rules.

Example. Controls within an industry would be industry or business specific guidelines and rules that controlled production while regulation would be government imposed rules on those businesses.... a business could break their rules (controls) and still pass off the product to the consumer with no real consequence if caught by the consumer, but if they broke the regulations and got caught, then there would be set punishments for breaking of those rules.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 30, 2010, at 12:14 AM

okr do you believe that Moses was high when he received the ten commandments? Do you believe there was a Moses or a ten commandments? Do you believe in God? Your post raises numerous questions about you. Personal experience maybe?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 5:17 PM


I was always told the only dumb question is one unasked, hope you don't believe me as unintelligent,but I gotta ask what is the difference between controll and regulation?

Please don't think I'm tryin to be a smart@$$ or trying to start an argument I truly do not know

-- Posted by midniterebel on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 4:11 AM

Mr.Xray I believe that you will agree that control, and regulation are not the same thing?

You are an intelligent person so I will not spell out where one is lead by that comparison.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 3:11 AM

nanadot... the point to be shorter about it is this. UNTIL society fixes its problem with individuals failing to see the harm that their own choices cause to other people then not even the government can fix our problems, no amount of legislation and rules can prevent or fix any problem that we have or might have in the future. The 'government' is made up of the exact same type of people that are in corporations (big or small) or families and communities.

You are attempting to state that somehow a corrupted government system and humans, that abide by the same society rules as the people in priviate industry, can some how come together without corruption simply because 'they' are the 'government' That is a fools errand....

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 3:05 AM

I guess a trip to the Holy Land is not the same as a trip in the Holy Land just as far away is not the same as far out.




-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 3:05 AM

nanadot: Not one word I have stated on here can suggest that I believe in total removal of all government regulation or oversight.

HOWEVER, you continually bash and put down and say that capitalism is failing us in the US and that we need more and more government control, control even over what the economy provides in goods or services and to what quantity. You advocate for a bigger and bigger government with all of its inefficiencies and all of its sucking of money or capital from the nation's economy because every government employee is a tax payer funded drain that does not make a profit nor does it even break even.

Back to my point, because you continually cry about about capitalism, you are failing to see that capitalism is NOT the problem but humans and human nature is the problem. Until you acknowledge THAT fact you will continue to fail to understand that EVERY type of economy will have the exact same failure. Why? Because no matter what type of economy/society you want, socialism, communism, government managed economy, capitalism, dictatorships, what have you... the exact same failing will cause its demise... What is that failure? Human imperfection. A more socialist society, a dictatorship, a fascist state, statism, socialism, capitalism ALL are totally dependent on people performing honestly and refusing to give in to human nature to provide for ones own self and own family.

Our failings within corporations, politics, economy, states, communities, individual families and individuals all boil down to society fails demand personal responsibility and fails to provide adequate consequences for inappropriate choices. Example: Because our society has gradually become more and more accepting of sex within TV ads, TV shows, Movies, News discussions, celebrity behavior, we have a horrible problem with teenagers emulating those they, and society, uphold as roll models. The Teens during their most impressionable years are drowned with the message that less clothing is cool and that sex is ok. Heck, in Marshall we even have doctors, apparently, that provide fertility drugs to 18-19 years olds because Medicaid will pay for them. All this and more leads to problems with teenagers having unprotected sex, which is a CHOICE, and having babies where neither partner has a career or a means to adequately support a baby. This, in turn is a drain on society and a harm to the economy and to those who pay taxes to support the ENTITLEMENT programs that the liberals hand out like candy which contributes to the never endiing cycle of LEARNED behavior that is handed down to generation after generation until many people consider teen pregnancy just a norm within our society, instead of a harm to society as it should be viewed.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 3:00 AM

An interesting trip News.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 29, 2010, at 2:47 AM


I was just thinking about how straight and narrow your belief is - much like my own, except I don't blame religion for causing the hypocrisy that comes from some who claim to be religious. A truly religious person doesn't feel compelled to be the authority and to make that known to the world.

I grew up being educated about God and Jesus, and it became a part of who I am. I don't claim to be a good example of a Chhristian, but in my heart I believe that God knows I'm doing my best.

Your belief is like the old western movie, where the bad guy loses to the good guy, where everything is black and white, and that's much the way I believe. People say no, reality isn't like that, and my response is that it could be, if everyone had a good heart.

Wishful thinking, for sure, but it's what helps us get along.

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:42 PM

I have always felt Religion is a sad, mysterious, depressing, powerful, persuasive and a very dangerous thing in the world as it is being used today ! Its more powerful than anything. When People are so devoted to every unproven passage. If you are a devout Christian,you are, in my Opinion a dangerous person,if you can be persuaded to the taking of your own life or someone else's! Jone's Town for one! Some of the most heinous act's of cruelty have been directed by Religion!The Salem Witch Hunts! All of these things were carried out by educated people. When you can control the mind of sane individuals!I think that will be part of our down fall? But to each his own? I don't think i want to be in that group,because there is no reasoning! you don't need religion to be a good Person, you need Religion to make others believe your a good person! My Opinion! If it makes any sense!

-- Posted by Jo on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:26 PM

I suppose I'm a rationalist of sorts. I want to believe the best about people until they prove that my faith was misplaced.

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:20 PM

There's nothing quite so refreshing as a good read from The Bible...Chapter and Verse


-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:07 PM

rr3 - Please see my post in the other forum.

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 9:28 PM

Nanadot he is your God too, he is anyone's God that chooses to accept him. That's why he is God he is everyone's on a personal level. Just remember eternity is a long time to be wrong!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 8:24 PM

Here ya go, News:


-- Posted by Slater on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 3:07 PM

evidence God exists


keep in mind if you are convinced there is no God then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. no amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. but God promises that any that seek him shall find him.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 12:03 PM

news what facts do you hold on to for natural selection or you just believe in the existence of it?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:25 AM

Something has called to mind...have any of you seen the movie "The Men Who Stare at Goats"?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 11:14 AM


you preach a lot about what you call "facts" ... but you have a precarious hold on facts yourself.

before offering your "opinion" about the bible being written by uneducated "goat herders ... sitting on rocks" you should do a little study about who the authors of the books of the bible actually were. they were physicians, accountants, engineers, politicians, irs agents (tax collectors), and theological scholars with a few zealots, shepherds and fishermen thrown in for good measure. just the facts.


-- Posted by zeke on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 8:58 AM

Random evolution? lol lol lol...

Natural selection is anything but random lol lol lol.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 8:21 AM

news I'm confused do you believe there is a God or not. Believing in the existence of one is not rational by any stretch of the imagination. Your talking in circles here buddy to justify the means.

Do you believe in itelligent design or random evolution or maybe just the existence of it?

Atheist can only gravitate toward the believe there is a God because you can't prove there is not one. Since your the educated one give me evidence that there is no God.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 7:12 AM


Your link is to bible verses.

The bible is not scientifically gathered, factual evidence of anything. Its a collection of books of mythology written a very long time ago by goat herders with no significant education sitting around on rocks speculating.

You cannot justify faith with faith...that is circular logic and circular logic is no logic at all.

Please submit your scientifically gathered, testable, repeatable, verifiable, observable evidence to a scientific journal for peer review and if it passes such scrutiny, then I for one will be happy to hop on board with you...until then...there is no scientific evidence to support your hypothesis.

Oh and by the way, no one has more respect for the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as viewed from a secular position, than I mate. He was indeed a great teacher and a wonderful, loving man who cared deeply for the poor and downtrodden.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 3:28 AM

There is a big difference between saying that a person does not accept a notion or concept until said notion or concept is proved with factual evidence gathered by scientific methodology which leads to that and only that notion or concept and saying that one is certain that such notion or concept does not exist.

Rationalists...which is what best describes my position... or "New Atheists" as we are sometimes referred to, state that we are very happy to believe in the existence of God...as soon as you submit undeniable proof based upon evidence gathered using scientific methodology and submitted for peer review.

There is no faith involved in that.

Thus far we have not seen even one shred of said scientifically gathered evidence.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 3:17 AM

Who is God?


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 1:43 AM

okr sorry but I make no sense of your post.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 1:41 AM

news Atheism is a religion because you accept it on faith that there is no God.

You want me to produce scientific evidence for God when you can't support atheism? Where's the hypocrisy in that?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 1:40 AM


As the atheists have said many times...please submit your scientific evidence to scientific journals for peer review where it can be repeated, verified, observed, and tested.

As regards disproving God's existence, scientific methodology is designed to prove a hypothesis...it is not designed to disprove anything at all. In scientific methodology you have only 4 possibilities: Hypothesis, Null Hypothesis, False Positive, and False Negative. In the end, either a hypothesis is or isn't proved. Its that simple.

In addition, Atheism is not a religion. It has no acceptance of faith (unsupported belief) nor does it adhere to any scientifically unproved concepts of ultimate magical beings (supernatural beings) It has none of the structures of religion and does not meet the definition of religion.


"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."



attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.



the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.


Finally, why is the topic of religion any different than any other topic? We certainly are free to discuss one's taste in art. music, politics, etc. What makes religion off limits? Just because you choose to believe in magic does not mean we don't have the right to question your evidence...of which you have none.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 28, 2010, at 1:09 AM

NanaDot I was sick to the pit of my stomach after viewing the underwater shots I had posted earlier. We humans are like skin cancers on Gaia. Sooner or later we will be repelled.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:56 PM

News: Sorry to hear of your familie's medical problems.

rr3: You stated that you had the right to refute News' opinion with the truth. What you attempted to do was refute his opinion with your opinion as to what is the truth. You refuted your own argument as well as his with your reason as to why his was not provable.

Sorry to barge in but somebody has to stick up for the infirm. ;)

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:50 PM

And now for something completely different. http://www.truthout.org/files/images/TT-...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:40 PM


Thank you so much for your kind words and your prayers.

My med problems are not too bad...I have to have a minor organ removed. I know that sounds bad, but its NOT a kidney or a lung thank goodness, lol...and its something I can live without just fine. I will be a little uncomfortable with out it, but its no big adjustment.

Frankly, I worry a lot more about my wife.

The poor thing can barely walk due to a work-place injury she received a few years ago. She has to stay on the couch most of the time, and even short trips without a wheel chair are nearly impossible. It just keeps getting worse and knee replacement is definitely on the horizon. However, we have been told there is not much hope for her back. That they can't replace a back like they can her knee.

She really is a trooper though. She never complains, she never feels sorry for herself, and she still tries to do as much as she can despite her limitations. She is a major source of inspiration for my sorry, lazy butt, lol.

Thank goodness we have socialized medicine in Australia!

Her former employer's insurance is supposed to be paying for it but we have had to sue them to get them to take responsibility -- despite the workman's comp laws. Big insurance would have preferred to just put it on the backs of the tax-payers. Funny that how corporations just ignore the law until you finally drag them into court and then the Judge has to force them to meet their legal obligation.

And I don't know what we have done without the Union's support.

The Union paid for the attorney, and they have been a major force in helping us, as well as a source of moral support. The Union has stuck by my wife all the way, never backing down, never giving up, and never letting the employer or the insurance company get away with breaking the law. I don't know what we would have done with out the Union!

Fortunately, since we have socialized medicine we were able to get her treated right away despite the attempt of Big Insurance to try to skip their responsibilities, and we at least have the pain down to a minimum now.

One last thing Nanadot...thanks so much for the Gandhi quote...his words ring as true today as the day he said it.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:38 PM

The Dawkins video is not educational or funny. As for anyone trying to discredit him he needs no help he does that just fine by himself. Atheism may be your religion and that is fine but as a christian I have to say you are wrong.




Atheism is a negative position because you have to prove something in this case God does not exist. Atheist cannot prove that God does't exist. You can use all the common arguments atheist use but be respectful for what I believe too. Here's some things to consider before you debate christians.


Don't get me wrong news you have every right to post what you want but as a christian I have the right to refute it with the truth.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:29 PM


Actually, I only claim to have the education that qualifies me as an economist. I have listed my qualifications before. I see no reason to go into that again.

As to what I do for a living...I don't do much. Mostly I just manage my investments which have not been doing well for awhile. Its that darn market risk thing. Most of the time I just enjoy all Sydney has to offer which tends to keep me pretty busy. I am working on some projects around the house too including a new deck and a new driveway. I fiddle around with my violin and a few other musical instruments, and here lately I have been dealing with some medical issues (I will be having some surgery soon) and my wife has some medical issues that also demand my attention. So while I wish I could have weighed in on some of the subjects discussed here, I just don't have the time to do the research sometimes.

As to how I reply to questions...thank you for your advice, but I prefer to answer questions in my own way...despite the length of said answer.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 9:07 PM

News - Instead of going on and on about how valuable your time is, you could have simply said no thanks, it's a subjec i'm not interested in.

My point was strictly to engage you in a discussion, a rational and calm discussion as you put it some time ago. You claim to be an economist, and I expected that you'd have an opiniion on the hypothesis I brought up. It was that simple.

I'm one who forgives and forgets. Maybe you are, maybe not. Your responses tell me you aren't, at least in my case, and that's fine. I, too, can choose other ways to utilize my time.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 8:50 PM


The empirical evidence certainly supports your position.

Civilization cannot function, and has never functioned, without the cooperation of the members of that civilization. Cooperation mandates both personal and collective responsibility, and with out such we are reduced to the level of wild animals.

Civilization requires rules by which the members of the civilization...be they people or businesses...must abide by in order for that civilization to function.

Perhaps the question is who makes those rules?

Humanity has tried a number of approaches to answering this question. We have tried kings and emperors. We have tried authoritarian and totalitarian dictatorships. We have tried anarchy (no government at all). We have tried both of the 2 major forms of democracy.

Of all the methods we have utilized to answer the question of who in society makes the rules, the best answer seems to have come in the form of a republic. This is a form of democracy where the majority makes all the rules and is limited only in areas of specific rights of individuals such as free speech, right to trial, right to an attorney, etc, in order to protect the individual from tyranny of the majority.

It would be nice if extra-national, multi-national (non-American) corporations (such as all the oil companies) and intra-national corporations would take the initiative upon themselves to institute rules and policies that would make it unnecessary for the majority to impose safety rules upon them. However, corporations only exist for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only...1.) to make a profit and 2.) to remain solvent. Given this factor, safety...which costs money, thus reducing profit...is often left by the wayside. Market forces have proved ineffective in enforcing such self-policing, and as a result, we the majority are left with no other choice but to impose safety rules upon corporations.

That is our right as the majority and rightly so.

Any corporation that fails to follow the rules we the majority set, will ultimately suffer the consequences of our wrath.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 7:16 PM


Reasonable excuses are fine.

A laborer with a broken arm who cannot do his job because of his broken arm certainly has a good excuse for staying home and recuperating. That is probably perfectly acceptable.

A laborer who excuses his unwillingness to work for free because he feels his time is better spent working for income is also probably well justified.

My time is scarce and I prefer to use my time in ways that I find most constructive and beneficial for me. I do make charitable contributions but I make those charitable contributions to those causes and efforts I believe to be most constructive. That is a prerogative we, as a free people, all share. Contributions made under duress are neither charitable nor are they constructive.

So while I appreciate your invitation to engage in an ongoing discussion, I hope you can understand that there are times that I must decline such invitations as I have other more pressing engagements.

Surely the rational mind, would agree it is the individual and only the individual that can best make such decisions for him or herself.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 5:14 PM

Eric, you're joking, right?


-- Posted by missy08 on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 11:29 AM

ND - Thanks for your comment and the link. A discussion of the topic is somewhat pointless, but that isn't unlike most everything else that's discussed on here.

I posed the subject to News, expecting him to offer a comment much like yours, not an elaborate excuse, but since the post was from me I should have anticipated what I got.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 10:50 AM

I am posting a video of a lecture by Dr. Richard Dawkins on the "New Atheism" I hope may be of interest to some of the readers in this forum.

As usual with Dr. Dawkins, it is both education and entertaining at the same time.

One of the minor issues he deals with is the phony Dawkins videos floating around on the net -- some of which he shows on screen and which would be be quite funny if only their creators weren't attempting to fraudulently discredit him. Never-the-less, Dr. Dawkins, in good form, also has a pretty good laugh about them.

Anyway, to anyone interested in seeing this lecture you will find it here:

"The New Atheism" by Richard Dawkins, AAI 2007


-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 27, 2010, at 4:45 AM


What I hope you learned from my reply to your request is that I do not provide free economic analysis unless I choose to do so voluntarily.

I have to pay the my mechanic, my lawyer, and my groundskeeper their fees for services rendered.

Why do you think I have to work for free at your request? Don't I also have a right to charge a fee for requested services?

Do you tell your accountant or your attorney that somehow because they won't provide you with free service on demand it is a reflection on their professional capacity to render said service or reflects a substandard of said service?

Somehow I don't think you do, but judging by your explicit comment you seem to think its ok to require such of me. Do you really think that is fair?

I make comments here when I want to and on subjects I choose to comment on. I don't work for free on demand. My refusal to provide free economic analysis on demand in this forum is not a reflection on my ability or qualifications to do so, but rather it reflects my preference for the freedom to make that choice myself, and in this case...I choose not to.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 11:23 PM

Rr3: You are wrong about one things.... you DO know of a business that functions without any concern for turning a profit. or actually making enough money to actually PAY for its employees... The government is one of, if not the largest employer and it does NOT generate a profit, nor does it function to provide a consumable product or service that people actually pay for. Government workers are the biggest drain on the economy and the unfunded mandates that the government applies to the states and local governments are a harm to the actual working people and also function to drain capital from the economy, money that could otherwise be used at the state and local levels to actually HELP people and develop programs most suited to the local level.

Again, I go to my example of Unions.... they cause a GREATER increase in price and a severe reduction in actual competition by forcing a set, but very high hourly wage, for the exact same work that a local employer could and would do, with local people WILLING To work for those wages that are more in line with local cost of living. Example. I worked for a contractor in Chillicothe in the late 1980s and I was paid 14-16 bucks an hour to do concrete work, form setting and pouring and some finishing... and I was getting paid the going rate and it was an adequate wage to support 3 kids and a wife. However, on GOVERNMENT jobs my boss was mandated by law to pay me 25-30 bucks an hour. In Trenton Missouri, they are building a hospital. The going rate for carpenters, concrete workers, and metal workers in the local area is under 50 bucks an hour. BUT with benefits, the UNION people that were awarded the job over local contractors are making anywhere from 75-100 bucks an hour or more (both local and Union wages include benefits)

The fixed, or controlled (or whatever other name you want to give it) economy does not function to increase competition which would function to balance out the wages needed by the people working with the desires of the people who own the company, but instead artificially drives up the cost of products and services dramatically.

I agree our society has a huge problem with personal integrity and professionalism and caring and honesty and ethics and virtues and values. BUT the GOVERNMENT cannot EVER mandate those things, only societal pressure and a demand for INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY with high and harsh penalties for those who abuse ANY system of laws and rules.

The problem is NOT capitalism or profit, the problem is that society as a whole does not DEMAND personal responsibility, we all think OUR child(ren) are perfect and give them every excuse, we all find ways to bend any set of rules to benefit ourselves, and businesses find ways to get around government imposed rules and regulations.

This goes back to the problem with our society holding sports, movie, TV stars and other so-called celebrities in high esteem and how we are willing to pay 150 bucks to go to a football game or pay 8+ bucks to go to a movie in the city or sit like zombies in front of the TV for American Idol or Dancing with stars, and ignore how screwed up they are and quickly forgive them for all their 'mistakes'. Or how often we see politicians from BOTH parties 'forgetting' about property in Dominican Republic and not paying taxes even though we are on the Tax Law Writing Committee, or refusing to publish our college documents and writings when they run for President, or taking bribe money from special interest groups like British Petroleum, or Unions or NRA and the likes.

The problem is NOT the type of economy, or capitalism or the lack of FREE universal health care and the huge inefficient government trying to provide all things like Greece has been doing.

The Problem is that each and every person has been worn down and become weak and as each generation passes, we are more and more willing to give in to the political correctness agenda and are more and more willing to look the other way. We just accept corruption in DC, and if we are affiliated with a specific political party then we blame the entire problem on the OTHER party and cannot see past the nose of the party we favor.

All it would take to turn this nation around would be for SOCIETY to stand up and DEMAND that each person and business take responsibility for their own actions. If you have a child with no education, it is NOT the fault of the government or society. If you CHOOSE to smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol to excess, eat poorly, it is NOT the fault of society or the government.

Just look to the economic problems/recession/depression we are in. NO One is forcing the people who controlled and/or monitored Fannie/Freddie to stand up and take their lashes and in fact they are STILL protecting them with this new so-called financial reform that Obama is trying to push through. IT is ridiculous to even consider that it is the TYPE of economy which is causing our problems.... I would laugh were it to not be so sad that so many people cannot see this

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 10:47 PM

Thanks Eric.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 10:46 PM

All quiet? Hmmm.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 10:46 PM

James O'Keefe "Acorn Pimp" Pleads Guilty to Charges of Entering Senator's Office Under False Pretenses in Federal Court.

O'Keefe sentenced to 3 years probation, fine of $1,500, and 75 hours of community service.


-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 8:13 PM


I have not been party to the discussion you refer to nor have I read any of those comments.

As to the research and analysis you are asking me to do...well...it sounds like you are asking me to do quite a few hours of work...for free.

Do you ask your accountant, physician, and/or attorney to work for free also?

I normally charge quite a fee for the kind of analysis you are asking me to do, so I hope you will understand that I decline to do so for free...after all, I did have to pay for the education that enables me to do said analysis and it wasn't cheap (I am still paying off those student loans after all these years}.

As to your comment that "Marx's thoughts on the subject no longer carry any weight," could you please expand on that. I fail to see any evidence to suggest that is a correct conclusion, however I am certainly willing to assist you with peer review.

I look forward to reading how you came to that conclusion.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 7:39 PM


The recent talk about profits started me thinking about the law of diminishing returns and the discussions during the past couple of centuries about its interpretation. You're the formally-educated economist in our midst, so my comment is primarily expressed in your direction.

I know that Marx's thoughts on the subject no longer carry any weight, and I haven't kept up with any recent discussion, so maybe you can educate us.

I'm wondering how this postulate would apply to a global economy, or even if the extrapolation can be made.

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 5:55 PM

Hey Jo,

News got it right when he said we can learn from you. Not only are you a clear thinker, but you have time on your side. Younger people could learn much from you if they'd give themselves the chance.

You've helped keep us straight up to this point, so don't stop sharing your wisdom and inspiration!

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 5:35 PM

We the people are despised by our president.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 26, 2010, at 6:16 AM


Great to hear from you. I hope everything is going Ok.

...and I for one am always very happy to read your opinions. For someone who thinks they aren't the sharpest tool in the shed...you sure do have a lot of wisdom. I always read your posts and I always learn something from you that I didn't know before!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 11:48 PM


Yes we Americans do seem to have our priorities pretty screwed up when all we are willing to do for our 9/11 Heroes is give them a pat on the back, tell them "good job," and then send them home to die from the poisons in their body they received in the line of duty while going above and beyond that duty to save American lives while risking their own lives.

However to be fair, its not the Democrats who are refusing to help our Heroes who are suffering as a direct result of what they did on our behalf...

...Its the Republican Party...the conservatives...that are refusing to help our Heros.

The Republican/Teabagger/Libertarian Party should be ashamed of themselves!!

Folks we have an election coming up in November.

This is your opportunity to show the Republicans what we Americans think of scumbags like the Republican Party that turns their back on our American Heroes!


-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 11:27 PM

Nana Dot : you sound like a very intelligent, tough Lady,Your my kind of People. Your post is profound and caring! Keep it up ! All you guys make good sense. To me! I don't know if that's a compliment or not ,coming from me,not being the sharpest tool in the box,but i mean what i say! Always have! Nebraska, Slater, News Across, White Tornado! Your all included even the one's i don't agree with! Ha Have a good nite!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 11:12 PM

nanadot you are referring to net profit. that is what a company has after paying expenses such as labor. Investors may not do the hard labor but they take the risk to invest their money. The risk being that they could lose their investment. Our government needs to run certain things we cant't do locally but they need to empower our local governments to be able to utilize things that they need in the case of emergencies. For example if I live in an area prone to flooding and they tell me it is going to flood and I don't leave whose fault is that? If I live on the coast and they tell me a hurricane is coming and don't leave whose fault is that? I thought it was Bush's fault but now it's Reagan's woww!!!!! Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 9:28 PM

"GOP opposes 9/11 workers' health fund"


If we have money to kill with...we have money to heal with. Our 9/11 heroes deserve better than to be treated like this.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 8:52 PM

okaaay nanadot how many companies do you run that doesn't make a profit? Your are wrong wages are profit at the end of a period of time the company has a gross profit out of that they pay things such as labor. I don't know anyone that starts and makes a company successful that sits on their butts. The owner or manager ususally works the hardest and carries the risk of success or failure. Sometimes I wish I only had the responsibility of the worker that can go home at the end of 8 hours and only have to worry about being to work on time tomorrow. Doesn't sound like you have run a business.

The government is necessary for national security, roads, bridges etc. but things we can do ourselves we need the freedom to do. Everything we do on our own is much more efficient then when the government does it. You need to take a serious look at social security, medicare, the postal service, etc. Even if they were supposed to make zero profit they are a dismal failure.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 8:35 PM

Slater providing a good or service is a noble thing to do but we have to have a profit to put food on the table and gas in the tank.

Not a global economist nor claim to be but if a company can buy foreign goods and sell them here cheaper than we can make them we need to ask why.

A company without a profit does not have any workers at least not for long. We need to lower or eliminate corporate taxes so companies can put more people to work. The more people working the more taxpayers we have. The more people able to purchase goods and services. Right now the job market is a buyers market because the employer does not have to offer the premium pay and benefit package to buy an employee. Wages will keep going down as a result of high unemployment plus demand for goods and services are not as strong as it would be if everyone was working. Profit may not be the only motivator but it is the strongest. High taxation kills an economy because it kills business when they lose the ability to compete.

We need to put people to work so it will become a sellers market instead of many competing for one job we have one being offered 2 or 3 jobs then you can name your price.

Not sure if that answered your question but I took a stab at it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 7:27 PM

nanadot I never said or implied that anyone was lazy foreign, domestic or otherwise. Are some people lazy? Yes. As for illegals I don't care if they work hard or not they are still ILLEGAL.

I have been there no job, medical bills and no unemployment insurance period and I worked through it without whining about my situation. I know we have it good in this country because no matter how bad your situation is just look around somebody else has it worse. It has always been like that and always will be. I don't feel guilty for having a good life in America do you?

I don't agree with all the bailouts because bad business models should be allowed to fail because down the road these same companies will want more money from us. Interesting statistic I heard today is that approximately only 42% of wages are coming from the private sector the rest from government jobs. That is unsustainable.

I agree that we the people have dropped the ball but we need to make an attempt to get it back at the voting booth.

One of our problems is we don't want to be inconvenienced with life we want someone to plan for us when we should have been given the tools(not government control) and been taught to plan for our own future. What happens to a lot of people is the future is now and we are not ready for it.

People need to be empowered not controlled.

My apologies if I didn't cover something just repost it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 7:02 PM

rr3 - I just read your post to Jo, and your statement that the U.S. is the wealthiest and greatest country in the world prompts me to ask you a hypothetical question, which you most likely won't, or can't, answer, but I'm hoping you'll at least take a stab at it:

Question: A global economy suggests a more balanced exchange of goods and services between countries. If, for example, every enterprise in the U.S. views profit as the single greatest motivator for conducting its business, how do you see this affecting the workforce?

-- Posted by Slater on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 6:29 PM

Jo I agree with you that we have lost honor in government and society in general. In the 90's we were told that character didn't matter.

I'm proud that you are opinionated and not wishy washy we need more people with an opinion and not afraid to express it. Thanks

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 5:59 PM

okr thats the first I had read about the human development index but I see it was developed by the UN so I'm not sure we had any input. Thanks for the links interesting to learn about. But notice the European Union(27countries) is all that beats us in GDP.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 5:55 PM

rr3: A less specific answer to your specific question is take a look at the top ten countries based on standard of living. Norway, and Sweden ranked one, and two. http://able2know.org/topic/55762-1

And here is another list . Note every one of the countries above us on this one (a lowly ranking of thirteen) is much more socialistic than we. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Devel...

Just one more. Note the high placement of Australia. Is it any wonder that News Across is at times expansive? http://www.marketingcharts.com/topics/eu...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 4:14 PM

I agree there is a bunch of misfit's everywhere but that dosen't dominate our Society or say there isn't a better Social System! When you see our so called Leader's getting off, and not even being charged or held accountable for their Crime's! And that's an assault on the American People. When you have a system like that it's time for a change. We keep Voting People in ,and most of them keep ripping us off! Thing's are not like they use to be! There is no Honor anymore in our Government.So if that's what People want

The System work's well for them.Im not a follower like most! We could Blah, Blah, till the end of time and nothing would change. That's why i won't debate anything,im to opinionated.

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM

rr3: Socialism.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 3:48 PM

Jo where I come from hard work is a way of life if you want something you work for it. You can look at hard work as a curse or a blessing. I look at as a blessing because I am able to go out and do whatever I set my mind to. Granted some people can't and there should be assistance for them. Regardless of what you think about capitalism it works and some form of it let you be where you are at today financially. Government interfers with capitalism and blames the results on capitalism. I'm not sure what you mean about people being left out but most have a choice to do something or do nothing. The ones that choose to do nothing should be left behind. Why do we have immigrants from socialist countrys come over here and become so successful? They choose not to remain slaves to socialism so they come here to have the freedom to become successful. I can't figure why people think that is so bad. Even with all of our faults we are still the best country to live in but things can change. Capitalism is what made us the wealthiest and greatest country in the world today. why should we socialize it or apologize for it?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 2:42 PM

rr3: Iv been trying to Educate myself about Democracy. Dem. and Rep. Liberals & Conservatives,far right ,far Left, middle! The more i read the worse it gets. It's no wonder i took no interest in Politic in my youth,and found out that was the wrong thing to put aside! Even though it dosn't have a lot to do with who will run thing's in the end! I've lived a long time and have seen nothing but, People being left out of thing's. Coming out of the second World War, There were opportunities ,for most , but there were still a lot of people hurting. Some would not have made it ,or their kid's, without Social Program's! I have an Idea were we get all the intellectual's together and find out how we can see that not one Human should go without food , healthcare, a decent place to live, be clean, and be respected as a person! No Country or Government should be owned by such a few! WE are not Slaves, we own this Country! This Capitalistic system stinks, don't work! This hard working crap is , just that, a lot of crap. We are the Corporate and Government's future,with out us they are nothing! There is a lot of Socialist Movement's , and some sound much more attractive then what we have now!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 2:18 PM

okr I'll bite what is so good about Scandinavia?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 1:41 PM

rr3: Although Jo is perfectly capable of answering the question you asked him regarding why he thinks socialism works I could not resist a one word response to your question.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 12:18 PM

Jo I'm curious why you think socialism works.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 11:36 AM

Oklahoma Reader - there haven't been any restrictions on my comments. I just choose to comment less, and at the moment, I'm out of the office. Thanks for asking.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 7:53 AM

nanadot you say Obama didn't start most of this mess. What is he doing to get us out of it? Does shifting the blame for the mess excuse Obama from doing anything about it?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 7:09 AM

I see on the news this morning that the states affected by the oil spill are taking charge where the federal government has failed. Kind of like Arizona.


So Congress ready to increase tax on oil so we the consumer can pay for it. I bet that will fix it! Oh thank you Mr. Obama please I want to pay more gas I think it is too cheap. I found out why the oil spill hasn't been stopped is that our incompetent government is in charge.


I just want to thank nanadot and okr for their great comments keep them coming.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 7:06 AM

I'm glad to see that some are seeing the light that Obama is NOT doing the job that he promised to do.

okr may a suggest something that works for me open two windows side by side to the speak out(politics) page one window you can scroll down to the comment section and the other window you can reference what you are commenting about works for me.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 5:59 AM

Jo you are dead on with your post. Good to hear from you.

Along with many other people I also believe that President Obama is destined to be a one term president. I go it one step further though.

If we are still mired up to our necks in middle eastern sand by the time the 2012 Democratic primary rolls around he may not be the nominee of the Democratic Party.

There are eery similarities between the presidencies of Barak Obama, and Lyndon Johnson. Not the least of these is the failure of each to fathom that they pursue, or pursued a war that was bound to come to no good end. I think in Obama's case, as was Johnson's he will definitely be challenged from within his own party by an antiwar populist candidate. By then the wars in the sand will have proven to be such a disastrous mistake that he like Johnson, may choose to not seek the nomination. War, the albatross around the necks of each, will make feckless Obama's attempts to enact programs that will improve our nation, just as it did with Johnson.

Republican's should not be overcome with glee at such a development. The Republican establishment is also up to their necks in sand. A similar scenario is likely to develop on the right with an antiwar, anti-foreign involvement, populist candidate securing the Republican nomination. That would likely be Ron Paul.

So, reading the tea leaves far before the cup is empty tells me that the 2012 election could be a down to the wire affair with the common ground of both candidates being an avowal to immediately get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and to finally regulate, and punish the fat cats.

I believe that by then an ever angrier American public will accept nothing less.

Now who said I wasn't an optimist?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 1:01 AM

Eric, firstly thank you for the great job you do.

Secondly is there anyway you can put a post comment link on the political blog like the one on "Speak Out"? There may be other old geezers like me who by the time they have scrolled to the bottom of the comments have forgotten what they wanted to say. ;)

Thirdly, are Kathy, and the other employees of the paper now restricted from commenting on "Speak Out", and other blogs?

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 12:24 AM

You know, I always take comments that are posted on the blogs, whether left, right or center, with a grain of salt, but I'll be damned if rr3 hasn't caused me to be, as the line goes in the old Jimmy Buffet song, "down to my last shaker of salt".

So which is it this time rr3 you didn't comprehend that the fake Harry read quote that you presented as his words was not true, was satire from a right wing "humor site, or you just chose to be duplicitous?

Either way (and I can't think of a third possibility) you have just further eroded your crumbling credibility.

Good grief.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 25, 2010, at 12:12 AM

Well people ,looks like AIG gets off the hook! How in the hell do they think letting these Criminals off is going too stop all the White Collar Crime that bleeds the Public of their money! And here is BP doing all this damage to the Gulf Coast with the oil spill! They let Telecommunication' off early on,with Obama's take over! listening to our conversations! And here is Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, Rove,Armitage,and a number of other's for not taking action, for War Crime's ! So you tell me (Crime don't pay?) Obama i feel was are last hope for a peaceful end to all this good old boy crap in Washington,and it's beginning to look like he's not doing what we put him in there for.Not only to run this Country in a fare way for the People,but too take on these Corporate thieves! I kind of think he wants to give the illusion he doing something? I don't care how many Job's these Corporate crook's create, it's not worth it! I would like to be in a Federal position to go arrest each and everyone of these S O B'S! Especially,the Bush Administration For the unnecessary killing of our Guy' & Gal's ! This corporate crap is bad enough, but all this killing should be taken care of too! Seems like everyone has forgotten! Not me! I personally think! Obama better get tough, and know this will be his last term unless he gets these thing's done! These fools are going to call him a Socialist anyway! And if correcting the things is socialistic ,we need a little more Socialism, in this Country, it's all around us now, and work's very well, as far as im concerned! You have to admit,that there is a lot of strange thinking going on ,and it can't stay this way! Something or someone has to get a grip,and start putting people away for their action's!

-- Posted by Jo on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 11:32 PM

nanadot made you look!!!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 8:41 PM

Tea Parties vs. Unions in November

The two groups get much different media scrutiny.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 6:45 PM

sorry eric i got mine from your second link

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 5:21 PM

"The truth is not something that one can just be allowed to uncover for ones self. It must be properly shaped and molded by those that know best what the truth ought to be and how things ought to be presented so that it is perceived that way by the maximum number of people possible. This is why the mainstream media exists, to be the gatekeepers of news and information. You can't just have people going around undermining a carefully crafted meme with inconvenient facts!"

-Harry Reid on a lawsuit filed by the DNC that seeks to prevent Republicans from using Democrats own words against them.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 3:58 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Just a reminder to include sources when offering quoted material.

Google reports two sources for this quote.



It's too good to be true......


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 11:46 AM


Sorry bout that I really wasn't tryin to start an argument with ya I totally missed your post on the civial rights. yes it was helpful as to how the system works to bad we can't just live by the constition and 10 commandments as they were originaly written life would be a whole lot easier in my oppinion anyway.

-- Posted by midniterebel on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 7:00 AM

john henry's hammer

I can really empathize with how you feel. These are hard times in America, and it sure can be frustrating.

Yet, I can't help but feel that eventually it will all work out. We are Americans, and perhaps our greatest strength comes in our ability to eventually pull together and do what needs to be done to be successful as a Nation.

I think maybe FDR put it best when he said, "The only thing we have to fear...is fear itself."

It will all work out, mate...it really will...just hang in there with the rest of us and we will get this all sorted out eventually.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 24, 2010, at 12:44 AM

whatever you think mate. you da man!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 11:55 PM

rr3 - I found you on Google, and it even has excerpts from your Speak Out posts. :)

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 6:14 PM

Thank goodness we have rr3yv0 to keep the discussion flowing!

Thanks mate!

Hey maybe we could just switch from discussing democracy and civil rights to discussing the price of tea in China.

What do you think mate?

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 1:00 PM

i find it amazing news know what topic we all want to discuss!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 12:15 PM


Scroll down...I addressed the issue of civil rights.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 7:31 AM

Ok news I'll give you the freedom of speech issue, howevere you didn't respond to the other issuses I stated are just privleges(sorry about the spelling I hope you get what I'm sayin) such as voting, and guns?

-- Posted by midniterebel on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 6:28 AM

Friends and neighbors, I am going to post one more thing that seems to be on topic and something of general interest here -- and then I am going to take a break from commenting for a few days. I think I have said enough for now and frankly, I would love to read what some of you folks think.

The following link is a link to a series of you tube videos on the history of democracy. There are 5 in all. Its a very well done series and I think it sheds a lot of light on how we got to where we are now...and maybe some light on where we are going.

I hope everyone who watches the series will enjoy it.

"Big Ideas That Changed The World : Democracy-Tony Benn"


-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 6:20 AM


In addition to the essay I wrote and posted below regarding civil rights, I should also clarify that the right to free speech and free press refers to prior restraint -- the act of a government prohibiting of an individual from speaking in public or from establishing his own publication.

However, all publishers, such as this forum, which is owned by the Marshall Democrat Newspaper, reserve the right to print or not print what ever they wish. The editor (in this case Eric Crump) has the final word as to what is printed or posted in their newspaper and affiliated forums and he is responsible for those decisions.

It is not a violation of our right to free speech for a publisher to refuse to publish our opinions and the editor sets the rules for all publication.

...and trust me, I hate to admit that lol...Lord knows, Crump has pulled some of my comments many times too lol...but that is his right as the editor.

If you wish to publish something that Crump does not want to publish in this forum, you have every right to create your own publication and say what ever you want -- that is protected free speech and free press. There are a some exceptions of course. As I pointed out in my essay below, when the Supreme Court determines that enforcement of a right is a direct threat to the physical health and well being of the general public, then those rights can be limited some what to protect the direct, physical health and well being of the public. Examples of this are laws prohibiting child pornography since such pornography can only be done by committing a criminal assault on a child. Consequently, no one in the United States can legally publish such material...and rightly so.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 5:20 AM


Civil Rights are absolute, as interpreted by the Supreme Court.

This does not mean the Federal Government and the various 50 States do not enact laws that violate those civil rights. Nor does it mean that civil rights violations do not occur by private enterprise and even citizens vs citizens.

Civil rights violations do indeed occur. I predict for example that the first person to be stopped and profiled in Arizona, and who files a lawsuit against Arizona for violating his or her civil rights will, indeed win their case and the State of Arizona will then be prohibited from enforcing part or all of its immigration law.

It does, often times, take a long time to find relief from civil rights violations. It can take many years -- sometimes as long as 20 years -- to get a case in front of the Supreme Court. Even after the Supreme Court establishes an action as being a civil rights violation, violations can occur -- although relief from said violations is usually much faster in those cases because there is, often times, no appeal beyond the district court because the matter has already been settled by the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court has ruled that there are some limits to civil rights...such limits occur when the rights of the individual, if enforced, would directly threaten the physical health of the general population. Justice Holmes for example cited "screaming fire in a crowded theater" as one such limit to free speech, since screaming fire in a crowded theater would likely cause a stampede and may very likely result in serious injury or death.

In addition, there are some limits to the civil rights of individuals who are incarcerated, on parole, or on criminal probation. For example, States do not allow prisoners to posses guns or knives. Even felons who have served their time and are not in the prison-industrial system, are usually prohibited from owning, firing or possessing firearms. However, we may see the Supreme Court rule that unconstitutional in future cases given the precedent they set in a recent decision. But for now, the Government is allowed to regulate gun ownership to some degree particularly with respect to ex-cons.

Interestingly enough, States are also free to limit voting rights of felons who are in the prison-industrial system, however the Supreme Court has tightened such restrictions when it comes to felons who have served their time and are no longer in the prison-industrial system. All States now provide a process by which ex-cons can regain their voting rights...including our State of Missouri.

Its one thing to read the Bill of Rights and self-interpret what those amendments mean and quite another to put one's own interpretation into practice.

Only the Supreme Court has the Authority to interpret the Constitution (Marbury V Madison, 1803), and often times their interpretation are steadily evolving. For example, at one time the Supreme Court ruled that Jim Crow laws (segregation laws) were Constitutional as long as they were equal. Contrary to what some folks think, the Supreme Court never "overturned" that decision -- although some scholars refer to it as an overturning, but in fact if you read Brown V Topeka Board of Education you will find the majority opinion cites their decision as a clarification of PLESSY v. FERGUSON. In Brown V Topeka, the Supreme Court ruled that since racial segregation turned out to be inherently unequal, such laws then violated their previous ruling and were in fact unconstitutional.

It may seem sometimes that civil rights are mere "privileges," because of the ever evolving process of judicial review of said rights, but in fact a right and a privilege are quite different. Constitutional Rights, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, are an entitlement -- something you are entitled to and given to you by your creator and are rooted in Natural Law philosophy. Other rights are legislated rights -- entitlements establish by State and Federal legislatures. All are enforceable in our system of jurisprudence.

However, legislated privileges are a different matter entirely. For example, many people believe they have a right to operate a motor vehicle...they don't. Driving is a legislated privilege -- not a right. We have a right to walk, but we don't have a right to drive. In addition, while you do have a right to refuse to answer any questions and a right to refuse to give evidence against yourself -- including a police officer asking you if you will take a breathalyzer test if he pulls you over -- you will lose your privilege to drive -- because you do have a right to remain silent and not give evidence against yourself -- but you don't have a right to drive a motor vehicle.

Clearly, laws are complex -- as are the 3 major philosophies of law. That is why attorneys spend so many years in school and are required to pass a very difficult bar exam (actually 2, one state and one federal) in order to demonstrate minimum competency in the practice of law.

If you believe that your civil rights or legislated rights are being violated, I recommend you consult with an attorney. Often times a good first step is to write the American Civil Liberties Union and ask them their opinion. They are indeed experts in civil rights and they would be more than happy to help you with information...they may even provide legal assistance for you free of charge.

I hope this not-so-brief summary of civil rights is helpful to you.









-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 4:59 AM

News Across

In your post to mrxray you commentened on inalienable rights. I hope you weren't referring to the constition because those are just privilages that can very easily be taken away.

Just ask anyone in the system even for somthing as minor as getting behind on child support.You loose the so called right to keep and bear arms,even the right ooops privilage to vote and as for the freedom of speech nobody has that either just put somthing on even here that someone gets really offended by and see how fast it gets deleted. So please tell me where these RIGHTS are cuz I'd really like to know

-- Posted by midniterebel on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 1:25 AM

For those so infatuated with ILLEGAL immigration and the desire for amnesty... here is example of HOW the FED is failing and allowing the liberal sanctuary cities and local/state governments to endanger the lives of us all.


-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 1:01 AM


Thanks...actually what he was trying to do was divert from the subject...which was how some of us Americans gets a different perspective of American foreign policy when viewed from outside the USA. It looks awfully imperialistic from here.

So in order to try and divert from any possibility of discussing the imperialistic policies of the USA...and especially as viewed by an American from overseas...he wanted to start splitting hairs over the term ex-pat. So in order to circumvent his attempt to divert from the subject, I just thought I would go ahead and make his attempt mute so we can get back to the subject at hand.

The saddest part of American imperialism...aside from the genocide...is that its killing our domestic economy. Bush and the Republicans started this nonsense when they attacked Iraq and Afghanistan. Now Obama and the Democrats are keeping the imperialism going. What really gets me though is how we forget we are the invaders -- not the Taliban and not the Iraqi people...we invaded them. Neither was any direct threat to our Nation...but we invaded them anyway.

So here we are back on topic.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 23, 2010, at 12:43 AM


American citizens who reside in other sovereign nations are often referred to as ex-pats.

I am not going to split hairs with you over various definitions of the word.

Instead, let me point out that I remain an American citizen, will remain an American citizen for the rest of my life, have never and will never relinquish my American citizenship, and as a natural born citizen, my citizenship is guaranteed for life by our Constitution.

As I have told you before, my American citizenship is not up for debate.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 9:09 PM


Again, my comment was simply that drawings and comments that ridicule the great teachers in history such as the Prophet Mohammad or Jesus of Nazareth are in poor taste. I never suggest prior restraint of free speech or freedom of the press.

While religious bigots certainly have the right to speak freely, others also have the right of free speech to point out the low moral character of said religious bigots.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 9:05 PM


This is a public forum. Any comment you make is fair game for a response from any other reader of this forum.

If you already knew that our Founding Fathers had made provisions to protect less populated states from being bullied by larger states...why did you make your comment as if no such provision exists?

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:59 PM

mrxray i think costner's idea is excellent and it sounds like it already works they just need to deploy them. Wonder why we have never heard of this on the news?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:57 PM


Majority rule with specific civil rights protections as we have in the United States is Democracy -- not Fascism.

As an American, I resent your assertion that majority rule with specific civil rights protection is anything but democracy. We are a Republic -- a form of democracy where the majority rules and specific inalienable rights of the individual are protected.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:57 PM

News.. when I said I was tired of the government telling people what they can and cannot do, eat and so forth, you responded that I should complain to my representatives.. all well and good.

But it appears as if you are advocating FOR the government to tell people how and when and what and where to do anything.... Do we really want a nation where a few elitist political people, who are WAY too easily swayed by corrupt monetary bribes from special interest groups from all areas, making those decisions for us on all levels? Is that not exactly what Hitler and the Nazi's were doing? Gradually taking more and more freedom from people.... or not so gradually?

At least be realistic enough to acknowledge that if we give up our freedoms and rights and place it in the hands of politicos then we are willingly saying we do not care if our nation evolves into a similar state... maybe not one with a crazed dictator who will perform geoncide but a similar state nonetheless.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:48 PM

taxedpayer i can go with that thanks for the clarification

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:46 PM

news... I dont need a lesson on how our government system works. I know there is a system in place to allow for varying populations from regions/states. LOL

I was simply responding to a statement by someone other that YOU who stated they wanted simple majority votes instead of the system that we have now and questioned that specific person, not YOU, about that statement.

Thanks though.. LOL

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:43 PM

News... by belittling a movement to show unity and support for someone's right to free speech in the issue of drawing Muhammed is not an effort at simple disrespect or making fun of a religion you are in effect saying that freedom of speech is not important to you, only YOUR version of it..... lol Again you missed the whole point, intentionally, of the "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" holiday.

I am proud to stand with ANY group who is threatened or intimidated simply because they exercise their rights to freedom of speech. IF one group of people will allow those threats to silence them, then all people in our nation are harmed. Sad you cannot connect those dots.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:41 PM

I find it funny that Newsacross just defined him/her self as an Ex-patriot... the definition of this by Websters is;

To give up residence in one's homeland.

To renounce allegiance to one's homeland.

n. (-ĭt, -āt')

One who has taken up residence in a foreign country.

One who has renounced one's native land.

Not sure that having a dual citizenship and being an expatriate are the same thing.... one implies being a citizen of BOTH nations and maintaining the rights as such from both nations. However an expatriate is someone who has left their homeland and given UP their citizenship status for that in a new place.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:37 PM

news hispanics in the United States does not mean American citizens you made an assumption that you knew what you were talking about.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:33 PM

Good example of good-ole-American Ingenuity.... and EXPLOITATION of capitalism and entrepreneurship.


Good to see that someone in the Hollywood celebrity crowd has been using THEIR OWN money and not the Government's (Taxpayers) to come up with an idea to solve a potential problem.... that is now a real problem

See the government is NOT the end all, be all source for solutions and nor should it be. LOL

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:32 PM

No. I said he existed. I said *Christianity* didn't exist before there were Christians, and there weren't Christians, per se, until Jesus began his ministry (had followers, who were the first Christians). Christianities primary religious dogma took some centuries to develop, too. Mary's virginity and Jesus' divinity from conception were not known to Mary and Joseph's contemporaries, who in any case were Jews, not Christians.

I'm not arguing theology here. Just historical sequence. I *think* that's roughly what NanaDot was getting at, but she'll correct me if I'm wrong.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:31 PM


You said "Hispanics." You said it in reference to the United States. You said it in reference to Hispanics' fear of the racist potential of the Arizona Law. You referenced Rush who was speaking in reference to Hispanic concerns of the racist, unconstitutional law passed by the racist Arizona State Legislature.

The overwhelming number of Hispanics in America are Hispanic American...born and raised in the U.S. of A. and they, like me, are full American citizens with full rights including the right to live in their own Country -- the United States of America.

You were clearly talking about the people who fear the racist potential of the racist Arizona law. Those people are the Hispanic Americans...American citizens of Hispanic decent...and you implied that somehow if the Arizona law was racist then they would all be leaving America in droves.

We Americans don't let racists run us out of our own Country.

We Americans fight back.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:29 PM

news you are taking a lot for granted as far as what you THINK you know.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:09 PM

taxedpayer are you saying Jesus didn't exist before he was born as a man?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:07 PM

news I wasn't talking about American citizens. Duh!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 8:06 PM


Just a matter of historical sequence. Jesus existed, so I guess you could say Christianity had begun. Sort of. but he didn't have any followers (the first Christians, I suppose, although they still thought of themselves as Jews, I understand) until he began his ministry about 30 years later.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 6:59 PM


Uh... you do know that Hispanic Americans are full American citizens... right? You realize that Hispanic Americans are just as American as you, me, and any other American born in the United States... right?

Why are you suggesting that American Citizens should leave their own Country just because a lot of racists are victimizing them? Is that your idea of the best way to deal with racism?

Your reasoning here is difficult to understand.

You seem to be citing as evidence that there is no racism and no significant problem with racism in our Nation the fact that American citizens are not leaving their Country in droves. You seem to be suggesting that if America had any problems with racism that American citizens would turn tail and run from their own Country rather than simply fighting the racism in the Courts and in Congress.

You seem to have some strange ideas regarding American citizens...especially those born in the United States.

This is not the first time you have demonstrated significant confusion regarding American citizens either.

Remember when you erroneously thought that I was a second class citizen because I happen to live with my Australian wife in Australia? Remember when you erroneously thought Americans born in the United States lose their citizenship and their Constitutional rights when they leave American shores?

You may want to have a good look at the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, mate.

You are not the decider of what a citizen is or how a citizen should respond to racism, and your notion that the fact that Americans are not leaving America in droves is proof that racism is not a problem in America is both absurd and insulting to every American.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 6:59 PM

Why won't President Obama return calls or answer letters from Gov. Brewer but honors Senor Wences.

If America is so racist why do hispanics fight so hard to stay?




-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 6:20 PM

oops you are right M but nanadot why do you think no one was 'Christian' yet?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 5:06 PM

oops, rr3, I think you have your "Marys" mixed up...


-- Posted by missy08 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:35 PM

nanadot what you say may be true if Mary had actually been with a man but she was still a virgin. What happened to Mary was a divine conception because for Jesus to be free from sin he could not have been conceived from the seed of man.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 11:40 AM


Thank you for posting the link to that interesting and insightful look at our Predator Drone attacks on innocent, brown-skinned human beings in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I think sometimes its fascinating to look at our Domestic and foreign polices from the outside in.

It certainly provides a very different perspective.

As an ex-pat, I am fortunate enough to be able to view our Nation's policies from another perspective on a daily basis.

I might add that I am thankful to my fellow Americans who love America so much that they are willing to point out when our Nation is wrong and willing to urge America to stop doing wrong things and start doing the right things. I personally believe that this is a characteristic of a true patriot.

I think perhaps the late Great George Carlin had a rather good grasp of American foreign policy which he expressed rather well in adult terms on his HBO Special (warning: as typical with George, the language he uses is of an Adult nature and is not suitable for children or the easily offended).

You can learn what George had to say on his HBO Special at this you tube link:


-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 4:59 AM


You say...

"I am sick and tired of the elitist leftist liberal thinking that THEY can spend MY money better than I can and that THEY know what I should eat and do, where I should drive and for how many miles."

We on the left do not constitute a majority in Congress nor am I aware of anytime when we did.

In fact, we on the left are probably the smallest minority in Congress.

Most members of Congress would probably describe themselves as conservatives...both conservative Republicans and Conservative Democrats.

Regarding your complaints and dissatisfaction with our National Laws, I recommend you contact your Congressman and your Senators and let them know of your dissatisfaction.

Many laws have been passed by our Federal Government since the ratification of our Federal Constitution in 1788. Some of the legislation was sponsored by conservatives, and some of the legislation was sponsored by liberals. Some of the legislation was sponsored by the middle-of-the-roaders. However, I don't believe any particular political philosophy is responsible for all the laws or even a majority of the laws.

Again, I strongly urge you to contact your representatives in Congress and let them know of what specific laws or legislation are offending you and urge them to solve the problem.

However, you should bare in mind that the Majority will decide what legislation passes -- assuming of course they can get the legislation to the Senate floor for a straight up or down vote -- that is how democracy is designed to work.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 3:43 AM


Our Founding Fathers have already provided relief for the variance in State Population sizes.

Each State has 2 senators regardless of the population of the state.

I personally think 1 man, 1 vote is a much better idea and is the only truly democratic approach. Giving 1 person 2 or 3 or 4 votes while other people only have 1 vote is not democratic. Never-the-less, Our Founding Fathers chose to set the Senate up that way and that is how it is.

However, requiring a 60 vote minimum to pass legislation was not what our Founding Fathers intended, nor did they set it up that way. Senate Rule 22 is an internal Senate Rule and can be changed by a simple vote of 51%.

I have written both our Senators quite a number of times urging them to support removing Senate Rule 22 from the Senate rules so all legislation can come up for a straight up or down vote. Senator Bond has failed to respond. Senator McCaskill has responded and has indicated she does not favor such a change. So at this point, I will have to look at her response and consider whether or not I will vote for her in 2012...which right now looks unlikely.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 3:01 AM


I certainly support free speech.

No where in my comment did I suggest prior restraint of free speech or of the press nor would I ever support such a thing.

I did suggest that the ridiculing of the teachers, The Prophet Muhammad and Jesus of Nazareth, is, in my opinion, disgusting, tasteless, and repugnant.

Criticizing poor character and low moral values is a far cry from prior restraint of free speech and, in fact, I am aware of no direct connection between these 2 concepts.

-- Posted by news across on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 2:50 AM

More on the ill concieved madness that is the Afghanistan War. Walk a mile in their sandals, and you will see another reason why our effort has been a failure that is doomed to remain a failure. Killing a hundred innocents to get one "terrorist" again, and again, then saying we must win the hearts, and minds of the people is lunacy. Read this: http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/5976...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:47 AM

Slater what have I ever stated that makes you think that I favor our current state of politics in Congress at the state or Fed level? LOL

Corruption is running rampant. I just hope the trend of ousting Incumbents continues.

Got to love Obama and the majority of Congress standing and aplauding some other president entering their chambers and lecturing us when they cannot control and manage their own crime rates, borders or economy

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:26 AM

Rr3 So in order to favor simple majority then you also have to favor the states with less population automatically forgoing equal representation. How would equity for all states be achieved with a simple majority vote? What would prevent colusion of a few well populated states to override the remaining states? just a question to see what you are thinking

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:23 AM


It is sad that anyone would chose to ridicule such great teachers and men of peace as the Prophet Muhammad or Jesus of Nazareth.

Its even worse to know there are people out there who actually support such disgusting behavior.

-- Posted by news across on Thu

THIS shows your ignorance to this issue. The issue was NOT to support the ridicule or disrepect of one religion or another. The POINT was that when someone utilized freedom of speech the RADICAL portion of the religion being made fun of THREATENED that person with death and violence. Ridicule of all religions has been fine and dandy with the LEFTists and Liberals. I mean look at how many movies have been made by the liberal idiots in Hollywood that try to show that Jesus was Gay or that Mary was a prostitute. Or look at South park and other shows that have made fun of Jesus and God and all variations of all religions UNTIL this episode which Southpark pulled because of the threat against the freedom of speech. We protect those who violate our Flag by trampling and buring it. YET when that same exercise of free speech is conducted against the Islam religion, YOU Newsacross are condoning the backing down and cowardly approach of giving in to those that threaten our right to freedom of speech?

THAT is American! That is Patriotism! (NOTE the dripping sarcasm)

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:20 AM


I am sick and tired of the elitist leftist liberal thinking that THEY can spend MY money better than I can and that THEY know what I should eat and do, where I should drive and for how many miles.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, May 22, 2010, at 12:16 AM


You ask,

"Why not combine them [the Municipal utilities and Municipal Services] into one dept. with the same pay scale, same benefits, same opportunities?"

That is an excellent question.

Thanks for asking...and good on ya mate!

Well maybe some of our esteemed local Government officials will now take this opportunity to answer this question.

I am sure many of the residents of Marshall would be interested in hearing the answer.

Inquiring minds would like to know!

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 11:30 PM

yes park 's aand rec., police, fire dept., and municipal services are city as they all attended the city dinner at christmas and appreciation dinner today. Utilities would surely attend these event's and have pay check's signed by connie latimer if they was city employee's. Yes they deserve everything that they have! They are very hard workers as are all of the city employees of marshall, But why do they get paid so much more? why do they operate out of a new facility? why do they have all of the upadated equipment that they need to get the job done? Marshall services has to borrow tool's and equipment, or just flat out make do with what they get. They don't get to work with sleevless shirt's like utilities. In the end both department's are the same, But have seperate job's. Why not combine them into one dept. with the same pay scale, same benefits, same opportunities? I am not trying to put down the utilities dept., They are great guy's, but municipal services deserves just as much!

-- Posted by jamie77 on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 11:12 PM

jamie77, Municipal Utility workers are City of Marshall employees. They're governed by their own board, however. As are the police department, the park employees and the library. City employees, all, just governed by separate boards.

-- Posted by Night Sky on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 9:11 PM

You guys know about Government & Parliamentary procedure better then i,so i have a question. Why do we need the number of Representatives we have? They have doubled the work load of the American worker's. How about cutting in half our Rep's & their staff's, federal & State's? Hold our Election's on Friday's 6:00 PM Ending 6:00 pm Monday evening? Only the American public doing the Financing? Term limit's for all? And their benefits and salary are guaranteed for life,pretty sweet! Absolutely change this! Equalize Social Society! Start with this and make changes along the way. Correct me on any of this, please, educate me! Does any of this make sense??? Thanks!

-- Posted by Jo on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 8:36 PM


Of course we want our democratic form of government but you don't achieve that by changing the definition of the word "majority."

By raising the bar as to how large a majority must be -- contrary to what our Founding Fathers set as the bar -- a normal majority -- 51% or greater -- you tie democracy's hands and nothing gets done at all. At that point the minority has all the power and the People have none.

Voting out incompetence -- such as that we saw during the Bush Administration when the Republicans held all 3 branches of Government and we ended up with such disgraceful legislation as the Patriot Act, rush to war based on lies, deregulating the banking industry so fat-cat bankers can get rich crashing our economy, ect -- is done at the voting booth. We did that and now its time to do it again.


-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 6:32 PM

I agree Jo that the government could care less about the will of the people. We are just a pawn in their game of life.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 2:11 PM

Simple Majority, is the only way to do anything!

But when you have Attorneys making the rule's and twisting established rule's what do you expect? People have to do something about it,face to face.I have really grown to old to accept all the pandering these clowns put out! The Government has nothing but contempt for each and everyone of us! They have perfected screwing the American People. If the go alongs ,in America don't get some backbone and get informed,about what these People are doing,everybody in the end will have to go down Fighting! The Government will own you!!!

-- Posted by Jo on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 1:47 PM

democrats fail to stand up for america but stand and applaud those that seek to condemn it.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 5:59 AM

as for doing away with government i don't think that would work we need some form of government. we need some competence in government let's vote out the incompetence.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 5:43 AM

news it sounds like the democrats have the power to change senate rule 22 and could go to a simple majority vote. I would be all for it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 5:27 AM


Clearly the you fellas work very hard and are way under paid for the hard work you do.

I am way down in Australia mate and so I have no say in the matter...but I want you to know my heart is with you and the other men and women you work with. I know you are some of the hardest working people in the World.

I know it may not put food on the table, but still I for one want to say...



You are one of America's real heroes mate...a working class hero.

I don't know how it will all work out, but I do want you to know that working class heroes everywhere stand in solidarity with you mate!!

God Bless you and I hope the Marshall City Council will see the light and start paying you heroes what you really deserve.

-- Posted by news across on Fri, May 21, 2010, at 3:08 AM


Well while we are at, maybe we should just do away with legislatures, congresses, and parliaments altogether. That would take away any worries you have of Congress screwing up and it would remove any possibility of them screwing up.

Maybe we should just have a king, an emperor, or dictator instead and he can have the power to establish all laws by decree. It certainly would be more efficient...

...of course it would not in anyway be democratic...and mankind has tried feudal systems and dictatorships in the past. They didn't work out real well.

Democracy seems to be the best idea man has yet come up with for good government that represents the majority will.

However, democracy does not work very well when we keep raising the bar on what constitutes a majority.

51% is a majority and in a democratic republic the majority is supposed to rule -- along with special protections (civil rights) for the individual which prevents tyranny of the majority over the individual. Let's urge the Senate Republicans to stop obstructing the Peoples' business. Let's go with democracy instead, and let's get legislation to the Senate floor for a straight up or down vote and let the chips fall where they will.

...and if the Republicans won't stop obstructing democracy...and they haven't yet...then we will continue the process We the People began in the 2006 election, continued in the 2008 election, and remove even more Republicans from Congress in this election.

Ultimately, We the People will win this struggle for democracy because We the Majority are the deciders...not the Republican minority.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 11:58 PM

Why is it that people confuse municipal services with municipal utilities? Municipal services is the street dept., sanitation, and airport. They take care of so much more than just that, like when they help out with the bus situation. Yet utilities was getting the credit from so many people. Further more utilities is not owned or affiliated by the city of marshall like municipal services, They just provide services for the city.

Municipal services is under ranked in pay by as much as $3.00 - $4.00 Hr., out dated facilities to store equipment, and out dated faulty equipment to complete jobs commpared to the utilities dept., yet services gets the job done in a timely manner, is helping the public by fixing neighboring driveways with asphalt, and many more thing's as well. I could go on and on about local issues that they have been taking on when no one else would step in and help. Just remember that services is undermanned and here to work for you! Services is city ran and city owned! They are you're tax dollars at work! If their is something that you don't like that they have done just attend the city council meeting and speak up, or just call the municipal services office and let them know the problem, But the final decision's are made at the city office so don't blame the guy's out busting their butt's in the weather and element's if you're issue is not resolved. Those guy's are getting punished enough for the blame of issues with low wages and critizism. Don't falt them for decision's that they did not make and give those guy's in the yellow truck's a smile, wave, honk, or whatever you can to show you're support.

Please help support Marshall Municipal Services the next time you attend a council meeting, or vote on something that they are needing. I blame the city council for not resurfacing college st. which is in far more need of repair than O'dell, But I will deal with the mess and take what I can get with a smile for it was the council's decision.

-- Posted by jamie77 on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 11:39 PM

an interesting article on filibusters.


one way to look at the less congress passes the less they can screw up!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 11:10 PM


It is sad that anyone would chose to ridicule such great teachers and men of peace as the Prophet Muhammad or Jesus of Nazareth.

Its even worse to know there are people out there who actually support such disgusting behavior.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 7:06 PM


Your comment regarding alleged equality of filibustering between Democrats and Republicans is incorrect.

This Congressional term the Republicans in the Senate have set a record in the number of filibusters. At no time in American history has either party ever come anywhere near the number of filibusters that the obstructionist Republicans have in the 2008 - 2010 Congressional term.






The Republicans have committed this obstructionism despite the electoral mandate of the voters in the 2008 election thus effectively thwarting the will of the overwhelming majority of the American People. In a Republic such as ours and in any form of democracy, the majority rule...but not this Congressional term.

But its ok...because We the People can fire more Republicans in November, as we did in 2006 and 2008, and we can continue that process in each and every election if necessary -- even to the point where there are so few Republicans in Congress that it becomes a mute point.

That is a vote that the Republicans cannot filibuster and obstruct.

Contrary to what some Americans think, the filibuster cannot be found anyplace in our Constitution.

It was never the intent of our Founding Fathers that most legislation in the Senate require a 60 vote majority to pass. Our Founding Fathers only required a simple 51% majority for legislation to pass with only a few exceptions such as approving international treaties or passing a Constitutional Amendment -- which also requires ratification by 3/4 of the States.

In fact the filibuster is only allowed by the Senate's internal rules...Senate rule 22, and this rule can be changed by a simple majority and the vote on changing Rule 22 cannot be filibustered. It goes up to a simple up or down vote. That is known as the "Constitutional Option."

So why can't the Peoples' business go to a simple up or down vote as our Founding Fathers intended and as the majority prefers?


-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 6:59 PM

MrXray - Clearly 70% of American citizens believe that Congress stinks, Congress being both political parties. I include myself in the 70 percent. This appears to be a foolish question, but are you part of the 70, or the 30?

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 5:54 PM

Any talk of berating filibusters by the Republicans is simply idiocy since the Dems conduct and have conducted filibusters and threatened filibusters equally as the Repubs. LOL

-- Posted by mrxray on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 4:52 PM

Happy "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

-- Posted by mrxray on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 4:49 PM

This Oil Spill is as much an assault on America as any Terrorist contrived act! It has did more long term damage to our ecological system, Economics,then anything that could be thought up by any Country that hate's us, and thanks too Bush, and the entire System, we have plenty who do despize us! They don't need Biological, or Bombs. Just a little imagination. And who is to say,that isn't what has happend. Enough of this type of desastor would bring us to our Knee's real quick! And all the system wants to do is hold some hearing! Everyone know's who's to blame!!

-- Posted by Jo on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 12:55 PM

Nice post jhh. Maybe one of these days the American people will really say WE ARE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 12:19 PM

Actually Phil...all kidding aside...you are correct...they did have a lot more experience than our current President and certainly far more than our previous President.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 8:01 AM


You will find the answers in the biographical links I posted. Washington for example made quite a lot of rank and built a strong reputation as a leader when he fought in the French-Colonial wars and as Commander-in-Chief during our war of independence when he was the absolute commander of the continental army. But he did so much more than just that. Read the bios mate.

Franklin too had extensive leadership experience often as an adviser to Colonial legislatures. You probably didn't realize each of the 13 Colonies had legislatures -- but they did lol. In fact, not much really changed after the War of Independence in terms of our culture and our government was largely modeled after the Colonial governments that existed prior to the War of Independence.

-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 7:57 AM

Come onrr3, you know they both had waaaaay more experience than our current president.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

-- Posted by Philemon on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 7:13 AM

What experience did Washington and Franklin have at building a nation before coming to America?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM


Actually both Ambassador Franklin and President Washington had a great deal of experience.



-- Posted by news across on Thu, May 20, 2010, at 12:14 AM


If the Republicans weren't threatening to filibuster almost every piece of legislation that comes out of committee, the legislation would go to a straight up or down vote as our Founding Fathers intended.

If the Republicans wouldn't threaten to filibuster the Peoples' business, 60 votes would not be necessary to get it in front of the Senate for a straight up or down vote.

As to your erroneous claim that MSNBC is somehow slanting the fact that the Republicans have again threatened to filibuster in order to keep this legislation going to a straight up or down vote...well its a fact that it happened...plain and simple...its a fact...not an opinion...and its a fact that they have done it so much in this Congressional term that they actually set a new American record for obstructionism.

Blaming the messenger for what the Republicans have done to the American People is not helpful.

Let's be honest and put the blame for obstructionism where it belongs...with the folks obstructing the Peoples' business..not with the messenger that reports the fact.

Folks, we have the power to send another message to the obstructionist Republicans. On election day let's send them that message..stop playing politics with our jobs, our lives, and the future of our children.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 11:44 PM

miss marple George Washington and Ben Franklin had no experience and look how great this country become. We need people with real life experience someone that has been successful in the private sector that can actually run a business not just campaign.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 11:04 PM

news for much of 2009 the democrats with a 60 vote majority could care less about the republicans and could push through whatever they wanted. Now since losing the 60 vote majority the republicans are obstructionist??? I guess the democrats never done any of this when there was a republican majority.

the two articles are terribly slanted and does not give any detail why republicans and a few democrats voted against it other than cost. What is wrong voting against something you don't agree with because that something may have nothing to do with the original intent of the bill. Our media fails to report those minor details. The wall street article says that it will probably go ahead and pass. The article about the science bill only says they presented substantial cuts and hey i'm all for saving money lord knows we need to. Seems to me the democrats brought the bill up in such a way to obstruct the republicans from having any more say in the matter. then hoyer said he was disappointed in the republicans, come on now they gambled and lost.

Funny how the democrats want to accuse the republicans of doing something they never hesitate to do when they are in their shoes.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 10:55 PM

Republicans Obstruct the Business of the American People Again...Twice Today:


One bill was designed to prevent Wall street super-rich, fat-cat bankers from crashing the economy and causing another Great Recession.

The Republicans are siding with the super-rich, fat-cat, Wall Street bankers who stole your 401Ks.

And the other bill the Republicans are obstructing is a bill to provide revenues for scientific and technological research and development in the United States. It is also designed to create jobs now and in the future.


Folks if you are out of work...well...when you get to the voting booth in November don't forget who is siding with the filthy rich bankers on Wall Street who put you out of work and made sure you won't be finding a job anytime soon.

Folks if you worry that the United States is falling way behind the rest of the World in technological advancement...well...when you get to the voting booth in November, don't forget who is opposed to advancing our Nation's science and technology.

Folks we sent the Republicans a message in 2006 and they just didn't get it.

We sent the Republicans another message in 2008 and they didn't get that one either.

Let's send them a stronger message this November.

Tell the Republicans with to stop playing politics with our future!!!

Vote straight Democratic ticket and lets give the Democrats the tools they need to stop Republican obstructionism!!

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 8:47 PM

I you like Will Ferrell and you like political comedy, the following link is a must see!


However, some of the language is not suitable for children...but if your an Adult its hilarious.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 5:38 PM

I don't see that kicking out all the incumbents is such a wonderful idea. What that leaves you is 1) clueless new people, a lot of them "amateurs" at the game of government, and 2) bureaucrats who've been there for centuries who are professionals and whose seniority in the federal employment system makes them next-to-impossible to fire.

Not a great combination in my book.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 4:58 PM



I won't last Phil, so enjoy it while you can lol lol lol...

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 4:55 PM

A bit of dark irony of the "serves em right" variety. http://jimhightower.com/node/7141

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 2:31 PM

incumbants beware!

looks like the people are beginning to use the ballot box to express their concerns about the way the country is headed.

and it's happening to those on both sides of the political aisle.

at least on the federal and state levels.

i agree that pols and elections are too often bought and paid for by corporate dollars and lobbyists.

looks like the people are tired of it and are making their wishes known at the polls. hope it continues through november.


-- Posted by zeke on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 10:57 AM

See what your Missouri Legislators accomplish this session. It appears does ridiculous and meaningless resolutions HJR 48, HJR50 and HJR 51. DIED. As did Photo ID HB 1966


-- Posted by CWilli on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 8:18 AM

Nice to see so much agreement for a change.

-- Posted by Philemon on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 7:43 AM


Thanks for the link mate...I have it bookmarked and will be looking at it daily.

What a shame we seem to be engaged in empire building..again. It seems we learned nothing in Vietnam.

The sad part is to see our Nation which began as a a complete rejection of imperialism has now sunk to the point of pursuing imperialism.

Our Founding Fathers must be turning in their graves right now.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 1:37 AM

Lest we forget, thanks to the mainstream media our fellow citizens continue to die in Afghanistan.

Here is a web site that will keep us posted in this conveniently forgotten war. http://corksphere.blogspot.com/2010/05/d...

O. K., everbody got the ribbon decal on the car? O. K., fuggit about it.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 12:35 AM


I am sick and tired of big business purchasing my Congressional representatives' votes.

That is what big campaign contributions amount to...our representatives should represent ALL their constituents equally...casting their votes for what is best for us all with honesty and integrity...not casting their votes in Congress based upon who gave them the biggest bribe.

We need a new deal and we need it now!

On a personal note...where ya been buddy? Nice to have you posting again.


I am very excited to see incumbents on both sides of the aisle dropping like flies!!

Let's hope the new candidates of both major parties don't settle in and play the same game as the incumbents we booted.

Let's hope they will remember...they can lose their job just as fast as their predecessors in just a short 2 years if they get too comfortable in the job.

-- Posted by news across on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 12:34 AM

Yes, yes, we all agree. Now we need to figuratively get on our boards and surf the rising tide until we reach a shore once again restored to the people. POPULISTS RULE! (left & right)

Check out the primary election results coming in. The anger of the people against the entrenched minions of the money crowd are losing all around the country. I hope it strikes fear in the hearts of every go along to get along person in our congress.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 19, 2010, at 12:05 AM

mrxray news and my idea about the public dollars is just one of many things that would have to happen but equalizing the dollars and not letting anyone spend their own money I think would appeal to the people. One thing it would show how fiscally responsible they are about getting the most bang for their buck so to speak. I thing your ideas of debates are good too we just need to be able to ask the hard questions and not have the debate arranged but more impromptu so the real character of the person comes out. I don't thinks equalizing the dollar amount is ridiculous and I don't think your idea about debates is ridiculous.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 9:58 PM

News... Rr3: The whole concept that a dollar somehow equates to representation of a person's vote is so ridiculous. Since our government is run by the people in the manner in which it is, and we have elected representatives to conduct our business at the state and Fed level, then this should be more important than American Idol, NFL, MLB, NASCAR, Celebrity news or the newest sitcom, we should elevate our electoral process above these events. An equatable system/process for the election debates should be conducted via radio and TV at the local, state and Federal level via debates and question and answer sessions AND an internet version of detailed answers to current political topics so anyone can read them at any time. PUBLIC and widely distributed records of voting and decision making should also be readily available. We have the ability and the technology to take over the TV and radio stations for the Safety and the Good of the nation and the election process should be one of the highest priorities of ALL people and thus should be placed at a higher level than all of the above listed things.

Campaign contributions from private, businesses and from the Government (taxpayers) are pointless and encourage greed, fraud, and backdoor shenanigans that are the norm in today's political game.

DOLLARS do NOT grant equal representation of anyone except those with the most money.

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 9:43 PM

Nanadot: How can asking you about what YOU find great about America stirring up trouble? It was a simple question. I was/am referring to every time people on here say America is great or the greatest, you find something to berate America about or add as something to take away from the greatness of America.

I am not sure how you can think that thinking that personal responsibility, freedom, liberty and a SMALL government is somehow "jackbooted-intolerant-hatefull-greedy-totalitarian-dictatorship" since this is how you are describing YOUR opinion regarding my beliefs. LOL

The point is not what I think is great about America or what anyone else thinks is great. The point is that after a simple statement from someone on here that stated America is great, you cannot simply agree with that simple statement without adding qualifiers or something.

You dont have to answer my simple question, I was just curious if you COULD.

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM


I like it.

I think its a good suggestion and it would probably make a big difference. Its simple and effective, and while it may not solve the problem completely, I bet it sure would put a big dent into the problem.

Good Idea mate!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 7:51 PM

One thing I would like to add to news comment about using public money to finance campaigns. On one hand we could have more than two candidates to choose from. Any recognized political party could put forth a candidate. We could have republican, democrat, independent, libertarian, green party, tea party, etc. Then six months from election day we would give them xxx amount of dollars to convince people to vote for them and say good luck at the polls.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 7:34 PM

Its great to have you back Jo!!!

...and yeah George Carlin had a real nack for making important commentary but doing it in a way that let us laugh about the issues despite the seriousness of the topics.

Nice to have ya back and commenting again mate!

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 6:51 PM

All my Marshall friend's.I've been trying to get my financing,& gusto together too attend the protest on Wall Street. Couldn't get it done, Damit! Wanted to make it my last one! I've made two in my life,i guess that's enough for me! I can still agitate through the Blogg's, for all the good that does. i would rather be in their face! Thing's has gotten pretty disgusting in this Country, as far as i'm concerned!With all the young people's live's being put on the line.George Carlin was mentioned.This guy had it together He was my kind of People.He had a unique way of putting the System down,and was absolutely correct on everything, in my opinion.Matter of fact i found one of his x rated CD just last week, at a garages sale. I have several of them. Well everybody keep on a keepin on. Hang in there!

-- Posted by Jo on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 9:57 AM


That is a great question.

I wish I knew the answer. I think if we could figure out how to take the profit out of politics, we would be on the right path.

There are ways to do it. One possibility is to make all election campaigns financed by only public money and outlaw the spending of private campaign funds on elections.

I don't think that is the only possible solution and frankly I don't even know if it would work...but it may be a good start.

We have some very smart commentators here...much smarter than I will ever hope to be. Perhaps some of them might have some good ideas we can all explore.

I look forward to reading some of their suggestions.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 7:43 AM

News Across and rr3yvo

I haven't seen those videos in a very long time,but I'm gonna ask ya'll the same thing I asked myself then and still haven't come up with a possible solution maybe you can help.

Our votes pretty much count for a hill of beans so how does the majority(workin) people take back our country the way it was meant to be"by the people for the people"?

-- Posted by midniterebel on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 7:19 AM

Here is an excellent example of why I don't believe one single word that spews from a politician's mouth.

"Candidate's Words on Vietnam Service Differ From History"


Not only do his words "differ from history." but in fact, it turns out his words were a complete fabrication of the truth...or as some of us folks from Marshall like to say...he is lying through his teeth.

Folks we need a new deal in this Country...and at the very least we deserve the truth.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 1:36 AM

Your welcome OKR...

After all the great links you have provided in this forum...it was the least I could.

I think the "Baloney Detector Kit" is something we should all keep handy.

For us Missourians it may be most appropriate since our State motto tends to sum it up rather well...Show Me!!

And like George Carlin, anymore I don't believe anything the media, rich people, preachers, or government tell me. I don't believe one word they say till it passes the Baloney Detector Kit test...and even then I am skeptical.

-- Posted by news across on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 12:49 AM

News: Thanks for the Dawkins link.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 18, 2010, at 12:10 AM


Thanks mate.

I guess you are referring to the Carlin Comment.

I wish I could take credit for his wise and accurate words...but I can't.

The late, great George Carlin is the one who said it, all the credit goes to him,...and I think he was right.

We regular, hard working Americans aren't really so far apart in the things we believe in. In fact, chances are we agree on a lot more ideas, concepts, and values than we disagree on. Its the everyday, honest Americans like you, and Slater, and OKR, Mr.Xray, Jo, Nanadot, Philemon, litlmissme, and others that make our Nation the greatest Nation on Earth.

But there are those in power...very wealthy people like Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, the Walton family, Roger Ayles, and other very, very rich people who want to keep us divided because a divided people are much easier to own and control.

The worst thing that could ever happen to the rich-fat cats who own and control this Nation would be for all of us regular folks to sit down and find out we have a lot more in common than we do differences.

I think Mr. Carlin points that out very well.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 11:48 PM

George Carlin -- "Owners of the country"


George Carlin Talks War And American Politics


George Carlin -- "America was founded on a double standard"


-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 10:57 PM

wow news I have to agree with you!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 10:34 PM

"The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice ... you don't.

You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They've long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the

state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying ... lobbying, to get what they want ... Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don't want ...

They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking." George Carlin -


-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 10:17 PM

Slater I pray for our country and our leaders everyday. I pray for God to intervene in their lives and change their heart especially our President because I don't feel that he is a godly man.

As for this administration taking charge I think is as full of baloney as news recent post and link. Name one thing they have taken charge for the betterment of this country!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 10:05 PM

That's the general idea, rr3. So, how far back have you looked, and what influences did you note that contributed to deficit spending, and during which time periods did you see the greatest activity?

Despite your insistence on blaming the majority party (in this case the Democrats) for our deficit woes, it just doesn't work that way, and if you've studied political history, you know better.

Obama has said all along, from the beginning, that we're in uncharted water, and there's no way to know ahead how effective ANY action will be. If John McCain had prevailed he would've been saying the same thing, because it's the ONLY realistic statement to be made. Personally, I'm not convinced there's enough honest brainpower in both parties to plot the best course, and even then it would be mostly guesswork.

The current administration HAS taken charge of dealing with the issues, regardless of how any of us feels about the methods. Since you claim to be a relilgious person, I hope you're offering the same kind of prayer that I do - that God gives our elected officials the good sense to do what's right by our country and its people.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 6:46 PM



-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 4:39 AM


You are absolutely correct.

I find it shocking how we as Americans seem quick to launch invasions of Middle Eastern and Asian Nations who are no direct, military threat to our National security without giving much thought to the costs in both lives and money.

We just whip out the flag, wave it around for awhile, and claim we are making their nation safe for democracy. Then we end up committing genocide, guarantee they and a few other nations will hate us for the next couple of hundred years, get a bunch of our kids killed and/or wounded, and then end up embroiled for the next 5, 10, 15 or more years in brutal occupations with no exit plan. Finally, when our economy tanks (because we couldn't afford the wars to begin with), we stand around trying to figure what is causing our economic problem...while the war and/or occupation rages on with no end in sight.

Its time we stop the policy of empire building and start taking care of our folks at home.

Maybe the only war we really need...is a War on Poverty and Ignorance.

-- Posted by news across on Mon, May 17, 2010, at 4:24 AM

Afghan war costs now exceeding those of Iraq war.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 11:52 PM

The first thing we should do to begin balancing our budget is get our butts out of the irrational war in Afghanistan.

It has turned into a tribal civil war, we are in the middle of it, and neither side likes us. Failure to leave will be disastrous for us.

The optimist General McChrystal now says nobody is winning. Duh.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 11:39 PM


If you know some other way to eliminate our National debt of 60 trillion dollars with out having to cut spending across the board and/or raise taxes significantly across the board...I would love to hear it.

Government revenues come from taxes and loans (Government bonds which are also debt). So unless you know of some other way that Governments can generate new, massive revenues with out actually going into business and also incurring more debt than revenue -- such as the gambling business -- I would absolutely love to hear it. I am all ears mate!

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 10:30 PM

news points 1&2 in your post seem to contradict each other. Point 1 states that we need "Massive spending cuts across the board until the spending is equal to or less than incoming tax revenues". I agree that this definitely has to happen.

Point 2 states that "The taxes will have to be increased until the tax revenues are equal to or greater than the spending". What I see if spending is not limited then no matter how many tax increases we endure will be enough for the politicians.

Currently Missouri has to balance their budget and the next fiscal year they are doing it at the current tax rate(no new taxes). I feel that the only way to limit government is to make them live on what they have not implement new taxes because they want to spend more money.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 10:28 PM

Almost forgot, I've been doing some studying about Democratic Socialism ever since your(News) numerous postings a few months back. It has been awhile since I've looked at it so I was wondering if you could provide a few links to sites that present your idea of what would work. I remember searching numerous sites, but didn't really find anything I thought reflected exactly what you described. I just want to make sure we are on the same sheet of music before any discussion.

Also, ever read any books by Harry Turtledove? He mainly writes alternate histories. One series is about what would have happened if the South had won the Civil War. Part of the aftermath included the Socialist Party gaining strength.

-- Posted by Philemon on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 9:32 PM

Glad to see you made it News. Found another point we kind of agree on, although not for the same reason. I think you are a little overboard saying there are only 3 choices, but I agree with your thoughts on legalizing cannabis. That doesn't mean I would smoke it myself, but I don't see it being any worse than alcohol or cigarettes that are already legal.

-- Posted by Philemon on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 9:21 PM

Regarding the deficit and the National debt...

It looks to me like both sides of the aisle certainly have done their share of allowing spending to outpace revenues.

There are only 3 possible solutions...and they are all 3 very tough choices.

1.) Massive spending cuts across the board until the spending is equal to or less than incoming tax revenues...and yes this will absolutely have to include massive cuts in military spending. Yes, this means we will have to abandon our wars and our empire building activities.

2.) Massive increases in taxes across the board and finding new sources of tax revenue... such as legalizing the sale and consumption of cannabis for adults over the age of 21 as one possible new source of tax revenues. The taxes will have to be increased until the tax revenues are equal to or greater than the spending.

3.) A combination of both tax increases and massive across the board spending decreases.

These are not easy solutions but eventually we are going to have to consider these. If we don't, our Government will ultimately follow the Greeks and have no choice but to admit bankruptcy. Such a move would mean a complete collapse of our economy.

Its really that simple. Let's take a good look at our choices and let's make some tough decisions folks or we can simply wait until the collapse.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 7:58 PM

ahhh...so this is where Crump hid the political forum. Great!

I look forward to reading everyone's opinions.

-- Posted by news across on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 7:46 PM

Slater it is only interesting to look back if we can learn from it. Looking back to blame does not solve the problem. What are we doing today to reduce our deficit? the size of government? military deployments? entitlements? What are we doing today to put people back to work? reduce taxes? reduce government spending? What I want people to see is we need to take charge of where we are now and what we need to do to move forward not blame the past.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 4:52 PM

ND - thanks for the links. :)

rr3 - you seem to not have any interest in looking back in time past the current administration, of which the preceding administration owns half of the current deficit, but, of course, that's your choice. My choice is to develop a broader perspective by viewing a hundred years or so of activity. It's easy enough to realize that a range of variables affect the spending decisions made by Congress, regardless of party majority.

Look back over time, beginning with the Washington presidency, and see what influenced the budget deficit fluctuations (which, by the way, was something around $75 million after the Revolutionary War).

Thanks for posting the link to the Arizona immigration bill.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 1:15 PM

I find it interesting that these numbers were attained by not including medicare or ss. If the numbers were real and not skewed why wasn't legilation pushed to have a balanced budget every year?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 16, 2010, at 6:43 AM

rr3 - Here's the evidence that makes today's outrageous deficit very likely preventable:


-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 10:58 PM

How many years when we had a republican president did we have a democrat controlled congress? Let's see just the last year and a half the deficit has quadrupled under a democrat president and a democrat congress. Interesting to look at but does it tell the whole story? The Congress does the spending and the president gets blamed democrat or republican. If we had the line item veto then we could put the blame squarely on the president.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 5:25 PM

A conservative that gets and a reporter that doesn't


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 7:52 AM

nanadot I'm not sure what you are referencing as first page and the statement you referenced was not in my post. Please be clear when you point fingers.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 15, 2010, at 7:30 AM

Thanks rr3, I'd been meaning to search for a copy of the law. After reading it, it does look to me like it is simply trying to enforce federal law. It in fact mentions enforcing the federal law many times.

Personally, I've traveled Europe extensively, and wouldn't dream of not having my passport handy. The law doesn't tell the police to stop anyone they think might be an alien, it just tells them that if they stop someone they should then determine whether the person is here legally.

Regardless of whether the Arizona law is good or not, I think the L.A. boycott is ridiculous.

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 1:28 PM

Arizona Immigration Bill


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 12:36 PM

Perhaps Im wrong here, but from what I've read, the City of L.A. is picking and choosing what they will and wont boycott.

They cant boycott Arizona based airlines from flying in/out of LAX and they have stated that they wont boycott the power they receive from AZ... (L.A. Councilwoman Hahn said the Los Angeles boycott also won't affect the city's Department of Water and Power, which has wind farm and nuclear energy contracts in Arizona.) ...

Arizona passed a law to enforce a federal law...why isnt L.A. boycotting the federal government, instead of a state that is supporting a law already written.

-- Posted by ALM on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 11:39 AM

ALM - Thanks for the link. It appears that the Los Angeles City Council acted on its belief that the Arizona law is unconstitutional and therefore obligates that body to cease contractual agreements between it and the state of Arizona. Is this the way you interpreted it?

Most accounts I've seen of the Council's action seem to portray it as a knee-jerk liberal reaction, which I'm concluding is likely an inaccurate assessment.

Anyone having a link to the actual text of the law please post.

-- Posted by Slater on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 11:11 AM

How do you all feel about the recent boycotts on Arizona?

I read an article this morning about how the L.A. Times posted an online poll and 93% of voters (well over 18,000) are against the boycott. There are some pretty interesting comments from CA residents regarding this boycott.


-- Posted by ALM on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 9:37 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Looks like a good poll question for us, too!

As for low taxes I guess we should blame that on the Bush tax cuts that will expire this year. I have a funny feeling our tax bill will be much higher next year and who can we blame that on?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 6:30 AM

nanadot! What about entitlements don't you thing we can cut there? What about government workers? During the blizzard this winter they told some 230,000 non essential workers to stay home. Does non essential mean we don't need them? We just gave Greece 1 trillion dollar bailout. Why was that our obligation? Will we ever get that money back? No just like the money going down the rat hole of Freddie & Fannie I don't think we will ever see it. If Obama was doing everything he could to destroy this country would he do anything different?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 6:02 AM

Hmmm what about the Obama's Doctor fix that the CBO NOW says is going to cost so much more than estimated? lol the sad thing is that this is the EXACT same road the whole health care bill will go... all the politicians will be saying "Oopps we were wrong... sorry"

-- Posted by mrxray on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 3:32 AM

Come on Nanadot... the fastest growing job market is the GOVERNMENT jobs, which do NOT generate a profit and do not create goods of purchasable services.

I am curious Nanadot, what exactly DO you find good about our nation?

-- Posted by mrxray on Fri, May 14, 2010, at 3:30 AM

ok nanadot where are the spending cuts? Of do you think that the government don't spend enough yet?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 9:12 PM

I'm not sure what you want to know about war bonds. Would they sell or not I don't know. With our low savings rate as a nation they probably wouldn't work. People are tired of the way our government manages OPM(other people's money)they have little faith in them doing anything they say they will do.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 7:24 PM


What about the original question about issuing war bonds?

"I guess my question was too hard for you to answer". To borrow your phrase.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 4:34 PM

If you are refering to the bailouts (the one's which started with Bush) where would we be right now?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:51 PM

wtf now our deficit has quadrupled just in the last year to year and a half. let's keep in perspective who's been in charge during that time. after Obama gets done spending us into oblivian Bush's deficit will seem like a pittance.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 2:01 PM


If Cheney/Bush were so convinced that invading Iraq was the right thing to do and that the American people felt the same way, why didn't they sell war bonds to pay for it? Seriously, we could have paid as we went because surely every red blooded, "real American" patriot would have been happy to buy them by the thousands. Iraq deserved it after all. We were in the right. War bonds would have had to of been printed day and night to keep up with demand. Right? That fiasco is also not paid for. Don't forget those many billions when you chatise people about the national deficit.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 10:52 AM

As our deficit hits an all time high the left want us to think low taxes are causing this so taxes must increase. How about decreasing spending Congress??


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 6:51 AM

Congress makes rules just to break them.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 13, 2010, at 6:38 AM

Thanks NanaDot,

Sounds as if your experience w/guineas matches my advisor's.

Owls could be a problem here. The fox terrier, Harry S. Wiggins was terrified of the owls, which can be quite territorial. The Bouvier des Flandres who weighed over 100 pounds and I who also weigh over 100 pounds (won't go into how much over) were walking down the lane when an owl buzzed us--we both dropped to the ground.

Maybe chickens--fresh eggs--yum.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 10:54 PM

"Obama, the architect of the worst debt crisis in this country's history, is lecturing these other guys on their reckless, out-of-control debt and spending? Yeah, he is. The audacity!" -Rush

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 7:28 PM

oh now nanadot we have mountains too.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 5:13 PM

I'll bet those oil execs getting grilled on capitol hill will help stop the gulf oil leak. boy congress getting involved I feel better now.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 7:09 AM

nanadot is that kind of like making a mountain out of a mole hill?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 12, 2010, at 6:25 AM

It got my attention I read the article. If another catches my attention I will read it too.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 11, 2010, at 10:24 PM

gulf oil spill is bad but just how bad is it?


the worst oil spill in history was not caused by an evil oil company but caused by a dictator that the left tried to stop Bush from removing from power. the current spill in the gulf would have to leak oil at the current rate for 470 years to equal the worst in history.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 11, 2010, at 9:33 PM

The Senate continues voting today on amendments to the Democratic finance "reform" bill while continuing to ignore Fannie & Freddie. The two government entities at the heart of this financial mess are costing us (yes you and me if you are a taxpayer) 7 billion dollars a month. They owe more than twice the next biggest debtor AIG and both are asking for more from us the taxpayer. When will it end.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 11, 2010, at 9:06 PM

NanaDot: You have guineas? How long? How many? What sort of house do you have for them?

Ticks are a huge problem here (NC) as well. A workman suggested getting guineas. He did say they were prone to take off. That plus the large fox population on my land leads to thoughts of a coop perhaps on wheels, so it could be moved to a new area each day. Then there is the resident Jack Russell who chases everything.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Tue, May 11, 2010, at 8:29 PM

This Roland Martin person must be a former AP reporter. He writes like one.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 10, 2010, at 11:29 PM

Here's an interesting bit of trivia:

The superintendent of the most ineffective school district here is the highest paid of all the local superintendents (approx. $350,000./yr)

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 10, 2010, at 11:21 PM

left ignoring the double standard


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 10, 2010, at 5:07 PM

okr I wouldn't expect any other response from a democratic governor. he knows how he needs to respond if he wants to further his political career.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 10, 2010, at 5:54 AM

rr3 please let us know if you agree with this report by Fox News. http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2010...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 11:24 PM

rr3 - You didn't misstate yourself about the point of working together. What I took from your statement was that there's little hope of it.

On the one hand I have to agree, since the gap between the right and left grows ever wider, but I'm not about to give up my belief that it will happen if us ordinary citizens demonstrate to the politicians that's what we want and expect. As I mentioned, we don't have to be in total agreement about the methods as long as we can agree that failure is a given if we do nothing.

Arizona politicians apparently worked from this premise when it crafted the controversial legislation. It may turn out to be a flawed law, but at least they did something, and only time will tell if it'll succeed. You and I may differ in our way of viewing the law, but we both know that steps need to be taken to solve the illegal immigrant issue.

As rational human beings, it's up to us to agree that meaningful, practical compromise is the most reasonable and expedient step to get our country back in good order, and it's up to us to make that point clear to our legislators.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 10:06 PM

wtf I guess as long as you are ridiculing me you are leaving someone else alone. If that's the best you can do so be it I don't care. You are the one wasting your time. I guess my question was too hard for you to answer.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 7:25 PM

Slater I agree people should work together if you thought that I disagreed with that I either misstated that or stated it incorrectly my mistake. We have to stand for things we believe in or people will push us aside. We currently have an administration that needs to man up and take responsibility for their actions. They are passing legislation that goes against a majority of the people which causes insecurity and unrest. They also don't seem to be addressing our most pressing problems jobs, deficit spending, illegal immigration, etc.

Then we have a state that stands up to address a very pressing problem to them and the majority of its citizens and they are ridiculed by the illegal immigrants themselves and the politicians.

I know everything can't go for the majority all of the time but they seem to seek to pass any legislation that is contrary to the will of the people.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 4:10 PM

Heh heh...proofreading is always an important element.

I said: "Plenty of reasons exist to explain this change, but the desire to understand and control the factors continues to grow year by year."

I meant to say: Plenty of reasons exist to explain this change, but the {lack of} desirre to understand and control...

Excuse, please. :)

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 12:39 PM

rr3 - One suggestion I'd make to the politicians would be to study up on what a couple of the Scandanavian countries did about 20 or so years ago to solve many of the same problems this country now faces.

A big hurtle people in Washington can't negotiate is admitting they don't have all the answers, but are willing to keep plugging away to find the answers. Instead, they'd rather spend the time arguing among themselves. That goes for all of them, from the president on down.

I don't have a lot of faith that what's being tried as the fix for the economy will work, but I'm not Mr. Brain Economist, either. Even Mr. Brain Economist can be wrong, but doing something is almost always better than doing nothing.

I've read and heard some about the ineffectiveness of the stimulus efforts, that the money is being spent in the wrong ways - a perfect example of what I just said, in this case the news media thinking it has it right.

We've seen so many lame-headed things go on over the past few decades and so much lame-headed reporting that I've reached the point where I feel I can't believe any of them.

A year or so ago I was reading a case study measuring the intellectual savvy of young people, and the results were very unsettling. A clear 50% of 4-year college graduates in the study failed when attempting to perform moderately complex tasks, like balancing a checkbook and understanding the terms of a credit card agreement, and 75% of 2-year college graduates failed the same tests. We're in trouble if those results are validated by future studies.

When I stated the ideal of people working together for the common good, you pointed out the obvious by saying that it isn't the way things work. Well, why not? We've seen times in the history of this country when people were united by a common goal, but that attitude seems to have become passe'. Our society is being attacked by an insidious disease which has rendered our collective abilities nearly ineffective. Plenty of reasons exist to explain this change, but the desire to understand and control the factors continues to grow year by year. This nation's downward spiral is progressive and could become permanent unless enough people stand up and say enough is enough.

Clearly, us humans will never completely agree on the means to the end, but if we don't put aside our own selfish interests and begin working together, the goal will NEVER be in sight.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 12:32 PM

wtf you will do anything to avoid answering a question. I asked you to tell me what this administration is doing to improve our economy, put people to work or reduce our deficit? Too hard of a question?

In simple terms we need to severely cut or eliminate corporate tax if we want jobs back in America. Ireland did that and it proved to be a boom to their economy. Basically we need everyone working and paying taxes no matter how much or how little. It's a numbers game the more taxpayers more revenue. Tax cuts have proved to increase revenue to the government. We need leadership that will cut spending I don't care what party it would be. Our government needs to spend less than they take in. Missouri has to have a balanced budget and we are one of the few states without a crippling budget deficit. Our goal should be more jobs not more entitlements. We shouldn't be celebrating a 9.9% unemployment rate. I talked with someone on unemployment and they were making the same pay as when they were working and he said I am in no hurry to get a job.

I think our tax structure is totally political that's why it is complicated and we can't get rid of it. Do away with the IRS and income tax, impose a national sales tax of say 20% that way everyone has a ticket in the game come election day because everyone pays. The more money you spend the more taxes you pay that ought to be fair to any liberal. New tax structure so we don't have 47% of our population not paying taxes if you don't pay taxes do you care if they increase taxes? That ought to get you started now answer my question!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 9:37 AM


By all means, tell us what you would do if you were in charge.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 9:06 AM

Slater what has the current administration learned from the past? Seems all the policies they are putting in place have been tried and have failed before. seems to me we are trying the same things(as European countries) and expecting different results. Look at Greece it could be a movie trailer titled "Coming to America".

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 9, 2010, at 8:15 AM

Night Sky - You're right about the origin of our present-day problems being older than the previous three presidents, and I agree that continued finger-pointed to past days doesn't solve anything. However, if we're going to solve current issues and do our best to not repeat history, we have to know and understand the significance of past occurrences. All I'm saying is that we can't expect the future to be better than the past if we refuse to learn from it.

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 10:16 PM

heh heh...no, straight frm my buddy, rupert.

Have you ever seen the 1948 movie Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Humphrey Bogart, Tim Holt, Alfonso Bedoya.

Bedoya and his gang are about to attack Bogart and his crew of gold miners. Bedoya says they're the federali's and Bogart asks him to produce his badge. Bedoya says, "I don't go no badge. We don't got no badges. We don't need no stinkin' badges!!!"

Then the shooting begins...

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 9:55 PM

slater where did you get that warning about fox news from the surgeon general

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 8:48 PM

wtf sounds like you need to practice what you preach. As a liberal you listen to what you agree with and as a conservative I listen to what I agree with. So you are telling me that your mind is not made up? As for Sarah Palin I have absolutely no idea where you pulled that out of but would it matter what I thought? Sounds like your mind is made up that she would quite. I bet I'm right on that one.

As for doing research for me I don't really need your help I doubt you have to do much research to attack me but I guess that's the liberal way. Prove me wrong!

Now after blaming fox news I will ask the same question that I asked Slater. Name something that the current administration is doing to improve our economy, put people to work or reduce our deficit?

You say "let things begin to work", well how long are we going give them before this country is so screwed up it will take generations to straighten out. This is Jimmy Carter's second term on steroids look what he left us.

Now if Palin was in charge and you gave her the same latitude you are giving Obama she would do fine. But if it was her would you say "let things begin to work". I seriously doubt it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 8:44 PM

I didn't vote for Bush but to hear people place the blame on him is crazy. Slater, of course every story has a beginning but it's like the 42 yr old man who was abused in childhood saying that's why he's an abuser today. At some point people have to stop blaming the past and stand up and take control of the situation. That's all we want from Obama. This all started years and years ago -- far removed from Obama, Bush AND Clinton.

Where it ends - who knows. Everyone is so terrified of Muslims and Mexicans but I think we should beware of the Chinese. They have a plan.

-- Posted by Night Sky on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 4:11 PM

I warned you about Fox "news" stunting your intellectual growth!!!!!!

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 3:58 PM

I warned you about the hazard of relying too much on Fox "news" for edification.

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 3:56 PM

I warned you about watching too much Fox "news."

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 3:54 PM

"Didn't happen" overnight.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 3:54 PM


Why should Slater, Myself or anyone else do your research for you? The fact is you don't care about what's really going on. Your mind is made up. If you could take your nose out of FOX news and only conservative websites then you might actually learn something. But that's not really what you want, is it?

President Obama is no Messiah. He's just a man that's doing the best he can and most of us who voted for him are realistic about our expectations. Another reason I personally voted for him was that I was and I am still absolutely terrifed of the prospect of Sarah Palin ever holding any national office. You need to calm down and take a breath. Let things begin to work. The problems we are having certainly did happen overnight and they won't be fixed overnight either.

Whine if you must but I would like to hear your thoughts on what Sarah Palin do if she were in Obama's position? My bet is that she would quit.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 3:53 PM

Slater the only way you can justify what this administration is doing or failing to do is to blame the previous. Name something that the current administration is doing to improve our economy, put people to work or reduce our deficit.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 1:17 PM

rr3 - does it matter who's in the White House now? The fact of the matter is that all the whining you're doing about the current administration is a direct result of what the previious one failed to take care of. Every story has a beginning, you know, wheter you care to acknowledge it or not.

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 12:46 PM

First you quite punishing the producers that drive the economy. What is your plan wtf.

Slater still blaming Bush unbelievable.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 12:33 PM

Yes, rr3, the Obama administration's plan is working, thanks to the former administration's lack of any plan.

-- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 11:54 AM


What would you do about it other than post a link to a website?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 7:27 AM

nearly 40 million on food stamps, 9.9 percent unemployment sounds like Obama's plan is working


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 8, 2010, at 6:25 AM

Just as long as Eric doesn't start laying eggs......

-- Posted by Night Sky on Fri, May 7, 2010, at 10:14 PM


You're taking the role as mother hen a little too seriously, aren't you?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 8:10 PM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
I take my role as mother hen very seriously, yes.

glad the last navy seal was found not guilty. the way it should be.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 7:47 PM

This is a "see I told you so"


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 6:54 AM

Not at all but to oppose a view point should at least contain something about the subject the post was about.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 6:35 AM

Oh,I see how it works. You get to decide what is considered an opposing view point.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 6:28 AM

Full of hot air.

A customer was continually bothering the waiter in a restaurant. First, he asked that the air conditioning be turned down because he was too hot, then he asked that it be turned up because he was too cold, and so on for about an hour.

Surprisingly, the waiter was very patient, walking back and forth and never once getting angry.

Finally, another diner sitting nearby asked the waiter why they didn't just show the pest the door.

"Oh, I don't care," said the waiter with a smile. "We don't even have an air conditioner."

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 6:22 AM

wtf an opposing view would pertain to the subject matter of the post not whether I should have my own blog or not.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 6:18 AM

Yes, I cried about you beating me down. It's no surprise you didn't get the joke.

I did give you an opposing view and that was maybe you should consider starting your own blog or website.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 5:58 AM

Now wtf my last post where you cried about me beating you down evidently got deleted so I don't think that's what you really want. It also contained my opposing view about what taxedpayer posted. I didn't attack taxedpayer for what he posted I simply stated my reason for opposing it. If you have an opposing view let's hear it but that requires thinking about it. I would be glad to hear it or you can keep attacking me whatever makes you feel good I don't care. So if you want to hear what I have to say then don't whine about it afterward.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 4:52 AM

TaxedPayer I want to add my thanks for the Slate piece. Not so curiously there has been no comment from the right. In fact the commentary seems to address that. Ironic.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 6, 2010, at 12:09 AM

federal government(obama) failed to act swiftly and competently


all because we want to enforce our laws


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 8:58 PM


not sure why you deleted my post referencing conservatives and liberals I know some might be insulted by it but you have to call it what it is. A lot of the liberal talking points insult me too but I can take it. But it is your post so I rest my case.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 8:44 PM

That would be your choice wtf not mine.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 7:15 PM

Obama is the winner in BP cash remember Halliburton


At some point haven't you raised enough money

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 7:14 PM

Wow rr3yv0,

You really told me! I guess I'll have to sell my computer and crawl into a hole after that beatdown.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 7:09 PM

TaxedPayer - the information contained in the link you posted is right on target, in my opinion.

If all the naysayers on both sides would take the energy they're wasting on each other, and the public, and channel it into an effort to actually improve our collective lot, wouldn't we be so much better off.

We face age-old philosophical contradictions which seem to be growing exponentially and forcing us farther and farther apart, making resolutions of issues even more difficult and/or much less effective.

Thanks for the post!

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 6:48 PM

Taxed - great column, thanks for the link. The second point rings especially true on the conservative side:

"2. Don't be a sucker for conspiracy theories. Sanchez goes through a list of bogus or overhyped stories that have consumed Fox and the right-wing blogosphere: ACORN, Climategate, Obama's supposed Muslim allegiance, and whether Bill Ayers wrote Obama's memoir. Conservatives trapped in this feedback loop, he notes, become "far too willing to entertain all sorts of outlandish new ideas--provided they come from the universe of trusted sources. When you think you're being suspicious, you're at your most gullible."

A big amen to that - it does seem to me the conservatives are far too willing to believe every ugly theory someone even suggests - fertile ground for every off-the-wall theory that comes up, especially if makes the other guy look bad, whoever "the other guy" is.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 6:40 PM

Yep, I think what's "whacko" is definitely relative to where you happen to be standing on the ideological playground. I suspect those on the right sound shriller now because their side is out of power. I remember clearly the persistent shrieking from the left during the Bush years.

I like this recent column by William Saletan, advice we all might do well to take, whichever side(s) we are on:


-- Posted by taxedpayer on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 5:31 PM

I've been searching for the last 20 minutes or so, but so far I have not found any CREDIBLE evidence that the Times Square bombing suspect is a registered Democrat. I see a lot the usual balderdash from oddball blogs and so forth, but nothing from, for example, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, The New York Times....anybody having the same problem?

WTF - Just my opinion, but I think there are plenty of people who fall in the category of whacko on all sides. To my eye, it's the right that has more of them, however. Or maybe it's that those on the right are just more vicious than those on the left and a good deal louder that makes them seem a little (okay, a lot) crazier.

On the other hand, craziness is probably in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure that somewhere there are people who agree with Fred Phelps - likely they're all related to him, but even he has his fans, sick as that is.

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 5:10 PM

wtf that's the problem you wonder too much so add right wing wacko to the list I just forgot to add it because I'm sure there are some out there and that way you can move on to something else with substance.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 4:38 PM

Just wondering. Below are your descrptions and I can't help but notice that "wacko's" only fall into the "left" category.

"right wing, right wing extremist, tea partiers, conservatives, etc."

"wtf the left is: left wing extremist, left wing wackos, liberals, liberal Democrats, etc. etc."

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 2:52 PM

wtf I guess there could be it would probably be personal opinion.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 1:25 PM

Are there any right wing "wacko's"?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 12:07 PM

miss marple he was a legal immigrant from Pakistan and a registered democrat that's about as simple as I can put it. I do agree that he was caught no matter who he was. Mayor Bloomberg stated that it was probably someone mad about the health care bill before they had an idea who it might be. What does the media want you to assume as someone against the health care bill: right wing, right wing extremist, tea partiers, conservatives, etc.

wtf the left is: left wing extremist, left wing wackos, liberals, liberal Democrats, etc. etc. you can call them whatever you want makes no difference to me but I know both of you are smart enough to know what I am talking about.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 11:52 AM

"A Pakistani immigrant democrat?" What exactly is that? And why would "the left" (whoever that is) be disappointed in that regard? Just a guess, but I would imagine most of us, of whatever political stripe, care more that 1) the apparent perpetrator was caught very quickly, and 2) no one was hurt.

Why waste time pointing fingers at immigrants, democrats or Democrats, or anyone else, other than the person who actually did the crime?

-- Posted by Miss Marple on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 8:19 AM

What is the "left",anyway?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 7:42 AM

In Greece people are rioting because the government is trying to be fiscally responsible because they have no money. The unions are telling everyone to strike. It's coming America look at Arizona a state trying to enforce a federal law because they are tired of being burdened by illegals.

I guess the left is really disappointed that the NYC bomber wasn't a white tea party republican instead of a Pakistani immigrant democrat.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 7:17 AM

okr I have to admit Police State Pete was pretty funny cartoon.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 6:06 AM

I also love that Obama is preaching and lecturing to the big financial people and pushing financial reform....YET Democrats have gotten over 33 million from Hedgefund managers while Repubs have gotten 600K. Some of those fund managers include George Soros and John paulson. YET those same fund managers are exempt from this financial reform that OBAMA is pushing... FUNNY, I thought the Big O (not Oprah) promised OPENNESS and transparency and to eliminate LOBBYist influence in DC.

I guess this is just another hypocrisy that the leftists and the media can ignore

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 2:40 AM

LOL Obama was the top recipient of BP oil donations in 2008.... THAT is funny They also sent 16 million to DC in 2009 to influence politics in DC...and in 2010 first quarter, they sent 3.53 million so far.

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 2:31 AM

Gotta love the WHACKO NYC mayor bloomberg. NOW that it has been show NOT to be a white conservative angry at the government but a TERRORIST, trained in Pakistan, Bloomberg says we must feel sorry for him cause of our economy he got laid off from his job?????

WHAT is our country coming to?

Terrorists are terrorists. Call the stupid kettle AND the Pot BLACK (NOTE for all you who want to call that a racist statement: There IS a saying about the pot calling the kettle black)

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 1:37 AM

OKR: (NOT an insult but an abbreviation)

It is not Apples to oranges. This oil spill and the huge pocket of gas/oil is a MAJOR issue. AFTER the 8-9 days was up Obama thought it important enough to send a "climate" czar???? what the heck is a climate czar going to do? LOL Obama thought it important enough to go against the Mrs. Obama and he traveled on Sunday which is taboo normally cause they have to have family time or whatever...

YET he has time to address a LOCAL/CITY or at the most a STATE issue of a broken water main? Not sure why you are hypocritical about this.

-- Posted by mrxray on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 1:26 AM



-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, May 5, 2010, at 12:32 AM

Wow where is the lame stream media on this oh I forgot she is a republican or maybe it was a free sample from the mexican drug cartel


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 6:39 PM

let's see okr would you have said give the guy a break if Bush was in office? Now that's apples to apples.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 12:30 PM

Apples and oranges MrXray. New Orleans, people screaming for help, all over television, no response from the Bush Administration. Oil spill thousands of barrels of oil pouring into the gulf, a problem requiring technical solutions from the oil industry, who announced they could handle it. But you knew that.

What difference would it have made if Obama had chugged around the spill in a boat? Besides that he would not have been able to smoke his cigarettes with all the inflammable stuff around. Give the guy a break.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 11:32 AM

Just FYI: Comments that address another user with an alternative version of the user's name appear to be attempts to insult. They get deleted. Screen names are available for all to see, so it's pretty easy to get them spelled correctly.

-- Posted by Eric Crump on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 11:20 AM

MrXray - You'll think what you want, of course, and so will I, but, believe it or not, in no way am I demeaning you or anyone else whose thinking is aligned with yours. I used the WASP acronym to describe a common way of thinking among the early settlers to this country and how that mindset was/is used against minorities (no, I'm not a member of any minority, unless you believe the demographers when they say that whites will be in the minority in the not-too-distant future). I COULD say, if the shoe fits..., but there's no point in our arguing, about semantics or any other thing. Right? As I previously mentioned to rr3, arguing among ourselves is exactly what our politicians want, to keep us "ordinary" people at each other's throat while they do what they please.

As for the Arizona law, only time will tell if it will actually work. All the speculation we're doing is just that, but I'll say once again, I'll be greatly surprised if it's successful and doesn't end up squandering even more taxpayer money. I noticed you didn't answer any of the questions I posed about it. Does that mean you don't know any more of its finer points than I do?

I used the border wall as a prime example of flawed policy and decision-making, and if you've watched any of the documentaries about it, you should know what I was implying, but if you can't make the connection between government policy regarding the Native Americans and immigration laws, I won't try to explain it to you.

-- Posted by Slater on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 10:44 AM

I didn't know Dick Cheney was ever president??????????

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 6:44 AM

Even on his worst day, Obama is still a better president than Dick Cheney ever was.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 6:31 AM

More about slow response of Obama regime


The violence from the left is never reported


more contempt for the American people by elected officials


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 6:22 AM

Gotta love old Mayor Bloomberg from NYC and his statements that this bomb in NYC was from a homegrown terrorist angry at the government instead of keeping his stupid mouth shut and not opine with no facts to back it up...

TYPICAL attempt to bash anyone for limited government... lol

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 2:38 AM

Got to love you OKR..... you always have to add insults to your posts... what you said about those on the right not believing anything unless it comes from fox is so boring and so typical of people who cannot formulate individual thoughts and have to resort to insulting people in some manner to make their selves feel better.....

Since you want to politicize the issue of the oil spill by bringing up left versus right in YOUR comments then how come it is taking Obama so long to deal with this situation. Was it not about 8-9 days post oil spill that he sent out people? YET he can respond to a Mass water main break within a day? priorities!

You would be demanding that Bush be hanged by his little toes and tortured in this situation.. LOL

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 2:37 AM

Slater: funny how you attempt to classify people with an acronym or a term you find belittling in an attempt to make a point.

Again, Indians and Jackson's policy toward them have no bearing on this issue. AND if you are commenting on this issue without reading and understanding the new law in AZ, then you are speaking out of turn, without any basis.

It is sad that you try to use religious aspects to make the leap that we should just accept the illegal immigrants breaking our FEDERAL laws and just accept all of the cost to our economy to deal with them, care for them and provide deportation or welfare for them. There is a Huge difference in having compassion for people on an individual basis and being foolish as a nation and ignore the risk of terrorists and dangerous drug traffickers crossing the border to harm our LEGAL citizens and disrupt our economy. This is not a social justice issue but a LEGAL issue and a national security issue.

-- Posted by mrxray on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 2:27 AM

And for those of you that thought MSNBC, or CNN would have done a better job than Fox...sorry nothing on MSNBC about the extent of the disaster, not much on CNN, just some old 'in general" figures. http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/03/gulf.oi...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 12:32 AM

Now this, if you are not already sick about this disaster. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, May 4, 2010, at 12:13 AM

A thought provoking commentary regarding the oil spill. It is not direct politics, but politics come to mind when reading it. It belongs here more than it does over on the new Speak Out a.k.a. "It's a nice day blog". http://pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mothe...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 11:57 PM

Additionally, I don't have a problem with everyone having proper identification. It's been an official part of my life since I turned 16 and got a driver's license. I have to produce a photo id to vote, to ride the transit system for disabled people, to get on an airplane or other national conveyance, to check out books from the library, and so forth.

The only argument I have with any plan is to insure that it does what's fair and equitable for everyone.

Can we rely on politicians and other government workers to do what's right? Good question.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 7:18 PM


I don't know the details of the Arizona law, but from what's been reported by you and your colleagues, I'd have to say that it'll turn out to be a failure just like most other efforts to fix a social problem. It's my belief that it'll end up costing more money to implement it than it's worth. What will happen to the poeple who are prosecuted by it? Will they be put in an American jail? Will they be deported? Will they be executed? What? And, as I said earlier, it's putting an additional strain on police departments which aren't equipped to handle the extra repsonsibility. It's a band aid fix, nothing more, and will spend money that needs to be spent in more productive ways.

While you're about catching up on Jackson's Indian policy, try reading up on the meaning of manifest destiny. I'm taking a guess here, but I imagine you're a WASP with pretty much the same mindset as the early settlers.

Yes, we immigrated to this country, with God's blessing, of course, and with His ordination to destroy everying resisting our "divine" right.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how one human can devalue the life of another and lay that at God's feet.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 7:13 PM

rr3 - what is it the Obama regine should be doing? Should they put on their scuba gear and go see how many leaks they can patch up?

I don't see anyone doing much of anything, so far. I understand the next step is to put some kind of dome-like cover over the leaks to try and contain the oil. The weather in the Gulf has been the greatest detriment to the cleanup process. The rough sea has made the equipment nearly useless so far.

Meanwhile, someone is drilling another hole, hoping to take the pressure off the ones that are leaking. It was reported that the drilling will take at least a month, so that's probably a big waste of time and money.

Is this all news to you? If so, stop listening so much to Fox news.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 6:52 PM

When is the Obama regime going to act on the oil spill in the gulf so far all he has done is blame bp and how were they going to pay for it. Where are the environmental wackos? What was the rhetoric about Bush reacting to Katrina?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 5:30 PM

wtf if I wasn't making a point you would totally ignore me. All I see is you attacking my post but offer nothing of substance. I think mrxray has stated it perfectly truth hurts doesn't it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 7:29 AM

WTF.... just because YOU believe the leftist lies from the non-mainstream media and the leftist Obama propaganda outlets does not make THEM tellers of truth either. ALL the networks have been caught in lies, distortions and fear mongering and other actions.

It amazes me, even though it should not, that people can sit on one side and cast stones at the other side while sitting in a glass house. Just look to Olbermann and Maddow and Matthews and the list can go on and on and on with their lies and distortions and misleading stories and videos.

-- Posted by mrxray on Mon, May 3, 2010, at 1:07 AM

Slater: not sure what you think is wrong with the AZ law. Not sure what people think is wrong with proving you are a LEGAL citizen, black, white, brown or green, purple or whatever color you profess to be.

I have to prove I am a citizen when I re-enter this country while traveling overseas. I have to prove I am a citizen when I got my Driver's license and when I get a job. Not sure what the big deal is if you are caught on a traffic stop or during a criminal or police investigation is either.

Either you are here legally and you can prove it or you are not here legally and you are sharing ID with other people or you have fake ID. In this situation you are breaking Fed law and it does not matter what the state law says.

Pres Jackson's actions or plans toward native Americans have no bearing on immigration today. Immigration laws and plans from the 1800 and the early 1900s have no bearing on today's issue with terrorism and an unsecure border where both terrorists can come across unchecked AND drug and people smugglers are daily killing, attacking, kidnapping and performing other violent and non-violent crimes against our LEGAL citizens.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 9:42 PM

Ratings don't equal truth. Just because a bunch of people like you have nothing better to do than watch that train wreck is not impressive in the least. FOX "news" lies.That is a fact and readily documented. If you want to eat it up that's your business but don't expect me to lend any creedence to anything you ever have to say because of it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 8:16 PM

r2d2 i don't know how you got that from rr3yv0 but hey I kinda like I may change my name thanks

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 7:24 PM

wtf #1 show on a #1 news station ratings prove it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 7:22 PM

this is for wtf so he can see a #1 show


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 4:53 PM

what can i expect from you wtf you can't read the name post by xxxx very well?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 12:43 PM

wtf I wasn't looking for them why are you against guns?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 12:39 PM

MrXray - study up on the Andrew Jackson presidency, for example, to learn about the federal government's systematic formal plan to take away the freedoms Native American populations enjoyed prior to the Eurocentric takeover of North America.

I suspect the illegal entry into this country will subside once people recognize and learn from experience that the U.S. is no longer the economic beacon to the world.

My guess is that you and every other person who supports the building of the border wall, as an example, would be singing a different tune if you were on the outside looking in. Don't fault other humans for wanting the chance for a better life.

This doesn't mean I support people entering the country illegally - far from it. Like so many other things that are haywire about this country, the issue of immigration reform no doubt is being considered in the same half-baked way that everything else is. This wall being constructed and the new Arizona law are perfect examples of what I mean. All problems confronting our governments receive the standard "band aid" prescription, rather than people actually putting their brains to work to come up with real and lasting solutions.

-- Posted by Slater on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 10:51 AM


You didn't even notice the gun ads? How could you miss them?

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 7:56 AM

There is a HUGE difference between immigration from 1700-1800 and early 1900s due to the amount of available land on the continent and now. There is no longer unexplored, wide western lands to spread out into.

With that said, uncontrolled and illegal/undocumented immigration is very harmful to our economy and security. The past ways of dealing with immigration have no real bearing on the needs of our nation in current time. BUT even back then there were many immigration laws passed to control in the influx of immigrants from varying nations or cultures and for many different reasons.

The whole "white people destroyed the native Indians" argument is growing tiresome as well since it is irrelevant to today's immigration issues.

immigrants form countries were encouraged and needed back in the day for help with building railroads and many other projects at different times in our nation. Were some of the policies back then harsh and did they enocourage or allow poor conditions for those immigrants? Sure they did, but again that is in the past, not the present.

Immigration is all about security for our LEGAL citizens and protecting our life and our economy. It is amazing the amount of people who buy into the liberal leftist rhetoric about this issue and forget about all of the murders, kidnappings, land damage, death of those illegals as they come across the border, and the potential for terrorists to come across this unsecured border.

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 1:33 AM

If we know our countries history we can better understand minority positions. http://www.senatedem.ilga.gov/index.php/...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, May 2, 2010, at 1:31 AM

wtf I didn't ask you to take it seriously or otherwise you took that on yourself. I didn't find it hard to read I didn't even notice the ads about guns.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 1, 2010, at 11:48 PM


The links you post are from sources that are laughable at best. It was hard to read the story in between all the ads for guns this and guns that. Do you really expect us to take that seriously? I kept waiting for a Glenn Beck video to pop up. Thankfully I was spared from that.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, May 1, 2010, at 7:50 PM

We as a country have chosen to have a strong military. Does having a strong military mean perpetual war? Can we have a strong military and never go to war?

I thing we need to look to our current administration to see who we are actually at war with. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?i...

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, May 1, 2010, at 5:36 PM

I'll do you one better-put my last post back on.

If it was insulting, poor language, etc delete this sorry account and you won't hear back from me on this site.

Let your "readers" decide. Don't take it out on me through a personal vindeta, or favors owed.

-- Posted by ceymore on Fri, Apr 30, 2010, at 8:57 AM

Pick one word that was insulting-

If you mention tone, then re-read her post- maybe your'e biased?

-- Posted by ceymore on Fri, Apr 30, 2010, at 8:54 AM

Really, you had to delete the last post?

So you think Kathy isn't trying to provoke something? I merely stated, good for her and her cultural enlightenment.

Being American is enough for me!

I hope you start referring this fairly! I understand the connection and ties that are present but fair is fair.

-- Posted by ceymore on Fri, Apr 30, 2010, at 8:50 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Comments with insulting language will be deleted.

Have you made enough money yet? Your pay is not above Obama's pay grade


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 30, 2010, at 6:11 AM

Oh, ceymore, almost forgot an important point. My great-grandfather on my mother's side was born in Wales; my great-grandmother was born in Ireland. On my father's side, his maternal grandparents were both born in Germany and on his paternal grandparents were both born in Ireland. Most of them arrived in the U.S. in the mid- to late 19th century. Whether they went through Ellis Island, I have not been able to determine, although we're relatively certain that at least the German side of the family entered through Baltimore. I mention all of this because I want you to have no doubt about my ancestry, of which I am very proud.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 PM

ceymore, I thought I would help you out on the subject of Gaelic. Ireland has about 4.4 million people. Of that number, roughly 3% speak Gaelic, or Irish, as it is sometimes called. Another name for it, I believe, is Erse. There are between 40,000 and 80,000 "fully native speakers" of Gaelic in Ireland, and those areas where it is the vernacular are called "Gaeltacht" areas.

When I spent 10 days in Ireland, I heard not one single person speak anything but English except a musician who sang a song in Gaelic.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 9:20 PM

I don't watch movies Slater so now what?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 8:56 PM

rr3 - you've been watching too many hollywood movies.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 8:29 PM

The Arizona law only kicks in after they have been stopped breaking another law such as speeding they can't stop someone based on race or ethnicity.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 5:46 PM

So what's wrong with profiling? If you were in a group of people and were told that someone wearing a red shirt was going to hurt you wouldn't you be looking at everyone wearing a red shirt? Hmmmmmmm

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 5:22 PM

If it walks like a duck.

Quacks likes a duck.

Swims like a duck.

It's probably a duck.

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 1:09 PM

Sounds to me like the Arizona police now have a document making profiling legal.

-- Posted by Slater on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 12:22 PM

That rancher isn't the first killed.

There are now paid companies who help round up the border jumpers, the problem now are the tunnels. They detected a tunnel a year or so back that ran from Tijuana to Los Angeles.

Oh, and before someone wonders how they do that, they burrow to a house, then to other property, etc, not necessarily a continuous 50 + mile tunnel, but a series that get them to LA, or check out Juarez and tunnels to houses just across the border.

Just wait for the second generation......Last month nearly 30 gov't officials where killed in Mexico....The drug cartell is huge, and growing, hits are now taking place in New Mexico directly linked to the cartels.

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 11:56 AM

Oh here's a little clue for some.

Ireland has it's own language, its called Gaelige, not necessarily English, to think that people who are Hispanic don't know English is somewhat ignorant. A great many Hispanics speak English quit well / good ?

Ever wonder how many Native Americans are mistaken for Hispanic? or vice versa?

True that some Irish may have sneaked across the border, but probably fewer where able to swim around Ellis Island, though it has long been understand that Leprachauns can tele-port. ( oh, maybe I know this in my "Heart of Hearts")

Insert humor / irony / and general frustration where needed, while allowing for the mind numbing nit picking that goes on here.

Post 6, did it take?

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 11:51 AM

Illegal immigration may be a problem, but they are not stealing jobs. Other people won't take them. History shows immigrants are always the ones working in meatpacking plants (used to be the Irish.) and other laborous jobs

I think the people here in Marshall, illegal or not, have caused few problems. At least they work and pay rent.

Wish all of Marshallites could do that.

That being said, we do need to cap illegal immigrants in our country, there are just too many and now it is becoming dangerous. Some rancher in Arizona was killed by one on his land close ot the border.

-- Posted by babygotback on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 11:42 AM

I hope you exercise the same standards / care with ALL the other posters, posers, or staff members who blog.

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 10:59 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
I do.

Gee Kathy,

So much for censorship huh?

Here's number 5, and it doesn't break any of the sacred rules.

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 10:34 AM

I bet it isn't even Eric deleting the post.

Think the 4th time is the charm?


-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 10:33 AM
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
You're wrong. I'm deleting your comments because they including insulting language.


Great website! bet too few people have looked at it!

California begged for a Federal bailout......yet they haven't enacted a strict immigration bill, which if patterned after Mexico could of saved them nearly 10,000,000,000 dollars.....yeah ten billion!

Hmmmmmm I guess only the liberals have that much money to spend.........I'm a conservative,,,,,,,,I'll keep conserving my resources, land, trees, oh, and MONEY !

-- Posted by ceymore on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 8:32 AM

ceymore, you said "when the Irish migrated over they did it LEGALLY." Not necessarily. In every group of immigrants to this country, from any other country, you will find some who got here illegally. It's far easier for those who speak English, even with what we regard as an accent, and who have white skin, to assimilate without much difficulty.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Thu, Apr 29, 2010, at 7:39 AM


Well, duh. AP acts surprised. What did they think would happen?

And where are they going?

-- Posted by Night Sky on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 9:43 PM

hey ceymore maybe we could adopt Mexico's immigration law.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 9:06 PM

right on ceymore

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 5:29 PM

Immigration is a hot topic, when the Irish migrated over they did it LEGALLY, and they assimulated into our culture.

Marshall is not a vacummous vortex makeing up only the world.

Illegal aliens today are not trying to assimulate to this society. If you have family who live down south, like Arizona, New Mexico, etc you'd see the rapid increase in crime, human trafficking, and gang violence.

In Marshall we have those who hearld the trumpet call that the illegals work and contribute.

Thank about it.....if we cut welfare, how many of these people would get a job? an empty belly is a great motivator. maybe harsh, it worked for our parents.

Racist? Think about how many Hispanic buisnesses really hire whitey? They employ illegals so they can exploit...not to mention that over 11 houses were raided in Johnson county a year or so ago due to the Asian slavery trade.

Eisenhower after WWII sent back over 10 million illegal aliens from all countries so his "GI's" would come back to jobs......we can do it still.

Large corporations are enabling this invasions, corporations of industry, and gov't corporations that don't want those on welfare to become disgruntled - don't bite the hand that feeds you -we see their political clout through acorn.

Read FBI bulletins - The MS13 is now bringing middle east terrorists through Mexico into the U.S. Payment is the equivalent to 20,000 U.S. dollars or they take exchange in arms - machine guns, rocket launchers, etc...

It is time to act. Arizona took a stand. Is it profiling? maybe but it works.

We use it everyday. When cops are called to a domestic disturbance who usually takes a ride? Male,

Has anyone, anyone been convicted of a hate crime who wasn't white? Only whites are viewed as prejudice, Ever watch the comedy of BET?

When someone mentions a sex crime who gets the finger? male

Shelters are built for who? women

We profile, it's not always white, but it's efficient. The Arizona law doesn't specically single out Hispanics, just people who are illegal, (hispanics just make a better target, and are a bulk of the problem) Middle Easterners, and as in "Blazing Saddles" yes even the Irish.

If you want to come to America, then do it legally, many of my family have, when you do it illegally you've broke the law. Your'e a criminal, and criminals loose certain rights.

Want a radical solution? Many countries declare illegal aliens as spies, and they are dealt with as such........HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Just being radical......Okay lets take a few pot shots at this.

-- Posted by ceymore on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 8:50 AM

Is President Obama's promise to end the war in Iraq and bring our troops home going to be like the promise to close Gitmo? Mmmm wonder when that will happen.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 5:30 AM

Iraq's national election (did ya know they had one?) is in turmoil two weeks after the voting. Looks like they have learned well from us. It's like our 2000 election all over again. What a mess.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/world/middleeast/27iraq.html?th&emc=th

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 1:02 AM

Once again history repeats itself with the brouhaha regarding hispanic immigration.

In the 1840s 2 million Irish entered our great nation. At the time there were roughly 20 million Americans. So the Irish immigration in one decade amounted to about ten percent of our population.

What a row was raised. There was even a major political party that developed largely from animosity toward the Irish. They called themselves the Know Nothings.

The current wave of hispanic immigration does not even begin to approach ten percent of our population, but it is apparent that the know nothings are again complaining about immigration. The only difference is that this time they won't own up as they did before that "I know nothing".

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Apr 28, 2010, at 12:44 AM

I'm glad you have such praise for me wtf thank you. If I wasn't making a point you would ignore me. thanks again

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 11:12 PM

wtf is that your solution?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 11:07 PM


More of the same posts I see. Do you really think any of that does us any good?

Guess what, I don't know how to fix everything and I'll admit it. You may be giddy as hell that undesireable people will have to show their papers. Who will be the future undesirables?

Does this sound the least bit familiar?

Where are the tea partiers for this little gem?

A true armed Patriot would never let something like this happen would they?

Let me know how you like it when they come for you because if this gains a foothold it's likely not to stop. Maybe your "papers" won't show that you are a member of the right political party, religion, ethic group, etc. Think it won't happen? It's happened before with disasterous results. How far would you be willing to let this go? Think it won't happen in America? It used to be we didn't torture people either. What will make you feel safer? Camps and crematoriums?

Illegal immigration is a problem and I don't like it anymore than anyone else but they are treating a symptom not the illness.

Maybe they should look the the huge corporate entities that are really behind this.

What I do know is that blindly following an idealogy of any stripe hasn't done us much good either.

Your incessant posting of links such as these is not impressive. It's actually quite sad. You would have us all believe that you somehow have command of the issues while in fact you appear to be nothing more than a schill. A common lap dog.

"rr3yv0" - that moniker or something like it may well be tatooed on "your" forhead someday.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 10:31 PM

Arizona and Ted have the solution.


Getting the government out of the financial business is the solution to recovery.


Now wtf let's hear yours!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 9:36 PM

wtf you seem to make a lot of assumptions.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 9:03 PM

wtf I gave you the solution but I guess you missed it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 9:02 PM

Regarding immigration reform: George Bush wanted to address that issue. The Republicans put it off. Business people want to hire people CHEAP. Lindsey Graham kept saying he wanted to address immigration. Now he claims "the time is not right."

Jeb Bush plans to speak against it soon. Remember his children were called, "the little brown ones." by their Grandfather George Bush. Bet Jeb's children won't be planning to vacation in Arizona.

-- Posted by upsedaisy on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 8:25 PM

I think Arizona is doing what the government refuses to do!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 12:13 PM

14 fatal flaws of financial reform


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 12:11 PM

Hey what do you think about what's going on in Arizona?

Seems illegals, and various others are protesting what they believe to be "too strict" of laws in regards to illegal aliens.

Maybe "we" could learn something from them ?

We are repeating history. Much like the Indians watching the invasion of Europeans into this country. Look at the outcome.

-- Posted by ceymore on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 9:44 AM

if this was the Tea Party our Lame Stream Media would have this on the front page.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 6:45 AM

You are right Slater but as for the pink pills I don't know about that!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 27, 2010, at 6:08 AM

Were you intending to bicker about something? You wouldn't want to get a reputation. :)

Earlier I was speaking ideally, of course. It's foolish to believe the public would ever come together as a single body and demand anything of our "lawmakers." It's foolish to think they'd do the right thing of their own volition, so, the voters should boot the incumbents at every election until the message becomes clear, if the country lasts that long.

Limbaugh must be back on those little pink pills again, if he ever got off of them to begin with.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 9:09 PM

"These illegals are being exploited and used by the Democrat Party (and, in some cases, their own governments who send them here) and the American left in general, which has a big chip on its shoulder about this country and would love nothing more than for all of it to be torn down." -Rush

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 8:57 PM

slater look back 100,500,1000 years or even more was the political arena really any different than it is now as for bickering. I don't think so it's been around a long time.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 8:52 PM

as far as the monkeys working together in Washington they would have to be truthful and I don't see that happening. The bickering comes from each one try to out do the other and it never ends. They lie about corporations, wall street, rich people, etc. Whatever they think they can demonize to further there agenda is fair game.

I did not detect any bickering in my post.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 8:46 PM

As to Michael Medved's rationale, that's his opinion, which glosses over the corrupt practices of the finance industry and dismisses the reality of everyday life for ordinary people. What the average citizen overlooks (or never realized) about government is that it's designed to provide basic services to the public - just enough to give the appearance that it's operating satisfactorily and efficiently; I'm speaking figuratively when I use the word "services."

What's very disagreeable to me is the number of self-appointed "experts" who peddle their books and magazines telling us what's wrong with America. If they actually knew, why aren't they in Washington helping those we've elected to fix things?

To the interested observer it's like being at the rifle range and seeing every shooter get the "maggie's drawers" signal after each shot.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 10:40 AM

rr3 - the flamethrowers of the world make me sick, regardless of their orientation. to my way of thinking, that's what keeps all of us at odds with one another. it's no wonder things are always in a mess. if we could just stop all the ridiculousness and actually make an honest effort to work together...gee, things might improve!!!

your link is the greater example of the "bickering" editor crump said newsacross and i were doing. what does that accomplish? (rhetorical)

instead of sitting by while the monkeys in washington continue their posturing, foot-dragging, self-serving indifference, shouldn't ALL of us demand of ALL of them that they stop the nonsense and work together? arguing among ourselves will never accomplish anything.

-- Posted by Slater on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 10:09 AM

Warning:If you are a liberal this may be dangerous to your health.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 26, 2010, at 12:51 AM

well said mrxray as a manager that has to deal with unions they don't seem to care whether the market can bear the cost of the product.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 10:51 PM

nanadot: Unions of old served a good purpose and you know that is not the issue of today. There is nothing wrong with the Unions and their attempt to protect workers... BUT Unions today are an over bearing force that are not looking out for the good of the worker but instead want to pad the pockets of the Union Leaders. IF they were looking out for the good of the worker they would not have allowed the benefits and retirement packages to get so out of hand that they overload the product with so much cost that their product is not competitive and we have to resort to protectionist measures to even out the playing field.... Good Job Unions

-- Posted by mrxray on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 9:41 PM

the five biggest anti-business lies


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 4:36 PM

forced unionization? I thought unions were great everybody wanted in!


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 4:18 PM

that was a good laugh okr and the other links posted were good too.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post about taking money out of politics. We should do away with lobbyist money also. I would like to add that with technology today our congressman and representatives would not have to be in Washington they could have an office in their own district and state where they would be close to the people that voted them in.

By the way I am not angry or on the attack!

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 8:32 AM

nanadot don't forget democratic leadership in detroit.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 8:11 AM

Frank Rich is on target in his Sunday "Times" op ed column. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/opinio...

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 3:01 AM

However, rr3 I didn't want to leave you out, so here is a link just for you. It is from a certified conservative blog, and I think you will get a laugh....and a lesson out of it.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 2:24 AM

Here is a link leading to food for thought for us all, from NewsAcross to NanaDot to Mr. Xray, and others of that ilk. Rr3 I doubt that you will find value in it so don't waste your time reading it. It will just upset you, and put you on the attack again.


-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 2:12 AM

Good to see a populist tone to your comments Mr. Xray.

The first order of business should be to get the money out of politics. We desperately need taxpayer funded campaigns with adjunct changes such as television time provided equally to all viable candidates, a sharply reduced campaign season, and stringent rules barring freebies to candidates, and congress members.

Then congress members would not have to spend all their time raising money, and could attend to the peoples business.

The same goes for the executive branch.

I would feel a lot more secure if I knew that they were tending to our business only, and listening to the vox populi at least most of the time.

-- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 1:36 AM

The Democrat party buys off just as much corporation support and corruption as the Republican party, the left is no different than the right. just look to the Health care debate.... BIG pharma was bought off by the left and Unions and even the BIG evil insurance corps to a degree.....

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 10:51 PM

because of unions a lot of people are out of a job look at Detroit. Benefits and high wages are nice but at what cost. What about the union fat cats that have little or no experience running a business telling the business what to pay, how many workers to have, etc. Just like congress thinks they can run health care, social security, etc. run it right into bankruptcy. Soooooooooo how's that union thing workin for ya!!!!

As far as fools what do you think the liberals in congress play us for?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 6:41 PM

wtf is that your final answer?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 9:55 AM


On the contrary. I think you are just hysterical.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 7:52 AM

"Politcs is the art of the possible."

--Otto von Bismark

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."

-- Groucho Marx

Who's right, Bismark or Groucho? Both, I think.

-- Posted by taxedpayer on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 6:46 AM

nanadot VietNam...........talk about beating a dead horse.

How many more individuals avoided the military in similar fashion? hundreds,thousands?

Rush's success makes him an easy target. I would venture to say just about everyone has participated or engaged in some activity in their past that they are not proud of.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 5:55 AM

Here is something for you people who seem to think that alleged violence or threats of violence is only on the RIGHT side of the political realm.

Search the Springfield Illinois UNION rally against the state legislators that made direct and real threats toward politicians that were opposing raising taxes immediately in the state of Illinois..... surely we can all agree that UNIONS are a major LEFTIST organization that supports Obama and the leftist handouts...especially handouts to the unions.

The man delivering the threats was Henry Bayer, director of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees (AFSCME).

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 3:27 AM

how is being poor or uneducated connected to showing ID at the polls?

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 1:29 AM

I did not read the long post regarding the state statue for voting and ID. SO.... someone explain to me exactly how requiring me, or anyone else, to show a photo ID discriminates against LEGAL citizens. A non-driver photo ID is only a few dollars and the DMV. How is showing proof of who you are a bad thing?

-- Posted by mrxray on Sat, Apr 24, 2010, at 1:28 AM

Conservative protest is motivated by a love of what America stands for.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 9:59 PM

wtf the president does not enjoy the same right to privacy just because of the office of the president. What you said may be true but do you know anyone that has seen his birth certificate or that can testify to have seen it? Not hysteria just asking.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 9:47 PM

wtf you have a funny way of feeling sorry is that kind of like cry me a river. If they weren't scared of the tea party it would hardly make a blip on the radar. Why do you liberals try to demonize everything about them?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 9:41 PM


Really? Still on the birth certificate hysteria.

The state of Hawaii has confirmed he has one and the powers that be in Washington know he has one or he never would have made it through the election cycle not to mention the inaguration.

As a CITIZEN of the US, President Obama enjoys the same right to privacy as you and I.

All states have laws regarding who may have access to anyone's birth certificate which requires a legally valid reason. Those with a legally valid reason have seen Pres. Obama's birth certificate. Glenn Beck called, he wants his schtick back.

One more thing. I am not a registered anything, but I sure as hell am not scared of the "Tea Party". Actually I feel sorry for them. They have just been pawns by the like of the GOP and FOX as a way to raise funds.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 3:50 PM

Unfortunately, Chicago is not the only place where dead voters regularly outnumber live voters. I lived in Marshall for several years with no problems. Now that I live in the St. Louis suburbs, I can understand why some people want photo ID rules - nobody knows their neighbor.

Yes, the poor/unemployed will be most inconvenienced by such a regulation, since they are most likely to not already have a drivers license. And those who are housebound will find it difficult to obtain a photo ID. But freedom ain't free. Effort must be expended to keep what we have.

What really disappoints me is voter turnouts under 75 percent in national elections, and much lower percentages in state and local contests. Nations like Iraq can get voter turnouts of 90 percent or more, but we can't even get close.

Just my two cents ...

-- Posted by TerryM on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 12:54 PM

Don't really want to get into the validity of his citizenship, I'm not really qualified. I will say that no, he shouldn't be able to vote in MISSOURI since I would hope he couldn't prove that he lives here, since he doesn't. Of course, where he is from in Chicago you don't even necessarily have to be alive to vote. Could situations like that be the actual reason for this law?

-- Posted by Philemon on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 8:00 AM

Democrats terrified of the tea party movement


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Fri, Apr 23, 2010, at 6:16 AM


I agree that there is nothing wrong with providing proof of who you are or how old you are. But our leader of the free world can't produce a birth certificate so can he vote? I think we both know the answer to that.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 10:35 PM

Just as an introduction, I'm not a Republican or a Democrat - I tend to ignore political parties and vote for the person I feel will do the best job. I will admit that I have voted for more Republicans over the years though, especially for President.

So, ignoring parties, I'm trying to decide what is wrong with the bill. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but don't you have to prove that you are an American citizen when you register to vote? In fact, I can't imagine NOT having to prove who I am when registering to vote. Therefore, what is the problem with having to prove who I am when I actually do vote.

Yes, it is kind of silly to have to card your own mother, but I'm betting your mother would represent a very small percentage of voters. This also sounds silly, but what's next, no need to card people for alcohol and tobacco?

-- Posted by Philemon on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 8:14 AM

now you want to talk about stifling the working and lower class!!


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 6:23 AM

nanadot ok how has it stifled the working or lower class?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 6:10 AM

Now I listened to the Food Inc. program on POV. And I don't think that the #2 yellow corn. I grow is the cause of all the pollution and problems with bacteria. That is like saying that all the aluminum should be banned because some jerks throw out cans outside.

Now the biggest problem I find with these extreme lefties is that they want their cake and to eat it too. There are all these people who say that we are going to starve people if we use corn for ethanol. But some of the same groups say that high fructose corn syrup is the problem for everything in our diet.

Dang it you can't have it both ways. Yes we need to look at improving our food supply but don't' blame all of it on #2 yellow corn. Food Inc. speaks with a forked tongue!

-- Posted by movaldude on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 1:09 AM

Bottom line on the voter photo id. It is not necessary for the photo id. I have been an election judge for over a decade. I find it silly that I have to card my mom and she cards me because of the necessity of proper ID. But I accept the current law. A photo ID is not going to be anymore help than the system we have now. If we had some wholesale fraud in the system then we might need to make some changes but Republicans can not show where there is a problem. Sure there might be some local problems but why should we solve that local issue with a new batch of regulations.

Why don't we use these efforts to get more people to the polls. I would like for us to try to get 85% of registered voters to the polls to vote instead of the dismal 40%. Now that is a goal.

-- Posted by movaldude on Thu, Apr 22, 2010, at 12:58 AM

nanadot exactly what GOP efforts have stiffled the working and lower class? What has happened to personal responsibility?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 9:59 PM


Thanks for your response.


-- Posted by missy08 on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 5:35 PM

Good answer nanadot

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 5:20 PM

Public Service Announcement -

Tonight on PBS is the series POV, with this episode reporting on America's food industry and how it's controlled by a handful of corporations:

Program Description

Filmmaker Robert Kenner lifts the veil on our nation's food industry, exposing the highly mechanized underbelly that has been hidden from the American consumer with the consent of our government's regulatory agencies, USDA and FDA. Our nation's food supply is now controlled by a handful of corporations that often put profit ahead of consumer health, the livelihood of the American farmer, the safety of workers and our own environment. We have bigger-breasted chickens, the perfect pork chop, herbicide-resistant soybean seeds, even tomatoes that won't go bad, but we also have new strains of E. coli -- the harmful bacteria that causes illness for an estimated 73,000 Americans annually. We are riddled with widespread obesity, particularly among children, and an epidemic level of diabetes among adults. Featuring interviews with such experts as Eric Schlosser ("Fast Food Nation"), Michael Pollan ("The Omnivore's Dilemma") along with forward thinking social entrepreneurs, this film reveals surprising -- and often shocking truths -- about what we eat, how it's produced, who we have become as a nation and where we are going from here.

-- Posted by Slater on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 5:00 PM


My opposition to this section of HB 1966 is that it is an attempt to deprive voters from voting, and it is similar to Jim Crow and a Poll Tax. In 2006 we took this to the State Courts and the judgement favored our side---Ruling is it is unconstitutional to have one pay any type fee in order to vote.

The Help America Vote Act which is implemented in this state by the SoS clearly identifies acceptable of identification. The other side claims there is voter fraud--- that is their rational for the photo id. The voter fraud as yet to be proven in any state when one votes.

Only 40% to 60 % of those registered to vote, actually vote. (in Saline county, I wish we could get a consistent 60%) There has been a move toward PHOTO ID since the 2004 General Election. Let's put our efforts in Getting Souls to the Polls, not the opposite.

In Service,

-- Posted by CWilli on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 4:04 PM


Why are you opposed to the section posted?

Have a great day!


-- Posted by missy08 on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 10:25 AM

So nanadot that means I need to accept my perception of you as fact?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Wed, Apr 21, 2010, at 6:12 AM

CWilli, please post links to appropriate websites, rather than long passages. Thank you.

-- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 9:13 PM

wtf I'm just saying that if you keep giving someone something for nothing why work? Where's the drama?

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 7:32 PM


You tend lean towards the dramatic don't you.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 5:41 PM

If we would cut off their benefits then they would find a job any job. If you get hungry you will leave the cave go out a kill something and drag it home. We keep extending benefits why work?


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 5:20 PM

wtf I simply made a statement not an argument. We already had the link you didn't have to copy it.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 5:08 PM

Bcat said:

"What the f,

Real argument of substance you made there."

Speaking of substantive arguements

did you see this?:

"If this is what we would find on Mars I don't think we should go there.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 6:59 AM "

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 1:01 PM

Thank you bcat,

I liked it.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 12:57 PM

If this is what we would find on Mars I don't think we should go there.


-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 6:59 AM

wtf why would I cry for you

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 20, 2010, at 4:47 AM

What the f,

Real argument of substance you made there.

-- Posted by Bcat on Mon, Apr 19, 2010, at 11:25 PM


Cry me a river.

-- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Apr 19, 2010, at 10:17 PM

Protesters beat people leaving GOP event.




If this would have been a Democrat or liberal event it would have made front page news. They probably would have blamed it on the Tea Party.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 19, 2010, at 9:39 PM

Eric I like this idea come on over news if you dare.

-- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, Apr 19, 2010, at 9:04 PM

HB1966 - Perfected and sent to Senate

Below is the section of HB 1966 http://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bil... which we, the Missouri State Conference of NAACP branches and the Mar-Saline Branch of the NAACP OPPOSE. (Requiring Photo ID to vote).

Contact your Senator Bill Stouffer, bstouffer@senate.mo.gov , or his aide, abaker@senate.mo.gov, to REMOVE SECTION 115.427 from HB 1966.

In 2006, the Missouri Courts ruled requiring PHOTO ID to vote unconstitutional.

If pass, this will be placed on the November Ballot for a vote.

In Service,

115.427. 1. [Before receiving a ballot, voters] Persons seeking to vote in a public election shall establish their identity and eligibility to vote at the polling place by presenting a form of personal identification to election officials. ["Personal identification" shall mean only] No form of personal identification other than the forms listed in this section shall be accepted to establish a voter's qualifications to vote. Forms of personal identification that satisfy the requirements of this section are any one of the following:

(1) Nonexpired Missouri driver's license [showing the name and a photograph or digital image of the individual]; [or]

(2) Nonexpired or nonexpiring Missouri nondriver's license [showing the name and a photographic or digital image of the individual]; [or]

(3) Any identification containing a photograph of the individual that is issued by the Missouri National Guard, the United States armed forces, or the United States Department of Veterans Affairs to a member or former member of the Missouri National Guard or the United States armed forces and that does not have an expiration date;

(4) A document that satisfies all of the following requirements:

(a) The document contains the name of the individual to whom the document was issued, and the name substantially conforms to the most recent signature in the individual's voter registration record;

(b) The document shows a [photographic or digital image] photograph of the individual;

(c) The document includes an expiration date, and the document is not expired, or if expired, the document expired [not before] after the date of the most recent general election; and

(d) The document was issued by the United States or the state of Missouri; or

(4) Any identification containing a [photographic or digital image] photograph of the individual which is issued by the Missouri National Guard, the United States armed forces, or the United States Department of Veteran Affairs to a member or former member of the Missouri National Guard or the United States armed forces and that does not have an expiration date.

2. [The] All election authority costs associated with the implementation of the photo identification requirements of this section shall be reimbursed from the general revenue of this state by an appropriation for that purpose. If there is no appropriation of state funds, then election authorities shall not enforce the photo identification requirements of this section.

3. Each election authority shall post a clear and conspicuous notice at each polling place informing each voter who appears at the polling place without a form of personal identification that satisfies the requirements of [subsection 1 of] this section that the voter may return to the polling place with a proper form of personal identification and vote a regular ballot after election judges have verified the voter's identity and eligibility under [subsection 1 of] this section. In addition to such posting, the election judges at each polling place may also inform such voters by written or oral communication of such information posted in the notice. Voters who return to the polling place during the uniform polling hours established by section 115.407 with a current and valid form of personal identification shall be given priority in any voting lines.

[3.] 4. An individual who appears at a polling place without a form of personal identification [in the form] described in [subsection 1 of] this section and who is otherwise qualified to vote at that polling place may execute an affidavit averring that the voter is the person listed in the precinct register [and that the voter] , does not possess a form of personal identification specified in this section, and is unable to obtain a current and valid form of personal identification because of:

(1) A physical or mental disability or handicap of the voter, if the voter is otherwise competent to vote under Missouri law; [or]

(2) The inability to pay for a birth certificate or other supporting documentation that is necessary to obtain the identification required to vote under this section;

(3) A sincerely held religious belief against the forms of personal identification described in [subsection 1 of] this section; or

[(3)] (4) The voter being born on or before January 1, 1941.

-- Posted by CWilli on Mon, Apr 19, 2010, at 2:52 PM

Occasionally we'll get a lively discussion about political topics going on Speak Out, and if the conversation goes on long enough, someone will complain that politics has taken over. This forum is intended to give those who love debating political issues a place to talk without annoying those who weary of politics after a while.

-- Posted by Eric Crump on Sun, Apr 18, 2010, at 1:39 PM
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