![[Marshall Democrat-News]](http://www.marshallnews.com/images/nameplate-small.png){kind=small}
RSS
Print
Email link
Respond to editor
Read comments (127)The Marshall Board of Education will have to decide who to believe, both attorneys said during closing arguments.
The second night of the hearing -- Wednesday, July 9 -- was again attended by more than 50 people who squeezed into the board room at the Central Administration Office to witness the testimony of accused teachers Crystal McGraw, Dawn Plummer and Nathan Reeder, plus several other witnesses on their behalf.
McGraw, Plummer and Reeder each, in turn, denied ever inappropriately preparing students for the Missouri Assessment Program test, denied ever possessing or hearing of anyone possessing an unauthorized copy of the MAP test and specifically denied that incidents described the night before by four of the district's witnesses ever occurred.
"Obviously, someone here is lying to you," Steven Wright, attorney for the district, told the board.
He noted that witnesses he called, including Renee Barr, Angela Harvey, Nancy Kleinschmidt and Bryanne Payne, had used "quite a bit of detail" in their testimony, but the accused teachers "gave a lot of 'yes' and 'no' answers."
"I think that suggests very strongly that what (the district's witnesses) are telling you is true," Wright said.
The attorney for the accused teachers, Mark Nasteff, was willing to agree -- up to a point.
"I don't disagree that credibility is an issue," he said in his closing remarks. "I vehemently disagree about who has given credible testimony."
In addition to calling his clients to testify, Nasteff called several other district teachers and parents in an attempt to establish the high quality of his clients' teaching abilities but also to bring into question the teaching abilities, employment histories and credibility of the district's witnesses.
Particularly far-fetched, he said, was the attempt by a district witness, Payne, to portray one of his clients, Plummer, as "so comfortable as a cheater that she didn't bother to cover it up."
He said the brief answers his clients gave were not indications of dishonesty.
"When someone is telling the truth there's no need to embellish," he said. "It all comes down to whether you believe they had unauthorized copies of the MAP test."
Former Eastwood Principal Lorna Stanton was in the witness chair longer than anyone else, answering questions from both attorneys for about an hour and a half.
She testified about the performance of each of the accused teachers, who she said met or exceeded her expectations during the period she supervised them, from August 2005 through the end of June 2008.
Stanton also addressed at some length the practice at Eastwood of using books in the classroom that in some cases were later the subject of questions on the MAP test.
Michael Muenks, a state Department of Elementary and Secondary Education official, testified at the Tuesday, July 8, hearing session that teachers are allowed to use reading material that may subsequently be on the MAP test if the material is part of the regular curriculum.
Muenks said what would violate the test's quality assurance guidelines would be choosing reading material specifically because it was slated to be on the test and then incorporating it into classwork in order to give students an advantage.
Stanton said she checked with DESE officials to make sure practices at Eastwood were acceptable, but Wright maintained and district witnesses -- including Renee Barr, a former Eastwood teacher -- testified that inappropriate use of reading materials had occurred.
Wright also argued that Plummer and Reeder had inappropriately aided special education students, who in some cases are allowed to have a scribe record their test responses for them.
Nancy Kleinschmidt testified Tuesday that as a scribe she became concerned about students who seemed to have memorized test response patterns and short answer responses prior to taking the test.
After an inquiry by Nasteff, it turned out that two of the three students she referred to were not in classes taught by an accused teacher.
Bryanne Payne, testifying for the district, said one of her students received a score much higher than she thought possible.
Reeder testified that in the case of Payne's student, the child had simply made unusually great strides in reading and had legitimately earned a high score on the test.
Test preparation irregularities, though dealt with at some length, were not the most important alleged violation, according to Wright, who said the board should terminate the three teachers if it believes they copied and shared unauthorized copies of the MAP test, as district witnesses testified.
School board President Anita Wright closed the hearing by thanking everyone who participated and attended, but cautioned that the board's decision would not be rendered immediately.
She described the steps necessary to completing the administrative process, which could take several weeks to play out.
The board will receive the transcript of the hearing in about 10 days, she said.
The board will then study it, meet to discuss the issues and will have 10 days to come to a decision.
When that happens, an announcement will be made, she said.
Contact Eric Crump at marshalleditor@socket.net
Odette is correct. What did happen to standards, ethics, and morals in the academic arena?
Let us all hope that the school board does what is best for everyone this afternoon.
I have refrained in the last weeks of posting on this blog.....I do have a life, I can afford a very nice vacation...and I do have wine every now and then at dinner, and NO I am not from Marshall..... My comment is.....
When a wrong is commited a punishment must be given... WHY has there been such a waste of time getting rid of teachers who did a very wrong thing by cheating on the MAP test??? I do not understand?????
Could it be as Golfer stated that they belong to the local golf club or another social circle and they rub elbows with certain people SO they are above ethics and invinsible with just a slap on the hand??
I have been wondering if this would of happened to 3 teachers who lived in lets say Sweet Springs, Concordia, or anyother town outside of Marshall would the board be dragging their feet on what the obvious thing to do is? Local Politics are a big part of WHY this issue has not been resolved.
Hire some new teachers at this late date ...give them an honest seasoned teacher-mentor and start planning for a NEW school year. Everyone has to start new somewhere and many good enthusiastic individuals are still out there to give their ALL to the student's of Marshall.
Enough is Enough ...if these teachers are not punished by leaving then the district has opened a door .....for more problems....and unethical choices...
This story is known to all through-out the state and I hate to think what it is showing other schools to do when teachers cheat or lie or steal etc.......I am sorry to hear a Santa Fe Science teacher had a similar problem and the teacher was ONLY put on probation..tsk tsk I hope her students will have a base in science when attending college to succeed.....and the Board and Administrators should hang their heads in shame.......Remember it is who WE vote for.
What happened to standards, ethics, and morals in the academic arena??????
It is soooo funny most of my previous posts have been deleted.....Wonder why? Wonder if someone doesn't like hearing closer to the truth than anyone knows. By the way I gave into pressure to change my user name...........somehow "stinkypinky" offends some. Guess gutterminds prevail
Does anyone know when the board is going to make their decision?
"The decision of the Board of Education resulting in the demotion of a tenured teacher or the termination of a tenured contract shall be by a majority vote of the members of the Board of Education, and the decision shall be made within seven (7) days after the transcript is furnished them. A written copy of the decision shall be furnished to the teacher within three (3) days thereafter."
I believe this is the policy:
http://tinyurl.com/2lkrfu
Students with IEPs can have modifications during testing which may include a scribe. These are determined by the IEP team and written into the IEP.
Also, in regards to the Santa Fe situation, the individual is still an educator. It is difficult to have a professional relationship with someone who has been involved with any type of cheating. I understand that teachers are human; however they are held to a higher standard as are others who are involved with our children.
Have a great day.
Owl12345
I stand corrected on the difference in MSTA & DESE. I agree that they should have been the agency to investigate the charges after the evidency was presented.
sansimeon,
MSTA is not a regulatory body within education. It is simply a teachers union, just like the iron workers have a union. The regulatory body that should have been used to investigate this matter, considering they are an unbiased third-party, is DESE. DESE is the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, and they are the official regulatory body for education in the state of Missouri.
Two points to ponder (cheating scandal):
1) No Child Left Behind has greatly added to the "importance" of these MAPP tests. NCLB is a federal requirement. Isn't it fair to question any security compliance or the administration of any security policy that is rooted in our current federal administration? A little "do as i say, not as i do"?
2) Though budget concerns continue to exist, perhaps in the future the Marshall Board of Education would save public scrutiny by requiring that outside parties investigate and pursue such personnel matters...those matters which are rooted in a policy that is much larger than the student/teacher handbook. In example, though it's been determined that no "law" was broken, the alleged violation of the rules stems from the existence of present law. It may be a loose comparison, but would the school board be handling the matter if a teacher or administrator were caught abusing a child or using drugs on school property? They may very well issue their own *punishment*, but they wouldn't be prosecutor, judge, and jury.
Though I remain neutral on the issue of guilt or innocense, I still believe (at the risk of being overly-pragmatic) that if this issue can soar to the level of public discontent that it has and includes attornies from both sides "squaring off" then it belongs in a courtroom. Otherwise, at this point, there isn't much difference in this mess and a parent's lawyer discussing with their teenager's lawyer whether or not the kid met curfew. Eddie Haskell and Lumpy might as well be the key character witnesses.
First of all, I am not a seasoned blogger, I am not a Marshall resident, nor have I ever been a Marshall resident. My mother and her family were from Marshall, and I currently have relatives in Marshall. I always loved this town and thought it would be a great place to live. However, based on this controversy, my opinions are changing.
I heard about the controversy on the "alleged teacher cheating scandal" and decided to check out the web site to see what all of the stir was about. WOW. Did I get a surprise at all of the petty, back-stabbing comments on this blog! How does something of this nature rise to such a HUGE topic of gossip? It appears from an unbiased third party that this is a problem that has totally gotten blown out of proportion.
Does it really matter if the accused had a drink or went on vacation together or to scrapbooking events together? Does it really matter who the accusers are? NO it doesn't. What matters is that evidence has come forth that teachers were inappropriately assisting students on MAP tests. The school district, administration and MSTA should investigate the situation; evaluate the facts, and make a determination based on the facts and evidence presented. Why are the accusers being crucified for presenting evidence that exposes a wrong doing?
There is not a teacher in existence, whether good or bad, that can please 100% of their students, students parents and family. They are people too and they are also professionals. But, they are also in a position to teach our children and future leaders of the community to the best of their ability. Do all of you seasoned bloggers know that all of this controvery is only hurting your students and your community? Think about it.
Whether or not I agree with the stresses imposed on teachers and school districts about how high their students scored on MAP tests or other standardized tests, we must all be held to the rules and standards set forth by the MSTA. And if teachers are comitting a wrong doing, they should be held accountable just like anyone else.
Now, can the citizens of Marshall and the Democrat News dispense with all of these accusations under the guise of "Freedom of Speech" and move forward to improve the quality of education in the school system. What is happening is only hurting everyone; especially the students. Move on from this, learn from it and make the City of Marshall a place the citizens can be proud of.
As a former Marshall resident and an MHS grad, I am disappointed by the petty comments that have been posted by many of those blogging on this subject. Rarely do I feel the need to respond to blogs, but this one really could not be ignored. When some of you called consumption of alcohol by teachers into question I could not hold back. Since when do people of legal age and in responsible situations have to justify their decision to have a drink (or 2). My goodness, do you have nothing better to do than take these people to task for being human and making human decision?! You should be ashamed of yourselves! As a teacher in the KC area, (20 years experience)I can tell you that we are all human. We make good choices and bad choices just like each of you does. To hold teachers to a standard that is completely above reproach is unrealistic. To spend time avoiding the real topic at hand is very petty. To drag people through the mud based on arbitrary observations and hearsay is completely "high school" and I am confident that many of you graduated years ago!
To the topic at hand: wrongful use of MAP testing questions and materials. I will admit, I know little of this, having just heard about it via a relative still living in town. I have read the article above and ALL of your comments. As a teacher that has administered the MAP test, I do know something about the protocal used. Certain questions are released for use in preparation of this test. These are released by those that created the test. Games, packets for study and other items CAN be created by teachers using these questions. I find it hard to believe that there was no security for the testing materials. My building takes count of the materials each day and they are returned to the administrators at the end of each testing period and locked in cabinets within that administrators office. I will pass no judgement on the process used in Marshall schools to keep these tests secure. These procedures may be decided at a building or district level.
It is a real shame that we live in a time when it comes to this. When the security of the tests and the pressure placed on teachers and districts to achieve certain levels is placed on a higher shelf than the overall acheivement of the students. However, the state has been very clear on decisions regarding mis-use of testing materials. If proven guilty of this any teacher is to be removed of their certificate.
I am proud to have graduated from MHS and feel it prepared me for the path I selected. Marshall will move on from this, just as any town does. Believe me, no town or school district is above problems. The question at hand is how will you handle it? Will you allow it to drag you down as a community or will you rally together to support all parties in this situation, understanding the pressure everyone feels to achieve on these tests as well as the difficult situation the school board and administration is under. Will you continue to hold these individuals (from either side) in contempt or will you show them what a small town is about and support all parties in the way true communities do? And if you cannot find it within to stand outside the circle of judgement, can you keep your comments to yourselves so as not to taint the thoughts of others?
I challenge all of you to look inside yourselves, which decisions would be best for the town of Marshall, the people directly involved and, most importantly, the children that come to each of you everyday to learn something about life.
Cheaters--
I believe that I just sighted the tool that I used to validate my statement that none have DUI's. Why don't you go check it out?
One more time:
www.courts.mo.gov/casenet
Guffaw,
How do you know that none of the accused have DUI's? Are you one of them??? HMMMMM....
One more, for those sanctimonious people who expect "model behavior" 24-7.
Guess how many teachers in our district have DUI's on their record? NONE OF THE ACCUSED!
Curious? Go to www.courts.mo.gov/casenet and look up your teachers!!! Go wild, Marshall!
Personally I think everyone on here needs to go out tonight drink till you find a table to dance on and move on with your life! Enough is Enough! I guess all teachers should be out healing people and turning water into wine! ARE YOU SERIOUS???? Teachers are not "GOD" and SO WHAT if they dance on the front lawn of their house....
Golfer-
I was the first one to bring up a vacation on this blog, and it was not (for the second time) because I was jealous or couldn't afford a vacation. I think it is in poor taste to broadcast going somewhere when you are a part of an issue that has become as "BIG" as this is in Marshall. Why not just go out of town and not say anything to anyone?
I also mentioned the drinking in public.......I wasn't reffering to a glass of wine with dinner....I was reffering to drinking 'til you feel the need to dance on a table. All I was trying to point out is that teaching is a profession, and it's about time that people start behaving like professionals. Parents and students do notice this type of behavior in public.
As far as Carrie goes, guess what people? She wasn't having to deffend herself, therefore, she wasn't in atteandence. BIG DEAL!
As far as Lorna goes, none of you will have to miss her too much, she is still living in Marshall, she just got a job in Warrensburg.
As for "the three" get it over with, DECIDE, enough is enough, and either let them prepare for the school year, or hire three other teachers so they can get ready......it's almost August people.
As far as tens of thousands of tax dollars go, for those of you who seem to be so worried about that, maybe you should ask someone how much in taxpayer dollars was spent on this.......I think the answer might be interesting.
Oh yes, one more thing. That science teacher in Santa Fe was NOT punished when she was caught handing out typed study guides with MAP questions on them....the parents of students in those classes were told the students could take classes at Valley to "catch up" if they needed to. Nice use of tax dollars there. This same teacher was allowed to skip a step on carreer ladder, so she got a raise. Maybe the Marshall "three" should ask for a raise..........seems to work other places!
Cheater NP, didn't they call you to let you know they were going out!? You must have been out looking for them and missed the call!
And how do YOU know that Ms. Stanton resigned "behind their backs"?
If my eyes didn't deceive me, I believe Ms. Stanton was at the hearings stating the facts under oath for herself and the others who were WRONGLY ACCUSED. I wouldn't call that "stabbing your friends in the back".
And then for you, who has been so quick to judge, to have the nerve to say that it's "sad for the other 3 accused", is mind boggling. With a friend like you, who needs enemies!?
Just out of curiosity... Did Lorna lose her friends (i.e.) the other accused teachers when she resigned behind their backs. So much for sticking together until the end. I haven't noticed them all out with Lorna anymore. She has had to find a new circle to hang with I suppose. I can't believe you stabbed your friends in the back Lorna. How sad for the other 3 accused.
Ok, let me get this straight. Carrie Hazell was informed (per testimony by Lorna Stanton) that she was not being recommended for rehire. Within a week she "suddenly remembered" that she had evidence implicating those she called friends, took it to Donny Quick, and was subsequently rehired. And somehow she was not called upon as a witness for the district. Her friends, however, ended up on the chopping block for something they claimed they "had no part in." Why does this not sit well with me? Could Carrie be the guilty one, simply passing the buck to save her behind? I truly don't know! Will someone please explain this to me?
As of now, she has yet to show her face in this community since the trial. Who could blame her? Perhaps the Marshall community would breathe a sigh of relief if there were a new "FOR SALE" sign on Salt Pond...
I have tried very hard to stay away from this blog since the trial. The time that has been wasted and the money that has been spent to figure all of this out is frighening.
I am not originally from Marshall but I am not afraid to raise my children here an be proud of where I am from. Many of you on this blog want to talk about Marshall and how bad it is and you have lived here your whole life. Guess what? I want to tknow what you are doing to fix it? I would bet that you are part of the problem. I am prud to say that I have served on boards that are thriving. I have not served or been on any that have had trials, issues, or offered complete embarrassment. We are all voting the School Board. We have all had ur opinion in who sat at that table. But I am here to tell you that the representation of the board was horrible. It started at the center. The President had a attorney working her like a puppet. She was judging on things that she had no idea what they even meant. By the way, I don't remember seeing anything on her credentials that say sworn judge or passing the BAR exam. Quite shameful to play a role of a prestigious judge when you have no training. Not quite an Emmy awarding performance.
Next thing on my mind. I read though here some of you talking about coahes in this community. Marshall has great kids and unfortunately their families are sticking their noses in where they quite frankly don't belong. You are worried about your child being disciplined for not listening. Well, that teaching comes long before they hit the playing field. Come down out of the clouds and realize that these coaches like 99% of all educators are doing what they are passionate about. And coaches like anything else breathing want to win. Your child wants to win. I guess that most Marshall Mommy's are just that still being called "Mommy" by their teenage boy that is being disciplined by their coach rather than at home. I can't hardly stand to go to Marshall sporting events because the parents want to make excuses for their kid and not just be real about their childs ability. The truth hurts but once again.... It starts at home.
As for the hearing.... It was clear who had their ducks in a row. The defendents were prepared to win. And in my opinion they did. Some of you are talking about Carrie Hazel and the others that told their stories. But once agai things are not fair. The problem I have is their was presentation of major wrong doings and those people are not in trouble. I hope very strongly that action is taken against them as well. The District needs a new attorney. What a circus we witnessed with him.
AS for your comments about social status or whatever. Who cares if people go on vacation... In fact, should I be mad that I wasn't invited to go or be glad that these people got ot of the fire and went and relaxed for a few days. I wonder if CH was the one that started that since she has been these three teachers friend this whole time. She was at Ms. Plummers house the night she got notice to resign. Very classy work. Does anyone care that CH was out of town during the hearing. Good thing she kept her job so she can afford to go to the races out of town whenever she wants. But can I just tell you that those that are involved in this case I can tell you that BP, AW, CM, DP, and CH all have been members of the golf club in Marshall. In fact, all but CH still are. She canceled hers once her name was pulled out of hiding. For those of you who think that the club is so bad, I should tell you that our small children can play golf and participate there but not at the public course. Which is a joke in itself. If you are jealous that you are not a member of the Country Club... JOIN. You choose how you spend your time and money and so do these teachers. In fact, should the Board President drink wine in public?
In the end, I think that Board for the most part has had a very unfortunate situation arise in front of them. It is hard to see a Wolf in a sheep's clothing. And Mr. Quik is exactly that and unfortunately the Board was not smart enough to look at the situation from both sides first instead they have humiliated this entire community. Nothing has been mentioned about the turmoil at the Library with sensored material and who was in charge of their Board and that mess. Common Denominator? Does anyone else see one?
Marshall is exactly what a disgrace looks like and it goes back to those of you that want to bad mouth it instead of fix it. Come down off your pedestal and do something for the good instead of bashing everyone that is trying. Who is the disgrace? You people also talk about previous administration.... Your voted Board hired him. It starts at the very top. It starts at the roots..... Shameful from the beginning.
(There are typos but I have spent way too much time reading all of this so I am not going back in to change this blog.)
I came across this one day and found it humorous.
Severe Weather Testing Protocols:
http://www.proteacher.net/discussions/sh...
First of all, no parent (including teachers with children) gets to choose their child's teacher. That policy has been in effect for several years. I'd put Marshall's professional staff up against any in the state. They're a dedicated group of individuals who care about their students.
I just got back to this section and caught up on the commentary. Firstly, I think most will agree that No child Left Behind is a disaster that must be discarded at the earliest possible moment. The conundrum is what should take its place? The sage comments of NanaDot and others are a starting point. The problem is that no one in authority is listening. Every member of the school board, and administration should be reading this blog. I doubt that any are. I would much prefer to see only general guidelines from federal and state education authorities, with the nuts and bolts of the education system devised at the local level. Those guidelines should deal more with what local authorities can not do rather than limit the options that may enhance the unique local environment. For instance public school boards could not install a system that featured any particular philosophy or theology. On the other hand outside authority would have little voice in how best to reach and teach the students in the local social environment. They would only have authority to advise as to available options when previous paths failed, to mentor rather than mandate. Any one size fits all system in a country as diverse, and large as we are is doomed to failure, and will ultimately end in the trash heap where No Child Left Behind will soon repose.
reader101 - you got it, and have summed up very nicely the eternal debate in education - basic facts vs. comprehension/critical thinking, and finding the balance between the two, and how to reliably and validly measure that learning...
Unfortunately, NCLB has been a disaster, and has only forced teachers to focus, not on learning but on, as you noted, test-taking skills. It is a not-so-small miracle that so many teachers remain dedicated to their subjects and their students, and hang in there to survive yet another round of political one-upmanship that is supposed to prove which administration is 'the (better-than-the-previous) education administration'.
This country spends more money on education than any other industrialized nation just about the worst results - but then those other schools fund education, not sports, busses, after-school programs, etc. Not that those things are bad, given our culture and our size, but it DOES divert money from classroom materials, libraries, teacher support, tutors, etc. We have made the choices in this country that football, busses, and after-school supervision since so many parents have to work to make ends meet are important activities and services. But we also pay a price for that...
FYI it is a clique not a click.
The whole point of the standardized tests is to assure that students are learning and that teachers can teach. It's an accountability measure. Not everyone who enjoys working with children can teach. It's just the way it is. Everyone else needs to prove performance to keep their job, teacher do too. In fact, with the education of young people at stake, teachers especially need to be accountable, to show they can indeed teach. That being said, I wish there were a better method of testing to prove that instead of a test that the outcomes affect not only the teachers position, but the budget of the entire district. This could lead to pressure to perform from other staff and administration, and who knows what too much pressure could lead too. Perhaps opening test packets early and prompting students on the answers.
I have a child who is entering 3rd grad this year, and a good part of 2nd grade class work dealt with how to take the MAP test. It seems the school district has become more concerned with teaching children test taking skills rather than teaching children the knowledge they need to retain that will help them succeed not only on the MAP test, but throughout their lives.
It's not just about multiplication tables, and science facts, children need to learn to comprehend what they read, to think critically, to be able to problem solve, etc.
Marshall IS and ALWAYS will be a Clickish town. No mabey none of the teachers involved NAMED OR UNNAMED in this matter or in this blog were born with a sliver spoon, But there are some people in this town that think they are big stuff because of what side of town they live on or who they married or what Golf Course they play at ect.. I have lived in Marshall most of my life. When I got a chance to move back to town after living in a big city for 3yrs I couldnt wait to move home. I had a child at Eastwood this year and when I was given a choice of which teachers class I wanted my child to be in. I can Honestly say I didnt like ANY of the choices I had,I could have come up with 10 reasons why I didnt like any one of them, Its Marshall Everyone knows Everyone and thier business.My wife and I were Happy with the teacher we chose. My wife and I also graduated from Marshall High my wife went on to get her teaching Degree at MOVAL. When she graduated she applied For every teaching position Marshall had to offer.She wasnt offered a job in marshall because the jobs were given to the children or other family members of current Teachers or school board members.This kind of stuff happens everywhere. Im not ashamed to be from or live in Marshall. I am however ashamed of the way that the kids of this town are being Deprived of the quality education they deserve. I know I have rambled on for a while now but to make my point. I bet if you get right down to it there is not one third grade teacher or aid at eastwood that is Completely innocent in this matter. I dont have the right last name. I lived on the north side of town. I didnt do well in school not because of the teachers because I didnt give a damn if I could go and fix my mistakes I would of worked harder to make good grades, but guess what I have a good job, I make good money and can afford to live on any side of town I want.
niuges - agreed, but the current system has serious flaws, too - referring to the fad of 'high stakes' standardized testing/NCLB... some of these have a place, but obviously ANOTHER standardized test on which your entire budget is hinged is not the ANSWER...
We do in fact already punish those who do not or cannot learn. We already have seniors who cannot multiply or divide, or make change. "Systems" do not motivate anyone - people do, but systems provide the framework within which we operate, and we CAN develop systems in which non-desirable behavior is simply not encouraged or rewarded. So far, however, we have not been willing to invest the time or the money. Small classes, highly qualified teachers, enrichment opportunities for ALL students, and multiple assessment methods all work. But that is too big a fish to fry here...
As far as the current local case goes, I still think it was largely a socilites' p'ing contest, and should never have gotten to the level it did.
As far as teachers 'playing favorites' along social class lines, that is unfortunately nothing new or illegal or even un-American, depending on which Puritan-descendant you talk to...
"Ma'am, we are NOT a 'for profit' institution, and we don't care how many times we have to teach you how to do it - but we WILL teach you how to do it to the highest standards we have, and you WILL learn it to that standard"... Nice.. but I have never known a DI or Gunny that would give you a second chance to learn the lesson for free!! Hence the yelling, the spitting, the "drop down and give me 20", the footlockers dumped out about the barracks, etc. There is another saying from the military, "Never underestimate the power of negative reinforcement." This type of motivation is ultimately why their system works. This is a technique that unfortunately will not be accepted in American Public Schools.
I am just saying that it is horrible to think that it is ok for seniors not to know their multiplication tables to 12 using the premise that they have a computer available to them. It would be painfully obvious to me that the system didn't work and failed to teach them an important life skill. The system failed to motivate them to learn that skill. The system failed to assign consequences for them not learning that skill. Then the system tries to cover up they didn't learn that skill. Because they didn't learn that skill and it is time to graduate society will then be the one that punishes them for not learning.
milliemouse - i'm not sure you really want to open that can of worms, but the answer is relatively easy to construct and apply... it's called criterion-referenced mastery... When you learn to spell 100 basic sight words at 90 percent accuracy, then you go to the next set or level. When you learn your multiplication facts to 12 x 12, to 100 percent accuracy, you go to the next step. When you memorize the Table of Elements to 85 percenct accuracy, you go to the next step. You may have a senior still working on their multiplication facts but it doesn't matter because it's all on the math room computer...
This approach requires that teachers be facilitators, active organizers, widely knowledgeable in their areas and in the pedagogy of THAT area. It also eliminates, largely, the issued of age or grade based standardized testing in favor of individualized mastery... or as one sergeant-major put it to me, "Ma'am, we are NOT a 'for profit' institution, and we don't care how many times we have to teach you how to do it - but we WILL teach you how to do it to the highest standards we have, and you WILL learn it to that standard"...
What should be done to those who abuse the system we already have? Written warning in permanent file; loss of rank; change of venue; required retraining, classroom daily plans pre=approved and supervised, classes video=taped, and proctored administration of standardized tests by outside sources. Make it uncomfortable and very open...
So, NanaDot, what should be done to those that cheat? I hate to see good teachers lose their jobs but some kind of punishment should be applied. Any ideas?
While I do know that this is very traumatic, understand that this is happening all across the country, not that it makes it right, and that this may be the most lasting legacy of NCLB.
"The increase in accountability programs, requiring the demonstration of "adequate yearly
progress" through the use of "high stakes" testing may have contributed to the increased number of documented cases of cheating in K - 12 public schools (Driscoll, 2000)."
Driscoll, D. P. (2000). A statement on allegations of cheating on the MCAS. Internet document (http://www.doe.mass.edu/news/feb00/0225pr.html).
"In state after state conducting "high-stakes" testing, allegations of cheating have been on the rise. Mike Boulus, Michigan's deputy treasurer, reported that Michigan investigated nearly 500 incidents of possible test irregularities in 2001, a tenfold increase over the number investigated in earlier years...
One study in North Carolina found that 35 percent of teachers surveyed were aware of "inappropriate test administration practices."
Critics of standardized tests see a direct relationship between the high stakes and the pressure to cheat.
"When you put a huge amount of weight on one indicator -- test performance -- you provide an incentive for cheating," says Walter Haney, senior research associate at Boston College's Center for the Study of Testing."
http://www.thenotebook.org/editions/2003...
If the teachers in question are indulging in 'social status segregation', then there are other issues going on that need to be addressed.
I've taught 30+ years and I have experienced and survived a variety of state testing for students for the state of Missouri. From observation there are only 2 reasons why a teacher would break the protocol for state testing: the teacher wants the appearance of walking on water or they are just paranoid about "testing". If the school board believes they have enough evidence to make a call on this situation, and the teachers are not tenured; they can be released without a reason. The school board does not have to give a reason for non-tenure teachers. Most boards handle the situation like this: If you resign we will give you a letter of recommendation; if you do not resign there will be no letter of recommendation offered. If these teachers are guilty of not following protocol and have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they would have been better off to have turned in a letter of resignation than to have gone through all this. Your past will follow you.
How long before a decision is made?
3 things Marshall can't handle:
a good restaurant, social differences, and how to use a blog!
Okay, here's the deal! I'm SHOCKED that kids like 16-year-old xmarshallx are reading this and seeing how catty the adults are in Marshall. Talk about your positive adult anonymous role models! The bottom line is if this thing doesn't get resolved, all of these teachers will do an awesome job of caring about your kids. Again, this is not a LEGAL issue, but an ethical issue. NEWS FLASH! It's not the end of the world. Teachers, like all human beings (including the people who write on this blog), are imperfect. If you have a child entering the third grade this year, you can be assured they will be greeted with love and enthusiasm. Stop talking about the society issues. I can't think of anyone in Marshall I'd consider high society. If you look at the families of all of the people involved in this mess, none if them were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They all come from hard-working, middle class families. I guarantee, Eastwood will be watched like a hawk this year. I hope Mr. Angelhow is ready for the challenge. John will be ready to greet each child and teacher with a smile. Can't we just move on, and let the system run it's course. Surely, there is something else to talk about.
While I'm at it, Mr. Crump, are there any circumstances by which the anonymity of someone responding in this forum would be revealed. I would think people might be careful of what they say, lest they be subpeoned.
What a laughing stock this school district has turned into. Once one of the most well-respected school districts in the state has degenerated into THIS muck and mire. What a shame!
The REAL losers are the kids, not just the Eastwood kids, but ALL the kids, Pre-K through Senior! Imagine the raised eyebrows when these kids list Marshall as the school district they graduated from NOW! I wonder how many scholarships, grants, athletic opportunities, and so forth will go to others because of this new stigma of Marshall being full of problems!
Recently conversations with other school administrators asking me about my take on things in Owl Land indicate that the school district's reputation has been seriously hurt in the past several years and it isn't getting any better with THIS muck and mess.
The other day I was listening to a radio show in Kansas City were a lucky caller was asked to sing her school's fight song to win tickets to High School Musical at Starlight. I actually thought about calling in myself and singing the Fight Song but then I thought about what I have been hearing around education circles and decided that while I had a moment of remembering "the good ol' days" that right now, based on the recent events (this MAP mess and the financial mismanagement) I am NOT very proud of my Owl Heritage.
I TRULY hope that the day will quickly return when the Marshall Public Schools is again the envy of many others, NOT the big joke!
At least I can honestly say that I am a product of the Marshall School System from the days when a Marshall diploma opened a LOT of doors and was a symbol of having a quality, well-rounded education. (I was never very good at Algebra and Geometry but at least I can make change without a calculator!!!)
My sympathy to everyone in the Marshall District. Stephen Wright couldn't pull his usual bullying tactics to force resignations and, instead, has now publicly embarrassed not only the school but the entire community!
Why would Carrie Hazell need an attorney? I thought she did not do anything wrong. She is in the clear as far as her job goes! Let's not start on defamation of character as three teachers that sat on the stand on Tuesday and Wednesday may have that covered! Maybe Carrie needs to use her attorney for Mr. Quick sharing information that I am sure they had a deal about..... Wonder if Ms. Carrie is aware that her name was ALL OVER that trial!
johndOE3 - It sounds like you have a personal conflict with Carrie. Your personal attacks on Carrie are defamation of her character in a public forum. Her attorney I am sure, appreciates the fact you have placed your feelings in print. There is no need to be so negative. What you are stating is extremely out of line and is damaging her character. I am sure there are more constructive ways to use your time, such as taking the time to read to a child or helping a child learn to write. If you are such an "expert" in education and educational law, by all means teach. Having an impact in a classroom is more constructive than being the negative person you are through your posts. Dealing with people with such a negative view on education is the number one reason why teachers leave education- it is definitely not the kids.
Young Owl how do you know if your a Dem. or a Rep.?
I would really like to know?
abc135;
I am glad you can read minds, I have no idea what the truth is, hell I was at the meeting and don't know who was telling the truth.
And further more only the witness's know for 100% sure who was telling the truth period!
Sure as hell not the lawyers, school board or anyone else in that room!
To be honest I would bet the truth is somewhere in the middle.
johndOE3, you couldn't have said it any better:
"As far as defamation of her character. A lot of peoples character, reputations, pride have been challenged on this blog. "
Former Owl,
First of all the hunt is over. The information that was released at the hearing exposed EVERYONE
that was involved.
As far as defamation of her character. A lot of peoples character, reputations, pride have been challenged on this blog.
Carri's is a girl in a small town as are the others that have been discussed on this blog since May. I am just asking questions to help everyone understand her role in this because there are a lot of rumors out there.
I would think her family and close friends would want the truth out there as well.
Gal66,
it has been clear throughout your million other posts that you are siding with the accusERS, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you say one side would take a lie detector test and the other would have a fit, who you are really talking about.
johndOE3 - It sounds like you are on a witch hunt for Carrie. You may want to tone down your personal attacks on Carrie as they are defamation of her character and you are attacking her character in a public forum. Once something is in print and attached to your name, it is easily attained for record. Her attorney I am sure, appreciates the fact you have placed all of your feelings in print. There is no need to create such a negative impact on a teacher in a small town. What you are stating is extremely out of line and is damaging her character. I am sure there are more constructive ways to use your time, such as taking the time to read to a child or helping a child learn to write.
My question at this point is how does the school board plan to move forward? Have they learned anything? Can they actually stand back, look at the larger picture and carefully and thoughtfully reflect on what has happened here and negotiate in good faith? Are those to whom more has been given going to understand that of them more is expected?
It appears that this whole episode has been a socialites' power war - 'old guard' versus 'uppity newbies'... and that is really destructive and stifling. You can argue and nit-pick about whatever but the absolute bottom line was about who was 'more' credible, not based on actual evidence or proof but upon social standing in this community - regardless of law - and that IS disturbing. And it already HAS made Marshall look bad...
niuges made a whole bushel of valid points, not to mention the potential for further actions. Kids are sensitive to adult tension, and it does not bode well for the children at this point.
Gal - Here is a question you posted and I quote "Where do you get your information that the names of the accused have been cleared?"
[Response] The evidence, or lack thereof, shows that the FALSELY ACCUSED are not guilty of the charges.
And here is another question you posted and I quote "PS I will abide by the decision of the Board and not cry and wine (or whine) about it WILL YOU?"
[Response] Of course I won't cry and whine, I'm not a Democrat.
abc135:
How do you come up with the idea that I think I know what the ACCUSERS want or think
Here is what I posted word for word.
If you need to read it more than once please fill free to do so!
-- Posted by Gal66 on Fri, Jul 11, 2008, at 11:22 AM
"I know what I would like to see done that's give both sides a lie detector test.
I really think we would come a lot closer to getting the truth than what is going on now.
I know the lawyers would tell both sides not to do it and there is no way to make them do it but I sure wish there was.
I would bet you that one side or the other would glad to take the test and the other would have a fit!!!!"
I did not take sides because I do not know what truth is!!!!!!!!
****************************************************************************************************
Young Owl;
I think I get far more than you at this point as I am a very Old Owl.............
I have no idea if this is a witch hunt or not, I really hope that is was not because that would make Marshall as a whole look really bad!
An as far as dedication of the falsely accused (WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THEY ARE FALSELY ACCUSED) I would say they MIGHT just say that in hopes that that just might make a difference to the board when the make the decision.
And here is a question you posted and I quote "Now that their names have been cleared, what is the penalty for the FALSE ACCUSERS for inciting such a time consuming, expensive, damaging charade?"
Where do you get your information that the names of the accused have been cleared?
I for one have seen no such announcement!!!!!
PS I will abide by the decision of the Board and not cry and wine about it WILL YOU?
You just don't get it do you Gal!? Let the witch hunt die. It's only making the accusers look more ridiculous. If it continues, the FALSE ACCUSERS, who stated under oath that they cheated, could lose their jobs in the end.
And isn't it a testament to the dedication of the FALSELY ACCUSED to do what's best for the students when "they testified they would be happy to return and honor their contracts"!
Now that their names have been cleared, what is the penalty for the FALSE ACCUSERS for inciting such a time consuming, expensive, damaging charade?
Niuges has some very good points. That is what I have been trying to say. Maybe instead of worrying about who went to who's house when or when someone stopped being friends with who......everyone needs to start worrying about what is going to happen when school starts.
Teachers that do not have contracts at the end of July are probably not expereinced, so who is going to help them get ready to possibly teach a class in a few days?
I think another thing to worry about is that the "accused", if they return to work, are going to be working with the "accusers", maybe not all in the same building, but district meetings happen people. Will any of those people be able to work together again after having such a bad taste in their mouths all summer?
The CHILDREN are what is most important here......they are why we have a school in the first place.
Gal66 why do you think you know so much about what the accusERS want/think?
i'd be willing to put money down that says the teachers being accusED would LOVE to take a lie detector test to prove everyone wrong that has been spouting off this whole time.
I know what I would like to see done that's give both sides a lie detector test.
I really think we would come a lot closer to getting the truth than what is going on now.
I know the lawyers would tell both sides not to do it and there is no way to make them do it but I sure wish there was.
I would bet you that one side or the other would glad to take the test and the other would have a fit!!!!
Here's one thing everyone needs to know about teachers and students. Everyone one of them is different. Some teachers teach straight from book. Some teachers forget a book exsist. Some teachers want to see all your work, some just want the right answer. Some teachers need perfect puncutation, while other teachers just want to see that you know the subject. And students are same way. Some students learn by reading, some students learn by watching, some students need to do it themselves. Some students need a light hearted class room, while others work well with a strict classroom. What people need to realize is teachers can't teach to each student. A teacher needs to teach the way they feel most comfortable in giving the information to the child. So if your child is more laid back like i was, then they won't like a strict classroom setting, but if that's how that teacher teaches, then as a student you need to adapt and get through it. It's a good life lesson, if you went from a nice boss who let you come and go as you wanted, to a strict boss who wants exact times, you can't just keep coming and going, you have to adapt to the new guys style or your out. Just remember that when a child comes home complaining about a teacher, there is a good chance they are blowing things out of proportion because they just aren't happy with the class setting.
Response by Eric Crump/Editor:
Just one clarification, re: "They strung this out all summer..." The hearing had been scheduled several weeks earlier but the defense requested an extension in order to better prepare.
My Dear Mr. Crump:
Let us clarify your clarification. Fact is the School District insisted on pursuing these charges. From the presentation of their dismal case at the hearing they absolutely had no business doing so. Fact, the School District and their attorneys insisted that the Due Process hearing include the 3 defendants simultaneously. I am sure a ploy to make it more difficult for the defense attorney and of course to try and shorten the process to one hearing instead of 3. But a move like this sure to generate a request for continuance. Even at that it is the very nature of procedures like this to be delayed for various reasons. Everyone knows that, including the School Board and their attorneys, and yet they made a decision to force this to a hearing. Therefore their actions got this result. "They strung this out all summer..."
Folks I am just trying to look at this from a practical and logical position. I understand the issues about "cheating", "sitting good examples", that teachers are public servants and entrusted with our children, they should be held at a higher level of moral perpetuity.
But again, bottom line is there has been no crime committed. This is only an ethics issue. As Eric reported in a previous blog even DESE has to allow this to be handled on a local level. So let us do some arithmetic and logically focus this whole situation on what the primary goal of the School District should be. Doing what is best for children!!
By my calculations, (I am sure Eric will clarify if I am in error.) as per Anita Wright at the hearing it could take up to 20 days to render a decision. If that is true it will be the end of July. I believe school registration begins somewhere around the 6th of August and school starts around the 16th. If the School Board finds to terminate and best case the teachers accept that without appeal then what? They try and hire 3 new teachers and have them ready to teach in 16 days. Would candidates be available? If so, what would be their qualifications if they didn't already have a contract so late in the summer? Is that what is best for students? Or maybe they will decide to use long term subs or even just overload the other classrooms with additional students. Is that what is best for our students?
What if the teachers appeal? Do they continue to teach through the appeal process? Does the district put them on leave and hire additional teachers or long term subs and pay 2 people to do the job of 1 person? On a financial strapped district is that a good decision?, is that what is best for our children?
If they find in favor of the 3 teachers, although they testified they would be happy to return and honor their contracts what will that environment be like? At least one of those teachers will not be teaching 3rd grade, logically they will have to be broken up and moved to other buildings meaning they will have to learn new curriculums and procedures on short notice. Is that what is best for kids? I would hope to entrust that the teachers are professionals and would act as such, but my observation of human nature over the years tells me there will be many hurt feelings, disappointment, and contempt among many teachers when these 3 return. Is that good for children?
There are several sports articles where this can be bashed out...
since when did this turn into sports talk? and whether or not your kid should play? if we can't keep on subject we should keep our thoughts to ourselves. in fact that is probably what everyone should do anyway. grow up marshall.
The "name" talk has got to stop. Quit making excuses for why your son sucks and is not playing. When I played (not to long ago) i had the biggest "name" on the team. I played hard, showed up, never complained, and was a model of a perfect teamate. Guess what, i didn't even start my senior year, why, because I wasn't the best player at my spot. The best players play period, if your kid isn't playing, it's for one simple reason, he isn't good enough at the sport!!
Parents let your kids learn now, because if you baby them everytime they get yelled at now, and teach them it's ok to walk away from a mean guy, or to talk back and whine now, what the hell are they going to do when they get in the real world? because i gurantee you when they get a job in the real world, they will get yelled at, they will get cussed at, and they will be threatened. Mommy can't help you then. Life is hard, kids need to start learning that!!
Hey easy guys... I was just commenting... I did not say I had a kid playing, I did not say I had a kid sit the bench... Perfect point of not having all of the facts here.... I have set in the stands for 1 game... I really didn't mean for this to turn into a baseball bash... My point was there's alot of wrong that has to be made right for our kids... I will say you can't judge a kid or his coach until you've had both.... Your right kids have to know respect and dedication... Coaches and teachers have to know kids, and when their putting out their fires!!!! That's their job... It's our job as parents to raise good kids.. We have to set examples, the coaches and teachers have to set examples.. Didn't mean to get you fired up!!! Have a nice day....
YOU SAID IT, mtownresident!!!!!
Okay, there are a few things I want to comment on. First of all, there are several comments about the "social class" of these teachers. I can say that my child had one of the accused teachers and she was great. I am no where near her social class, I don't have a "name" or hang out with her "group" but my child loved her. It sounds to me that YOU are not comfortable being around these people or you are jealous of the social class these teachers are in and do not have enough confidents in yourself. And they may have been caught by some of you talking about certain family's (not saying it is right) but was it the family that sent their child to school day after day with out a shower or in dirty clothes? The child can not be to blame at that age but the parents can!!! No matter what "social class" you are in you can send your child to school clean!!!
Ohmygees- you made a comment about the coaches yelling and cussing at the kids. Let me say first that I do not think they should cuss at them but for goodness sakes the coaches are going to yell. If your kid messes up then they need to be told they didn't do it right and need to try again. These kids today would not be able to handle coaches when I played sports. We got cussed at, yelled at, and things thrown at us. But we were a damn good team and had so much respect for our coach because we knew he truly cared. And if you are witnessing the yelling and cussing at practice, DON'T GO, parents should not be allowed at practice. Cut the apron strings and let someone that knows about the sport teach your child. As far as good players riding the bench and others playing because of their name, again I have to disagree. As I said before my family is not one of the "names" in town but my child plays.
ohmygees - if parents like you would teach you kid alittle hard work and respect for coaching you kid wouldn't ride the bench as much. When I played coaches were way harder on players than they are now, and I played at very high levels. I've seen some summer ball games your refering too, and believe me, the best kids are playing (though there are very many of them). Quit babying your boy and let him grow up and be a man, making his own way. Parents need to quit complaining about the coaching all the time and try to help their kids be better players.
okay, you late nighters... This is crazy, I feel like I need to go to a news stand and buy
the Enquirer or Star Magazine! Amen to to NIUGES and THIS TOWN IS OVER...... You are so insightful.... Yes kids do sit the bench, but better than that they are cussed out, and belittled.... Have you been to a baseball game lately? These kids have been through so many coaches, and knocked so far into the ground by screaming head coaches and screaming head coaches dads that summer time is no longer about baseball unless you go to the park...How is cussing at a kid suppose to make them better... I thought practise made them better.... It's ashame where the road has taken us... It is time for our kids to have better, and what is going on with our district right now is not helping out kids....Again, I go back to the respect issue... It is gone with kids and teachers... Isn't this what this whole thing is about? Someone lost respect for someone, so in the end it was time to get even.... Getting rid of teachers that are in it for the paycheck is what will make the difference... You have to love kids, and love your job to be a good teacher... In my day, a good teacher would shed tears over kids, want them to prosper, and never belittle them. Let's look back to last night, and the night before.... Who really loves the kids? Where do kids want to be? And, are they safe, learning, and happy to come to school? Let think about kids... not the test, not who went to Mexico, not social status, but truely our kids.....As a parent of four, I will take any teacher that loves my kids as much as I do.... Cussing them (sorry, I have only seen this at a higher level), belittling them, judging them by their family status, this makes for a poor teacher...Please lets really think about what we've learned from the blog... Did we witness the classrooms? Do we know the teachers? What is really going on here? If we clean house at Eastwood, then dear Marshall Public Schools, lets clean house across the playig field....It's survey time, and I mean that sincerely.... Thank you for your time....
Who all is for homeschooling their kids now? Or better yet putting them over at St. Peters?
johndOE3,
I plead the 5th.
milliemouse wrote: "This is not a kangaroo court, NanaDot" - that is correct. Your reference is in error however, in that I said, IF the Board has their mind made up before hand, THEN it is a 'kangaroo court'... Having attended last night's hearing,I then wrote "The school board has observed all procedural and due process requirements as far as I can tell.."
Niuges, guffaw, and I are also correct in that the evidence and testimony as presented under oath raise serious questions about the credibility of the witnesses more than the defendants, and about the process, or lack thereof, that was followed/not followed by the Interim Superintendent, the SD attorney, and the Board.
Along with niuges, I would have to say "I am sure 30 years from now I still will never understand how Mr. Quick and Mr. Wright (S.D. attorney) convinced the School Board that they had a case they could win with the evidence and witnesses that they had. It was a complete blunder."
And no, I don't have any relations, friends, in-laws, etc. involved - I am an interested tax-paying citizen, parent, and concerned resident. Actually the hardest part about all of this has been trying to sort out all the innuendo and 'you-know-who-I-mean' nonsense. Since I wouldn't personally know any of them if I ran into them, all I have had to go by is what precious little actual fact was reported in this papaer and presented at the hearing.
i have been in this town my entire life, went through our so call public school system K-12 no real help with issues or changes from then to now just a lot of students just sleep walkinging there way through these years and just getting by, you are still picking your sports by name or statius a lot of better players just riding the bench watching instead of playing and losing out on thier chance at the next step up in life, and picking school class leaders by social statius etc. also hiring teachers and other postions by names,familys or friends 4-EVER, get out the cleaning supplies from the closet and get rid of 98% of these long term relationships and replace with a new crew that will play by the RUEL's and stop the [CYA] for those whom don't know what that means COVERING YOU A_ _ !!! WHICH THEY HAVE GOTTEN REALLY GOOD AT, AND BY THE WAY IF THERE IS ANY MIS-SPELLINGS OR PUNCUACTIONS, REMEMBER WAS SCHOOLED HERE. the time for change is now LOL! and as far as clicks in the MARSHALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS it runs all the way from students to teachers that have gotten good at talking about other people that they feel that they are better than the outside group, and they are also doing a good job of grooming thier children to be just like them , when god created us all it was equal and you all changed the rules, true or false we all get what is coming to us in the end judgement is coming for us all some day !!!!
Mark Nasteff--I believe I would put that name in my address book incase I ever needed a good lawyer. This guy beat the District's attorney like a rented mule. He did so with confidence, preparation, and following the step by step classic model for legal defense.
The District's attorney was totally inadequate. I am not sure if I would go so far as saying he was inept but the case he presented was certainly dismal, and probably should be described as flat out pathetic! If the School Board was not mortified and totally embarrassed by this display then they should be checked to see if they have heart beats and make sure their brain stems are connected.
I know from reading the blog that most of you are in someway connected to this case either emotionally or personally. That is why if this was a trial by jury most of you could not serve on the panel. The trial and jury must be impartial. In the case of this hearing the School Board must be impartial. They must base their decision on the evidence and testimony presented from both sides. If their decision greatly deviates from what is supported by the record then an opportunity for appeal is presented. BTW, Mr. Nasteff positioned for an appeal from the opening statement.
I am sure 30 years from now I still will never understand how Mr. Quick and Mr. Wright (S.D. attorney) convinced the School Board that they had a case they could win with the evidence and witnesses that they had. It was a complete blunder. Only further extenuating the long list of similar blunders and poor leadership decisions over the past 4 years or so. They strung this out all summer keeping everyone at opposition to each other, further destroying the confidence that community members have in a troubled school district, and further injecting morale problems within the district's employees. All for what?.. They didn't even have a case. They had nothing.
Refute the evidence, and discredit the witnesses. Show that there is doubt as to guilt by establishing a foundation for other possibilities. Mark Nasteff did his job and did exactly that. He expertly dispatched the prosecution witnesses as he if he were just stepping on ants. He vaporized the only physical evidence that the prosecution had because it was attached to their weakest witness. Then he left a huge question of doubt by suggesting malicious motivation on Mrs. Hazell. An obvious witness, however the prosecution chooses not to call her to testify. Mrs. Hazell was also connected to the only other piece of physical evidence that the prosecution "said" they had but also chose not to submit. These decisions only further boosted the defense's case.
Bottom line. The School District pushed this situation to a hearing. They turned it over to the system. Once it goes to court or in the case a Due Process hearing it doesn't matter if the accused teachers are guilty or not. What matters now is that School District has the proof and a strong case to prove they are guilty. The burden of proof was on the District. The school district had a week case and even a weaker attorney. The defense attorney was excellent and presented a stronger defense. The School Board is now put in a position where they have to find in favor of the defendants. Not to do so would make them look ridiculous and perhaps even incompetent. Of course they can choose to go the other direction and without a doubt the case will be appealed and in front of a real judge, and with the same attorneys, the same evidence, and the same witnesses the defendants will surely win. The result will be the same only the District will have to spend more of the precious few dollars they have left and of course spread even more discord throughout the community. As Oliver Hardy would say, "Well, Stanley, this is another fine mess you've gotten us into". However, I am not feeling so humorous about this situation.
The accusations are not false. A 2005 test was copied and used. The thumbdrive is a game where a teacher plugged in the exact questions and answers from that test using a Jeopardy game. This is not a kangaroo court, NanaDot. I believe you have seen the evidence as well. People who know the truth really need to stop misleading the public!! It is a sad situation because these are good teachers but what they did was wrong. And the other teachers are also wonderful teachers who did the right thing by speaking the truth. How is it that so many people in Marshall have such screwed up morals that they are angry with the accusers and justifying the wrong doing?
Cheaters Never Prosper I could not have said it any better
Well done young lady or young man you give me hope
xmarshallx - you said "This town needs to look past the fact of who the accused are and look at the evidence against them" - that is what happened at the hearings. You also have to look at ALL the evidence and look past WHO the witnesses and accusers are, and apply the same standard to the evidence.
innocentuntilprovenguilty,
I am sorry, I have not a clue what you are talking about? I am talking about the cheating issue...
I guess that is a hard question for anyone...I mean for better or worse and that vow was made infront of a much larger and more important judge.
xmarshallx,
From the mouths of BABES!!!!! Good job kiddo. It's sad that it takes a 16 year old child to sum it up and make it real. You go girl, or boy?? I am proud of you for speaking up.
To Owl12345,
A comment on your earlier blog... Just because the accusers scored higher on the MAP test than the accused does not mean they cheated. If this were not a cheating issue and you saw the test scores, you would think that the accused were better teachers than the accused. Right? There is a difference between teaching "TO" the test (which is teaching procedures) and teaching "THE" test (which is prompting the actual questions ahead of time, or cheating)... Many teachers use the items that DESE releases from the internet from the previous year to practice with there students (legally). The difference, the accused used (current) MAP test items to prompt their students before the test. No offense to you I hope.
mrsmom-
You should be worried....your child is going to be in a building were the teachers will be evil to Kleinschmidt, since she testified agaist them.I really feel sorry for the kids.
Does anyone else on this blog have concerns for next years students? I am scared to death for my child who is supposed to be in one of the "accused" classrooms next year. What kind of work environment will Eastwood be next year if the district decides to keep the teachers? If the accused get let go from their jobs what quality of teacher will fill their shoes? How will the district hire three new teachers a month before school starts when all the good teachers already have jobs?
How can anybody really say that these teachers are not guilty? There is more than enough evidence to prove that there was SOME wrong doing. I am 16 and I attend Marshall Public Highschool. I have attended Marshall Public Schools my whole life. I know one of the accused teachers very well, and there is no doubt in my mind that cheating occured. I think all 3 teachers are guilty, however, I do 100% believe that there were more involved. When I was in 4th grade, I was kicked out of school for one whole week for cheating on an in class homework assignment, I was 9 years old. These ADULT teachers were caught cheating and they may be "let off the hook?" That is completely rediculous and hypocritical. There are consequences for your actions. This town is so small, everybody knows everybody. These teachers are all well respected Marshall Citizens, I understand that, however, you can't base this on how they are as a person. People are basing there opinions on how well they no the person or by there social class. It makes me very sad how much the Marshall Community is like Marshall High School, it basically comes down too who is popular and in the "click." This town needs to look past the fact of who the accused are and look at the evidence against them. These teachers may be great people, but they are teachers and role models to kids like me and have to set a good example. I do believe in second chances, but first you have to pay the consequence.
If only,
If these ladies are so brave and so interested in standing up for what is right, I wonder, hypothetically, IF one of their spouses was doing something illegal, would they step forward to right that wrong??
Hmmmmmm, I just wonder.
I really feel badly for Marshall and all involved in this issue. I'm glad I can sleep easily at night knowing that I live in a community where none of this type of drama exists. Here, we have no suspicious, hateful, corrupt, back-biting, underhanded, politically driven disagreements or chaos that would ever affect the next generation. Maybe you should use Sweet Springs as a model for decorum and leadership without issues. Wow, really sucks to be you guys!
I just want to ask you...what motive do the witnesses have? Seriously why would anyone want to get up on the stand to have people judge them for speaking up? I am not saying what is the motive of the arsonist, I am saying do you really think the teachers left to clean up the fire have a motive?
My Apologies.... Bloganswerer, you made an excellent point as well.. Now, I need to shut up and go read or do something healthy!!
Owl12345, johnDoe3, and Guffaw,
Amen Brothers!!!!!! (or sisters, sorry)
okay, back pedal on my last input. I met Mr. Owl do you truly believe the accused? And why do we call the witnesses the accusers, I think that the school district is the accuser.
Were you all at the same hearing I was? I heard the evidence and came away with the impression that this was a slam dunk for the defense. All four of the district's witnesses were caught lying in their testimony! Angie Harvey said she approached Nancy Kleinschmidt; Nancy said she did not. Bryanne Payne stated that she had never had any performance problems; Lorna presented evidence of 13 times she was counseled regarding job deficiencies. Renee Barr testified that she followed the school's NO HOMEWORK policy and she never had a problem following a student's 504 plan; a parent and district employee stated quite the opposite, as well as adding that Renee bragged about being a "hard-ass teacher" that "some students got, some didn't." Nancy Kleinschmidt gave a beautiful, heart-wrenching testimony regarding two students only to backtrack later with "Oops. I guess those students were in the accusERS classes, NOT the accusED." What does that leave us with? Heresay, innuendo, and false assumptions. And I believe that it is obvious to all that Carrie Hazell made some "deal with the devil" to save her own teaching position. Is there any other reason that the district would continue to employ a teacher NOT recommended for re-hire by their supervisor, who makes comments to her students such as "I'll chop your heads off!" and "You are all a bunch of thugs!"
I don't blame Carrie Hazell for hiding her face. I would feel ashamed and burdened if I lied to save my own job, threw my friends under the bus, and then walked away scot-free without even having to testify! Is there any doubt left as to where the anonymous letter came from?
I came away from the hearing with the opinion that Dawn, Crystal, and Nathan had done more than create reasonable doubt. They have effectively cleared their names in the community.
More like a lifetime movie...ugh.
How much legal exposure is this creating for the district? How much cash is going to be diverted to from students to settling with whoever turns out to be wronged?
Nothing good is happening here for the community or the students and that all seems to be lost in this drama. It seems like this is all an E! News story.
Mr. Owl,
Test scores were not mentioned. How do you know so well? Seriously, do you truly believe the accusers? I guess I can understand if you are a family member, because it is only right to stick by your family. But if you are it might be better to accept that they are wrong and then forgive them.
Test scores were mentioned....funny that didn't come up at the trial. The accused teachers DID NOT have the highest test scores in the building. In fact, they were ranked fourth & fifth out of seven teachers. If they cheated, they sure didn't do a good job. In fact, two of the accusers had higher scores than the accused. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the math.....Maybe the accusers used the tests they had in possession to prepare their students to do better. DESE never questioned the test scores at Eastwood or investigated in any way. This entire situation was a district issue.
Get a Clue,
Earlier you mentioned that you thought I might be a family member of the acussed that is why I ask your conection to the case. I didn't mean you had a role in the cheating.
You also said you know more than most.
That is what everyone seems to think at this point. Therefore is is hard to determine who has a direct connection and who are just speculating and spreading rumors.
Since you say you know more can you answer anything from my previous blogs?
Big Picture,
The ladies that had to take a stand were brave, so brave. They didn't want to do this. They didn't open the can of worms.
They said they wanted their school to be full of pride and that they couldn't believe a school once so prosperous would have come to cheating, when they wanted to believe in their own skills as a teacher and of their colleagues skills.
Again, Lorna scolded one of them for coming forward, do you really think that is all that happened? Did the school's lawyer fire shots at the accussed teachers like the other lawyer? No, he is relying on the evidence.
If you think Lorna was scary and powerful, what do you think Mr. Gordon would have done with the amount of power he was aloud? Surely anthing to get his own mistakes out of the limelight. He is the key. Has noone realized this yet? Once he has left, the battered teachers are trying to make more things right.
Let our teachers truly educate our children and not just teach for the MAP tests.Shame on our administrators for creating this situation.
Let our teachers truly educate our children and not just teach for the MAP tests.Shame on our administrators for creating this situation.
Let our teachers truly educate our children and not just teach for the MAP tests.Shame on our administrators for creating this situation.
The test scores were looked at. That's how some of this came about, I think. How else would teachers at another buliding know that special education students had scores at the top of the charts.............which isn't possible friends, when you have an IEP in an area that you are being tested in.
That is not ment to be a slap at Nathan either, I honestly feel sorry for him in all of this.
Boy IF ONLY...........you hit the nail on the head! Twice in fact!
I think that we should get a look at the test scores...don't you think that would tell us who had one up on the others? If the so called map test books were part of the curriculum, every teacher is expected to teach the same curriculum based on MO Standards and the District. Everyone should have had the same shot at teaching the books. I just think that is funny because Marshall Schools have a basal series don't they? Trade books are not part of this series, and to read the same books every year that are on the map test is impossible, even if the book was part of the curriculum, anyone that is familiar with state money, knows it isn't granted for new curriculum but every 4-5 years for reading.
I would imagine that the witnesses testifing for the school district as to being aware of breeches and not acting on them were granted immunity. Especially in the case of Mrs. Harvey that presented physical evidence which reasonably could have incriminated her.
johndOE3,
My role? I know more then most lets just leave it at that.
koeller77,
We both agree on something. As long as it is legal, it is okay. And I too explain things to my children as well. Maybe WE should get Parent of the Year Awards, lol.
Is the issue here where the evidence came from? Or is the issue hear a cheater (group of cheaters) that feel confident that they cannot and won't get in trouble because they plot lies daily to hurt others or to free themselves and that they are above the law?
What kept them from giving the evidence was FEAR and rightfully so...
Would the judgement have been any lighter on them if the evidence was presented immediatley? Or again would Lorna and Mr. Gordon have ganged up upon them and found a fabricated reason to oust them?
Get a Clue,
First of all I am not a family member of any of the accused. I am a parent. Is it fair to ask your role in this?
I'm not saying Carri Hazel should lose her job because she came forward.I do wonder however, if she got to keep her job because she came forward. She had a copy of the game that was used throughout the building that was made from questions from the science MAP test for 2 or more years. One of the school districts witnesses reported that kids played that game in Carri's room during recess.
Carri did use the game as did many of the other teachers in the building. After a concern was raised that the questions were to close to the actual MAP test questions it was reported that many of the teachers stopped using the game.
Why did Carri feel that she should keep a file on a thumb drive for 2 or more years? Does she have other things on thumb drives that people should be aware of?
I am not trying to make her look guilty. She has done a good job of that herself by not being at the trial or being a witness and telling her side of this nightmare. If she is innocent why is she hiding?
This is what I don't get. Why is it okay for any of these people to hold on to evidence that as teachers they know is illegal to have in their possession. The MAP test is required by the state and teachers are required to report any cheating right away,not 2or 3 years later. Are the teachers that came forward with the information innocent because they finally came forward years later or are they going to be charged?
I can't see how it is all focused on the 3 accused and now that everything is out there other charges are not being brought forward against those who actually admitted to having thumb drives and copies of the test. You mentioned that she came up with the evidence against her friends. Do you think she created the file on the thumb drive or was she in some way a spy for the district in return for her job?
If you can help me understand this better please do so.
As far as the friendships. It doesn't make Carri guilty by association but It does make me wonder
at what point she decided they were no longer friends because they were friends till the beginning of the trial Tuesday evening when Mr. Quick reported that Carri, with the help of her husband, Scot came up with the evidence for the district.
Get a clue-
Thank you for agreeing with me that someone should think about the kids. That's really what I was talking about when I mentioned the drinking.
I can imagine how Carrie Hazel must have felt to have the rug pulled out from under her by her so called "friends". I think the district should give her a chance. Soemtimes it is hard to be at your best when your personal life is falling apart. I think I should stress, that I DO NOT know Carrie.
I would also like to make it clear that I have NEVER worked for Marshall Public Schools, I am just friends with serveral people that do.
I hope for the sake of the town that this matter gets taken care of soon. Then everyone can go about their business, hopefully with lessons learned. I also hope that the administration will keep on top of things so that this NEVER happens again.
I think that the threats and bullying by the accussed is a huge part of the picture. Set up the atmosphere at the school. They didn't care who they hurt or tainted, children, friends, employees, etc. Everyone is mad that the individuals came forward too late right? Who in their right mind would ever want to go through what they had to be put through as witnesses and will probalby again if there is an appeal trial? They were threatened, bullied, and now they have to pay for it just because they are standing up for what is right.
get a clue -
You're right, but of course, what constitutes a "good example" depends on your own personal beliefs. My step-mother is teacher (not in this district) who declined to join the Jaycees because they always had a beer tent at local festivals and expected all their membership to help out. She didn't feel that children should be seeing their teacher in that situation. However, there were plenty of other teachers who not only helped serve, but were drinking.
If you're a teetotaler, you probably don't think your kids' teachers should be drinking. If you drink at festivals and the like, you probably don't mind seeing your kids' teachers out there with you. Personally? I don't care what they do, as long as it's legal. It's MY job to make sure my kids know what is right and wrong, and if the teacher does something I don't believe in, I explain it to my kids in that manner.
it seems this blog is getting entirely too small for this little gossip town. maybe we should all step back and look at the big picture. these are ALL real people in our community. who are we to judge their character and speak such things about them, all while hiding under some alias online?
koeller77,
Point well made. But if you are saying that these teachers should be setting good examples, by not drinking, what about the teachers that do other things? I am sure that there are teachers, not saying that there are any here in Marshall so don't get me wrong, that are perhaps smoking a little pot here and there or maybe in a gay or lesbian relationship? Are they setting good examples? Just saying. This has nothing to do with the accussed in ANY way. You just brought this question to mind. What is your standpoint there then?
let's see,
I am with you. NO ONE is thinking about the only people that really matter here. THE KIDS!
Everyone is just so worried about pointing fingers and saying this one did that and that one did this.
I am sorry to say that I have 3 children in the Marshall school system. But I am glad to say NONE of my children ever had any of these teachers. I am also sad to say that I am a former employee, just as you, of the district. This is all embarrassing to say the least.
Nice people or mean, bullies or sweeties, good teachers or bad - none of that matters. That's not what's at issue here. The school board needs to determine whether or not cheating occurred, who cheated, and who knew about it and didn't report it - those are the ONLY issue here.
Provided that they didn't shirk their duties or drink while on the job - doesn't matter if they go out drinking (although it doesn't really set a good example) and it doesn't matter if they use their summers off to go on vacation.
If you have an issue with the behavior of the accused or the accusers towards your child in the classroom - take it up with an administrator. There are principals, counselors, board members, and superintendents available for this very purpose. They can't all possibly be in collusion to make sure that a teacher isn't punished/reprinmanded/spoken to because of their "name." Don't use it to determine the guilt or innocence in this case.
johndOE3,
What did Carrie Hazell do to think that her head was on the chopping block? She should lose her job because she came forward with evidence? If I am missing something let me know. It just sounds like to me you are trying to pull a innocent person into the mud with the accused. So, what they use to be friends. So that makes her guilty? Sounds to me like she was at least smart enough to stay out of the cheating and come up with evidence that the others were trying to hide. I think that you need to reevaluate what you are saying. Sounds like you might be a family member of one of the accused trying to point the finger in the wrong direction. Don't put the heat where it is not needed.
Let's See,
You are right, drinking is not a crime. But truthfully I think it should be a crime to be a mean girl that grows up. The town of Marshall has just let her have too much power.
Going on vacation and drinking aren't crimes. What they did was................isn't the poilcy of the district to throw out a student if they get caught cheating? Should the teachers be different? No. That's all I am saying.
I would have gotten out of town if everyone was talking about me too, the point is, if they were responsible educators, they wouldn't be in this position.
Where has Carri Hazel been through all of this?
Did she get to make a deal in order to keep her job?
She was really good friends with the accused. She was with them babysitting their kids, attending family functions, scrap booking and hanging out.
Is it okay for her to keep a copy of this game for 2 or more years and wait to use it when her position was questioned? How can anyone be sure she wasn't using the game to coach her students for the years in question.
Was the thumb drive her way out of losing her job?
Where in the world is Carri Hazel hiding?
Donn Quick testified that he declined to recommend Hazell's contract not be renewed because she had fine performance reviews prior to the emergence of the cheating allegations and that some effort to help her improve her performance would be more appropriate than termination at this point.
Does anyone think that there credibility is taken down by their bullying tactics and how they look down upon anyone not of their social status? Money isn't everything you know.
Seriously, why do you think the schools lawyer didn't discuss they way these accussed teachers treated others?
The "leadership" is off to Warrensburg to dodge the bullets. She left the rest to deal with this.
Hello Marshall Bloggers... I know you all can read, but just incase you did not have a Marshall teacher to guide you, the first thing you see before you blog is "Please be respectful of others and try to stay on topic." Respect is a word that many of you have no idea of the definition. The last two nights have been horrible, the last few hours on the blog are horrible, and I'm horrible for letting myself read the blog, but worst for blogging myself. Please people, we live in Marshall, not Iraq... Let's stop our war. We're losing teachers, those being accused, those not. Soon we will be sending our kids out of Marshall for their education if we don't leave this District alone... My apologies to all involved in this mess. My apologies to Dr. Noah for having to walk into this mess, my apologies to the accused and the nonaccused. Your lives have been wrecked, welcome to Marshall MO..... Now, can we close this can of worms, leave people alone, quit judging, and everyone turn on some Joel Olsteen when you have a free minute...??????
Good leadership has only one alternative here. If they are certain that cheating occurred on their watch, they are ultimately responsible.
Leadership with any sense of personal responsibility would immediately tender their own resignations.
well, C-N-P you truly should apologize, b/c sorry to tell you i am NOT one of the teachers that is being accused. and i am tired, yes FED UP, of reading this hearsay day after day. i am simply stating facts that most people already have heard before. because after all, isn't that what this whole blog has been about? that is all you people have talked about, putting down these teachers, their lives outside of work (yes, that means PERSONAL lives), and not their crediblity as teachers.
if we are getting into personal lives, why does it keep getting brought up that these teachers have gone on vacation together? or as "let's see" says go out drinking in public? didn't realize those were crimes?
...and I have not personal vendetta aginst these teachers...
I think everyone needs to stop and think about the children. They are why people become teachers in the first place. Why has everyone not stopped to think about how they are feeling?
Remember that the burden of proof is on the accusers.
Based on Mr. Quick's "proof", it should be very easy to determine who is lying and who is not.
After Tuesday's testimony, maybe the accusers should be the one's on trial.....
--inappropriate use of examiners' manuals to prepare students for taking the MAP test,
--making or using unauthorized copies of the MAP test and
--lying about their role in the alleged security breach during the investigation.
"Look at it this way, the "accusers" are not on trail, their jobs on not on the line, so why stand up there and lie to jepardize themselves. The ones that lie are the ones with something to lose, i.e. the "accused". Back someone in a corner, and they are going to resort to any means to get out.
-- Posted by mtownresident on Thu, Jul 10, 2008, at 10:42 AM "
"I also think from some of the testimony last night, if they do terminate the three individuals, who have not admitted any wrong doing, they will have to terminate others who admitted, under oath, that they violated the same rules that these three are being charged with.
-- Posted by intrigued on Wed, Jul 9, 2008, at 9:37 AM"
CNP-
You said it all.............there is no way Fed Up isn't one of the accused.
MidMoCat,
It's good to note that most public institutions are required by law to have public hearings regarding these types of situations. While the public nature seems to make the institution look bad, it serves to keep backroom deals being made and having things swept under the rug.
Look at it this way, the "accusers" are not on trail, their jobs on not on the line, so why stand up there and lie to jepardize themselves. The ones that lie are the ones with something to lose, i.e. the "accused". Back someone in a corner, and they are going to resort to any means to get out.
Only in Marshall Missouri would this degenerate into such a public mess-why does this community continue to give itself such black eyes??
get a clue - no, I'm not saying that ANYone that testified is 'making it up'... however, in the absence of any sort of proof or evidence, it is basically a 'she said/she said' hearsay and all of the people - on both sides - have approximately the same credentials, so it becomes, again, hearsay...
The problem that the school board is going to face is the fact that under sworn testimony, at least 3 instances of deliberate non=compliance with federal ADA regs, at least 1 instance of deliberate non=comliance with state and district MAP Inservice requiredments, 3, not 1, instances of illegal possession of controlled test materials, and at least 3 instances of failure to follow due process -all of which were actions committed by and testified to NOT by the accused but by the accusERs, and by the Interim Superintendent.
The school board has observed all procedural and due process requirements as far as I can tell, but they are TRULY caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea at this point.
Well, maybe they can all go on vacation AGAIN while they wait to see if they still have jobs!Oh, wait, that isn't fair to Nathan, he didn't go with the girls.............sorry Nathan.
This whole thing is a big mess. Between this and the Dr. Gordon thing in Dec. I'm ready for the series finale of "As The School Turns"
Thats why they make the big bucks.
So what you are trying to say is that everyone that testified against the accused is making it up? Very doubtful.
Yes and no answers means they are telling the truth? Saying more means you are not? Only a attorney could come up with this statement.
It 'comes down to credibility' because there was almost NO actual evidence, except that in the possession of one of the accusers; there were very few procedural or due process safeguards; there was apparently NO actual inventory or official inspection of testing materials; there were apparently no searches, search warrants, or other physical evidence gathering - it was all pretty much hearsay...
There was, however, a court transcriptionist, and ALL of the witnesses were under oath - which should lead to some interesting conundrums for the school board...