Archived Speak Out comments July 2014-March 2017

Posted by webmaster on Wed, Mar 8, 2017, at 4:48 PM:

Here is the archive of Speak Out comments from the old website.

Replies (1552)

  • New Speak Out starts now!

    -- Posted by Rachel Knight on Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 1:14 PM
  • In my opinion: the Supreme Court & Politics Religion are going to strip every right we have left, if the American People don't wake up and do something??

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 4:22 PM
  • Everything takes so long! This is always the thing! A lot of damage can be done with all these procedures! This is what i say about Parliamentary Procedures,(sucks)! Can't these thing be streamlined to expedite things? Because the Law can be interpreted in all kinds of ways,and have been for a long time! With all the Political Science think tanks, its never ending.The Democratic Party is a bunch of wimps! They should play as dirty as the other Party!(Some Individuals) All these petty things, some do, should be done away with? Bush got away with a lot of ridiculous things and the Democrats sit on there hands ,and do nothing! Thats all they do to Obama!

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, Jul 2, 2014, at 12:31 PM
  • Upsedaisy, are you battening down the hatches? I see that Arthur is eyeing your part of the country.

    Otherwise, I hope you're well and are enjoying the summer! :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Thu, Jul 3, 2014, at 10:43 AM

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jul 3, 2014, at 10:43 PM
  • Well it's happened they announced today the hab center is closing too my understanding it's 2 years away. This town better get busy finding somehow to replace all those jobs.

    -- Posted by Gal66 on Wed, Jul 9, 2014, at 5:54 PM
  • Source, Gal66?

    -- Posted by Cheese on Wed, Jul 9, 2014, at 6:46 PM
  • Cheese they had a meeting of support staff and told them.

    They are down to around 85 clients 2 are moving out with-in the week 20 more with-in the next year the rest will be moved to Higginsville.

    -- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Jul 10, 2014, at 2:04 PM
  • Hey Demo, how about a story.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Thu, Jul 10, 2014, at 2:18 PM
  • Re hab center closing, follow this link to a news release from today's meeting of the Mental Health Commission. For even more info, follow the link within the news release for the full report on closing recommendations. And there is information about the new director for the Division of Developmental Disabilities in the second part of the news release.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Thu, Jul 10, 2014, at 10:12 PM
  • Looks like you guys have a "scoop"! Good work!

    This is another example of how "Speak Out" is an asset to the paper. No matter the forum, the story is in the MDN.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 1:31 AM
  • After reading the report it looks like recommendations not fact!

    Here's a couple of quote's from the report.

    "Each employee whose position is affected by the changes should be offered a position

    to continue employment."

    So that would help with the jobs but Marshall could still lose jobs and population.

    "As MHC buildings are vacated, minimal maintenance care should occur so the

    buildings are sustained for conveyance."

    Why not just demolish the buildings that are in such bad need of repair, keep the ones that are not then turn it over to the city for another park?

    The park uses the ball fields already and the gym building would make a great city owned community center.

    -- Posted by parkuser on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 8:35 AM
  • Good point, parkuser. The report is a set of recommendations, not a final decision. But after a quick glance at the news release, they look like pretty good recommendations to me.

    MHC, as it was, is already gone. As the news release notes, the number of residents is far below capacity. The facility was simply designed for a different age when different approaches to care of the developmentally disabled were prevalent. A century ago, people with all sorts of disabilities were congregated into institutions for their care. In recent decades, there has been a movement to provide the least restrictive environment that meets each individuals needs.

    When that approach was widely adopted, the traditional hab center was doomed.

    I think there probably still is need for institutional care, but it will be minimal compared to the past.

    So what to do with the MHC campus? The writing has been on the wall for some time. I hope city and state officials have given thought to the adaptive reuse of the site, how to market and develop it. You mentioned a new park. It would be a good one. It also looks like a potential school to me. Community colleges continue to grow and prosper.

    -- Posted by ewcrump on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 10:22 AM
  • ... or maybe a public-private partnership to expand MVC to a second cammpus? MHC could be an art institute or a music school affiliated with MVC.

    Or maybe an ag science research center? Why not capitalize on Saline County's greatest economic asset? Or combine the arts with ag -- ag science and country music, an exploration in the intertwinings of culture and economy?

    The hab center may be doomed, but out of doom comes opportunity.

    -- Posted by ewcrump on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 10:26 AM
  • And while I'm blathering on, this might be a great opportunity for the Saline County Historic Preservation Commission. It's getting experience with architectural surveys in town. How long has it been since the hab center was surveyed? Could it be an historic district? Do individual structures qualify for the National Register? Could historic preservation designations contribute to the redevelopment of the site?

    OK. I'll shut up now.

    -- Posted by ewcrump on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 10:27 AM
  • I applaud your optimism, Eric, but knowing this city all I see is another old Fitzgibbon Hospital coming out of this. Oh, if only they had approved the offer to make senior housing out of it. But, it looks much better now. Wise decision city leaders. Wise decision.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 3:12 PM
  • The state owns the land; at this point the city has absolutely nothing to do with how the land or buildings will be used.

    I seriously doubt that the state has given more than a passing thought as to the eventual use for the buildings.

    The recommendations will be followed, as the state pretty much dictated to the committee how they wanted things to turn out.

    This was just to give employees and the guardians of the people served time to get used to the idea.

    Thse who work at the Hab center have known the details for months now.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 6:44 PM
  • Yes we know who owns the land, Interested. We just talking down the line at some point and possible outcomes.

    It would be nice if the Democrat could do some sort of story on this????

    -- Posted by Cheese on Fri, Jul 11, 2014, at 7:05 PM
  • So has anyone noticed that our local politicians (city, county, state, or national) must not have much clout at the state level as I haven't heard or read a peep out of any of them about the economic effects of closing the Hab Center, and what they have done, tried to do, or are going to do, to save the jobs for the community.

    I fear that since no one who represents Saline County in the State Government is from Saline County (or anywhere close to Saline County on the national level), no one in the state government really cares if Marshall losses the economic impact of the Hab Center or not.

    We can thank all the folks that keep voting for right wing nut jobs for the gerrymandering by the Tea Partying Missouri Legislature for that little benefit.

    On a more positive note (sarcasm) and even closer to home, most of our local county politicians do certainly support tax increases on the population whenever possible in spite of their supposed Republican Party (no new taxes?) affiliation.

    BTW, (back to the original topic) I am still waiting for some enterprising graduate student in Sociology to do a masters thesis study on the impact of the Marshall State School and Hospital on the local community over the past 100 or so years that it has been operating. I would predict a very positive impact economically. I do wonder how many graduates of the old State School have become part of the heritage of Marshall and what impact that has had.

    I won't be holding my breath however, as it seems in the new century, no one likes bad news.

    Unless, of course, it helps a politician somewhere win, or lose, an election.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jul 13, 2014, at 10:11 AM
  • SmartDog:

    There are at least 4 or 5 stories that the Democrat News could get from this.

    They could do one where they just report the facts.

    Then, follow up with stories about how the Hab Center came to be, some of its history, etc.

    They could also do one where they examine the downgrading of the facility's effect on the people who work there and live there, plus what family members of the consumers think about all of the changes.

    They could also do one on the politics of the change, looking into the gerrymandering and discussing the demise with city and county officials.

    They would have a ton of stories to tell; but so far, the closing of the biggest longtime employer of Marshall in its history has not even merited a comment.

    It's almost not even news anymore.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Jul 14, 2014, at 8:52 AM
  • Parkuser your right they are recommendations but i would bet good money it happens.

    Hey MDC below are the names of the people that came up with the recommendations.

    How about an interview with the local people.

    I would really like to see what Mark Gooden,

    Connie Latimer and Bill Riggins have to say.

    Susan Bishop

    Donna Brown

    George Fizer

    Mark Gooden

    Bryon Jacques

    Bill Kolas

    Connie Latimer

    Mendy Lovercamp

    Bill Riggins

    Melissa Sutherland

    Cindy Tebbe

    Ron Wehmeyer

    April Maxwell

    Marlene VanHorn, Secretary

    -- Posted by Gal66 on Mon, Jul 14, 2014, at 12:51 PM
  • I agree with those who say the MHC situation is rich with news story possibilities, but to be fair, it takes some time to do the interviews and the research, and the small staff has many other stories it has to cover at the same time.

    -- Posted by ewcrump on Mon, Jul 14, 2014, at 3:15 PM
  • Eric, you make a good case for the need of someone like Kathy Fairchild to undertake the project.

    I believe it's too important an issue to be continually pushing it to the side while dealing with the crunch of daily requirements.

    It's interesting how you're keeping up with the activities around Marshall. Cool. :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Jul 14, 2014, at 5:22 PM
  • Sorry to change subject. I 'am confused about the so called "Right To Farm" amendment. What the hell is it to accomplish. For several centuries anyone has had a right to farm in Missouri. Why do we have to have a "Right To Farm" Amendment now to give those persons who want to farm the right to farm when they already have that right? Something smells here! There should be a town meeting with answers from both sides of the issue.

    -- Posted by izaak on Thu, Jul 24, 2014, at 7:33 PM
  • Izaak at the following link is one side of the issue as presented editorially by the Kansas City Star, not exactly a left wing paper, more centrist in my opinion.

    If you want to hear the other side of the issue you could just stop by any handy Tea Party headquarters and they will set you on the Right path to voting for the amendment.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jul 24, 2014, at 8:10 PM
  • Well, Izaak, as a part time farmer, I am as confused as you. Never have felt that I needed a constitutional amendment to farm, but then again I don't run a puppy mill.

    I agree with the editorial folks at the Star. This amendment is extremely vague. It will provide plenty of income to lawyers as they fight in court about what it really means.

    The thing is pretty dang short. You can read it for yourself here:

    One problem that I see is that it says "...subject to duly authorized powers, if any, confered by article IV of the Constitution of Missouri." If you look at Article IV of the Missouri Constitution, it deals with local governments and how they are formed. I see nothing that has anything to do with the State Department of Natural Resources or State Department of Agriculture anywhere in Article IV.

    Does this mean that only local governments can now regulate anything to do with agriculture? That sure sounds like a big old mess to me. Now every county has to take on the responsibilities formerly held by the State? Every city and county will have different rules?

    So, to me it looks like whoever crafted this amendment put a red herring in the pot to make folks think that the DNR and Mo Dept. of Ag. still have some authority to regulate things like farm chemicals and land use. If Article 6 powers are the only ones that can trump this amendment, then essentially no one at the State level can regulate anything to do with Agriculture?

    I think perhaps this Amendment is another fine example of 21st Century Political Theatre. Something else that is basically meaningless that politicians can all stand up in front of crowds and say "By golly, I support Missouri's farmers and their families."

    I mean, let's be honest here, who doesn't already support "the right of farmers and ranchers to engage in the farming and ranching practices?"

    I also wonder how this stacks up against the Soil and Water Conservation practices by the Natural Resources folks. Does passage of this mean that I no longer have to abide by SWCD regulations? Does it mean that they can no longer withhold cost share money for non-compliance with conservation practices?

    To me this reeks of another fine example of taking a campaign "glittering generality" and pumping it up with political bs to be used on the campaign trail.

    That would all be well and good, except for the fact that it is costing taxpayer dollars to print ballots and hold an election for basically nothing but a campaign slogan, which, once it passes will result in more tax dollars wasted on court battles to decide what it really says and means.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jul 25, 2014, at 12:50 PM
  • Actually, Smart Dog, it's Article VI, not IV, that is referenced. That could be why it doesn't make sense when you check it.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Fri, Jul 25, 2014, at 1:30 PM
  • Looking again, I see that your link is to Article VI, so your questions about what is really implied is right on track (stating Article IV was just a typo in your post). "Political theater" is exactly right. And you have to wonder about the money behind this proposal. Is it really the family farmer or the big corporate farms and political organizations such as Farm Bureau who have something to gain from its passage? They are using fear as the driving force, and we know that fear is a big motivating factor for most people. I attended the Farm Bureau dinner the other night and saw the fear-driven videos they have produced to get people to vote for it.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Fri, Jul 25, 2014, at 1:41 PM
  • This one will be a good test to see what percentage of voters have had a political lobotomy. I reckon that about 55% will utilize the sounds good feels good method without knowing a darn thing about the amendment beyond what it says in the title and it will pass.

    I also doubt that any of the promoters of this farce of an amendment will have the guts to support it at this forum. They know darn well that it won't stand up to critical review, and their argument will be torn to shreds.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 25, 2014, at 4:28 PM
  • Section 537.295 of the Missouri Revised Statutes in 2013 provided agriculture operations with protection against nuisance suits. You can read it here. (scroll down),_Amendment_1_(August_2014)

    So if there is already a clearly stated statutory Right To Farm law what is the real purpose of this apparent redundancy? Is it to allow China to buy up Missouri farm land and do whatever they please to we Americans? Is it to allow corporate agriculture to maim and kill Missouri citizens with impunity? This thing has every attribute of a pig in a poke! It is set up in a manner that the only way anyone will be able to know what it is about is to drag it through the courts at taxpayer expense. That is an obvious waste of tax payer money.

    What say you supporters of this unidentified thing?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Jul 25, 2014, at 5:20 PM
  • "Right To Farm"

    I do not know what that means.

    In time though it will be butchered,

    portioned by lawyer/butchers who will

    save the best cuts for the very rich.

    Is it Right To Farm as we do,

    putting pigs in place, not to move,

    stuffed with hormones, antibiotics,

    seasoned on the hoof?

    Who will save the hogs?

    Who will save us from the hogs?

    We who gorge on poisoned fattened flesh,

    until we waddle to market ourselves,

    set for slaughter by capitalist pigs.

    Is that what Right To Farm means?

    Please pass me a pork chop

    though I hunger more for truth.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jul 26, 2014, at 12:24 PM
  • Article IV.... Article VI...... dang Romans anyways....

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jul 27, 2014, at 9:11 AM
  • After reading your linked article, OKR, I have to agree with the thought that the primary reason for this ballot initiative was to get farmers to the polls for the November election.

    As Governor Nixon placed it on the August primary, I now see why our tea partying legislature was so ****** off about him doing that. Another tea-o-con electioneering game by the slowly fading far right wing.

    One thing about the right-wing nut-jobs, they leave no stone un-turned when looking for a leg up at election time, even if we have to waste money on glittering generality ballot initiatives and Jim Crow voter suppression laws.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jul 27, 2014, at 9:22 AM
  • Amen SD!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Jul 27, 2014, at 11:10 AM
  • Here's an article from the Columbia Tribune in which an MU agriculture professor lists ten reasons why right-to-farm amendments are not only unnecessary but counter-productive. Interesting perspective:

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Jul 28, 2014, at 2:40 PM
  • Excellent link Slater, thanks for contributing to the conversation. I wish that you would join in more frequently as you always have an interesting perspective.

    I also wish that someone, anyone, who supports this so called "Right To Farm" amendment would join the discussion. If supporters believe that there is any thing more than meretricious about the amendment they should promote it in rural forums such as this.

    As I had written earlier in this discussion I believe that no supporters will, because first of all it is so vague that they don't know what in the hell they would be trying to defend. I venture to say that they do not honestly have a clue to its potential scope. Secondly promoters of such as this stick to promotional formulas that are used to sell cars, or toothpaste, or unnecessary medicines to elderly folks. "Right To Farm", my patootie, "Right To Alarm" would be a better title for this amendment!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jul 28, 2014, at 9:41 PM
  • Hey Democrat-

    How about doing an in depth story on why Marshall's water is so often discolored!? It's ridiculous how often our water has a brownish color to it. Do a story on something that affects many people for once and not just rewrite a press release or do a Fair story about who bought a ham in which only about 12 people care about.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Tue, Jul 29, 2014, at 3:27 PM
    Response by Jesse Brown/Staff Writer:
    For reference, here are three stories covering Marshall's water discoloration:

    MMU at a loss about cause of water discoloration

    You asked, we answered: Marshall's water discoloration

    MMU considers options after drinking water violation

    There's a Marshall Municipal Utilities (MMU) story usually every two weeks. To avoid having to wait, MMU's phone number is 660-886-6966.

  • Speaking of the water in Marshall,it stinks , smells of sewer! The only way could drink it, was with a filter on the Faucet. What happend to it? I don't remember it tasting like that.I was raised there. And Okla,if there is an amendment to anything, we better watch it!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 29, 2014, at 10:04 PM
  • I'm no expert, but I think they have been flushing water lines in Marshall recently. That process, while necessary to maintain clean water flowing through the mains, usually results in some rust and sediment being stirred up in the lines.

    Hopefully it's temporary. As far as the water being stinky, I haven't notice that at my house, which is on one of our rural water districts, but supplied from Marshall. I find our water quality to be very good.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Jul 30, 2014, at 7:40 AM
  • Here's another page, which may or may not have appeared here previously, with plenty of useful information, definitions of terms, links, and detailed explanations:

    Digest this, my friends!

    -- Posted by Slater on Wed, Jul 30, 2014, at 1:50 PM
  • Jesse Brown ... those links you provided are from stories back in January and February ... last time I checked, that was six months ago. It would be nice if you would do a little work and find out why this problem is STILL going on SIX MONTHS later, because obviously myself and many others are still having issues with discolored water. This can't be good and can't be explained away with simply flushing fire hydrants, etc.

    Also ... to the editor ... when are the profiles on local election candidates going to be in the paper, as they always have been? We are six days from an election. I am curious about several of them and have questions ... such as ... who is Brandon Wolfe and what exactly does he mean on his signs around town that he will "bring Saline County into the modern world"??

    Maybe you guys should spend a little more time focusing on, ya know, your actual job instead of your facebook or instagram accounts, because this paper has gone downhill in a major way in the last year or two. Just sayin :)

    -- Posted by MediumRareSteakAndPotato on Wed, Jul 30, 2014, at 8:08 PM
  • That's funny and very telling all in one comment, Jesse Brown. We have to wait two weeks for your paper to do a story on why the water is still discolored? You're right, why should I wait two weeks for you to answer a question many citizens still have with a follow up when I could just call? In fact, why do I need to even pick up a copy of your paper or visit your online site when obviously you're not doing the job you're supposed to be doing to make a profit. Good answer. When one no longer needs your service, you're not long for this world. Thanks for pointing that out.

    I mean, why would anyone want to do a follow up story on a problem that's still ongoing when you could write a story about a goat getting a ribbon. Wise choice. And you wonder why your readership and ad revenue is tanking.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Thu, Jul 31, 2014, at 5:07 PM
  • Why would a person vote for an amendment! If it works well in the past,why Vote for the Amendment? It doesn't make sense! You can bet its not for the good of the Majority!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jul 31, 2014, at 8:43 PM
  • That's the way I see it, too, Jo. It's nothing more than a disguise to give the industrial agriculturists an open door to do as they please, regardless of the jeopardy to public health and the environment, which is in enough trouble already.

    Can you say...MONEY!?

    -- Posted by Slater on Fri, Aug 1, 2014, at 9:28 AM
  • I am kind of leaning against Amendment 1 as I have learned that we already have a decent amount of "right to farm laws" that protect farmers from certain frivolous lawsuits and other "urban assaults." (my term, 'urban assaults,' not the law)

    So, I have to wonder why we need this amendment. At first, as I said earlier, I thought it was just political theater to get farmers to the polls and for politicians to have something to talk about and support that sounded good.

    After more reading, I am beginning to wonder why big agribusiness is so willing to spend money to get folks to vote "yes." I reckon my cynical nature is to suspect that their must be some alternate motive as businesses generally don't spend money on anything unless they expect a payback of some sort.

    Also, the language is so vague that I don't believe it offers any sort of protection from the HSUS anyway, so I doubt that it would deter the radical vegans from their harassment campaign against animal agriculture.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 1, 2014, at 12:07 PM
  • Lets get some of these People out,its time! From top to bottom ! If Obama could have had some help with a Majority we may have been further along in the process! A President is only as good as the People backing him up! We have to get rid of the System that does not work! How about a third Party thats for the betterment of the People.Its seems that we the people have NO common sense about the Characters we Vote for, and most have been bad!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Aug 1, 2014, at 12:11 PM
  • I'm all for that, Jo, especially that farm controversy guy from district 150.

    Turn him out so he can go pretend to earn an honest living with his crooked pals.

    -- Posted by Slater on Sat, Aug 2, 2014, at 9:49 AM
  • The thought occurs to me that many of the second time around newly weds are so inspired by honeymoons at Niagara Falls that it ought to be called Viagra Falls. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 12, 2014, at 8:36 PM
  • I thought you were about to say they're inspired to take up barrel racing.

    -- Posted by Slater on Tue, Aug 12, 2014, at 9:18 PM
  • Funny Slater! I think it may not be only the second time arounders that have suicidal thoughts on their honeymoon.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Aug 12, 2014, at 9:58 PM
  • Tell me again how that was a "Sobriety Checkpoint" out on 65 highway recently as about 325 innocent folks were detained to make ZERO DWI arrests and a paltry few drug busts (3 or 4, I think).

    For all the folks out there that seem obsessed with our Constitutional Rights guaranteed by the Second Ammendment right now, how is it that these fishing expeditions that harass and detain innocent people going about their lives, where there is no evidence that a crime has been committed, are not considered a violation of the 4th Amendment?

    Is it like the Bible where we only want to use part of it to justify our societal views and ignore the rest? We love the 2nd Amendment, but don't care about the 4th?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Aug 14, 2014, at 11:46 AM
  • SD: Things will stay the same until we get some Leaders with integrity! Washington on down? I see Texas has took some action With Perry! Good start!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Aug 15, 2014, at 8:26 PM
  • SD,

    Probably the best way to stop the Nazi-inspired so called sobriety check stops would be to alert the ACLU. Or, wait until a Senator's son is busted.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Aug 19, 2014, at 10:50 PM
  • My wife took our granddaughter (Mom was sick) to enroll her in school it's her kindergarten year man was she excited she got to meet her teacher and everything.

    Every day since she has gotten up out of bed and asked do I go to school today man was she ready!

    The day finally gets here up out of bed eats a little breakfast to excited to eat much when it comes time to go Mom walks her to school.

    They walk into the class room teacher says O NO they didn't call you she's been moved to another school!

    My granddaughter sobs all the way home I don't get to go to school!

    They get to the new school late of course and my granddaughter says that's not my school, she goes inside very quiet not real excited about all this now thanks to the great Marshall Public School system!

    The only answer Mom got was the class was to full and we had to move her and someone forgot to call.

    How in the world do you forget to call?

    You now I have been a supporter of this school system for years I have never voted no on a school bond issue but why would I now vote yes on one and give these people millions of dollars to build a new school system when they are not even able to pick up a phone to call a parent to tell them sorry but we had to move your child to another school or not have the system set up so they know ahead of time how many kids they can have in a class!

    -- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Aug 21, 2014, at 7:27 AM
  • I am not a big enemy schools but I will say this MPS did not have the owl bus ready for my special needs child she has a hard problem getting along with her peers and cognitive delayed their excuse was to many students to keep tract sorry she slipped through. I have to say I have resided in bigger school districts like Independence Mo. Now this is small compared to that. and I never had a problem with Independence schools.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Aug 21, 2014, at 11:59 AM
  • Gal66 and Jason 1969 There was no reason that

    your children should be treated like that. MPS

    need to get their act together. Each Principal

    had plenty of time to go over the class listings and personally make that call. Busing has always been a mess and no reason for that.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Thu, Aug 21, 2014, at 7:25 PM
  • Still no bus pass but she got the ride the bus today however bus driver said if no bus pass no ride so I have a special needs kid that came home crying and I had to call bueker and let them know what the bus driver said

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Aug 21, 2014, at 10:24 PM
  • So who's more foolish, the teenagers who put Burts Beeswax on their eyelids or the newspaper that taught them how to do it?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Aug 23, 2014, at 10:12 AM
  • A letter I sent to the editor was published on Friday where my main complaint was children walking long distances to school, but there are two errors. One is that only the Middle School and High School have to pay the enrollment fee and I had said all of them do. And despite any mistake I made, there are over 50 registered sex offenders in Marshall. That research can be Googled. Addresses and Names given. People comment to me they walked so many miles to school in their day but this isn't the forties or fifties and it is dangerous to have girls 11 and 12 and a boy in second grade from SE (not Benton as I said by mistake)so far to school. That is crazy. The 11 and 12 year old were missing on Friday and their dad found them sitting on a curb on South Salt Pond. They were supposed to meet their dad at school and instead of calling home they started walking finally. He was in the back and they were in the front of the school. Someone helped them out with gas money just to keep them from anymore walking. The bus stop is right by their house, also. The school needs to change its' standards for miles kids have to walk to school for DANGER reasons, I think.

    -- Posted by cjcb on Sat, Aug 23, 2014, at 4:15 PM
  • Question for Marshall citizens in the know....regarding the property the school district owns on the corner of Watermill and Lincoln. Is the district renting the land back to the Geringers? There is a crop of soybeans planted on that property. Who owns the crop? Who will profit from the sale of the beans? Are taxes being paid? If the Geringers have been allowed to farm the property until a school is constructed and they aren't paying Marshall schools anything or paying taxes then they got one really slick deal from our school board.

    -- Posted by momaster on Tue, Aug 26, 2014, at 6:58 AM
  • From April 23 D-N article about board meeting:

    In his superintendent's report, Huff announced the sign announcing the construction of a new elementary school site on the corner of Lincoln Avenue and Watermill Road will be taken down and put in storage for later use. The board approved to rent that land, which consists of 12 acres, to John Samson for the amount of $2,000.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Tue, Aug 26, 2014, at 12:17 PM
  • Yesterday in the Saline County courtroom I was shoked at what kind of injustices were going on. Some people were there for offenses such as child molestation and rape. Some were there for child support, driving with no license and stealing. It shocked me how people with such vile crimes of rape and child molestation were given probation and 120 shock therapy while the people driving without a license and stealing and child support were given prison time, some up to twelve years. Myself I think it is time for new prosecutors and new judges. I know the law only allows certain punishment for certain crimes, but you're telling me that a violent crime like rape and child molestation deserves less time than stealin, child support or driving without a license. I don't care if these people have a history of crime or not, someone who rapes a child doesn't deserve any break. Children who suffer being raped never ever fully recover. Their childhood is ruined and their lives will never be the same. Everyone knows that sex offenders, especially child molesters, cannot be rehabilitated. Can someone explain this type of justice?

    -- Posted by pumpkinsgma on Wed, Sep 3, 2014, at 3:51 PM
  • I do not like this any better than you our special needs daughter was molested the person that did this was caught red handed found guilty given 11 years but was out in 120 days.

    pumpkinsgma the problem is not the prosecutors or judges it's the law the only way this gets changed is by contacting your state rep and sen.

    -- Posted by Gal66 on Thu, Sep 4, 2014, at 7:28 AM
  • I was sitting in front of one of the cases I wrote about and when you have prosecutors that are willing to make deals with lawyers on such a vile crime as molestation and rape, then maybe it is time for a new prosecutor. When they are willing to give the minimum to these animals instead of the maximum, then maybe they should be replaced. The judge seems to go along with whatever the prosecutor and the lawyers agree on. I know that it is a shame when people with drug addictions are sent to prison for 10 years or more and rapist get a 120 or probation. In my opinion at least someone with an addiction can change and become a productive member of society. Who would you rather live next door to, a child molester or someone who doesn't pay child support?

    -- Posted by pumpkinsgma on Fri, Sep 5, 2014, at 8:06 AM
  • It is hard to believe that come November I will have been posting here for seven years.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 1:09 AM
  • Know what else is hard to believe? Starting October 1st the Democrat News starts publishing only 3 days a week.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 5:55 PM
  • Cheese you surely do have your ear to the ground. You bring us a scoop every now, and then. Do you reckon that you could hustle up some news for us on-liners every Tuesday and Thursday, assuming those will be the no paper days?

    Thanks for the info. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 8:17 PM
  • The path to this point started when they lost Eric and hired a publisher and editor that don't live in Marshall and can't keep their fingers on what happens after hours in town. Their next biggest mistake came when they moved the Speak Out off the front page and effectively killed it. A lot of readers visited the site every day just to see what was being said.

    At this point, they might as well just kill off the print version altogether. It's a dinosaur on life support anyways. Concentrate all their efforts on the online version and make it Marshall's go to spot for local news 24/7. Not just Monday thru Friday 8-5. The world is 24/7 now and readers expect you to be there. They shouldn't and won't wait all weekend for an update because everybody went home. They'll find other sources and take their money along with it. Adapt or get run over.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 10:17 PM
  • OKR, I don't think I was too far behind you. I do not recall my precise entry date, but my first post was to John Q's commentary on the fit people at the fairgrounds filling up the spots designated for disabled spectators.

    That was followed by his rant about texting, to which I posted my thoughts (which coincided with his). That also got me started on some screwball with the username secret agent, or some such thing, when he disparaged people from Slater.

    You know me! I'm always up for a "warm" discussion. :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 11:25 PM
  • I nearly forgot why I came in here!


    Brightly casting its glow in these parts tonight! :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 11:29 PM
  • I was reading some criticism of the paper and felt like I wanted to explain why I think the paper is great.

    Ten years or so ago someone came to the paper and made it HIS paper and our letters to the editor, where all kinds of views were posted, was gone. Other changes made it more and more not a community newspaper. This last year things are really going well. I get the paper because I can copy out events and save them to pass around to people and also because tomorrow I will still have the paper to let a friend read or to share something in it with someone. Also there are so many more events covered all over the county. Everybody seems to be included and letters are back. They had tickets for the County Fair contests that my grandkids won some and their pictures have been in various events in the paper in town. The newspaper people seem to be everywhere there is something going on in Saline County. And the highlighting the blue color on important stuff makes it even better. The color has improved, also. I don't want to lose our paper. I am afraid it will close and then we have lost a great, great thing...a local newspaper that we can have to read at our home, in bed and participate in. The internet has killed a lot of papers. I don't want it to take this one.

    -- Posted by cjcb on Wed, Sep 10, 2014, at 11:54 PM
  • Cjcb newspapers of every size and distinction are under stress as our culture evolves. Thus whether we like it or not,in the long run we can do nothing about inevitable change. Thankfully we humans are remarkably adaptable, and in time accept change with rarely a look back by any excepting geriatrics who are stuck in ranting about "back in my day, and we liked it that way".

    The discussion, to be meaningful, must focus on in what ways may we shape inevitable change to assure that newspapers remain viable, and an important part of our culture. It seems to me that focusing on print news is somewhat like putting a new coat of paint on a barn that is falling down, instead of building a new barn that will serve current, and future needs.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Sep 13, 2014, at 12:07 PM
  • With all due respect, Oklahoma, it isn't just the geriatrics that want change I am not a geriatric person I don't think. Change does happen and it is uncomfortable as you point out. However, Not everyone has a computer, not everyone uses a computer or can afford the internet. I find the newspaper now, rather in the past, a useful tool to get information from. It lasts more than one day, I can get info and remember it by cutting things out of it and keep track of garage sales and the like.We could have torn Arrow Rock down, but we didn't. Some things have value past the old times. I feel our newspaper does. And I enjoy it as it keeps me up on what is going on. It is getting better all the time and I hope it will stay open as long as it can. I am in my fifties and haven't really , in the past, enjoyed the paper so much but now I really do. Best wishes to you.

    -- Posted by cjcb on Sun, Sep 14, 2014, at 3:26 AM
  • There is so much History about the Town of Marshall it's too bad they can't revive the Square back to the early 20 & 30,when there was still rollout awnings and Water fountains trees! Put in some Antique Stores! Bring back some Business. they could compete with Kmarts with the right entertainment If it took some Political arm twisting some Gambling,some shows,some Saturday nite Dancing put on. There is surely some hometown Bands. A nice 2 or 3 Nice places to eat. Sit up the Carnivals on Court Street again. Get the Teenage club back! there a lot of ways to revive Marshall! It wouldn't be easy,but not impossible. It would be a good thing for the Town. I would like to see it brought back!Maybe i'm old fashioned!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 14, 2014, at 10:25 PM
  • If the newspaper really wants to be meaningful, they need to reconsider what they cover. I've suggested directly to the editor on more than one occasion that they start a weekly column maybe entitled "What's Happening Around Town" which would address business issues. Such things as businesses that are coming to town, or opening, closing, expanding, or remodeling. We generally don't know these things until they actually happen. Some examples: they could address what is going on at the old Movie Gallery. An addition was just completed, but what is going to open there? What happened to Generations reopening? What's the deal with the former restaurant next door to the old Pizza Hut that was being remodeled but nothing has happened recently? When will the city do something about the old Lighthouse building or grocery store on Odell that is in such embarrassing shape?

    These are the types of things that would interest people and pique their interest in the community. Instead, we get page after page of goat/sheep/rabbit, etc. competition winners. Those are of interest to the families of the contestants, but not much interest to anyone else. If a newspaper wants to stay relevant, it needs to be relevant. The above suggestion wouldn't actually take a lot of effort - some calls to realtors and contractors, and checking building permits.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Tue, Sep 16, 2014, at 8:53 AM
  • Going back as far as over one hundred years ago there were community news reports in the local newspapers.

    The Marshall papers engaged in that practice. The community news was from every village, and every cluster of folks within Saline County that called themselves a community. It was written by stringers, often unpaid, and sent in to the paper by mail, or carried by someone coming to the county seat.

    It seems to me that this practice could easily, and economically be adapted to the online edition. It is likely that in each community across the county there is at least one person who knows who is sick, who is visiting, who went where. Some might call them busybody, others may say they just care about what is going on around them. Whatever, they provided news.

    This past practice increased the circulation of newspapers. It may be able to increase online circulation today. Folks that have moved away from Malta Bend, Elmwood, Slater and even across the county line in Houstonia, would love to hear what is going on with the folks back home, and the communities they grew up in. There is no current online source that does that effectively. Such gatherings of information could be delivered by e mail, and efficiently posted directly to the online edition.

    It likely would have the effect of increasing on line subscriptions among former Saline County, and Marshall residents. Who doesn't occasionally get wistful about the old days, and old ways in today's mad, mad, world?

    Just a proactive thought.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 11:44 AM
  • At the following link is an example from bygone days that could easily be adapted for modern application.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 11:58 AM
  • I'm all for an appearance of the face of a kindlier, and friendlier rural America, even if it is only an illusion. I believe that many folks crave something like that, are disconcerted by the nothing but today's bad stuff provided by television news, local and national. I think many of us are sick of the display of only one side of life today. Such folk could lower their blood pressure,and decompress after work with the new, kindlier, friendlier MDN. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 12:18 PM
  • Here is another thought regarding adaptation of local newspapers to keep pace with societal change by taking advantage of technical progress.

    The millennial generation has largely forsaken print news. However there are several studies that indicate they do follow the news online. Obviously if local newspapers do not find a way to bring them back into the fold they are doomed when the current readership dies off.

    Assuming that Marshall high school still has a journalism class, and perhaps that there are also such classes at Slater, and Sweet Springs high schools, why couldn't there be an hands on interaction between them, and the MDN? It could be of mutual benefit.

    The students could prepare news just as they likely now do excepting that it be forwarded electronically to the MDN for transposition to the online MDN. It could help bring younger folk into the MDN fold, establish or at least reinforce a pattern, or habit of reading the MDN. Who knows, but that the next MDN ace reporter could arise from the interaction.

    These ideas I have submitted are all based on the premise that it is economical and efficient to prepare online news, compared to print journalism.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 1:05 PM
  • One last thought on this subject before some local snark tells me (as has often happened) to stay the hell out of the Marshall scene, and tend to Oklahoma matters; I fervently wish that at least the original Speak Out would once again be made openly available without a search at the onscreen display of the online edition. With that I think that positive proactive discussions such as the current one would have greater participation, and eminently important increased readership.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Sep 17, 2014, at 1:14 PM
  • Dave Phillips, the publisher, said he encourages the readers to give him feedback and suggestions, but the article he wrote explaining the upcoming changes has the comments turned off. Pretty much sums up this paper's problems in a nutshell.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Thu, Sep 18, 2014, at 10:09 PM
    Response by Dave Phillips, publisher:
    My email,, is posted at the end of the story announcing our changes. I find email conversations more productive than anonymous forum postings and have personally responded to everyone who has made suggestions that way.
  • And, of course, it's all about what's best for you, not the readers, obviously.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Mon, Sep 22, 2014, at 6:15 PM
  • To the people posting flyers around town about a "Protest" in Carrollton. Please don't bring your problems to our town. If you have a problem with your police force then deal with it. Don't paint our officers with that same brush.

    -- Posted by Selmac8 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 3:33 AM
  • You know I have been reading all the comments on this page today. It seems to me that instead of discussing important things that need to be addressed and trying to find a way to change them, people are more interested in the paper being published only three times a week. No wonder this world is in the shape it's in when people won't address important issues but will argue over a stupid paper. SAD

    -- Posted by pumpkinsgma on Wed, Oct 8, 2014, at 9:45 AM
  • Wow, I couldn't get into the detail of Monkey's obit because you have to be a subscriber. I understand that papers are under financial stress, so I guess I just feel disappointed. But obits can be found other places as well as those ads that always go with them that also help pay the bills. Makes me want to listen to KMZU :-)

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sat, Nov 8, 2014, at 9:07 AM
  • RT this is a link that you may find interesting. Were you a friend of Monkeys?!/TributeWall

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Nov 8, 2014, at 3:55 PM
  • Thanks OKR. I knew Monkey, but he was several years younger. He was somewhat of a hero figure for many of us in my age bracket, kind of a rebel/sports hero figure. It was an era of larger than life characters the like of which will never be seen again.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Sun, Nov 9, 2014, at 4:46 PM
  • You are welcome RT. By the way I thought you were a bit younger than me, but I see that is not so. I was very close with Monkey. I will share your comment with his sons. I know they will appreciate that.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sun, Nov 9, 2014, at 6:47 PM
  • As I read the article that I linked below, it called to mind the threat to common education by Common Core, and all the other efforts to turn education into a cookie cutter, or assembly line process. I know that there are good teachers within the Marshall school system who are saddened, and haunted by the fact that their hands are, or will be tied by this seemingly inexorable march toward absolute conformity; a sick conformity that not only forbids the creativity of every teacher, but extinguishes the creativity of the students.

    I just want to say thank you to all those teachers who have used their whole mind to do their best to bring out the best in each of their students. I hope that all of you who have read what I said will also read the commentary at the provided link which is by a retiring teacher. It is cogent, compassionate, and a call to arms.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 11, 2014, at 4:20 PM
  • When I drove by Marshall Cinema today, both marquees said "Closed." Not looking good - did I miss a story at an earlier time? Or is this news?

    -- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Mon, Nov 17, 2014, at 8:37 PM
  • "The Last Picture Show" Kathy? You didn't happen to see the ghost of Ben Johnson as 'Sam the Lion' walking east on a deserted North Street? :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Nov 18, 2014, at 11:10 PM
  • Kathy, I drove by last night and the lights were on, the marquees all had movies listed.

    I had seen the "Closed" as well, but it appears it was only temporary.

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Wed, Nov 19, 2014, at 8:12 AM
  • Anyone have any idea why the Marshall Board of Education is looking at the Marshall Hab Center property?

    -- Posted by momaster on Thu, Nov 20, 2014, at 7:23 PM
  • I suppose it is natural that we all gripe about winter, whether back home up there in Marshall, or down here in Oklahoma.

    Sometimes the old "it could be worse" consideration helps us to refocus in a more positive light. For instance, We could be living through winter in Alaska. It is so brutally cold that many of the folks up there just stay drunk all winter. Now I know that there are some folks that condemn that as a moral failure on the part of Alaskans, but that is not necessarily true. In fact there is real evidence that it is just a natural thing to do.

    There is a specie of beautiful bird, the Bohemian waxwing sharing that environment. They are berry eaters. As it begins to get cold and a frost hits the fruit of their favorite, the mountain ash berry tree, the berries ferment. The birds begin to binge. Though you can keep a drunken Alaskan off his snowmobile, you can not keep a drunken bird from flying.

    All hell breaks loose. Due to the fact that they naturally have an inordinately enlarged liver, of a size that humans have to drink for a lifetime to match, they can consume copious quantities. They smash into windows, they drop from the sky, drinking themselves almost to death.

    Thus the good folk of Alaska, being particularly sensitive to shared sensibilities with their Bohemian buddies have set up little drunk tanks so that they may sleep it off and sober up. Those requiring more extensive help are transferred to avian rehab.

    You may read the source for this story and more details at the following link.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 21, 2014, at 12:21 PM
  • OKR, that is interesting. :) Thank you for sharing. Gave me a giggle that I needed this blustery day.

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Fri, Nov 21, 2014, at 1:54 PM
  • ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Nov 21, 2014, at 7:11 PM


    This is exactly why Mitt Romney said that 40 something % of the people are too dependent on the government. They have learned to work the system.

    A Ford Dealer's Report - From Tom Selkis' (Latham Ford) Facebook - True story yesterday at the dealership.

    "I'll try to make this as short and to the point as I can.

    One of my salesmen here had a woman in his office yesterday wanting to lease a brand new Focus.

    As he was reviewing her credit application with her he noticed she was on social security disability.

    He said to her you don't look like you're disabled and unable to work.

    She said well I'm really not. I could work if I wanted to, but I make more now than I did when I was working and got hurt (non-disabling injury).

    She said the gov't sends her $1500.00 a month in 1 check. And she gets $700.00 a month on an EBT card (food stamps), and $800.00 a month for rent. Oh yeah, and 250 minutes free on her phone. That is just south of $3500.00 a month. When she was working, she was taking home about $330.00 per week.

    Do the math and then ask yourself why the hell should she go back to work.

    If you multiply that by millions of people, you start to realize the scope of the problem we face as a country.

    Once the socialists have 51% of the population in that same scenario, we are finished.

    The question is when do we cross that threshold if we haven't already, and there are not enough people working to pay enough taxes to support the non-working people? Riots?? Be prepared to protect your homes.

    She didn't lease the Focus here because the dealer down the road beat our deal by $10.00/month.

    Glad to know she is so frugal with her hard earned money."

    -- Posted by tommob on Fri, Dec 5, 2014, at 10:39 AM
  • What you have there, tommob, is an almost three year old chain e-mail story put out right before the 2012 elections in response to Romneys "47% of people are on welfare" gaffe.

    Old news at minimum, possibly fiction.

    Definitely some illogical projection going on in the story as it is not a valid argument to take one individual example (yep, the subject was a dead beat if the story was true) and project that out onto "millions of people" or 51% of the population.

    So, a car salesman outted a disability cheat. Why does he not call up the local social security office and narc her out? They do actually attempt to uncover fraud, so you would think such a concerned citizen would help get this stopped. Instead the story was crafted to poke liberal politics in the eye.

    Don't see anything in the story, or it's history on the web, which makes me believe it is anything but pure right wing propaganda.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Dec 5, 2014, at 1:05 PM
  • Hey, there is truth to the story because my cousin living in Sedalia has the same deal except

    she gets more because she has 2 kids. Even though

    it is a good deal she plans to get off as soon as

    she can.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Fri, Dec 5, 2014, at 5:42 PM
  • Its beginning to look and snot like Christmas

    Everywhere noses blow.

    It flies out five or ten glistening once again

    with red noses and their veins aglow

    Its beginning to sound a lot like Christmas

    Achoos! in every store,

    But the saddest sight to see is sick you or me.

    Puking at our own front door.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Dec 15, 2014, at 9:45 PM
  • Well, it sure seems that few pass by this page nowadays, but I'll still say Happy Holidays to everyone!

    Upsedaisy, if you look in, give us a wave! :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Dec 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM
  • Winter's Friends

    Come all, and gather around, pretend for a moment we are snowbound.

    Gather thoughts, and people too, all those who have meant a lot to you.

    In this fashion may those return, who have gone, for whom you yearn.

    Staring into that crackling fire those who left may come back around.

    Memories linger, intertwining beautiful moments those old, and new.

    The warmth that radiates comes from the heart, oh such fires that burn.

    (I wanted to share my seasonal poem for friends and family with my forum friends. Peace and joy to each of you.)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Dec 24, 2014, at 12:33 AM
  • Our water quality is ****.

    Not only do They say it's ****, they say it Will give you kidney and liver problems.

    Don't QQ when it gives you Cancer.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Wed, Dec 24, 2014, at 6:02 AM
  • eieio: Every time i go for a visit to Marshall,we have to take our own water! Or a filter on the faucet. It looks like they would get sued! It even stinks!When i grew up in Marshall,(many years ago)It tasted good,what happened?

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Dec 25, 2014, at 12:48 PM
  • Why don't the people of Marshall demand better quality from the water plant? That has to be dangerous? But i do think there is people there that don't even notice the rank smell & taste,got use to it,i guess!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Dec 25, 2014, at 8:43 PM
  • Hey News! The same in return. I trust your holidays are going well.

    And yours, too, Jo! Good to see you again.

    I'm always feeling a little let down after Christmas passes, perhaps because of the anticipation beforehand. So, today I'm a bit like the cigar store Indian.

    -- Posted by Slater on Fri, Dec 26, 2014, at 5:09 PM
  • Hey Slater:I kinda feel the same way on Holidays, even with the little ones running around! The grandbabies keep you on your toes. How is the State of Texas? I get tired of seeing that lying *** Governor on T.V.,do you? Hope you're 2015 goes well for you and yours. You haven't been posting as much,good to hear from you!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Dec 26, 2014, at 9:55 PM
  • Hey Jo!

    Well, the state of texas is in a terrible state. I thought our former governor was a nut job, but this new one is even worse! The only thing texas has going for itself is the climate, and that's only good in the lower half.

    No, I'm not posting much anymore. I have nothing to say that anyone wants to hear anyway. :)

    I figure next MDN fiscal year this section will be dropped. It's hard to believe I've been in here for nearly eight years, and how lively those days were!

    I'm with you about the water issue. I recall seeing comments about the low quality a year or two ago, maybe even further back. I'd say removing the fluoride would make some difference in the taste, plus improve the overall well-being of the residents.

    Well, just a few more days and the cowboys around here will be unholstering their sidearms and shooting holes in the sky. Too bad the bullets don't return to where they started.

    Take care, my friend, and I'll be seing you!

    -- Posted by Slater on Sat, Dec 27, 2014, at 12:47 PM
  • Your Opinions means as much as anyone else's,Slater,keep um coming!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Dec 27, 2014, at 1:44 PM
  • Salter,The Fluoride is the only thing keeping it from killing sooner!LOL nO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT is the only way to go. But i forgot the G.O.P. don't believe in Science! I believe they are probably running the Town? So watch out Marshall!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Dec 27, 2014, at 9:00 PM
  • Well, guys, I was just reflecting on the "good old days" when we had plenty of lively "discussion" in here. Maybe it'll happen again, since we're coming up on another period of campaigning. This would be a watershed moment in American politics if Hillary is successful. Whenever I think about her, I always recall the image of her looking so disheartened while attending the funeral of that policeman killed in a traffic accident while working her motorcade in Dallas. I think of that photo as a candid glimpse revealing her compassion and concern for people.

    We live in an ugly time, where greed and self-centeredness prevail. It's very discouraging that our elected "officials" no longer intend to strike a reasonable balance for the good of the country. It'll be our downfall, because the voters are no better than those they put into the chairs. There aren't enough of us diehards left to make any difference.

    Jo, I'll always remember our first meeting in here, when you were trying to recall the location of a limestone rock formation which has a lot of names carved into it, and we've continued from there, the next stop being Humphrey's. Some would call me a sentimental fool, but it's all those good memories that keep me sane in this crazy world we inhabit.

    Although I grew up in Slater, the place universally scorned by the residents of our county seat, I've had the pleasure of sharing thoughths with a few kindred spirits who have reminded me that tolerance and understanding can be found anywhere you look.

    So, guys, thanks for extending the hand of friendship. :)

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Dec 29, 2014, at 11:19 AM
  • Someone please help me understand why a paper in a town of 12k people who only publishes a print version 3 days a week can't drum up more than 1or 2 new stories a day? Half the time those 1 or 2 stories are press releases already written. Don't tell about staff excuses. A staff of one could do what's being done now.

    Is there nothing worth writing about in this town or is nothing being written about that is going on in this town? You could visit this site once a week and still not miss anything. I hope it improves, thought it would with a new editor, but times are short if this keeps up.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Tue, Dec 30, 2014, at 4:37 PM
  • Cheese, hasn't it been said, "If you don't like something, DO something about it"? (emphasis mine)

    It seems to me that whining is not doing.

    And that's all I'll say.

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Wed, Dec 31, 2014, at 8:22 AM
  • Sadly, Cheese, the Marshall Democrat News exists today for one purpose only; to make money for the Rust family.

    Small dailies exist today to sell ads to local business and collect subscription revenue. The staff must be kept small, thereby reducing the ability to write in-depth stories or produce enough copy to make for more than 5 minutes of reading.

    I imagine that being responsible for profit and loss at a small daily in the 21st century is a difficult job.

    Just keep in mind that our Marshall paper does not exist to keep local politicians honest, inform the public, or provide a service to local citizens. It exists to make a profit for the owners. If it drifts into the red I am sure they would shut it down or sell it off.

    It is best for one to not forget that we live in a capitalist economy, driven at every turn by profit and loss. The 1%'ers and their lackey politicians tell us constantly this is what is best. I'm not saying it isn't, just that one must keep in mind that in the 21st century, money rules every single thing, including local newspapers.

    I am fairly sure that the staff does the best job possible with the resources at hand.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Dec 31, 2014, at 9:01 AM
  • I personally think the two Party system is not working ,we need more choices! Even then it may not work well I do think we need term limits on all but the President.If we have one that works for the people,and makes life better for everyone( like Roosevelt), leave it alone!This Country is bought and paid for by the rich! Get the Money out of it? I don't hate the Country, i hate the the way its run! How is a Country going to work if (NO ONE) IS PROSECUTED for wrongdoing ! What happened to this too big to fail thing? Has any been split up?NO

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jan 1, 2015, at 1:48 PM
  • Well, I will no longer support either of the 2 larger restaurants that offer drive thru service.

    My orders were terribly messed up when I got home after the last drive thru I did at each place.

    Then, when I try to order inside, I see the drive thru orders getting priority while people in the lobbies stand around awaiting their orders.

    In the future, I will be eating at establishments that try to do one thing well, instead of multiple things poorly.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Jan 2, 2015, at 10:05 AM
  • Our school system has at least one teacher that says no to reading the Bible during free time.

    -- Posted by parkuser on Tue, Jan 6, 2015, at 10:39 AM
  • I have no idea what went on there, but I find it interesting that the parents apparently called the tv station before calling the school about this incident.

    Sure would be interesting to hear the teachers side of the story before jumping to conclusions.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Jan 6, 2015, at 12:38 PM
  • Saw a truck with a sticker on the back window that said "retired firefighter" parked in the fire lane at Wal-mart. Great example.

    -- Posted by Selmac8 on Wed, Jan 7, 2015, at 5:42 AM
  • Poor governor Nixon, he is being assailed from the right, and the left. Maybe he is in the rational center. That is a tough place to be in these days of radical extremist politics.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Jan 7, 2015, at 7:09 PM
  • State Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal has said many things recently.

    -- Posted by World Traveler on Thu, Jan 8, 2015, at 4:20 PM
  • So if a student is removed from class setting for discplinary reasons they get rewarded by being picked up at their house and dropped off at their house. They are going to the in school class rooms at Bueker. However my special needs child has to walk up to the end of the circle and she is at risk for being bullied. All because the liabilities a bus will have going down the circle something is not right here. MPS schools double standard.

    -- Posted by Jason1969 on Thu, Jan 8, 2015, at 9:45 PM
  • "More Than Half of American School Children Now Live In Poverty"

    Marshall, all of America feels your pain.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Jan 17, 2015, at 5:38 PM
  • "Richest one percent to own more than half the world's wealth by 2016." Why are we so passive about that?

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jan 19, 2015, at 8:59 AM
  • OKR for myself I don't care what anyone else has it's none of my business.

    How much does a person have to own to be in the top 1% of the world?

    -- Posted by parkuser on Mon, Jan 19, 2015, at 12:09 PM
  • Plug in your numbers OKR or anyone else you may be surprised how high up that list you are.

    -- Posted by parkuser on Mon, Jan 19, 2015, at 12:23 PM
  • See response to Park User on political Speak Out.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Mon, Jan 19, 2015, at 4:33 PM
  • "And frankly if there is a big spill the land owners would walk away with millions in settlement money so I'm sure they would be just fine in the end!"-os17

    You miss the point on this one os17, ultimately it is not about the land owners it is about the land itself. We can not continue to maintain our cavalier attitude regarding natural resources. The last I heard we are not making anymore land, nor water.

    If we are not careful we are going to make China angry at us! Now that the Republican government of Missouri has passed laws that allow the Chinese to come gobble up all the Missouri land they want to (under the guise of freedom to farm) it may become a moot point to Missouri citizens.

    Here we are, foreign countries buying up Missouri land, foreign governments (Canada) running roughshod through Missouri farmers' land, intruders from other states such as the Koch brothers putting Missouri soil and water at risk merely to make themselves unnecessarily richer. Seems to me like the Republican scheme deviously entitled "Right To Farm" should have been entitled Right To Be Run Over By Foreign Interests"!

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jan 22, 2015, at 11:36 AM
  • Sorry, meant that last comment about foreign intervention in Missouri freedoms for the politics forum. I have flagged it for removal from this forum.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Jan 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM
  • Okla: I wonder if People think about our Land,our Water,all our resources? Personally i think most Americans just fixate on Money! And i was thinking exxon Pipeline will come right across Oklahoma! I hate to think what our Grandchildren will have left? One day, the Government will have to do something about the super rich,or turn the Country over to them ! Unless the People do something, and i have lost faith in that happening! People us to know when their being stepped on!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Jan 23, 2015, at 5:51 AM
  • Hey everyone!! PC crashed and its taken awhile to come back. I'm one of Mutts 48% Americans that's on the take, I guess. I'M SURE A LOT OF YOU ARE IN THE SAME BOAT? SOCIAL SECURITY ALLOWS A VERY lavish life style in your old age. I would love to see the Politicians take an extended Vacation to the Middle East especially Bush & Chaney! Boehner and all his follower's should be arrested for un-American activity's, going over the Presidents head! Sorry, this should have been posted on the Political Forum, but what the hell?

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Mar 3, 2015, at 3:36 PM
  • And Okla glad you still have your Dukes up on this Sickness crap! I'm with you 100% my friend!! We're all at this point in our lives, we have thing wearing out!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Mar 3, 2015, at 3:48 PM
  • Bfg, you are right it is not currently available. There will probably be an explanation the next actual publishing day.

    Back at you Jo; hang tough is our only practical alternative. :)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Mar 3, 2015, at 11:40 PM
  • It could also be a tightening of the budget Bfg. State News, and Weird News which accompanied it are not free. Just speculation on my part as an explanation has not appeared.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Wed, Mar 4, 2015, at 10:48 PM
    Response by Dave Phillips, Publisher:
    Oklahoma reader has it right. Our mission is to provide the local news our readers can find nowhere else. When we changed our print schedule to three days per week, we were able to drop our association with AP, giving us an expense saving. It also gives us the higher ratio of pure local news; important to our readers and advertisers. Besides...everybody knows where to get AP news if they want it.
  • Thanks Dave. It is a tough time for newspapers, large, and small.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, Mar 5, 2015, at 6:34 PM
  • I rarely disagree with you Bfg, but I do on this one. Firstly everyone knows that every little newspaper is in trouble, this one is no exception. I do not believe that you can develop a solid case against that statement.

    You are allowed to post here what goes on in Ferguson, and your opinion of it.

    Finally if they were being deceptive in their rational argument that the reason for dropping state news was to cut costs, why did they also drop "News of The Weird? Are you thinking that maybe we would also see something that should be hidden from Marshall folk? I'd be interested in hearing what that might be. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Mar 6, 2015, at 3:07 AM
  • BFG, as you are so fond of asking proof from others, I will ask you to do the same. Do you have any hard evidence of these "den mothers" pressuring the paper?

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Fri, Mar 6, 2015, at 8:26 AM
  • BFG you are so far off on this!

    Chris Allen has been called out so many times over the years it's not even funny and if you think a few parents or fans can have any effect on how or what he writes you are flat wrong!!!!!

    -- Posted by parkuser on Mon, Mar 9, 2015, at 6:18 AM
  • BFG,

    may I direct your attention to:

    We lost both games right? Sounds like a dud to me. People are so sensitive.

    -- Posted by huh? on Fri, Feb 27, 2015, at 4:07 PM

    Chris - your headline was quite a slap in the face to the seniors who played their hearts out. I think an apology is in order. I was there and the boys game was exciting - not a dud! It just had a unfortunate ending for all of us fans but especially for the boys who were playing their last game on their MHS court. And to add further insult to the seniors, as well as their parents - Senior Night was not even recognized except by your headline word - DUD.

    -- Posted by sirwalter on Thu, Feb 26, 2015, at 10:48 PM

    Response by Chris Allen/Sports editor:

    I stand by both the headline and the story.

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Mon, Mar 9, 2015, at 8:11 AM
  • And I have to ask, BFG, what do 3 negative comments on a sports story have anything to do with the AP (Associated Press) "columns" that were removed?

    -- Posted by My_Two_Cents on Mon, Mar 9, 2015, at 8:17 AM
  • Chris will never change. He wrote bad articles

    when my granddaughter was in sports at MHS a few

    years ago. I was ashamed to cut them out for her

    scrapbook. He could be a good writer if he wanted to be. Maybe he sould write on politics .

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Mon, Mar 9, 2015, at 3:36 PM
  • I, too, miss the AP linked stories that used to appear on the left lower part of the main web page. This newspaper's parent newspaper at appears to have removed the AP links as well. Perhaps it is a matter of saving money.

    -- Posted by former editor on Thu, Mar 12, 2015, at 9:36 AM
  • "So if you read Rat, the only thing I really complain about is how nobody on here ever backs up their tough talk with actions."-os17

    Not true in my case os17, and perhaps not in the case of others who post here.

    Starting in the 1960s I publically participated in various ways of protesting the Viet Nam War, and the denial of civil rights. I have continued to do so over the years as other resistance movements arose.

    For instance I participated in the Iraq antiwar marches here in Oklahoma City, miniscule as they were in this bastion of mindless conservatism. I wrote poetry, recited it locally, and posted it on various antiwar web sites such as "Voices Against War"

    I continue to write poetry which has been posted on well known international web sites. That includes the Christmas Day feature item on one such progressive site Christmas 2012, and again Christmas Day 2013. I was too ill this past Christmas to shoot for three years in a row. Hopefully I will be in a position to try again 2015.

    As I have many relatives up there who are good solid relatively (to me) conservative folk who likely would be stained by my extreme liberalism, I don't go public on this paper. We all know how small towns are at casting blame. I love them and would not ever want them to suffer the slightest from my "excesses".

    So, os17 I think you are barking up the wrong tree with your repeated refrain that none of us do anything. Such is nothing more than speculation.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Mar 13, 2015, at 1:47 PM
  • I mistakenly posted the previous comment here. It was intended for the politics forum. I have requested the Web Master delete it from this forum where it lacks context. Mea culpa.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Fri, Mar 13, 2015, at 1:57 PM
  • Question: Does anyone know if Jim Merchant is still around, living in Marshall? This is not the Forum, i know. So thanks!

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Mar 16, 2015, at 1:54 PM
  • I am not sure which Jim Merchant you are referring to. Older Jim who lived on Lincoln Street has been gone a few years. His son, also named Jim lives near the Fairville Junction north of Marshall. Hope this helps.

    -- Posted by Gray hair on Mon, Mar 16, 2015, at 5:06 PM
  • Thank you gray hair! Its (old) Jim that worked at the old Theater on North Street, in the 40s.I think he was a Deputy Police Officer too! When Bill French was Chief. Thanks old timer! He and his family was a dear friend of my family on English St. (Thinking of you old friend)!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Mar 16, 2015, at 10:00 PM
  • Okla: o.c.Bruner was the place for late nite Ribs,drinking, Dancing, Entertainment! He was a good friend of my dads.Cooked a lot of Raccoons for him! This Racial thing began in about 1965,i think. One of,what I thought was a friend,(black)stabbed me with a pocket Knife, after years of friendship! I think a lot of this racial thing went with the flow, at the time. Lucky he didn't walk around me with the Knife! Later he Apologized. We had some good times!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Mar 26, 2015, at 5:13 PM
  • Heard there has been a big shakeup at I-70 community hospital. That the CEO has been relieved of her duties anyone else know anything.

    -- Posted by froom on Tue, Mar 31, 2015, at 10:16 AM
  • It appears that the flaw of the hospital from the get go has been reliance on road kill. It may always be a troubled facility.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Mar 31, 2015, at 1:11 PM
  • Man, I am impressed with the volume of news being cranked out by the new MDN staff. Nice job.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Apr 1, 2015, at 2:23 PM
  • Okla: It looks like these Storms are getting a little close to your area, already? Hope you don't have any trouble this Year! Hope your health is good!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Apr 3, 2015, at 10:52 PM
  • Tornados about ten miles away. Staying ahead of the game on my health issues. Reckon I'm doin' good Jo. I hope the same for you.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 4, 2015, at 12:37 AM
  • Changes to the online paper, they do keep coming. I sometimes wonder as to the impetus, and the result.

    Take this recent change; what has been the section dealing with most read stories, and most discussed stories has morphed into something else that changes the focus, and use of the categorization.

    It is now "Top Stories-Sponsored by ConAgraFoods". The new categories are "Most Read Yesterday" and "Top Stories Last Week". There are a couple of headlines, or so under each category.

    The prior format allowed we the readers to see what stories had not only caught the eye of the reader, but also featured what we had to say about those stories. The multiple points of view were educational. The give, and take at times went on for weeks regarding hot button issues, until the subject was exhausted.

    Now, under the new format any story that is controversial will in most cases disappear after a day, or two. No controversy, no heat applied to any individual, nor any entity by the readership should bring relief to politicians, and businesses. I can almost hear a collective whew, emanating from those quarters.

    There will be others pleased by the change; including all those who like to pick up the paper with their Post Toasties, and crunch them simultaneously, with no danger of indigestion from either.

    Oh yes, I also suppose that I may be the only one who is wondering if "Top Stories-Sponsored by ConAgraFoods" infers ConAgra's approval and influence of a supposedly independent newspaper. Will ConAgra sponsor a forum that includes news critical of ConAgra, not that I have seen any articles critical of ConAgra for a while. ;)

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Sat, Apr 18, 2015, at 2:30 PM
  • I've always decided on my own what's newsworthy and don't need suggestions. That's too much like Amazon showing you stuff that other people liked. So what?

    The Columbia Tribune has a section it calls Top Missouri Stories, which is fine if you like reading about crime or personal mishaps. Not sure why these subjects should receive top billing unless people are becoming more paranoid. Probably. Republican politics = paranoia. Correct?

    A leisurely read through a trusted newspaper is the best way.

    -- Posted by Slater on Tue, Apr 21, 2015, at 6:21 PM
  • Slater,its been awhile! How you been? Getting tired of Posting about Politics? Me too. How you liking the republican Rule down there? Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it ? Glad you're still kicking my friend!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Apr 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM
  • Hi Jo,

    Been thinking about you, hoping all is well. It's beginning to look like not many sensible places are left to live in. Texas is well stocked with Chicken Little types, for sure.

    Had a hard time getting logged in here. Don't know if the system has changed, but I doubt it.

    Did you and OKR get squared up on Bruners? :)

    Take care, my friend!

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Apr 27, 2015, at 12:01 AM
  • Slater: yes Okla and I has surely had a drink to gather at Bruner's, or at least been there at the same time! We knew each others Families. He is a little younger than me. Good People! Glad you're Good my friend.

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Apr 27, 2015, at 2:09 PM
  • Not sure what part of the paper gets the most traffic, so I decided to repost this here:

    To be honest, the "softball task force" should feel ashamed for asking for such a ridiculous request.

    If the softball team did not have anyplace to play, I could get behind the request. But they do. Does it suck that there isn't a field there on campus, it does. When the sports complex was built, the softball program didn't exist. Do I want a field there? Sure I do, but i also want my kid to be mold free, not get leaked on by spotty roofs, and have the tools in the classroom that he needs.

    We don;t have the money to keep up with the facilities that we have, yet, we want to build more? Ian Vertz spends more time working on his own field than he does working with his team. What other coaches put in that type of time, for the same pay? We have a track that we can't afford to "keep right", we have tennis courts that won't drain and matches have to be moved to the park because we can't afford to surface properly. This isn't about not giving this group what they want, it's about looking at the bigger picture and seeing what is/isn't a priority. I'm all for getting a group together and developing a learn term strategy to fundraise the money needed, much like the football/baseball teams did to build their respective fields. But for the district to shell out 300-400K? Not only is that absurd, buts it's very irresponsible.

    I would hope, when the dust settles, something is done that doesn't take away monies that should be appropriated back in to the classrooms to fund something that isn't a priority, but a want, led by a group of very selfish individuals.

    The girls have a place to play, they have the ability to play there. Is it an inconvenience, I mean, I guess. Other than transportation which the district has already said they could offer, what else is there?

    How much time does the softball coach spend maintaining the current field? Do they have to use district dollars to drag it, cut it, chalk it, maintain it? Or does the park do it for them?

    We can't keep a softball coach more than a year or two, let alone ask for the commitment it would take to operate a facility to the standards that other programs have set.

    Trust me, it's not "build it and they will come".

    Disappointed softball fans, very disappointed.

    -- Posted by huh? on Tue, Apr 28, 2015, at 4:15 PM
  • Very well said, Huh. You make some valid points.

    I felt when reading the part of the article regarding a softball field that once again our school administration was being a little overly dramatic with threats that we would lose all federal funding if we didn't build a new softball field.

    More threats to the taxpayers from school board members which are elected to represent the taxpayers.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Apr 29, 2015, at 7:36 AM
  • Heck, I'm confused by the news story of a MPD police cruiser being involved in a two vehicle accident.

    How is it that a vehicle traveling southbound on 65 highway and executing a right hand turn onto eastbound highway 240 struck a police cruiser traveling northbound on highway 65?

    Making a right hand turn moves you away from oncoming traffic in the opposite lane and does not require crossing any lanes of traffic.

    I reckon I need to see a diagram, because the written description of the accident seems not possible.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, May 4, 2015, at 11:39 AM
  • Wait, wait, I have my southbound and northbound mixed up. Oops.

    That would be a left hand turn onto 240 from southbound 65.


    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, May 4, 2015, at 11:40 AM
  • There was a recent article in the online MDN headlined "Tyler Investments celebrates ribbon cutting ceremony"[sic]

    It is good to know that private enterprise has dedicated so much time, effort, and money to restoration of Marshall's "third oldest building".

    It would also be good to know; the location, including what part of town, and the street address, as well as its original purpose. When was it built?

    Hopefully some astute reader will share this information. Thanks

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Thu, May 7, 2015, at 11:45 PM
  • I wonder if the old Virginia Hotel could be the building?

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, May 9, 2015, at 1:12 AM
  • Speaking of old buildings, is the old Hayob Auditorium still in operation after its makeover a couple of years back?

    Changing the subject, how many readers have been ignored after making inquiries of local government and business (this one included)?

    -- Posted by Slater on Sat, May 9, 2015, at 5:29 PM
  • Yeah it's definitely not a good look for the NFL BFG. I mean the wife beaters ended up getting year long suspensions, but the initial was only 2 games until video came out. As you stated though, it's very sad punishment for deflated balls that had nothing to do with the outcome of games is greater than wife/child beaters & drug addicts or alcoholic drivers.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 12, 2015, at 1:06 PM
  • The NFL in the Ray Rice case got caught trying to cover it up in my opinion.

    The commissioner had to come down hard on the Pats it was the 2nd time they have been caught cheating.

    -- Posted by parkuser on Tue, May 12, 2015, at 2:25 PM
  • Multiple offenses and lying about it is why the penalty is so severe.

    -- Posted by huh? on Tue, May 12, 2015, at 2:34 PM
  • I agree multiple infractions increased the penalty, but that's like saying it's ok to get greater penalty cause you have 10 speeding tickets compared to a 1st time offense for knocking your wife out.

    Nobody would probably care about this penalty had the NFL been smart from day one & not set the bar so low. That's like if a judge gave some 10 years for Murder than tried to give someone 20 yrs for stealing a candy bar. They need to come up with a better list of punishments so that people know what to expect going forward and thus they can easily show good cause for their punishments.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 12, 2015, at 3:04 PM
  • The NFL had to punish the Patriots for cheating to protect the integrity of the league. The PED abusers are punished by the league whether a crime was committed or not. Convicted criminals are punished by the courts and then punished further by the league for harming the league's image.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, May 12, 2015, at 5:25 PM
  • oldschool, you have to adjust as you go. The penalty was set and Goddell assigned what the penalty was (re: Rice). It's not his fault that the CBA and Player's Union set the bar so low. I'm sure, as things have transpired recently, misconduct issues will be handled differently. You can't just make things up on the fly though, which I am sure you understand.

    -- Posted by huh? on Thu, May 14, 2015, at 10:38 AM
  • Let me get this straight. I get a stupid text alert when the MAC is doing Dollar Days, but not when there are shootings and fleeing felons on the streets of Marshall? Makes a lot of sense.

    -- Posted by huh? on Thu, May 14, 2015, at 10:39 AM
  • A Legend Has gone!

    RIP B.B. King

    -- Posted by parkuser on Fri, May 15, 2015, at 8:36 AM
  • The thrill is gone. RIP BB

    -- Posted by pitbull on Fri, May 15, 2015, at 11:20 AM
  • Is there anyone that remembers a Black Drummer by the name Stepper? Dressed always ,like a Million Buck! Good guy, and one hell of a Drummer.He played with my dad for quite awhile. Back in the 40s!

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, May 20, 2015, at 1:36 PM
  • Okla: The weather has been pounding you all real hard! Hope your still a float with NO damage!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, May 21, 2015, at 9:35 PM
  • Luckily I live on high ground Jo. I am very ill so have not been able to post as much as I would like, nor even read as often. I hope to be better, and to express my opinion.

    -- Posted by Oklahoma Reader on Tue, Jun 2, 2015, at 12:02 AM
  • OKal: Old friend ,hope you get to feeling better!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, Jun 3, 2015, at 2:12 PM
  • Upsedaisy, NanaDot, B-N-B, John Q, Scarpetta, Cheetah, litlmissme, Jo, OKR, nouveau blogger, Kathy Fairchild... the echoes of all these voices and many others have faded away, and now the silence is deafening!

    -- Posted by Slater on Wed, Jun 17, 2015, at 1:46 AM
  • Slater, I'm still here! I was thinking all the water had you pinned in, everything good? All this Political crap is getting too me! There all a bunch of Clowns, and we just keep putting them back in Office!! How about giving Bernie Sanders a shot?

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Jun 19, 2015, at 10:39 PM
  • Hey Jo! Yes, friend, I know you stick your head in every so often, like me, but most everyone is quiet now.

    Dry around my part down here, fortunately. We've had one of those wet springtimes that happen every few years, and we've needed it. The people who get into trouble with the water are usually being careless - usually, but not always.

    I know what you mean about the politics. The Barnum and Bailey Clown College has moved from Florida to Washington D.C. It amazes me how people are content to keep re-electing the crooks.

    Oh well. Maybe I'll go get a mason jar and see if I can catch some lightning bugs.

    Take care, my friend, and keep making noise!

    -- Posted by Slater on Mon, Jun 22, 2015, at 5:38 PM
  • Bernie is a fantastic Senator for most of us who claim to be Progressive. However, Although I support virtually all of his domestic agenda, I have serious doubt about him acting as Commander and Chief on the national stage. This is not a show stopper for me, but his charisma factor is a little low as well. All that being said, I really like me some Bernie.

    -- Posted by RationalThinker on Fri, Jul 3, 2015, at 10:29 AM
  • Hey no paper today???? Can't believe it.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Fri, Jul 3, 2015, at 6:05 PM
  • Bernie Sanders is the only one even close to keeping up Obama agenda! We can't assume he has NO chance of becoming the nomination! If we want progress for the People, we need him!! MY opinion.

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 7, 2015, at 9:19 AM
  • OKLA; Hope your doing well my friend!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 7, 2015, at 9:22 AM
  • I'm far from a computer expert, BFG, but the ads have more to do with the Google and Doubleclick cookies on your machine than the MDN website. I don't get any Motor-Trend ads on the MDN homepage, but my understanding is that the ad content you do get comes from all the 3rd party cookies and crap that you get on your local machine from your web surfing habits.

    Let's see, somebody in cyberspace must believe you to be a car guy.

    And I have no idea how to make it go away. I do have my internet settings set to not allow 3rd party cookies. Maybe try deleting your browser history?

    Leave it to us humans to muck up something as potentially useful as computer technology and the internet with a bunch of poorly functioning adware in the name of making a buck.

    Who doesn't love the 21st century?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jul 9, 2015, at 7:28 AM
  • BFG, I'm concluding the MDN wizard is ignoring you like he appaently does everyone else. He must be a blood relative to the "webmaster" at the Columbia Tribune.

    -- Posted by Slater on Fri, Jul 10, 2015, at 2:20 PM
  • I would like to know what anyone thinks of our county justice system. I recently had indirect experience with it and the prosecuting attorney.

    Why is the prosecution so bent on ruining the lives of our young people? Especially if it involves alcohol. Or they get in a fight and no charges are filed but the state can decide to press charges if they want to.

    The conclusion I have come to is it is not about justice but it is all about money. I found out the the county can take in as much as 35% of their revenue through the courts. So the easiest targets are young people and they can make them(parents) pay. I sat in the court room and saw drug dealers get off for less then what a teenager gets for underage drinking or assault. Just wanted to know if anyone would like to share their experience.

    p.s. by assault I mean a typical teenager altercation where one of them makes the other mad and they slap them no injury and no need for medical attention.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Jul 18, 2015, at 10:32 PM
  • I think our prosecuting attorneys office thinks that they are cleaning up the area. To me it's more of an effort to mold the community into what certain individuals think it should be.

    Is that what we call social engineering?

    We also seem to have declared a local war on pot at the same time that most of the rest of the country is going the other way.

    Don't have any personal experience in the court room, thank goodness, as I am a pretty boring guy. Just based on what I read and hear around the area.

    We did make the prosecuting attorney a full time job, so maybe it's an attempt to justify that. I have also heard that you are spot on about the revenue generation thing. Are we judging job performance on that? I sure hope not.

    BTW, glad to see you're still alive rr3.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jul 19, 2015, at 9:45 AM
  • Not only teens rr3! They can ruin an entire families lives' over nonsense! They have lowered the Alcohol tolerance to the point, you can't have a glass of Wine with lunch or dinner without being Drunk! This stopping People without reasonable cause, isn't right! It makes the City a lot of Money, but ruins a lot of lives and causes a lot of other problems for the Town in more serious ways! My opinion.

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Jul 20, 2015, at 12:31 PM
  • The prosecutor we have now is the best one we have had. The courts are so busy that they needed

    a full time one. Mr. Stouffer has been our attorney for years and a good one. He is very

    intelligent and always works for the best solution.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Tue, Jul 21, 2015, at 3:23 PM
  • I believe that this discussion is talking about two different issues. My understanding some are talking about city issues and others are talking about county. Mr. Stoffer is the county prosecuting attorney and in my observance of him, he goes out of his way to make sure things are fair.

    I also would like to address something Rr said. I believe you stated that young people (parents) have to pay the fines. If you as a parent are "bailing" you child out of their troubles you are not doing them any favors. Children can and need to learn at an early age that there are consequences for their behaviors. When they learn this young when the consequences are not as severe they usually learn to make better choices as they get older. Read some of the Love and Logic materials on line they are very helpful to learn how to give the child's problem back to them instead of taking it as your problem as the parent. I do know some parents are fantastic and still have children that mess up but still the child has to be responsible for their own actions no matter the age. For some those lessons are hard learned and sometimes a wake up call of jail time etc has to happen for them to learn. Sorry for the soap box but let's help our young people learn to problem solve, look at what the consequences might be for a behavior and learn from their mistakes. We all learn from our mistakes that is when most learning happens.

    -- Posted by Pidge on Tue, Jul 21, 2015, at 4:54 PM
  • "The Marshall Democrat-News invites readers to share their views and questions on any issue. Open discussions are often useful and enlightening. Criticism is acceptable as an important part of public conversations, but we expect everyone to treat others with respect. Experience suggests it is best not to post comments while angry. We reserve the right to delete comments that we think include personal attacks, are disrespectful, threatening, obscene or in other ways objectionable. Anyone who repeatedly violates this policy will be banned from participating in our forums."

    So why does "BigFatGuyReturns" continue to be allowed to post disrespectful personal attacks toward law enforcement,which are threatening, obscene and objectionable comments about law enforcement, calling them pigs and lackeys (that was just his last post).

    How many repeated violations before being banned from posting his hateful comments stereotyping all law enforcement.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Jul 21, 2015, at 9:54 PM
  • BFG Has a right to say what he wants, even though he beats it to death! This being Politically Correct has to go! Everyone should speak up and say what they think!! I personally , can't stand Donald Trump but respect his right to stop this Political Correctness! All it is ,is another gimmick the Politicians use to control what people say about them and the Country! Any idea the Politicians come up with ,the People should be the ones to approve or disapprove it! Like their Pay and a lot of other things!! The procedural process. And there is a lot that could be changed! The number of Politicians needed to run this Country! Stay in the Capital 24-7 8 Hours a day! They shouldn't make their own rules!! My Opinion!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 21, 2015, at 10:46 PM
  • Why have the statement posted at the top of the forum if the newspaper folks aren't going to enforce??

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Jul 22, 2015, at 7:05 PM
  • How do police officers know which car stops are routine. Sounds like a wonderful way to get shot or seriously hurt...going up to a car with the attitude it is a routine car stop. Below is link to a routine car stop!

    This is what police expect after going through training at the academy when they go on EVERY single car stop. No car stop is routine...the one the officer thinks is routine gets the officer killed.

    If you fight an officer then the above videos are what the police officers are expecting to happen to them and that's why they fear for their lives.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Jul 22, 2015, at 7:27 PM
  • Speak Out Viewers:

    I recently saw part of an episode of a tv program called Dead Files about spooks inhabiting what I'm guessing is the old Hayob Auditorium.

    The part I saw mentioned Frank Celoud, Grace Celoud, Estes (no recall of last name), Nellie Price, and Joe Smiley.

    I was bonr in Saline County in 1941, and I never heard this reported story until the other night.

    Anyone else watch it, or know about the story?

    Jo, what do you know about this?

    -- Posted by Slater on Wed, Jul 22, 2015, at 7:31 PM

    Here is an interesting fact...there are more than 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S.

    Feel free to count how many law enforcement officers have been in recent news involving homicides, whether wrongful (murder) or not (justified).

    Just using 900,000 not the (or more)...if there were 10 incidents that would be .0012% of the law enforcement officer involved incidents, NO not .5% (4,500 incidents) or 1% (9,000 incidents) or 5% (45,000 incidents) or 10% (90,000 incidents).

    As I stated previously there are far more law enforcement officers doing a professional job, over 99% of them.

    Feel free to read the article link above and see how many reported officers are killed and assaulted, now those stats are staggering in comparison.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Jul 22, 2015, at 7:35 PM
  • I remember some of the old-timers saying they Knew her (Nellie Price) back in the early 1900's! I remember reading about her in the old Crime Magazines back when, I don't remember! It was said in the article that she was partying in the old Tavern ,west of Lexington, by the Bridge. She was killed and thrown off the Lexington Bridge! I don't think they found her Body? I don't recognize any of the other Names.

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Jul 23, 2015, at 8:39 PM
  • Don't even try dagates. BFG hates cops for his own reason that will never change. He's prejudice against cops, probably for personal reasons but that's his business. The rest of us are well aware there are hundreds of thousands of honest good cops who would help BFG at the drop of a hat even knowing how he feels. Even if he wouldn't, well let's just say help them if they were on fire.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 23, 2015, at 10:50 PM
  • Jo, according to the tv program, Price was on her way to meet Joe Smiley but didn't show up, and her body later turned up in the Mo. River. This was supposed to have occurred in 1937.

    Frank Celoud was reported to be the manager of a movie house in Marshall once called the Fox Theatre. Some guy (the one I mentioned) started messing with his wife, this Grace Celoud person, and Frank shot and killed him.

    Now, the person who supposedly owns the old Hayob Auditorium (Kimberly - no last name mentioned) is claiming the place is haunted by the ghosts of the ones I mentioned.

    I never heard anything about this story until my wife said it appeared on a tv show called The Dead Files.

    I wondered if it's true, so I thought I'd ask you because I knew you'd reply.

    -- Posted by Slater on Fri, Jul 24, 2015, at 8:17 AM
  • Hey Slater, I've heard that story for years. Both about the theatre being "haunted" and the love triangle they talked about. I think it was usually around Halloween a couple history teachers I had would talk about the haunted history of Marshall and that was always story number one. Plus I had friends all through high school who worked at the theatre and would talk about hearing strange sounds or things falling off shelves and stuff. Now the other two stories they talked about in the show I don't recall ever hearing, but the love triangle I do know!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 24, 2015, at 9:33 AM
  • Oldschool17 thanks for being the voice of reason...I'll let it go. Unfortunately there are good and bad folks everywhere in our world, to include cops. Hope you can find it in your heart to appreciate the good ones. God bless you BFG...hope you can release the hatred and find peace in your life.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Jul 24, 2015, at 11:10 AM
  • I've heard several stories about this as a kid from old timers! Stories like her being killed in one of the bootleggers homes on Eastwood St.! There was Bootleggers all around Marshall when I was little. There's been so many stories over the years , who knows? I do know the hypothesis from Crime Magazine was the stories about Lexington? I know my Grandmother was being moved by a Black man, with a Mule and wagon ,he found a Bottle of Medicinal alcohol in one of her Wicker Baskets, she had packed , drank it, and was dead in three blocks! An uncle caught up to the wagon and stopped it. This was in the early teens! People were drinking anything! That town has a lot of History!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Jul 24, 2015, at 11:48 AM
  • Slater: The Roadhouse I was talking about was called the Peckerwood!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Jul 26, 2015, at 3:49 PM
  • Jo, I wondered...

    I've been in that place once. A couple of friends and I stopped in for a late-night suds, but the bar was closed. Someone in the place took umbrage with what one of us said, and a second or two later it was 18 against 3. You can guess how that turned out.

    I credit my mother for raising no fool, and I steered clear of the joint from then on.

    -- Posted by Slater on Sun, Jul 26, 2015, at 5:02 PM
  • Thanks for corroborating the tv story, old school. So strange I never heard any mention of it.

    lol - Maybe if us Slaterites and you Marshallites had been more agreeable toward each other we may have shared some laughs about it.

    So, is the theatre still in operation? I once read in the MDN that someone local acquired it and brought it up, but I haven't heard if it's still going.

    -- Posted by Slater on Sun, Jul 26, 2015, at 5:20 PM
  • Slater,

    The picture show is still open and was purchased by Paul and Kimberly Thompson.

    -- Posted by World Traveler on Mon, Jul 27, 2015, at 1:30 AM
  • Slater: Seems like a lot of the Taverns turned out that way in later years! But it's up to the owners to control their Patrons. They either had to have a Bouncer or handle it themselves'! If they didn't, their Business didn't last long! It used to be if someone had a skirmish, (go outside), punch it out, and the next day, shake hands and buy each other Drinks! Hard working guys having fun! To some people they would think that was barbaric. But not really in those days. Good People back then!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jul 28, 2015, at 8:30 PM
  • Finally the ole Golden Corral eye sore is gone. Now lets work on getting that big eye sore north of Dairy Queen, the ole grocery store and restaurant demolished or restored. Cudo's to the owners of the once Patrick's liquor building and the adjacent building for doing such a wonderful job of beatifying Marshall with a great restoration. Also still waiting to see the ole Generations building on the corner of the square where everyone drives by to come to our fair town.

    On an unrelated side the words of comedian George Carlin: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Jul 31, 2015, at 9:44 PM
  • So I saw the discussion on policing in Marshall, I don't usually comment but I have noticed a change in the police of Marshall over the years. I do think it has a lot to do with minor personal racial bias, revenue generation, and personnel changes in the department. I went on the state attorney general's website and looked at the vehicle stops for Marshall Police Department. Blacks have been pulled over well above average in Marshall for the last 14 years in relation to their population in Marshall(this is coming from the disparity index). In the year 2000, 259 whites were pulled over in Marshall and 27 blacks were pulled over. It might be helpful to note that the population of Marshall in the year 2000, was 12,701. In 2014, 2159 whites were pulled over in Marshall and 327 blacks. The population of Marshall in 2013 was 13,010( I could not find the population for 2014) These numbers show an increase in vehicle stops in the city without a significant increase in the population. The population of Marshall between the years 2000 and 2014 have only grown by approx 309 people. Why the significant increase in vehicle stops of people of all races? Revenue generation? New police officers? I looked at the number of vehicle stops in the town of Slater and the numbers have decreased over the years. If you want to you can check the numbers here

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Sat, Aug 1, 2015, at 1:51 AM
  • Here is another curiosity...if there were 2705 stops for the year does that equate per officer in car stops? Don't know how many officers there are total at the Marshall Police Department but for arguments sake let's say there are 25 officers. Now if my math is right..2705 stops/25 officers=108.2 stops per officer in a year...365 days in a year last time I checked. 365 days/108.2 car stops per officer =3.37

    That means on average each officer is only stopping 1 vehicle every 3.37 days (ONCE EVERY THREE DAYS) WOW REALLY!!! You mean that each officer can't stop at least 1 car per day. How many speeders, people that don't stop at stop signs, DWI's, reckless drivers, license plates violations, not using turn signals, defective equipment and so on and so on....

    Here I was thinking that we had officers pulling cars over left and right, but NO!! they are not. Now figure that out per each race and the number is even smaller.

    On an 8 hour shift I would think each officer would not only be able to pull over 5 cars but write 5 tickets a day (in 8 hours). 45625 stops per year if officers actually stopped 5 cars per 8 hour shift 365 days.

    In 2014 related to car stops, 102 whites arrested and only 23 blacks arrested, whites got stopped 2159 times and blacks only 327...what in heavens name is going on with the racial profiling of whites in Marshall. Spin the percentages in whatever manner floats your boat but the overall numbers don't lie.

    If you didn't get my sarcasm, the police could be doing a lot worse with car stops, one every three days, give me a break!!

    Can't say I buy into the conspiracy theory! Keep stirring the pot though!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sat, Aug 1, 2015, at 3:30 PM
  • Dagates,

    The numbers are on a government website so they are credible. I know it's hard for some to believe but not me because I've lived in this town as a person of color at times, I've been followed constantly by police, they actually make u turns. I follow the rules and play it straight. I've come to accept that not everyone can see the problem because not everyone experiences it. YES certain people are treated differently and given the benefit of the doubt by police. But I'll not let you berate me and I will not argue. I'll follow your advice and not argue with fools. :) Have a blessed day

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Sat, Aug 1, 2015, at 3:42 PM
  • Whoa!!! Easy does it post used the credible numbers from the link you provided. I am not making them up...I am using your numbers from the government website your posted!! Blessed day to you!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sat, Aug 1, 2015, at 3:54 PM
  • LOL...I tell you those cop/donut jokes are timeless, they just never get old do they? But yes I guess your right...if the police aren't out emptying their ticket books weekly, and are doing police reports, eating donuts, drinking coffee, taking naps and having those extended window to window conversations (which I'm sure can't be about anything law enforcement related) then you are absolutely correct in your hypothesis that there just isn't enough time in the day to harass the public.

    I have been thinking your post would be even more awesome if there was some background music...say a miniature thumb size violin playing "Nobody loves me, think I'll go eat worms" in the background!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Aug 2, 2015, at 10:23 AM
  • By the way the 2000 data didn't start getting collected until August of that year due to the law just getting enacted. So missing the first part of the year that's why the stats are so low. It says that on the first page of link when you click on the link you provided.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Aug 2, 2015, at 10:31 AM
  • You're not pulling those figures from God's green Earth...must have pulled them from Uranus!!

    Please share the link where you found that record. Holy heck that would be a news story that all the major news outlets would be reporting on. Like I said before, one shooting by law enforcement warrants a weeks worth of news reporting by CNN, FOX, NBC or CBS and the same amount of time for protest marches. Or did the police hide all 1500 bodies?? If they did hide the bodies and covered it up, how do you know about it, are you part of the conspiracy???

    I mean at least if your going to try to be some links to your factual sources to prove your point or was your post meant to be an opinion piece?

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 12:11 AM
  • Police officer shot and killed!

    Yep lets just do away with the police we don't need their very obviously corrupt, racist, murdering behinds anyway!

    -- Posted by parkuser on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 8:26 AM
  • Sarcasm

    OMG BFG your killing me...your not quoting opinion papers as your fact sources as reliable data? I mean when your sources use terms like "The new estimates" OR "is estimated".

    Also found these quotes from YOUR sources as interesting as they refute your own opinion statements... "The estimates have lots of uncertainty; it's possible, though not likely, that the BJS overestimated killings by police in the U.S. instead of undercounting them" and this one too "But no accredited source had publicly ventured to claim that the numbers published by the FBI were more than 100% wrong".

    Here see if you believe this with the same terminology...It is estimated that 90% of all missing children were abducted and eaten by dragons!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 10:45 AM
  • Click on the link and scroll down and watch the video in the middle...New Video:"Hollywood vs. Reality: Officer Involved Shootings."

    Feel free to browse the rest of the website to become more informed!

    Knowledge is Power!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 10:51 AM
  • Excellent video, particularly the point they make that the potential arrestee, the subject the police are dealing with, actually has control of the situation by the actions they take. Looking at almost every one of the recent shootings that have hit the headlines, we see that the 'victim' of the shooting had been engaged in some illegal activity just before or during the stop. Everything from robbery, to failing to submit to a legal arrest warrant, to flashing a gun at others, to running because he was behind on child support, to refusing to provide the driver's license and then trying to drive away, etc. All the 'victim' had to do was comply with the reasonable request of the officer rather than trying to fight or run. This doesn't excuse an officer from using unreasonable force, but remember, the subject made the first move that set events in motion. And where is the outcry for the Memphis officer who was just murdered by a parolee??

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 5:43 PM
  • Yes, you do have a choice. Do what the police officer asks and the situation doesn't escalate. Why is that hard to understand? But when you try to drive over them, take their gun away, or assault them, then they have to react. Why is it that people simply can't produce their driver's license or get out of the middle of the street or produce proof of insurance? These are all reasonable requests that would be made of anyone stopped by an officer. Making excuses for not following the officer's instructions is just that - making excuses. In all of these videos, we don't see the officer making an outlandish request, but the 'victim' reacts out of all reasonableness to the request.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM
  • PS - in virtually all of these situations, a gun was not pointed at anyone until the subject got out of hand. So don't claim the police officer stopped someone and started out by pointing a gun at them. That is baloney!

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 6:18 PM
  • Easy there's spelled "Bologna"

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 8:22 PM

    I can't tell did the deputy have his gun out?

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 8:25 PM
  • -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 8:33 PM
  • BFG do you actually take the time to read the articles you post links to on this forum?

    Tragic video of the 12 year old getting shot. But as cmasretire stated, the cause is the 12 year old. Pulled a real looking gun from his waistband and pointed it at officers after being yelled at 3 times. The officers were not advised of the possibility of the gun not being a real firearm, what are your expecting to happen?

    Of course if I was a police dispatcher I wouldn't make that call to tell the responding officer's whether I thought the gun was real or not...what happens if was real and the officers get shot???

    Obey lawful orders of police, if you disagree, argue it in court with your attorney, or file a complaint with police chief, sheriff or head law enforcement supervisor.

    Don't put yourself in the position where you have a law enforcement officer who has seen the videos I've posted, been through shoot/don't shoot training, who wants to go home at the end of their shift and live a long happy life put in a life or death scenario.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 3, 2015, at 8:49 PM
  • Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.

    Referencing the riots after Freddie Gray's death, Cummings said, "I hear over and over and over again, 'Black Lives Matter'. And they do matter. But black lives also have to matter to black people."

    So BFG where is your outrage over blacks killing blacks?

    Oh wait that's the white mans fault too or is it the very obviously corrupt, racist, murdering cops fault!

    Sure can't be the black mans fault!!!!

    -- Posted by parkuser on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 6:36 AM
  • Hey BFG, at one point does anybody think it's a smart idea to point a gun (real or not) at a police officer? The kid was 12 years old, that's old enough to know right or wrong. He was walking around pointing it at random people to scare them, then he decided to point the gun at the cops who were only told there was someone brandishing a gun. Take a step back and put the whole incident in perspective.

    It's the kids fault for being an idiot trying to scare people with a gun. It's the dispatch fault for being an idiot not getting the correct information to the officers. It's the officers fault for being idiots & not verifying it's a real gun before shooting. All three add up to a tragedy of a dead kid.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 8:21 AM
  • Yes I absolutely recoil from the tragic outcome of the event. However you are aware that children do commit heinous crimes as well. Pick the story you want to read....

    Now I didn't say "fault" I said "cause"....his actions were a "cause". Now if you left your fancy car running and unlocked in your driveway unattended and it gets stolen, was your stupidity a "cause" (YES)! If you are a female walking alone at night through a park and you get sexually assaulted was that a "cause" (YES)! (I can give more examples if needed)

    It's called CRIME PREVENTION. As a person you can take preventative measures to lessen your chances of being a victim of a crime.

    Do you think it is possible, that in Cleveland or any city for that matter, that there are juveniles who are outright criminals. Do you think the police have every taken into custody any juvenile criminals in Cleveland or any other city for murder, drug dealing, robbery, etc? I can think of one juvenile murderer in our own town of recent.

    Juvenile criminals can be more dangerous than adult criminals because full moral development hasn't happened. Juvenile criminals don't rationalize the same as an adult criminal.

    Do you think police go on calls knowing that juveniles can be just as dangerous as an adult?

    Sounds like to me and everyone else that your philosophy is the officer should always let the suspect shoot first, then look at the bullet hole in their body, then say "Yep, I've been shot, let me pull my gun and shoot back!!"

    Sorry George C. for letting myself being dragged down!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 9:59 AM
  • -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 10:01 AM
  • "No, a 12 year old is not old enough to know right and wrong, that's why he isn't allowed to make any legal decisions for himself." - BFG

    A child can't make legal decisions because they don't fully understand the logistics of contracts, you are correct. 6th & 7th graders are still learning multiplication and division at that point.

    A 12 year old however can be prosecuted for murder, rape, stealing or whatever. So yes a 12 year old is expected to be able to understand that killing someone is bad. Hurting someone is bad. Waving guns (real or not) at random people just to scare them is bad. Now if in your experience 12 year olds don't know this, than that is more of an indictment on your experience with parenting.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 11:31 AM
  • Again you resort to using a derogatory term for police officers. Can we all start throwing those around for black people, white people and anything else now too? Surely you wouldn't be hypocritical to call cops the P' word then get angry if someone called you the N' word right BFG?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 1:39 PM
  • Yes bfg there are racist cops and there are racist black people.

    You post as if all cops are racist and for all I know you really think that.

    I will out right say it I think you are a angry racist black man!

    Don't know if you have noticed it yet but since you went on this cops are racist kick most all of the long time posters have stopped posting.

    Ever wonder why?

    -- Posted by parkuser on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 2:35 PM
  • Doesn't matter where you got the phrase from BFG. Using the P word in regards to police officers is in 2015 a very derogatory word. You can make any excuse you want to use it, but it is a derogatory word that is offensive to police officers. So whether you think it's derogatory or not doesn't matter, to them it is so if you'd just refer to them as cops or police that would be great. Anything else is hypocritical on your part and proves your true biased and hatred which you claim does not exist.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 3:10 PM
  • Your proving what you are every day BFG! Keep up the good work of setting your people back more & more everyday! Nothing says advancing the black cause like an angry black man bashing cops.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 10:17 PM
  • -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 6, 2015, at 3:10 PM
  • "Do you also believe that when women who are sexually assaulted are responsible because they're dressed up real pretty?

    -- Posted by Bigfatguyreturns on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 12:00 AM "

    Bigfatangryracistguyreturns: That was your post you stupid idiotic waste of a human excrement. (let's see if the paper edits that).

    You have nothing to offer this world but your bigotry and hatred. Your post are absolutely moronic and are based entirely on your remaining 3 brain cells banging into each other to form a witless opinion. You twist words from other links that you don't even bother to read before you copy and paste them to your post to try and form what you deem thoughtful but in fact only come across to everyone reading what we assume is being written by a preschooler (sorry preschoolers I know you are smarter).

    Oooohh!! And turn on the news idiot and tell me about how Ferguson has changed for the better!!

    Now get your big red crayon out and drool out another one of your 5 seconds of well thought out mind bending post so we can all have another laugh.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Aug 10, 2015, at 6:16 PM
  • If you are a female walking alone at night through a park and you get sexually assaulted was that a "cause" (YES)! (I can give more examples if needed)

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Aug 4, 2015, at 9:59 AM

    It's just as shameful as the posting I recently read on this forum that outright said that women cause sexual assaults perpetrated against them by dressing provocatively.

    -- Posted by Bigfatguyreturns on Mon, Aug 10, 2015, at 5:03 PM

    Idiot...can you not read that's not what my statement says.

    Now get your red crayon out, wipe away the drool and try again!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Aug 11, 2015, at 7:11 AM
  • As of my last post pertaining to "Bigfatangryracistguy" I will no longer argue with the bigot anymore, and as a matter of fact I will no longer be reading this forum. Farewell to the non-bigots on this forum, I enjoyed reading your post.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Aug 11, 2015, at 7:21 AM
  • Of course out of all that's happening there you go to reporters getting arrested as the problem. They love being arrested, gives them more attention and publicity. Reporters push the boundaries as hard as they can because if they get away with it they are griddy down in the dirt reporter, if they get busted, they get to be the center of attention for that. Either way they win. They where all set free hours later, no harm no foul and nothing illegal about it. Is it real ticky tack, sure it is. But that's not abusing power or cops doing anything illegal.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 11, 2015, at 1:04 PM
  • I received notification today from the Marshall School District regarding the students being dismissed the first Wednesday of every month at 12:30pm and then at 2:15pm the remaining Wednesday's of each month. They say this is for "teacher collaboration." I have to admit, as a parent of students that attend this District I am extremely discouraged at the fact that we keep reducing the amount of educational instruction our students/children are receiving. Being released every Wednesday at 2:15pm was bad enough, but now the District has went a step further and taken another hour and forty-five minutes of educational instruction away from our students each month. I understand that teachers need to collaborate; however, how about them collaborating before or after school? Instead they choose to sacrifice our students education for teachers to "collaborate." We wonder why our students performance on MAP testing is not superior. The school district needs to keep these students in school from 8am to 3pm and provide them with quality education instead of cutting their education short for the teachers to collaborate.

    -- Posted by Jordan44 on Tue, Aug 11, 2015, at 9:44 PM
  • I have to agree with you Jordan! At what point did this all start anyway? I'm going to pull the card "back in my day" even thought it was only 15 years ago. We only got our early for holidays or parent teacher conference time. We never had this weekly out stuff.

    Did teachers back then not collaborate? Or did they just do it after school when kids where out for the day? I don't know what they need to collaborate for in the first place, if it was a massive school like Hickman maybe I could understand, but at most there are a handful of teachers for each subject at each school, they can't just have some email correspondence or chat at lunch to discuss what they need to discuss?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 12, 2015, at 8:21 AM
  • Oldschool - I graduated 15 years ago as well and back then we went to school from 8am to 3pm everyday with the exceptions you mentioned in your message. The teachers collaborated before and after school. Teachers also get "planning" periods as well. If a student falls behind, what is expected of them? That student is expected to go before or after the regular school day for "extra help." Some students are even required to go to summer school to work on the areas they are struggling in. The Marshall School District is sacrificing the students education and that is NOT ok. If the teachers need to collaborate so much, then maybe they need to evaluate the quality of teachers being hired. I agree with you oldschool! These teachers do not need to collaborate this much. They are choosing to short the students....yet wonder why the MAP scores reflect what they do. It's a shame what the Marshall School District has become! This District is more focused on their teachers than their students!

    -- Posted by Jordan44 on Wed, Aug 12, 2015, at 11:27 AM
  • I know you were a teacher BFG so appreciate the insight. What exactly do the teachers need to document? I have never been a teacher so I'm not sure exactly what would change from day one to day 50? I get some classes could get a little behind or something, so would be good for teachers to know that so maybe the class ahead can slow down or have a movie day or something. But other than that type of stuff, how does anything change enough on a weekly basis to need these early out days?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 12, 2015, at 4:10 PM
  • But does that stuff really change much during the year? I mean that sounds like normal employee evaluation stuff that shouldn't take but 15 minutes. Could do that before or after school easily.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 13, 2015, at 8:25 AM
  • Oh ok I get it now BFG, you're right I was understanding. Was the process different 20 years ago? Where they not doing as many updates and changes? Just wondering why when we all went to school they never had this problem of needing time out of class when now it seems like kids spend more time at home than at school.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 13, 2015, at 1:45 PM
  • Things like this make me happy I changed my mind after college and decided not to be a history teacher!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 13, 2015, at 2:53 PM
  • okla: been thinking about you. Hope things are going right for you my friend?

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Aug 13, 2015, at 11:21 PM
  • I understand what you are saying BFG as I was once a teacher as well. I know the "no child left behind" is discouraging and state requirements are always changing. The issue I have though is the Marshall School District choosing to release early and take time away from their students for teacher collaboration. Many schools, including surrounding schools, do not release like Marshall does. It's also discouraging to me that I have first hand knowledge and experience of Marshall teachers having students that are already at grade level come in early in the mornings for an extra 15-20 mins. This raises my question of....why are students already at grade level coming in? Shouldn't it be geared toward students not at grade level in an attempt to help them get caught up?

    -- Posted by Jordan44 on Sun, Aug 16, 2015, at 10:48 AM
  • I am, for once, on the side of the majority on a school issue at this website. I share in the skepticism of reducing instruction time to increase student performance. But I an also not going to write it off entirely. There is data to support the effectiveness of vertical collaboration, and it's never been done in our district in any meaningful way. What will matter in the end is our district's ability to support teachers and provide clear goals for each of those days. As the voting public, it's important for me to keep in mind that to fully see the impact this has to goa few years, and then look at data, not get impressions.

    In addition to the planning that has to be documented, bfg did a good job of outlineing some of a teachers documentation. His number five now takes the majority of time, judging the value of certain lessons can take hours, several times a year. On top of that teachers are now also being asked to manage data on themselves, their classroom effectiveness, on a number of subjects with various types of data as required for the state. All of which takes several more hours.

    I digress...

    It's not a terrible idea, certainly not a great one. Just depends on it's implementation.

    One other thing. We need to be careful in what expect of our schools. If we expect them to provide a quality education then that needs to be a priority. If all we are worried about is childcare from 12:30 to 3:00 one day a month then we need to adjust our expectations accordingly. Their focus should be instruction, imo, not childcare for my convenience.

    -- Posted by thebirdman on Wed, Aug 19, 2015, at 8:18 PM
  • I agree that some expectations have become too loose, but most of those are behavioral not academic. Students have many more opportunities in school and are expected to achieve higher standards than in my time. Do they all meet those expectations? No. But that doesn't mean we lower the expectations.

    I would be irate if after graduation all my student could do was regurgitate facts like filling in countries on a map our basic arithmetic. I want my student to be able to reason, evaluate information, evaluate sources, form their own ideas and opinions. If they have to Google the name of the country that borders south Africa, I'm fine with that.

    I agree that parent achievement is usually an indicator of student achievement, but it should never be used as a predictor of school placement. Otherwise how would you explain students who are the first in their family to go to college? That happens frequently. If parent achievement was the only thing involved in student outcome, I'd have a doctorate, but I've neither the interest nor the funds to pursue that. Could you imagine the uproar if the school told a parent "well, your child is bright, but since you only work at con Agra, we are not going to let them take college prep classes."

    -- Posted by thebirdman on Fri, Aug 21, 2015, at 6:21 AM
  • Get the government regulation out of the school. Elect responsible people to the school boards. Grade the schools on performance and give parents school vouchers so they can send them to their school of choice.

    There would be other issues to deal with but that would put us on the road in the right direction.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sun, Aug 30, 2015, at 7:18 PM
  • Most graduates can do all those things you stated BFG. You seem to hate kids these days and think most of them aren't as smart as you when frankly that's just not the reality.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 1, 2015, at 8:36 AM
  • I would have said something like 99% instead of most BFG, but I figured you'd make me prove that number which I can't. Don't think anyone has done an official survey of MHS. But if I had to bet I'd say 99% of graduates could do all three of those things you said and a lot more.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 1, 2015, at 3:00 PM
  • You say I'd lose, I say I'd win. We'll never no cause no one will ever take that survey.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 8:23 AM
  • Weird...if someone was really once a teacher wouldn't they know they could access all the student data testing reports for the MAP and the ACT scores for all public school students in the state of Missouri by going to the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education website?? You don't have to guess or give an opinion, the data has been collected and is free to look at by all who care.

    Here you go....the link to were you can actually find FACTUAL data and make yourself at least appear slightly smarter. If you need me to walk you through on how use the site let me know and I'll be more than happy whip out a blue crayon and draw you a picture!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 4:44 PM
  • Sydney, Australia -- I OFTEN wondered what it would be like to have a cancer growing inside your body. To suddenly discover you are carrying something that is eating you away, growing in an ugly, consuming mass in or around your bones or organs. To be blithely stepping through life, unaware that your insides are betraying you.

    I didn't expect to find out, though, at least not for decades. I have always been healthy and strong; I regularly do hot yoga and swim a two-kilometer stretch in a bay teeming with fish near my home in Sydney, all while caring for my two little kids, hosting a TV show, writing columns and making the final edits on the book I am writing.

    But now I know: It felt as if I was carrying a baby. The enormous tumors that silently grew inside me suddenly ballooned without warning one weekend, pushing my belly out into an arc.

    It was so odd; in the months beforehand I had felt bloated, and my clothes had grown snug, but my friends laughed and gently pointed to the vats of chocolate I consume when facing deadlines. I was exhausted but my doctor put it down to my workload.

    Then, one Saturday in June, I was struck with agonizing pain and ended up in the hospital.

    When I walked it felt eerily similar to being pregnant -- organs cramped, squashed up against one another. When I wasn't concentrating, I was sure I'd feel a kick and my hands would creep to my belly, as though protecting an infant. Then I would remember.

    It was not a baby. It was a mass the size of a basketball, living in between my belly button and my spine. Soon I was almost waddling with it. A dark, murderous infant.

    I wasn't sure if I wanted to be operated on or exorcised.

    The suspected diagnosis was bad; advanced ovarian cancer. "I have to be frank with you, Julia," my surgeon said when I asked if there was a chance it was benign. "All the signs are that this is very serious." I spent two weeks waiting for surgery, not knowing if I would live to the end of the year.

    Your world narrows to a slit when facing a diagnosis like that; suddenly very little matters. I told my family and some close friends, then went into lockdown.

    Julia Baird

    Culture, politics history and social policy.

    Executioners, Song, Silence

    MAY 11

    Stand Up for Your Cats

    MAR 28

    Will a Passion for Royalty Ruin a Prime Minister's Career?

    FEB 6

    Isolated No More

    DEC 16

    The Great White Shark's Image Problem

    NOV 30

    See More »

    In the early hours of the morning I woke gripped with terror and quietly contemplated the prospect of death before I rose to get my son and daughter ready for school. I was buttering sandwiches for their lunches when my surgeon called to tell me it looked as though it had spread to my liver. I bit my lip, sliced the sandwiches in half, and held my children's little hands tightly as we walked down the hill to the local red brick primary school.

    In the days before the operation, I turned off my phone and shut my computer. I prayed so hard I grew unnaturally calm. I felt like a flower shutting in on itself, bracing, preparing for the night, closing to a quiet stillness.

    It's a peculiar, lonely kind of impotence, a cancer diagnosis. If you ran a thousand miles, aced a billion exams, hit a dozen home runs, nothing could reverse or erase the fact of cancer.


    Continue reading the main story


    Continue reading the main story

    There was only, of course, surgery.

    The operation lasted five hours. The mass was fully removed, but it was far more complicated than anyone expected. I was in intensive care for eight days, in a tangle of wires, beeping machines, with drains in my lungs and my liver. I was so drugged I was hallucinating -- Donna Summer was doing water aerobics in the hall outside, Angelina Jolie kept trying to call me (I screened her), a reggae musician sat mute on the end of my bed, my older brother had three heads, one of my feet kept catching fire, and it rained periodically around my bed.

    When I closed my eyes, the room was still vivid to me, but the nurses were all clad in "Downton Abbey" garb, and the walls draped with velvet. I grew intensely attached to the nurses, grateful for their kindness, and lay wondering if there was a more important job.

    I also grew attached to my surgeons, who were pleased to discover that the ovarian tumors -- one on each ovary -- were not malignant; I didn't have ovarian cancer, but I did have another, rare form of cancer, which can recur but is nonaggressive and has a much higher survival rate.

    For me, one of the most excruciating parts of going through something like cancer is the need to talk to strangers about your internal organs. It's not just the abandonment of dignity in intensive care, where gowns flap open, strangers shower you and interns ask hourly about bowel movements, but that even outside the hospital, the prospect of fielding constant questions from acquaintances about innards, and mortality, can be agonizing.

    I have never felt so shy in my life. But many others have walked this path.

    Continue reading the main story

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    And I am emboldened by the fact that I am slowly growing stronger. I am walking upright again and waking without scalding pain. I am now allowed to drive, and am preparing to return to work.

    My prognosis is good, but like others, I will need to live with the fear of return. This week, my blood tests came back clear of cancer. But my scar runs the length of my torso; I feel permanently altered. It will feel strange returning to normal life.

    When I came out of the hospital, everyone suddenly seemed consumed with irrelevant, foolish, temporal worries. Reading the fine print of your mortality is a great sifter of rubbish. I frowned at the complaints posted on social media when I was recovering -- people who had the flu, were annoyed by politicians, burdened by work, or who were juggling jobs and children -- and wanted to scream: BUT YOU ARE ALIVE!!!! Alive! Each day is a glory, especially if upright and able to move with ease, without pain.

    I am still grappling with what all of this means. But in this short time, three age-old truths became even more apparent to me.

    First, stillness and faith can give you extraordinary strength. Commotion drains.

    The "brave" warrior talk that so often surrounds cancer rang false to me. I didn't want war, tumult or battle. Instead, I just prayed to God. And I think what I found is much like what Greek philosophers called ataraxia, a suspended kind of calm in which you can find a surprising strength.

    Second, you may find yourself trying to comfort panicked people around you. But those who rally and come to mop your brow when you look like a ghost, try to make you laugh, distract you with silly stories, cook for you -- or even fly for 20 hours just to hug you -- are companions of the highest order. Your family is everything.

    Third, we should not have to retreat to the woods like Henry David Thoreau to "live deliberately." It would be impossible and frankly exhausting to live each day as if it were your last. But there's something about writing a will that has small children as beneficiaries that makes the world stop.

    My doctor asked me a few days ago how I became so calm before the surgery. I told her: I prayed, I locked out negativity and drama and drew my family and tribe -- all big-hearted, pragmatic people -- near. I tried to live deliberately.

    "Can I just say," she said, "you should do that for the rest of your life."

    Julia Baird is a journalist and contributing opinion writer who is working on a biography of Queen Victoria.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 6:06 PM
  • The following Longreads Exclusive comes from the latest issue of Orion magazine. Subscribe or sign up for a free trial issue.

    * * *

    The Southern California Bight is a patch of the Pacific Ocean that runs roughly from Point Conception, near Santa Barbara, to Cabo Colnett in Baja California, Mexico. As an oceanographic feature, a bight is a long, gentle curve of coastline that forms a large bay, one so big and subtle that, on a map, it does not draw the eye. But to overlook the Southern California Bight is to miss its lively geography -- its offshore islands and deep canyons and wide basins that lead to the plunging edge of the continental shelf. The California Current sweeps past it from the north, and the winds rush over it from the east, and these passing flows haul up deep, nutrient-rich water, which supports billions of plankton, which attract larger things. Fish. Birds. Whales.

    It was the whales that brought me one morning in September. The fog was thick but the water calm as the R/V Truth chugged out of the Santa Barbara Channel. The Truth was a handsome vessel -- sixty-nine feet long, clean-lined, white with green trim. Brandon Southall, a marine biologist and environmental consultant, gazed out from the boat's wheelhouse.

    Southall had organized the expedition at the behest of the U.S. Navy. He and a dozen other scientists would sail around the bight for two weeks looking for whales, and beaked whales in particular. His assembled team, I was often told, usually by the team members themselves, was the cream of the whale crop. Regardless of the exceptional personnel, Brandon tried to temper my expectations. The weather might not cooperate, or the whales might not be where he thought they were. In the face of uncertainty, though, he was relaxed, even elated. "Beaked whales are some of the most elusive animals anywhere," he said. "They are so incredible, just so mysterious."

    Something elusive, something incredible, something mysterious. Something pure. The other researchers said the same things, even as they acknowledged that, with beaked whales, such language is clichéd. (On a whiteboard in the boat's galley, one wag had drawn a beaked whale clapping its flippers and squeaking, "I'm elusive!") But the creature overwhelmed the team's professional reserve.

    I thought I understood why. As the British poet and novelist John Berger has observed, humans and animals always consider each other from across a narrow abyss of noncomprehension. "The animal has secrets," he wrote, "which, unlike the secrets of caves, mountains, seas, are specifically addressed to man." I liked the idea of humans and animals questing in spirit to reach one another, but on the decks of the Truth I wondered if Berger's formulation was incomplete. He was writing of animals with which we already have a degree of intimacy: zoo animals, farm animals, hunted animals. What of those animals with which we do not share secrets, but are themselves secret? With them, the abyss of noncomprehension is not so narrow. Instead, it gapes. Living beyond our ken, those animals have an entirely different allure. They are entangled in our larger responses to the unknown -- whether we notice it, are drawn to it, tremble before it, or try to destroy it.

    * * *


    Photo via Wikimedia Commons

    Beaked whales are one of the last large mammals about which little is known. Their history is rife with erroneous or fanciful assumption. When, for instance, the French biologist Georges Cuvier described in 1823 the species that now bears his name, he thought it was already extinct. Five decades would pass before scientists confirmed that the Cuvier's beaked whale still existed, and was in fact quite common.

    The rest of the beaked whale episteme can be summarized fairly quickly. They are the most diverse family of whales; to date, 21 species have been identified (or, after some haggling over genetics, it might be 22). They range from 12 to over 40 feet long as adults, although most species are between 15 to 25 feet. They belong to the suborder Odontoceti -- the toothed whales -- but usually only the males have visible teeth, and then just a pair. These erupt out of the lower jaw and can be elaborately structured. In one species, the strap-toothed beaked whale, the two teeth curve over its upper jaw, preventing the whale from fully opening its mouth. Scientists think it might use its snout like a vacuum hose to inhale its food.

    Most beaked whales eat squid or octopus. To hunt them, the whales dive to fantastic depths and search with echolocating clicks, which they emit from their bulbous foreheads. Their dive patterns are astonishing. A Cuvier's beaked whale might spend more than an hour one mile underwater on a foraging dive, come up to breathe for 5 minutes, and then perform a series of shallower dives, called bounce dives: descend to 1,200 feet for 20 minutes, return to breathe for 2 minutes, dive for 20, breathe for 2, do this a few more times, and then dive to forage for another hour and a half.

    Most comfortable in the crushing dark, beaked whales can seem alien. Mammals, yes, but reluctantly, abstaining from breath and light. ("They barely need eyes," Brandon told me.) Likewise sound: other than when they click to hunt, they are silent. Even when they surface to breathe, their blowholes are so large they make no noise. "Their very presence in the ocean seems to pass unnoticed and unsuspected by voyagers," wrote the British zoologist William Henry Flower in 1872, "even by those whose special occupation is the pursuit and capture of various better known and abundant cetaceans . . ."

    As with most animals that try to avoid the human gaze, you can guess how that has worked out.

    * * *


    Cuvier's beaked whale. Image via Whaleopedia

    On May 12, 1996, twelve Cuvier's beaked whales were stranded along twenty-five miles of the Grecian coastline. Why they were stranded was a mystery, but while searching for the cause, Alexandros Frantzis, a biologist at the University of Athens, saw a notice that a NATO warship was performing a sonar exercise in the Kyparissiakos Gulf. The sonar could produce sounds in excess of an unimaginable 230 decibels. (A jet taking off reaches 130 decibels.) For Frantzis, the coincidence of sonar and dead whales was no coincidence at all. The report he would publish two years later was the first to suggest a link between naval sonar and beaked whales stranding. The event would repeat itself: in Greece in 1997, in the Bahamas and Madeira Islands in 2000, and in the Canary Islands in 2002 and 2004. The most recent stranding potentially attributed to naval sonar happened last year, when five Cuvier's beaked whales died on the coast of Crete following a joint naval exercise between Greece, Israel, and the U.S.

    Biologists suspect whales have been affected since the 1960s if not before, when, in secret, the U.S. Navy started testing its powerful "mid-frequency active" (MFA) and "low-frequency active" (LFA) sonars. Sonar has always been a means of revelation, but whereas the old passive sonars merely listened, active sonar demanded, blasting sound into the undersea environment to roust what was there. For beaked whales, the problem likely became more pronounced at the end of the Cold War, when the U.S. Navy's overarching mission changed from containing the Soviet fleet to becoming, as they say now, a global force for good. Warships ranged over vastly larger territories to find whatever might lurk in the ocean's many nooks and crannies -- the same nooks and crannies beaked whales preferred. As the most widespread species, the Cuvier's beaked whale was by far the most affected.

    That our sounds should drive the quiet whale to its death is fitting: this is the way we almost always react when confronted with the implacable silence of animals. "It is not the ecological problem of [the animals'] survival that is important, but still and always that of their silence," the French philosopher Jean Baudrillard has written. "In a world bent on doing nothing but making one speak . . . their silence weighs more and more heavily on our organization of meaning."

    Then there was the manner of their deaths. Stranded beaked whales often bled from their eyes and mouths. Necropsies showed bubbles in the blood, embolisms in the fat -- symptoms of decompression sickness, more commonly called "the bends." A scenario emerged. Beaked whales, bombarded with weaponized noise, panicked, and then dashed about in frightened confusion. They surfaced blindly, too rapidly, disoriented and in terrible pain. Desperate for escape, they flung themselves on the beaches to die.

    "Against the industrial organization of death," Baudrillard wrote, "animals have no other recourse, no other possible defiance, except suicide."

    When the plight of beaked whales came to wider attention, naval officials were reluctant to concede that sonar might be responsible. Nowhere, they said, was there any proof that sonar directly led to dead whales on the beach. (This seems akin to chasing a person into the street, and then absolving yourself of blame when that person gets hit by a bus.) But as evidence mounted, the navy pledged to study the problem.

    Such was the genesis of Brandon's project, the Southern California Behavioral Response Study. Three years into the work, Brandon saw it as his job to add nuance to the debate over sonar, whales, and the balance between national security and animal welfare. His team had made news a few weeks before when, for the first time, they had showed Cuvier's beaked whales respond negatively to playbacks that simulated MFA sonar. But the results were not straightforward. The whales' responses had varied, and appeared to be contextual. When the sonar started, the whales first stopped what they were doing to listen to it. When they ascended to the surface, they did so slowly, cautiously. When they left the area they did so quickly, but they were purposeful rather than wild.

    For Brandon, this showed that, after years of exposure, beaked whales might be habituated to sonar. The Southern California Bight hosts one of the largest concentrations of naval vessels in the world. With its deep canyons and squid, it also hosts one of the largest concentrations of beaked whales. Despite this, there are no records of mass strandings in the area. Brandon thought these long-lived, intelligent animals might be conducting a cost-benefit analysis: the bounty of squid was worth the occasional aural assault. When the fleets arrived to do sonar exercises, the whales slipped away for a few days. After the ships left, the whales returned. "They don't just hear MFA and bolt," he said. But he felt he had to be careful claiming this. The issue was so politically fraught, with the military on one side and environmentalists on the other, each clamoring to fit whatever tidbits he discovered into an ideological framework. Everyone wanted more certainty than he could offer.

    Living beyond our ken, those animals have an entirely different allure. They are entangled in our larger responses to the unknown -- whether we notice it, are drawn to it, tremble before it, or try to destroy it.

    * * *

    So it was that the Truth set out. On the back deck, a biologist named Jay Barlow unspooled a giant acoustics cable in the boat's wake, where it would listen for the sounds that might mean whale. Disappearing into the distance to spearhead the search were Ari Friedlaender and John Calambokidis in John's Zodiac, the Ziphid. (The Cuvier's beaked whale's scientific name is Ziphius cavirostris.) On the Truth, other observers took up station on the flying bridge. They would spend hours scanning the water with giant binoculars called Big Eyes. My contribution was to retreat to my bunk. Once the Truth cleared the channel the waves had picked up. As much as I wanted to sit on the flying bridge, it was gastrically unfeasible.

    A few hours later, when we were out of sight of the mainland, I heard frantic movement overhead. Someone called down, "Beaked whales! A mom and calf !" I staggered up to the flying bridge, unable to believe my luck (our luck). Per Brandon's advice, I had steeled myself for a week of anxious futility, but here we were, among beaked whales, after less than a day at sea.

    The only thing was that they were about half a mile away. Dimly, I could see the speck of John's boat wavering in the marine heat. A few hundred yards from it I could make out one or two gray splotches, but what were they? Whales? Dust on the lens of my own puny binoculars?

    "Okay, they're up now," one of the observers said. She handed me a pair of Big Eyes, and I squinted through. There: two dorsal fins. They were small and triangular, which is diagnostic of Cuvier's beaked whales. One was smaller than the other--the calf, I assumed. Their backs were pewter, scored with white. They were swimming slowly, through diaphanous clouds of their dispersing breath. But they were so far away and the Big Eyes so powerful that the minutest tremor in my hands sent the field of view skittering. When I finally wrangled the binoculars back to where the whales had been, they were gone. I had seen them for maybe ten seconds.

    John called in over the radio. "Looks like they dove," he said.

    Brandon was leaning out of the wheelhouse. "Where does it seem like they're going?" he asked.

    "They were oriented east-west when we first spotted them," John answered. "Not that that means anything."

    "Okay," Brandon said. He took off his omnipresent ball cap and ran his hand through his hair, sucked air through his teeth. "Just keep looking."

    The minutes passed -- first the twenty that would mean the whales were on a bounce dive, and then an hour and a half that would mean a foraging dive. No one saw anything. We waited a little longer, and then Brandon called off the search. The beaked whales had slipped away.

    The Truth motored on, and I was left to ponder the metaphysics of the glimpse. I was weighing the ecstasy of the encounter against its brevity and working up a good head of existential steam when Jay called out, "Did you see them?"

    A good question -- precisely what I was mulling: Had I seen beaked whales? I mean, I had seen beaked whales, but was there contact? Had we shared secrets? Had I seen the beaked whale?

    I figured Jay wanted me to answer literally, so I said yes. "And those were your first beaked whales?"

    Jay, I was finding, had a real talent for the philosophical riddle. I had seen a dead beaked whale years before rotting on a beach in New Zealand. Did that count? Most people would probably say no, but, again, if, as with question one, we were being literal --

    "Well, were they, or not?" Jay pressed.

    "Yes," I said, with growing confidence. "Yes, they were."

    "Ha! First round of beer is on you!" he crowed, and everyone laughed.

    The next day brought strong wind and big waves offshore, and Brandon decided to head for the sheltered, shallower waters around Palos Verdes. This meant, much to my dismay, that we were done with beaked whales. "It's not just about them," Brandon said while I tried not to sulk. He and the team had recently shown, also for the first time, that large baleen whales responded to sonar, and it was equally important to get data on them.

    The cruise took on a different cast. Lost was any conventional sense of remoteness or mystery. Sailing within sight of shore, I watched the sun glitter off the enormous homes regimented across the Palos Verdes hills like so many barracks of opulence. The baleen whales, too, were much more accessible. Before, John might spend the entire day in his Zodiac searching for beaked whales at the edge of reason. Here, it wasn't long before the chase boats found three fin whales: a mother and calf, and one adult on its own.

    The full measure of the team's eliteness was now brought to bear, for tagging a whale was a dexterous procedure. In the Ziphid, John had to anticipate where the whale would surface to avoid running it over. Ari, perched on a bow platform while hefting a twelve-foot-pole with a digital acoustic tag attached to the end, shouted instruction: "Left! Ahead, ten meters! Coming up on your right now! Go go go!" When a whale surfaced to breathe, the Ziphid surged forward, and Ari leaned far out, thrusting the pole at the whale like a harpoon, aiming for a spot near the dorsal fin. Tag and whale met -- pock! -- and if all went well the tag's suction cups held. Called a DTag, it would record the fine details of a whale's movements, as well as the sounds it both made and heard. (Baudrillard again: "Beasts of demand, they are summoned to respond to the interrogation of science . . ." )

    Once tags were affixed to all three fin whales, the chase boats dropped back, and Brandon began his test, deploying a facsimile of the navy's MFA sonar. In the water, it emitted an ascending squeal every 25 seconds for 30 minutes, ramping up in volume each time until it reached 210 decibels. It was so loud that we could hear it up on the flying bridge. I could only guess how a whale felt when the squeal filled all space, drilling into its skull. Brandon pointed out that these whales were lucky. "We're the only sound source, and we only run it for half an hour," he said. "Imagine several sources, coming from multiple directions, and going for hours."

    Once the test finished, the whales were left to their business. The Truth turned for Long Beach, where she would moor for the night. (The chase boats stayed behind to retrieve the DTags once, as programmed, they detached from the whale a few hours later.) The mother and calf were soon out of sight, but the third fin whale suddenly surfaced close by, in the midst of a patch of krill. The water was a reddish smear, alive with small movement. The fin whale rampaged through the patch, its mouth agape, its throat radically distended--an act called lunge feeding. It swept over on its side and clapped its great jaws shut, ejecting thousands of gallons of water. The roiled sea slopped over its body. It righted itself and breathed explosively; and I understood then why one biologist called lunge feeding "the greatest biomechanical action in the animal kingdom."

    The crew gathered along the railings to watch the fin whale feed in the warm light of late afternoon. Later, data from the DTag would suggest it had been calling the deep, sonorous thrum peculiar to its species. When scientists first heard the call, they thought it was an underwater earthquake. They still use seismic monitors to track fin whales across ocean basins, so powerful are their voices. But on the Truth, those calls were beyond our hearing. The scene was quiet, save for a few gentle sounds: The low grumble of the engines. The wind. The waves slapping against the hull. The heavy pfffwuhh! of whale breath.


    Photo via mikepmiller, Flickr

    * * *

    The offshore winds stayed strong. Brandon continued working with fin whales in the nearshore for the next few days. It was fascinating to watch, but fin whales were not what I wanted to see. I asked Brandon how he felt shifting from ciphers to this more available species. They seemed opposites: one shy and secret, the other big and obvious; one furtive in the dark, the other spectacular at the surface. Had we lost some sensation only the pursuit of the beaked whale could satisfy? His answer left me feeling superficial and a little ridiculous. Until recently, he said, biologists hadn't known much about the fin whale, either. Second in size to the blue whale, having nowhere near the humpback's vocal charisma, or the sperm whale's cultural heft, it was almost an incidental whale. That modesty was its own allure for Brandon. Fin whales were just fin whales: sleek and strong and fast.

    There were unities, too, between beaked whales and fins. In the same way the former's affinity for deep water hid it from our sight, so had swiftness spared the latter for a time. Greyhounds of the sea, fin whales can swim at speeds of up to twenty knots -- so quick that early whalers didn't bother chasing them. "Of a retiring nature, he eludes both hunters and philosophers," Melville wrote of the finback, also called the finner, Tall Spout, and Long John. "Though no coward, he has never yet shown any part of him but his back, which rises in a long sharp ridge. Let him go. I know little more of him, nor does anybody else."

    Would that had stayed true. While watching the fin whales I thought of Berger and the secrets that humans and animals share, or rather once shared. He goes on to write that we no longer know what those secrets are. Some time ago, we lost the language of exchange. All we know is that the secrets still exist, as barely audible murmurs heard across an otherwise silent space. In this, animals become one of the last redoubts of the unknowable. But people are never good at letting things go, as Melville wished we could. It was in part to catch fin whales that Scandinavian whalers augmented their sailing ships with steam engines, to help them run down the speedier rorquals. It was to kill fin whales that Svend Foyn, a Norwegian sealer, perfected the exploding harpoon, which not only killed a struck whale almost instantly, but was also fired on a heavier line to prevent the carcass from sinking. (Fin whales are less buoyant than other species.) It was the need to process those carcasses at sea before they sank that ushered in the massive factory ships, which in turn led to the whaling fleets that laid waste throughout the Northern Hemisphere and, when those populations were destroyed, the southern oceans.

    Whalers killed nearly 1 million fin whales before widespread hunting of them stopped in 1987. Brandon's work for the navy, done in theory to benefit beaked whales, fin whales, other whales, dealt almost exclusively in the thresholds of how much pain they could take. This is what happens when we shine the terrible spotlight of our attention on a creature. Even when we mean it no harm. Even when we want to help it.

    * * *

    By my last day, it was clear the offshore winds were never going to abate. There was nothing Brandon could have done, obviously, but he was not unsympathetic. He offered that I should spend an afternoon on the Zodiac, a reward usually reserved for volunteers who'd spent hours staring into the horizon through binoculars. When the time came, I joined John Calambokidis aboard the Ziphid, and we peeled away from the Truth. Ostensibly, our mission was to retrieve a DTag that was bobbing in the water somewhere near Catalina, but really we were out just to be out, because where would anyone rather be, other than among whales?

    We bounced along, and John talked about his early days working on sonar, back in the 1970s. He recalled slapping crude time-depth recorders made from kitchen timers on fin whales. "We were trying to infer the effects of sonar from the dive patterns of a single whale," he said. "And we weren't even sure that the whale could hear the sonar." It was a crazy, almost desperate time. Everyone was groping in the dark.

    We had been running fast for a while when John slowed the boat. "Oh, look at that," he said. "Company." By then, my glasses were so spattered I could barely see, but I could hear: the plosive breathing of what sounded like several large whales.

    "Looks like a blue and four or five fins," John said as I scrambled up to the heaving bow platform. The lone blue whale was a few hundred yards away, but the fin whales were clustered very near, feeding. I followed their progress by watching for the oil-slick-like impressions, called fluke prints, left behind whenever they pumped their tails. A whale would breathe and dive, and calm patches of water would bloom in its wake, as if the whale were somehow soothing the sea.

    Then a juvenile fin whale broke away and swam toward us with mysterious intent. It circled the boat slowly and deliberately, and then turned and made straight for us. I worried it might ram us, but when it was thirty feet away it evacuated its lungs in a geyser of spray and slid into the water.

    "It's going under us now," John said mildly, and I leaned as far out as I could over the bow platform, frantic to see the young whale, a "mere" fifty feet long, swimming beneath the bow, perhaps six or eight feet away. As it passed -- it seemed to pass forever -- it was so close that I could make out every detail of its radiant body: the tapered head, the blowholes clamped shut, the dark-light flesh of its flippers, the flex of its back, its sharp dorsal fin, the power of its tail. If I had fallen overboard, which I was dangerously close to doing -- which in a secret way I wanted to do, what an "accident" that would have been--I might have landed on its back. That the sea could hold such things, at once so near and so far away.

    Once past us, the whale surfaced and swam off to rejoin its group. John noted the sinking sun. If we were to get back to Long Beach before dark, we had to get moving. As the Ziphid bounded toward the coast, I asked what the behavior meant. "I'm not sure," John said. "Juveniles just do that sometimes." He didn't know whether it was out of curiosity, or youthful **** and vinegar, but whatever it was, such impulses would be drummed out of the young whale by the time it reached adulthood.

    The sun was almost level with the horizon. Nary a beaked whale to be seen. John pressed the throttle forward as far as it would go. The Ziphid flew, and I closed my eyes against the stinging spray and warm whip of wind. Against the roar of the engine, I thought of that space peculiar to natural history, where what is formally known about an animal blurs with what is informally felt, and knowledge can become something like grace. Left to their private lives, John had said earlier, even the most common animals can still surprise us. Probably I already knew that. But it was nice to be reminded.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 6:09 PM
  • Children of the Tribes

    In this country, we celebrate the First Amendment, which prevents the government from interfering with religious beliefs and practices. But what if those beliefs and practices make children suffer?

    Julia Scheeres

    Sep 1, 2015


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    (Photo Joe Toreno)

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    Shuah Jones, 15, stuffed clothes under her bed blankets in the shape of a body, grabbed her diary and Bible, and crept downstairs. Wearing a long blue linen skirt and clunky buckled sandals, she opened the door, slipped outside, and paused to look back at her house: a historic residence in Plymouth, Massachusetts, known as the Blue Blinds, where she lived with other members of her church. Good riddance, she thought. On the street she broke into a run toward the only payphone she knew of, at a gas station near the center of town, half a mile away. She'd never been outside alone at night before. As she sprinted down the main drag, Court Street, men in bars called out and wolf-whistled. She was terrified. When she reached the phone, she called her brother Noah, who told her to wait for him in a parking lot next to the Blue Blinds, so she ran all the way back. He was an hour away. She hid in a bush, heart thumping. When at last he pulled into the lot, she leaped into his car.

    "Just breathe," he told her as they drove away. "Breathe."

    Today the Blue Blinds is a bakery, famous in Plymouth for its eggs-and-cheddar sandwich and its organic pastries. It has earned a loyal fan base by charging a little less than its neighborhood competitors for food that is consistently delicious. But generating a profit isn't its only objective. Another is winning souls: The bakery is the public face of an otherwise reclusive and controversial religious sect called the Twelve Tribes.

    I visited the Blue Blinds one morning last summer. Business was brisk. As I stood at the back of a long line inching toward the entrance, I found myself staring at the employees' garb. The women all wore long hair and baggy, floor-skimming dresses. The men sported trimmed beards and short ponytails, and rolled up their pants to expose their socks. A customer in front of me referred to the "cool hippie vibe" of the place.

    "When the spanking stopped, all hell broke loose. Our one mistake was not spanking our children enough."

    Inside, customers dined at small round tables and on dark leather sofas as peaceful Celtic flute music played. I ordered a coffee and sat under a dramatic three-wall mural depicting stages of the Pilgrims' harrowing journey to America. I assumed the decor was just another nod to the tourists who flock to the neighborhood to buy their colonial cranberry sauce and take selfies at Plymouth Rock, a mere two blocks away. But the server who brought out my food, a Hoosier formerly known as Jeremy Johnson and who now goes by Yashar (Hebrew for "Upright"), set me straight. A short, earnest man with warm brown eyes, he sat at my table, welcome but unbidden, and seemed eager to talk.

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    "We see ourselves as direct descendants of the Puritans," he explained. He pointed to a section of the mural in which Governor William Bradford scowled in the foreground as colonists tended individual gardens behind him. "He's distraught because everyone's working their own field," he said. "They should be working together. That was the goal they had when they came over--to live the life of the early church. And they failed."

    Where the Pilgrims failed, the Twelve Tribes hopes to succeed. Members of the group, who number some 3,000 worldwide, live and work together, homeschool their children, and espouse a very literal interpretation of the Bible. Like the religious separatists who fled England in 1620 and dropped anchor down the street, the Tribes claims to practice a purer form of Christianity than mainstream churches.

    After Yashar was called away, I browsed a side table filled with the group's literature. Tucked among predictable testimonials from members who said they found purpose or "true love" in the group, one brochure stood out. Its cover featured a 1933 Norman Rockwell drawing of an overwhelmed mother pinning her small son facedown on her lap. At her feet lies a hammer, along with evidence that the boy has recently gone on a destructive spree: a shattered mirror, a broken vase, and a disemboweled clock. Unsure how to discipline her child, the mother grips a hairbrush in one hand, and a book on child psychology in the other. To spank or not to spank? That's the question--and she doesn't know the answer.

    But the Tribes does. When the Spanking Stopped, All Hell Broke Loose is the title of the brochure. It cites Proverbs 13:24 ("He who spares his rod, hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly") to make the following argument: "If you love your child you will take the rod and discipline him when he's disobedient. It's not optional; it's a command." The Tribes argues that progressive childrearing practices such as time-outs or taking away treats or screen time have resulted in a spike in juvenile violence and crime. The only way to reverse this trend, the Tribes contends, is by using the proverbial rod--early, often, and hard enough to leave marks. According to former and current Tribes leaders I spoke with, infants raised in the Tribes are hit with balloon sticks--thin wooden rods used to keep balloons from floating away--for "offenses" as minor as resisting a diaper change or throwing a bottle. Older children are whipped with bamboo canes. "Children are driven by their natural, innate nature to do what is wrong," the group's teachings state. "It's better to go to heaven with welts than to go to hell without welts."

    We Americans love our origin story, the notion that a tough band of Pilgrim non-conformists helped birth our nation and our freedoms. We celebrate the First Amendment, which prevents the government from interfering with our religious beliefs and practices. But what if those beliefs and practices make children suffer?

    At 15, Shuah Jones left the Twelve Tribes. Today, all but one of her siblings and parents have left the community. (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    At 15, Shuah Jones left the Twelve Tribes. Today, all but one of her siblings and parents have left the community. (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    Strange thing to ponder while you're sitting in a sun-dappled cafe sipping Fair Trade-certified coffee. When I asked Yashar about the brochure, he casually mentioned that he spanks his two boys, ages two and four, several times a day. "In the community, it's a regular way of life," he told me, and I thought of Shuah Jones, who'd fled this same place 12 years earlier. "Children who are disciplined grow up to be disciplined adults."

    That's what the Tribes tells its members. But interviews with dozens of current and former members--along with a review of hundreds of pages of the group's secret teachings, their public statements to the media, and their website and YouTube channel--tell a somewhat different story.

    The Twelve Tribes grew out of a Bible-study group in Chattanooga, Tennessee. In 1972, a former high school teacher and guidance counselor named Gene Spriggs and his fourth wife, Marsha, started a gathering of believers in their home. This was during the heyday of the Jesus Movement, whose adherents viewed Jesus as a counterculture hero. The couple recruited heavily outside of local schools and youth hangouts. Spriggs gave informal Bible lectures in his living room that held audiences rapt for hours, former members say. Many of the young people who turned up seeking enlightenment were runaways and drug addicts, whom the couple invited to move in. To support their growing household, the Spriggses opened a restaurant in 1973 called the Yellow Deli, where members worked for room and board but no paycheck. The restaurant featured booths crafted from reclaimed barn wood, and the menu delivered a subtle come-on. "We serve the fruit of the Spirit," it read. "Why not ask?"

    By 1978, Spriggs had opened six Yellow Delis and unofficially re-branded his Bible study as a church: the Vine Christian Community Church. Then came controversy. The Chattanooga Times published interviews with disenchanted former members. "We worked 16 to 18 hours a day, six days a week, until we were so tired we couldn't think," one complained. Those who questioned the leadership were told their doubts were "from Satan."

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    By this time, Spriggs' followers considered him a modern-day apostle. "His teachings were considered fresh revelations from God," said Joellen Griffin, a former member. And the revelations were extreme. Spriggs told his followers that God wanted them to cut themselves completely off from modern society. This meant no television, radio, books, or anything else that embodied secular culture. "Friendship with the world," he preached, "is enmity with God." Members were required to donate all their possessions to the group--homes, cars, money--in exchange, Spriggs told them, for eternal salvation. When concerned relatives raised objections, Spriggs told his followers to cut them off, too.

    Several parents hired a cult deprogrammer to forcibly extract their children from the church--with limited success. Besieged by bad press and desperate relatives, Spriggs pulled out of the Bible Belt altogether, relocating to a remote village in Vermont called Island Pond. Two hundred followers joined him, among them David Jones, the elder who had defended Spriggs in the Chattanooga Times; his wife, Patricia; and their infant daughter, Tamar.

    In this new setting, the group became increasingly reclusive. Spriggs decided he was destined to restore the ancient Twelve Tribes of Israel and produce an army of 144,000 male virgins, who would prepare the way for Christ's second coming. To this end, he re-named the group the Twelve Tribes. To differentiate the Tribes from mainstream Christianity, he referred to Jesus as Yahshua, a variant of Jesus' Hebrew name, and insisted members take Hebrew names as well. He called himself Yoneq--a play on his given name that he translated as "tender shoot or sprig."

    The tenor of the sect changed now, too. Spriggs began to preach that blacks were destined to be slaves, homosexuals "deserved the death penalty," and women--who weren't allowed to use birth control--had to atone for Eve's original sin by giving birth without painkillers. He drafted rules regulating everything from fingernail length to how married couples should engage in intercourse.

    A large portion of Spriggs' teachings concerned children, though he never actually raised a child in the group. (He and Marsha have no children. He has one son, by his first wife, but he left them when the boy was young.) "If one is overly concerned about his son receiving blue marks," he wrote to David Jones, "you know that he hates his son and hates the word of God."

    "Blue marks" are bruises, of course, which members of the Tribes consider evidence of exemplary parenting. "I remember constant welts on my hands, thighs, and butt," a woman who was raised in the Tribes told me. Children are expected to obey "on the first command," without talking back or complaining. They are not allowed toys or bikes, and cannot engage in fantasy play. They read only the Bible and the group's dogma. The former members I spoke to claimed most children were beaten multiple times a day, for transgressions as innocuous as forgetting to raise their hands at the dinner table and "dissipation"--the group's term for horseplay. Responding to these descriptions, a current leader of their California communities, Wade Skinner, echoed the brochure I read in Blue Blinds. "That wouldn't be how we portray our life," he said, "but we do believe if you love your child, you will be diligent to discipline them, and if you hate them, you will withhold the rod."

    That's the philosophy that guided an elder named Eddie Wiseman. In 1983, according to a former Tribes member named Darlynn Church, Wiseman whipped her with a balloon stick from her shoulders to her ankles for kissing a boy, leaving a ladder of bloody stripes. She was 13. Her father reported Wiseman to Vermont authorities, who charged him with simple assault. But then the father recanted, saying he had been pressured by "anti-cult" activists to exaggerate his claims, and the state was forced to drop the case. (Wiseman maintains the accusations were "greatly exaggerated.")

    Shuah Jones' Holy Bible was presented to her by the reclusive sect that raised her as her "first official Bible as a 'new daughter of the covenant.'" (Photos: Joe Toreno)

    Shuah Jones' Holy Bible was presented to her by the reclusive sect that raised her as her "first official Bible as a 'new daughter of the covenant.'" (Photos: Joe Toreno)

    But the investigation continued. Because the Tribes children were so isolated, investigators couldn't verify the abuse allegations through teachers and doctors, the usual third parties. They didn't know the number of children living in the community, much less their names. So the district attorney's office summoned seven Tribes leaders, including David Jones, who now had four children, to a county courthouse, to try to compel them to disclose this information. The men refused and were briefly jailed for civil contempt, then released. The state continued to marshal its forces. Three days after their release, 90 state troopers and 50 social workers descended on the group's homes shortly after dawn. Under orders to do "whatever was necessary" to identify the children, police rousted members from bed and retrieved 112 minors, among them the Jones children. As police escorted the children to waiting buses, neighbors cheered. The families waited at an armory, while prosecutors sought a court order to have the children examined for signs of physical abuse. But the case fell apart when a district judge rejected the request, stating that the warrant was too broad--it failed to identify the children by name.

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    The state prosecutor, Philip White, vented his frustration to the Burlington Free Press. "The first lesson is that it is still OK to beat their children," he said, "especially if they have a religious justification for it. The second lesson is that we still have not found a satisfactory approach to preventing and addressing child abuse issues when they occur in closed religious communities."

    The Twelve Tribes hailed the decision as a victory for religious freedom. God had delivered His people.

    Corporal punishment--which the United Nations defines as "any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort"--has been banned in 46 nations. The general consensus within the medical-research establishment, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, is that physical punishment, especially of children, can lead to increased aggression and psychological problems. Hitting a child in the home in the United States, however, is legal in every state as long as it doesn't leave a mark.

    Religious and political conservatives have often thwarted efforts to advance children's rights in this country. Consider the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which aims to protect minors from abuse and exploitation, ensure access to secondary education, and guarantee a child's freedom of "thought, conscience, and religion." The CRC is the most widely ratified international human rights treaty in history, but it has one holdout: the U.S. Although Madeleine Albright signed the convention in 1995, President Clinton never bothered sending it to the Senate for ratification because Jesse Helms, a conservative Republican, had galvanized opposition against it, declaring it to be "incompatible with the God-given right and responsibility of parents to raise their children." More recently, a group called, led by evangelical Christians, has spearheaded resistance to the treaty while at the same time lobbying for an amendment that would protect parents' ability to spank their children.

    The biggest hurdle to the treaty's ratification is our own legal system. In the past four decades, believers have lobbied for, and won, a host of religious exemptions and shield laws that have steadily chipped away at the basic rights of children. The CRC mandates, for example, that governments take steps to abolish "practices prejudicial to the health of children." But in 1972, the Amish won a case before the Supreme Court that allowed them to pull their kids from school after eighth grade so that they could do farm work. In 1974, the Christian Science Church persuaded the federal government to compel states to enact a religious exemption to child-abuse laws, so that parents would not be adjudicated as negligent when they deprived their children of medical care on religious grounds. Rita Swan was one of those parents, and she now finds religious shield laws indefensible. A former Christian Scientist whose 16-month-old son Matthew died from a treatable bacterial infection despite prayer treatments, she now directs Children's Healthcare Is a Legal Duty, which tracks cases of faith-based child abuse. "Religious shield laws discriminate against children, depriving them of protections the state extends to others," she told me. "They should be repealed."

    Since the 1970s, the number of religious exemptions to generally applicable laws has skyrocketed. In 1993, Congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to circumvent laws that "substantially burden" a person's free exercise of religion. Twenty-one states have subsequently passed their own versions, in effect granting an unprecedented license to discriminate against homosexuals, jeopardize women's health, and deny housing to unmarried couples.

    Under the guise of freely exercising their religion, the constitutional-law expert Marci Hamilton writes in her book God vs. The Gavel: The Perils of Extreme Religious Liberty, an increasing number of believers are finding ways to deprive their children of education, force them to work without pay, refuse them medical care, and even let them die as a testament to their faith. (Since 1975, Rita Swan has tallied more than 400 children who died from what she terms "religious medical neglect.") Church pedophiles sometimes claim religious privilege to try to avoid prosecution, Hamilton writes, and they all too often succeed.

    Children are defenseless against abuse. They don't vote. They don't organize. They don't have money to hire lobbyists or spin media campaigns to protect their interests. They don't have a voice. They rely on adults for protection--and sometimes it's those same adults who violate their rights.

    On June 15th, 1987, in Vermont, Patricia Jones gave birth to a fifth child, a daughter whom she and David named Shuah. These were what former members would later recall as the "glory days." The Tribes owned property along the Saxtons River, and the Jones family would spend weekends camping beside it, swimming in the wide shallow stream and roasting hot dogs over a campfire. Little by little, however, Spriggs denied his followers such simple pleasures. He banned the celebration of holidays, even birthdays. Shuah was spanked for pretending that a rolled-up towel was a doll. The rod, she says, became a constant in her life--a claim corroborated by her siblings, other former Tribes members, and, eventually, a Massachusetts Department of Children and Families investigation. She was whacked for opening the fridge without permission, for leaving food on her plate, for talking too much--and not just by her parents, but by any adult who had authority. (The Joneses declined to address any specific claims for this article.)

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    "You need to be cleansed," she was told. At communal suppers, parents were pressured to spank kids by other adults. "Spriggs was fond of saying we should be proud of these wounds our children bore," a former member named Roger Griffin told me. "If you loved your children, you were not swayed by their screams."

    Some adults did balk at the severity of these teachings. Mary Wiseman, the wife of Spriggs' second-in-command, was one of them. She became furious when Spriggs paddled her six-year-old daughter, Kate, and threatened to leave the community with her children. She didn't, though, and when she died, at 39, of cervical cancer, Spriggs declared that her "unconfessed sin"--criticizing his authority--had killed her. "Guilt and unconfessed sin is how you get sick," Spriggs wrote in a teaching on the immune system. "This is why people die young."

    This blue shirt is the first piece of clothing Shuah Jones bought for herself after leaving the Twelve Tribes. "I had never before been allowed to choose anything I put on my body," she said. (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    This blue shirt is the first piece of clothing Shuah Jones bought for herself after leaving the Twelve Tribes. "I had never before been allowed to choose anything I put on my body," she said. (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    Children have died because of the Tribes' rejection of modern medicine. During a whooping-cough epidemic that swept the community in the late 1980s, Bruce Whittenburg grew alarmed when his 15-month-old became sick. He and more than a half-dozen former and current members say he consulted the elders, who told him, "If God wants her to live, He'll save her." She died a few hours later. "It was the worst thing that happened to us," said Whittenburg, who left the Tribes in 2001.

    During her second pregnancy, another former member, Ruth Williams, developed placenta previa--a dangerous condition in which the placenta blocks the birth canal. She was told that if she prayed hard enough God would move the placenta out of the way. Despite beseeching God on her hands and knees, Williams started hemorrhaging when she went into labor and lost consciousness--at which point she was driven to a hospital, she says, and dumped on the sidewalk outside the emergency room. She woke to the news that her son had been stillborn. Another woman who labored for days was only brought to a hospital after her child died inside her.

    After Mary Wiseman's death, Tribes elders began to judge parents' ability to raise their children. When they judged parents inadequate, they split families up, often with devastating consequences, as the Jones family would learn.

    Their son Noah tells a distressing story from 1992, when he was nine and the Joneses were living in a community in St. Joseph, Missouri. One day, Noah says, he and his two brothers, Yoshiyah, 12, and Ezra, seven, were rappelling out of a tree when an elder's wife told them to stop. The boys told her that their dad allowed them to do it and kept playing. So the elder separated them and locked Noah in the furnace room of an adjacent house--with David and Patricia's support. The elder gave Noah a piece of paper and told him to write down his sins. Noah wrote down past peccadilloes, such as stealing a penny from his dad's dresser, but the elder told him to think harder. This went on for a week. He slept on the cement floor, used a bucket as a toilet, and was fed one meal a day. When he cried and asked to see his father, he was told his father didn't want to see him. Finally, the elder accused him of engaging in a homosexual encounter--with his brothers. Noah didn't know what "homosexual" meant, so the leader described gay sex to him in graphic detail. (When reached for comment, Yoshiyah refused to discuss any details but said, "My siblings exaggerate these stories.")

    The ordeal ended with the three brothers sent away to three different homes in Vermont. Shuah, who was four at the time, remembers a van driving off with her brothers as the other kids clapped, happy the "corrupters" were gone. Noah lived with a succession of single "brothers" who beat him and forbade him from socializing with other kids. "I kept hoping my parents would come rescue me," he told me.

    By the time he was finally allowed to re-join his parents a year later, his trust in them and the Tribes was shattered.

    The Tribes now has communities at 12 locations around the globe, most of them in New England, together intended to represent the original 12 tribes of Israel. The group owns not only restaurants but also businesses in construction, landscaping, body-care products, and tea. According to tax documents given to me by a former leader, the group's sales were $26 million in 2012. These earnings are tax exempt and fueled by members' free labor--including that of children. Like the Amish, the Tribes stops homeschooling children after eighth grade so that they can work, a practice they call "apprenticeship." Younger kids are tapped if there is a push to fulfill a contract. "We make no apology," Wade Skinner, the elder, said when asked about this. "It's the age-old practice of families."

    The Jones children were put to work at an early age. For several weeks when she was seven, for example, Shuah boarded a 15-passenger van at dawn with other grade-schoolers and drove to the Tribes' Common Sense factory in Rutland, an hour away. One of the Tribes' biggest clients was Estee Lauder, which contracted the group to make its popular Origins salt scrub. Shuah spent 10 hours a day labeling and packaging the scrub and other products. At a certain point, she told me, the elders passed out sleeping bags so the kids could sleep on the factory floor. "We'd take little breaks and run around and play and get spanked for it," recalled Alicia Gonyaw, who worked at the factory when she was 12. "We weren't allowed to be kids."

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    By the time he was 10, the youngest of the Jones siblings, Kepha, was working for the Tribes' tree-trimming service in Cape Cod. He wore no safety gear, and one day a large pine fell on him, gashing his head and knocking him out. Instead of being rushed to a nearby hospital, Kepha was driven to a Tribes community in New Hampshire, four hours away, where a member who was an EMT used 60 stitches to close the wound. Now 25, Kepha has a scar and suffers from vertigo and blackouts.

    Noah Jones worked full-time from the age of 12, doing commercial millwork and building furniture, including handcrafted roll-top desks that were sold through Robert Redford's Sundance catalogue. The work so exhausted him that he often fell asleep during the hour-long religious services he was required to attend twice a day. At 14, a supervisor beat him with a two-by-four at a construction site. When he turned 18, Noah left, vowing to do whatever he could to pry his younger siblings away from the Tribes. Helped by former members and sympathetic strangers, he found a place to live and work. He then sought out a former priest and critic of the Tribes who urged him to contact the press; outlets from the New York Post to CNN soon ran stories on the Tribes' child-labor practices, prompting Sundance and Estee Lauder to cancel contracts.

    Shuah, who was 12 at the time, was deeply worried for Noah's safety. Spriggs tells his followers that God will strike them down if they leave or speak out. Stories of defectors who died violent deaths circulate as warnings among members. (Indeed, several former members I contacted refused to speak on the record because they still feared divine revenge.)

    Shuah's diary reflects her inner turmoil. On one page, she describes the world as "dark, cold and empty." On another, she fantasizes about running away. Plagued by nightmares about adults hitting children, she often wet her bed. Her jaw locked up for days, leaving her unable to speak or chew. To solve that problem, Shuah says, an elder hooked her up to a transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation unit, a device that uses currents to treat joint and muscle pain. although the Food and Drug Administration explicitly warns against using such devices on the head, the elder applied two electrodes to Shuah's jawline and two to her wrist. The pain was excruciating, she says--her head vibrated, and an acid taste filled her mouth. She ripped the leads off and noticed burn marks on her wrist. Her jaw remained locked until the following day, when it unlocked on its own.

    At 14, Shuah was working full-time at the Common Grounds restaurant in Hyannis, Massachusetts, in a downstairs kitchen with other underage girls. If anyone asked, they were instructed to say they were 18. Although she was working adult hours, she was still treated as a child. One day, an older woman accused her of stealing food. In the interrogation that followed, which lasted hours, Shuah realized she would only be released if she confessed. So she did. "You must be cleansed," the woman said--and then ordered Shuah to lie face- down on a bed so she could whip her bare buttocks with a bamboo cane.

    Noah, meanwhile, had saved up enough to buy a car. He had the windows tinted so he could drive by the communal houses unnoticed, hoping to catch a glimpse of his siblings. One afternoon he saw Shuah walking alone between houses and rolled down the window. "Hey, how are you?" he asked. Shuah, overjoyed, jumped into the passenger seat. He slipped a CD into the player. "Listen to this," he said, putting on Faith Hill's "There You'll Be." He knew better than to pressure her to leave. He let the lyrics speak for him: "In my heart there'll always be a place for you / For all my life, I'll keep a part of you with me / And everywhere I am, there you'll be."

    "Isn't her voice amazing?" he asked. He wanted her to know that there was beauty in the outside world.

    Before Noah dropped Shuah off, he made her memorize two numbers: an untraceable AT&T calling card ID and his cell phone number. He knew that members' belongings were routinely searched for contraband, such as money, chocolate, or bikini-cut "harlot" underwear, and that she could get in trouble for possessing his number.

    Shuah was torn. As a woman in the Tribes, a bleak future awaited her: She would be expected to marry young, be subservient to her husband, and produce as many babies as possible. But she was also terrified of the unknown.

    At about that time, Shuah was given permission to live with her older sister, Tamar, then pregnant with her first child. The two lived in the large commune the Tribes owned in Plymouth: a 9,000-square-foot mansion with 12 bedrooms and sweeping views of Plymouth Bay. The sisters had rarely lived in the same community and didn't know each other well. Shuah looked forward to spending time with Tamar, who was married and possessed more freedom than rank-and-file members. Tamar bought Shuah ice cream, a forbidden treat, and took her to the library, a forbidden activity. Sitting in a hushed corner, Shuah learned about the country she was living in for the first time.

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    But two days after Tamar's daughter was born, the elders abruptly moved Shuah to the Blue Blinds, and her life became an endless loop of mind-numbing work and rote religious ceremony. She was put to work packaging boxes from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. every day. Her jaw locked up again.

    These people can do whatever they want to me, she thought.

    It was the last straw. A few days later, Shuah ran out into the street clutching her Bible and diary, called Noah, and made her escape.

    Although Gene Spriggs didn't respond to repeated interview requests, I did wrangle an invitation to the Tribes' commune in Plymouth--the mansion where Shuah spent several happy days with her sister and niece in 2002. As evening settled in, members gathered on a stone patio to sing and perform dances to acoustic guitar. A dozen or so children, all dressed in the same faintly Biblical garb as their parents, peered at me shyly. Afterward, individuals stepped forward to share whatever was on their minds.

    "The world is the fruit of Satan's reign," one man said, looking directly at me.

    "I'm just thankful we have a cause to live for," said another man.

    "Deliver us from the schemes of the evil one," a young woman added.

    A small boy fidgeted, swinging his hands back and forth, until his brother tapped him sharply on the shoulder.

    The sole African-American resident--a woman named Aisha Woodman, who has a degree in Film Studies from Columbia and teaches the children in a three-room schoolhouse at the front of the property--gave me a tour of the grounds. When I remarked on the balloon sticks I saw jammed into pencil holders in a classroom and resting on a wall-mounted coat rack in a bedroom, she nodded. "We strive for perfect obedience," she said. Earlier that day, I'd asked a big-boned, blonde leader named Nehemiah Jayne to strike me with one. He obliged, whipping the palm of my hand. It stung; I fought the urge to curl my hand into a fist. As I took notes, he joked, "See, you can still write--you're fine."

    At dinner, I sat with Nehemiah and his silent three-year-old son at a table separated from the rest of the residents, on the veranda, overlooking the sparkling bay. Although members use chopsticks to eat--to appeal to potential Asian recruits, Jayne said--I was handed a fork to eat our simple yet tasty meal: steamed broccoli and cheese over brown rice. For an hour, we discussed the group's more controversial teachings. As we wrapped up, Nehemiah sighed deeply and rubbed his face with his hands before giving me a tired smile. "We're not even afraid of bad publicity," he said. "We've had several people move in after they've read negative articles about us."

    As our plates were cleared, a quiet game of tag was staged on the lawn directly in front of me. The children's play seemed tentative, nothing like the rowdy versions of tag I'd witnessed my own kids play. Perhaps, as the Tribes contends, this is because its kids are more disciplined. Or perhaps, as former members contend, it's because their children have never been given the freedom to act like kids. I thought of Sammie Brosseau, who broke with the group at 18, put herself through college, and now lives in Manhattan. "I was robbed of my childhood," she told me.

    I gave Aisha Woodman a ride back to Plymouth, where she lives above the Blue Blinds bakery. Before opening the door to get out, she turned and said, "Be careful. There's a lot of nightlife around here."

    It was July 31--the same date Shuah escaped. I decided to re-trace the route she took down Court Street 12 years earlier. The night was warm; dance music wafted from pubs and restaurants; young people in shorts and boat shoes swarmed the sidewalks. The atmosphere felt anything but menacing.

    When Noah brought Shuah back to the house where he was living, his roommate was watching a concert on television. She stared at the scandalous blonde prancing half-naked across the stage, but she had no idea who it was-- Britney Spears, then at the height of her popularity.

    The next morning, Noah drove his sister to the Massachusetts Department of Children and Families, where Shuah told investigators she'd been systematically beaten, denied an education, and forced to work without pay. She was sent to live with relatives in Tennessee, where she enrolled in high school and for a time went by a more mainstream name--Monica. She went to her first movie, wore jeans for the first time, idled an afternoon away. Noah didn't criticize her when she caked on make-up or gained weight from gorging on mac-and-cheese; she'd been raised by domineering men, and he wanted his sister to figure things out for herself.

    After her brother Noah escaped the Twelve Tribes religious community, Shuah Jones kept a diary dedicated to him, "to express the deep emotion that enveloped my life when he left...." (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    After her brother Noah escaped the Twelve Tribes religious community, Shuah Jones kept a diary dedicated to him, "to express the deep emotion that enveloped my life when he left...." (Photo: Joe Toreno)

    Eventually, she did. In 2013, she graduated magna *** laude from the University of South Florida, and is now married with two children. She calls herself Shuah again.

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    Last June, I flew to Clearwater, Florida, to spend four days with Shuah and her siblings. Now a statuesque 28-year-old with long hair, Shuah projects a calm yet intense air. She chooses her words carefully. Her left shoulder bears a tattoo of a lotus flower--a symbol of re-birth that's popular among survivors of tough times. We were joined by Noah, Kepha, and Tamar, all of whom have left the Tribes, as has their brother Ezra. Only their parents and their oldest brother remain in the group.

    Over cups of coffee throughout the day, and bottles of beer in the evenings, the siblings discussed what it was like to grow up in the Tribes. Their conversations were often angry. Shuah, who still has nightmares about the group, takes medication for anxiety. She cried freely as she recounted the beatings she endured. She spent several hours in my hotel room one afternoon piecing together the story of her harrowing escape, then abruptly rose and locked herself in the bathroom. After a few minutes, I heard the shower running. "Phew," she said when she emerged, smiling. "I feel much better now."

    Kepha, who wasn't allowed to ride bikes as a kid, recently graduated from the University of Florida, where he was a member of the cycling team. He credits Noah with starting a mass exodus of teenagers from the Tribes. Noah has employed dozens of them in his construction business, but they are the lucky ones. Others, without high school diplomas, work experience, savings, or a safety net, have resorted to prostitution, drug dealing, and, in one notorious case, robbing banks.

    The Jones siblings' relationship with their parents continues to be strained. When David and Patricia heard their kids were talking to me, they threatened to stop communicating with them. One evening, I returned to the hotel with Noah and Kepha and found them waiting; they'd driven two hours from a Tribes commune in Arcadia, Florida. As the brothers headed to the bar to order beer--"to take the edge off," Noah later told me--I sat down with their parents on the lobby's small sofas. During a short, tense meeting, they questioned me about my intentions and deflected most questions. "The entire media is under the sway of the Evil One," Patricia told me.

    I turned to her husband, a tall, angular man with piercing blue eyes.

    "Do you really think it's fair to spank an infant?" I asked. Kepha and Noah returned, beers in hand.

    "When a baby understands the word 'no,' they're ready to begin their training," he said, without missing a beat. "When the spanking stopped," he said, quoting the title of the pamphlet I'd seen at the Blue Blinds, "all hell broke loose." Of his broken family, he observed, "Our one mistake was not spanking our children enough."

    This sparked a heated exchange between parents and sons. Patricia ran a hand through Kepha's hair.

    "You were never abused," she murmured. "Our life is full of love."

    "You're in denial, mom," he shot back, leaning away from her.

    Noah pulled out his iPhone to show them photos of the granddaughter they've never seen. It was excruciating to watch.

    The Tribes continues to be dogged by negative press in England, Spain, and Australia, but the biggest blow to the group came in Germany, where corporal punishment is illegal. In 2013, a reporter for RTL Television infiltrated one of the sect's communes and, over a two-day period, secretly filmed 50 instances of adults spanking children, including one small girl whose offense was refusing to say, "I'm tired." After the footage aired, police seized 40 children and placed them in foster care, where most of them remain today. In France, a few months ago, a police raid of a Tribes community led to social workers rescuing four small children whose bodies bore evidence of recent beatings.

    Shuah and her siblings are bewildered that the authorities have not taken similar action in this country. Despite the media exposés that Noah triggered, Tribes members who have left the group in the years since have claimed that the Tribes continues to beat children, exploit them as free workers, and deny them access to education and modern medicine. "Where do our human rights as children begin and their religious rights end?" Shuah asked me during our time together.

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    It's not an easy question to answer. But Shuah plans to try. She's been studying for the Law School Admissions Test and hopes to take it in December. She plans to become a legal advocate for children.

    "Someone," she says, "has to speak out for us."

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 6:12 PM
  • The Unique Danger of Implied Misinformation

    New research suggests it's harder to dislodge vague implications than overtly stated errors.

    Tom Jacobs

    Sep 1, 2015


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    (Photo: johnkworks/Shutterstock)

    (Photo: johnkworks/Shutterstock)

    Remember when, back in July, Planned Parenthood officials were caught on tape selling organs harvested from aborted fetuses? OK, the ambiguous "sting" video didn't precisely show such a transaction, and sure, most mainstream news outlets avoiding overtly making that assertion.

    But the prominent play the video received certainly implied that something nefarious was transpiring. And, according to a troubling new study, that sort of journalism--in which key facts are uncertain, leaving readers or viewers to connect the dots--may inspire people to create their own inaccurate narratives, which are particularly resistant to later revision.

    When it comes to news stories, "Misinformation that is 'merely' implied is more difficult to eradicate than misinformation that is stated directly," conclude Kent State University psychologists Patrick Rich and Maria Zaragoza. Writing in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, the researchers describe a series of studies that demonstrate this phenomenon.

    The first study featured 357 university undergraduates, all of whom read one of three versions of a fictional news report describing a jewelry theft at a private home while the owners were on vacation, and the subsequent police investigation. The information was presented in a series of 13 messages resembling news bulletins (or perhaps tweets), which were updated as new facts were uncovered.

    "Misinformation that is 'merely' implied is more difficult to eradicate than misinformation that is stated directly."

    One version of the story explicitly fingered the couple's son, declaring that he "may have taken the (jewelry) box from the home." Another left out that statement but implied the son was involved, noting that he was paying off "recent gambling debts." The third version mentioned that the couple had a son, but did not implicate him in the robbery.

    Approximately half of the participants who read each version also saw a correction added to the bottom of the story, noting that the son "had been called away on business" and could not have committed the crime.

    After completing a 20-minute filler task, each participant completed a written questionnaire about the news story, answering nine factual questions (such as "What did the police notice about the bedroom window?"), and nine "inference questions" (including "How do you think the thief got into the locked drawer to steal the jewelry box?").

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    The researchers were particularly interested in that second group of questions. Previous research has consistently shown that, when asked to make deductions, people often reach back into their memories and use the information they initially received about a given incident--even if that information was later discredited. Subsequent corrections reduce, but do not eliminate, this tendency.

    But what happens if the misinformation was only implied? Surprisingly, the results suggest the initial, incorrect account sticks in the brain even more strongly.

    As expected, the correction reduced participants' reliance on the initial misinformation. But it had a stronger effect on those who were explicitly told he was a suspect. Those who read the alternate account merely implying the son's guilt were more likely to use the initial, inaccurate account to draw inferences.

    These results were replicated in a subsequent experiment, which found the effect persisted even when a stronger correction was provided--one that pointed to evidence implicating someone else in the crime. But why?

    Rich and Zaragoza can't say for certain, but they have a strong working hypothesis. They note that people who were not provided with explicit information "had to go beyond the evidence provided in the news story to infer, or self-generate, the likely cause of the outcome."

    This apparently resulted in a "richer, more elaborate story representation" than the one that formed in the minds of the people who read the explicit statement about the son's possible guilt. It's conceivable that, having constructed the narrative in their own minds, participants were more hesitant to give it up. Or perhaps it simply lingered longer in their memories.

    With prudent caution (especially in the light of recent revelations of overstated conclusions in other psychology studies), the researchers note that their findings "will need to be replicated and extended" to find out if they can be generalized to all kinds of news items. Of course, other factors can and do influence our tendency to believe or disbelieve a story, including personal experience and political ideology.

    Nevertheless, their findings are robust, and track nicely with Stephen Colbert's concept of "truthiness"--the notion that, if an assertion feels right to us, we tend to accept it as valid. This study suggests the mental effort it takes to put one and one together may help create, or at least confirm, such gut-level beliefs.

    Even when the answer we come up with is "three."

    Findings is a daily column by Pacific Standard staff writer Tom Jacobs, who scours the psychological-research journals to discover new insights into human behavior, ranging from the origins of our political beliefs to the cultivation of creativity.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Sep 2, 2015, at 6:14 PM
  • Probably would have worked a little better to just post a couple of links there DAgates.

    Just sayin'....

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 3, 2015, at 2:55 PM
  • You seem fairly smart from reading your past you think I posted the 9 gagillion page post(s) because I didn't know how to cut and paste a link??? or was it maybe for a different reason??? Light bulb click in 3..2..1..

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Sep 3, 2015, at 4:48 PM
  • In March, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation put out a call for a better, "next generation" condom, one that will "significantly preserve or enhance pleasure" for men -- all in the name of public health, of course.

    "The common analogy is that wearing a condom is like taking a shower with a raincoat on," Dr. Papa Salif Sow, a senior program officer at the Gates Foundation, tells The New Republic. "A redesigned condom that overcomes inconvenience, fumbling, or perceived loss of pleasure would be a powerful weapon in the fight against poverty."

    But how do you improve on the good ol' latex sheath? Well, 812 people sent in ideas, and on Wednesday Bill Gates' charitable endeavor announced 11 finalists, each of whom were given $100,000 to pursue their quest for a superior condom.

    Condom technology has basically stayed the same for at least 500 years; the biggest innovations have been the switch from linen and lamb's intestine to latex, and the addition of a reservoir tip. There has been tinkering like adding flavoring, colors, stimulating textures, and anti-ejaculation chemicals. But what condom breakthrough could be worth $1 million, the potential payoff from Gates if any of these ideas pan out?

    Some of the 11 projects build on previous innovations, and the Gates Foundation may ask two or more finalists to work together on a condom design, says program officer Stephen Ward. "There's not one magic bullet," he tells The New York Times. "The idea is making them easier for people to use in the moment, in the dark, whatever situation they're in."

    Without further ado, here are Bill Gates' 11 potential condoms of the future:

    1. The tenderloin

    Boring, actual name: Ultra-Sensitive Reconstituted Collagen Condom

    Developer: Mark McGlothlin at Apex Medical Technologies, San Diego

    Innovation: McGlothlin decided that the best way to make a condom that feels like a second skin is to reinvent the leather condom, in this case using collagen fibers from bovine tendons. Yes, it's a cow condom. On the one hand, porking with beef sounds very unappetizing. On the other, says Chris Higgins at Mental Floss, "leftover beef tendons are cheap, and they're also strong natural materials."

    By embedding very thin fibers from them in a cross-linked pattern, a strong-but-thin organic material is created. Researchers also note that the "micro-rough" quality of collagen is great for heat transfer, which lends itself to a plethora of "hot beef" jokes that we'll leave to your imagination. [Mental Floss]

    2. The shrinking sheath

    Boring, actual name: Dynamic, Universal Fit, Low Cost Condom

    Developer: Benjamin Strutt at Cambridge Design Partnership, Cambridge, England

    Innovation: Strutt has repurposed a "composite anisotropic" material -- it is stronger when force is applied to it in certain directions -- to create a one-size-fits-all condom "designed to gently tighten during intercourse, enhancing sensation and reliability." In other words, the condom shrinks onto the ***** during sex, making it feel more invisible and reducing the chance of leakage.

    3. The handle bar (aka The big easy)

    Boring, actual name: Project Rapidom

    Developer: Willem van Rensburg at Kimbranox (Pty) Limited, Stellenbosch, South Africa

    Innovation: Van Rensburg has already created a stir by creating a condom with applicator handles, and he promises to improve the design with the Gates Foundation money. The idea is that men are more likely to use a condom if they can put it on quickly and correctly, without too much interruption. "In sub-Saharan Africa, sex is basically done with low light and it might be very difficult to see the direction of the condom," explains Dr. Sow.

    Here's an earlier iteration of van Rensburg's condom handle in action:

    4. The Saran wrap

    Boring, actual name: Ultra Sheer "Wrapping" Condom with Superior Strength

    Developer: Ron Frezieres at California Family Health Council, Los Angeles

    Innovation: If Strutt's condom shrinks, Frezieres' is supposed to cling -- as in the polyethylene film you use to wrap up and cover your food for refrigeration. Frezieres says he wants a condom that "clings like Saran Wrap rather than squeezes," and he's found a prototype in Colombia.

    The Colombian version is already sold in eight countries, says The New Republic's Andy Isaacson. Frezieres group plans on "perfecting its design, replacing the oil-based lubricant for one that's silicone-based, and working through the requisite FDA approvals." The American version of the condom will also borrow a page from van Rensburg and contain tabs to help don the sheath. Unlike van Rensburg's, the pull tabs are part of the condom, not the packaging. You can see an illustration of Frezieres' condom in action here.

    5. The Model T

    Boring, actual name: Engineering a Biologically Inspired Condom

    Developer: Patrick Kiser at Northwestern University, Evanston, Ill.

    Innovation: Kiser proposes to create a new polymer compound similar to lubricated skin, then use the material to mass-produce condoms. "These technologies could improve sensation and the condoms would be readily manufacturable for deployment across the globe," Kiser says in his pitch.

    6. The warm embrace

    Boring, actual name: Graphene-Based Polymer Composites For High Heat Transfer, Improved Sensitivity And Drug Delivery

    Developer: Lakshminarayanan Ragupathy at HLL Lifecare, Trivandrum, India

    Innovation: The big advance in this Indian condom is the use of graphene, a crystalline form of carbon that is super thin, super strong, and very flexible. "It also conducts heat," the Gates Foundation notes. HLL Lifecare "will mix graphene with currently used condom materials to produce thinner, heat-conducting condoms, and incorporate drugs and compounds to further enhance safety as well as sexual experience." Hot.

    7. Daddy's little helper

    Boring, actual name: Super-Hydrophilic Nanoparticle Condom Coating

    Developer: Karen Buch and Ducksoo Kim at Boston University

    Innovation: Nanoparticles. Buch and Kim will dress up their condom with "a super-hydrophilic nanoparticle coating" that will add a thin layer of lubrication, helping protect the condom from breakage.

    8. The memory stick

    Boring, actual name: Ultrathin Adaptable Condoms for Enhanced Sensitivity

    Developer: Richard Chartoff at the University of Oregon, Eugene

    Innovation: Chartoff proposes developing a strong, ultra-thin, shape-memory material from polyurethane elastic polymers that will activate with warmth. "Think of something similar to shrink wrap that conforms to the shape of an object as it is heated," says The New Republic's Isaacson. "Now think of a *****: During intercourse, body heat would cause molecules in the condom to contract, molding it to the user." The material would also be about half as thin as latex condoms.

    9. The cheating heart

    Boring, actual name: The Condom Applicator Pack (CAP)

    Developer: Michael Rutner and Russell Burley at House of Petite Pty, in Sydney, Australia

    Innovation: Rutner and Burley also tackle the problem of having to put on a condom with your bare hands. Their plan is to create a universal condom applicator that can be used to make sure the prophylactic is put on correctly and without tearing a hole. The condom helper will be conveniently packaged with a condom.

    10. The invincible Trojan

    Boring, actual name: An Enhanced Condom Using Nanomaterials

    Developer: Aravind Vijayaraghavan at the University of Manchester, England

    Innovation: Vijayaraghavan and his team are also proposing to create a new material using graphene. Their condom material will be designed with his pleasure in mind, but it will also be durable. Really durable. "Graphene is unbelievably strong (roughly 100 times stronger than steel)," notes Mental Floss' Higgins, and this "could lead to a nearly indestructible condom."

    11. The invisible glove

    Boring, actual name: Ultra-Sensory Condoms Based on New Superelastomer Technology

    Developer: Jimmy Mays at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville

    Innovation: Mays is going for realism, in the form of a highly elastic polymer called superelastomers. That should allow for soft, super thin, and cheap-to-produce condoms. "The goal is to make a condom that has the same texture as human skin -- you won't even know it's there," Mays tells The New Republic. He's been researching this kind of soft, durable plastic for 25 years, and the Gates thing sparked an epiphany. "I'm not a condom guy," he tells The New Republic, "I'm a polymer chemist, and our material was tailor-made for this purpose."

    If only someone's dad had used one...then we wouldn't have to read their moronic post.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Sep 3, 2015, at 8:46 PM
  • Wonderful to see hypocrisy is alive and well...bigfatangryracistguyreturns is the biggest racist of all.

    Ok I actually have a job and more importantly a life so I won't be staying up until 1:07am to make a post...good night.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Sep 3, 2015, at 10:02 PM
  • What?!

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 1:07 AM
  • Good one, Have.

    So, DAgates, do you also stick your fingers in your ears and shout " CAN'T HEAR" whenever someone says something you don't like?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 7:21 AM
  • Today I have the task to announce the passing of Oklahoma Reader, which some of you may already know.

    Van Tobin, also known as Oklahoma Reader, died on August 26 after a short struggle with cancer, which was discovered this past November in his lung and lymph system.

    When he learned of his condition, he asked me to make this announcement after his passing.

    Rest in peace, my friend!

    -- Posted by Slater on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 8:30 AM
  • My condolences to the entire family! We will miss him on this Blog! Farewell my Friend .

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 2:49 PM
  • No I only do the fingers in the ear and when someone post the same rhetoric over and over and over again...beating the dead horse thinking it will come back to life....then I tone out!!!

    "Have" is "BFG" logged in under different account, but yes hilarious staying up until the exact same time to make a funny post.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 3:48 PM
  • I, too, enjoyed OKR's smooth take on most topics. A devoted liberal, a poet, and interesting guy. I have missed his commentary on the blog.

    Rest in peace, Oklahoma Reader.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 3:49 PM
  • -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 4:08 PM
  • I wish I could take credit, but the exactness of that was accidental. I knew I was close, but right on it? Serendipity.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 6:17 PM
  • On a much more serious note, I know I'm gonna miss OK Reader's perception and wisdom tremendously. I'm glad to have the info - but it's certainly not info I wanted to hear. RIP in truth.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 6:20 PM
  • I came to the conclusion in the same manner that you conclude that all white police officers are evil, white hood wearing, ready to blast every black person away that are running away with their hands in the air!!

    In short you would have to be the biggest racist of all to make such stereotypical statements, which you repeatedly beat the dead horse about time and time again.

    Yes, I get it!!, there are sorry no good cops, some racist and some not, that have no business being cops. I just take offense when you say all are bad when they are the few and not the many.

    I think I have made my opinions clear in all my previous post so I will not beat my dead horse about the issue any further.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Sep 4, 2015, at 11:12 PM
  • BFG: I've been thinking about this Racist thing that you've been discussing and how I might fit in this thing. I don't think I would be consider a Racist as much as a bigot! I have opinions of my own that is hard to debate. I have certain thought out Opinions that is hard for me to have a change of mind! I have a hatred of Bullies, Predators, Preying on the weak and vulnerable! Men and Women sitting and complaining about not having enough to feed their kids (but) have a body full of expensive Tattoos! Priorities have NO place in their attitude! Maybe ignorance has a big role in this too! But I don't care what color or origin they come from. I TRIED TO BE FAIR! That was part of my decision to resign every job of authority I ever had when dealing with blacks , whites or anyone else! that's not racist in my mind! I would call it bigotry! I've seen some very disturbing things in dealing with Humans! Every Police Officer that doesn't do his job as he should, and it turns him into a Monster he should be relieved of duty, or (Resign)! I am with you there! But you're not being truthful when you condemn all of them! If you or your Family ever need help they will be there, you can count on that, my friend!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Sep 5, 2015, at 10:09 PM
  • Jo, I'm going to jump in here to say that I feel much the same way as you about the things you mentioned. My list would include most of what's on yours, but I've put them under the general heading of Deliberate Ignorance, and I call them my prejudices.

    I've seen your passion at work in here, but now I see how deep it runs. I sensed your compassion and concern from our first conversations beginning some eight years ago.

    You aren't bigoted. If you were, you would have no regard for others.

    I've been following along as BFG has expressed his hatred of the police, and I'm expecting the exchanges between you two to be interesting.

    -- Posted by Slater on Sun, Sep 6, 2015, at 12:01 AM
  • Jo, I agree with everything you said in you post.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Sep 6, 2015, at 9:00 AM
  • or "your" post...sorry running out the door for work...bye for now!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Sep 6, 2015, at 9:02 AM
  • Slater: We haven't seen that many of your post's! It get's boring to keep going over the same ground. These people running for the Nomination, on both sides are the same ,not much difference! We need some new Blood and go a different direction with a little Socialism in the mix. We have it everywhere now and it works well! Bernie Sanders has always been a Democratic Socialist. I think that's way people are taking notice of his speeches! The People of this sick and tired of the complete ownership of the World & throwing use scraps, to keep us quit! We need another Obama thinker to keep his ideas going, Bernie is the closest we have to that idea of demanding some of the wealth! Check him out when he makes his speeches ? He & Elisabeth Warren would make a good pair on the Democratic side in my opinion. This Republican ideology does not work for everyone and never has ! We have to support everyone in this Country! If not we fail! Slater that was a shock to hear about Van Tobin's Death! We knew each others family! I knew his Dad & Mother! I was 5 years older than him. My dad and his Hunted together, on the Malta Bend river Cutoff! Thanks for the death notice!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 6, 2015, at 11:52 AM
  • Feel the Bern, BFG!

    I reckon I am with Jo's opinion regarding those who seem to have plenty of money for cigarettes and tatoos, but need public assistance to house and feed their kids.

    I don't think that's bigotry, Jo, just your middle class American work ethic showing through.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Sep 7, 2015, at 9:19 AM
  • I am posting this to inform those who have enjoyed sparring with the Oklahoma reader on this network that he lost his battle with cancer last week. He was laid to rest this past Saturday. I know the interactions were great and sometimes a bit inflamed but he thoroughly enjoy every moment. Ok Reader made some good friend here and for me I say thanks and for him I say Goodbye!

    -- Posted by jatboss on Mon, Sep 7, 2015, at 10:37 AM
  • Sorry, I don't usually comment on the main Speakout, because, for me, everything always ends up in politics, but nobody was talking on the political blog, so I just sat out.

    I don't think either of you are bigots, BFG or Jo. Neither of you seem to like authority much - but I don't think it's bigoted to have strong opinions about that. I guess you could say somebody is bigoted for intensely disliking bullies, or people who take public assistance and don't need it - or use it for stuff that we shouldn't have to subsidize, if you're going to be technicsl about it, but it seems like a misuse of the term. Both of those are pretty objectionable behaviors, so I wouldn't think it's bigoted to be strongly against them (although I would like to mention that tattoos are permanent - it would certainly be possible to get them on your own dime, then fall into need. A lot of tattoos might even make it harder to make a living - which then makes it more your fault since you chose to have them, but it's pretty common for people to miss possible bad outcomes until too late.)

    Do you hate all cops and does that make you a bigot, BFG? I was reading you to hate the role cops play in America. If you're a bigot for hating that, it makes it pretty hard to oppose anything. I mean, I'm seriously against the unfair advantage rich people have. If that means I'm bigoted against rich people (which my strong opinions about wealth can certainly look like), it becomes really hard to effectively oppose the way wealth is divided.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Sep 7, 2015, at 2:23 PM
  • This one, I agree with you! there was no justification for that kind of take down! You always want the shock factor, but never that violent, with one individual !

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Sep 12, 2015, at 9:23 PM
  • The best part is: When a law enforcement officer is found guilty or the agency settles after the excessive force case it's always the tax payer that pays the money.

    -- Posted by World Traveler on Sun, Sep 13, 2015, at 6:26 PM
  • News Across: Wondering how you are my friend!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Sep 13, 2015, at 8:44 PM
  • -- Posted by World Traveler on Tue, Sep 15, 2015, at 3:48 AM
  • The cops don't shoot people hundreds of thousands of times a day BFG. So it should still be a large surprise anytime they do because the numbers prove that it's an extremely low percentage of the overall totals.

    But yes I do agree that no completely innocent person should ever be harassed like that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 17, 2015, at 2:43 PM
  • I'm curious, OS. I find it hard to believe that you're saying it's OK as long as it's not hundreds of thousands a day. What's an extremely low percentage of what totals?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Sep 17, 2015, at 5:51 PM
  • I am not saying it's OK at all, I actually said in my comment it was horrible. I simply was referring to BFG's statement that it's more a surprise to him when someone doesn't get shot. With a million police officers on duty, dealing with multiple people every day, that's a whole lot of times people don't get shot.

    No I don't have exact figures on how many people are shot by police, but I'd be willing to bet it's less than 1% of the total number of traffic stops, arrest, and any other run ins with the cops that don't involve a shooting.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Sep 18, 2015, at 8:09 AM
  • You don't have exact figures on how many are shot by police because neither does anybody else. Unbelievably, those statistics aren't kept well at all. It helps keep anyone from being accountable. The English newspaper "The Guardian" has been keeping track (link below)

    So the incidence of police shootings out of total police stops is what you're saying is a low percentage? You're probably right, although police shootings in the US happen on an off the charts scale compared to other countries (55 in England & Wales in the last 24 years, for example, But the thing that's being raised is that out of those total shootings, non-white people are much more likely to be the victims than whites. That's what we're talking about.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Sep 18, 2015, at 11:06 AM
  • bigfatguyreturns, The school and police did what

    they are trained to do. They didn't pick on the kid because he was a muslum. What if it had been a bomb and it blew up and killed many, many kids. Would

    you have wanted your kids there. This racist thinking has got to stop or we will never be a

    nation again.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Fri, Sep 18, 2015, at 4:56 PM
  • The terrorist are winning if we let this kind of thing happen! This entire Country is paranoid! But what do you expect with this kind of Government! They should have turned Bush & Cheney and the other 5 over to them, or at least put them on trial for War Crimes!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Sep 18, 2015, at 8:36 PM
  • You're right, Jo. The terrorists are winning when we restrict our civil liberties because we're scared.

    911 was a criminal enterprise and much of the world was with us in prosecuting criminals. They stopped being with us when we declared war on people who had nothing to do with it (Iraq).

    Talk about blowback!

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Sep 19, 2015, at 8:37 AM
  • President Bush kept us safe from the terrorists.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 8:01 AM
  • TimeLord,

    911 happened on W's watch. With tax cuts for the wealthy and the Iraq invasion based on lies, W took a record surplus and turned it into a record deficit in record time. That is his record.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 10:18 AM
  • I need to clarify my misstatement. W ran up the national debt at a higher rate than his predecessors and left the economy in serous disarray.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 11:07 AM
  • Time Lord: I think you better Check out his record a bit further! This guy was a complete clown and Puppet for Cheney & Republican Party! This Bush & Cheney should have been Prosecuted along with 4 or 5 others! I can't believe every body don't see this! Most of the Veteran's knows this !

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 12:31 PM
  • Just a couple of points here,

    uh one, The Democrats crashed the economy by creating the housing bubble with regulations that required banks to make loans to people who could never afford to repay the loans.

    And two, the intelligence Bush had mislead him into saying the Iraqis had nukes. It cannot be a lie if he himself believed it was true. He was mistaken, not lying.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM
  • Republicans & Democrats have both screwed us all over plenty of different times. Trying to blame one more than the other is pointless. They both suck.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 3:21 PM
  • Oldschool,

    I know how you feel, but there is one candidate out there that is a real mustang, Donald Trump -- he will make America great again!

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 3:33 PM
  • You blame the Democrats for crashing the Economy? It's obvious you haven't kept up with things! The Republican's did that & a lot of other misdeeds! wake up and check it out!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 4:01 PM
  • TimeLord, you need to check your facts. 1) Bush never claimed the Iraqis had nukes. He claimed they had 'weapons of mass destruction' meaning poison gas types of weapons. His staff twisted intel so that even Colin Powell was mislead. 2) There are no regulations requiring banks to loan to people who can't repay the loans. Banks are prohibited from discriminating, but they are free to refuse loans that people aren't capable of repaying. The banks made these loans because they were greedy and counted on the Feds (i.e. taxpayers) to bail out their foolish loans.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 5:26 PM
  • My apologies, TimeLord, Bush did not claim that Iraq had nukes but was 'developing' nukes (remember the 'yellow cake' fiasco that proved to be phony), but the main claim was that they were developing non-nuke WMDs and had never destroyed the ones they once had - both claims proven false.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 5:53 PM
  • Yes as I pointed out, Bush was mislead by democrats in the NSA and CIA.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 7:07 PM
  • TimeLord, are you a Dr. Who fan? How wonderful! But, on to politics. Most of the bad loans were in the private economy, who weren't obliged to give anybody loans, not the public sector that the Community ReInvestment Act applied to (the law that told banks they couldn't red-line minority or low-income neighborhoods). Bloomberg pointed this out here in 2011: Banks & mortgage companies made loans to people who couldn't repay without even verifying any of their info because it was immensely profitable to the individuals who made the loans (corporate officers, mortgage brokers, etc.) even though it would result in record losses. They thought that by the time the losses hit, they would have sold the debt to somebody else & be gone with their bonuses - and they felt the financial sector wouldn't be allowed to fail anyway (the bailout.) I remind you here that the main justification for the interest charged on a loan is the risk assumed - which they didn't take responsibility for. They just took the profits. William K. Black who teaches at UMKC, was the head regulator during the savings & loan crisis of the '80's where he put around a thousand bankers in jail and is really good on this subject. Prosecuting fraud is a really important tool, which he was quite good at.

    On Iraq & WMD, there's a question that has bothered me for a while, which maybe you have an answer to. If the Bush Administration really thought there were WMD in Iraq, then how could they have possibly been as unconcerned about looting as they were? I mean, if they thought there were WMD there for looters to get their hands on - wouldn't that be as bad or worse than Saddam Hussein having them? Wouldn't we be missing the point of the war not to do any and everything to stop the looting? As I recall, what happened was that Donald Rumsfeld (a representative of the Bush Administration) went to great lengths to tell us that looting wasn't that big a deal. It looks to me like he wasn't fooling himself, he was just lying to us.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 7:42 PM
  • Oh my, all those Democrats in the NSA & the CIA. I bet they were running the place during the Bush Administration. But I thought the Bush Administration stopped listening to the CIA and created their own intelligence unit in the Defense Department. There was a lot of controversy about that at the time.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Sep 21, 2015, at 7:49 PM
  • Ya know, I am pretty surprised to see there are so many liberals in Marshall So far, it appears one Patriot has been singlehandedly keeping this forum safe for facts and common sense.

    All that changes now. I don't scare off easily and now you have 2 patriots to deal with!!

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 12:15 AM
  • Oh, so only the righteous right-wingers are patriots, eh?

    Good one.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 7:53 AM
  • I'm so glad you're here, TimeLord. I've been looking for conversation with people I disagree with, because I often can't imagine what they're thinking and I'd like to ask why they hold the opinions they do. So now I have a chance. Here goes.

    Why do you feel that the forum on this paper is a place that needs to be defended from liberal opinions? I don't think the powers that be care much what we say here. (SD, I'm still waiting to get my little heart blessed, by the way.)

    Extending SD's more recent question - and asking it seriously: Why do you think nobody here (with one exception & I'm not sure who) is a patriot?

    Why do you think anybody's trying to scare you away by thinking you're wrong? Your last comment seemed kind of belligerent to me and I'm wondering why this is supposed to be a fight, not a conversation.

    Which leads me to a wider question: Since the US is a democracy, shouldn't we citizens be talking about how we want to run the country? And doesn't that include all of us, even if we think we're talking to idiots? Isn't the point to try to persuade each other, rather than having to fight it out? And isn't this one place to do that?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 8:45 AM
  • We don't have two patriots to deal with, we have two gadflys to deal with. The newest one has lowered the collective IQ.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 9:00 AM
  • Patriots love their country, no matter what. Patriots defend their country, no matter what.

    Patriots humbly worship God and defend their country's honor.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 10:05 AM
  • Patriots love their country, no matter what.

    Patriots defend their country, no matter what.

    Patriots humbly worship God and defend their country's honor.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 10:06 AM
  • TL, I don't think you know anything about whether I or anybody else on this blog love their country.

    Regarding defending the country - do you mean serving in the armed forces? Or do you mean saying that the US is absolutely right in the actions it takes? Or is it something else? If it's the armed forces, are you saying that there have only been female patriots since 2013, because that's when US women started to be allowed in combat roles? And on a similar note, do you feel that John Kerry and George McGovern qualify as patriots since they served, but Dick Cheney doesn't? (George Bush and his service are also highly questionable here.) If it's about claiming the US is always right, what about people who claim we were right to invade Iraq, but wrong to put Obamacare into effect, although it was passed by Congress and signed into law? What about people who write letters to foreign governments telling them not to negotiate with the duly elected President of the United States, because they shouldn't regard him as credible? Are they patriots?

    And the requirement that patriots humbly worship God seems to have been left out of the Constitution. Do patriots respect the Constitution?

    Defending the country's honor is a completely subjective phrase. Could you define that a little better?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 10:29 AM
  • And I do agree with you that humility is a virtue. Tell it to Donald Trump.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 11:14 AM
  • HTS,

    Its easy -- either your with America or you against America. Its not like its hard to understand.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 12:28 PM
  • I'm with America (whatever that means). But it doesn't mean I think everything done by America is a good choice. How could anybody think that? America has done a lot of contradictory things.

    I don't see how loving America means abandoning logic or moral choice - I mean, America's a democracy. That means I have to think about what it needs to be doing, because that decision is up to me, as well as everybody else. THAT'S what I love and am with about America.

    This "Either your with America, or you against America" isn't just simplistic - it's meaningless. How can you think it's easy to understand?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 12:42 PM
  • Oh come on HTS, its obvious liberals hate America and its common knowledge. Why is it you libtards have to re-examine the same facts over and over again hoping you will somehow get new facts out of old? Everyone knows its true. Stop pretending -- that is the first step towards normalcy.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 12:49 PM
  • I'm disappointed TL. You haven't answered even one of my questions. All you do is come back with meaningless slogans or insults. So, is your argument that you're right because it's obvious that you're right? Really?

    Wow! That's amazingly weak!

    Now, if a majority agrees with you, we do live in a democracy and you would win that election, but if the question is "Do liberals hate America?", I think you'd have a tough time topping 20% with a "yes" And what would it mean?

    Are we back to trying to throw people off the island?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 2:06 PM
  • HTS,

    I don't claim to have all the answers to all your questions, but so far I have answered all your questions accurately. You just don't like the answer, that's all.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 2:47 PM
  • Tell me again one question you answered with a sentence in English that you can explain with something more cogent than "Because I'm right and you're wrong, that's why!"

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM
  • HTS,

    There have been so many questions I have answered now that I can't recall anything specific one way or the other about any specific questions. Sorry!

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 3:17 PM
  • HTS,

    You are dealing with a quintessential internet troll. TL has probably been banned from several forums.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 5:10 PM
  • That may be true. I really wanted to have a clear conversation with somebody I disagree with seriously. TL's last response made me think that wasn't going to happen, although I appreciate the "Sorry!" Everything else was a cop out as far as I'm concerned. I've made my point.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 5:17 PM
  • You guys are so easy...not like the old days with OKR, rr, and ND...(sigh).

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 5:57 PM
  • And dr,

    I had tea goobers as angry as a fire cracker in this forum long before you ventured into the fray -- not that you are a tea goober, I know you are not. But I must admit, I have always admired your direct style...BUT ME "TROLL?" NEVER!

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 6:30 PM
  • Like I said on the wrong speakout - Impossible to live up to OKR, that's certain.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 22, 2015, at 6:54 PM
  • TL was goofing on us.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 11:34 AM
  • B.f.g.: I'm with you on Carter! He did everything he could to look out for the People! The Metric system wasn't the best move at the time ,but he was a caring man for Humanity! One Man can't do everything he wants, with this kind of system. They are a Gang now, not a Rational, for the People Governing Body, It's a team thing anymore, (a game) in my opinion !

    -- Posted by Jo on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 12:49 PM
  • Come on dr -- its me news, News Across. I forgot my previous password and so I had to create a new ID. I like it so far -- "TimeLord" its got a kick to it.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 4:18 PM
  • Jo,

    I am with you 100% on Carter. In my opinion, he was one of our top 5 Presidents.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 4:21 PM
  • BFG,

    You know what the problem is don't you? I have been hammering the morons on Fox News Comments so long now their craziness is rubbing off on

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 4:23 PM
  • I was going to ask TL what the previous password was. Welcome back News/TL. RR pops in occasionally but hasn't wised up any.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 5:18 PM
  • I meant ID, not password.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 5:30 PM
  • N/TL,

    What happened to Depp's dogs?

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 5:41 PM
  • Yeah rr is always good for an argument. He is smart and ever ready for the .

    Uh yeah, about Depp's dogs...ahem...the Minister who did that? We apologize for his stupidity. The conservatives are the majority -- albeit temporarily - in gov here.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 6:08 PM
  • dr, I gotta ask, any word lately from OKR?

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 6:10 PM
  • N/TL,

    I hate being the one to tell you but OKR recently passed away. You can see his obituary at this newspaper.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 6:16 PM
  • Wow... I am blown away by that news. Thanks dr.

    -- Posted by TimeLord on Wed, Sep 23, 2015, at 8:07 PM
  • You sure got me, too, News. Fun discussion - even though I definitely got really tied up in it.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Sep 24, 2015, at 12:25 PM
  • News,

    I thought you were barred from the Fox News forum.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Thu, Sep 24, 2015, at 5:28 PM
  • News Across: Good to see your health is good ! I was surprised when Okla stated he was really in bad shape, had no idea ! It's a sad thing ,we will all miss him. I was wondering about you. Glad you returned! Stay Healthy my friends ! I'm giving up the internet for now, It's been fun trying to figure out who the posters really are, and if I remembered them from the good old days,if you can call them that! Hey to everybody!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Sep 24, 2015, at 6:13 PM
  • Correct me if I mis-read that article BFG, but did I see it right that out of 18,000 law enforcement agencies there where 871 deaths up to this point?

    If that is correct than that points to the reason most believe no change is "needed". Yes it sucks 871 people have died and yes some of those 871 people were perfectly innocent and were murdered. Those cops should be in jail for life (and in gen pop not protective custody). But 871 dead is a drop in an ocean of police encounters. So is it an issue, yes of course it is an issue. But is it a major issue that most people feel requires immediate fixing, the answer is no for a lot of Americans. I know it is important to you, and by all means fight the power man. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just pointing out why a lot of the country isn't as fired up about it as you are and why change probably won't happen anytime soon.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Sep 28, 2015, at 2:53 PM
  • In England & Wales (pop. 56.9 mil) there were 55 police shootings in 24 years. If you multiply their population by around 6 to equal ours (316.1 mil.) you come up with around 305 and a half shootings. But that's for 24 YEARS. Divide by 24, you've got around 13 (actually 12.73) for each year.

    We've had 871, and the year isn't even over.

    That's too much - and it would be too much even if the killings matched the demographics of the total population.

    But they don't - which makes it even worse for people of color.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Sep 28, 2015, at 3:56 PM
  • Sorry, that wasn't clear. Our population is around 6 times that of England & Wales. So I multiplied the shootings there by the multiplier that brings their population up to ours to get the ~305.5 shootings they would have had in the last 24 years if they had been our size.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Sep 28, 2015, at 5:47 PM
  • Yes other countries are better than us, I get that guys. Still my original premise remains that while even one death would outrage you guys, 1,000 deaths doesn't outrage a lot of the country. Especially when most of those killed deserve every bullet. Yes there are innocents and those are sad and those cops should be jailed in gen pop, but for the none innocent ones they get no sympathy from me. Frankly a bullet was a lot better use of my tax money than food & shelter for them for years and years.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 29, 2015, at 8:08 AM
  • Wow, OS. I'm amazed that you say that.

    First - 1,000 deaths doesn't outrage people? At 871 for the end of Sept., going on at that rate would give us around 1160 for the year.

    After the 911 attacks, Americans were purported to be so outraged by the deaths of a little under 3,000 people that we launched two wars which have resulted in the deaths of around 5,300 US soldiers in combat (with many, many more wounded & many, many more non-combat deaths) & cost us trillions of dollars.

    My projected ~1160 police killings for this year is an annual number. If that was the rate since 911, it would add up to 16,420 deaths, 2002 - 2015 inclusive. THAT'S OVER 16,000 DEAD PEOPLE. I don't know how close that is to the actual number, but it's a reasonable guess.

    Why is that not outrageous?

    And regarding your statement that most of them deserved it - how can that claim be anything but your totally unsupported opinion? I remind you that there were no trials proving the dead people guilty of ANYTHING involved here.

    I can only think that many Americans DON'T think this is outrageous because they share your fact free opinion that the people killed deserved it.

    That's just wrong - and beyond outrageous to be absolutely horrifying!

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Sep 29, 2015, at 11:37 AM
  • Well first 9/11 was an attack by a foreign enemy. Think of it as I can beat up my brother all I want but you can't. Same type of scenario really. Plus it was thousands of people just going to work or going on a plane trip. Also it was all at once in a one big swoop. The mass murder always makes more news than individual deaths.

    Look at ISIS right now as an example, it's a small minority that really spends time thinking about ISIS. I'm sure they've done more, but all I know from the news is really the random person killed every so often who was already in their country. Not like they came to Kansas City & kidnapped those people & took them back. So for a lot of people, it's not a big deal. It's one person every so often and by being in that country already they knew the risk. Guess what, I have no plans to ever leave the US for any foreign vacation. That lower's my risk of being an ISIS casualty greatly.

    Of course the statement "most deserved it" is my opinion, this is an opinion page! I'm basing that off 871 dead and I sure haven't heard uproar over more than a few dozen. I'd be happy to place a very large wager that the vast majority of people killed by cops where multiple offender criminals. And yes, I feel multiple offender criminals do deserve to die because they are a drain on our money & frankly humanity in general. I mean what good is human being who no matter how many chances he/she gets they just keep repeating the same cycle of crime?

    The other reason a lot of people feel like me goes back to the putting yourself at risk. Yes BFG I understand that some people are flat murdered, those cops should then be shot themselves. But again the vast majority are at least in a position where police confrontation is legit (think Brown, he robbed & assaulted someone so the run in with the cops itself was legit). That is putting yourself in a situation that increases your risk for harm over if you had not committed a crime. Can disagree with that opinion and way of thinking all you want, just understand at least that the majority feels that way.

    For the public it's all about perception. A lot of people just will not feel sorry for someone like Brown (criminal who assaulted the officer) the same way they would for a completely innocent person killed for no reason at all. You can say that's horrible & not agree because a human is a human and it's not how you feel and that's fine. But you must also understand the reality that the majority does think that way. And yes saying the majority feels that way is an opinion since I haven't seen a 350 million person pole for proof, but i'll use the fact that nothing is changing as proof that I'm closer to the majority than your opinion is.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 29, 2015, at 1:44 PM
  • Yes, this is an opinion page - but opinion informed by facts has more weight than opinion pulled out of nothing - or manufactured.

    It's true, although probably the majority doesn't know it, that Ferguson's town government (and the government of a lot of other places) has been financed heavily by fines imposed on people for breaking laws - laws against all sorts of things. One man, according to page 3 of the Department of Justice Report on Ferguson, was charged with "Making a False Declaration" for giving his name as Mike to the policeman who pulled him out of his parked car, when it was actually Michael. He was arrested for that, along with a lot of other bogus charges (one was for not wearing a seat belt - in a PARKED CAR!). There was a bus driver in NY who was arrested for "Impeding Pedestrian Traffic" for standing on the sidewalk outside his house. Needless to say, both were black.

    And these things have consequences. The Ferguson man lost the job he had held for many years. The NY guy had years of court dates before he could get this ridiculous charge thrown out. Either of them might well have decided to run from that kind of justice. And that would have been called "Resisting Arrest". So are they now the "criminals" you think deserve to be shot? The opinion you cite would probably say yes, since it's opinion in the minds of people who can't be bothered to find out the truth. They see the men were arrested and assume they're criminals. That's trash, and we all ought to be outraged by it.

    Public opinion depends a lot on what people see on TV. And what's on TV is decided by people who own networks & TV stations. It's hard to find out what's really going on & most people settle for what the owner of the news outlet wants them to know.

    "Public opinion" is made up out of smoke & mirrors. What makes you think that public opinion is on your side since you haven't seen reports of different opinions? Where do you get your news?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Sep 30, 2015, at 12:30 PM
  • I get my news from TV and newspapers, you know where most people get their news from. Now if you'd like to go full blown conspiracy theory and just think the man is controlling everyone and brain washing everyone than how much weight should your opinion carry? Do you think the moon landing was a hoax, grassy knoll gunman & no planes hit the towers?

    I'm forming my opinions based of what I hear, see and read. CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews, Yahoo, MSN, KCStar, NY Times. Since I can't read the blind writing stuff I can't feel it so that's only senses I got to get my news.

    I apologize for not being specific enough in my earlier post, when I said multiple offender criminals I didn't mean jay walkers and speeding tickets. I meant the type of crimes that get you thrown in jail for multiple years each crime. I'm talking bout the lifer criminal. So no I would not want to shoot the guy without a seat belt & cross walk ticket man.

    Most people do know that governments get a lot of money from tickets. It's not like people think that seat belt or parking ticket goes to the police department weekly pizza fund. That's why there is always the joke of "must be end of the month, got to fill those quotas" from people when they see lots of cop cars on the highway.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 30, 2015, at 2:22 PM
  • It doesn't matter where you get your news, it's how you spin it.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Sep 30, 2015, at 7:07 PM
  • Yeah but I just used it to bet on sports :)

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Oct 16, 2015, at 3:11 PM
  • Got to be the Delorean.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Oct 19, 2015, at 9:07 AM
  • I just got back from a camping trip. What happened to BFG?

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Mon, Oct 19, 2015, at 10:41 AM
  • Maybe BFG is still camping!

    More than likely he decided to have all of his comments removed.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 5:08 PM
  • BFG = BigFatGuy or BigFatGuyReturns

    Apparently BFG is now a former poster and as Interested said, must have either requested his posts removed, or have been banned and had them removed.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Oct 21, 2015, at 12:17 PM
  • B.F.G. was the man who gave everyone the News on every shooting of Black People that has taken place for the last one and a half years! Relentlessly attacking all police Officers! Good and bad . Very angry Man, maybe with some cause! I don't think by over exposing the subject on (this forum to (boredom) ! Every life matters, and everyone knows this.

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Oct 22, 2015, at 8:50 PM
  • Please consider voting for the sales tax.

    Services cut would be hard to replace. If the city contracts for trash removal, it would have to be on a contract; and that may be over several years.

    Forget having your street cleared of snow as quickly...less manpower = longer times for clearing.

    Also, the city probably won't help fund MSDC, the Philharmonic Orchestra, the Community Chorus and the fireworks for 4th of July.

    There are talks of layoffs, it won't come via the police or fire (I hope), so that leaves Municipal Services.

    Pretty important stuff. It may have an effect on our Parks Department as well. Marshall has held the line on tax increases for decades, maybe we can give an extra 5 cents for every 10 dollars spent.

    Think about it, at any rate.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Oct 25, 2015, at 10:07 AM
  • Yes we can vote for the sales tax or we can start attracting jobs in the town that pay a living wage. It seems like every other town of a modest size around us has done so. Marshall has a very small tax base many people are on assistance and pay very little tax as is. The few people left in Marshall who are taxed are, "over taxed." imo If you attract living wage jobs, you attract the people who can afford to be taxed as well as provide jobs for the people here. It would also help Marshall to have more stores to shop in and places to eat. On another note this issue of the city being broke seems to have arisen out of thin air. Why has it been kept quiet. Why can't we utilize town hall meetings when issues like these arise? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there an issue a couple of years back with money at city hall being unaccounted for or missing?? Or was that just heresay?

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Oct 30, 2015, at 4:58 PM
  • Why not do both?

    Pass the tax and go for jobs?

    I do recall that the deficit budget has been discussed for about 2 years now.

    The various departments have not been getting new equipment and some retired positions have not been filled.

    Why do we need a town hall meeting when the council meetings are open to the public?

    Go there and ask your questions.

    Town hall meetings are for visiting politicians who don't get this way very often.

    Also, please tell me 2 towns our size within 200 miles of Marshall that have increased their economy through new jobs.

    I would be interested in discovering your source.

    I truly believe the tax will help all.

    You are correct that the people making less money pay more into the system than rich people, proportionately; that is the beauty of a sales tax. The more affluent will pay more than the less just due to the volume of the goods that they purchase; but all of that money goes into streets, police, fire and city improvements that everyone enjoys.

    I look forward to the 2 cities names and the businesses that have turned their towns around!

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Oct 30, 2015, at 11:26 PM
  • I said towns of a modest size. I'm speaking in terms of range, not specifically our size but I will start with a town that is smaller than Marshall, Booneville. They have the casino(produces money for the local economy) and they have probably the same amount of restaurants as we do. In terms of a town slightly bigger, Warrensburg is thriving economically also. They have the school, a manufacturing plant and a multitude of restaurants. Town hall meetings are for the issues not just for visiting politicians. I feel that town hall meetings give the community more of a chance to speak and more of an upper hand as opposed to a more controlled environment such as a city council meeting. I'm not saying the tax will not help. I'm all for it BUT it doesn't solve the larger problem. There is no growth or progress in our local economy at all. What is holding Marshall back??? It may appear that I am bashing Marshall but I am not. I just feel that things could change for the better in this town in more ways than one but I'm not sure how we as a town can go about it. So....I look forward to hearing your answer. What is holding Marshall back?

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Sat, Oct 31, 2015, at 12:02 AM
  • I am not sure that anything is holding Marshall back.

    I do not believe your answers on the nearby towns was to your point, but I won't argue it further.

    Marshall is an agricultural community with several good businesses and is going through the loss of the Hab Center, through no fault of the city administrators.

    We do not have the casino; but even if we had the river next to us, it is not a measure of success, as shown by Arrowrock still being small and Lexington, which has really developed some financial problems.

    The mom and pop restaurants don't seem to do well in Marshall, but the chains seem to do pretty well.

    Marshall could have a few more chain restaurants and food stores.

    However, our county population is relatively small and we are just far enough away from larger cities that commuting to work is tough. Most people will move to cities such as Boonville or Warrensburg if they need to commute to Columbia or Kansas City for full time jobs.

    We are somewhat a victim of our geography. If we were near the Lake of the Ozarks or right on the Missouri river, we might have more options.

    Have you ever gone to city hall and asked for a copy of the annual budget? I have, and it is not pretty.

    I know a lot of the city employees and that's why I wrote my original letter; I am worried about them, as well as their jobs, plus the potential decrease of services we may suffer soon, if the tax does not pass.

    As far as 'controlled' city council meetings go; I don't buy that.

    Other towns have very productive city council meetings, but people have to actually show up and talk at them.

    If you ask the mayor or city administrator for a town hall meeting though, I would bet anything that they would accommodate you. However, you or someone else ought to run it, or there will be the same argument; that THEY controlled it.

    Anyway, I am glad that you support the tax, and should it pass, we may all get to discuss how yet to bring jobs to Marshall and help people here make a better living. I really don't see a lot of flourishing in nearby towns, but I also wish them all the best in these tough times.

    I do believe that the first thing we can push for is an improvement to the Marshall Junction. If M0Dot were to get the intersection redone, as they promised years ago; some development could happen and hopefully, that spillover would benefit Marshall to some extent. That is the obvious place to start, in my opinion.

    Take care and I'll see you at your town hall meeting!

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Oct 31, 2015, at 7:30 AM
  • Hmmm. Didn't we appoint a totally unqualified city manager in Marshall just a few years ago? I say 'appoint' only because there was no selection process to fill the job. It was a plain and simple 'good old boy and girl' thing.

    Not ready to say that is the cause of these problems without further facts, just stating a correlation that, to me, should be considered.

    Interested, I fear you are a little off on your view of sales taxes as being a progressive tax. That is, a tax that is higher for the wealthy than the poor. From my reading on economic policy topics, sales taxes are considered to have a much greater impact on the poor than the rich.

    I feel that well off folks around here spend their money somewhere else. I know folks who spend most weekends in their condo's in Kansas City or their cabins at the lake, well off folks that drive to Johnson County, Kansas to get their hair done, and people who buy their cars in Sedalia, Columbia, or Kansas City. Then there is the restaurant thing, nobody eats out in Marshall, it's not cool enough.

    I also don't see the folks in Marshall that have amassed a big pile of wealth doing much in the way of opening new businesses or expanding those they already have. Many of our well off business owners have cashed in and sold out to others who don't live anywhere near here and don't care about Marshall.

    I totally agree that Marshall is an Ag Town. That has to be the biggest economic driver here. We do have ConAgra and Cargill, thank goodness, but one could consider food producers to be an extension of agriculture.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Oct 31, 2015, at 10:10 AM
  • I think you are confusing the Mayor and the City Manager positions, Bear.

    Marshall has what is referred to as a Council/Manager system. The Mayor is part of the City Council. The Council sets policy, writes ordinances, hires the City Manager, and approves budgets.

    In most cases, the City Manager is someone who has education and experience in Public Administration or Business Management.

    Typically, all departments work for the City Manager, therefore the City Manager is responsible for execution of the budgets, supervision of department heads, and daily administration of the city's business.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 2, 2015, at 8:12 AM
  • Thank you for that Smart Dog, I was never really sure what the actual duties of a city manager were. It certainly seems like a position that isn't needed in Marshall. Although I would hate to see anyone without a job. Whenever the current city manager retires it would probably be a good idea to vote on whether we want to keep this system or get rid of it.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Mon, Nov 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM
  • In reference to the newly passed sales tax, city manager and struggling Marshall discussion....I find it interesting that our city manager started in 2011 at 53K/year salary, and is now at 74K/year in 2015. That is a heck of an increase for any job, let alone the city manager of a small town. $21,000 pay increase in 4 years? How and why? In my opinion, with the condition our town is in, this is ridiculous. People need to start asking questions....

    -- Posted by tipofthearrow on Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 3:10 PM
  • Tipofthearrow, may I ask what you're reference is for the city managers salary? Not questioning your figures, but just want the source of your numbers so I can check it out. Also, anyone who would suggest that the city manager job be eliminated, obviously doesn't understand the role. The city manager is what I would call the operating officer for the city. The city manager pretty well is the highest executive of the city. And, I'll be totally honest, I'm glad we have a city manager. If the mayor, which is an elected position, and people can be easily persuaded to vote for someone, were in charge of operating the city, we would be in severe trouble with the current mayor. Having a mayor who can't distinguish between the truth and a lie, is dangerous. A mayor who doesn't know how to tell the truth doesn't make for a good business manager for the city.

    -- Posted by intrigued on Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 8:53 PM
  • Intrigued? I'm guessing that "anyone" that you refer to in your post is me and that is correct. No need to beat around the bush. NO I don't know everything about the role of a city manager. I suggest you take the time to read that link that Smart Dog provided outlining the various governing systems that towns around the country utilize. Nowhere in my post did I imply that we should just have a mayor as the head of the town. There are quite a few options as far as local governing systems go according to Smart Dog's link. If what Tipofthearrow is saying is true then maybe we should consider other options regarding our local governing system. To be honest, I find your lack of faith in the ability of the populace to choose an adequate leader alarming. Isn't democracy what America stands for? I'm not here to debate on who knows what. I know that something isn't working in Marshall and it's time we take a stand in this town to fix it. What is wrong with Marshall?? How can we fix it?

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 3:39 AM
  • The figures and information is free information available to the public. They came from the Saline County Courthouse. You can request a copy of her contract and salary information yourself. This is free information that is available to the public, yet nobody knows they have access to it. I'm telling you, we do. The citizens of Marshall need to act on this because in my opinion, this does not need to be going on. A $21,000 salary increase in 4 years is ridiculous. MAYBE if we as a town had something to show for it, but we can all look around our city and know this is not the case. We need to get like minded individuals together and figure out a way to improve our city ourselves. We cannot soley rely on our local government to do it. I don't suggest getting rid of the city manager position. I think having a city manager is valuable to a city. However, the city manager needs to be fully qualified and have public administration experience, and in my opinion, a college degree. Please go check out the records at the courthouse for yourself. It's all there. The rumor I heard was that if this last sales tax was not passed, our city manager was going to resign. This is why it was not advertised around town. No election signs, no discussion, just a simple postcard in the mail. Guess what passed? The sales tax. Why? Because that is what was planned... I agree that they city needs additional funds, but there needs to be someone else managing those funds. My next question is....WHO approved her salary increase? I think we all need to meet in person, at the city council meetings.

    -- Posted by tipofthearrow on Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 8:40 AM
  • I agree with Arrow. The Manager/Council System is generally thought of as the best form of municipal government for towns such as Marshall. Of course that assumes that the City Manager is actually someone with administrative and managerial skills who is a good decision maker.

    Regarding the sales tax increase, I am sure that the folks on the council and in the city managers office were counting on the extremely low voter turn out to work in their favor.

    If they could just get all city employees and their friends and families to vote yes, it would go a long way to passing the tax. Especially if all other voters came in 50% for and 50% against. City employees worrying about keeping their jobs, combined with votes from council members and their friends and families would get it passed. Worked like a charm.

    That would be why it was advantageous to keep this on the down low.

    Of course, I have no say as I live in the country and we don't get to vote on Marshall sales taxes, even though I buy most everything in Marshall. Can you say "Taxation without representation?"

    Also agree that Marshall's City Manager certainly seems paid extremely well for her background, experience, and the fact that the city seems to be dealing with managerial problems.

    But, hey, Marshall has been, and most likely will continue to be, a huge good old boys club, so what would you expect?

    When the current manager was selected and I asked a relative of mine, who is one of Marshall's "influential leaders," how that happened, I was told "Well, she's a really nice person."

    So, apparently that was the hiring criteria.

    How's that working out now, Marshall Taxpayers?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 1:24 PM
  • When I looked at the list of officials who signed off on the endorsement of the tax increase it struck me that I'd seen those names for a really long time. Nothing against any of them, they're all good people, but the old saying is usually true...You can't keep electing the same people and expect a different result.

    I also agree that the good ol boy system seems to be alive and well here, but I'm assuming that's the case in most towns this spite of however counterproductive it may be.

    -- Posted by outsider on Fri, Nov 6, 2015, at 3:48 PM
  • The Tax Increase was advertised in the newspaper- mailers- and flyers; placed at several local business. The tax was passed because those that pay attention to what's going on within the City voted in favor.

    -- Posted by roy_sims2002 on Tue, Nov 10, 2015, at 11:56 AM
  • Exactly!

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Nov 10, 2015, at 12:45 PM
  • By the way; thank you to all of our veterans, past and present!

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Wed, Nov 11, 2015, at 12:08 AM
  • interested Too: Thank you !

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Nov 16, 2015, at 12:35 PM
  • I am not very pleased that the Public Library was closed for Black Friday! The sign on the door actually said that. I have no problem with it being closed as an extension of Thanksgiving; but to actually announce closure for a symbol of greed is amazing. Perhaps they will rethink that for next year.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Nov 27, 2015, at 7:39 PM
  • Does anyone know what the MSDC has done for the community? They take tax money every year and I haven't been able to find one person to give me a reason for those donations?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Dec 10, 2015, at 3:33 PM
  • My understanding is that MSDC is primarily funded by Marshall MMU and the local banks. I don't believe there is any tax that directly supports their efforts.

    I could, however, be wrong about that as I am not intimately familiar with how they get financed these days. I reckon maybe they do get some of the tourism tax.

    The history of MSDC is somewhat unusual, however, and I gave a brief account of that some years back. Let's just say that an individual in Marshall made out like a bandit when the group was formed to create the Marshall Industrial Park.

    I think the original thought was based on seeing how Sedalia has prospered and grown due to their success in bringing in manufacturers and other big employers over the past few decades. One should keep in mind though that companies don't build new factories during times of economic collapse or contraction.

    And I would also agree that it does sort of seem like an organization in need of a purpose. It doesn't appear that any new jobs or businesses have been brought in as a result of their efforts. I reckon it would be up to the groups financing their efforts to question what they are getting for their investment.

    On the other hand, however, we should be grateful that MSDC lost out to Moberly on the Mamtek sweetener plant con job.

    Just Google "Moberly MO, Mamtek" for an entire days reading on the topic.

    So, hey, there's an example of how MSDC's loss probably prevented Marshall from loosing $31 Million and some pretty severe embarrassment.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Dec 11, 2015, at 8:17 AM
  • No they don't get direct tax revenue. However, we pay for the utilities which donates thousands. Our utility rates have increased the last few years, if you take away those thousands they are giving away for nothing to the MSDC than maybe our rates would not be effected as drastically.

    Without the MSDC would that company would have chosen Moberly anyway, so even the one benefit they've done really would have been the same benefit if they hadn't been wasted thousands of dollars. The fact that they were even trying to bring them here shows the incompetence.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Dec 11, 2015, at 9:40 AM
  • The City of Marshall and the Saline County Commission also contribute to MSDC. That is tax money. Whether it has been well spent is someone else's decision. I think Marshall should work toward being a port authority and also get everyone on board to develop the Marshall Junction intersection.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Dec 12, 2015, at 3:53 PM
  • Thanks Interest! So yes the MSDC does get our tax dollars and literally has done NOTHING with it! Mr. Moore, while a nice guy, is a horrible person to run the show as well. He waste more time with tourism and funds than anyone in the jobs at the Chamber (another wasted group) and MSDC.

    I would love to see this disbanded immediately and the tax money spent going to more appropriate things that actually assist the community instead of draining it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Dec 14, 2015, at 9:12 AM
  • C'mon, you guys. Let's be positive here.

    At least MSDC has pried some of that moldy old money out of those privately owned banks, and MMU's big pile of cash, and created jobs for Mr. Moore and his staff. I really don't know how many folks actually work for MSDC, but I think there is a secretary as well, isn't there?

    So, two jobs created then?

    That's better than zero.

    Being as how most of the major employers in Marshall have cut their head count recently, I hope everyone is aware that the future in Marshall is not so bright right now.

    Ag incomes are predicted to be about 30% to 40% lower in the next couple of years as well. I would say that will have a noticeable impact on the local economy.

    The next recession is well on it's way nationally also.

    So any of you public institutions want to float out some more tax increases for working folks along with this? We seem to love to vote yes for those around here in spite of overwhelming evidence that it's not a good idea in a struggling economy.

    But, hey, as long as school administrators are raking in their 6-figure salaries and our local politicians all get their rewards, it's all good, right?

    Wait, this was supposed to be a positive post, wasn't it? Yikes, I reckon I really am a grouchy old man. I can't seem to stay on the sunny side of the street anymore.

    Anybody feeling all that good about the future of anything right now? Seems hard to do when, from my view, the inmates are running the asylum at most all levels in America these days.

    Intelligence, maturity, logic, reason, patience, analysis, and planning all seem to be taboo and have been replaced with bravado, truthiness, greed, narcissism, nepotism, xenophobia, racism, and instant gratification at most all levels of our society.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Dec 15, 2015, at 8:55 AM
  • So two people getting paid out of the pockets of tax payers to do absolutely nothing is a good thing now SD? Don't we already have enough government people in this town getting paid to do nothing?

    I am perfectly happy with our future SD. Gas prices are down, weather is good, economy has settled down. The Royals won the WS, the Chiefs are looking playoff bound and there are some awesome movies coming out in the next year. Marshall while not expanding is holding fairly strong at our current level. I think as we start to get some new blood in the systems of town that growth is coming in the next 10 to 15 years. The new blood will start trimming the fat of these old school systems like the MSDC & Chamber. I think I will enjoy living in Marshall for a very long time to come.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Dec 15, 2015, at 10:01 AM
  • I reckon I'm going to have to start labeling my sarcastic comments so they are more easily identifiable.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Dec 15, 2015, at 1:28 PM
  • Really MDN?? NOTHING about the large computer purchase made at Walmart this weekend that is being investigated by the FBI? This is definitely news worthy. C'mon. Why must I always turn to other news sources to find out things happening in my town?

    -- Posted by born-n-raised on Wed, Dec 16, 2015, at 1:31 PM
    Response by Sarah Reed:
    We printed information in today's newspaper. It looks like it hadn't yet been uploaded to the website, but should appear now. Thank you.
  • Why do some articles have an option to leave a comment, and others do not?

    -- Posted by tipofthearrow on Fri, Dec 18, 2015, at 7:53 AM
    Response by Sarah Reed:
    MDN has historically disabled comments to articles regarding court reports, charges or other law enforcement/legal issues unless a judgment has been made. If there is a specific article you are wondering about, let me know and we can clarify.
  • Cry a river CB.

    Maybe if everyone in the world took responsibility for their own actions instead of always looking for someone to blame this world would be a better place.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Dec 18, 2015, at 9:41 AM
  • Hey everyone let's give a big hearty welcome back to "Bigfatguyreturns" under his new pen name "Coldbeerbear."

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Dec 20, 2015, at 12:11 PM
  • Hey CB, please show me where anywhere in the constitution it is stated that the government's job is to be Robin Hood & take from the rich to give to the poor? Pretty sure no where are your two rules actually listed. And since you are so concerned with equal pay, I'm assuming you give half your paycheck every month to a stranger so you can be equal with him right?

    Your right, the crazy ignorant killers who wear cop uniforms but kill for fun should take responsibility. They should be convicted & shot right outside the coutroom for death penalty to save tax dollars from housing them for decades. Probably the same thing the thug criminals who attack cops or commit crimes and run away should take. But they never do, instead all we see is pictures of them in graduation outfits holding bibles trying to push them off as angels who didn't deserve it. When really it's natural selection and saved tax payer dollars from housing them for most of their lives.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Dec 21, 2015, at 8:16 AM
  • Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congrass shall have the Power to lay & collect taxes, duties, imposts & excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense & general welfare of the United States; but all duties, impost, & excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

    This says the government can take your $ to pay back the government debt, defense of the country & general welfare. Funny how it never mentions taxes should be equal despite what everyone thinks.

    Direct CB Quote: "Basically as I see it the two main jobs they have are firstly to pool funding for the care of the poor and after that need is met then they can think about funding our military protection".

    First no where does it say anything about pooling money for the poor. It states general welfare, which goes towards everything! That means roads, president vacation, money manufacturing, government employee pay checks as well as welfare & Medicaid type government aid. It's not just to pool peoples extra money for poor.

    Secondly, the actually document states the order of importance of how this $ is paid. Debt is 1st, Defense is 2nd & general welfare gets what's left over. That's not interpretation, that's reading the words and going with what they said. If you want to interpret, either join a religion or join the Supreme Court.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Dec 22, 2015, at 8:47 AM
  • Of course they would help the general welfare, in theory. In theory giving every citizen a million dollar check on January 1st would help the general welfare of the country too.

    The problem with those theories is there is no realistic solution to make them a reality. No just saying "spread the wealth" is not a realistic idea unless you can say how'd you do it. Remember, the general welfare doesn't just mean the poor, it means everyone in the country. Hurting one to help another is the risk/reward that has to be calculated.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Dec 22, 2015, at 1:15 PM
  • News across, hope all of your family enjoy the Holidays! Also thinking of Oklahoma and his. TO all my friends be happy, with good health! Lets all hope for a better America???

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Dec 24, 2015, at 7:59 PM
  • I'm curious what everyone who comments thinks of our newly formed group of candidates for Marshall City Council. I have to say that at least they are concerned enough to run for office, no doubt a thankless, paycheck-less job.

    As a rural resident, I have no say in Marshall City Government, but fear that this is just another group attempting to justify more tax increases for "growth."

    Seems that folks have finally realized that growth is required to fund things like new schools. I hope they also understand that growth is the end result of net positive economic gains.

    The means to attain this gain is to find avenues to bring in money from outside the community, not just continue to swap the money that is already here.

    Population growth without economic growth just means the economy that is here is spread thinner.

    Marshall has taken a huge hit over the last decade or so with the slow closing of the Hab Center. Apparently, the community lost the political battle over where those services were to come from in the future.

    The clients now are served by for-profit companies who will pay lower wages and funnel a profit off to the business owners who most likely don't reside it this area.

    The economic impact of that will be hard to repair.

    Advice to those who are pulling the strings, tax increases and growth in budgets of publicly funded entities won't get it done.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Dec 28, 2015, at 10:00 AM
  • Hey CB, I don't have to give you any ways to fix or answers to problems I'm not complaining about. I don't have a problem with what we do to oil companies. Everything you touch & do has oil involved. If oil shut down our world would shut down. And with gas down to $1.64, I frankly am perfectly fine with the oil industry.

    There has been and always will be homeless poor people. I'm sorry to be blunt with reality but that's just the way it is. There is no way to solve the problem that is actually realistic. Now my solution would be an application process to have kids & anyone getting pregnant outside of that process would require an immediate abortion. Now that is completely unrealistic, so why would I spend anymore time on it?

    As to why are their kids like that, you won't like the answer. It's really not a complicated answer. The answer is, stuff happens. I don't lose sleep on it. I take care of my family and am teaching my children well so that they don't have to worry about it either. There are homeless in every country on Earth. Some people had string of bad luck & really isn't there fault. A lot have chosen to live homeless rather than give up their vices. There will always be homeless, you can't save everyone. Not the Hallmark movie answer you want CB, but ya know the real world isn't a Hallmark movie.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Dec 28, 2015, at 10:30 AM
  • Subsidy: a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

    Gas is $1.64, I'm happy.

    What exactly do you have issue with in terms of my comments on addiction? Let me guess, you would like to make excuses for addicts and blame someone other than them & how they'd be so much better with help? I may be wrong, just taking a shot in the dark. Enjoy the Colorado trip, drive careful to airport or out there!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Dec 28, 2015, at 2:51 PM
  • You are correct CB, I don't have any problem with those. For the kids & soldiers it sucks but that's just a part of life. You can't save everyone and no matter what rules you make people will always slip through.

    As for the addicts who are "sick". They made their choice. If you chose to get cancer, I'd say the same thing. An addict chose to stick that needle in their arm or drink that booze. And unlike cancer or aids, there is a full proof cure to the disease of addiction STOP DOING IT! It's a very simple solution. Now is it super easy, no it's not all the time. There are withdrawals and you need will power to not go back. But I'm pretty sure if you told a cancer patient all they had to do was stop taking cancer & don't take it again, they'd happily sign on for that over what they have to do to simply try to live longer (no cure). So no I don't feel even the smallest ounce of sympathy for addicts of anything. They made a choice to start. They can make a choice to stop. If they choose not to, that's on them.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Dec 29, 2015, at 1:51 PM
  • That's an awesome thing in Buffalo. Very well done by them. Very small sample size, but it's a great story.

    So what part of my take would doctors disagree with? Those people weren't addicted until they did the drug in the first place. So it was their choice. They can choose to stop doing those drugs. Tens of millions of people have stopped doing their drug of choice. It's not easy, but it's a disease with a very obvious cure. Cancer, AIDS and things like that are diseases with no cure and horrible treatments that can only help you live longer than should. So please tell me what part of any of those statements would be disagreed with?

    Comparing a disease that people don't ask for in anyway and has no cure for, to a "disease" that people willingly bring into their bodies that has a very obvious cure is well below your intelligence level. Unless you're an addict or have family that's an addict so you're trying to excuse it away. Being an addict maybe a disease, but it's not nearly on the same level as cancer or other real diseases. If you disagree, next time you see a cancer patient please tell them how if they just stopped having cancer they'd be cured.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Dec 31, 2015, at 8:15 AM
  • Again, what part don't you agree with CB? Like what did I say that is factually incorrect that I disagree with thousands of peer reviewed articles and doctors?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Dec 31, 2015, at 2:04 PM
  • Really is hard to just answer a question cb. What don't u agree with?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Dec 31, 2015, at 7:46 PM
  • So for like the 5th time i'll ask what exactly do you think I'm way off base with on the addiction? Yes I read that article, people cause their addiction, people can stop doing what their addicted too even though it's hard. Pretty sure that was my statement from the get go so by all means feel free to let me know what I'm wrong or keep avoiding the question.

    Jury of their pears agreed it wasn't murder. I don't think it was murder either. Now should they face some suspension or possibly financial penalties for it yes I say so because it was a mistake. But a mistake is a lot different than murder. You don't yell bomb on a plane and you don't point guns at cops (real or not). Cops saw gun and reacted. Their reaction turned out to be the wrong one, but that is a lot different than murder.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jan 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM
  • Ah the classic, your wrong because your just wrong defense. That's cool, you keep defending drug addicts. Remind me the next time there is a fundraising for a "help the meth addicts" medical research. Also if you (or a family member) ever get mugged or injured by a drug addict, remember it's not his fault, it's a disease! Punishing him would be no different than punishing a 5 year old for having cancer. So just let that addict keep fighting the good fight no matter how many he injures, kills or robs. God bless that addict for living his life despite his horrible disease!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jan 5, 2016, at 8:33 AM
  • Can anyone remember the winner of the Millions of Dollar lotto a few years back in Marshall, and who it was? Thanks!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Jan 9, 2016, at 9:27 PM
  • A remember the kid winning, he was like under 25 if I remember right. But I can't remember his name.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jan 11, 2016, at 8:20 AM
  • Jake Shaw. Worked at BreakTime on College St.

    -- Posted by bmsowls on Mon, Jan 11, 2016, at 2:19 PM
  • Sorry.. Chris Shaw

    -- Posted by bmsowls on Mon, Jan 11, 2016, at 2:21 PM
  • bmsowl:: thanks for the Name, LUCKY MAN!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Jan 12, 2016, at 7:19 PM
  • Another article on MSDC that doesn't mention one thing they've done for the community. And of course Latimer is right in line with them which should really tell you all you need to know. I think it's time to save the tax payers a few thousand bucks and disband this pointless club. If these people want to just have a club meeting to drink coffee & BS than join the McDonalds breakfast club or Lions but don't waste our money!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jan 15, 2016, at 8:31 AM
  • C'mon Oldschool, they picked a couple of new board members, a realtor and a farmer.

    Maybe they will have some effect. Who knows?

    I do find it ironic that it was a realtor that started MSDC in the first place, and then sold it some grossly overpriced farm land that he happened to own to create the Marshall-Saline Industrial Park.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jan 15, 2016, at 3:14 PM
  • Just to be clear, the Navy was operating world wide long before Obama, and will continue to do so after another President is elected, I suspect.

    And speaking of the American addiction to blaming Obama and Obamacare for everything, I read an interesting story recently.

    Seems there was a company who decided to automatically enroll all employees in their 401K program at the maximum amount of 6%. If employees wished to not participate they had to create an online account with the 401K provider and then fill in forms online to opt out withing a two week time frame. Optionally they could call a toll-free number during business hours over that same two week period.

    Naturally, many problems occurred with this. What if the employee has no computer or internet access? What about employees working during the hours the phone number is operating? What if the employee doesn't have a phone?

    Additionally, employees could not opt out by any other method. Going to Human Resources at the workplace to opt out was not allowed. Keep in mind the company has hundreds of employees.

    It doesn't take a genius to determine that there were problems. First paychecks of the year come out and there are issues galore.

    When employees naturally complained to management about this situation guess where the finger was pointed?

    Yep, "Obamacare has really screwed up everything. We need a new president in there that will get this stuff cleaned up."

    That was the response. No kidding.

    Now if anyone can explain to me what the Affordable Care Act has to do with your 401K savings plan, I'd love to hear it.

    Also, one must understand the employers motivation in the first place. It is a rule with 401K's that a companies officers, President, VP's, etc. can't contribute a higher percentage of their income to their personal 401K than the average of all the workforce.

    Therefore, company management has an incentive to get employees to contribute at the highest rate possible so that they, the owners or directors, can contribute a larger portion of their significantly higher salaries.

    So the motivation to automatically enroll the workforce for the maximum amount, then make a game of reducing that amount or opting out, is pretty clear to those who understand the system.

    But to then blame it on Obama. That, right there, is a uniquely Republican thing to do.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Jan 16, 2016, at 8:46 AM
  • Oops. That long winded diatribe was intended for the Politics blog.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Jan 18, 2016, at 9:06 AM
  • Smartdog, those employees were allowed to use company computers to do this 401k work or could use company phones during business hours. So yes they had at least 8 hours a day for two weeks to get this done. So yes people did have plenty of time to opt out of this program if they chose too, if they got lazy or forgot that's on them.

    That being said, I do agree that it's a stupid program! I don't like anything being forced on me out of the blue. I would recommend those people have a 401k, but I understand that's not always feasible, I know it wasn't for me for a time. Just like it's not feasible for me now to have health insurance. The only difference is at least that company had an out, I'm stuck paying a $700 tax fee for no reason what so ever.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jan 19, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • Changing the subject but...What about our water? Are they ever going to get it to a safe level? Look how long we have gotten letters in with our water bill. Marshall used to have drinkable water. What is the next step because it obviously is not getting any better. We will be like Flint, Michigan next.

    -- Posted by Pasta on Wed, Jan 27, 2016, at 4:29 PM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    Marshall Municipal Utilities is in the process of organizing construction for a new multimillion dollar water decontamination system.
  • Been drinking Marshall water for 30 years and never had any problems with it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jan 28, 2016, at 9:04 AM
  • Haven't been sick for over 20 years so yeah id say I'm good with the water. Unless being healthy is a side effect, at which point more should drink it!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jan 28, 2016, at 8:39 PM
  • Yes teacher I'm well aware. Not stating there aren't improvements that can be made. I was simply commenting off Pasta's claims that is unsafe or undrinkable, which at this time are both false claims. It is very drinkable, and is safe to drink. Is it 100% safe, no public water will ever be 100% safe. But I've never heard of anyone dying or suing the city because the water killed them or made them sick.

    I'd say that's a pretty good track record. And now they appear to be proactive in upgrades before they are necessary.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jan 29, 2016, at 1:10 PM
  • I think the ObamaCare stuff interrupted it. Seems like that Oregon thing is finally coming to an end soon. Seemed like pretty pointless and stupid endeavor to me.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jan 29, 2016, at 3:16 PM
  • You are overreacting purely because of the isolated Flint story. Just cause something happened one place does not mean it will for sure happen in another place Marshalls water taste the same & i perfectly healthy to drink. If u disagree than start boiling your water before drinking anything or taking showers or brushing your teeth. Or invest in lots of bottled water :)!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jan 29, 2016, at 5:13 PM
  • Taste is just a matter of opinion. Same people like taste some don't, doesn't mean anything about the safety. My wife also grew up on well water & doesn't like any tap water. Only tap water I've ever had I just didnt like was in Warrensburg.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sat, Jan 30, 2016, at 9:58 AM
  • First off he should be at worst fired from his job. You can't accidently paralyze someone and get to keep a job. I would be ok with some criminal negligence for shooting an unarmed man. But I wouldn't do anything in terms of major jail time. I think it was an accident. The shot came mid stride which no one is ever trained to shoot while walking. If he shot on purpose he'd have stopped then shot, so he drew his gun my guess to say "freeze" and accidently pulled the trigger.

    Now why was he pointing the gun & saying freeze in the first place? Because the driver decided to run from the cops. So the cop is in high speed chase with someone running, then right after the wreck they are quickly getting out of the car, if I'm a cop the first thing I think is he's gonna run. So you try to get him to not run. So up until the gun went off I have no issue with anything the cop did.

    Again, just one time CB I'd love for you to give me one of these cop shootings that involved someone not resisting arrest or who is listening and following every direction they are given. All about putting yourself in that position. Yes it is the cops fault he shot. But had the driver just pulled over, took his punishment and not made the situation worse his wife would be alive & he'd be walking. As it is he CHOSE to run from the cops & put himself & his wife in the position for something bad to happen.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Feb 1, 2016, at 1:48 PM
  • Is it really law you can't shoot a criminal for fleeing? I mean ifTed Bundy is running away u mean a cop can't shoot h to stop him? I hate that rule if true, I really don't know.

    You're right, cops should be well trained & should be great at gun safety. But cops are humans, **** is gonna happen. It sucks, wish it never did but as long as humans have the job its gonna happen. That idiot crook gets no sympathy from me. Cop should be fired & maybe more but not paying bills or long jail time.

    Now u create a robot to be the cops, that will solve all the issues with cops. But long as there are humans, well mistakes will be made.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Feb 1, 2016, at 10:28 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Feb 2, 2016, at 3:54 AM
  • I'd like to suggest that Oldschool spend a day watching all those videos to the right of the screen on your attached link, EiEiO.

    We don't just have a problem with police shootings, we have a problem with police thinking, training, and tactics.

    Kicking in doors in the middle of the night and shooting people that are half asleep is common these days, as well as their participation in high speed chases, which has been banned in most communities. Then there's the gross over-reaction to rude comments and petty crime.

    Police beatings, abuse of folks who are not committing a crime, and just general bullying of the public has become far too common. Beating someone up for shoplifting, speeding, or making a smart-*** remark should not be a daily thing in my opinion.

    When we allow the police to get away with those sorts of non-lethal actions, then it makes shootings all the more likely as well.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Feb 2, 2016, at 8:09 AM
  • I've watched plenty of those videos. I guess you just care more for criminals than me. Not sure if that's because you are criminals or have family & friends who are or what. I was raised to respect authority. If a cop pulls me over, I don't care if it's right or wrong, I say yes sir or ma'am and do whatever they say. I may politely question if I don't agree but that's as far as it goes.

    If you choose to run away, or scream & complain or try to act tough, than frankly your asking for it. Yes it's the cops faults for reacting poorly & they should face small punishments. But if your a criminal or if you are poking the bear, don't expect me to be surprised or feel sorry for you if the bear kicks your butt.

    Now what none of you show video of is someone completely cooperating and not doing one single thing wrong getting beat or killed. Those people I'd feel sorry for and would call for those cops to get death penalty. But if a criminal gets beat up for being a criminal, well that comes with the territory.

    You want no human emotion or poor reactions in 100% of cases, than you need to figure out how to make robots that can be cops. As long as humans are cops, than things like this will happen on occasion. It's still the over whelming minority. There are a million police interactions every single day & the vast majority go smoothly.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 2, 2016, at 8:31 AM
  • Funny thing, Oldschool. I thought the premise of our justice system is that one is innocent until proven guilty.

    So you are supportive of the idea that cops can assume the role of judge and jury and decide who is a criminal and who is not without the benefit of due process, and then abuse away. These folks are not criminals at this point in their interaction with police, some might be suspects, but that's it.

    Nice comments about other posters being criminals themselves as well. It's a nice window into your mind. Name calling always makes one sound intelligent and insightful.

    Keep in mind that there are many degrees of criminality. So you think it's ok to choke a guy to death for selling loose cigarettes on the streets of New York? Or get your door kicked in and shot by police for suspicion of selling drugs due to an anonymous tip to an 800 number and no other evidence? Or perhaps a woman beat up by a cop and arrested for complaining about a body pat down following a traffic stop for coasting through a stop sign?

    All of these things and more are happening, repeatedly, right here in the land of the free.

    Just because I am a law abiding citizen doesn't mean I am willing to toss due process of law aside. Once we do that, law enforcement and the justice system lose all credibility and society degenerates to every man for himself. The more these things happen, the harder it is to tell the bad guys from the good guys.

    I will freely admit that we have a pretty good police force locally. Other than the unwarranted pat-downs of cute girls, the spouse abuse, and some substance abuse issues by local officers, we seem to have decent local law enforcement. I don't have much interaction with Marshall Police, and have rarely dealt with the Sheriff's department but have found them to be polite and professional. I reckon we are fairly lucky to be living where we do. I'm not so sure our community is completely representative of the whole country however.

    You might try looking outside of your own box once in a while. I can see where you might think that if it doesn't affect you then it doesn't matter. Erosion of confidence in law enforcement and judicial process is a bad thing for our society. That's a plain fact that you should care about regardless of your holier than thou attitude toward everything.

    It would be interesting to see your reaction if it becomes a friend, relative, or one of your kids that suffers police over-reach. Do you really think that a citizen should have to bow down and submit to the whims of any police officer? If a bully cop wants to make you kneel at his feet, would you do it? If he wants to pat down your wife for kicks, do you still maintain that "yes, sir" attitude?

    Again, all things that happen regularly in America.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Feb 2, 2016, at 1:16 PM
  • Ok, if you want to go with the innocent until proven guilty logic, then why are you being the judge & jury for these officers? They haven't had due process. And even when they do have due process (Officer Wilson) & are found innocent they still get slammed. So it works both ways there guys, if that's how you want to play it.

    I don't believe I ever called anyone a criminal. I believe I stated you all may be criminals, or have criminals in your friends or family which is why you side with criminals first. And yes, resisting arrest is a crime, so if you run or don't follow police instructions that means you are a criminal.

    As for my reaction, I would tell any of family to always follow police orders. If a cop says kneel, **** right you kneel. If cop gets grabby than deal with it at the time. Now will I drive straight to PD & file complaint, yes I would. But what good would it do to argue with the cop at the moment? I mean really, what good comes out of not following orders besides trying to be a big man? You have the possibility of getting arrested, getting hurt, name ruined w/arrest record & mug shot, and lose sympathy of others because they see mugshot & arrest first.

    So while you're going through all that, I'm driving away a free man, able to file a complaint & have no scar on my name because I did everything by the book. Cop can't say I resisted or did anything wrong at that point which puts complete blame on the cop.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 3, 2016, at 9:08 AM
  • Well in regards to that man, none of my family would have been his victim. For one, all my family are white and his victims were all black. For two, none of my family has criminal backgrounds that would be cause for him to try to blackmail them in the first place. So while that was a good attempt, you picked the wrong cop to try to prove your point.

    And yes, I say follow orders until actual physical safety is at risk. I mean if a cop is trying to rip your clothes off or just start beating you when you did nothing wrong & had been cooperating than yes I'd say protect yourself. I wouldn't tell anyone to just lay back & be raped or get their skull bashed in whether it was a cop or anyone else. But at that point you're not really following orders anymore, you're just trying to save your life, there is a difference.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 3, 2016, at 11:48 AM
  • Funny how you start that phrase with "Socialist" considering that's what most of you in this chat room want this country to be going forward. Next time you talk about equal income & all this government assistance, make sure you remember that yourself.

    So what exactly does that phrase have to do with following police instructions so you keep yourself out of bad situations? Or is it just the only quote from someone you know since you seem to use it wrong frequently?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Feb 4, 2016, at 8:04 AM
  • Ok CB, I am perfectly fine with you "innocent until proven guilty" theory. Then why are you presuming all these officers guilty before they are found guilty? I mean if a cop can't know someone is guilty of a crime based on what he saw than why can you?

    I'm sorry you couldn't have gotten a good Marshall education that taught you to look at all sides of a coin instead of just how you want the world to be in your fantasy land.

    Last time I checked we aren't allowing anyone to abuse anyone. It's not like we've sent out laws saying "cops are allowed to beat anyone they believe is a criminal". Cops have rules. If they are deemed to have broken those rules than they are punished. Just like every citizen in the US, if you're found convicted you get punished, if you're found innocent you go free. Do some cops get off that should have been punished, yes they do. Do some normal people get off that should have been punished, yes they do.

    If you look at cops and believe that society just sits back and allows them to beat PEOPLE, than I guess we just sit back and allow gangs to kill each other. I guess we just sit back & allow regular people to rape each other. Cause not every one of those PEOPLE go to jail either, even if they should. So I guess we have a lot of PEOPLE, according to your poor education, that we allow to abuse other PEOPLE. And that's not even mentioning the abuses of people over the entire 239 year history of this country. Exactly how long are you expecting it to take for this fire to spread to me, cause after 239 years, I'm still not even seeing smoke in my life.

    Now that being said I do completely understand your point. And that quote, was a good quote describing the rise of Hitler & the Holocaust. But I think that is a very short sited "end of days" way to look at the world. There have been many times in this country 100 times worse than what we are in now. There has been more corruption, more police brutality, more racism and just more horrible human behavior in years past than anything we can even imagine today. Yet not only did society not crumble, as you seem to think we are headed towards, but it advanced & got better to where we are today. That's why I continue to say, are they perfect today? Of course not. Could we get better, sure we could. But it needs to be in perspective of a bigger picture, not just looking through one window. You can't fix the few by hurting the many. You can't change 1 rule that breaks 10 others. I'm not saying things can't be fixed, I'm just saying you have to look at the big picture first to see how to fix the problem correctly without making 100 new problems in your wake.

    It's like getting a kids playhouse and just starting to slap pieces together without following the directions. Sure you get it up, but you got 30 pieces left over & it falls down the first time your kid steps on it. So great, you put it together & it looked pretty for 5 seconds. But what did you really do besides hurt your kid & probably break the set so it won't even go back together the right way now.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Feb 4, 2016, at 11:54 AM
  • Old School: Tell me what isn't Socialistic in this Country? This Country was built on Socialism! That's what we have right now. In all our society ! Name a few things that aren't? What do the Politicians mean when they are against Socialism ? There would be nothing , This Country would not survive without Socialism ?

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Feb 4, 2016, at 5:25 PM
  • Well government doesn't own & run major industries Jo. I also own my private property. That's two strikes against socialism right there.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Feb 4, 2016, at 5:47 PM
  • Yes I said your theory, because you don't practice what you preach. How you go about innocent/guilt isn't the point. Of the fundamental right you speak of. If you want to hold the hard line of innocent until proven guilty, than stick to that hard line, don't say it's different in this case or that case. If you say it's different, than it's not a fundamental right, it's a case by case basis.

    Now personally I am fine with a case by case basis. And I actually like your analogy of the animal & person. But that too is on a case by case basis. Did you get to close by pure accident? Where you openly mocking the bear? Where you poking the bear? Where you hitting the bear? Did you just jump in the middle of the bears pen?

    Reaction of the bear same thing, did bear just smack or push you to keep away? Did he claw you? Did he rip an arm off? Did you grab you & be the aggresser? Did he kill you?

    Any combination of those things can have a different result in how it's perceived & punished. Thus why I prefer to look at things as we do in most real life situations, on a case by case basis.

    What you call "Victim Blaming" I simply say is pointing out all the facts. It's like when you're a kid and your parents spanked you butt until you couldn't sit down. Now it's your parents fault your butt hurts because they are the ones who hit you. But the fact is if you had done as they asked, they wouldn't have spanked you. So while it's their fault the actual physical action occurred, it's a good lesson to learn from for next time that you did have the control to avoid that situation if you so chose too.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 5, 2016, at 2:18 PM
  • By the way if I wasn't in this group being devils advocate & giving everyone the other side of things, how boring would this be? I mean nobody else even post on here, and it's hard to have any discussions on a topic when everyone agrees anyway :).

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 5, 2016, at 2:26 PM
  • Old School: I think you're confusing extreme Communism, with Socialism!

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Feb 5, 2016, at 3:19 PM
  • When was last time u actually looked up the definition of socialism? Cause I did first, then found my points. Not saying there aren't some things run like socialism, but not nearly as much as u seem to think.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 5, 2016, at 5:46 PM
  • There has been some types of Socialism in the U.S.A since the industrial revolution and before! The unions were formed to protect the workers, Social Security, Roosevelt was a Socialist,( to an extent) several of the Presidents were Socialist! The greatest things happened during that time, for the workers, the Country, for the World! The Governments are the only entity big enough to handle the catastrophes people go through in the Country! So now we have a Republican Capital & Ideology that wants your Taxes for nothing but Wars & give to other Countries! To hell with Flint Michigan ! To hell with Katrina victims! This Republican Brand has to go ! Or we will have another crisis that will take this Country under ! You've seen all these fools in their Debates! There is nothing from those People that makes since, NOTHING!! Cleanout the Congress & Senate! There is so much cleaning to do but we can do it if everyone will vote!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sat, Feb 6, 2016, at 3:50 PM
  • OH so now there are multiple types of socialism, not what your original comment said. Good job turning adjusting your statement to fit what you want.

    Um you have a Democratic President right now not helping Flint, so not sure why you use that to bash Republicans? A Democratic President isn't going to change anything when it comes to that. I've actually watched the debates this year, really first time in my life. You do realize the Dems sound just as full of #*(@ as the Republicans right? I mean Hillary screams psycho & Sanders is just throwing stuff at a wall hoping a couple things stick. Meanwhile Republicans are busy fighting with each other.

    Fact is neither of them is gonna change anything. If anything goes wrong they'll blame the people that came before or they'll blame congress. If anything goes right they'll talk about how it's all them.

    And if more people vote more people may vote against you. Me for example, I'm still on my Morgan Freeman campaign. I mean he's got Presidential experience, great speaker, he's been in prison & been a cop so he sees the world from both sides. Plus he's God, I mean how much more qualified can you get??? He'll even drive his own car!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Feb 8, 2016, at 8:19 AM
  • Old School: You spoke of your house! Do you think the Government would bail you out if you had to go Bankrupt would they bail you out , with our money! (No) But we had to bail out the Billionaires , Plus give them more Tax breaks, and (NO ONE) gets any hard time out of it ? these *** holes pay 5 Billion back after causing all this! And the Government and half the American People ,don't call it Socialism or Welfare? I think it would be called Democratic Socialism ! Lets face it Democracy and Socialism (can) go hand & hand , and does all the time ! They just don't call it that, (when it's them!) So don't say it don't work, every road every light bulb every time an American needs rescued or saved that's our money, and the Government should do the same for all OF US !! Not just the rich! And the American People can't see this? Not to Vote for a man like Sanders is a Vote against your self interest! He has talk about this for 30 years! It's not new!! Let's give him some help??

    -- Posted by Jo on Mon, Feb 8, 2016, at 7:36 PM
  • Please explain to me how anything Sanders will help us? I mean they sound great, I won't deny they sound fun on paper. But its the impossible execution that ruin it. How do u pay for free healthcare? Free college? And no just taxing rich isn't easy fix. Cause rich will cut jobs or just move their business out of countryto avoid taxes. So even if tax rich is your plan what is the plan for the riople effect that follows?

    Also equal income, how will that work Joe? What's incentive to get education or work hard if make same salary? I love the ideas, but I need the blue prints before they even sniff my vote.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Feb 8, 2016, at 8:59 PM
  • Jo,

    While OS is wasting his vote, you and I will be improving the country by voting against Republicans.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Mon, Feb 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 12:02 AM
  • Bernie has laid all his plan out on his Web site in detail. The key is not just electing Bernie, the people has to get-out and vote in Numbers & give him the help he needs with Congress & Senate majority! He knows it won't be easy but the people can do it ! The young people are on board and with them we can have this Political Revolution to end the normal B.S.!!The voting SYSTEM SUCKS IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT HE CAN WIN!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 3:37 AM
  • He doesn't give any insight into any trickle down effects of his policy. He still only says "we'll get the money by taking it from the rich". Like the rich are just going to sit back & happily donate their money to the lazy.

    All he says is tax wall street & top .3%. Well what he doesn't say is what will those people do to counter this because they aren't just going to happily give money away. They'll go overseas, they'll fire employees, their raise prices.

    Over the next decade he says it's a crime the government will make $110 billion off student loans so get rid of that. Ok, so now he's taking $110 billion away from the government which it uses to pay for things like healthcare & what not. Plus it wants to spend $75 billion per yr on this school plan. So he's taking $110 billion from the gov. assets, but adding $75 billion per year to the debt. Again he says he'll pay for it, simply by taxing the rich & they won't argue one bit.

    $15/hr minimum wage will destroy small business & cost millions of jobs in America. At best it just means a cheeseburger at McDs will cost $10 or more. Again, nobody is just going to sit back & just give money away for no reason & thank you for taking it. These people didn't get all that money by being stupid.

    He keeps mentioning loopholes, but he never says what these loopholes are or how he'll close them. Maybe those loopholes are there for a reason. I mean if I'm Ford & they make me pay billions in taxes, I'll just move overseas. I'm sure Canada, Mexico or many other countries would happily give Mr. Ford all kinds of tax breaks to move his home office & factories & thousands of jobs to their countries. And if you don't think Mr. Ford wouldn't do it, well then you're the crook staring down the barrel of Dirty Harry's gun having to answer yourself the same question, do you feel that lucky?

    That's my point in all this. It's not that they aren't great ideas on paper. I especially love his getting money out of politics ideas! I would love to not have to pay for my kids college in 20 years. But before you go drastic & make these type of changes you have to show me how you'll handle the trickle down.

    His ideas remind me of my daughter the other day. She said she wanted to move to Disney World. I said well it's not that easy. She said sure it, quit your job, sell the house & get a job as Mickey & we'll live in Cinderella's castle. Can't lie, sounds pretty **** fun to me! And yes, what she said would be a perfect solution to make that happen. But what if the house doesn't sell? What if there aren't any Mickey job openings? What if Cinderella's castle is already booked? So then what do I do? If those type of "what if" questions can't be fully answered, than you can't make that move with a family. Now if I was single, sure chase that dream. if it blows up, well I only have to worry about myself. But when you have the responsibilities of others, you have to think about every angle to make sure you're doing what's best for them. Bernie, and you guys, are only seeing this from one angle & while it sounds great and you know may go perfectly according to plan, what happens when it doesn't going according to plan???

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 8:31 AM
  • Also that's funny Desert, your so blindly following the Democrats like one of CB's sheep you don't even realize what your saying. "While OS is wasting his vote, i'll be helping this country by voting against the republicans".

    Well if that's your stance Desert, than you are clearly wasting your vote as well. Because if you actually read what I wrote, you'd see I said I was voting for Morgan Freeman. Who is most definitely not a Republican. So if helping the country is simply voting against Republicans, than in your view aren't I helping the country? Because that sentence you wrote basically says I'm wasting my vote by not voting republican, but your helping the country by not voting republican. So is voting not Republican a waste of a vote or helping the country, seems odd that you state in can do both?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 8:34 AM
  • You guys do realize we spend over a trillion dollars every year just giving money away to help poor people right? So how much money will it take to make sure there are no poor people or no more people in need of anything?

    Also telling rich people your going to tax them, is like me telling you I'm going to come to your house & steal your car tomorrow morning. Are you going to leave your car unlocked & outside so it'e easy for me to steal? Or are you going to put it in the garage & lock it to keep me from taking it? By saying you're going to jack up taxes on rich is telling them you're coming for their money, do you honestly think they are just going to keep the money in the driveway for you?

    You guys are all big on rights. Would you say it is good for someone to mug a couple on a street corner, hold a gun to their head and take their money, jewelry & car keys?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 9:14 AM
  • You should go to YouTube & watch Stefan Molyneux's "The Truth About Bernie Sanders". If for no other reason than to see the arguments being made by others so that you can have answers for their questions.

    Funny how one side can twist facts to make their way sound perfect. And funny how all sides do this, yet people seem to think their side is some how so innocent that they'd never do this.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 9:23 AM
  • I feel so sorry for those poor rich people with their wealth untaxed overseas. Again OS, I'm glad I don't see the world through your eyes. A vote against the GOP is a good idea.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 10:00 AM
  • I wonder Rat, why do you hate rich people so much? Are you jealous of their money? Their drive? Their intelligence? Hating someone simply because of their standing in life seems to be a pretty poor way to go about life.

    I do just have one question that I would like answered Rat if it's ok with you. Do you have any concerns at all, about how a trickle down effect of Sanders big ideas, assuming they can even get off the ground, will effect the world you live in?

    I mean do you truly believe there won't be any bumps & this will go smoothly & not change anything about you're daily life in a negative way? If so that is perfectly fine, free to believe what you want. I'm just making sure you've actually thought of the consequences, and if you feel the reward out weights the risk than that's great for you. Just making sure you've actually thought it out not just said, yeah great idea do it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 11:47 AM
  • Somehow, my post wound up on the religion forum.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 3:55 PM
  • OS,

    The Republican party and I do not agree on the issues. They do not represent my views and I will not vote for them. I couldn't care less who you vote for or against.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 6:43 PM
  • Has anyone wached the YouTube video I suggested? Just wondering opinions, I only have my own and like others.

    I'm great if u want to disagree with Republicans on the issue Rat. Just want to make sure u don't just do so because its Republicans. If you've thought of every outcome & think its worth it, than vote that way. Just like everyone to know all sides

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 7:34 PM
  • I agree would prefer tazer there. Course again, charging officer & not following orders. I assume methed out if mind. But doesn't say drugs so may just been crazy guy.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 8:17 PM
  • Bigfatguyreturns(otherwise known under new pen name"Coldbeerbear") I think the black policer officer may have been homophobic and just didn't want "deez" rubbing all up on him.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 9:12 PM
  • Hey Desert, u realize the top 25% incomes pay almost 75% of the taxes the government collects. What's "fair" in your world? That means u think its unfair that you in the 75% of income that only pays 25% is u nfaur that u pay to much? Use that math for Anything else in your life & tell me what other instance that 1/4 pays for 3/4 but its still unfair to the remaining 3/4 who only pay a 1/4.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 9:59 PM
  • OS,

    It is late and I think you may a bit tipsy.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Feb 9, 2016, at 10:42 PM
  • Facts suck when they don't fit your idea don't that Rat.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 12:25 AM
  • Since the rich have most of the wealth, they should pay most of the taxes. If we closed tax loopholes, taxed hidden money overseas, taxed churches, and stayed out of stupid wars, we would be out of debt in no time. If I am ever wealthy, homophobic, racist, sexist, a gun nut, a religi-nazi, or war monger, I will consider voting Republican.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 11:20 AM
  • I am so surprised Bernie Sanders won NH last night.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 1:13 PM
  • I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for Hillary.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 1:14 PM
  • Nobody is ignoring it, but it's over. He got caught, he paid it back & he's going to likely do some jail time. I don't know if anyone was in on it, I like you would assume at least someone knew. I mean for sure his wife would know they had an extra $70k laying around, but she's not in jail so why don't you go after her? The law seems to have done an investigation to catch him in the 1st place, if that investigation says they couldn't prove anyone else knew than so be it. You know, that whole innocent until proven guilty thing there CB!

    Rat, yes the rich do hold most of the wealth therefor they are paying most of the taxes. Seems to me the system is working. I love how you think we just stop spending & thus when we tax more that will just pay the debt off. Your boy Bernie wants to add TRILLIONS to the budget every single year. How can you payoff TRILLIONS in debt when your spending TRILLIONS more every year? I can promise you the rich won't just give their money away, they'll simply move away, so once they take their 75% of tax money away, who do you think the government will be FORCED to turn too to make up the difference? That's right, the 25% that is still around, congrats, your idea of taxing the rich more has just turned into taxing the poor more. Way to think ahead :).

    Bernie was guaranteed to win NH. Lets just all pray to God, dirt or whatever you pray too that Hillary wins. She may be bat crazy, but least she won't attempt to kill the country like Bernie will.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 1:24 PM
  • I haven't really paid much attention to Sanders' message since he was supposed to be a long shot.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 2:00 PM
  • I was really hoping to see a woman candidate finally make it myself.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 2:01 PM
  • But now it looks like I have some reading and listening to do since the momentum seems to be swinging the other way at the moment.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 2:02 PM
  • Bernie is promising to give people Mansions & $10 million in cash with no strings attached and some slow people are biting on it. That's basically how he's gotten a little momentum. I think once Hillary starts hitting the fact he has no plan & people remember their 2nd grade math lessons that momentum will stop.

    Quick thought on Wally. These were reimbursement checks for mileage & such right? If he was truly just pocketing the money & straight stealing it, wouldn't officers have said something a long time ago about not getting reimbursed? Seems to me Wally may be guilty of just poor record keeping & poor account managing by others. I mean if I give my boss gas & food receipt from a trip, and I don't have my money in a week or two, I'm asking questions. Let alone after years. So I'm going to speculate, that Wally maybe paid the guys in cash cause he's an old timer good ole boy who doesn't think about record keeping. So when someone got fired & made a phone call that said check the books, the books showed he got money but didn't pay it. When really he did pay it, but he had no paper trail to prove it. His deputy said man he has bills to pay so he can't wait two weeks to get reimbursed so Wally just gave em cash on the spot to help out. Bad book keeping on Wally's part & why he's going to jail, but might not be as sinister as some maybe thinking it is. Yes CB, I feel sorry for someone & think he's being punished to harshly, but notice I'm still blaming him for making his own mistake!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 10, 2016, at 2:58 PM
  • Obviously the country can't afford the freebies to that extent.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Feb 11, 2016, at 10:32 AM
  • Is that really his platform? If it is I can't see him realistically going anywhere.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Feb 11, 2016, at 10:34 AM
  • Old school- I think you're exactly right.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Feb 11, 2016, at 10:55 AM
  • So, on the topic of embezzling funds from a county department, how is it that this went on for over 5 years with no one noticing?

    I note that we have a county auditor who according to the Saline County website is responsible for making sure all the county departments funds are properly where they should be.

    I would also like to assume that an outside auditing firm conducts an annual audit of the counties books. Was Sheriff George that brilliant of a criminal that he baffled all those CPA's?

    I'm not so sure our County Auditor is a CPA, or the Treasurer is a CPA for that matter, but that gets dangerously close to expecting voters in the new century to actually pay attention to what they are voting for.

    So, either our auditing system is amiss, or Wally was a mastermind, eh?

    By the way, the Lighthouse Shelter debacle would not have been quite the circus it was if their board would have required an annual audit of all accounts, eh? Perhaps irregularities could have been found and dealt with early, before the Fed's or State had to come along and lower the boom.

    Public entities, i.e. those operating with tax money, or non-profits, co-ops, school boards, et al should all be audited annually by a qualified CPA, someone who knows how to sniff out improper use of funds, not a local book-keeper who is friends with those being audited.

    Sadly, I don't think my local water district has been audited in 10 years. Those poor folks on the board are just setting themselves up for another one of these kind of nightmares.

    I'm not saying that this is or isn't currently happening at any given entity, but I do notice that we have a continuous stream of financial hooligans in these parts. Embezzling funds from churches, non-profits, and now the Sheriff.

    I think we have even accused our Superintendent of Schools of financial mismanagement a time or two in the past. Of course, that accusation was leveled by a local attorney who was embezzling money from clients accounts at the time. Classic Marshallism there if you ask me.

    Y'all can go ahead and tell me it happens everywhere, not just here. My response is 1) that doesn't make it right and 2) the systems of checks and balances on the use of funds in these organizations is apparently not working worth a hoot.

    Not saying Wally isn't guilty, or it isn't his fault. I'm saying that there should be better accounting methods and better auditing of public funds.

    It's crap like this that makes the average Joe lose faith in his governments and his communities.

    And it's best I not get started on Ms. Lattimer's path to the highest paying job in the City of Marshall bureaucracy, which I fully realize has absolutely nothing to do with the goings on in the County Courthouse.

    It does, however, speak to the culture of the area in my opinion.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Feb 12, 2016, at 11:26 AM
  • All great points and well said Dog!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 12, 2016, at 3:01 PM
  • Smart Dog my thoughts exactly.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Fri, Feb 12, 2016, at 5:12 PM
  • Good grief. It took the sheriff pleading guilty to absconding funds to get News to post here again.

    Welcome back. You're just in time for America's lessons in Democratic Socialism from Bernie Sanders, News.

    Hope you are doing well. I was were worried you might have followed OKR into the sunset. I think I recall RR3 making an almost positive comment about your contributions not too long ago, even thought posts from RR3 himself are rare these days.

    You got to love the Trump candidacy, eh?

    Or that it has only taken Marshall folks 3 or 4 years to realize that former Mayor Connie appointing herself City Manager might have been a little ill advised.

    Or that the school board's "ram it down their throats" methodology was doing more harm than good.

    Or that Marshall Public Schools has pretty much reached laughing stock status with the revolving door on the super's office and the never ending mantra of "money fixes everything (mostly because we don't know how to budget or manage our funds)."

    Did you catch the part where the school district rented the farm land they bought without voter approval back to the guy they bought it from?

    Or the part about where nobody wanted to let it out to the public that they have already paid $15,769 per acre for 26 acres of farm land?

    That, right there, was some fantastic negotiating by the Gerringers. Perhaps we should see if the board wants to buy some swampland in florida?

    But, hey, at the $167.50 they rented it out for, it will only take 94 years to pay for its self since the tax money rolls into the district interest free from all us taxpayers.

    If, of course, they had borrowed the money, it would essentially never pay for its self. In other words, the district owning that farm land is now officially costing the taxpayers additional money that isn't going to the education of our students.

    Way to go to all those former board members. Genius move.

    One of these days I believe folks might wake up and realize that the school board should try and run a functional district within their means and try taking care of what they already have. I reckon no one wants to hear that broken record, eh?

    Oh, and stop listening to those **** consulting firms, or overpaid newcomer administrators for that matter, that come in and milk the community for hundreds of thousands of dollars and then walk away smiling as they sniff out the next public entity they can fleece for "feasibility studies" and "facility proposals."

    Here's a note to public entities with reserve bonding capacity.

    That's all you water districts, school districts, ambulance districts, libraries, etc. that have a public funding stream in place. 21st century engineering and consulting firms gather data from public records and then target those with bonding capacity as potential sources of revenue. Hell, they even know that most board members aren't that well versed in what they are managing. Typically they are just local folks who won an election, not experts in the field they are now in charge of.

    I can't call it a con game, because it's certainly not illegal. But it does require someone with some critical thinking skills to recognize the smoke and mirrors when they come in and convince you that 1) you have big problems that you just can't see for yourself, but they can and 2) for thousands of dollars they will show you how to fleece your members/taxpayers/owners out of millions of dollars and they will only walk away with a percentage and 3) your life will be sunshine and roses once they are gone (and have left you with a more expensive to maintain entity than you had before that may or may not perform better because they will never sign up to performance clauses that hold them financially responsible in that event).

    It's a dog eat dog world out there folks, and some dogs come to the door with a big smile and a hearty handshake, telling you just what you want to hear, before they start gobbling up your cash.

    Can't wait to see which public group will be the next in Saline County that pays outsiders handsomely to come in and tell them how to fleece the public for money to pay for things they don't need. Seems to have become another one of the wonders of 21st century America.

    Wait, didn't the MMU Board just pay consultants to tell them they could build a warehouse next to warehouses they already have?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Feb 13, 2016, at 10:26 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Feb 14, 2016, at 3:28 AM
  • Nothing will happen with the Supreme Court while Obama is President! That's the way it is in this System, and everyone knows it. If Bernie would say it's on his agenda, he was going to try and do something about this, would push him over the top, in my opinion ! Anything to change the inside operation of this system!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Sun, Feb 14, 2016, at 2:48 PM
  • Yeah, News, but when have you observed the conservatives in America doing anything that makes sense?

    Well, beyond their successful reliance on guns and religion to buy them votes.

    McConnell is his own worst enemy but he's the only one who doesn't know it.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Feb 15, 2016, at 7:58 AM
  • Holy cow you guys, how much time do you spend on politics that you know there are 24 elections this time around?

    How often does the other party block a nomination? I mean it seems kind of pointless to try to block a nomination to me. The guy is still President for like 10 or 11 more months, he's gonna get someone in the courts before he is out. If it was November then ok, I could understand, but in February?

    Also why would it mean the Republicans would lose all 24? Yeah if they are in "blue" states, which I'm going to assume means they are usually democrat won states?, it's more likely a higher percentage will go Dem but the odds of all 24 flopping or all 24 staying the same are very long no matter what happens.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 16, 2016, at 8:12 AM
  • News : My friend, I hope your right !

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Feb 16, 2016, at 1:50 PM
  • I can't fault your math & logic News. Especially for Senate seats that frankly the average Joe knows nothing about & could care less, those average numbers your using should hold strong. I literally can't tell you who MO senators are and probably will never be able to. So there won't be some wacky stuff that will change those averages.

    Now the Presidency could be wacky as hell just because of Trump. For the average Joe who only pays attention to politics during the Presidential election, Trump is winning that vote big time. It's because most people are really tired of the usual political BS and there is nothing usual about Trump.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Feb 16, 2016, at 3:46 PM
  • C'mon, Oldschool. You should at least know who represents you in the government and what they stand for, don't you think?

    Do you just leave those boxes blank when you vote?


    Your Senators are Claire McCaskill (D) and Roy Blunt (R).

    Claire is a former Jackson County Prosecuting Attorney who was known as somewhat of a hard-***.

    Roy is the head of a very powerful political family in Missouri and basically runs all things Republican in our state.

    Your US Congressman is Reverand Emanuel Cleaver II (D).

    Rev. Cleaver was traditionally the inner city Kansas City, MO representative. He became the Congressman for Lafayette and Saline Counties during the last major round of gerrymandering by our Republican controlled Missouri Legislature because Lafayette and Saline tend to vote Democratic, so they lumped us in with Jackson County to make sure the Republicans would win all the other Congressional Seats outside of Kansas City and St. Louis.

    Really makes no sense at all, but what do you expect from our Tea-billy Missouri Legislature. Two of the biggest agriculture producing counties in the state are represented by a black clergyman from inner city Kansas City.

    I will have to say, I am impressed with Cleaver though. He has made many attempts to get out here in farm country, where he is somewhat like a fish out of water, and find out what we think and need.

    We see more of him in Saline and Lafayette counties than we ever did of Vicky Hartzler, the clueless Tea-Billy Darling who the Blunts and her millionaire husband bought the defeat of Ike Skelton for, and who was our representative prior to Cleaver.

    Pay attention, man. There are reasons those who post here who do pay attention state the things they do. There's a big old world out there beyond the walls of your house and the city limits of Marshall.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Feb 17, 2016, at 12:46 PM
  • Ok I have heard of McCaskill & Blunt and do remember seeing their names on the ballot but couldn't have told you what it was for. Don't actually remember who I voted for either.

    I did vote for Cleaver because I remembered seeing him at Chiefs & Royals games a lot as a KC guy. Anyone who can root for my teams gets my vote. But again I couldn't have told you exactly what position he held.

    To many politicians between local, state & federal to keep track of who all is what. Besides individually none of them really mean a lot in the big picture of things.

    Not saying my intentional ignorance in the political realm is right or wrong, but it is why 60 to 70% of the country doesn't vote. At least I do vote! Now local elections, hardly anything will get anyone of that 60/70% to vote. For one, it's hard to convince people their specific 1 vote counts when all elections are won by hundreds or thousands. For two, nothing ever gets done in politics than the average person can understand anyway so those people feel they are wasting the little lunch break the get to vote on stuff they have no clue about. So it's just easier to go about your day since nothing major ever seems to really change, especially in local politics.

    Now you hardcores won't agree with that or think that's idiotic, which it may be. But it's how that part of society thinks. Figure out a way to solve those problems for your specific party, you'll get lot more votes your way.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 17, 2016, at 2:44 PM
  • What exactly would I owe Jo an apology for?

    How ****** are all u donkeys that Marshall poll has Trump way ahead? I hoped for more "Other" voted like mine


    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sat, Feb 20, 2016, at 8:49 PM
  • Pretty sure I said vote anyway u want. Just don't vote cause of hopes & fake dreams like Sanders says. Now u think Sanders will just make good president than go for it

    But don't vote cause u expect to get extra checks in the mail.or free college. Otherwise the next president will.just promise even more crazy dreams to just buy votes.

    I vote for Freeman cause I don't think any of them will be any good at president. Don't believe any of their lies & think whoever wins will suck & be replaced in 4 yrs.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sun, Feb 21, 2016, at 11:22 AM
  • Mega-donors to campaigns expect (and get) laws and administrative policies that save them huge gobs of money - or gigantic bail-outs when they tank the whole economy. Isn't that "free stuff" too? Why is that OK, but benefits for the rest of us are "free stuff" given to buy votes? I'd a lot rather have the "free stuff" going to people who aren't fabulously wealthy. There are a lot more of them and they spend it back into the US economy - as opposed to sheltering it from taxes off-shore.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Feb 23, 2016, at 3:17 PM
  • If I knew they could give me the free stuff they are promising than I'd happily take it. My point wasn't that they were giving us free stuff, it's that they are offering the dreams of free stuff w/no plan. Sanders promising his pie in the sky stuff is like a kid going for class president offering McD's in the lunch room, 4 day weekends and recliners instead of desk chairs.

    And no just saying "tax the rich more" isn't a plan. It's not a plan because when people ask about the push back in increase prices, job cuts & other money saving plans for those rich he doesn't have an answer. Now if he would say, I'm glad you asked because I've really thought this out & this is how we can counter that and had two or three ways to counter it, than he'd really have my interest.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Feb 24, 2016, at 8:37 AM
  • They give free stuff to the banks and huge business now. It's a matter of a lot of people supporting proposals to give stuff to us (and candidates who say they'll do it) instead of giving the goodies to the same bunch that's now getting them. Can Bernie swing it? I don't know. But his intent to do it is farther reaching than anything we've had in anybody else.

    And it's not Trump. He may not have taken huge campaign contributions, but he doesn't have to - he gets tons of free media and he's a billionaire. So the interests of the billionaires are his interests. He only cares about our interests to the extent that satisfying them keeps the place stable for him.

    I don't want to make this post endless, so I'm not going to go into a lot of specifics of Bernie's plans - they're on his website at, but a lot of what he's talking about is ending the free stuff (tax giveaways, etc.) that big corporations, large stock traders & wealthy individuals get & providing more for the average person.

    He also voted against the Iraq war, which, in addition to being a terrible thing in loss of life, loss of respect around the world and unintended consequences (de-stabilizing the Middle East even further, for example) was REALLY expensive. I sure wish we hadn't spent the money doing that.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Feb 25, 2016, at 9:52 AM
  • I agree big businesses & big banks get free stuff. The idea being to be nice so they stick around. Sounds logical to me but economics doesn't usually follow logic as News has educated me so I can agree that some of that should fade away.

    While I was all for going to Iraq in 2001, I would have liked to have left Iraq by 03' or 04'. I think at the time it started most of the country agreed you hit us, we hit you back twice as hard. But once that was over, I agree there wasn't much need to stick around.

    Sanders plans again don't show what happens when things go wrong. A good plan has multiple levels of plan B, C & so on to cover the issues that arise. All he's shown is plan A, which I think we can all agree won't go off without a hitch. So my only question to Bernie & his people is what happens when the hitches start coming? And it's not just Bernie, Trump shouldn't be getting hammered the same way on how he's going to pay for his giant wall & some of the crazy stuff he talks about.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Feb 25, 2016, at 12:26 PM
  • Sheesh, Oldschool.

    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Al Qaeda was headquartered in Afghanistan and allowed to freely operate by the Taliban. Your comment about how "you hit us, we hit you back twice as hard" leads me to believe you have Al Qaeda in Afghanistan mixed up with Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

    It's somewhat understandable if you have that situation confused as that was the goal of the neo-cons during W's presidency. Confuse as many Americans as possible about the goings on in regard to that whole mess.

    Again, Iraq did not attack us on 9/11/2001.

    Saddam Hussein was not a good guy. But he was also not stupid enough to invite the US to kick his butt again after Gulf War 1.

    We invaded Iraq because some bad decisions early in the Afghan campaign led us to a mired down, unwinnable situation in our efforts to find Bin Laden. Who escaped to Pakistan due to the bungled efforts of the US Military and administration at Tora Bora by the way.

    Iraq became a way to "win" something in order to save face for George W. Tracking down Saddam Hussein was far easier than finding Bin Laden, so we painted Saddam as the boogy-man and then attacked.

    Halliburton and it's subsidiaries in the defense contractor business made billions off the war in Iraq, thereby funding the future of conservative politics in America. You do know Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton when elected to the Vice-Presidency, right?

    Invading Afghanistan was a reasonable response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks which Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for, however we were unprepared and had no idea what we were getting into. But, hey, everybody in America felt good about killing somebody or something in response to 9/11.

    Invading Iraq was elective warfare by the Bush Administration. Plain and simple. Also, the March 2003 invasion of Iraq was timed to coincide with the 2004 elections, because, "You can't change presidents in the middle of a war" makes for a nice campaign slogan as well. Also, the neo-cons figured to have Saddam all wrapped up right in time for campaign season. Sadly, it worked quite well for them.

    In light of your comment, I have to ask, are you aware that most all of George W's staffers were Reagan staffers in the 1980's? Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, Matalin and a host of others were all raised by Ronald Reagan and Lee Atwater. They are professional, career bureaucrats who never run for office, and have nothing but self interest in mind. You are aware of the fact that those behind the scenes ran America from 2000-2008, not Bush, right?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Feb 25, 2016, at 1:34 PM
  • Why didn't we just treat it as a criminal action by individuals? No country attacked us, it was a criminal conspiracy. Why treat them like a nation?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Feb 25, 2016, at 3:37 PM
  • Because there would be no political gain from sending the FBI to Afghanistan to investigate and capture the criminals.

    Don't forget, the majority of Americans were ready to declare war on anybody in retribution for 9/11. We had politicians who were more than willing to reap gains from the fear and panic of the populace following this national tragedy, especially after the nightmare that was the 2000 election.

    So, invade Afghanistan! Except that turned into another Vietnam; no clear objectives, no way to declare a victory over an opponent who just vanished into thin air. Heck, the USSR was there for 11 years and gave up. Once the neo-cons figured out that their political capital enhancing invasion was turning into the second coming of Vietnam, and Osama Bin Laden was nowhere to be found, then we invaded Iraq.

    Remember how America loved "Shock and Awe" when we bombed the crap out of Baghdad to kick off the Iraq invasion? I reckon we killed many more than 3000 civilians just on the first night.

    There's an old saying I always think of when folks start itching for biblical retribution: "An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

    Which, of course leads me to another of my favorite sayings: "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Feb 25, 2016, at 4:11 PM
  • I wasn't really asking why, I was trying to suggest that was what we should have done instead of starting wars.

    And on Afghanistan & the fact that the Russians lost a war there in the '80's - the people they lost to were the Muslim extremists (freedom fighters) WE assembled and armed in order to defeat the USSR (including Osama Bin Ladin, by the way). When the Russians left, we turned our backs, too & ignored the consequences of gathering those people to Afghanistan & enriching and arming them and their Afghani allies. That spawned the Taliban, who took over the country. That's who we were fighting after 911. Talk about blowback!

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Feb 26, 2016, at 7:19 AM
  • I did mix up the fights, frankly they blurred together at the time to where I really don't see the difference. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, it's pretty much all the same to me.

    You are correct, it was Afghanistan we hit after 9/11. So I would agree with you that we should have never gone into Iraq cause by 03' I was fine with the damage we'd done. Although getting Sudam was nice & most of the world thanked us for that.

    I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Especially not on a minor individual scale. If you hit me I shouldn't get to beat you with a bat. I believe in body for an eye on the major scale. Someone attacks us like they did on 9/11 I didn't want us to just blow up a couple buildings and be done. That's equal eye for eye. I wanted us to obliterate them as much as possible. You are right in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, well they poke our eye out we don't go eye for an eye, we automatically make them blind. That's what I wanted. Now whether we accomplished that or not I couldn't say. But I believe the goal was to hit them so hard their leaders & or followers would be to scared of our rath to hit us again.

    It's a normal human reaction. If someone bumps you and spills your beer, you'll turn ticked off. If he's 5'9 120 lbs, well you'll probably talk tough, maybe even get physical. But if you turn around & the guy is 6'5, 250, you'll probably just say excuse me and turn back around. I want the US to be that 6'5 250 guy.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 26, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • Might makes right.

    Another of the old school tenants of political science.

    He who conquers makes the rules, eh?

    Well, at least in the short term.

    Where's that British Empire now? Or the Spanish Conquistadors? Or the Bolsheviks?

    Or America in Vietnam?

    So maybe being the 6'5" 250 lb. guy wins the battle, but the 5'9" 120 lb guy can organize resistance, wait outside with a bat or gun, or maybe hack the big dudes credit.

    After all, nobody likes a bully.

    So tell me again how being the world's biggest bully leads to peace and prosperity?

    There was a time when the Brits were the worlds biggest bully. Also the Spanish. Ghengis Kahn. Hitler. Any of these folks still in control of anything?

    "Might makes right" works to get your way for the short term, but if you don't "win the hearts and minds of the populace' you won't last.

    Regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, if we are busily killing off the civilian population, then we probably aren't going to win many hearts and minds. For every innocent civilian we kill, we make enemies out of his remaining family and friends.

    Lessons lost on the Bush Administration as they perpetrated "Shock and Awe" for the news cameras, while thumping chests and claiming "Mission Accomplished."

    So, are things better in Afghanistan or Iraq today than before we spent trillions of dollars to conquer a country that never attacked us (Iraq) and then leave it in disarray, or after spending equal amounts (Afghanistan) and failing to eliminate the Taliban or capture Bin Laden?

    Military invasion is not what tracked down and killed Bin Laden. Well done intelligence gathering and dedication to the task, followed by a small, effective, and well planned task force mission to deal with him got it done.

    But, hey, Shock and Awe played much better on television in America. And, of course, we can't possibly give any credit to Obama for staying the course and tracking down Bin Laden, which was done without a shock and awe style full blown military invasion of Pakistan, where he was hiding.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Feb 26, 2016, at 9:32 AM
  • Give Obama all credit for finding Osama. I actually give him more credit for having the courage to green light the assault despite not knowing for sure it was him.

    Did I say "might makes right"? Did I say I wanted to go in and take over & control those areas to expand the US? I don't want to go around picking fights. I've stated multiple times I'd like to bring all our military home & let the rest of the world babysit themselves. All I stated was if someone hits us we hit them back harder so people think twice next time they want to hit us.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 26, 2016, at 10:47 AM
  • Congrats to MU for finally firing Melissa Click. Should have been done months ago but least they finally got something right.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Feb 26, 2016, at 3:02 PM
  • Again someone running away from the cops. No it's not that guys fault, but he sure didn't help himself any did he? Another lesson for others.

    Family members who weren't even there say he didn't have a gun. Police say he did have a gun. Both are biased. When the evidence comes out one way or another then I'll say what threat the cops may or may not have had. If turns out he didn't have a gun, then cop should be charged with manslaughter or something. If he did have a gun, then cop did his job & he should go back to work. CB you agree with me of course? I mean innocent until proven guilty & all that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 1, 2016, at 8:10 AM
  • So again CB, what have cops ever done to you to make you despise them so much?

    I mean now your saying cops just want to kill everyone so you have to run from them because that's your own only hope for survival? I mean you have absolutely no statistics or facts to back that up so it must purely be your opinion which means in your mind all cops want to kill you. That takes some pure hatred to think an entire group of people want to kill you for no reason.

    So by your standards no criminal should ever be convicted of anything because all cops do is plant evidence & kill people. So really, nothing cops do can be trusted so really we shouldn't have cops at all right? I mean maybe I'm being to literal in your comments, what can I say when I see a painting of a soup can I think the guy just liked soup.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM
  • Just going off your comments there CB, not sure how that's straw man to simply go off what you wrote. I'm not the one who said people have to run from cops because it's their only way to survive.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 1, 2016, at 3:49 PM
  • Again where was the straw man? You stated running from the cops is the only hope of survival for someone.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Mar 2, 2016, at 8:24 AM
  • Does anyone know anything about the hygienist that got arrested from Dr. Thompsons office? It hasn't been in the paper yet...hmmmm.

    -- Posted by karma is real on Wed, Mar 2, 2016, at 9:11 AM
  • No Karma, that's the first I've heard of it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Mar 2, 2016, at 10:20 AM
  • Yes unfortunately, guess there were some illegal things going on. A family member at that, so I feel bad for Dr. Thompson. Hopefully he doesn't suffer for it.

    -- Posted by karma is real on Wed, Mar 2, 2016, at 12:03 PM
  • Dang.... Nine candidates for sheriff so far.

    Oldschool, there's the job for you. Better get to the courthouse and sign up.

    So can anybody clue me in? I assume the nine are primary candidates, so then that gets narrowed down to two, one D and one R, in November.

    By listing them all in one lump, it makes it look like a nine way race in the upcoming election.

    Anyways, with six Democrats running in the primary, somebody could win the Democratic nomination with, like, 600 to 800 votes, I reckon.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Mar 4, 2016, at 7:40 AM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    Indeed they are all candidates in the primary, the same as we still have multiple candidates remaining from each party for U.S. President and from the Republican party for Missouri Governor. The Missouri primary, for everything other than President, will take place Aug. 2.
  • NO!!! Bigfatguyreturns (coldbeerbear) That is not what the "fair dui flyer" is used for. The "fair dui flyer" has been used on dui sobriety checkpoints where law enforcement have no reasonable suspicion against individual drivers and are stopping all drivers in an attempt to catch drivers under the influence of alcohol or drugs so that they don't cause an accident and kill the mom with 3 kids in the minivan on their way home from the movie theater.

    If a law enforcement officer pulls you over with reasonable suspicion or probable cause, ie. you were speeding, failed to stop at a stop intersection, don't use your turn signal when turning or making a lane change, you had an improper lane usage because you were swerving in and out of the lane, and so on and so on, you DO have to provide them with your driver license, insurance and vehicle registration if asked. Holding up against the window is not sufficient due to the mere fact those documents can and have been forged. The officer will inspect closely to verify they haven't been forged and match the driver and vehicle. Also common sense says the officer will write your ticket in the safety of their police car and not on the side of the road trying to peer through your window at your documents while cars are driving by.

    As in the past please read and do a little research on your post before regurgitating your "I wanna be a jail house lawyer" post. The internet is a vast resource of information where you can find factual information.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Mar 4, 2016, at 11:30 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Mar 5, 2016, at 12:51 AM
  • Great information from EIEIO. Any officer that has been through the academy knows what they can and can't do. The info on that website has the same case law information that is given during police training. If you exercise your rights as an American citizen, especially in a polite manner, your interaction with law enforcement shoud go professionally.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sat, Mar 5, 2016, at 8:55 AM
  • Great, I hope your campaign works out. On the other hand I hope it doesn't backfire and open up a can of worms. I mean I have pointed out in a past post how the police don't write a lot of tickets. Maybe they should start a different campaign and start being stricter with their enforcement of traffic law violations. I mean after all if the speed limit is 25mph they have probably cause to stop you when your going 26, 27, 28mph. When you do one of your rolling stops and not a complete stop and make a turn without using your turn signal at the same time they could write you the two tickets for $80.00 a piece. Plenty...and I mean plenty of legitimate reasons to stop motorist who are violating traffic laws. I am sure they can catch just as many dui's in this manner. By the way what were the stats on arrest at the last 3 dui checkpoints in town? (Just wanted to point out your lack of college student harassment with factual numbers.)

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Mar 6, 2016, at 11:58 AM
  • "Then I suggest playing F... The police by NWA at full volume anytime the cop isn't actually talking to you."

    Your so wishy washy, pick a side!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Mar 6, 2016, at 1:41 PM
  • Hey CB, when you get pulled over & use the flyer and boom that song, let me know how that turned out lol. I mean I could walk up to a bear and punch it in the face, but then I probably shouldn't be mad or upset when it mauls me. When you do that to a cop, don't complain when you get a ticket for going 1 mph, failing to signal, no seatbelt & whatever else they can throw on you at that time. Or if they remember the hateful guy in the car & make sure to get you on those minor offenses down the road. Don't complain about being pulled over black, that's called being pulled over a$$hole.

    Another option for those harmless checkpoints is to simply turn down any music, role down window, show info. Answer any simple question he ask with straight answer, keep light on in car so he can see there is no booze. When he hands you the info back and says have a nice night, simply say you too officer X and enjoy the rest of your evening. Funny how simple & easy that is not only at that time, but in the future as well.

    Also the article about how to act around cops & never talk & all that BS. If you're a crook with something to hide, that is darn good advice! If you're law abiding citizen like myself & most of us here, it doesn't concern us. For 1, officer will likely never be at our homes or pulling us over for anything other than routine traffic stop. So at that point what do you have to hide unless u just really want to fight that 5 mph over speeding ticket. And even if they do come to your home, what you got to hide? I know I have nothing, can search anywhere in my home they want. I'll even offer them a pepsi or sweet tea if they'd like. Course they won't be in my home because I don't break the law & the people I associate with don't either. Funny how law enforcement is never an issue for people who simply avoid people & situations that require law enforcement.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Mar 7, 2016, at 3:49 PM
  • Yes CB, way to once again use the Nazi's. Something 75 years ago & something not of this country.

    If you'd like to refuke my stance on something happening in 2016 in America, than please reference examples from 2016 in America otherwise it means nothing to my point.

    Your example also doesn't work because most of those people knew exactly what that knock on their door meant, which is why they tride to hide when they could. And it wasn't just everyday police either, it was the military knocking on those doors. If I know that the US military is hunting German Americans to kill us than my stance would probably change. But since they is not happening anytime soon, I was again stance that in American in 2016 unless you have a reason to hide something, what's the problem?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • I never said you didn't have the right to tell them no. Of course you have the right. I'm just saying there is no point in doing that if you have nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide, if they feel some need to come in & look around, they can look all they want because I know for 100% fact they won't find anything. If you got something to hide, well then I can understand why you know so much about rights to hide behind.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 1:03 PM
  • OS,

    You can forfeit your constitutional rights if you want to, but don't expect many to follow you.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 1:52 PM
  • I would be willing to bet that most of non-crime America would not think twice about letting a police officer into their home if they asked. Most of us, don't really think about rights when we have nothing to hide.

    The only people who know rights & laws better than cops are criminals. Because if you gonna break them, you'd better know the loopholes if their are any. More often the not the people complaining about their rights, are people that are in fear of losing those rights because they know they've done something wrong.

    I have the right to own an AK47, doesn't mean I should or want to. I have the right to worship Satan. Doesn't mean I really should or want too. I have the right to walk into Harlem & scream the N word as loud as I want. Doesn't mean I should or want too. If I have zero to hide from police, of course I have the right to slam door in their face. I have right to call them names as I do it. But then they also have the right to then make my life miserable with tickets & fines. Or I could just let them in since I have nothing to hide, they'll see that, move on & probably let me slide here & there because I was so nice. Hmmm, the easy way, or the hard way in life?

    Personally I choose the easy way, but if you want to chose the hard way that is perfectly fine & your right. But don't cry when your life turns out hard, after all, it was the choice you made!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 3:41 PM
  • OS,

    I would bet that most people would not prefer to live in the police state that you seem to be proposing.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 4:00 PM
  • Imagine there's no heaven

    It's easy if you try

    No hell below us

    Above us only sky

    Imagine all the people

    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no countries

    It isn't hard to do

    Nothing to kill or die for

    And no religion too

    Imagine all the people

    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer

    But I'm not the only one

    I hope someday you'll join us

    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions

    I wonder if you can

    No need for greed or hunger

    A brotherhood of man

    Imagine all the people

    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer

    But I'm not the only one

    I hope someday you'll join us

    And the world will live as one

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 5:52 PM
  • Would love to live in a world without the need for police but unfortunately as long as we have people with hatred in their hearts like coldbeerbear/bigfatguyreturns that will never happen.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 5:59 PM
  • Lol, what police state? I never said cops should just be running around barging in houses at will. Simply stated if a cop does ask for some reason, if u got nothing to hide what's the harm?

    Rights are great, but I never put myself in situation that demands I need my rights to really matter. Free speech is great, its how we can all post. You wouldn't like me just throwing the n word around though. Despite it being my right if I wanted too.

    I don't break laws so I have no reason to refuse searchs. Now I'm running late I may ask cops to come back on my lunch break but that's it. I own guns so like that right.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 7:43 PM
  • Exactly what does any of that information have to do with police? And yes u get arrested for indecent exposure so legally I must keep my genitals private.

    My kids have mostly A's, occasional B's so I'm happy to brag.. They are perfectly healthy with couple broken bones and all immunizations, again pretty proud of that so no problem telling. Far as I know there are no illicit pictures of my wife lol.

    But again hiding things from random strangers isn't even close to police asking. But good attempt CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 8, 2016, at 9:13 PM
  • Lol well CB for those of us with actual lives will be just go on like every other day. If I happen to get caught up in the check point, I will politely take the 5 minutes out of my day & give the information the police need and be on my way.

    Since no rights at all are being violated, I'd say it's should be pretty easy to stand up for those rights.

    Let me know how being a d-bag and using that flyer works out for you. Cause being a d-bag and making things harder than they need to be always works out so much better than being nice & doing things the easy way.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Mar 10, 2016, at 12:52 PM

    Please drive safely always and not just because there is going to be a DUI checkpoint.

    Thanks go to all law enforcement for doing their part to make our world a safer place. Would much rather be slightly inconvenienced than see anymore stories like Jacqui's.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Mar 10, 2016, at 2:05 PM
  • ColdBeer Bear Why are you always so negative

    and trying to stir up trouble. You must be so lonely.

    -- Posted by Cat Lover on Thu, Mar 10, 2016, at 4:33 PM
  • The piece of paper out your window is a nice idea. However it is a sobriety check point not an I.d. Checkpoint, the stop is legal because everyone is being stopped. The courts found being stopped in a checkpoint for a brief amount of time while a very quick dwi investigation was conducted, which is why you have to roll the window down, was reasonable given the threat those who drink and drive pose to others on the road. Grandmas, 5 month old babies who are asleep people like that. Wanting to speak out against something you feel violates one of your rights is good and everything. You might take it up with the Supreme Court though, as they have found it is not an unreason seizure, those officers aren't the ones to have the problem with.

    -- Posted by Ladyfcats on Thu, Mar 10, 2016, at 9:05 PM
  • Yours is a logical and well reasoned comment, Ladyfeats.

    What in the world is it doing on here?

    But I still don't like the concept of "sobriety checkpoints" and feel they are nothing more than fishing expeditions to see if we can cast a wide net and catch a few offenders.

    This was the very thing, from my reading about the 4th Ammendment justifications, that the framers of the constitution didn't like about the King.

    As very few drunk folks, and in most cases none, are found in these checkpoints, I would like to see some sort of data analysis that demonstrates decreased drunk driving injuries due to them. I am doubtful that it can be proven.

    So like most things in our modern times, the conservative dominated Supreme Court decision was likely based on opinions from law enforcement and prosecutors, not facts, and the result ultimately sends more money their way to fund things like sobriety checkpoints, which then results in increased revenues from fines and costs to taxpayers to house more jail inmates.

    Once again, mostly about money now-a-days, not about public safety.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 8:12 AM
  • How many more ways are SD & CB going to blame the rest of the world for criminals breaking the law? If you have drugs in the car & are stopped or pulled over for any reason, you will get busted for that offense. If you'd like to avoid that punishment, how about either don't do drugs or at least leave them at home!

    Last time I checked the job of a police officer is to enforce the current laws set forth by the state & federal government. Now we can debate dumb laws all we want, but they are laws. A checkpoint is designed to curb drinking & driving. I believe the number of people caught drinking in these have dropped everytime, that means something is working. Do they bust people with drugs & suspended licenses and things during these stops, of course they do. Last time I checked, driving w/suspended license or having illegal drugs is considered against the law. Meaning if a law enforcement officer sees you in this situation, its that persons job to enforce that law.

    So if you'd like to be upset about the fines & other legal action made during these checkpoints, please direct your attention to those offenders breaking the law. I would bet if they had two or three checkpoints in a row where nobody was busted for anything, they'd think about either stopping them or doing them less frequently. However, if the checkpoints continue to work & catch criminals (which is their design) than I don't see any reason to stop them. If you'd like to see them stop, please direct the criminals to stop breaking the law.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 8:40 AM
  • If my kids are on the same highway, road or even a driveway as a drunk driver, and a check point would save them injury or death; bring it on.

    It is a no brainer. We have the same thing at the airport with the security check points.

    It is a different, less friendly world out there. We need protection from the idiots who don't know better, or do not care.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 12:43 PM
  • The results of these checkpoints have been published and usually there are no arrests for drunk driving and perhaps one misdemeanor drug bust per about 300 people stopped. Of course the pot bust only happens if we conveniently have the drug dog handy.

    So is it really a "Sobirety Checkpoint" or just a "stop and see if we can find anything we don't like" checkpoint? If it is the second, whether you like it or not, it was supposedly forbidden by the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.

    I, personally, have no fear of being busted as I am most likely in bed when these things are going on. So my concern is not that I enjoy breaking the law, as you seem to like to insinuate. My concern is that our personal freedom and liberty seems to be eroding at the hands of federal, state, and local governments, but even more so by prosecutors and law enforcement.

    How do you stop this erosion if no one ever speaks up? Do we let it go until "stop and frisk" and "show me you papers" are daily occurrences?

    I have to wonder if you ever even read the Constitution? If so, have you read any of the Federalist Papers describing the justification for requiring warrants being necessary to have a truly "free" populace? it was a similar line of thinking to the 2nd Amendment, that the citizens would need protection from a government run amok with it's power to control them.

    Additionally, as far as I can tell, the grant money is provided for checking for drunk driving, not drug busts. It is not a branch of our war on drugs, the grants are for attempts to decrease drunk drivers.

    In reality, we have these sobriety checkpoints because grant money pays for them. If the local law enforcement folks weren't getting pay provided by the grant, it is very doubtful that they would happen.

    So, once again, it's about money, not public safety.

    Show me how my tax dollars paying for this questionable practice is justified in lives saved or injuries prevented. You can't.

    We all know that petty crime is now used as a revenue generator for municipalities in the 21st century, and if we can veil it behind "public safety," then all the better.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 1:33 PM
  • "The most disturbing aspect of the Court's decision today is that it appears to give no weight to the citizen's interest in freedom from suspicionless, unannounced investigatory seizures. . . . On the other hand, the Court places a heavy thumb on the law-enforcement interest by looking only at gross receipts instead of net benefits. Perhaps this tampering with the scales of justice can be explained by the Court's obvious concern about the slaughter on our highways, and a resultant tolerance for policies designed to alleviate the problem by ''setting an example'' of a few motorists. . .

    Sobriety checkpoints are elaborate, and disquieting, publicity stunts. The possibility that anybody, no matter how innocent, may be stopped for police inspection is nothing if not attention-getting. The shock value of the checkpoint program may be its most effective feature; Lieutenant Cotton of the Maryland State Police, a defense witness, testified that ''the media coverage . . . has been absolutely overwhelming. . . . Quite frankly we got benefits just from the controversy of the sobriety checkpoints.'"

    Excerpted from Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens comments regarding Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz, June 14, 1990

    It would appear that not everyone shares the opinion that there is nothing wrong with sobriety checkpoints, including former Justice Stevens.

    It also appears that in the 26 years since that Supreme Court decision, made during the golden years of Mothers Against Drunk Driving and their political influence, and a period of expansion of conservative control of the government, no one has yet proven any link between increased public safety and sobriety checkpoints.

    But it sure sounds good and makes for a fine show of force by law enforcement, doesn't it?

    Anyway, FYI...

    They may be marginally legal, but it still doesn't make it right. Those poor dopes on the Supreme Court in 1990 were caught in the middle of the public outrage over drunk driving accidents.

    BTW, there are less than half as many drunk driving fatalities today as there were in 1990, when this decision was handed down.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 2:08 PM
  • So since this decision was handed down drunk driving deaths have decreased? Is it not safe to assume that these check points have at least been a part of that number being lower?

    Let me ask you SD, what is your opinion on security procedures at airports? Remember back to before DB Cooper decided to become a legend you didn't even hardly have to show them id to get a ticket let alone have any kind of search, medical detectors or anything like that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 3:02 PM
  • New's: I hope it's not Clinton! Been there done that. I no ill be going with Bernie !

    -- Posted by Jo on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 3:02 PM
  • Hey that was SD stats not mine. He said since court said checkpoints don't violate any constitutional rights the deaths by drunk drivers has dropped. His words, not mine.

    Again no rights have been given up per the people who decide what your rights are. As always don't like the laws, get out & atually try to fix it. Don't want to do that work, than your just as complacent as u say the rest of us are who simply say it's a good thing.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 4:02 PM
  • I am interested in knowing how that flyer works if anyone uses it during the checkpoint.

    Checkpoints do help scare people into not drinking & driving. I remember being a dumb college kid and stayng at home to drink specifically because I knew there were checkpoints that night. Nights there weren't checkpoints I wasn't so smart.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 11, 2016, at 8:08 PM
  • I'm aware you're not required to hand over your license. You're not required to have a job either, but it sure helps your life go smoothly (unless Bernie gets elected, the no job is the way to go). That's why I'm just curious how it goes if people try to use the flyer.

    I'm not 100% familiar with the Bland case. Obviously just from the video you can see the cop overreacted big time. The woman was being polite for the most part & the questions she was asking were legitimate. I would be on board for that cop being fired.

    That being said, how she actually died I have no idea. People getting the wrong times down doesn't prove murder or suicide either way. Just proves people can have bad memories or be dumb. It's like replay in sports, it was called suicide first and so far from what I've looked up from your post CB, I can't see enough evidence yet to overturn that call. Hopefully more evidence will come out to verify the call was right or wrong with no questions.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Mar 14, 2016, at 8:39 AM
  • Nobody on this planet does their job 100% of the time to the 100% fullest of their abilities. To expect police to do that just because they are police is na*ve. So the whole fraud thing is just ridiculous. Also the fact they mis-documented something or didn't do a check when they should isn't automatically grounds for firing or outrage.

    Now the fact she died because of lack of checking, then that officer should be fired. If you screw up at work & cost the business $5 you just get reprimanded, you lose $10,000 you get fired. If they'd a come in & saved her, that cop would get reprimanded but not fired. But since she died, they got to go.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Mar 14, 2016, at 2:48 PM
  • Even the Marine Corps screws up every now and then. Seal Team 6 even crashed a helicopter that cost 10's of millions of tax payer money.

    Now they definitely screw up a lot less than you or I do at our jobs, but nobody is perfect my friend.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 15, 2016, at 8:09 AM
  • The USMC erred when they treated Lewis "Chesty" Puller, the best combat officer ever, poorly at the end of his career. He was punished for his blunt honesty.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Mar 16, 2016, at 1:36 PM
  • I have no problem with a cop using that to look up a date or someone their kid is dating. I mean when I started dating my wife I looked her up on & Facebook & anything else I could find, as did she & even her parents lol. If I'd had the type of access that cops do, you can bet I would have checked that too in order to make sure I wasn't get involved with psychos.

    Now I don't think they should be giving that info to other people, especially not unstable people like that jilted husband was. Or use it to stalk random waitresses I thought were cute. Using it as a tool to break the law should be punished extremely harshly! Add years on to any sentence they get for the crime itself.

    But just for some quick back ground info on someone you or your family is getting involved with, I just consider that a perk of the job.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Mar 17, 2016, at 8:39 AM
  • -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Mar 17, 2016, at 4:02 PM

    Well lookie there, gangbangers ruining our country. So much for living in a safe neighborhood/town/city/country!!!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Mar 17, 2016, at 4:04 PM

    Found this website...thought of one special blogger who post here all that time. Wondered if they posted the top entry on that site??

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Mar 17, 2016, at 5:39 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Mar 17, 2016, at 11:50 PM
  • Interesting video, Eieio.

    I was expecting the cop to throw the guy on the ground and arrest him at any second. I reckon that was where things were headed before the Sargent came along.

    I feel like that video did a pretty fine job of showing the "I don't care what the supreme court says or what the law actually is" attitude of many police today, "I can order you to do whatever I want."

    I believe that cop actually said things very similar to that during the video.

    Of course, one is left to wonder what happens if the cameraman with the drone was black, or perhaps not as polite in his refusal to follow orders.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 6:57 AM
  • -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 10:33 AM
  • You know CB, if "Black Lives Matter" so much as we are told 1,000 times a day these days. Maybe they should spend more time on the gangs that illegally kill thousands of black people in this country every year over the "gang" as you say who illegally kills maybe a few hundred.

    Not saying should leave the cops who break the law alone, they should be in jail for life, but what you are doing by putting all the infancies on cops & completely ignoring the real gangs who kill thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people every year is like saying you want to cure cancer, so lets start with curing the cold.

    Colds suck & I hope it's curred, but the millions of dollars & speaches should be made to the disease that kills, not the one that makes your day suck. Maybe if the black lives matter people would spend all their money & influence & protest to stop gangs in their neighborhoods more black lives would be around to matter.

    That's just my view, I like to fix the big problem before the little problem. i'll fix a huge hole in my roof before I'd worry about that dripping faucet.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 11:33 AM
  • Understand your post exactly as you meant oldschool and couldn't agree more with your sound and logical post.

    P.s. don't worry about coldbeerbear(bigfatracistguyreturns) trying to paint you as racist...he is the biggest racist of all. As a matter of fact if you combined all our racist tendencies together it would add up to just a miniscule fraction of Coldbeerbear racist whinology!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 1:29 PM
  • You do a nice job of trying to deflect the point when you don't have a good argument for it.

    My point in saying "if" was based on your feeling of lives. If your slogan is "Black Lives Matter" than why are you being picky about which of those lives matter? The movement is picking & choosing whose lives matter more than others. Clearly it's not the lives of the bloods & crips because they kill each other constantly & there are no protest, sit ins or marches against that. So clearly those lives mean less to the "Black Lives Matter" movement than the few dozens of people who are killed illegally by crooked cops. So I guess the slogan should be "Black Lives Matter: Some More Than Others".

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 2:29 PM
  • Oldschool17 I will have to disagree with you on one point..."a few dozen"????... you will be hard pressed to find a dozen of those cases. Not talking about justified shootings by the justice department and our courts like Ferguson. Unjustified shootings were law enforcement are found guilty of murder by the courts/jurors are rare. The few that are on the news can be counted on one hand. Now someone else whining their unsubstantiated opinion will shortly follow my post with a hand full of links to Huffington Post news articles and most of those articles will be based on opinion as well. NOT A "FEW DOZEN"

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Mar 18, 2016, at 3:23 PM
  • I just wonder if some of you are ok with the lives of the good cops that have been lost because of the rhetoric about the few "bad cops".

    There are always a few bad apples in a bunch and we can't stop them all but let's support our police because they are doing a job that many of us would not be willing to do. So is it worth the trade off to nationalize the actions of a bad cop to stir tensions in certain ethnic groups that may get a good cop killed.

    Why not focus on the real problem of the amount of homicides that happen in our cities every day. The cops aren't killing all those people. They are killing each other and if a cop does kill a thug let's call him or her for what they are and not jump on the bandwagon that cops are killing people unjustly. I say "All live matter".

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Sat, Mar 19, 2016, at 5:53 PM
  • Wow so the man who wants to treat terrorist who kill thousands of people with dignity & respect is perfectly fine with cops getting murdered because hey, its their job. Also aren'tu always bashing me for victim blaming yet now "they made their bed & have to lie in it".

    Hippocrite anyone??

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sun, Mar 20, 2016, at 5:36 PM
  • Because "CBB" is a terrorist sympathizer (besides being the biggest racist) and also a self admitted felon (have to go back to their former posts as Bigfatguyreturns before being banned from posting and all their hateful rhetoric posts being wiped from existence). That's why their hate filled inspired posts don't mean anything and hold no weight with anyone of consequence.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Sun, Mar 20, 2016, at 6:49 PM
  • Sorry to change the subject, but I wanted to call people's attention to a paid advertisement that was in Friday's D-N on the Perspective page. This was to correct a Letter to the Editor which had apparently been butchered when published in the paper, and which the paper refused to print a correction. Sad to say, the writer had to actually pay for an ad to correct the paper's errors.

    Unfortunately, this is not the first time the paper has edited Letters for no reason other than because the Editor thought she knew more about the subject than the letter's author. A few weeks ago, there was a Letter (from a current volunteer and former Shelter director) about the successes of the local Animal Shelter which included the comment that, due to the high placement rate, the shelter met the generally accepted criteria for being a "no kill" shelter, something to be proud of. The Editor deleted that section for fear it might cause the readers to "misconstrue" and "assume" things. I guess she figures Marshall readers are too ignorant to trust them to properly interpret a letter.

    I understand the possible need to edit letters for length or if something slanderous or vulgar is included, but to delete something because you fear readers might misconstrue it is arrogant and unprofessional. If really worried about something like that, the paper could actually do some research and print an article to accompany the Letter. The Editor needs to issue a "mea culpa" and become more professional in doing her job.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Mon, Mar 21, 2016, at 10:17 AM
  • Interesting...KCPS superintendent in charge of district to be paid $225,000. Not sure he is getting paid what he is worth according to local logic. 16,700 students, 2300 teachers and administrators, approximately 2000 support staff, facilities consisting of 26 elementary schools, 8 high schools, 2 middle schools, 2 early learning centers, and a career technical school.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Mar 24, 2016, at 8:20 PM
  • That's how cashiers are always taught. They never gave a good reason for it, just said this his how we teach you to do it. I agree I would prefer change first than bills! One of those minor annoyances.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Mar 29, 2016, at 1:21 PM
  • Use a credit or debit card if it bothers you that

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Thu, Mar 31, 2016, at 10:34 AM
  • As a concerned citizen of Saline County, I have concerns regarding the tax levy increase on the April 5th ballot. As Roger Blakely has pointed out, we need to evaluate where the money and resources are being utilized. How competent is our current administration and board?


    The district will have four instructional coaches for the 2015-16 school year. Jim Papreck, Director of Data Analysis and Dissemination. These are new positions and have never been posted.

    The administrative staff made a top 10 list of budget priorities as follows: 1. Implement TLC program (was Satellite program) to include Alternative Education, ISS, and OSS, moving out of the old Central Office, and phasing in elementary and middle school 2. Remove trailers that house Kindergarten and 5th Grade 3. Increase salaries for teachers 4. Implementation of instructional coaches 5. Additional maintenance person 6. An extra English teacher at MHS 7. Additional elementary teachers 8. An additional nurse at BMS and MHS and increase salaries of school nurses. 9. Additional security officer 10. Tennis courts and seating.

    Of these 10 priorities, few have been met. Nurses have been told that while their work in valued there will be no increase in their salary.

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:21 PM
  • June 23, 2015

    They also approved to give Jim Heinzler, Lance Tobin, Janine Machholz, Rendy Maupin, Paige Clouse, Renee Vaught, Susan Angelhow, Derek Lark, and Terri Porter a $1,000 raise.

    They also approved a contract amount of $63,000 for Amy Heuman and a $5,000 stipend for Kathy Cook for being administrator in the TLC Building.

    October 20, 2015

    Dr. Maher will contact Patron Insight to see if they would be willing to work with local organizations to spearhead the survey for about $16,000.

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:22 PM
  • This definitely is going against one of the top priorities listed prior by the administration. And does anyone else wonder how much more cash flow our superintendent requires?

    January 26, 2016

    The district has postponed moving trailers at this time due to the cost and waiting on more information regarding the Hab Center property. The board has agreed to hire an assistant superintendent for next year. Dr. Maher has been talking with Missouri Valley College to have an aspiring administrator program in Marshall.

    Three bids were received to rent the district's farm land. On a motion by Mr. Guthrey, seconded by Mr. Hemeyer, the board unanimously approved to accept the bid from Ken Gieringer in the amount of $4,225 which will be paid in October.

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:25 PM
  • February 23, 2016

    The following were approved for employment: Grace Durham, Director of Special Services, as of the 2016-17 school year; Dr. Terry Lorenz, Assistant Superintendent, as of the 2016-17 and 2017 - 2018 school years; and nullified the current contract of Dr. Carol Maher and issued a new three year contract at her current salary.

    Anybody else wondering who is the real Director of Special Services for next year?


    They approved the employment of Rendy Maupin, Director of Special Services, as of the 2016-17 school year.

    The district announced Wednesday, March 2, that position would be filled by current Slater Schools Superintendent Terry Lorenz, effective July 1. Lorenz and the district agreed to a two-year contract with a salary of $108,000 for the first year and $110,000 for the second.

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:28 PM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    While the board voted to approve the hiring of Durham and then Maupin for the position, both of them turned it down. Superintendent Maher then convinced Porter to return for another year, during which she will train her replacement.
  • 3/16/16

    Dr. Maher is leaving on vacation over spring break and will be back on Wednesday the 30th. On Thursday and Friday she will attend the superintendents' conference at the Lake and drive from there to the airport to attend the ASCD national conference in Atlanta. (WHO pays for this?)

    They also approved the employment of Terri Porter, Director of Special Services, at a salary of $100,000 and Stephanie Heinzler, (Popular Last Name) Speech Pathologist, placing her on the salary schedule, plus an additional $6,000 and to increase the pay of the district's other speech pathologists by $3,000 for the 2016-17 school year.

    So now we know who the Director of Special Services is, unless it changes at the next meeting! ;)

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:31 PM
  • So as I said I'm a concerned citizen who believes that the school's deserve better than they currently have. However, with the addition of new unposted positions, a top-heavy salaried Central Office Administration, and the lack of holding true to some of the top 10 priorities of the administration for things that would have been in the best interest of the youth they serve, I will have to vote against the levy. If I could be sure that the children's best interests were being put first my vote would be yes! It's been a long time since Kids Come First in Marshall, MO!

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Sun, Apr 3, 2016, at 7:36 PM
  • Get out and vote today! Tax levy increase for the schools and the Moving Marshall Forward candidates for city council. We have the opportunity to make positive changes in Marshall.

    -- Posted by sixty on Tue, Apr 5, 2016, at 10:17 AM
  • Good comment, sixty. You certainly wouldn't know it was election day by looking at the home page of the MDN website or at the last edition of the paper.

    Many folks I have spoken with today apparently don't even know it's election day.

    Local public entities love low voter turnout.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Apr 5, 2016, at 1:59 PM
    Response by Sarah Reed:
    Here are links to several, but not all, articles pertaining to the April 5 election, including video footage. While it may not have been front and center on our home page Tuesday, it was given as much publicity as past elections and included on the front page of Monday's print edition. We love hearing new ideas, so feel free to call, email me or visit if you have coverage ideas for future elections.

  • I happily voted today. Voted for our students because kids are our future. I hope everyone got out to vote!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 5, 2016, at 8:19 PM
  • I'm not taking a position pro or con on school management, but has anyone noticed that, every time there is a school district issue on the ballot or any other issue regarding the district, one gentleman sends a letter to the editor purporting to 'answer questions' about the issue? These letters are obviously not answers to questions, but are not so subtle slams against the district, which then causes the superintendent to write a letter clarifying what the gentleman said. Most of these have to do with money. This is very interesting considering this gentleman was a top level district administrator who was forced to leave the district due to his own mismanagement of his financial responsibilities. To see evidence of this, just look to the west of the Career Center and you will see an empty concrete slab which is the only visible reminder of this incident. I realize the paper invites letters to the editor, but perhaps this is a case where the editor needs to consider the source as one of sour grapes and not truly to 'answer questions'.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Wed, Apr 6, 2016, at 10:31 AM
  • All I am saying is around $400,000 for our esteemed Central Office staff next year! Wow, it should be another stellar year being ran by a rock star or a group of them!

    -- Posted by GardenFlower on Wed, Apr 6, 2016, at 11:00 AM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    The salaries for school administrative are high, but they are high across the state. They have to be high in order to successfully hire and retain personnel for the jobs. Superintendent salaries for districts with enrollment from approximately 2,000-2,500 (Marshall's enrollment for 2015 was 2,457) in Missouri range from $117,500 - $219,500. Assistant Superintendents in those same districts make anywhere from $90,000 - $144,300, and many of those districts are paying within that range apiece for multiple Assistant Superintendents while Marshall will have just one. Both Dr. Maher ($159,884 in 2015) and Dr. Lorenz's ($108,000 for the 2016-2017 school year) salaries are on the low to middle end of those salary ranges.
  • I guess the message of my previous post below was not KC superintendent to our Marshall superintendent and explain after comparing the student and staff population and building numbers that the Marshall superintendent warrants the salary given.

    What is the salary of the Sedalia superintendent 30 miles south of us? Don't know, well here you go!

    Interesting...KCPS superintendent in charge of district to be paid $225,000. Not sure he is getting paid what he is worth according to local logic. 16,700 students, 2300 teachers and administrators, approximately 2000 support staff, facilities consisting of 26 elementary schools, 8 high schools, 2 middle schools, 2 early learning centers, and a career technical school.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Apr 6, 2016, at 5:58 PM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    The KCPS Superintendent Allan Tunis is serving on an interim basis and also has two assistant superintendents he shares duties with.

    As for Sedalia, the enrollment there is roughly twice that of Marshall. Their superintendent had a salary of $132,500 in 2015. However, they also have two assistant superintendents making $114,748 and $99,589.


    Sorry sir you are behind on your news. Dr.Mark Bedell is the new KCPS Superintendent!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Apr 7, 2016, at 5:18 PM
  • And by the way the Marshall School District also used to have two assistant superintendents and a superintendent. The kicker is the assistant superintendents, Mrs. Goodman made $85,942, Mr. Radford made $82,218, and the superintendent Dr. Gordon made $109,062.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Apr 7, 2016, at 5:36 PM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    That is in accordance with what I was suggesting. Generally, in districts where you have fewer assistant superintendents, the superintendents salary might be expected to be higher because they are sharing less of their duties with other administrators. The fair salary for somebody overseeing a district with a right-hand assistant and a left-hand assistant might not be the same as what a fair salary would be for a superintendent overseeing the same size district without the same amount of assistance. And the fair salary for somebody overseeing a smaller district by themselves or with one assistant might be closer to or greater than the fair salary for a somebody overseeing a larger district, but with more help. Deciphering what is fair compensation is very subjective.
  • Making comparisons of school administrator salaries based solely on school enrollment is short minded. So our logic to justify Marshall's superintendent's salary should be based on a range of student enrollments that include school districts like Affton and Potosi? Don't they have significantly more financial resources than we do? Where does this "you get what you pay for" mentality concerning leadership come from? It's all the rage!

    Arron, are you suggesting that Sedalia's and KCPS' superintendent's are justifiably lower because they have 2 assistants sharing the duties with them? That logic would suggest our superintendent should take a cut in pay. I mean to make everything fair and proportionate. Right?

    I think Sedalia may be a very reasonable example.

    Sedalia: enrollment 4795, 3 chief administrators = 1 administrator per 1598 students = cost of administration of $72 per pupil.

    Marshall: enrollment 2457, 2 chief administrators = 1 administrator per 1228 students = cost of administration of $109 per pupil.

    I don't know if this link will work for the readers. Core data about superintendent's salaries straight from DESE (2015). Moberly, Mexico, Fulton, Kirksville.. they are all listed.

    -- Posted by Amperage on Fri, Apr 8, 2016, at 12:21 AM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    Up until now, Maher has been performing those chief administrative duties by herself. However, you may have a fair point in that enhancing the duties of the former Director of Business Operations position to include a wide array of superintendent-level responsibilities and raising the salary for the new position $44,000 more than the old position, thus relieving Maher of some of her duties, might mean that a fair salary for her next year might be less than what it was this past year. If that's something the public feels strongly about, they should voice those concerns to representatives of the school board.
  • Got a LOT of Tenure, not much Merit.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Apr 8, 2016, at 8:55 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Apr 8, 2016, at 9:20 PM
  • "TAG" YOUR IT!!

    Did everyone get raptured to Heaven?? Come back, where is everyone? I need someone read my whiny post!!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Wed, Apr 13, 2016, at 6:59 AM
  • They lowered it since you were in school, when I was in school it was 59% & below was an F (that went for college too). Just quick FYI since you asked, it could be different now.

    Number is little misleading, consider when you click more about test scores link, only 18% are below basic, while the remaining 82% are basic or higher. So last I knew in school, C was average (basic). So that means 82% of the school is a C or higher.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Apr 13, 2016, at 3:22 PM
  • We need to end the death penalty. OS, you want to execute drug addicts, require a reproductive permit, allow torture, allow illegal searches and blame the poor for their situation. I am glad that I don't live in the world you envision. Tricky Dick's war on drugs has filled our prisons but drugs are still here and always will be. We lead the world in incarcerations. Does that mean that we have more bad people than other countries? Does it mean that we have the best law enforcement? I think it is because our so called justice system is seriously flawed.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Thu, Apr 14, 2016, at 12:08 PM
  • Is it so bad to ask people to take responsibility for their own actions & situations? Yes I blame everyone for being in whatever situation they are in. I know someone in the area who makes more in a month than all of us posting here make in a year combined. Yet he drives a 20 year old truck. Meanwhile I know dozens of people making less than any of us driving brand new vehicles and then complain they don't have money. That's just one example of course.

    When did I ever say I wanted to allow illegal searches?

    Yes I am all for the death penalty, I just want to make it cheaper & more humane. What's more instant & painless than bullet to the head? I'm trying to fix our prison problem. If the punishment for 3rd strike is death and not just more prison you would think that slows down the crime rate right? I mean most of those guys are so use to prison going back is no big deal. Then we have to pay for them for 40 years or more. I'd rather us pay for a bullet & keep that cell open.

    I'm all for torture when it comes to national security. Do I want to torture random guy for drug info, no. Do I want to torture someone who is believed to know about a bombing that could kill thousands, ABSOLUTELY!

    I agree the war on drugs didn't work because the punishment wasn't harsh enough. The reward for those guys are worth the risk because the risk isn't that bad for them. Myself prison is scary as heck & keeps me from doing illegal things. But clearly for 4 time busted druggie prison isn't scary. So need to step up the punishment, death penalty does that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 14, 2016, at 1:36 PM
  • One flaw in your plan.

    There are many people, bad people, who life has led down a path to a point that they really don't care if they live or die anymore. The hardened thugs and derelicts.

    So, how much of a deterrent is a death sentence to the person who just plain old doesn't give a crap about themselves or others? Essentially none.

    This, in essence, is the basis for civilized man inventing religions, gods, and the concept of heaven and hell. You need to create a fate worse than death (burning in hell for eternity, for example) in order to get those who have nothing to live for and no fear of death to follow the rules, whatever they may be, so they can enjoy the eternal rewards of conforming to societies current norms as handed down from those gods.

    Now, I reckon in Oldschools world then if someone has no fear of death and nothing to live for we should just go ahead and bump them off.

    Problem is, how do you identify the potential murder or rapist before the crime? It's not possible.

    So do we monitor everyone's mental health and then try and decide who the ones that don't care anymore are? Whew, what could go wrong there?

    The Minority Report was fiction.

    So, what we do is punishment after the crime, which is retribution, not prevention.

    Also, statistics tell me that most murders are crimes of passion; snap decisions in the heat of the moment. It has repeatedly been shown that the vast majority of criminals do not take the time to think about the consequences of their actions.

    So capital punishment is simply retribution. An eye for an eye. A life for a life. Very Biblical.

    It may be a deterrent for thinking people, but thinking people rarely violent crimes.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Apr 15, 2016, at 1:40 PM
  • Very good smart comment SD!

    I agree for those people who aren't scared of death there is nothing we can do but react after the fact. And yes that is to bump them off. If they don't care about death & have shown to be violent & not care about other human life than do the world a favor & save the rest of us the money & get rid of them.

    Yes it's after the fact but why pay for those people to be in jail for the next 30 years?

    There is nothing society can do about the non thinking people. The people who just kill cause it's fun or live the gang life because it's their dream to be an OG. Those people are simply a waste of humanity and really just need to be eliminated as they are found.

    The rest of us smart thinking actual human beings, should perfectly understand the punishments for our actions. Then if anyone breaks the law they know what their punishment is and nobody should feel sorry for them when they get punished.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Apr 15, 2016, at 1:53 PM
  • Wow is right. Let's teach people that killing is wrong by killing people. Is it also safe to assume that you support 'the donald'?

    -- Posted by k_m on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 12:10 PM
  • Actually no I don't support Trump. Like the rest of them he's got some good & bad points. If you read any old post you'd know I'm all aboard the Morgan Freeman for President train, either that or Frank Underwood, both have experience in the position and fit well.

    You're right, we should just give all criminals stern lectures & make them sit in a corner and think about what they did wrong. I mean surely that would keep a pedophile from assaulted kids anymore, and surely a murderer would never kill anyone else after a talking too like that.

    I mean men like this guy below clearly deserve nothing but our utmost respect and fairness. I mean frankly I think he should have been set free, he was just drunk & didn't mean too. How dare he be so harshly punished when I'm sure he's sorry for what he did.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 1:33 PM
  • I always find it funny when people talk about how there are too many people in jail. Yet don't like the death penalty which gets people out of jail. I also find it funny, when talking about too many people in jail, those people always blame the government. Last time I checked, you have to commit crimes to go to prison am I right? A funny idea I have, and bare with me because it's crazy off the wall but you know how I like those kind of ideas. If people would stop breaking the laws we have (disagree or not doesn't matter, law is law) than maybe we'd have fewer people in prison?

    I know it's a completely radical idea to think that someone being in prison for breaking a law is at fault for being prison, but I think I can do some research and back that up with facts if I need too. I think there was a study done that said if you never break the law, you are less likely to be put in jail compared to someone who breaks the law. Insane I know, victim blaming I know CB. How dare I blame a person for being in jail after they broke the a law which stated the punishment was going to jail.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 4:07 PM
  • The main issue with the death penalty is finding someone on death row was innocent or even worse someone being excuted and finding out after the fact they were innocent. If you could verify guilt with 100% certainty then I am all for the death penalty.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 6:50 PM
  • Some people deserve prison...some don't.

    Some get it, some don't.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 7:23 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 7:28 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 7:39 PM
  • Nothing in this world controlled by man is 100% accurate. I guarantee someone has been executed who was innocent & someone will be in the future. I agree it sucks, but what can you do about? Prison itself has the same issue. There are always stories of people being released after 30 years in jail. It happens, it sucks and wish it didn't & hopefully technology is slowing that down. But does that mean you want to get rid of prison too?

    People are on death row for decades appeals. It's not like they say death & walk outside and do it. They have plenty of appeals & chances to prove their innocence. Someone will always slip the cracks, it will suck when it happens & those people will be sued & lose jobs over it. But the risk is worth it to clear up a lot more of the trash.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 8:26 AM
  • If certain people don't care about human life, than why should anyone care about their life? If you don't think people who rape & kill babies are trash than I guess we just are at different views on things.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 11:00 AM
  • What percentage of currently incarcerated folks do you reckon are "people who rape & kill babies"?

    I am fairly sure no one wants to see baby killers go free. I am also fairly sure that it isn't baby killers who are causing prison overcrowding.

    Historically we used to lock up people for inter-racial dating and homosexuality. Were we right to do that?

    How do we justify the fact that in our system you are four times as likely to go to prison for a given crime if you are poor or a person of color?

    The rich white kid gets off with probation or a fine for DWI, drug possession or sales, assault, theft, or such crimes the majority of the time. The poor black kid goes to jail.

    How about that "affluenza" rich white kid who killed four people in a drunk driving crash and got probation. Think a poor black kid in the same situation would get the same sentence?

    But, hey, in some folks world we aren't jailing those poor folks fast enough, I reckon.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 11:57 AM
  • How about the black man that gets a more draconian sentence for using his form of cocaine than his white lawyer would get for using powder cocaine?

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 1:29 PM
  • Talking about crimes in the past that are no longer on the books is pointless.

    The race card, not even going to touch that because there is no good answer. If I say your right than justice system should be shut down. If I say your wrong than I'm racist. Lose lose situation.

    The rest of the cases you used involve money which yes matters. If you can afford better attorneys to spend more time on your case than you have a better chance to find loop holes or other ways to get out. Better attorneys cost more for a reason! Whether you are black/white doesn't matter when money is involved. If you can afford the best attorneys you have a much higher chance to get off for the same crime.

    Now like most of us, I'm not rich. If I committed a felony I would only be able to afford a public defender. And my chances of getting off with a public defender are slim to none. Thus I choose not to commit a felony since I know my chances of not going to jail if caught are slim to none.

    You can not like that and say "it's not fair". Well life isn't fair. Money buys better things. Whether that's attorneys, cars, food or whatever. Usually the more money you have the better you can afford. There is nothing new about this. So yes, having money increases your odds of staying out of jail. You know what increases your odds even more than that though....DON'T COMMIT THE CRIME!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 2:19 PM
  • Also I'm not talking about executing petty drug users. Now if you've been busted over & over again & are turning into a life long inmate than ok we can talk about that.

    I'm only talking about executing human waste. And no I'm not inventing who that is, I don't know many people who would stick up for someone who is spending their entire life in prison. To make it simple I'd get rid of life in prison. If you get life without paraole well that means execution. I mean a life sentence is death penalty, just long time away one. Why pay for them to live 50 years when can just get it over with after a few years of appeals are done.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM
  • So then in your view, we have 5 times more bad guys and criminals, per capita, in the United States than any other country in the world, eh?

    And nobody is saying the "justice system should be shut down." What most are saying is that we need some new attitudes and significant attention paid to prison overcrowding, mandatory minimum sentences, racial bias in sentencing (and policing in many areas), poverty, and how best to deal with and hopefully rehabilitate offenders.

    Does your car have a switch instead of an accelerator pedal, Oldschool, because there seems to be no room for anything but 'all or nothing' in your worldview?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Apr 20, 2016, at 7:36 AM
  • No SD, in my world view you are responsible for your own actions. Why does everything you want seem to blame everyone else for someone screwing up? I mean just look at how you want to change the prison system.

    No where in that did you say "figure out better ways to get people off drugs" or "figure out better ways to get people to stop breaking the law". No, all your ideas are "lets be nicer to people who break the law".

    I'm sorry, I was raised if you're man enough to do the crime than you're man enough to do the time.

    So you want to get rid of mandatory minimums. In other words you want people to get a lot more slap on the wrist. Because nothing says "don't do that again" like go sit in time out.

    Racial bias, I'm sure it happens in some places. Those courts need to be hammered & judges fired if it's proven true. But it's not a systematic thing that well your black you get 5 yrs, your white, you get 1 yrs. It's never that simple & once people realize that then they can start fixing the specific examples. Que CB with some "white privelage" or other racist comment about me soon.

    Poverty, here I go making people mad again with non-PC talk. You don't want to be in poverty, then get out of it. Get a 2nd or 3rd job, do better in school, study something & get so good at it that someone pays you a lot to do it. Sell those wrap or candle or other at home things. Can't find it here, then look elsewhere & when you find it move. There are lots of ways to get money in the United States if you want to work for it. Also don't spend more than you make. If you're poor, you probably shouldn't be a pack a day habit. You probably shouldn't be a handle a day boozer. You probably shouldn't be on drugs or have 3 cars & the most expensive cell phone plan out there. You shouldn't be eating McD's or Taco Bell.

    In America, your life is your life. What you choose to do with it is all on you. The fact you guys don't hold anyone accountable for their life choices boggles my mind, it really does.

    Let me ask you SD, how do you rehab someone who doesn't want rehab? We have plenty of rehab programs both in & out of prison for the people who want it to take advantage of it. How do you force the others to rehab when they don't want to?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Apr 20, 2016, at 8:44 AM
  • Did I call the CB comeback or what? I mean right on cue almost exactly as I predicted. Got to love predictability in the world.

    You are right CB, every single court case is exactly the same & there are no differences at all except for race. It is purely a black/white issue with absolutely nothing else to each case. How could I have missed that?

    I told you why rich people get off more, that's just common sense CB. If you can afford better attorneys, you're more likely to get better results. If better attorneys didn't help, then what would be the point of even having defense attorneys in the first place?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Apr 20, 2016, at 4:17 PM
  • OS,

    CBB and I agree that your recent rants are balderdash.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Apr 20, 2016, at 6:07 PM
  • Balderdash, I like that. I can appreciate old school language.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 8:16 AM
  • Life is just so simple, I reckon. I mean, if you don't have any money just go get some somewhere.

    Apparently it is possible to support yourself by selling wrapping paper door-to-door. And if you need more money to pay your bills, just work 16 to 24 hours a day at those jobs that are available everywhere. I am sure your three employers will gladly arrange their schedules around the schedule of your other employers. Well, and who needs any time off, or any contact with their spouse, children, or other family.

    Yep, America just has piles of money laying around for those who are not lazy to stuff in their pockets. If you happen to have been born with an 85 IQ, well all you need to do is do better in school, or become an expert at something and the world is your oyster!

    And of course, all poor folks are smokers, drinkers, and have fancy cars and cell phones.

    These posts really make me curious about where Oldschool lives and what his circle of acquaintances looks like. All the poor folks must have some nice rides and phones, and all be drunken pot smokers who blow their money on cigarettes.

    By the way, where in any post I ever made does it say "lets be nicer to people who break the law'" or "let's just give people a slap on the wrist," or a single thing about "just look at how you want to change the prison system."

    Heck, Oldschool, judges don't even like the Mandatory Minimums we got from the Reagan Era Drug Abuse Act. It sure isn't hard to find plenty of legal scholars who feel that Mandatory Minimums were created by politicians for chest thumping purposes, not by prosecutors and judges.

    Then, of course, there is the refusal to acknowledge that people of color are arrested more often, convicted more often, and sentenced to longer penalties for the exact same crimes as white folks in America.

    The facts are there, but in a totally racist manner, you keep trying to state that it is the Black or Hispanic population's fault this occurs because more of them are criminals. A totally unsupportable, biased, narrow minded opinion which you are entitled to, but so very wrong about.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 8:51 AM
  • Sounds to me like oldschool is either trolling, or he/she is completely clueless in his ideals.

    Can't do anything about injustice, racism is just a fact of life. Poverty is always the fault of lazy, smoking, drunk welfare queens. And the prison system is over-crowded because we're not killing enough people.

    I refuse to justify any of this ignorance with a response. Educate yourself, then come back and try again.

    -- Posted by k_m on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 9:03 AM
  • If you were born with an 85 IQ you will need to work harder than someone born with a 150 IQ. Yes that is pretty simple math there. Sucks for the 85 IQ, but same time it's not the 150 IQ fault.

    Actually yes it really is that simple SD. There are companies with all kinds of hours of operation always hiring people. Especially this time of year you can throw in yard work & construction jobs that have weekend & different hours.

    Now how you choose to spend your time is purely up to you. If you choose for more time off, hey that's fine, but you won't have as much money. That's a choice you make. If you want to spend more time with your family, that's a choice that again means less money. If you wanted more money, than you should have chosen to wait a little longer to have the family. Again, choices lead to choices. Nobody forced someone making minimum wage to have kids. Now it's perfectly up to them if they want to have those kids, but don't use them as a crutch. I could have had kids 10 years earlier than I did, I couldn't afford them so I waited. It is possible to wait a little while. Again I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who made poor choices in life.

    When I was working two jobs & swimming in bills I didn't expect anyone to feel sorry for me or hand me anything. I chose to make my life better so I cut back my spending and worked as many hours as I could. Did it suck, heck yes it sucked! I had to turn down fun trips & nights out. I couldn't go to games or other fun things. Life sucked for about two years. But it was short term misery for long term gain. Life is very long, I chose to be miserable for a short term because I knew it would make for long term success. If someone choses the opposite, hey it's their life, but don't expect sympathy.

    Pretty sure I never said all poor people smoke, drink or have fancy phones. But yes I do deal with a lot of lower middle class to poor people & yes a lot of them do those things. It's very funny to me to see someone complain about money while talking on an iPhone & smoking cigarettes. You want to tell them, there is money right there. Stop smoking probably saves $5 a day. Times 30, that's $150/month. Get rid of the iPhone & just get cheap go phone. Can get those for $30 a month. That saves at least $70/month. There is $220/month right there. Got cable? There is another $60/month you could save. It's not always about what you make, sometimes it's what do you spend. And yes, I can point to at least 50 of those people in the last two months.

    If so many people hate mandatory minimums, why haven't they changed it in 30 years? That's 3 decades of new politicians, judges & voters. In 30 years that law hasn't changed yet EVERYONE hates it? Personally I have no opinion one way or another on it. If they want to rescind the rule that's fine with me.

    I never said minorities don't get arrested more. I simply said it wasn't as simple as your black you go to jail your white you get set free end of story. I mean if it was that simple I got lots of laws I'd be happy to break and get away with. I mean really if it's that simple why don't all white people just do whatever we want?

    And besides, the real issue is that whether they get arrested more or not, THEY STILL DID THE CRIME THEY GOT ARRRESTED FOR! Deflecting the story of "well he got away with it & I went to jail" doesn't forgive the fact you did the crime in the 1st place. You don't want to go to jail or get punished, DON'T DO THE CRIME!! Lets say hypothetically speaking, that it is totally unequal so the world changes & everything is equal tomorrow. Well none of those people of color will go free tomorrow. It just means 5 times as many white people will start joining them in prison. Which hey, fine with me because I'm not one of them so if they go to jail so be it.

    So going forward whenever you guys want to fix prisons being overpopulated, make sure you figure in 5 times the amount of prisoners that you're calling for. Gonna need to build a lot more prisons. Guards & staffing for those people. Not to mention more parole officers & other people in general to handle the large jump. Just figure it into your math.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 9:57 AM
  • K_M, welcome to the discussion. Trolling is arguing with someone just because you want to argue with them even if you agree with them. Personally I believe all I'm saying. That's what makes it a good discussion. If everyone just agreed with everything than the world would be boring.

    Personally I truly enjoy the debates with SD, CB & DR. Do we disagree, yep we do on a lot of things. But it's nice to see the other side. I'm sure like me, those guys surround themselves with like minded people. Most people tend to hang out with people who are like them & think the same way. Thus, you don't hear the other side very often. I think it's good to discuss topics such as these with the opposition to see where they stand and why they stand there & to try to understand where they come from. Can still disagree completely, but least it's nice to see what the other side is thinking.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 10:02 AM
  • Politicians desiring to look "tough on crime" brought us the act that created mandatory minimum sentences.

    In the 30 years since, any politician who suggested that they were a bad idea was met with the Oldschool attitude of "you just want to molly-coddle criminals" and used statements like "my opponent wants to let rapists out of jail so they can come after your daughter!"

    Judges have no say in this. They can actually be sanctioned for not following them. Obama's justice department is the first to back off on that.

    And regarding the voters input? Well in case you hadn't noticed, the party of mandatory minimums is the same party that convinces their followers to vote based on things like abortion, guns, and homophobia. It is the very party that can't wait for the opponent to bring up relaxing sentencing laws so they can say.....

    "Those dang liberals want to let those rapists out of jail so they can come after your daughters! They want to put criminals on the street, next door to your kids school!"

    In case you hadn't noticed, the "tough on crime" thing is a position you have to take in America to buy votes from guys like you, Oldschool. Sadly, most of those voters are just as clueless.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 1:16 PM
  • As I said mandatory minimums for petty stuff doesn't matter to me. If voters want to keep it than keep it, if they want to get rid of it get rid of it. Now rapist, murders, assaulted and the likes of them, yeah those people can be as punished as harshly as possible. Now if someone is to dumb to figure out there is a difference between those two type of criminals than is there really any help for them?

    Also just to make sure I don't get lumped in with them, I'm all for abortion (should be easier frankly) and I say gay people should be allowed to be just as happy or miserable as the rest of us. Guns I'm in the middle on. I think we have good laws that just need be more enforced & extend the laws to gun shows. That will allow everyone who qualifies and wants a legal gun to get it. Now if that person goes crazy, well that person would go crazy with anything. As you've stated, the Minority Report was a fake movie, you can't predict the future.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 21, 2016, at 2:25 PM
  • Historical perspective? Do tell ole wise one of the internet.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Apr 22, 2016, at 8:14 AM
  • Well since it has to deal with laws than i'd say our law making officials which are voted in by us. The whole reason we elect them is to do all that on our behalf. Don't like how they do it, vote them out. If they keep getting voted in than I guess that means the majority must like what their doing.

    I could come up with better ways but none of them will ever happen so that's the system the founders gave us & that's the system we will continue to have.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sat, Apr 23, 2016, at 8:54 PM
  • Who else would draw the line? It's not you or I.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Apr 25, 2016, at 10:03 AM
  • Settlements are never an admission of guilt as much as their an admission of get the story out of the news. Settlements usually involve deals that say you can't talk about things & you can't pursue any further issues. I think this was more of get the story done than admit we committed a crime. I don't think it was a crime, I think it was an unfortunate incident that was just a bad combination of things that cost a child their life. So there was no crime, but rather than fight that anymore & keep it in the news they decided to just pay the money & get the story to go away.

    Clearly this Rice deal was bad publicity for Cleveland and kept protesters in town so it was wise of them to get the family to just take the money & go away. Give another month or so down the road & protesters will all be gone & the story will be over & they can all move on. It won't be forgotten, just will be put to long term memory instead of in the news.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 26, 2016, at 8:27 AM
  • No, I believe in the Tamir Rice case it was a pretty clear admission of responsibility by the City of Cleveland.

    The reason the cop who killed him was not charged was that he was not given complete information from the 911 call.

    The caller told the 911 operator that the gun "was most likely a fake" and that the suspect "was a juvenile." This part of the call never got to the responding officers.

    The responding officers were only told that a black man was in the park waving a gun around and pointing it at people.

    And so they completely over-reacted.

    Just because the cop was not charged with a crime does not mean that the City of Cleveland, their 911 operators and dispatchers, and responding officers were not responsible for the death of Tamir Rice. City officials have stated as much.

    The willingness to settle means that the City of Clevelands' lawyer did not think they would prevail in a jury trial. It means they thought they would have to pay out even more following a trial.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Apr 26, 2016, at 3:14 PM
  • I just meant they weren't admitting to a crime. I didn't specify that so that's my bad. I agree they are admitting people made mistakes & they just want to get it done & save face, but they weren't admitting to guilt of any crimes cause no crime was committed by anyone.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Apr 26, 2016, at 3:58 PM
  • How about some names of those that were promoted for killing a black man. Hmmm! We know the names that the news media ruined their lives by lying and misreporting the facts.

    If this was really true it would be all over the media because that fits their agenda to make us believe that all cops are racist and the system promotes it. I think you all are lying because it fits your leftist agenda.

    Instead of blanket statements that may or may not be true lets back it up with names, badge numbers, etc. If you know it is happening then it should not be a problem to get the facts.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, Apr 26, 2016, at 10:37 PM
  • Did I say it's never been a crime when these incidents occurred?

    In this case the officers did not commit any crimes. In Ferguson, **** sure wasn't any crime by the officer. Now in South Carolina deal & Garner case, those I'd say were criminal.

    Like I keep saying everything is on a case by case basis. When you try to lump everything together your message & stance get lost & can thus be dismissed very easily.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 11:44 AM
  • The diversity story is about a man promoted over a decade after his incident. The death of the black man & his promotion had absolutely nothing to do with the other. It was over a decade difference!!!

    The 2nd one I agree doesn't deserve a promotion at least from that story. Now that's a very one sided story so I'd like to hear the other side as well. But promotion with an investigation still on going isn't something I'd be doing.

    But also no where does it say he was promoted "as a reward for his actions". To say that is just frankly way below your intelligence level CB. Especially in the 1st case where he wasn't promoted for over a decade, that's just a horrible article for you to site.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 11:51 AM
  • Yes, but to be fair to Oklahomaians, that's one of the steps for CPR in their state.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Apr 28, 2016, at 6:01 AM
  • This is why I always say we need all the facts before we can jump to conclusions. Especially on college campuses full of kids who don't think first very often.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Apr 28, 2016, at 9:18 AM
  • -- Posted by World Traveler on Fri, Apr 29, 2016, at 6:37 PM
  • Here is another one!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Apr 29, 2016, at 7:00 PM

    Yes,this video proves what your saying!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM
  • FBI's top 10 most wanted....

    -- Posted by DAgates on Mon, May 2, 2016, at 1:47 PM
  • I would think an audit from the state could do some good. It may also shed some light on why the county has so many vehicles for the sheriff's office "compared to other counties of this size". I'm sure it's fine nothing bad like that ever happens in Saline county.

    -- Posted by World Traveler on Mon, May 2, 2016, at 9:46 PM
  • I believe Wally has been tried and convicted. I reckon if there's any pardoning to be done, it will have to come from the governor.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, May 3, 2016, at 7:27 AM
  • He repaid most if not all the money did he not? I was thinking I read that but I could be mistaken. He's a lifetime officer with no priors & this is a blue colar crime in which he paid the money back. He was punished by being fired, forced to repay the money & I'm sure he'll get probation & community service.

    Now had he had priors, refused to pay or tried to flee the area to avoid capture than ok I can see an argument for jail. But for this case as it stands, I would perfectly understand if there was no jail time.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 3, 2016, at 3:15 PM
  • Former Sheriff George was not tried and convicted. He accepted a plea bargain and has yet to be sentenced. He did return the money in question.

    -- Posted by ahustead on Tue, May 3, 2016, at 3:35 PM
  • Seriously? Not a word about Trump being the presumptive Republican nominee?

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, May 4, 2016, at 7:19 PM
  • I figured you all would be frothing at the mouth in protest.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, May 4, 2016, at 7:19 PM
  • I'm disappointed in you guys.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, May 4, 2016, at 7:20 PM
  • Well I guess I won't be voting for president this time. Just don't feel comfortable with my normal vote for the lesser of two evils approach. Kinda like being given the choice of eating a cow pattie or brushing your teeth with a toothbrush someone wiped their *** with...the both leave a taste of s#*t in your mouth

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, May 5, 2016, at 6:39 AM
  • Yeah, I thought Ted said that God told him he was going to be President.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, May 5, 2016, at 7:35 AM
  • Everyone should just follow my lead and Vote Freeman! No one has better experience & no one has a better voice & no one could rally he country like Morgan Freeman!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, May 5, 2016, at 11:37 AM
  • The GOP's not scared of Trump! They hate all they're thugs ! But we do have Bernie Sanders to fight the B.S., Thugs in both Parties! Hillary won't do it ! So if you want this fight to continue without change, Vote Hillary 0r Trump? We could be close to a third Party as we'll get for a long time , do we want the same? Our School's will go to hell, as well as personal freedom !!!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, May 5, 2016, at 1:27 PM
  • Have you been inside the elementary schools in Marshall, they are already in hell.

    Bernie can't even win his nomination, he's got no shot at ever being President. He's even more extreme than Trump. Vote Freeman :)

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, May 5, 2016, at 2:59 PM
  • How do you know this whole plane of existence isn't hell?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, May 6, 2016, at 7:31 AM
  • Good question SD, it could also be the Matrix. Or could just be an alien video game. We may never know the truth!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 6, 2016, at 9:17 AM
  • You know it's a good thing the world isn't full of people that think not having a diploma means you are dumb and can't follow simple instructions. I guess if they can't be hired they can go on welfare and let the one that wouldn't hire them pay them to not work for them. Hmmmm!

    My father only had an 8th grade education and he was married to my mother for 40 years, fathered 2 children that did get a diploma and went to college. Could he have done that if nobody would hire him? He could do math in his head that 99% of the college graduates can't do without a calculator. Pretty amazing for someone that should have been too dumb to be hired or follow simple instructions. He worked hard and was able to retire but even then he worked because he had to have something to do. He was a man of his word, if he told you he would do something you could take it to the bank.

    He taught me to be a man and have integrity. Two things that are lacking in men today. He had brains, wasn't lazy and did not need for someone to slowly explain something to him.

    One very important thing that he taught me was not to look at where someone came from but look at what they can do. When we pre-judge someone we are usually wrong.

    News flash::he wasn't a cop.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Mon, May 9, 2016, at 10:57 PM
  • might as well be talking to a tree! Coldbeerbear otherwise formally known as bigfatguyreturns is an admitted felon who hates all law enforcement and apparently also hardworking folks like your dad and my grandpa who only had an 8th grade education. My grandpa worked hard his whole life and was never on welfare. He had something way more precious than any degree, he had a wealth of common sense. He also could to do math in his head quicker than I could do it on a calculator and could literally fix anything. He could work circles around todays generation of folks. Unfortunately coldbeerbear thinks people like his condescending hateful rhetoric but he doesn't have ANY common sense to realize that we don't.

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, May 10, 2016, at 6:14 AM
  • Our education system is geared to make our children good liberal card carrying Democrats. They need a permanent underclass that totally depends on the government so they can continually buy their votes by promising to help but yet nothing ever improves. So every election they promise the same things.

    You fill them with lies for years and years then you have good low information Democrat voters. If critical thinking was taught they would not vote Democrat.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 10, 2016, at 9:14 AM
  • Every kid gets what they want out of their education. The educations system is just fine, but here in America we have this little thing called freedom. We aren't chained to desk & threatened with jail or beatings because we get a few bad grades. If someone wants to be a brain surgeon they can very easily get that education if they so choose to work for it. If someone wants to be a mechanic, they can very easily get that education if they so choose to work for it. If they don't care about their future & want to slack off & be bums their whole lives, they (agree or not) are free to do that as well. Again, funny thing how people are responsible for their own lives & actions.

    Now I will agree with CB that 8th graders not getting diplomas 40 years ago is a lot different than now. I'd be willing to bet most of our grandparents don't have them. Has nothing to do with the education, it has to do with society at the time. Back then it meant more to get working to help pay bills for the family. That's not even legal now. But the diploma issue is a case by case basis. Some people are lazy bums who want to coast through life, those people I agree with CB I wouldn't hire. But if maybe you were young & dumb but since have been great citizen & are working hard at getting better, well that person deserves a chance if they are willing to work for it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 10, 2016, at 9:19 AM
  • Oldschool I can agree with your post except for the fact our education system is fine. The leftist propaganda needs to end and focus on learning things that are actually worth learning.

    -- Posted by rr3yv0 on Tue, May 10, 2016, at 1:56 PM
  • Why can't anyyone be a brain surgeon if they want too? What's holding them back?

    Sure you may not be as smart as someone else so you have to study harder, or maybe you have to work a couple jobs to pay for med school because you aren't as wealthy as someone whose parents can pay with cash. But no one is banned from being a brain surgeon if they choose to put in the work & effort needed for them.

    What kid can't get what they want out of their education? If you want to learn more, than study more & take more challenging classes. I mean you were a teacher CB, if a student came up to you and said challenge me more would you just send them away? I've talked to many teachers in Marshall who have drawn up special lessons for kids who have asked to be challenged more. Now if you'd rather just coast through school & believe C's get degrees than you can do that too.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, May 11, 2016, at 9:52 AM
  • If the education system is not fine than what needs to change CB? Remember this is America, you can't force kids to be smarter than they want to be.

    Personally the only change I'd like to see is getting rid of standardized testing. But then again if you get rid of that how do you know who gets the tax money & such? I don't know how all that works, but I always thought standardized testing was dumb personally.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, May 11, 2016, at 9:55 AM
  • 1) I agree ST are stupid.

    2) They can do paper work before/after class. Yes I know there is a lot, but it's part of the job.

    3) I agree NKLB is dumb. If you are decide to be dumb than so be it that's on you.

    4) I don't know what "de-facto segregation" is, 1st time I've ever heard that term.

    5) Most text books are fine. Are there bad ones snuck in there, yes. But most are just fine. Plus nobody ever said a teacher has to follow the textbook. I remember taking multiple courses were we never opened our books cause teacher didn't like it.

    6) Class size doesn't matter. Some kids do better with larger some do better with small. Can't please everyone. If a child wants more 1 on 1, they can talk to teacher & will get it.

    7) Teachers only work 8 months a year (3 months off for summer & month off during year for holidays & such). Take your salary & remove 4 months and see how it looks. Now I'm all for paying teachers more, but people forget they only work 8 months out of the year so their salary reflects that.

    8) I knew plenty when I was in school. I know my daughter has 3 in her class alone this year so yes kids do still get held back. At the same rate, I do not know but it does still happen.

    9) What school do you know that doesn't give those courses? My daughter has had all of 3 of those every year she's been in school.

    10) Home Ec is pointless. Cooking isn't that hard especially in the microwave & fast food world we live in. Voco classes are still there if you want to take them. I never wanted to be a mechanic so why take auto shop? Know plenty of guys who loved cars, they all took that class.

    11) So in the same sentence you blame kids not taking responsibility and acting up while then not blaming that smart kid for not taking responsibility to get extra help if they want it? Get what you get, you want more go get more. You want less, be less.

    12) I do agree parents are pathetic over the last 15 years. When we were kids if we got in trouble the first things our parents said was "what did you do"? The last 15 years or so it's been "what did you do to my baby"? Guess what kids, the real world is a cruel competitive place. Mommy can't come talk to your boss at work. You don't get "participation" ribbons in the real world. You want the awards, than you got to work hard to better than the other guys so you can win the game. Mommy won't be there to save you.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, May 12, 2016, at 11:12 AM
  • So I feel like a should remind people that being a student once our having a student doesn't make you an expert on education, any more than driving a car means you know how to be a mechanic or being a patient means youre qualified to to be a doctor. I also feel like I should say that I agree with a lot of what has been said. There are some important things being missed though.

    5) I agree that they are not a required part of good instruction, but if we set high expectations for students, we should set high expectations for our selves and the resources we provide them. 'Just fine' is not good enough.

    6) That is just incorrect. Some students excel one on one, others in small groups, but none benefit from a class of 25-30.

    7) also incorrect. Last year just June and July off. When comparing with my wife, with her whopping 5 years in a job, she gets two weeks less time off a year than I do. And she can choose when to take it. And she makes literally twice my income. She also doesn't grade, plan, look at data, or work on paper work nights and weekends. In addition, many teachers continue their own education, attend trainings, or work a second job during their summer 'off'.

    11) think about your point on this. The gifted kids are expected to seek additional challenges on their own? For the exact same credit as the D- students in the class? Would you do extra work for the same money in your job? If so, let me know, I'll hire you! The more able learners can take more challenging classes, but to expect them to seek more work for no increase in reward would be wrong. It would be a disservice to teach them to not expect any credit for routinely going above and beyond.

    12 is dead on on both people. With out parents creating a human capable of taking direction and responsibility, teachers are doomed

    -- Posted by thebirdman on Thu, May 12, 2016, at 4:02 PM
  • You do realize degrees in college doesn't mean you know absolutely everything about a subject right? My emphasis in college was in the Hellenistic Period. I actually did not take a single history class in college that involved anything after the year 1400. My high school history teacher was Mr. Nelson who I would dare you to find anyone who knows more about history than him. Just because he didn't emphasize every aspect of an issue you're obsessed with doesn't make him wrong.

    I did look up the definition of "de-facto segregation". I read multiple articles claiming de-facto segregation. Each article I read would throw out numbers and claim de-facto segregation, but then none had reasons for this segregation nor say how to fix it if there was. So is this actually real, or is it just something people say because they don't like the look of numbers so it must be racism? I know for sure it doesn't happen in Marshall, every kid goes to the same school & has the same teachers.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 8:49 AM
  • 7) School yr is Mid-August to Mid-May. They get rest of summer off, unless they teach summer school (which they get paid more for). They get two weeks in December, week in April. Nobody forces you to do anything extra like continue your own education or anything. Getting 2nd jobs during the summer is a good idea, that's a good way to supplement an 8 or 9 month paycheck with extra paychecks. Again I think teachers should be paid A LOT more. I'm just pointing out it's not as bad as assumed because of the time off factor.

    11) It's school man. Everyone gets the same "pay" no matter what. You get grades & at the end you get a degree. But if you go above & beyond you could get better scholarships or get into better schools. So does that person get anymore "pay" out of high school, no they get the same diploma as whether you have a 2.0 or 4.0. But that gifted person who does more could earn better scholarships & entry into better schools. Plus the debate was over whether they had the option or not. Whether they should choose the option or not is a different debate. The fact is they DO have the options if they choose to take them.

    Would I do more work for same pay for 30 years no I wouldn't. Would I do it for a few years knowing it highly increases my chance of a good promotion, yes I would.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 9:00 AM
  • Also let me point out I've said multiple times I could never be a teacher. I have multiple family members & friends who are teachers and I tell them all the time I could never do what they do. I don't have the patience to deal with kids that much, especially today's kids. I know they got lots of dumb paper work & grading they have to do on top of dealing with kids. It's not the funnest job in the world.

    But it's the job those people chose and they chose it knowing what the pay is. I hope one day we can pay them more (I'd pay more taxes to pay teachers more personally). But until then, everyone had all this information when they got into the profession and they still chose it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 9:07 AM
  • Let me rephrase CB, I CHOOSE not to be a teacher. I could be a teacher if I wanted to be. But I CHOOSE not to be a teacher because I don't handle kids disrespect that well. Especially when they are old enough to know better.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 1:11 PM
  • Well lucky for me I have a degree in history. So clearly I would qualify. However, even if I didn't have a degree that would not disqualify me from becoming a teacher because all I'd have to do is choose to go back to school to get a degree.

    I am sorry that I did not take black history in America as one of my elected courses in college. It was an offered class & I'm sure very worth while. I actually did not take any American history courses at my University (I took those 15 hours worth of early courses in high school which you could take for college credit). Once I got to my university it was all about which history you wanted to learn. I preferred to learn ancient history which is what fascinates me personally. I took most of my courses on Greece & Rome, however I did throw a few electives in there with China & Egypt. Recent history has just never fascinated me the way ancient history has.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 3:15 PM
  • You can point out when summer is if you want, that doesn't change the point. I get 10% more vacation at 50% the pay. You are mistaken to think that teachers have a ton of vacation compared to other professions.

    And I will say you are right to say that teachers aren't forced to occupy their summer time, but I'd also like to point out that in education, the only way to make meaningful advances in pay is to continue your education. There is experience pay, but it is limited in amount and duration. The only way to see significant increases in pay is through additional college or to abandon the classroom for administration.

    And again, I question the ability of those outside of education making broad statements or judgements about education our teaching. Knowing a teacher doesn't mean you have some sort of greater understanding of the profession. I know a lawyer, I'm related to an engineer. While I have an idea of what they do, by no means an I qualified to make statements about their compensation out how best to do their job.

    -- Posted by thebirdman on Fri, May 13, 2016, at 4:11 PM
  • Y'all quit pickin' on Oldschool.

    So, Oldschool, are you fascinated by gladiators and Spartans then?

    (I just couldn't help myself. This scene just popped into my head.)

    So did you study some Greek philosophy along with that Greek history? If you did, I am surprised at what a conservative defender of the status quo in all things you are.

    Things like: The fear that lies behind discrimination. The narcissistic nature of humans and why governance is the only solution to creating a successful society. The lack of empathy as a character flaw. The error in blind defense of the status quo.

    For example: "Status quo and conservatism are not the laws of nature that are incessantly sought by philosophers. Hence a philosopher, whose commitment is to truth, must be a seeker of change and progress, not of that which is called 'status quo'."

    I say this because I see all others who post here as modern philosophers. I mean we all share opinions and debate them in a public forum. Each typically states an opinion or idea, makes his case (some way better than others) and then gets to enjoy the dissection and feedback of his fellow posters.

    Not saying we are good philosophers, just that the blogging process fits the description.

    Oh, yeah, and how do you evaluate the effectiveness of your teachers, schools, or education system without some form of standardized testing or end of course exams?

    Just because some students don't do so well on them is not a reason to abandon the practice.

    In well run businesses we track metrics to see if our decisions and change of methods are making things better or worse.

    Don't we need similar metrics of some sort to see if our decisions and changes in methods are working in education?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, May 14, 2016, at 10:02 AM
  • You do need assessments, and standardized tests can be a useful measure of some aspects of education. The problem arises when they are used as the only measure of success on the part of the student or the teacher. they aren't the only measure of a teacher's success- rigor, engagement, and students' academic growth all come in to consideration. A student's success is way more than any test score as well. Not every gain in understanding a student may have will be assessed, so many won't show up in any report, and growth measures from where they started to what they ultimately end up achieving are much more significant to educators.

    Unfortunately, aggregated test scores and often arbitrary measures of those scores are what is publicised by the state, so that's often the only thing the voting public look at, when it is a very incomplete picture.

    -- Posted by thebirdman on Sat, May 14, 2016, at 10:26 PM
  • If imparting knowledge of various subjects into the mind of students is the goal of education, then isn't it logical to test the just how much knowledge was instilled?

    I do agree that all schools face differing challenges in getting that done, but I would much prefer an objective method, such as test results, to evaluate teacher effectiveness over the natural human favoritism and bias that enters in the process when objective measures are not employed.

    I do not agree on basing school funding on test results alone. Funding should be based on need. Many poorer school districts could use some help. Districts with big industrial or commercial tax bases, or lots of rich yuppie neighborhoods, have a big advantage over those without benefit of a big tax base.

    However, I do believe that standardized test results can be used as a metric for schools to measure their performance relative to other similar schools, or to identify schools that may have found more effective methods.

    Once again, you can only improve what you can measure. That's one of those trendy statements in business management that is accepted as fact. Not sure why it shouldn't apply to education equally as well.

    It's too easy to manipulate anecdotal evidence and allow human bias to influence decision making in the absence of data and metrics.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, May 15, 2016, at 9:44 AM
  • Honestly I don't have a good way to track progress like standardized test do. I guess to me I don't see why taxes & such are set to that. I would think taxes should be based off school size with every school getting the same amount based off their size. 1,000 students you get X amount, 5,000 students you get Y amount. Not sure why test are used to decide what schools get what. Personally I just like the fact that kids get grades. If you have more kids with good grades you're doing something right.

    If you have a job that gets just 10% less vacation than a teacher & yet get 50% more pay than we all wish we had your job! The fact you get a couple months worth of vacation is fantastic :)! And yes by vacation I mean you do not have to go to your job. Volunteer training or 2nd job does not take away from the fact that you aren't at your job that day. What you do with that time off is your own choice. If I was a teacher I'd have a summer job for sure to supplement my income.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, May 16, 2016, at 8:32 AM
  • I think the aim of No Child Left Behind was to cut funding to low performing schools. The conservative thought was that if you cut funding to schools with low test scores, which unfortunately are mostly in poor communities and remote rural areas, then you would force non-performing public schools to close.

    That would then open the door for school vouchers, a program that conservatives have wanted to implement for a couple of decades now, so they could fund Private Christian schools with public tax money.

    It made a lot of sense, right? To cut funding to struggling schools so they would struggle more. Yeah, that's it. "Improve or die!"

    I think test scores should be used to indicate effectiveness, but if anything, low results would indicate that we might need to throw more money at struggling schools, not less.

    I also firmly believe that dysfunctional management of a school district helps lead to poor school performance. I say this because it certainly holds true in other organizations, like factories or businesses, that require leadership that is good at organization, motivation, fiscal planning, and defining an appropriate common vision that all can understand and implement.

    And BTW, tax rates are not set by test scores.

    Your local property tax levy is set by your local school board. There are legally defined limits they must operate within in doing so that require voter approval of amounts above a certain level. None of that has anything to do with standardized test results.

    State funding comes from a formula that it appears no one understands. All I can say is that it appears that the state level politicians can monkey around with that all they want. This apparently leads to some amount of mystery for school administrators when trying to produce budgets. Thanks, politicians, for that.

    Then there is federal funding. Mostly from grants, etc, I believe. This money can be withheld by the feds if your school discriminates, or doesn't follow Title IX, or No Child Left Behind, or whatever dopey thing federal politicians come up with during campaign season to pander to their party base.

    As a general comment on all this, during my lifetime I have observed a gradual shifting of the majority of the burden of paying for schools onto the local folks through property taxes.

    Federal funding for education has been cut on a regular basis over the last 30 years or so in the name of fiscal conservatism and to punish those dang "liberals who are in charge of education in America." ( A conservative politician's quote, not mine.) Kind of like the Missouri Legislature is doing now to MU.

    Here's a fine example of what Missouri politicians have done for school funding.

    Remember when we all voted to legalize gambling in order to decrease property taxes and increase education funding back in the early 90's? Well, maybe not you Gen X'ers.

    Guess what? State legislatures took the income tax and sales tax money out of education and spent it on something else, then replaced it with lottery money.

    States increased their income through lotteries but then did not add this money to education, they just put it in to replace money they took away from education.

    So, we voted for lotteries and gambling (which, if a private individual opens a gambling parlor, it's immoral and therefore illegal, but if the state does it, well.....) in order to lower our property taxes, but, funny thing, our property taxes just about everywhere are at record highs. How'd that work out for us, the taxpayers?

    Oh, yeah, then some ill informed politicians start doling out property tax breaks to corporations, removing more money from the budgets of our schools, which then must be made up with property tax levy increases on individuals. Once again, who pays more? Let's see, didn't we voters just have to increase taxes on ourselves so the City of Marshall and Marshall Public Schools could continue to function?

    I especially like the City part. The very entity that gave out a big old tax cut and then worked its self into the red, required us, the citizens the city government is supposed to serve, to make up the difference.

    And, some more fun facts. An increase in sales taxes is considered regressive by economists. That means that the burden of paying falls heavier on lower income individuals and less on higher income individuals.

    To make it simple, a person making $15,000 per year pays a much, much higher percentage of their annual income in sales taxes than a person making $150,000. On a macro economic scale, increased sales taxes take money out of the pockets of those that can least afford it and has a much lower impact on those at the top of the fiscal pyramid.

    It's why conservatives prefer sales taxes over income taxes, or capital gains taxes. Capital Gains, being the Holy Grail of Conservative Donors, are why Mitt Romney or Donald Trump pay a lower percentage of their income in income taxes that you or me.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, May 17, 2016, at 8:46 AM
  • Where did all the gambling money go? I know Boonville has some very nice schools since the casino came there.

    I was in high school so all I heard was "yes I get to gamble". I hit them up pretty hard in college but since I settled down I don't make it to the casinos more than once or twice a year.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 17, 2016, at 1:58 PM
  • "Spent it on something else". What was the "else" that it was spent on. You are getting slow in your old age there CB to not catch that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, May 18, 2016, at 8:04 AM
  • Got ya, ok yep that was my bad now I get it. Thank you CB, I can admit when I mis-read and I did that there.

    I see where the anger comes from. I guess I would need to go back & see what was told at the time. Did they just say it would add more money to education? Well that's not a lie, it did add more money to education. Or did they say it would multiply the education funding by X because of being added on top of the current budget? That would clearly be a lie & should be hammered.

    That's the thing with politicians (yes from both sides) it's all about the wording. They are the masters of wording bills & speeches just right so that everyone hears what they want them too hear.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, May 19, 2016, at 2:57 PM
  • Saw Zimmerman gun sold for almost $140,000. Must be nice to have that much money to spend on a collection item. Royals had a great auction of stuff just couple nights ago I could have bought it all for that price!

    Now if the world is smart, they let the story die & go away. That way in 30 years that gun is worthless & when you say Zimmerman nobody remembers his name & he doesn't get to be infamous forever (which is probably what he wants).

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, May 19, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • Well, Oldschool, since I told you what the campaign to pass gambling said, and I was actually an adult voter at the time, I find it odd that you still don't know what was said back then.

    Do you think I just make this stuff up? Have you been able to discredit my rehash of historical events at all?

    Sheesh, there are none so blind.....

    It was pushed as something that would lower property taxes. More funding from education was to come from the gambling income to the state which was to allow local communities to lower property taxes.

    As soon as the windfall of revenue reached the state coffers, however, the "drunken-sailor-on-shore-leave" mentality set in and all manner of pet projects for politicians and their lobbyists were funded. Property tax relief never materialized, and more recently the tea-party take over of the legislature has brought us cuts to state funding for education instead of increases, especially higher education.

    Here is a link to a 1998 article that has the following quote; "They argue all the gaming revenue should go to education programs as promised when riverboat casinos were established in 1994 by a state constitutional amendment."

    So, if you read the article, what is revealed is that other groups, such as the Liberty Memorial Fund and the National Guard, were clamoring for the gambling money, and already were promised a share. Again, money 100% of which was to go to education.

    And this is but one example of dozens that really are not that hard to find in the age of Google.

    If you don't want to believe me, I recommend that folks at least educate themselves on a topic before revealing their clueless-ness. This topic is really not up for debate, as it is historical fact.

    Anyone who was paying attention and voted back in the mid-90's knows that the campaign to get that amendment passed leaned heavily on the concept of property tax relief and increased funding for education.

    Neither happened. And now we have television ads that attempt to make folks feel guilty for not gambling because our kids education depends on the public's vices.

    Then, of course, there is no shortage of information on our argument about whether a building built on a pond next to the river was a riverboat and therefore a legal gambling establishment.

    Where's those Outraged Moral Crusading Christians? I guess they are too busy attending NRA events and Trump rallies to care about the legalization of something condemned in the bible that is now sponsored by the state.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, May 20, 2016, at 8:25 AM
  • I'll do my research & get back to you. But I can't believe you would be lied to by politicians, that is so out of character for them! Every dime didn't go exactly where they said, I would be flabbergasted to know that a politician would do such a thing.

    Christians pick & choose what moral parts of the bible they go for. Clearly gambling is up there with stoning kids.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, May 20, 2016, at 11:34 AM
  • I'm good with that CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, May 23, 2016, at 8:53 AM

    Now if we had a plan for eliminating all the other murdering bastards that aren't law enforcement! Wow just checking Chicago murder stats by non-law enforcement is crazy high!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Tue, May 24, 2016, at 12:40 PM
  • I noticed in a headline that the Marshall VFW and the American Legion are decorating the graves of deceased vets. Highly commendable and I thank them for this service. I need to ask, however, given that headline; who is decorating the graves of living vets?

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, May 27, 2016, at 12:21 PM
  • Again on what basis would someone with Wally's history be in jail? 1) he paid back every dime. 2) besides this he has a spotless record. 3) been law enforcement before some of us were born. 4) highly respected in the community. 5) circumstances weren't sinister.

    He's been fired & humiliated. Anyone with his record, who again paid every dime back, should not be jail.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 31, 2016, at 8:16 AM
  • Actually it matters a lot who you are when you commit a crime. First time offenders get shown more mercy than multiple time offenders. White collar crimes get shown more mercy than violent crimes. Pillar of a community with spotless reputation gets more mercy than the town drunk. Sorry if that's not a perfect system for you, the system is run by humans who are of course not perfect. Sorry if that's not fair to you, the world isn't a fair place.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, May 31, 2016, at 3:43 PM
  • So you ignored the difference between white collar and violent crime & went straight from stealing to murder huh? And you bug me about reading comprehension.

    There is always a sliding scale CB, very few crimes have mandatory sentences. Discretion has always been apart of the judicial system.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 1, 2016, at 10:04 AM
  • Yeah we had a white people's meeting a couple years back. Funny you said that, we specifically put down in the minutes that all poor black people should be immediately shot for J-walking. So yeah that should be in the minutes somewhere. I'm not sure about the rest, we had a doctor take down the minutes and you know how horrible their hand writing is.

    Um yes embezzling money is white collar crime. Killing people as you said the governor could then do would be considered violent crime. And yes those are two different things.

    I was going to ask you where the list of things black & poor people can be offended at just because someone else life is better than theirs. I mean black lives matter, but only in certain situations that white people are involved. Poor people complain about not having any money, but don't dare bring up ways they could save money because they will live how they want. We want equality, but don't you dare take away the free stuff I get because I'm different. Maybe we should get our books together and compare notes.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 1, 2016, at 1:19 PM
  • Ask Lyndale Henderson how tough the legal system is. He got away with (literal) murder in our town and he is about as poor and black as a person can get. Your tax dollars at work right there, got a free legal defense and an acquittal all without spending a dime of his own. Last I checked his victims are still dead though so tell me again what rich white privilege are we talking about here? I suppose his victims were white, they were privileged enough to be murdered by a thug in their own home and have one of their killers get off Scott free on tax dollars they paid themselves. Then that sweet kid turned around and committed an assault so serious I heard the victim was a vegetable. He did finally go to prison for a few MONTHS for that. His victim is still a vegetable, but at least that poor black guy isn't being punished too harshly. Maybe you've killed a few too many brain cells with your coldbeer.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Wed, Jun 1, 2016, at 4:15 PM
  • That can't be true OMG, CB said black people & poor people get harsher penalties and are at such a huge disadvantage when it comes to criminal cases. So surely there is no way a poor black man could get a light sentence or even get away with a crime right? Only rich white people are supposed to have that privilege right CB?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 8:28 AM
  • Anybody can pick and choose 1 or 2 cases to make a situation look different than it is,

    Thank you for making my point. That is EXACTLY what YOU have been doing this entire time. Hence, my beef. I'll have it on a bun with cheese please.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 12:23 PM
  • First off the ACLU is as biased as they come because if they say things are fine or as good as they can get than they are no longer needed & they are out of jobs. So it's smart business to find racial inequality under every rock they turn over.

    Now they pointed out some specific cases to prove their point, some were good some were stupid. Case where homeless black guy was paid to buy drugs & the white dealer got nothing was bad. Now the black guy deserved what he got (lets not forget he was punished correctly), but the white dealer for sure should have gone down too!

    The one with the jury who said he convicted cause of prejudice, well how in the world can you stop that? Now the juror should have been charged with something & the man gotten a re-trial, but that's not a system problem that's just an individual problem.

    One they used was like a 40 year old case, that doesn't even register in life today so horrible example.

    Again you can throw statistics and numbers around all you want to prove anything you want. Saying "similar crimes" and "comparable criminal histories" are very vague statements that sound fancy but don't hold water. What do they consider "similar" and "comparable"? For me to take your numbers seriously I need to see words like "exactly" and "identical". Then you can compare apples to apples & say yes or no.

    I have no problem saying that someone got thrown in jail this week solely because of their race. What I won't say (because I can't know) is how many of those cases are there each week? Are there 10? 100? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? If it's a low number, than well that's just what happens when imperfect human species is in charge. Nothing will ever be perfect. If it's a huge number, than ok that takes fixing. But I have to see the breakdowns better than just "well it's 13% of the population but 38% of the prison because I just looked at census data". Give me apples to apples.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 8:47 PM
  • -- Posted by OMG! on Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 8:50 PM

    Seems as if the "Independent Journal Review" isn't so independent, eh?

    I especially like the opening sentence.

    "The Independent Journal Review is an American viral news website."

    Yep, that's what we need, more "viral news." Especially a "viral news" database compiled by former Republican Party staffers with the name "Independent Journal Review."

    Kinda like that "fair and balanced" thing Fox News advertises.

    And as The Donald is the king of generating "viral news" I am now beginning to understand the new Republican Party as it has become the party of political incorrectness as if being totally racist, unkind, and undignified was something to be proud of.


    For a fine example of what society has devolved into in modern America, all one needs to do is read the comments section of any article that even mentions Obama.

    Isn't it wonderful to live in a society where many folks seem to think racism and discrimination are no big deal and electing a half-black president has exposed the white-supremacist tendencies of a fair portion of right wing voters?

    So now the mantra is "so what's wrong with racism? It's just the way things are."

    I marvel at the things coming out of my hard-core right-wing nut-job friends and acquaintances these days. Record setting ignorance and revisionist history abound as they rally around The Donald now that their leaders at Fox News and in congress have told them it's ok.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jun 3, 2016, at 7:50 AM
  • Just like all political papers & websites, they have their own agendas. That's why I take any information from any of them with a grain of salt.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jun 3, 2016, at 2:09 PM
  • OS,

    That is the way I take most of your political comments; with a grain of salt. lol

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Fri, Jun 3, 2016, at 4:08 PM
  • As I take your completely one sided comments DR :)!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jun 3, 2016, at 10:47 PM
  • Seriously CB? You really need to read something besides the Huffington Post junk. That article was about one man, who dropped out of school in 9th grade.

    There are people in this world who believe in all kinds of crazy stuff and are still plenty smart enough to graduate from any school in the world. Just look at religious nuts who believe the world is only 5,000 yrs old! Or the people who think planes didn't crash into the twin towers, or that believe there is an actual physical revolution happening in the US in our lifetime. People believe the entire world was flooded & that the moon landing was faked.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jun 6, 2016, at 9:55 AM
  • Still not sure where you hatred of the school system comes from, but it's unfounded. Is everyone perfect, nope they are not. Do people slide through who can't read because they are great at BS, sure there are. Plenty of kids already think they have their life planned & do the bare minimum to get to it. Not everyone is as dedicated to education as your children are. Lord knows I didn't want to mess with school long enough to get masters & PHD stuff.

    How exactly would you force students who don't care and don't want to learn to learn? I mean we force them to go to school, but once they are there how do force stupide people to be smart or force smart enough kids who can fake it actually learn it?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jun 6, 2016, at 4:07 PM
  • So like I said CB, u would need to increase teacher salary by a lot to employ that system. Plus still need kids to care to put in the work. Also, how long will u hold kids back? Still have 17 yr old in 8th grade if they can't master algebra?

    It sounds good, but even after 50 yrs it's not used much & critized more than approved. Seems like to many questions to me to be as simple of a solution as u make it sound.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jun 6, 2016, at 10:41 PM
  • You'd need to increase their salary (should anyway I agree) because you'd be asking them to do even more work & be putting more emphasis on their jobs. Those bring with it demands for more money or you'd go somewhere else.

    Again with this wide ranging numbers that don't take any individual factors into consideration. Does the Huffington Post actually do any investigating or do they just spit out numbers they like? How many of those kids suspended longer DESERVED the suspension? How many of the white kids who didn't get suspended DESERVED to be suspended longer? Not saying it doesn't happen, because like all parts of society there will be bad eggs mixed in that hurt people. But those numbers look a lot different if say out of the 48% more likely to get suspended 40% deserved it. But they don't go into that much detail because it wouldn't make their story sound as good.

    Well no duh that kids who can't speak English & kids who are disabled wouldn't get as good a learning experience. It's hard to learn when you can't understand what the teacher says or when you can't comprehend at the same level. Of course students who understand every word the teacher says & can clearly understand what the teacher is saying would get better value for their education. That's like saying it's unfair that tall people are better at basketball than short people.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jun 7, 2016, at 8:54 AM
  • Ok that's one. I would say the white guy didn't get nearly harsh enough penalty, should have gotten at least 5 years minimum, probably more.

    For being found guilty I'd say Banks got what he should have gotten. Now the court was wrong so it's bad and he should sue her & the courts for damages and the woman should be charged with crimes herself for filing false police report & perjury.

    Now it's still two completely different courts. Would Bank judge have done the same thing for Turner that his judge did? Would Turner's judge have done the same thing for Banks? Maybe one judge is harsh to rapist period while the other is lenient against everyone with first time offenses that are wasted? So it's not a pure apples to apples, but it's at least close enough that I'd say both judges should have their verdicts looked into further.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jun 7, 2016, at 2:01 PM
  • I never cease to be amazed at the depth of Oldschool's ability to rationalize racism, especially systemic racism.

    Of course there's no racial bias in the legal system. It's just that the poor black kid got the hanging judge and the rich white kid got the molly-coddling judge.

    Yeah, that's it. And amazingly again, it seems that those poor blacks just keep getting unlucky in judge selection over and over and over and over....

    See, it's not systemic bias.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 7:41 AM
  • So are you used to comparing apples to oranges to decide what happened on things SmartDog? How can you say those two cases are apples to apples when they were performed on opposite sides of the country by two different courts?

    I did happily admit it is red flags for both courts & deserves to have those courts decisions looked into. But I'm sorry if I don't just assume everyone in the world is racist before I do any investigation. Look into those judges, if they consistently let white guys off under the same cases circumstances than I'll gladly agree with you that those courts have a big problem. But I'm not jumping the gun before I know the facts to more than just one case.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 8:19 AM
  • And that cop is going to jail. Tried & convicted, so the system worked correct? Cop deserved what he got for what he did.

    Again like to point out if the kid had gotten out of the car on his own none of this happens. Not the kids fault, but he could have helped himself. Just add to the lesson of how to protect yourself.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 10:35 AM
  • Hey OldSchool,

    A lot of investigation has already been done, and there are a lot of us convinced not only that racism exists, but that it's pretty prevalent. I actually am convinced that pretty much everyone in the world IS racist - and we all have to stay awake to catch our bias before it makes us say & do stupid things. It's the result of growing up in a racist world.

    I'm assuming you're white, since I'm doubting that non-white people need to be convinced that racism exists and I think we white people tend to take our advantages for granted, and not see them as unfair white privilege. This goes so far that a lot of white people now seem to think that there is more racism directed at them (through affirmative action, etc.) than at black people in our "post-racial" world. This is a massive inability to see things from anybody else's point of view - as well as a massive cause of continuing injustice. C'mon, look around - do you really think whites don't have advantage because they're white?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 11:31 AM
  • Explain to me how your life has been specifically privileged solely because you are white Have.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 1:32 PM
  • Also I never said racism doesn't exist. I simply state that I don't believe it is as bad as everyone here seems to think it is. I actually believe it's the best today than it has ever been in American history.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 1:36 PM
  • How bad racism is depends a lot on how much it impacts you, which isn't much if you're white.

    Regarding my privilege, as a white person, I pretty much get the benefit of the doubt, as opposed to non-white people. Taxis stop for me, apartments don't become already rented when I show up, when I was a theater student parts were open to me (as opposed to the Hawaiian girl down the hall, who was usually the non-speaking dance alter-ego of some European character at best). Teachers called on me and assumed I was at least passably smart. And on a more practical note, I've never been stopped and frisked, I've never been pulled over for changing lanes without a signal, people don't cross the street when I'm walking because I might be dangerous. I can look at a toy gun in a store and nobody much thinks it's real and I'm out to shoot people - and those things will probably never happen to me, mostly because I'm white. Personnel Directors will statistically give my job application a better chance because my name isn't Lakeesha or Muhammad. I'm sure there are a lot of other things, but we can start there.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 2:19 PM
  • Ok, you do realize all those things you just listed are "perceived" and have no factual base. You don't know if that apartment complex would have done that. You don't know why a teacher called on you. You don't know if that taxi driver wouldn't have stopped for a black man. Have you pointed a toy gun at a cop before? Could it be you haven't been stopped or frisked because you have broken a law to warrant it?

    See that's my point. All of those things you just listed are perceived with no factual basis to back them up. That is like a religious person saying God exist because you have perfect working eyes & just look at nature.

    Now if you were standing at an apartment complex & the guy said "yes sir we have plenty of rooms" and then a black man walked up next to you and same person said "sorry sir he just got the last one". Ok that is factual that you can point too.

    And don't give me looks & reactions by people. You have no clue why someone looks or reacts the way they do. People look & react to someone for a million reasons, you have no clue what reason that person has.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 2:27 PM
  • Oh, there's a huge one I didn't mention. As a parent, I never had to talk with my kids about the fact that they could put their lives in danger by doing anything that might be interpreted as disrespectful by a cop. I mean, I of course let them know that they shouldn't be disrespectful, but our assumption was that if they got in trouble for their attitude, it wouldn't be serious trouble - or include actual physical risk.

    On the other hand, I did tell my son that if he didn't show extreme respect for any police officer while hanging out with any friends who weren't white, it could put them all in real danger - especially his non-white friends. That's a horrible conversation - and it wasn't anything near as bad as the conversation other parents have to have with their kids.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 2:38 PM
  • A friend of mine in Des Moines IA was an extremely dark black guy from NY. He didn't sound black when he talked, at least not by Iowa standards. When he was looking for an apartment, he made appointments on the phone to see a number of available apartments, which became unfortunately just taken as soon as he showed up. Did he have the evidence to sue - and did he? Maybe he could have, but no he didn't. It did happen pretty frequently, though. I think assuming "no racism there" would just be stupid. And it didn't kill him, or ruin his life - but it certainly wasted his time and made it a lot harder for him to find a place he could call home.

    Most of the rest of my "perceived" instances are things that have been shown statistically to happen more frequently to non-whites. And the toy gun I mentioned was a reference to the 22-year-old who was shot in a Walmart in Ohio while carrying a pellet gun that was Walmart merchandise. I was wrong, it wasn't a toy, it was a real air rifle - but he didn't point it at anybody (much less a cop) & he was shot dead. I think the possibility of that happening to me is nonexistent - mostly because I'm white. I would call that privilege.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 2:57 PM
  • I lived in an apartment complex in college and my building alone (12 units) was half black. Now what happened to your friend sucked, but just because it happened to him doesn't make it a nation wide fact anymore than seeing a black man at KFC yesterday means all black people love fried chicken.

    Again you aren't using facts with you're gun reference. You "think" that wouldn't happen to you, but you don't know. Maybe whoever shot that kid was some trigger happy idiot looking for any excuse to shoot anyone. Or maybe you are 100% right & it was a racist idiot who wanted to kill a black guy. Or maybe that guy just had someone close to him killed by a black man the day before so he sees another black man with a gun and panics. There are a ton of reasons for everything someone does & it's lazy to just jump to the race card.

    That's still an individual act as well. Doesn't mean if a black guy is scene with the exact same gun walking around Marshall Wal-Mart that he's going to get gunned down because everyone is that racist.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 3:30 PM
  • By the way Have, I'm going to love to see CB's response to you saying "sounds black" haha. If I wrote that sentence he'd be slamming me asking me what does black sound like and calling me racist lol. But since you agree with him, I'm sure he'll let it slide.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 3:32 PM
  • LMAO, called it!!!!! Man I love predictability.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • Well, I was pretty surprised in Star Wars (I don't remember which one) when Darth Vader's helmet came off & he was a white guy I'd never seen before. He had sounded a lot like James Earl Jones the whole time. Is it racist to say that you can sometimes tell somebody's race by the sound of their voice? I don't think so - I mean isn't it sort of like saying you can distinguish someone's race by looking at them? I mean you can't always tell by either, but sometimes you can. I don't think it's that kind of perception that's the problem - it's the assumptions people make based on the identification.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 4:23 PM
  • Thanks CBB, I was lost (not helped by the fact that clicking "Post a Comment" keeps popping me into the Political Speak Out.)

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 6:03 PM
  • OK, I gotta ask, CBB - I wasn't trying to be racist by saying "sounding black"(although it obviously came out that way, both to Oldschool and to you), I was trying to talk about the fact that my friend spoke to white Des Moines landlords and from those conversations they thought he was white and were surprised when he showed up to find he was black. Their surprise, and their reactions, had to do with expectations and I think they were racist in refusing to rent to him as a black man, but how do you talk about his experience in a non-racist way? I'm asking sincerely, here.

    And on another note - Aretha Franklin sounds really different than John Denver, and not only because she's a woman and he's a man. She also sounds different than Bonnie Raitt, a white woman. Some of that has to do with influences and community, which could be called "white" or "black", some of it is because they're just different people, and some of it has to do with something in the vocal quality - the sound of the voice - which can also be called "white" or "black". Billie Holiday sounds pretty different than Ella Fitzgerald (both of whom are black, as I'm sure you know) in this way. Is there a way to talk about that that isn't racist? I'm not trying to argue, I really want to know.

    Also - I tried your links, but the last 3 were dead. The first one went to the front page of the Washington Post blog, but didn't direct to a particular article. Were you pointing to the one about disparities in Dr.'s salaries? That's the only one I saw that seemed to apply. I'm convinced of your point, but the links aren't showing the proof.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 9:02 PM
  • Old School, all of those things you said could be very true,"You don't know if that apartment complex would have done that. You don't know why a teacher called on you. You don't know if that taxi driver wouldn't have stopped for a black man. Have you pointed a toy gun at a cop before? Could it be you haven't been stopped or frisked because you have broken a law to warrant it?" On the other hand this way of thinking can also be used by racists who actually try to cover up the fact that they think racist thoughts, have racist ideologies,and are infact racist. They get away with discrimination all the time by saying "the apt is already rented, the position is filled, etc. Knowing there is no way of proving otherwise. Happens to blacks in our community every day. Sad but true

    -- Posted by dovie40 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 11:33 PM
  • Old School, all of those things you said could be very true,"You don't know if that apartment complex would have done that. You don't know why a teacher called on you. You don't know if that taxi driver wouldn't have stopped for a black man. Have you pointed a toy gun at a cop before? Could it be you haven't been stopped or frisked because you have broken a law to warrant it?" On the other hand this way of thinking can also be used by racists who actually try to cover up the fact that they think racist thoughts, have racist ideologies,and are infact racist. They get away with discrimination all the time by saying "the apt is already rented, the position is filled, etc. Knowing there is no way of proving otherwise. Happens to blacks in our community every day. Sad but true. As far as sounding "black", it is true that many times you can tell if a person is black or white by their voice. But let's not take that to mean that " sounding black" means using incorrect English or slang or "ebonics" which are used by uneducated whites as well.Years ago when blacks began to be educated and use correct English we were called "uppity". Now we hear the term "well spoken". I can't say I really hear whites referring to other whites as being "well spoken". Is it because it is assumed that whites are educated and so unusual for a black to be that it has to be pointed out and noted? Just my opinion and perception.

    -- Posted by dovie40 on Wed, Jun 8, 2016, at 11:58 PM
  • There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    So just because folks of African decent in America are frankly stating that they have, in the past, and are now experiencing racism and discrimination regularly in America today, that doesn't mean it is happening?

    Is that really your supporting argument here, Oldschool?

    And just because some white folks actually have thought about it and come to the same conclusion through observation, reading, and seeking understanding, that doesn't mean it's happening either?

    So if I tell you that I know people who use the N word regularly and will freely state that they think Hispanics and Blacks are inferior, and that they love Donald Trump because they think he thinks like they do, that doesn't mean there is a racism problem in America?

    And then there's those pesky studies that reveal systemic discrimination and bias in arrests, conviction rates, and sentencing but when you point out that difference with two court cases that did not have the same judge, it's comparing apples and oranges.

    Let's see, apples and oranges are both edible, both are fruits, both grow on trees, but they are different colors.

    Ahhhhh, now I see, things of different color should be treated differently and kept apart in the Oldschool world. Was that your point?

    I'm having trouble understanding how you don't get that referencing a case where white athletic kid privilege got one kid a light sentence after being caught red handed, while a black kid got the book thrown at him for the same crime, is a fine example of what people are talking about when discussing racial bias in the criminal justice system.

    Yep, two different judges and two different crimes, and that's the point. Many judges in America are biased. These cases were a recent example of two of them.


    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 8:31 AM
  • Hey Dovie, welcome to the conversation, always like new voices.

    I have no problem agreeing with the fact that racist will use any excuse to believe their racist thoughts. But that goes for black people racist against white people who will automatically play the race card in those cases without knowing any other facts. "That person looked at me odd because I'm black". That black person has absolutely no clue why that person looked at them odd. Just like a white person saying "Ah that guy just had all his apts rented, has nothing to do with your race". Well unless you've seen their books you have no clue if they were rented or not.

    Which is why I have always said I prefer to know all the facts before I say something is or isn't racist. I have no problem playing the race card if it fits the facts because we all know there are racist. But I do not like throwing the race card just because someone perceives something as racist because that's what they want to see.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 8:41 AM
  • Come on SD don't reach please. You know very well that apples to oranges is an extremely common term to describe things that aren't the same. However if it makes you feel better I will change the metaphor to apples to a football.

    I like how you guys continue to turn my words from when I say "racism happens, just not at the extreme level you guys are saying it does" into "racism doesn't happen period". I have said over and over that there are racist in the world & they do racist things. In fact I'm the one who says there has been racist since the dawn of humans and there will be racist until the end of humans. So not sure how I've been stuck with the idea that there is no racism.

    Also please read my statements on those two cases, I had no problem saying it draws red flags and those judges should be reviewed. But I will not go as far to say that both judges are automatically racist & the courts are racist simply based on the results of two individual cases that have literally nothing to do with each other. Now if you review those two courts individually and see a racist pattern appear than ok I have no problem saying these individual courts/judges have a problem that needs immediate attention. But if you go through & there aren't those patterns, than there is nothing wrong.

    I don't see why it is such a harsh view to simply ask for more information before I jump to a conclusion?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 8:55 AM
  • I also agree that sometimes I have heard blacks use the race card when it does not apply. About the N word, I have been around whites who say it freely and then say "no offense" Total ignorance.The word IS offensive and the fact that they tell me" no offense" is just as is like they are saying " I said the N word but don't be offended N.

    -- Posted by dovie40 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 9:59 AM
  • So you agree, then, Oldschool, that we have a problem with racial bias in our legal system in America?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 1:15 PM
  • ...and you agree that it is a problem of enough severity that it should be addressed?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 1:16 PM
  • No SD I do not agree with either of those statements.

    I said in my post "IF" after review there is shown racial bias w/these specific judges than that is a problem with these specific judges that needs to be fixed.

    No where in my statement did I say that there was a racial bias in the judicial system let alone to the severity that needs addressing.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 3:51 PM
  • Apparently the N word is freely fine & able to be used amongst black people at will. Not sure why if it's so offensive but that's besides the point, it has been deemed by the majority of the black community to be acceptable by them.

    What is everyone's opinion on singing a song with the N word in it? I've really enjoyed some rap songs from my childhood and know all the words and yes I'm a big singer when I hear a song I know. So, as a white person am I to sing the song or do I need to censor myself from the lyric? Even though I'm not directing toward anyone or throwing it around as a joke or for no reason. I'm singing a song from a black person & it just happens to be a lyric?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 4:20 PM
  • I'd have to look at the cases to see why those people went to jail & why the other people did not go to jail CB. Unless you'd like me to stereotype groups of people (white & black) to make up a reason that I don't have proof of than I'd need to know specifics of cases.

    Now if you'd like you can stereotype that white people are racist, or stereotype that black people are thugs or something like that than that is your prerogative. But rather than just find everyone in the world guilty of something automatically, I'd rather know the truth behind the numbers.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 4:24 PM
  • Didn't mean to say you did think that, was just an example. But I like how u proved my point of jumping to race card with zero evidence other than your own personal assumption.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jun 9, 2016, at 8:04 PM
  • If you want the results of a lot of investigation on the subject, I highly recommend "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander. Well-written, comprehensive, horrifying.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 7:00 AM
  • In my opinion it takes willful ignorance to not believe racial bias exists in rates of arrest, conviction, and sentencing in light of the many peer reviewed studies of the subject that have all virtually come to the same conclusion.

    For Christ's sake, please don't tell me you believe these higher incarceration rates are because the African and Hispanic races are inferior, and therefore more likely to commit crimes, as that racist trash has been debunked as well.

    So how do you explain the statistics that show we arrest, convict, and sentence people of color at significantly higher rates than white folks, Oldschool?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 7:28 AM
  • There is nothing to explain SD. They are vague statistics that don't factor anything in other than race & crime. It leaves out details in case that decide if those cases are racially motivated or a multitude of other factors. Is there SOME racial bias, for the millionth time yes there is, is it in every single one of those cases that go towards that statistic, OF COURSE NOT! The key is how many? You don't know until you dig into case specifics.

    SO the statistic says more black people are arrested & convicted for longer than whites? Without looking at case specifics & any other evidence it's just as nieve & short sited to say it's 100% about race as it is the idiots who would say it means black people just commit more crimes. Knowing details & break downs of cases to get a precise number is the more accurate & intelligent way to handle something.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 1:00 PM
  • OS,

    You are outnumbered and outright wrong.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 1:59 PM

    I mean, just because multiple peer reviewed studies conducted by psychologists and sociologists have proven that bias exists in conviction and sentencing in the American Judicial System, that's no reason to believe it's happening, or that it's a problem.


    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 3:11 PM
  • Keep throwing out big stats without detail statistics. That's ok, apparently I'm the only one in the group who wants more than Circumstantial evidence to prove a fact.

    Heaven forbid I want evidence to prove guilt or innocence.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jun 10, 2016, at 10:33 PM
  • Dice is a random game that has nothing to do with nothing. Show me specifics and I have no problem agreeing with you. I just don't trust large vague numbers about anything because they don't use evuxence. They simply use vague data.

    I don't see why asking for more specific evidence is so bad unless u can't provide it. Then it makes sense why u like them because specifics don't back it up.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sat, Jun 11, 2016, at 12:13 AM
  • I reckon all those pesky statistics used in the pharmaceutical industry for effectiveness of drugs are just smoke and mirrors, eh?

    Or perhaps those applied in quantum mechanics where nothing is measurable except in terms of probability of decay rate, probability of momentum, probability of position at any given instant are all just hocus-pocus as well.

    Is Schroedingers Cat dead or alive right now, Oldschool? Surely you've heard of Heisenberg (no, not Brian Cranston's character), the guy who determined that the only way to accurately define anything is in terms of probability.

    It's funny how Heisenberg proved that the observer affects the results of experiments and the term "confirmation bias" was born in light of our current conversation. He proved bias exists in most any experiment and it must be overcome using mathematical analysis and statistical methods.

    And how in the wild world can we rely on things like polling or statistical based research in developing public policy when psychology and sociology are just passing out BS when it comes to proofs based on hypothesis testing according to Oldschool?

    Sadly, liberal arts degrees like Oldschool's don't require any sort of courses in research until you get to the graduate level. At that point, in my experience, they then look for a mathematician friend or relative to do the analysis portion of their papers and do their homework, or at minimum tutor them.

    Ask any advanced mathematics teacher in just about any high school in America who tutors, helps, or just flat does the homework of teachers who are pursuing a masters degree and have to take Research Statistics.

    So I guess since Oldschool doesn't understand the value, accuracy, and reliability of research studies that means they don't count.

    Wow, what a world we would be living in if probability or hypothesis testing was regarded as insignificant because it's just a bunch of "large vague numbers."

    Ever heard of Francis Galton? About a hundred years ago or more he proved that if you have enough "large vague numbers" you can glean a solution from those numbers that is extremely accurate and reliable. It's not hard to find information on "The Wisdom of Crowds" as it has become a very hot topic in the internet age.

    Galton also had some pretty bad ideas about eugenics, but his was pioneering work in the areas of data analysis.

    Statistical confirmation or rejection of the null hypothesis is not "circumstantial evidence" and I am not sure how to convince someone so narrow minded and poorly informed of that fact.

    Oh, yeah, and the peer review process assures that many other mathematicians have reviewed the writers analysis and agreed that the confirmation or rejection of the null hypothesis is valid.

    Good to see that you, with no education or knowledge of the process, are positioned to state that all of that is meaningless.

    You do understand that the articles you are likely to find are not the original research, right Oldschool?

    The articles you are being presented are summaries of the research papers, written in language that hopefully the Average Joe can understand.

    If you wish to read the original studies, and recalculate their mathematical analysis, you have to dig out the reference information which is readily available.

    Is that the issue, Oldschool? You just don't like summaries? I'd post links to the actual research papers if you'd like, but most are already linked in the summary articles somewhere, or are not that hard to find.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Jun 11, 2016, at 10:05 AM
  • Ummmm....

    I reckon it could be said that I am a bit of an over-killer. It goes with my nature as a gigantic over-analyzer.

    Really, though, if you send some coffee into my noggin the stream of consciousness rants just type themselves.

    Perhaps it's Divine Guidance....

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jun 12, 2016, at 8:39 AM
  • The local "good ol' boys" have little say in the matter.

    As for Wally...I'd vote for him again. Decent people make mistakes.

    -- Posted by outsider on Sat, Jun 18, 2016, at 5:51 PM
  • A small correction regarding the sentence of former Sheriff Wally George. The sentencing recommendation was for "not less than one year and one day..." It should be noted, however, that it is within the court's power to impose a harsher sentence if the court feels it is warranted by information stemming from the presentence investigation.

    -- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 3:30 PM
  • Coldbeerbear: He will serve the sentence. It may not be in any nearby facility, or it may be in something like house arrest, but he will indeed serve the time. Don't forget that this case is Federal, not a State of Missouri issue. From my standpoint, as someone who knew him in his professional capacity, I would say that he is already serving it, if not in prison, certainly in his heart and mind.

    -- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 4:05 PM
  • Coldbeerbear: We will know soon how things play out, and one of us will be wrong. But - again, it's a federal case, and it's not one bit like a walk in the park, not even for someone in law enforcement. As for getting back into the business of law enforcement, Mr. George is now 70 years old. Not very likely.

    -- Posted by Kathy Fairchild on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 7:29 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 8:37 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 8:45 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Jun 21, 2016, at 8:47 PM
  • "Now the cops can illegally pull you over to search your vehicle and record whenever they feel like it and still use evidence found during the illegal stop against you."

    This is actually a false misleading statement CB. The case states if there is a legal warrant for your arrest then they can search even if the stop was illegal.

    So no, they can't just pull you over CB & start searching your car without your permission for no reason. Now if they have a warrant for your arrest (wouldn't surprise me) than yes no matter why they pull you over they can arrest you and then search the vehicle. My solution to this problem for anyone, don't have a warrant out for your arrest and this literally doesn't effect you at all.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 8:22 AM
  • Not musing or opinions there CB. Stating the ruling of the Supreme Court of this country.

    In a 5 to 3 ruling, the nation's highest court ruled that evidence seized AFTER a suspect is arrested on a valid warrant, even during an illegal traffic stop, can be admissible in court.

    It's your article man, figured you'd have read it to know what the courts statement was. It says specifically after a suspect is arrested on a valid warrant. This means, factually, that if they do not have a legal warrant than it would not qualify under this ruling. Thus i'll repeat what I said, don't have a warrant out for your arrest & you won't have to worry about this. How exactly is that factually incorrect given the ruling of the highest court in the land?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 11:02 AM
  • You really need to get a new beat besides the Nazi example because that just proves desperation if that's the only example you can come up with.

    So now you change your turn from being mad they can search to being mad about the being pulled over part? Glad you admitting I was correct with the facts of the Supreme Court case.

    No I think cops should have a good reason to pull you over. I don't think they should just randomly pull you over unless it's a checkpoint of some kind. I never said it was, so not sure where you got the idea from.

    But I also don't think someone should just be set free like "oh my bad I shouldn't have pulled you over, here are your drugs back so you can go sell it". I am perfectly fine with the officer being reprimanded for violating policy & the guy should go to jail for having drugs.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 1:29 PM
  • Also you are really reading a lot into this case that isn't there. Where did the court say "ok cops no longer have to have a reason to pull people over"? Where does it say, cops no longer need warrants to search a vehicle of anyone they want? How are you getting to your reasoning that this now means cops can do these things with no problem because of this case?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 1:32 PM
  • What their opinions are don't matter CB. The ruling of the court is what matters. The ruling of courts did not say anything about what you claim it did. The opinions don't matter because the opinions of the others differ. So saying the opinion of a supreme court justice holds more weight with you than mine is fine, but the justice right next to her disagrees. So you are simply picking & choosing which opinion you like most & trying to peddle that as some fact.

    But the only fact was the ruling that was voted on & approved.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 3:10 PM
  • Read the ruling. If they'd like to look back & change it sometime than that's up to them. As of right now the ruling is what it is and it states pretty simply what is & isn't qualified under it.

    Unless the court rules 9-0 on a topic, there is always opposite opinion. Just because you agree with it doesn't make it anymore right or wrong than the other opinion.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jun 24, 2016, at 8:52 AM
  • Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. What matters is the courts ruling at the time because that's the rules people have to follow. Can agree or disagree with the rulings but that won't change what the law is at that time.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sat, Jun 25, 2016, at 1:18 PM
  • When this country was founded, you wouldn't have been able to vote unless you held property, were white & male. I don't know if you would have qualified, but a lot of us wouldn't have - but can now. Opinions moved the law. What do you mean they don't matter? They don't change what the law is now, but they sure change it in the future, which some of us will see part of - and is where our children will live.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Jun 26, 2016, at 8:44 AM
  • Obviously I'm not talking about opinions in general. I'm talking about opinions done at the moment a case is done. The case is done & over, it will not be reviewed for years, maybe even decades. Those judges lost the case 5-3, of course they have a different opinion because they voted differently. Those specific judges it doesn't really matter what they now say after the fact. Even if that law does turn out to be horrible & the courts overturn their ruling one day, very likely chance that all these judges will be dead & gone meaning they didn't have anything to do with the repeal.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jun 27, 2016, at 8:05 AM
  • Thank you CB, I couldn't decide what dressing to use on it but I figured you can't go wrong with ranch.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Jun 27, 2016, at 11:44 AM
  • For further education on this topic, I found this to be much more well written than anything I could come up with.

    Probably shorter too.

    Sure doesn't hurt to hear it from someone who actually is an attorney, former judge, and Supreme Court Justice.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Jun 28, 2016, at 1:05 PM
  • I get it, having a dissenting opinion is a way to in the future say I told you so if the ruling gets changed. But we already knew your opinion because you voted against it. Fine have your opinion out there all you want, but it only means anything if the court changes its mind. And even then, the opinion is really only good for someone to say "see I told you so". It doesn't really cause any change by itself or have any effect on the fact the ruling still stands. It's simply an opinion on a topic, something we all have. It's duly noted & life goes on.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jun 28, 2016, at 2:05 PM
  • Dissenting opinions are quite often used during the debates held when crafting legislation to correct things such as those examples given by Ginsberg. They are far from meaningless.

    Of course that would be back when our legislators and their staffs actually did their jobs and wrote the legislation. Now-a-days they just submit what the lobbyists wrote for them and sign their names to it.

    Also, dissenting opinions are sometimes used in court cases in lower courts that might be somewhat related to the SCOTUS decisions, but fall under the issues raised in the dissent.

    For example, if the Supremes came to a decision, not based on merits of a case, but on a technical point that makes the case moot, and another case comes before a lower court without the technical issue that prompted the SCOTUS decision, then the dissenting opinion, which might spell out what the decision would have been without that technical issue, would be cited along with why it now applies to the case being heard.

    Again, far from useless.

    Apparently someone didn't get Ginsberg's point that many times in our history dissenting opinions provided the road map to correcting bad legislation or bad decisions by earlier courts.

    I would argue these points are far from "I told you so" being the only value. Most judges and lawyers are not in middle school, constantly looking to prove that everybody else is wrong and they are right.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Jun 28, 2016, at 3:57 PM
  • I did actually read the whole article CB. It was a really good article to be honest & actually made some good points about dissenting opinions during the process being good. There was one case where the opinion was written during the process & that swayed the votes.

    However we aren't talking about during the process we are talking about after the process. After the process they use multiple times that dissenting opinions impact is "appealing to the intelligence of a future day". In other words, I think we got this wrong so I hope in the future we change this law to what I want". Isn't that what anyone says when they disagree with any point? There were people with dissenting opinions on segregation in schools, does that mean we should have it just because the opinion of the loser said we should?

    It's like any topic that has two sides, you agree with the one you like. If you like a ruling I'm pretty sure you could care less what the other opinion is because you think they are wrong. Thus you see why I say it's not really important at the time the decision is made? It's not until down the road where the decision can be tested & see how it works to know if it was right or wrong. It's like a draft pick in the NFL, on draft day you don't know if it's right or wrong. You have an opinion though. But you don't really know for 2 to 4 years later.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 29, 2016, at 7:50 AM
  • Once again you are factually incorrect CB. Those searches can only be used against you if you already have a warrant out for your arrest.

    They also can not still pull you over whenever they want, they still legally need just cause. And unless you have a warrant for your arrest, they can not search your vehicle without a warrant or your consent. If they do search your vehicle without a warrant or your consent than that evidence will be inadmissible in court.

    So now that we have the facts straight you can continue with your hateful & discriminatory rants on the police.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 29, 2016, at 2:11 PM
  • Correct the stop was illegal & thus the cop should be punished. But the courts stated if an arrest warrant is already on file for the person pulled over is still valid & thus grounds for the search. U can spin it falsely however u want because u don't agree with the decisions but the facts can't be changed CB.

    A cop can only legally search your vehicle with a warrant or your consent. This doesn't change that rule one bit.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jun 29, 2016, at 5:28 PM
  • So.

    from the "Just for Fun" department-

    The next time somebody tells you "You throw like a girl" the response should be "Which girl?"

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jun 30, 2016, at 1:13 PM
  • The "Throw like a girl" line will never go away. Every father has told their son that when he's learning to play the game at least once & that kid will grow up & do the same to his son.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jul 5, 2016, at 8:16 AM
  • The article itself stated the man was released & the prosecutor said he should have never been arrested. So lets settle down with the first amendment is going away stuff. It's this type of overreaction to nothing CB that makes it hard to ever take you seriously even when something actually serious happens. The king of crying wolf.

    Funny thing is if he'd been burning a cross & saying something racist you'd have been all for the arrest.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 8:07 AM
  • Did I say anything about being on someone else's yard? I assume this guy burning the flag was on his own property otherwise that would be a case of arson & trespassing if it wasn't his won property. I mean the burning cross in the exact same circumstances. Reading is a great thing CB.

    It's not kidnapping CB. You can really stop trying to pretend your opinions are facts & actual laws because clearly they are not. Was it a bad arrest, yes it was. Should the cops be reprimanded in some way, I say yes they should. Small suspension or letter in their file would work. But there was nothing criminal about it like kidnapping. Again, the king of crying wolf & why no one takes people like him seriously cries again.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 10:09 AM
  • Did you take down the car # and report him to the city?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 1:54 PM
  • People are arrested every day on suspicion of charges & because someone filed a false claim. This law was legally on the books and the department got complaints so they acted. The DA (rightfully so) saw the law conflicts with a SC ruling & thus did the right thing by letting the man go and stated the law needs to be revised (removed I think is the more appropriate thing). So once again, the facts of there is no wolf, seems to always get in the way of your crying wolf argument.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 2:21 PM
  • So again you will complain about something but do nothing about it? That's the CB we all know!

    Well considering making arrest for possible crimes isn't part of that guy taking my wife than no I wouldn't appreciate it. However when it's part of your job description than its not kidnapping, it's your job. Once again feel free to ignore facts while you hide in a corner from the real world.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 7:23 PM
  • So you really seem to not understand the concept of a paid legal job & doing said job. Are we now saying we can't even arrest anyone unless they have been convicted of the crime first?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 6, 2016, at 10:32 PM
  • There was a law on the books in that place that stated it was illegal. This law is being fixed as it should be! So while in your own personal opinion it was a completely false arrest, it was not technically a false arrest by the books. So enough with the false arrest stuff until you get your facts straight CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 7, 2016, at 8:28 AM
  • Ha-ha, you know your hatred of cops really makes it hard to take anything you say seriously CB because you only have one agenda, that's get rid of all cops. I have a feeling you know more about the law for lots of reasons that don't involve curious study.

    By the way how is banning oral sex strictly against the LGBT community? Everyone does oral sex so it's not an LGBT thing (at least in happy relationships). Now if you get caught doing it in public that's called indecent exposure which is a pretty fairly used law.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 7, 2016, at 10:48 AM
  • To MDN Editor,

    Do we no longer have access to view up to three free articles per month online? I have been locked out and unable to read anything for the past 3 months. What's up?

    -- Posted by k_m on Thu, Jul 7, 2016, at 11:29 AM
    Response by Sarah Reed:

    Can you call or email me directly and we can find out what is going on with your access.

    Thank you!

  • Again CB using the Nazi's for literally every single one of your arguments is extremely useless. Arresting someone for their religion is not legal in this country so your example is shot down right away anyways.

    Plus comparing marching millions to a gas chamber while releasing someone a few hours later with an apology doesn't seem to add up as much of a comparison.

    And yes your reason behind stupid laws is understandable even with the horrible example. I completely agree that dumb laws should be taken off the books so there won't be mixups like this. I've actually asked a politician once why they have those dumb laws you hear about on books still. I said, why don't you just take a week & go through every rule & just delete them. I was told something about it's actually a long process even to get rid of my wrench example & frankly isn't worth the man power because nobody knows them or enforces them. Now in a case like this where a dumb law is used when it shouldn't be, then it's worth the effort to get rid of it so that it doesn't happen again.

    I think it's dumb & silly laws that everyone agrees is silly should just be able to get wiped off with snap of fingers. But I also understand how if you start that then you'll open up a Pandora's box of who says what is silly & that's where the issues will come up. So I get why they have to have the same process to get rid of the wrench law as they would to get rid of a true debatable law (can't think of one off top of my head).

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 7, 2016, at 3:45 PM
  • So that is the only difference in the cases CB?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 8, 2016, at 8:03 AM
  • I do not agree at all that cops are out of control in any way. If u want to think the vocal extreme minority than fine, but I choose to live in real life.

    However with all the technology we have today I completely agree with cops having all that stuff on them when they are on duty. It's not nearly as expensive as use to be & I think should be implemented for everyone sake. No they don't need it when off duty, bt on duty then I see no problem with having all that to monitor them. Will prove 99% are perfectly honest good cops.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sun, Jul 10, 2016, at 6:59 PM
  • That won't last long.

    I reckon this 8th grader from Atlanta has figured out white privilege exists in America even though several of our fellow posters still choose to believe there's no such thing.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Jul 14, 2016, at 12:54 PM
  • OK I have an honest question for you guys. I hear all this white privilege and things I get because I'm white. Now you know I think most of that is BS, but rather than argue back & forth for no reason I got a question. Lets for arguments sake just say you are correct and there is white privilege.

    What exactly am I supposed to do about it? I don't mean the world in general, I mean literally myself. What am I supposed to do about my white privilege that would make people like you CB happy? Like the CS1950 at Mizzou demanded the Chancellor admit his white privilege. Ok, so if (again for sake of argument) I admit I have white privilege, what then? What is the next steps you would like me to take after admitting that?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 14, 2016, at 1:29 PM
  • What do you mean CB? If I already treat everyone equally and I have no influence over hiring, renting or anything else involving other people. What decisions does my white privilege effect that I don't see?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 14, 2016, at 3:50 PM
  • The first step is admitting that the problem exists.

    You could try speaking out against racism as opposed to the "so it exists, what's the big deal" attitude.

    Then, perhaps admitting to yourself that you have no idea what it is like to grow up as a person of color in America, knowing that there is a fairly large percentage of the population that will immediately judge you negatively, and in many cases seek to undermine you, just because of what you look like.

    And finally, call out your white acquaintances when they toss out the "that guy's just a thug," "acting like a n****r," or "too lazy to work" comments.

    If you tell me you've never heard that, and you are a life long Marshall resident, I'm going to call you a liar because we got no shortage of racists in our community. Most are very careful about disguising it though.

    Hell, within the first week I moved to the area in the late 90's, I was told "he's just a big feelin' n****r" regarding someone by a guy I met for the first time at our local municipal golf course.

    We have racists that are proud of their racism right here around us. Recently I was told, "Yeah, I'm a racist, so what?" by someone I know to be a good-hearted person. Personally I think the poor guy is struggling with the dichotomy of being a good person but having been raised in a society where many have been indoctrinated with racial stereotypes from birth. He's realized he has built-in racial bias, but has no idea what to do about it.

    To admit to one's self that they may have been wrong, and done bad things based on those biases, is difficult. It's much easier to just say "Yeah, I guess I'm biased, but so what, everybody else is too."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 7:59 AM
  • Ok so basically if I admit my white privilege it's then my responsibility to become an activist?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 8:50 AM
  • Well I already treat everyone equally and raise my kids to do the same thing.

    I guess that's why I don't understand the whole "admit your white privilege" thing. If I already am doing what I'm supposed to than what does it matter? That's like making someone apologize for being tall or skinny or good looking isn't it? No control over how people treatment or the life I have based on my birth.

    Did he just shout that for no reason or had you two had some incident where he pulled out in front of you or something?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 2:29 PM
  • I don't think it qualifies one as an activist if you call bulls**t on people when they spout off some racist stereotype crap.

    And if we just look the other way when that stuff happens and say "oh, well, too bad" then I reckon we are part of the problem.

    Racism won't improve as long as other non-racist whites just shrug it off as no big deal just because it doesn't effect them.

    I realize Oldschool hates Nazi analogies, but isn't that sort of what the majority of Germans did pre-WW2? "So we are jailing Jews, what's the big deal, it doesn't effect me."

    I fully realize we aren't sending black folk to the gas chamber by the trainload, but Nazi Germany is a fine example of many good people doing or saying nothing in the face of bad acts perpetrated by their fellow countrymen.

    CBB's comment about compassion reminds me of the comments my daughter has been making lately about how people seem to totally lack empathy for others today.

    Think Trump cares when he insults someone, calling names and throwing around ethnic slurs and stereotypes? Think he gives two hoots if he hurts anyone or if anyone is hurt or actually injured as a result of his ranting and inciting violence?

    I reckon compassion and empathy have been put into the dirty word category by the right, along with socialism and liberalism. Of course, the right's version is that "political correctness" is a weakness.

    Well, heck, I guess now that I type that it's obvious.

    That's kind of what being a liberal or a socialist means, that you have compassion and empathy for others ahead of yourself, you understand that some need help, and you understand that not everyone fits the White Christian Conservative Nationalist mold.

    Speaking of mental defect, have you guys seen any articles about the studies that show a correlation between a preoccupation with death and love of modern conservatism in individuals?

    I found that highly interesting.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 3:40 PM
  • If you read my post CB youd see I said did he pull out in front of you. See u jumped to conclusions yourself without reading. I actually assumed someone dumb enough to yell that would have been the one dumb Enough to cause the action in the 1st place. U seemed to have jumped to your own racist conclusion that just because I'm a white guy I would automatically blame the black guy.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 5:18 PM
  • I agree nothing is worth that. Just was wondering level of idiot. Zero reason means more if idiot than someone with least reason to be upset. Clearly, he's the first one.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 15, 2016, at 8:09 PM
  • If you were in the EXACT same situation as Wally, CB, no you wouldn't be in prison. Someone with the record & reputation, who pays back every dime & loses his job won't be as harshly punished as you seem to imagine.

    Now the case isn't closed yet so he may end up doing a small amount of time, but you'd be in the exact same boat.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Jul 19, 2016, at 8:23 AM
  • So statistically speaking: in a small town (under 20k), when you've been a pillar of the community & high ranking member of the police for over 30 years, you've got no rap sheet to speak of, you've paid back every dime, you admitted to the mistake and accepted your firing with no fuss. So there are statistics on this type of incident? Man you are thorough!

    Wow that was the most biased & over the top one sided article I may have ever read. I mean is it a serious article because I can't stop laughing at it. The over the top pandering to one extreme view is something I come to expect from the Huff, it's the Fox News of the online world.

    First off saying "Black Lives Matter" isn't racist then in the same sentence saying "All Lives Matter" is racist is just dumb. Neither of them are racist on their own. It's how they are used. Assuming everyone who says "All Lives Matter" is ignorant to the BLM cause or racist while saying everyone who says "BLM" is just & just trying to get an equal shake doesn't make any sense. That's like a kid on the playground saying "my dad is better than your dad". That man needs to stick to his NBA reporting.

    The video at the bottom about white privelage, also very entertaining. Nothing like 2 black people talking about white privilege using evidence like, they can't see it but we do so it's real. Wonder how well it would go over if 2 white people made a video about black culture & said, well they don't even know it but we will teach them while on Fox News. Wonder how that would be perceived?

    Man keep those articles coming CB, I needed that this morning.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 20, 2016, at 8:42 AM
  • I wholeheartedly agree that the non-caring attitude of police is disturbing.

    The ambivalent attitude of many of our peers toward these incidents is equally appalling to me.

    "Oh well, mistakes are made" seems to pervade the conversation with many.

    I still say that anytime an officer opens fire without any assessment of the situation or determination of threats, such as in the Tamir Rice case, or the fellow shot this week while laying on the ground, there should be consequences.

    It appears many of these are total over-reactions to clueless 911 calls.

    Have the police not yet learned that there are many hyper-reactive people calling 911 constantly? That perhaps the caller is a scared racist who doesn't like seeing black kids playing air-soft guns in the park with?

    Wouldn't that mean that responders should ***** the situation before acting as it is clear that in many of these incidents the 911 caller had the situation wrong?

    And how the heck is throwing a skinny woman on the ground not excessive use of force in a traffic stop?

    How is shooting a guy already on the ground who has no weapon not excessive use of force?

    How is immediately jumping out of the police cruiser and opening fire on an adolescent, then tackling and handcuffing his sister not an excessive use of force?

    And to you folks who wish to defend this stuff, you have no empathy and no clue.

    Mom's in America shouldn't have to worry that their kids are going to be gunned down for playing in the park, or the street. Especially by the very people whose job it is to protect them.

    I see no other side to this issue. Good luck trying to rationalize the shooting of Tamir Rice.

    Even if there is evidence of petty crime, the perp should not lose their life at the hands of reactionary police. If a suspected criminal runs, it should not be considered acceptable police practice to shoot him because the cops are too lazy, or too out of shape, to chase him. This isn't a Dirty Harry movie, it's real life. Of course, even Harry Calahan only shot people who shot at him first and never jumped out of the car and opened fire on a child.

    It's certain there are justified police uses of force, but there are way, way too many cases, like those cited in CBB's linked article, where there seems to be absolutely no justification, yet there are no repercussions and no remorse by the police.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Jul 23, 2016, at 10:25 AM
  • Who knew "a s s e s s" was a dirty word?

    Meaning "determine what is going on".

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Jul 23, 2016, at 11:40 AM
  • I hope Trump wins.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Sat, Jul 23, 2016, at 8:07 PM
  • Word.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Sat, Jul 23, 2016, at 8:08 PM
  • #dncleaks

    -- Posted by OMG! on Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 10:57 AM
  • This is Hillary's first real test. We will see if she can make the tough calls right away. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz has caused a concern that could alienate a huge portion of the Democratic faithful. Hillary ought to fire her now. This would cause less concern and hard feelings than leaving her in for the convention. It will be interesting to see where this all goes.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 11:22 AM
  • Not sure what the big deal is. Bernie isn't a Democrat, so why would anyone expect the Democratic National Committee to support him?

    Bernie is a self-declared Independent. He chose to run as a Democrat, even though he is not, in order to get media attention.

    Nobody much cares what the "Independent" candidate has to say.

    So, yeah, he wasn't the DNC's guy.

    Neither was Trump for the GOP, if you will recall. The Republican National Committee did everything they could to undermine Trump. Much worse things than a few snarky emails.

    I haven't heard the media making a big fuss about that.

    I reckon Hillary is so boring as a candidate, folks have to try and find controversy anywhere they can get it.

    And if you can't find any, make some up.


    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 12:57 PM
  • The DNC's commitment should be to the voters who register Democratic & vote in their primaries. We've got little enough choice as it is, without the DNC trying to throw the contest. The DNC should be trying to find out who Democratic voters support - not force Democratic voters to pick who the DNC chair wants.

    It's not about whether they're being fair to Bernie as much as it's about whether they're paying any attention to the opinions of their progressive base.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 4:09 PM
  • ... or their centrist base, or whatever. The question is: How much do they care about the opinions of their voters?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 4:16 PM
  • You actually have no clue what happened in the van CB. You have no clue if they broke his neck, he broke his own neck or if it was just a simple accidental fall during the ride.

    Probably should have had a smarter prosecutor who didn't just throw random chargers at officers with no evidence just to try to give her self a name & make black people like her. She'll probably be running for Mayor in the next election.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 27, 2016, at 2:03 PM
  • So let me get this straight CB. Before you've posted how much you hate stereotypes. You hate the perceived racism of people looking at you weird or avoiding you because you're black. You hate how they make snap judgments based solely on the color of your skin or what your wearing. All of those are very valid arguments against hate & racism. And they sound genuine....

    Well until you say this "At this point all cops are suspect. Like a rattlesnake you must give them a wide birth". So tell me again how you don't hate cops? Please tell me how this thinking isn't judging someone simply based on the clothes they wear & position they hold? You even say when seeing a cop you should do what you yourself have spoken out against people doing to you.

    If someone else replaced the word cops with black people, what would your opinion of that person be? SD feel free to jump in here too & help defend CB's hate of a specific group, while at the same time vilifying those who hate against a specific group.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 27, 2016, at 2:30 PM
  • Since you seem to love to avoid the topic, lets try this again. You just said "I don't hate rattlesnakes. I understand that they can be very very dangerous if you get close to them. They are a wild animal driven by reflex, reaction, and self preservation. They don't care about people, or service. They often kill innocent people who pose them no threat what so ever. All the ideas above can also be applied to police.".

    Now once again, replace the word Police with Black people and what would your opinion be CB?

    Also just because someone dies in your custody that doesn't make you guilty of a crime. It may make you at fault to a degree for sure. Nobody said they didn't have fault in the matter. But there is a big difference between fault & criminal. The city admitted faults, they even paid $6 million dollars. They should have had him seat belted in, that was a regulation that they screwed up on. People screw up at work all the time. Sometimes those screw-ups even cost people their lives. It makes them at fault to an extent, but that doesn't mean a crime was committed.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 27, 2016, at 4:00 PM
  • So you're ok with hating & stereotyping an entire group of people, but are against anyone else doing that to you? Just making sure I am understanding you correctly since you are dancing around the issue.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Jul 27, 2016, at 10:18 PM
  • You can make all the excuses you want, but are ok with hating an entire group of people based on the actions of a few? So again, lets reverse that group from police to black people, are you ok with that? You can narrow it down to your specific shade if you'd like since you mentioned that.

    Comparing signing up to the police as being the same thing as signing on to the KKK is ignorant. The KKK states in their oath that they want to protect the white race only. The police state in their oath protect & serve all. As in any group/organization there are bad apples. You are not claiming we should judge an entire group of people without knowing them based on the acts of a few people are you CB?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 8:22 AM
  • So you are perfectly fine with stereotypes & profiling based on the usual in a scenario? Good to know, thank you for clarifying.

    As I said I do not doubt there are racist in law enforcement, just as there are in any profession on Earth. I understand why you would have hatred towards those individuals & want justice & punishment for those individuals. But to lump an entire group as something to fear or something they are not based on the actions of those individuals is stereotyping, profiling and everything you hate about what racist would do to you. You even said to walk away from a cop when you see them solely based off their looks.

    I just find it funny that someone who has such strong opinions of people who do those things to you would turn around and do them to someone else. You don't seem to do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. You seem to do unto others what you hate they do to you.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 11:49 AM
  • I looked at the job description for city administrator on the Marshall, MO website, and noticed that the starting salary range is $90,000 - $125,000. Isn't this nearly a 40 percent increase from what the previous city administrator was making? What is the reason in the huge increase for a new hire? Wouldn't it be interesting if the person hired was still a person from Marshall? Would make you think that this whole thing was kind of rigged from the beginning....but, I don't want to sound paranoid about "Moving Marshall Forward."

    -- Posted by intrigued on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 12:54 PM
  • You are misunderstanding my question apparently CB. I'm not debating whether or not you believe you have a valid reason for your hate. Everyone who hates a group of people has reasons for why they hate those people. You can go on YouTube and just search "why I hate" and find thousands of videos of why people literally hate any & all groups.

    My questions CB is simply how do you validate your double standard of unfair treatment of a group of people? You say you want to be treated fairly and as an equal & not judged by simply what you look like, while then treating someone as unequal & unfairly simply by the way they look.

    My own personal opinion, is that you are not against hate, you are against hate against people you don't personally hate. As long as you hate those people too than by all means stereotype, profile, slur & hate until your heart is content. But if you don't hate someone than how dare someone use slurs, stereotype or profile those people, that makes you a horrible human being to be like that. You probably treat situations like: Hey look, a cop. I've never seen that cop before in my life, but he's a cop & you know how they are so stay away from him, go to the other side of the street to avoid him. Yet when happens to you: Did you just see that guy walk away from me like he's scared? How dare that person, they don't even know me, he's got to be racist!

    Also of course there is suicide by cop. When there are 15 cops with guns pointed at you and you choose to pull a gun & shoot at cops, you know exactly what is going to happen just like when you put a gun in your mouth you know exactly what is going to happen.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 3:12 PM
  • Also I'm not sure where you are getting this straw man argument deal, if anyone is doing that it's you.

    You've stated in past post you hate stereotyping & profiling and being treated unfairly. You then made a post claiming that all cops should be feared & treated unfairly based off a stereotype & profiling. I was just questing how you believe something something is both wrong & right.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 3:18 PM
  • Hey I'm fine with that CB, if you feel scared than I can understand that even if dont agree. But just remember the person who treats you that same way uses the same reasoning you do. So I would suggest being more understanding when someone avoids you as well.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Jul 28, 2016, at 9:28 PM
  • Ok got it. Stereotyping, profiling & hate are horrible, well unless it's something you don't like in which case they are great tools.

    Glad we got that clarification to have leading forward. Thank you for the info CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 29, 2016, at 8:58 AM
  • Just because someone walks away from you doesn't mean their racist. Just same as you walking away from a cop doesn't mean you hate cops (clearly you keep saying you don't). That once again would be stereotyping & profiling a person you know nothing about.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Jul 29, 2016, at 9:01 AM
  • I've noticed other things that bother me in comments made by police officers after shootings such as "he resisted so we had no choice but to shoot" and such.

    When did we begin to teach our officers, or make it seem like good policing, to shoot people for not wanting to be arrested?

    This is real life, officers, not a movie or video game. Have we not made it clear that opening fire should not be the first instinct in response to chaotic situations?

    Oldschool will tell us that if you follow orders, the police won't shoot you. When did it become a capital offense to talk back to a policeman? Did we pass a law somewhere that says you get the lethal injection for smarting off to a cop? It appears that many get shot whether they follow orders or not.

    Once again, the basis of the legal system is that the punishment fits the crime. So how is it that killing a suspect being detained for shoplifting, selling cigarettes, or a traffic violation is considered proper action? In these cases the process of getting arrested is far worse than the punishment for the crime, so how is that not raising any red flags?

    How is it you open fire on a mentally challenged individual in the first place? How is it you are such a bad marksman that your excuse for hitting the black man who is attempting to help the guy while laying on the ground is that you "missed the other guy" from 40 yards with an assault rifle? I call bu11sh1t on that one. Following that story, I believe that officer should get an immediate pink slip.

    Spare me the NRA inspired "I was in fear for my life" response by most every one of these officers. So, you are on top of a suspect and have 4 officers there helping you, but you thought the guy on the ground was a threat? Were you high on the job, officer?

    Or, I keep going back to Tamir Rice. The city admitted that the officers were responsible for a wrongful death, yet they were not charged.

    Do we not train officers to assess the situation and preserve life first? Seems to me that a common denominator in many shootings is the inability of the police to determine and initiate a proper response to the situation.

    Shoot first and then assess the situation? Is that what we are telling them is the proper way to handle confrontation? Of course, there is Philando Castile, where there was no confrontation and the officer killed him anyway.

    I would think all those pro-life right-wingers should be shouting "all life is sacred" and be protesting shootings of unarmed folk as "against God's word."

    Where y'all at?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Jul 31, 2016, at 9:33 AM
  • "Or, I keep going back to Tamir Rice. The city admitted that the officers were responsible for a wrongful death, yet they were not charged."

    There is a difference between being responsible & being guilty of a crime.

    Given the facts of the case, no jury would convict the officers which is what the prosecutor knows and why they never filed charges. Unlike other prosecutors, clearly the Cleveland prosecutor knows better than to waste tax dollars on cases they already know they don't have a chance of winning because the crime just isn't there.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 1, 2016, at 9:15 AM
  • Just because cops choose that kind of trial doesn't mean the judgment of the trial is any less valid.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 1, 2016, at 2:47 PM
  • Actually no it doesn't. They have been acquitted of all charges. Whether that's jury trial or bench trial, being found innocent means the same CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 1, 2016, at 3:48 PM
  • How much more reaching do you have to do before you just accept the reality that just because you hate cops & think they are all guilty that doesn't mean reality agrees? I don't care about your biased & so called conflict of interest, if found innocent in a court of law than they are innocent according to the court of law. It's really not as hard as you seem to think, should have gone to school in Marshall, maybe you'd be mor intelligent

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 1, 2016, at 9:30 PM
  • Also it's impossible to avoid conflict of interest when it comes to a police officer case. I understand what your saying. But exactly how do you ever plan to fix the fact that those cases will always involve police, prosecution & judges?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 1, 2016, at 10:27 PM
  • So how many of you folks out there voted for Chief Wana Dubie on the Democratic Primary ballot for Senator?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 1:19 PM
  • -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 3:13 PM
  • Can't wait for results to start coming in!

    -- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 6:37 PM
  • Me too!

    -- Posted by moodyblue on Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 6:41 PM
  • Only 15 more minutes.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 6:42 PM
  • Thanks for the link to Chief Wana Dubie, SD. Much as I'd like to see Kander beat Blunt, the T-shirt Dubie was wearing in the news article you linked to should have gone on to the general election. LOL!!!

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 9:51 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 2:24 PM
  • What I really want to know is if the Chief knows he spelled "wanna" and "doobie" wrong?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Aug 3, 2016, at 2:26 PM
  • Stumbled across this today and thought it worth of sharing.

    I have to admit, the guy comes up with some pretty good one liners.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Aug 4, 2016, at 8:12 AM
  • Once again the police will be doing their drive with their FYI checkpoint. CB doesn't like police doing their job, I wonder why someone wouldn't like the police doing their job?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 5, 2016, at 8:09 PM
  • Coldbeerbear--You are so right. The Police are an oppressive force stripping away our rights! The nerve of them, attempting a proactive approach as opposed to a reactive one in order to save lives. Lets stand in front of traffic, endangering other peoples lives as well as our own in protest!

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Sat, Aug 6, 2016, at 7:32 AM
  • While we're being proactive, let's have the police stand at every convenience store as well to tell would be robbers that if they steal, they will get a free ride to the police station. Let's have cops stand at each corner and warn people to not walk in front of moving vehicles. Let's have them stand at open windows and warn people not to jump out of them. If someone is dumb enough to drink and drive, I hope they are arrested before they hurt one of my loved ones. I have been stopped at a few sobriety checkpoints and I did not feel inconvenienced one little bit.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sat, Aug 6, 2016, at 7:16 PM
  • "Probable Cause" or the lack thereof is the problem with Sobriety Checkpoints.

    The 4th Ammendment outlawed "fishing expeditions" by the government.

    Unfortunately, state legislatures bowed to political pressure from Mothers Against Drunk Driving, who had already been given DWI laws, and a steady lowering of BAC that results in a DWI, as another way to sound tough on crime in election campaigns.

    So we legalized the midwest version of "Stop and Frisk" by passing laws that legalize checkpoints. "Show me your papers", the once haunting Nazi method of harassing the public is now completely legal. I have to think Supreme Court challenges have been mounted, but as of yet, we still allow police to stop everyone in nothing more than a fishing expedition to see if we can catch someone breaking the law.

    I'm all for reduced traffic fatalities, but I always thought we lived in a country where there actually had to be a good, provable reason (beyond driving at night) that you had committed a crime before you could be detained.

    I am also concerned about how many folks think it's acceptable for police to detain, bully, intimidate, or otherwise violate civil rights of citizens these days. If you find yourself thinking, "eveyone knows you lick the officers boots if he tells you, otherwise you're going to get in trouble" then you have already succumbed.

    And I do not believe that is the relationship between government (police) and the general public that our founders had in mind.

    That police motto says "To Protect and Serve" not "To Stop and Frisk."

    Since some like to point out the extremely low percentage of cops that perform bad acts, I'd like to interject that the probability of that one driver with the .10 BAC, that gets found out of the 300 or so people stopped, will actually cause an accident is extremely low.

    Yes drunk driving accidents occur, but the probability that singling out one the of millions of drunks on the road at any given time is going to prevent an accident is near zero.

    So the mathematics don't work out and what we are left with as justification is this: money.

    The officers make overtime pay that is provided through a government grant so no budget money is spent. They make money from operating checkpoints personally.

    Then the county collects revenue from whatever citations are handed out. Usually less than 1% of people detained get ticketed, but money is made. Even more if we can bust someone for improper registration or simple misdemeanor pot possession in the process.

    So spare us the "its all about saving lives" rhetoric, it's all about making money, for the officers personally, and for the county.

    Sure sounds good to tell the masses it's about public safety though.

    What were those words Ronald Reagan said were the most scary in the English language? "We're from the government and we're here to help you."

    Yeah, that's it.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Aug 7, 2016, at 10:44 AM
  • Coldbeerbear--They do have programs for people that are intoxicated...they are called Cabs, Uber, Friends, Family..pretty much anyone. And there is also a law for places selling alcohol to people that are already intoxicated...that is called the DRAM shop law. Yet no where in all your posts do you hold the individual accountable for their actions...its always someone elses fault. It's crazy they expect 21 and older to act like responsible adults and make the right decision that doesn't endanger the lives of others just because they cant obey the law.

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 8:55 AM
  • Hey Interested, don't try to make to much sense to CB. In the dream world he lives in the cops are the problem with society and without cops crime would go away. He hates cops more than the Hitler hated Jews. See, I can use Nazi reference too CB :).

    SD you & CB can continue to go on rants all you want, but the fact is the check points are legal and have been to the supreme court & until that changes it is perfectly legal. Guess what, our founding fathers had multiple things that didn't work the way they originally thought because society changes. That's why we have amendments.

    Personally I hope they bust multiple drunks, multiple idiots who don't pay tickets and multiple idiot pot heads and got stop smoking long enough to leave it at home. Make that money MPD!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 8:58 AM
  • Those laws are pretty vague and very hard to enforce. I mean when is to drunk? You want them to cut people off after 2 beers, because that would make you legally to drunk to drive.

    It's Marshall, walk home? Take a DD with you? Don't drink until your drunk? Drink at home? Plenty of ways to get home with no tickets or arrest. And no I've never worried a but getting home at 1:30am in Marshall because there is no place to go to be out until 1:30am and I'm not a college kid so no reason to get that drunk anymore.

    Yes if you are driving around Marshall at 1:30am your odds of getting pulled over will increase because you are probably the only car on the road. If you are seen leaving a bar than it's already a decent assumption you'd be over the limit, and so if you swerve or do anything wrong they have decent reason to pull you over. Now turns out your just a bad driver & sober than sure they let you go. But they had good reason to pull you over.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 2:34 PM
  • Spoken like a politician, Oldschool.

    Especially that last paragraph that makes little sense but conveys the message as I stated it, it's all about the money. Were you high when you typed that?

    But if we openly admitted it was just about OT pay for the police and revenue for the City and County, I reckon people might not be quite so supportive. "Saving lives" which is not proven to happen by conducting these checkpoints, sounds much better.

    Keep in mind that I don't drink much, rarely enough to even register, I have never had a DUI or DWI or anything like that, and I agree with tecman that calling a cab or designating a driver is definitely the way to go.

    I just don't like things like warrant-less searches, suspension of habeas corpus, and police fishing expeditions in the name of public safety.

    I also believe that we have rights and freedoms that, if not watched out for and protected, will disappear. The elimination of which is justified by drummed up public opinion generated through clever political manipulation of the great unwashed masses.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 2:37 PM
  • Exactly, Oldschool. If someone is actually seen driving drunk after staggering to their car, then the police should definitely pull them over and make the bust.

    Again, there should have actually been a crime committed, or in this case the police would have some pretty solid evidence that there was a crime being committed, before stopping the driver.

    Stopping everyone to see if we can catch them doing something illegal is wrong. Yes, state legislatures passed laws making it legal, but that sure doesn't make it right.

    There are many briefs filed both for and against these checkpoints and so far, judges have decided that the unconstitutional inconvenience to the public is worth less than the supposed public safety provided.

    However, my understanding of the current state of this is that the statistics are not indicating any improved public safety that can be directly attributed to sobriety check points.

    It's a matter of time until judges start listening to the facts and data instead of the intuitive passion of the argument as to why it's ok to suspend a constitutional right in the name of public safety.

    Again, if you can prove it saves lives, then you have a point. If you only feel like it saves lives because it sounds like it would, then it's an unconstitutional law and bad judicial decision to uphold it.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 3:00 PM
  • I wish I didn't care about my life enough to get high! I hear it's great, but of course I enjoy my life so why waste it by getting high?

    Thank you for the politician compliment.

    As usual you can deny reality and wish you lived in a dream world where everything you believed in was true all you want. But the fact is the real world doesn't work like that.

    Frankly if they change the laws to make checkpoints illegal that's fine with me as well. I don't really care about them one way or another. It doesn't effect me or my rights any, other than a minor slow down in my day if I'm stopped. If they are illegal than once again it doesn't effect me either way. I don't have tickets or warrents outstanding, I don't have drugs or anything illegal in my car, I maintain my legal documents and don't drink & drive. So pull me over or not I'm not going to have any issues. Now if you will have these issues than I understand why you would not like them.

    Does it help save lives for 100% fact? That's impossible to know. Even if you find a drunk driver, you can't say without the checkpoint that driver would have killed someone. Same as you can't say that idiot goes kills a family in a car would have been stopped by the checkpoint because what if the checkpoint wasn't on his way to that wreck?

    Now does it help cut down some drunk driving? That also is common sense of yes. Does it stop the town drunk, no nothing is gonna stop that guy. But if a rational person sees the paper & knows there is a checkpoint tonight, and I did this I college days, than you decided to either drink at home or drink less because the risk isn't worth the reward. So yes it does help.

    Now is it to a level that makes it worth it? I honestly don't know, that's up to the courts to decide & so far they say yes.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 8, 2016, at 4:07 PM
  • That's quite a stretch, someone's domicile, to a vehicle traveling on public roads. Not much of a parallel there......

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 5:26 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 7:35 AM
  • Ok so we can all assume CB is probably a pot head by his rant on pant that nobody even talked about.

    I actually don't have a problem with pot. I wish they'd make it legal and tax the hell out of it to raise some money. I don't personally use it because it's illegal and I don't feel like ruining my life just to have the munchies.

    I always find it funny that people say it's not addictive. It's clearly addictive. Now is it as bad as meth? Obviously not! But it is 100% addictive as is anything that gives you pleasure. If it's not, than why do pro athletes lose millions cause they can't kick the habit for even a few months? Or regular Joe who gets busted multiple times but still does it?

    Your new Tecman, CB can go from 0 to Nazi faster than a drag car can go 0 to 60. It never makes any sense but CB never lets common sense get in the way of a good argument.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 8:32 AM
  • Don't mean to be the defender of stoners everywhere but another misconception needs clarification.

    No physical addiction to pot has been found. You apparently don't get withdrawl symptoms, or "dope sick", like with opiods or amphetamines, or the DT's like alcohol, or the shakes, sweats, and anxiety like nicotine.

    Pot creates, my reading tells me, what is known as "psychological addiction." Meaning that your brain tells you that it would be nice to be stoned NOW!

    Similar to caffeine, or sugary drinks, or McDonald's french fries, or whatever else folks seem to crave, but will experience no physical symptoms if not provided.

    So, in response to your pretty weak analogy and apparent lack of knowledge of the subject, I assume you are referring to Ricky Williams about 10 years ago as "athletes who give up millions." Ricky had known personality issues and decided he would rather smoke pot than take Paxil.

    I would say those pro athletes you mention are much like the overweight person who can't control their desire for Coca-cola or french fries.

    Many athletes smoke pot. It is pretty common these days. I know of none other than Ricky that actually quit just to get high. Many have been busted, but had not quit their jobs yet. They were forced out after the bust, or multiple busts.

    I would also posit that significantly more pro athletes have ruined their careers with alcohol.

    But thanks for another example of how you convince yourself something is true because your intuition says it must be. And, of course, one's own intuition is infallible, right?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 11:38 AM
  • No I did not mean a physical addiction like meth, that's why I stated it's not like meth.

    But it is an addiction, and actually no I didn't even think about Ricky Williams when I stated that. Charles Rogers was a WR for the Lions who literally wouldn't stop smoking pot for even one week to pass a drug test he knew was coming. The same thing happened to Justin Blackmon of the Jaguars. Josh Gordon just came back after a two years suspension for the same thing.

    I completely agree that it's a mental addiction much like caffeine is. I guess we are simply arguing two different things. If something is so addictive to you that you would ruin your life rather than stop doing something I call that being addicted to it. I've known people personally who were so addicted to video games that they lost their families & careers.

    No not everyone that does pot is addicted, probably average user isn't. But people can become addicted to pot.

    Also very true that more lives are ruined by alcohol!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 1:29 PM
  • I'm surprised CB hasn't jumped all over the cops in Marshall who got caught lying and ruined a case! I figured he'd have been ready to claim a trophy or something.

    Kudos to the prosecutor for saying he wouldn't file anymore cases with them as involved. Basically demanding the officers be fired.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 1:31 PM
  • Caffeine actually causes pretty serious detox reaction for at least 3 days or so. A 3 day splitting migraine and exhaustion are no fun.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 4:11 PM
  • CB must be in jail somewhere. Lol.

    -- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 4:12 PM
  • Please tell me if I am missing something here. Why is Mr.Stouffer,Proseuting Attorney not prosecuting those police officers that were involved in Mr.Roettgen' case ? They broke a law by saying the guy did something that he really did not do. We're they embarrassed that he got away in the Wal-Mart parking lot so they made the story sound better ? I am always on the side of the law and have high respect for the police but come on...cops like that make all of them look bad.Makes me wonder what else is going on or has gone on . Don't mean to offend anyone sorry if I did. But feel worse for anyone who ever has been wrongly accused.

    -- Posted by Redmarshall on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 8:00 PM
  • I believe what you are saying Coldbeerbear. Don't the police know by know that this exactly what gets a riot started. Can hope that they get their punishment as they should.

    -- Posted by Redmarshall on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 9:27 PM
  • What reason would Mr.Stoufer have in not prosecuting them ? I just want to know why ??? Maybe he could give us All a good reason as to why.

    -- Posted by Redmarshall on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 10:05 PM
  • Okay. I get what you're saying. If this is the way it's gonna be it makes a crazy,sad,scary world. What's scarier is that our official's apparently allow or condone such. I thought they were there to protect us not harm us. Like you said before, have that cell phone ready and record, record ,record. Thank you for responding.

    -- Posted by Redmarshall on Tue, Aug 9, 2016, at 11:20 PM
  • I completely agree with CB on filming cops! Personally I'm going to start that because I want to get paid, and for that very rare time something bad happens I'll be happy to start the bidding war of the news stations for the footage. Probably got just as good of odds as winning the lottery, but at least the video doesn't cost anything to make so least I'm not out anything in this lottery. So yes I agree, film away!

    I also agree they should prosecute these officers for purgery. And they just might do that. Just because he didn't' say he would in this statement doesn't mean he won't. We can all agree we haven't heard the last of this case.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 8:21 AM

    Here is an article about the case from the Columbia Tribune. Slightly more detailed, but mostly same info.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 10:49 AM
  • -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 10:53 AM
  • A little more info in this story link from Columbia Oldschool than the MDN. Apparently, the officers never made any sworn statements, so they can"t be prosecuted for perjury. They can be brought up on filing a false report, but it's a misdemeanor and has a 1 year statute of limitations.

    Anyone who thinks in a small town PD that the chief isn't aware of what's going on in a big felony case needs to buy a bridge I'm selling.

    -- Posted by Cheese on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 11:22 AM
  • I think Stouffer could not proceed with prosecution of the weapons charges due to the fact that the officers statements and reports do not jive with the video, so he couldn't very well put the officers on the witness stand to testify that the suspect had a gun, as the defense would shred their stories in front of a jury. I also assume that the passenger in the car was going to testify that there was no weapon involved.

    I think the officer who fired his weapon improperly will no doubt be disciplined. Hopefully he will be fired as we have way too many trigger happy cops already.

    And as we all now know, it is not illegal for a cop to lie in order to extract a confession or a statement from a suspect. In fact, we have consultants who train officers on how to do just that.

    So, how in light of this encouragement to lie in certain situations, do we expect the police to then be truthful when it matters?

    Are we sure they themselves are crystal clear on when lie's are ok and when they are not?

    One thing for sure about modern humans, we have become experts at muddying the waters of everything everywhere all the time.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 12:58 PM
  • He would have been a fool to try and prosecute with that evidence. Glad he called them out publicly for it too.

    It speaks volumes MPD turned down a standard procedure MSHP independent investigation right after it happened according to the Como article. How about them hanging up on the reporter. Keeping it classy. :)

    -- Posted by Cheese on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 1:07 PM
  • I posted this in the article but it is also relevant here. 1. The Columbia Tribune states that MPD had the video the day after the incident. Who were the first people to see the video and know that the report wasn't true? The police chief? 2. The false report spurred the involvement of over 20 agencies nationwide. That's wasted money over a lie. 3. Marshall is hurting for money and corruption in a police department opens the town up for lawsuits. 4. The officers involved were perfectly fine with seeing a man charged with the crime that one of them actually committed. Not to mention that a stray bullet could have hit someone else. I don't think that putting the two officers on leave is enough the house needs to be cleaned! There are some wonderful police officers in our force who deserve to move up in the department. Give them a chance and let go of the people causing the problems. Marshall is run like a police state under the leadership of this department they seem to be ordered to harass everyone they see out after a certain time at night. It's time for the police to target the bad guys and leave everyone else alone. Live and let live.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 6:17 PM
  • I agree with you Free-Soul. Time to clean house,top to bottom.

    -- Posted by Redmarshall on Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 7:21 PM
  • I'm just tired of seeing cops who think the answer to a fleeing suspect who has committed what I would consider a minor crime (parole violation, shoplifting, speeding...) is to open fire.

    When did gunning down the suspect (or attempting to) in the street start to be considered good police work?

    If a guy runs, you chase him. If the cop can't get that done, maybe he should consider another line of work.

    If a suspect takes off in a car, how about getting on the radio and calling for back-up first? How about jumping in your car and following to get an idea of where he is headed while calling in his location?

    Seems like the common denominator in many shootings that make the news is a police officer who decided that opening fire was the best response. Are they trained to do that? Shoot first and evaluate the situation later?

    All this time I thought they were taught to protect life first, even that of the suspected criminal.

    Now it seems the attitude is that gun-fire is always the answer.

    "Do exactly what I say or I'll kill you" is not what I would consider good police work. If this is the mentality we are encouraging among officers, then we have a systemic problem.

    And if officers can't control their own emotions in the execution of their jobs, then they need to consider another line of work.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Aug 11, 2016, at 8:34 AM
  • I wonder who Ron Ott will pick to replace Mr. Ramsey on the council!

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Thu, Aug 11, 2016, at 5:13 PM
  • Racism or any of the "isms" are linked with low iq how else can you justify judging someone based on physical characteristics alone? This is a big world everyone is different your skin color doesn't automatically make you more prone to much of anything. We have problems with "race," in this country as well as in the community but this conversation has devolved and really doesn't serve a purpose except for the encouragement of generalizations. It's not helping much of anything what's the point?

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Aug 12, 2016, at 11:40 PM
  • Actually I like reading one paragraph rants loaded with bad grammar, misspellings, and run-on sentences and then trying to interpret them into English.

    It's better brain exercise than Lumosity.

    (That's sarcasm, by the way. I have learned that when posting here sometimes you have to point out the jokes and snark so people don't get all unhinged.)

    It's also why I just can't stay away from "Speak Out."

    Also, Free-soul, you seem far too moderate and enlightened to enjoy participation in the muck of internet comments.

    For me, it's a nice window into the minds of modern Americans. Sadly, I think it's a ramshackle trailer window, with Velvet Elvis and a Confederate Battle flag on the wall, a big pile of Old Milwaukee cans in the corner, and a Trump sign in the yard.

    Plus, aside from my own personal entertainment, I reckon everyone is entitled to their opinions and it might be good for me to read and consider others thoughts, even if they seem radical, out-of-left-field, just plain wrong, or perhaps something I have not considered before.

    Like I have said before, wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding takes some amount of effort, and a certain amount of empathy.

    I reckon name calling comes out when someone let's their emotions get a hold on their thinking. Then again, there seems to be some folks today who are constantly itching for a fight. One principle of Modern America that I have learned is that everybody thinks they are a bad a$$.

    I will admit, however, that once in a while it is fun to pick on Oldschool.

    To have a good discussion, you have to focus on the issue, not the person. Everybody learns that sooner or later, just takes longer for some.

    Hope you will keep chiming in as this blog was down to about three of us. New opinions are always welcome, at least by me, even if I don't agree. Name calling is a waste of words, but I reckon I have to overlook that aspect of human behavior to get to the good stuff.

    Kind of like how police have to be the kind of people that can get called "worthless pig" and not shoot anyone, not let it affect their own personal esteem, and keep doing their job. It's not for everybody.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Aug 13, 2016, at 9:56 AM
  • The same thing could be said about the rioters CB. Is there something they could do better in response to what they feel is injustice besides burning innocent businesses & harming their own communities? You know like ANYTHING ELSE?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Sun, Aug 14, 2016, at 4:39 PM
  • What would be nice is if they would just wait until the facts come out. They said this cop had on a body cam, so lets wait for the footage & see what it shows. If the guy had a gun threatening police (which is all anyone has said so far) than it was a good shoot & it's that guys fault he's dead and nobody should stand up for him or use him as an example of anything other than what not to do by him.

    If it turns out to be more of a SC issue than the cop needs to be arrested & tried & BLM can use him as a matter of police brutality despite being a criminal.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 15, 2016, at 7:57 AM
  • Oversimplification? In this particular case I think he's summed it up quite accurately.

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Aug 17, 2016, at 10:55 PM
  • What is the law for over serving that could get the businesses in town in trouble legally?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 4:29 PM
  • Ok CB what does that stuff have to do with cops? Those laws have to do with liability after something happens. Also good luck proving that the employees saw them stumbling & visibly intoxicated after something happens. Unless there is video they can just say he walked out just fine.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 9:20 PM
  • Ok, so based off of your reasoning, people being stopped/harassed/inconvenienced for no reason, do you feel it is unlawful to be searched at the airport or federal building?

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 11:37 PM
  • So, it should be the public's responsibility/dime that is spent to provide transportation for people who are irresponsible? Why does every idea you propose involve shifting responsibility away from those responsible? That is the main issue with society IMHO with this sense of entitlement, shifting blame, and taking no accountability for their own actions. As for law say they cause more trouble than they're worth.....that is a gross overstatement based off of a few bad apples, and a ton of shoddy, biased journalism that reports before facts are proven. Not to mention every Tom, Dick, and Harry think its in their best interests to resist police because the believe they are in the right. Heres an idea, don't resist and comply with their commands...since everyone in the world is recording, if the police are in the wrong than a lawsuit will happen. But instead everyone is a Billy Bad A** and argues, taunts, and resists. I am not saying there aren't some instances of racial profiling, but that doesn't mean the majority of officers are bad. It isn't one way or the other; they aren't all good or all bad. Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 4:50 AM
  • As for your earlier statement,

    "By buying a ticket to get in a commercial airline I agree to abide by the safety rules of that company."

    By applying and purchasing a Drivers License, you agree to abide by the safety rules of that state.

    -- Posted by tecman1007 on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 4:52 AM
  • Once again CB, what laws can officers use to go after the sellers of alcohol. Unless the buyer is under age it's legal to sell. It's legal to sell a lot of, and a business only gets in trouble for selling to much AFTER an accident occurs. A cop can't sit in a bar, see some guy stumble up & get another beer & then go arrest the bartender. It's even legal to get stinking drunk at a bar as long as you don't drive home. If a drunk has a DD sitting next to him drinking pepsi all night, does the bartender still not have to serve the drunk since he knows he's not driving home?

    So please, how again would you recommend the cops police the bars, liquor stores & what not of Marshall in order to stop drunk driving?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 7:35 AM
  • I actually did google CB. I googled the phrase you gave me to google (thank you for the direction by the way) and here is what pops up:

    It only talks about liability not breaking the law. So maybe you gave me the wrong thing to google, I googled "Missouri dram shop law intoxicated persons". If that's what you meant you seem to be misunderstanding liability for law. So if you want to read that article & let me know what I've maybe missed or explain how that allows a cop to walk into Applebees & slam them for selling alcohol, I'm all ears.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 12:54 PM
  • I hate to interrupt the current conversation but I thought I would share this so everyone can mark their calendar for August 21, 2017's solar eclipse.

    We in Saline County are right in the "Path of Totality" so will get to see a total eclipse at 1:10:22PM (CDT) that day.

    From that map, it looks like just north of Marshall and Arrow Rock are smack dab on the centerline of the totality.

    Isn't science and mathematics wonderful in that we already know what is happening and what time it will happen?

    Otherwise we might think it's some sort of act of a omnipotent entity who is punishing us for improper allegiance by turning off the sun.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 4:17 PM
  • And as we are directly on the Path of Totality, I think we need to get the local Tourism folks stirred up to promote Marshall and Saline County as a destination to observe the eclipse.

    Perhaps the Moving Marshall Forward folks could put up a council resolution declaring Aug. 21, 2017 as "Eclipse Day" or something.

    I know..... How about a press release from Jim the Wonder Dog about how he predicted this occurrence back in 1937.

    "Come to Marshall and see the phenomenon predicted by the official "Wonder Dog" of the State of Missouri!"

    Perhpas we could resurect Sunny Dae & the Nights to perform as well.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Aug 22, 2016, at 4:29 PM
  • I have marked my calendar SD! That's actually pretty cool. And yes that's what makes modern science great is the predictability of it. Not some book that is about as vague as a fortune cookie & has no predictability despite being supposedly written by someone who knows all.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 23, 2016, at 7:48 AM
  • Does the Huffington Post ever write articles that have actual facts behind them or do they only post articles with hear say & innuendo like the last one you linked CB? I mean every article you seem to link CB is just full of hear say & at best circumstantial evidence.

    There are literally no facts in that article other than word of the plaintiff. Doesn't mention having any witnesses or any other testimony from anyone other than themselves claiming "they were mean to us".

    For all the heat Fox News takes (mostly deservedly so) the Huff Post is actually just as bad if not worse coming from the other side of the aisle. It really is no better than any other tabloid journalism like the National Enquirer.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 23, 2016, at 11:50 AM
  • Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, thanks CB. I needed a good laugh today.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Aug 23, 2016, at 3:16 PM
  • each, his own...but with the world as screwed up as it is and with us having to chose between two horrible choices to be our next leader I think I'd look for something other than the misuse of $60K (or whatever it was) to totally freak out about.

    -- Posted by outsider on Tue, Aug 23, 2016, at 9:35 PM
  • So if you are like me, you are trying to figure out what makes The Clinton Foundation such a boogie-man that we keep hearing about over and over.

    I guess I had to go to a source outside the US to find what I think is a pretty factual and seemingly unbiased article on what the deal is, the good old BBC.

    I also have to admit that I am posting the following link on the same subject, not because it is unbiased, but because it contains one of the best one-liners I have heard in a while.

    "This has not stopped much of the political media from acting, collectively, like a goldfish with a head injury."

    As a long time admirer of internet comment snark, I can't wait to use the 'goldfish with a head injury' line.

    Isn't it great, the myriad of things you can learn from the internet.

    And I have to assume that the only reason we keep getting hit with The Clinton Foundation over and over is that the right wingers have nothing else to saddle Hillary with.

    She's evil all right. I mean what kind of nut-job would want to stay married to a guy who started a foundation to try and lower the price of AIDS medication, feed hungry kids, or reduce extreme poverty.

    Is that what passes for evil on the Trumpian-right these days?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Aug 24, 2016, at 8:42 AM
  • Don't want to be popped for doing something illegal? DONT DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL!!!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 24, 2016, at 7:24 PM
  • Didn't say nothing to hide nothing to fear, said simply don't do something illegal if you don't want to get busted for doing something illegal. Please tell me what is so wrong about that statement? Tell me how it's not someone's fault they are popped for doing something illegal when they are doing something illegal?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 25, 2016, at 7:55 AM
  • How about because the constitution says that "fishing expeditions" to see if we can dig up something to charge you with are against the law?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Aug 25, 2016, at 1:05 PM
  • .... and speaking of Constitutions.

    We have several ballot initiatives to vote on this coming November so I thought posting a link so folks could study up a little and know what they are voting on before getting to the polls and getting surprised might be a good idea.

    No political leanings on that link. Just the official ballot language.

    I am fairly sure that if you want political perspective on these measures, Google can find plenty.

    I found it interesting that Proposed Constitutional Amendments 2, 3, & 4 and Proposition A are from Initiative Petition, which means they come from citizen proposals.

    #6 comes from our dysfunctional legislature because the Elephants are just sure that Donkeys must be cheating in elections, otherwise there wouldn't be any Democrats in government anywhere, right?

    Besides that, no one can vote without a voter registration card, right? And you can only get that after registering to vote with your County Clerk so why do voters need another ID beyond that one? Then there is that projected $2.1 million dollar cost. Why waste our tax dollars to suppress votes from people with no drivers license?

    The only one I, personally, would like to encourage folks to vote for is #1, the .01% (one penny for every $10 you spend) that you are already paying to support our parks, historic sites, and soil and water conservation.

    All good ideas in my opinion.

    Not that I do or don't support the others, just that #1, in spite of my anti-tax nature, is a very small burden that helps pay for valuable programs.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Aug 25, 2016, at 1:41 PM
  • The people who are actually in charge of saying what is constitutional or not states that alcohol checkpoints are legal so you can all stop with the "it's illegal" stuff because you're just flat wrong. You can disagree, but least get the facts straight.

    Also again I didn't specify it was just from those stops alone. I once again simply stated if you don't want to be busted for doing things illegal than maybe you should just not do illegal things? Pretty simple statement to me.

    I am 100% with you on the #1 Smart. I'm all for helping those programs especially at such a small amount.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Aug 25, 2016, at 3:17 PM
  • Anyone know why the school officer quit?

    -- Posted by DAgates on Thu, Aug 25, 2016, at 10:00 PM
  • Sadly, Mizzou has many more problems than Black Lives Matter, although I like how Fox News summed them all up under that category.

    How about the rape allegations against football players that led to a suicide?

    Gary Pinkel was a great football coach, but plenty of controversy followed him, personally, as well.

    How about the continuous drama that is Mizzou basketball? Like being forced to vacate all wins from 2013-2014, or a decade or so ago when a player was sleeping with the university president's wife.

    Anybody remember "Page Laurie Arena" where the Walton family wanted to name the new basketball arena after their daughter who never even attended MU?

    Remember Quin Snyder?

    Or how about the drama created now that our dysfunctional state legislature has decided to punish MU for responding to black protests?

    Then there's the fact that Mizzou is more expensive than any other public university in the state. More expensive than other state universities in this region as well.

    This'll stir up the clubbers. Could it be that folks have discovered that an MU education perhaps isn't worth the price you pay?

    I think there are plenty of reasons MU's enrollment is down, race relations is just one.

    But, hey, feel free to blame it on black folks. It's the thing to do in today's right-wing nut-job view of America.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 7:57 AM
  • That was pretty cool though, how Yahoo was copying Fox News who was copying The Daily Caller.

    Don't know about Yahoo, but those last two are definitely not considered credible news sources. They are much better described as "right-wing propaganda machines."

    Once again, nice spin by The Daily Caller to turn enrollment decline into something caused by black people.

    Ameri-Trump is going to be tons of fun.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 8:05 AM
  • First off SD it's funny that you call Yahoo & other site not credible news & "right-wing propaganda machines." Considering you & CB both love using the Huff Post for most of your points which is just as biased & not credible because it's a pure "left-wing propaganda machine.". So kind of pot calling the kettle black there. Also CB, saying that article has nothing to back up it's thesis, please refer to almost all the Huff Post articles you site (especially the last one you posted).

    As for Mizzou, the whole debacle over a bunch of cry babies making up stories is the only reason for the sharp decline this year. As you stated, they have had multiple issues in the past, yet it never effected enrollment & funding to this level. They've had scandals going back to much farther than you even stated (as every school does). They've always been expensive, comes with being the biggest school in the state. Yet again, enrollment never had issues until the debacle last year.

    The fact the school was dumb enough to believe a professional protester was actually not eating (and would actually starve himself to death) is amazing. The 2nd fact that they caved to 10 people who either completely made up their stories (never was KKK on campus, never got hit with car) or have no proof to backup their stories or their stories had nothing to do with Mizzou is just crazy. They should have come out right away & stated they did their due diligence, made the calls they felt where correct & that's the end of the talk. Don't acknowledge the millionaire faking hunger strike & if the football team wants to forfeit a game that's fine, you get one freeby. Anyone not back on the practice field Monday has their scholarships revoked. Plus lets not praise these players, had they been having a good year they never would have done it, but they sucked so nothing really to lose.

    Enrollment is down because the school was dumb & cowardly and people don't like that. People don't get to run their bosses company. Kids don't run schools. Especially spoiled brats who make up lies and expect the world to just hand over everything to them because they deserve it. You deserve what you earn, which for those kids, should be a swift kick in the butt by their parents.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 8:42 AM
  • So the only facts of the case are the allegations? What could go wrong with basing an entire case simply off the word of disgruntled people?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 12:52 PM
  • Hating people simply because they are white is being racist CB. I don't believe the entire organization is racist by any stretch, but there are segments of it (the MU group for example) which clearly are. They hurt the cause, but when it's as large as it is you can't control all the messages so it just is what it is.

    You crack me up CB. Yes I'm well aware the article is not a court transcript. But it is a completely one sided article trying to show the police to be evil and the only proof they can write about in a case that is multiple years old is testimony of disgruntled people. My whole point was that it's a completely biased one sided reporting that jumps to conclusions with no facts. Pretty much the exact same thing you guys crush Fox News for the Huff Post also does just as much. But since it's from your perspective you some how feel the need to defend it without simply admitting that yes it is the Fox News of the left-wing.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 1:44 PM
  • I don't know if there is a word for hating specific groups. No the part of BLM that hates cops are not racist because cops aren't a race obviously. But hating a group simply because they are a group is still hating. Hating all cops just because of what a few cops have done is no different than hating gays, hating DMV employees, hating IRS people or any other group.

    Anyone who is preaching against hate should not then also hate. That makes you a hypocrite and makes your opinion hollow and self serving. Saying it's wrong for cops to stereotype & profile black americans while then stereotyping and profiling cops is being a hypocrite.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 1:51 PM
  • I may have posted links to Huff Post articles, but I would never declare them to be apolitical.

    I would challenge you to find a comment I have made using Huffpost as a factual basis.

    And, of course, "The Blaze" is completely unbiased and not politically aligned at all, eh?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 3:13 PM
  • Honestly don't know what The Blaze is, but coming from you I'm assuming it's GOP heavy news site.

    As long as we can all agree that Huff Post is biased pure hardcore left wing run news just as badly as Fox News is hardcore right wing run news than it's all good. Neither should be taken as much of actual news as much as it's propaganda.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 3:22 PM
  • BTW, Oldschool, after re-reading your post, is your position that white folks in Missouri are keeping their kids from attending MU solely in protest of the BLM protests?

    I believe that is what you meant by "the whole debacle over a bunch of cry babies making up stories is the only reason for the sharp decline this year."

    So, Missourians are keeping their little darlings home from college to make some kind of point about how the university handled those black people who raised some hell over perceived slights by the university?

    Is that it?

    If so, doesn't that sort of make the point that many Missourians are racist enough to not let their kids go to MU because of a perception that the University somehow caved in to a BLM protest?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 3:41 PM
  • You really have to keep up with current events, Oldschool.

    You really don't know about Glenn Beck and his "Blaze" empire?

    Becks schtick seems to be that he can work up tears, on camera, while claiming that liberals are ruining America.

    Very emotional. He's quite the actor. Sadly it shows.

    He's an offshoot of Fox News. Another Limbaugh wannabe who got miffed that he wasn't the star at Fox so started his own TV network, The Blaze. I'm sure his channel is somewhere on your cable TV.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 3:47 PM
  • I do know Beck, but last I paid any real attention to him he was at fox news. Didn't realize he'd branched out on his own.

    It's no so much that it was black cry babies as much as it was cry babies in general. Could have been any race & would have still been viewed very negatively that an entire university bowed down to a handful of cry babies. Now what did make this one worse on top of that was the erragance & out right stupidity of the cry babies. Again not necessarily that they were black, if any other race asked for the stupid things this group did while making up clear lies the school would have been seen just as cowardly & not preparing kids for the real world.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 4:50 PM
  • Please expand on that statement CB, this should be good.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 8:38 PM
  • Yes CB you are the only one. Most of us understand that life is more complicated than a kid getting a grade card. Im assuming it was probably cancelled for one reason or another, at which point what does it matter if there is a story or not? Just put the money away for the next time they have one.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 31, 2016, at 7:29 AM
  • I wonder if our Prosecutor was aware of the controversies surrounding Missouri's Felony Stealing laws before charging Saline Counties latest embezzler?

    Once again, Smart Dog's advice to all public entities, regular audits.

    You don't want to find these things out by accident. Makes those in charge kind of look like they aren't paying much attention.

    I think I could also make a case for those in charge being somewhat culpable when these things happen if they are not paying attention. If you are the leader, it's your job to make sure those under you are following the rules.

    So, has the council called for an audit of the City of Marshall yet, Oldschool?

    For example:

    I suggest particular attention to page 4, "Audits," paragraphs 4 & 5 of this:

    And, of course, in true Missouri fashion, if a city doesn't bother to even send a financial statement to the State Auditor, which is required by law, it's ok because there is no enforcement or penalty for not doing so, and the State Auditor doesn't have the budget or staff to catch anyone anyway.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Aug 31, 2016, at 1:25 PM
  • All those rules are done by your elected officials. Don't like it, work to change it. It's examples like these where I think it's hilarious that you guys think someday rich politicians would vote to give back any money & power.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Aug 31, 2016, at 2:30 PM
  • I do believe the City of Marshall is audited annually. Now, the question is, will the Move Marshall Forward people have the audit on the website? They indicated during the election that this was a relatively simple matter, so why isn't the website updated yet?

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Wed, Aug 31, 2016, at 3:08 PM
  • To be clear, there is a audit statement on-line, but not the entire audit.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Wed, Aug 31, 2016, at 3:13 PM
  • If you are referring to the "Audit Analysis" at this link, Interested, I'm not so sure that is what we are looking for.

    Please note that this was apparently prepared by the City Treasurer or City Manager, not a 3rd party auditor as I see no sign of who the auditor was, what company they work for, and no signatures signifying that someone is taking responsibility for the statements and figures within.

    Perhaps they copied from the actual audit in preparing this analysis, who would know?

    I would refer to the following statements from the document "Financial Management for Small Missouri Municipalities."


    "An independent audit is one performed by persons not affiliated with the organization being audited. Financial audits may be performed by certified public accountants, licensed public accountants and the state auditor.

    Audits normally cover a single fiscal year, though for the first audit performed in a city or village, it may be useful to audit the past two or three years.

    Because the audit is so important, it is especially critical that an auditor be selected who is highly competent and who has the necessary training and experience to conduct a professional audit.

    More important than this requirement is the need for the auditor to have considerable experience in governmental auditing and to understand the distinctions between governmental and commercial entities.

    Many communities feel that someone from the community should perform the audit. This desire, however, should not obscure the foremost consideration that the auditor be selected on the basis of professional competence and experience."


    I'm not saying that the City isn't being audited properly, just that the link on the website sort of suggests that there might have been an audit, or perhaps those financial statements were produced in house, how would anyone know.

    I will say there is some mighty confusing language in there, for example the next to the last paragraph.

    From that paragraph:

    "During the fiscal year, the City's total debt decreased by $330,193. The decrease was due to scheduled payments of bonds and leases, and debt did increase because there was a new capital lease issued in the amount of $67,831."

    So which is it? Did the cities debt increase or decrease?

    Also, no comma after "year" or after "leases".

    That's being kind of picky, I know. Just saying that educated professionals producing management overview analysis documents should be able to communicate effectively.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 1, 2016, at 7:54 AM
  • Now I have fallen into the rabbit hole. In looking at the minutes from the August 29th work session I see this one liner.

    "Council Member Ott discussed the Marshall Habilitation Center acquisition."

    I certainly hope there is more effort, consideration, and due dilligence being done with regard to the City of Marshall acquiring the Hab Center than what would be indicated by that one sentence in two pages of notes.

    So what is the status of that acquisition? Why are there no public statements or releases of information on what exactly the city and state responsibilities are in this transaction?

    Did anyone at the city do any kind of analysis, say something along the lines of costs of ownership, where the money comes from to pay those costs, what are the state and city liabilities, potential hidden liabilities, or other considerations before jumping off the cliff?

    I do understand that the Marshall Public Schools administrators have made themselves right at home in the Tudor Mansion. Who's paying their utility bills? How much rent is the city collecting from MPS? Who's liable if something goes bad? Who insures the buildings?

    I get the impression that, as no one is talking much about this deal between the state, city, and MPS, that no due diligence has been done what-so-ever.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 1, 2016, at 8:07 AM

    So what is that mysterious tax levy amount? Doesn't appear anywhere in a synopsis of the public hearing on the matter.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 1, 2016, at 8:10 AM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    The mayor stated at that hearing that the amount is determined by the state. The city's proposed levy, as reported, was $1.1519 per $100 of assessed valuation. However, that's just the figure they're working with in preparing the 2016-2017 budget until the state sets the official amount.
  • Smart Dog,

    The last time the Hab Center was truly discussed was in March, when the Mayor called a special meeting to railroad it through.,%202016.Minutes.pdf

    You will notice that there were a lot of unanswered questions and that the MMF group was vocal as well.

    Mr. Hagedorn never did place a proper motion, and also Dan Brandt said that enough time had been spent talking about it. Then there was discussion that as Connie had to go on a vacation, that the city ought to vote that night.

    I guess people forgot who works for who. The council does not work for the city administrator or the Mayor. The Mayor is secondary to the council. The city administrator works for the council. For all of the consternation shown, and the fact that people had been working on this for 18 months, the Mayor and the administrator could not answer any simple questions about the MHC matter. They went ahead and voted on it to ensure that the MPS got their buildings. Now, the city has a huge financial risk and will probably be bailed out by some land developers with only their own interests at stake.

    Even then, Dan Brandt was following Ron Ott's lead, as the minutes show.

    Nothing different now. The new council has no concrete answers for costs or upkeep and very little idea of who will eventually own that land (or do they?). Time will tell.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Thu, Sep 1, 2016, at 5:38 PM
  • Good to know. Thanks, Interested.

    Seems as if the City Administration might have employed the jump off the cliff and build the wings on the way down plan.

    FYI I only drink coffee on weekends. It would make it hard to sleep through my job otherwise.

    Just kidding, boss.

    Y'all know I was thinking this morning that Donald Trump is orange like a gold fish, and all the glue he must use to keep his hair on surely has caused some injury by now...

    I knew I could find a use for "goldfish with a head injury"."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 2, 2016, at 8:46 AM
  • The city has finally 'officially' called in the Highway Patrol to investigate the incident with the two officers at Walmart, and are seeking an outside consultant to review procedures, policies, etc. at the police department. But don't forget the ethnic harassment lawsuit (of an Hispanic officer) from a few years ago which cost the city around $40,000 (insurance paid the rest of the settlement) plus the cost of bringing in someone to train ALL city employees in ethnic sensitivity, plus the early 'retirement' of a high ranking police officer. I have also heard allegations of racial comments from the chief and other officers. Prior to that issue was another settled lawsuit involving improper detainment of a family by officers. It sounds to me like there needs to be a cleansing of the Marshall police department, starting with the top.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Fri, Sep 2, 2016, at 9:06 AM
  • You really have an obsession with cops CB, what exactly have cops personally done to you to make you hate them so much? I mean nobody has this much anger towards someone if it's not personal. First what the MDN had was not a story, so no they don't need a retraction. By law the MPD has to advertise checkpoints, which by law the MDN has to post.

    If the MPD doesn't give the MDN the results that is not the fault of the MDN. I'd think you'd be happy if it was cancelled. I'd be happy if they had it but hadn't busted anyone because that would mean people where following the law the way they are supposed too. I'm sure they'll release something eventually, however if they don't that's fine too. Lets be honest here, you are not entitled to anything.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 8:18 AM
  • Confirmation from the department is that the checkpoint was not cancelled, but postponed until a later date that has yet to be determined. The checkpoints are funded through Dept. of Transportation grants for a set number of checkpoints per year. So, the department isn't getting any extra funding from that checkpoint not occurring at this time.

    -- Posted by ahustead on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 11:33 AM
  • Perfect update, thanks Ahusted.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 11:39 AM
  • But you aren't a cop CB. You just like to play one in your head while complaining about how they do their job. You could become a cop though, work from the inside. You know bust all those cops you say are dirty. Make a real difference in the world and actually put some action behind those words.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 1:22 PM
  • Coldbeerbear:

    You've convinced me! I mean, you obviously think that repeating things ad nauseam will convince people, so I am going to tell you that you have convinced me. Now, can we move on to something else? If not, I stand to be unconvinced by someone else who posts endlessly, saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over.....

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 4:34 PM
  • Those are horrible examples CB as you are not eligible to join thise groups and they are not jobs. Please work harder on your excuses for why you are all talk with no action. Or just admit that you just like to whine & cry.

    Have you filed any harassment or other complaints with the MPD? If they truly harrass you (which I believe you) than you would have a good case. Or is that another thing you just complain about online hoping someone else will solve your problem for you since you are to lazy to do that yourself?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 6, 2016, at 7:38 PM
  • Sounds good CB, don't attempt to fix the problem just complain about it. That seems to be how a lot of people these days think. Complain about something enough maybe someone else will fix your problem for you.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 7, 2016, at 7:05 AM
  • -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 7, 2016, at 8:20 AM
  • Or maybe like the vast majority of deaths of black men he was killed by another black man. In which case your post is completely baseless.

    But we'll see how the case turns out. Even still CB, how do you think things would change if everyone had your poor attitude towards bringing about change? I mean if everyone sat back & hoped someone else would do their job for them then who would be left to actually get something done?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 7, 2016, at 11:04 AM
  • So with no evidence you are saying that police officers murdered both Mr. Joshua & Mr. Seals?

    "The cops already got Deandre Joshua and they just recently got Darren Seals" - CB

    I have given you every opportunity to say what you've done outside of the MDN and you have always returned with nothing. Please if you do other activities outside of whining I'd love to hear them and give you credit and apologize for being wrong.

    However, I can only base my opinion off the facts that I know to be true (I know it's an odd concept to you but hear me out). I say you don't do anything besides complain. You hate & complain about cops. Yet by your own admission the facts we have are as follows: you refuse to file complaints or charges against the police you say harrasse you. You refuse to join the police force in order to arrest the cops you say are bad. You don't want to become a lawyer in order to prosecute dirty cops. You don't want to be a politician to pass harsher laws against dirty cops. The only thing you've admitted to doing outside of this website is being belligerent to officers when you get pulled over including telling them to give you oral sex & then telling them to go have sex with their mother. I mean, I can't understand why anyone would want to make your life miserable after being told things like that.

    So outside of this website, the only evidence that you've given us of your work in fixing the problem you so strongly complain about is that you purposefully make it worse by antagonizing the officers? If I missed anything please anyone feel free to correct me.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 7, 2016, at 1:34 PM
  • Of course not CB. But you made positive claim that you do something outside if the MdN to assist in fixing the issue that you complain about on here daily. I simply showed the evidence that we have at our disposal proves that claim to be false. Now if you are sticking with the religious argument of "im right because I said so" than so be it. But judging how much you have told RR in the past that is not a valid argument for a belief in God, I find it hypocritical to then expect anyone to take it seriously in your case.

    Now im plenty open to new evidence & will freely admit being wrong if new evidence contradicts the evidence we already have.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 7, 2016, at 3:35 PM
  • CB is about as predictable as the sun rise. He is so hypocritical that it really is quiet humorous that he takes any stances anymore. Everything he says he hates he turns right around and does himself. Truly is fascinating to watch someone who seems to be so intelligent just ignore that same intelligence.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 8, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • You claim to not like stereotyping of black people. Yet you have no problem stereotyping all police officers. You mock Fox News for being one sided & being a GOP machine while using almost exclusively Huff Post articles which is nothing but a one sided machine for the Dems. You crush RR for his religious beliefs because he has no evidence to support his claim. Yet when we ask for evidence to support you claim you say you don't need to provide any. You say black people are innocent until proven guilty, yet you already are saying cops murdered those two BLM activist with no proof. You even deny proof when it goes against black people like Michael Brown. Yet you want everyone else to give the people you like the benefit of the doubt. You say you dislike when people give you odd looks or treat you differently just because of the way you look, yet multiple times you have told people to do the same things if they see a police officer just because they are in uniform.

    Merriam-Webster definition of Hypocrite - a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs about what is right but who behaves in a way that disagrees with those beliefs.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 8, 2016, at 1:45 PM
  • Hey, D-N, how about an article on the new lumber yard which is reportedly going into the old Wal-mart building. Does anyone know anything about it? Far be it for the D-N to report on such an important addition to the community.

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Thu, Sep 8, 2016, at 8:17 PM
  • Perhaps we are a disagreeing what qualifies as an example. Please advise what would like in terms of an example & I'll provide it. I thought I was pretty specific but I'm happy to work with your definition of what you are asking for.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 8, 2016, at 10:28 PM
  • "Support your point. Cite the facts upon which you're basing argument by copying and pasting quotes or posts along with date and time so other people can look at your research and see if your thesis makes any sense." CB 9/8/16

    "I have no doubt in my mind that a) the police were involved in both homicides and b) the police will conduct something they call an "investigation" and find themselves completely innocent. And c) they will frame and railroad a person of color who is likely to be a Muslim or have some loose connection to a Muslim activist group by manipulating, planting, hiding or destroying evidence." CB 9/7/16

    Being a hypocrite is asking someone to provide something that you yourself never provide. I only had to go back a couple days to prove my point. I could spend hour going back to reading every post on these things but that's not free time I have so feel free to look yourself for the rest of the obvious proof. I remember a quote about comparing police to rattlesnakes that ALL cops are animals & need a wide birth.

    Of course a lot of your old post are gone since you changed your name from BFG to CB.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Sep 9, 2016, at 8:52 AM
  • Well at least you stand by your hate filled hypocritical ways. We'll just all remember this for future discussions. Nope, has been no new developments in the Wally case.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Sep 9, 2016, at 5:52 PM
  • CBB...what do you mean? Your an admitted felon....I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN WHEN YOU POSTED AS "BIGFATGUYRETURNS"...You hypocrite with your double standards!!! All the good Wally did far outweighs any bad he has done. In my mind and probably most others he paid the money back and his walk of shame is punishment enough!! Now get over yourself, no one cares that an admitted felon (YOU!!) hates the law!

    -- Posted by DAgates on Fri, Sep 9, 2016, at 6:36 PM
  • We all know you are BfG guy CB. He disappeared for one week then u show up with literally the exact same opinions, discussions and speech patterns. It's ok, we all liked you as BfG, not sure if u got kicked out or just felt like a change but I'm just glad your around. Would be a boring debate room without you!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Sep 9, 2016, at 11:41 PM
  • So according to your article it's considered common practice to throw away a pot stash, has anyone here ever done that, has anyone ever even seen a pot stash? Getting lost on a motorcycle in a state park is something that happens "regularly"? Some, like the sick day rule, aren't even still written the same way anymore. How many of us here are journalist? Anyone even think about creating a website period, let alone for a religious charity?

    How are these "8 ways we REGULARLY commit Felonies"? That is taking the term "Regularly" to a very loose level.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Sep 13, 2016, at 2:26 PM
  • Ha-ha, good call with the last one CB because you hadn't gotten me until then.

    Course there is a pretty large difference between "felon" for singing happy birthday (find evidence of that one i'll be impressed) and felon who robbed a family at gun point. Or someone selling meth.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Sep 14, 2016, at 1:57 PM
  • Would like to point out despite all those ways to become a felon, I have never been convicted of anything other than a speeding a couple speeding tickets (which I paid). So I am not a felon, even with all those ways to be one :). Guess I'm doing something right haha.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • Well if you admitted to committing a felony that you are a felon. Now say why your a felon and then it can be decided if you are to be taken as stupid accident (left a cup at a camp ground) or real felon (armed robbery). Simply a personal opinion based off post & hatred of cops, I'm guessing real felon.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 11:44 AM
  • I actually wasn't talking about you CB, I was taking about BFG. He said he was a convicted felon so if you say you aren't him than you're clean.

    Now I'd say if I was you I'd knock off the pot smoking but I'm not much a risk taker so that's just my personal opinion. A small little high isn't worth risking jail, money & my job. Again, just my opinion on that part.

    That coin deal in school was pretty cool science wasn't it? I mean not as cool as mentos & diet coke, but still was pretty cool what you could do with just a couple chemicals.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 1:10 PM
  • Yep 100% sure.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 1:55 PM
  • Welp lucky I was able to read all of them before he left us & his comments where removed. And if you had been able to read (like I was), you'd have seen where he said "use to be in the educational system". So clearly his felony either took him away from teaching or he had quit teaching before the felony occurred.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 2:44 PM
  • Interesting picture for the story about "Constitution" week. I find it telling that it has our preacher / mayor standing in front of the council chambers. See that " In god we trust"? He took it upon himself immediately after taking office to have that put up. There was no input from the council and citizens weren't allowed to weigh in. He just did it on his own. Why? Because he thinks that as a mayor and preacher he has the right to inject his religious ideology into our government proceedings. I spoke with a councilman about this when it happened. He said it just "appeared" but if any of them would have offered any objection they would probably reap the wrath of the unstable and fairy tale believing religious electorate. Religion and government cannot exist in the same plane. True governance requires compromise and religion is not equipped to handle that. And BTW, the letters are too large for the space and appear to be "stuffed" in there. But then again, I guess they were. The problem with church is that no one can keep it there.

    -- Posted by What the f...... on Thu, Sep 15, 2016, at 8:52 PM
  • Perhaps it's '"In God We Trust" to balance our budget because we can't seem to make that happen on our own.'

    Or '"In God We Trust" to keep us from getting entangled in something that will cost our taxpayers money out there at the Hab Center because we haven't done any analysis before jumping off the cliff.'

    It is rather ironic that they took the Constitution Week picture with that as a background, which I will assume was no accident, in light of the fact that there is no mention of God in the United States Constitution anywhere at all.

    The only thing even close is the First Amendment which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

    Thomas Jefferson clarified that in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 with the following statement:

    "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

    Of course, Jefferson was paraphrasing the founder of the American Baptist Church, Roger Williams who in 1644 wrote of "a hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world" in making his point.

    Then, of course, there's Article VI, Clause 3, of the Constitution where it is written " religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    Sadly, the right-wing has obfuscated this issue and, in my view, done a major disservice to the believers in America by 1) convincing them that a vote for a Republican is a vote for their beliefs, and 2) convincing them that somehow Christianity is wrapped up in the American flag and present in our constitution. It is not.

    I do not begrudge anyone their personal deeply held beliefs. I just wish politicians, like our mayor, would keep it out of politics as it only serves to deceive voters in the process of selecting their representatives.

    We regularly elect some despicable individuals to serve in our country with no more qualification for the job than a declaration of Christian Faith and an A Rating from the NRA.

    But what really scares me is the folks I know who realize that's all the substance there is to many of our politicians, but they think that's a good thing.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 16, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • I know we don't see eye to eye very often SD & CB, but we 100% agree on this religion screw up. I frankly think all religions should be abolished. But for sure they should not be anywhere near a government building.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Sep 16, 2016, at 1:27 PM
  • Don't worry fellas, word on the street is that the word 'God' is being removed and replaced with OTT.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Sep 16, 2016, at 3:25 PM
  • CB: Unfortunately, despite your protestations to the contrary; that's exactly what the mayor did.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Sep 18, 2016, at 9:13 PM
  • 1) "In God We Trust" is the national motto

    2) When its use was challenged on the U.S. currency in Aronow v. United States, the finding was thus "Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

    3) It is inscribed in the U.S. House of Representatives behind the speaker's rostrum and above the main door to the U.S. Senate. It also appears on the Washington Monument.

    4) If it offends you so much, you could petition to have it taken down.

    -- Posted by ahustead on Mon, Sep 19, 2016, at 2:45 PM
  • The statement does not offend me, but I think the point here was that it was done unilaterally and there was concern as to how people might feel if another religion's motto was in city hall. That's the way I read most of the conversation.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Sep 19, 2016, at 3:50 PM
  • Except "In God We Trust" isn't the official motto of Christianity. It's the motto of the United States. Like the pledge of allegiance "one nation indivisible under God," the courts have found the repetition of the phrases to have eliminated all religious context to them. Whether agreed with or not, that is the courts' stance.

    You say the decision to place the words above the council chamber was unilaterally made, but a councilman could always call for a vote on it. All it takes is a motion and a second to put it to a vote. Failure to do so out of fear of the electorate doesn't mean they didn't or still don't have the opportunity to do so.

    I'm not saying taking the action to place it there without prior input from the council or the community was right, but it could have been addressed by the council when it happened or at any time since. In that case, inaction from the council would equal approval in my view.

    -- Posted by ahustead on Mon, Sep 19, 2016, at 4:32 PM
  • C'mon, you guys. It's good to cling to half-century old relics of the Cold War McCarthy Era.

    White Supremacy was big in 1950's America. Additionally, that is when the "Stars an Bars" (Confederate Battle Flag) was adopted by the KKK.

    Who doesn't love the 50's. Whites only bathrooms and restaurants. Segregated schools. Literacy and economic tests for voters. Blacklists for your enemies (oops, I meant "communist sympathizers). The John Birch Society. The Minutemen.

    Ahhh, yes, the good old days when we stuck "God" in the pledge, on our money, and created a "National Motto" because God said segregation was his way and those dirty evil commies were all atheists.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Sep 20, 2016, at 12:34 PM
  • On another entirely different topic.

    So it does appear that it is possible for the City of Marshall to solicit resume's, interview candidates, and select an actual experienced and qualified city manager.

    Way to go Council. Thanks for the effort put in by those who made this happen.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Sep 20, 2016, at 12:38 PM
  • And finally....

    I have to post a link to this.

    As a gun owning Democrat and not a fan of Blunt, I find this to be an awesome ad.

    Atta boy, Kander.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Sep 20, 2016, at 12:42 PM
  • It should read "In god most of us trust". Maybe a Hillary-enhanced SCOTUS can rid us of this egregious violation of separation of church and state.

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Tue, Sep 20, 2016, at 1:41 PM
  • Smartdog" I agree with you! That SOB Blunt has been sucking the state,& the People dry long enough! Also his Family!

    -- Posted by Jo on Tue, Sep 20, 2016, at 3:15 PM
  • Well, as I have pretty much no respect for LaPierre's NRA, I reckon an F rating might be a good thing.

    I think you missed the bigger point that Blunt is a pseudo-christian, Vietnam draft dodger, who fooled around on his first wife with a DC lobbyist and doesn't even live in Missouri anymore.

    Yet old Roy has all you right-wing nut-jobs convinced he is a pious, millitary oriented, family values guy while maintaining a condo in Springfield so he can claim to be a Missouri resident.

    Roy, like most Republicans, only supports gun rights because it buys him votes from one issue voters.

    Where Kander actually served in the military and actually lives in Missouri.

    BTW, I own an M4 so am familiar enough with breakdown and reassembly.

    So, I guess all you saw in my post was somebody who thought it cool that a vet could reassemble an M16 blindfolded and completely missed that the cool aspect is that Kander is actually a vet and most likely learned to do that in basic training, while Blunt is a career politician, never served in the military, and has not even lived in the state he represents since about 2002 after his wife kicked him out because he was having an affair with a tobacco lobbyist.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Sep 21, 2016, at 1:22 PM
  • So while I am here, any of you Pachyderms out there attend Dohrman's talk on veto over-rides? I am quite curious to know how he justified SB 844, which modifies laws related to animal trespass.

    I am not a lawyer, but this bill adds significant problems for the victim of damage from livestock. It requires the injured party to prove negligence in court, thereby making the injured party jump through hoops that currently do not exist.

    Why would you think the owner of an animal is not liable for damage done by that animal? If my dog escapes his pen and kills someone, am I now only responsible if the family of the injured party can prove I am negligent?

    And what is the standard of proof of that because the legislation doesn't include any definitions.

    If my neighbor's cattle get out and tromp down my corn field, is he not liable for damage caused without hiring a lawyer and filing a lawsuit?

    If a cow lets herself out of an overgrazed pasture and gets hit by a car, I guess the auto owner now must retain legal counsel and file suit. Was the goal of the legislation to make more work for our already overcrowded courtrooms?

    To me it seems this bill will just cause more arguments and create business for lawyers as now the damaged party will have to sue in civil court and prove that the owner of the animal was negligent.

    So the victim now has to hire a lawyer for something that used to be cut and dried.

    I suggest anyone interested should read Nixon's veto letter posted here. I would add that as Governor Nixon is an attorney, he would be a good judge of the effects of this legislation.

    I am just wondering if anyone at that meeting felt that Dohrman really knew what he was voting for on that one.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Sep 21, 2016, at 1:47 PM
  • So what exactly is it that Kander has lied about?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Sep 21, 2016, at 4:05 PM
  • So you have no examples about Kander other than that Blunt tv ad, funded from out of state, that says he did, eh?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 7:41 AM
  • So that guy in Tulsa that had no gun and got shot by a cop for being a big black dude, what was he supposed to drop?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 7:44 AM

    So how abut we all look at this report honestly just from the officer's statement? First, this was not a guy asking for help the way people who weren't there say. They received a call of a man with a car saying it would blow up. The car was still running, so clearly it wasn't a dead car in the middle of the road the way I've heard. So no, he wasn't some guy just asking for help.

    She says he doesn't comply with commands & doesn't talk to her & acts oddly. The video clearly shows he wasn't following commands so that's not hard to believe. While that didn't deserve to get him shot, again lets learn from this & help yourself by lower your risk & just doing what they say when they are point a gun at you!

    Now the part that I find hard is when she says he reaches into the window. For one, I didn't see that in the video. For two, she says earlier she looked into the car to see if anyone else was in there. So if she looked into the car, wouldn't she have seen a weapon or anything in there? So even if he did reach in would she not have known what was there or not? Yes he did reach into his waste on the video, but again by her statement he'd done that twice already, if he had a gun & was going to kill her he'd have done it already would be my first assumption.

    Again we don't have 100% of the facts yet, but with the video & her statement I believe she should be charged with manslaughter & fired (well obviously fired). I don't think she's a racist who just wanted to kill someone. I think she honestly had a man twice her size (black or not),acting weird, she'd heard a warning of things blowing up and I think she panicked. Which panicking is not an excuse for killing someone. It means it's not cold blooded murder, but still there was no fear for her safety other than sheer panic over a situation she knew better in. Again she looked into the car so I like to think a cop is good at making a quick scan for weapons & he'd done the waste band gig already with nothing.

    Now again, we don't have 100% of the facts so I'm not saying I know she's guilty & should be thrown in jail today. Thing people don't take into account is once a cops been arrested that's it, they are fired. So if evidence comes out later & they are innocent it's too late & her life takes a large hit. So I have no issue with waiting a little while to be sure. But just from what we've seen & heard from her so far, I would say a charge of manslaughter is warranted, IMO.

    I think the other cop did the right thing with the tazer. He's not compliant, he's not a regular Joe asking for help w/car trouble, and it appears he's on drugs. So neutralize the situation with a tazer shot, cuff him then see what's going on in the car & clear it so you can get it off the road. Then get the guy in the tank to sleep it off & take it from there in the morning.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 8:28 AM
  • Valid assesment, Oldschool, but there were four cops present. The shooting was a gross over-reaction in my opinion.

    Did they really even need the taser?

    The guy may well have been on dope, but he didn't seem violent in the little bits of video I have seen. I'd like to think that four grown adult police officers with training could subdue one "big black dude" without having to risk taking his life.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 8:59 AM
  • I have to post a link to this article, written by David Dunning himself, as it touches on several things I have raved on about in the Speak Out blogs for a while now, such as the "Dunning-Kruger Effect," Trump supporters, and Common Core.

    A combination of topics are presented that describe how so many misconceptions and falsehoods can cloud the judgment of 21st Century American voters.

    A combination of ego and lack of real knowledge explains many of the circular arguments that seem to permeate today's political discourse.

    I especially like how, as of the writing of this article, Politifact had found only 9% of Trump's claims and statements as "True or Mostly True" yet right-wing nut-job conspiracy theorists everywhere still think he's the man.

    I also liked the summation of the gross misunderstanding of Common Core that has been sold by right-wing nut-job politicians to their constituents.

    Why not establish standard practices for teaching and evaluating the effectiveness of Math and English education? Oh, yeah, because "the gubmint gots no bidness messin' wit my edjumicashun."

    Right, fire?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 9:16 AM
  • I think tazer is actually safer for all parties SD. I mean tazing hurts like hell for a minutes I'm sure, but once it's done it's done. If four guys try to take down one large man (again black or not guy was large man) and he fights back your risking injury to everyone involved including the large man. No the safest thing for everyone is a couple second tazer & cuff & it's over in 15 seconds.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 10:06 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 12:41 PM

    Speaking of Dunning-Kruger, y'all have probably seen this old girl by now but thought I would post a link in case you haven't.

    I think what she was thinking was "Black people knew their place in America before Obama was elected."


    A friend and I were discussing the resurgence of racism in America since Obama and came to the conclusion that his election seems to have lured the white supremacists out into the open, with the encouragement of the right-wing media.

    Thanks, Obama.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 12:56 PM
  • Tasers can be lethal, but that is extremely rare. Take downs can be lethal as well. Nothing is 100% safe, but in terms of minimizing the risk, tazer does that. The risk of injury is down to 1 person instead of 5 (in this example) and the risk to that 1 person is extremely minimal as well. Where as combat puts 5 people at risk & the risk of injury is much greater when you get all those bodies thrashing around. I'm just simply talking minimizing the risk.

    Well everyone cooperating with each other & being nice does make it 100% safe. I mean if guy cooperates fully & then officers calmy cuff & don't like throw to the ground, then that combo is the best idea.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 12:56 PM
  • I recall that you are a big old sports fan, Oldschool, so check out where this kid's dad played his college football.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 3:41 PM
  • That's pretty cool SD. Always like seeing local connections in national stories.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 4:03 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Sep 22, 2016, at 10:28 PM
  • "It is more likely than not that Tyre King was in the process of running away from the shooter or shooters when he suffered all three gunshot wounds."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 23, 2016, at 7:58 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 23, 2016, at 8:00 AM
  • D-N, how about some stories about positives around town? How about an article about the new lumber yard that's coming to town? How about an article about Patty's Hav-a-Snak reopening at a new location and all the new jobs they have created?

    -- Posted by cmasretire on Fri, Sep 23, 2016, at 12:34 PM
  • Making the trainer and the school nurse a scapegoat for this error in judgement is a travesty. Someone with authority gave permission, they should be facing the same, if not worse consequences. How do announcements get made over the PA throughout the day and not one principal is none the wiser of what's happening? C'mon now, really?

    -- Posted by huh? on Fri, Sep 23, 2016, at 3:17 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Sep 24, 2016, at 11:01 PM
  • Wanna listen to something funny?

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Sep 24, 2016, at 11:07 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Sep 24, 2016, at 11:47 PM
  • So I am still waiting to hear from someone regarding the status of ConAgra's property tax abatement with the city and whether they (ConAgra) actually held up their end of the bargain with increased employment.

    My understanding is that they did not ever meet their stated employment goal, but that the City did not get a written agreement with them. If this is not true, then I sure wish somebody would speak up.

    If there is a written agreement, I will go ahead and assume that it was written by ConAgra and signed by a representative of the city. Was any due diligence, such as an estimated cost to the city taxpayers, or review by the cities attorney completed?

    So, in light of the latest layoffs at ConAgra, how is the city going to handle the tax abatement? Does anyone in city government even have any idea what is required of ConAgra to maintain the abatement?

    I agree that ConAgra is a great asset to Marshall, but so are a whole bunch of other people and businesses that are great assets and still pay their property taxes.

    We certainly don't hear much out of city government regarding that deal, which was made with no public input as I recall. And, yes, it cost taxpayers who had to vote in an increased sales tax last year to make up for the city's budget deficits.

    I reckon that one is in the same "information free" category as the lack of public disclosure regarding the city's deal with the state for the Hab Center property. Anybody looked into the cost to the city taxpayers of owning an abandoned state institution yet? Any shared liability with the state for undiscovered problems or hazards? Any consideration of public input before proceeding?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Sep 26, 2016, at 2:11 PM
  • What about the salary of the new city administrator? It was such an important news item when the former administrator was hired, I think there should be some information given to the taxpayers in Marshall.

    -- Posted by intrigued on Tue, Sep 27, 2016, at 10:27 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Sep 27, 2016, at 6:23 PM
  • Nicolas Corona-Garcia, 37, was arrested at his place of employment in rural Marshall, by MPD and the county sheriff's department respectively. Both were arrested for Endangering the Welfare of a Child, and Corona-Garcia was also arrested for Violation of U.S. Immigration Laws. He was later released to deportation officers, according to the release.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Sep 27, 2016, at 6:25 PM

    Looks to me like white folks account for 70% of arrests in the US.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Sep 28, 2016, at 3:51 PM
  • I appreciate Fire for making me the nice villain of this group ha-ha.

    I will admit I'm not very educated on stop & frisk, does this just say a cop can frisk you for any reason at anytime? Or does it just say if a cop pulls you over they have the right to frisk you even if it was just a speeding ticket? FYI, I've been frisked on 3 separate occasions outside of airport & stadium where I've been dozens of times. 2 of those 3 where speeding tickets, 1 was cop hoped I was drunk after concert but unfortunate for him he guessed wrong cause I was part of only 5% of it that was sober lol.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 8:28 AM
  • Stop and Frisk is a policy, not a law, so I am not sure how Fire can make the statement "stop and frisk says it has to have a accountable reason to stop you."

    I guess that comes from Terry v. Ohio back in 1968 where Chief Justice Warren wrote "And in justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion."

    The following article has some good information on what it does and does not do for a community. The reason for the recent judicial rulings against it are simply because the government can't show any quantifiable benefit and the statistics show that blacks and hispanics are disproportionately stopped.

    The telling statistic to me is down toward the bottom of the article where you learn that although about 4 times as many blacks and hispanics are stopped and searched, the rate of arrest for an actual crime are 1 out of 143 stops for blacks, 1 out of 99 stops for hispanics, but 1 out of 27 for whites.

    So, if whites that are stopped and frisked are 6 times more likely to be carrying something illegal, why do we stop and frisk black people 4 times more often. Data shows that 3.7% of white folks are apparently carrying illegal stuff, but only 0.7% of black folks are.

    So, it isn't very hard to prove racial bias by police in New York by a review of the stats.

    And the thinking that it reduces crime is merely anecdotal. It has not been proven mathematically that it works.

    What it does do is give police the feeling that they can harass anyone for anything at any time.

    Sorry, I like law and order as much as the next guy, but I sure don't think we need to give police carte blanche to poke citizens in the eye to see if they can solicit a response they don't like and haul whoever they want off to jail.

    That's not freedom.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 11:32 AM
  • Hey, there are no villains here, Oldschool. Just a bunch of people with opinions.

    I respect others opinions, no matter how wrong they are dadgummit.

    (That was sarcasm, sadly I have learned that one has to point out cynicism and sarcasm on this blog. Well I guess not just this blog, as everybody everywhere these days seems to be itching for a fight about everything. Thank you politicians and media companies for creating this culture in America.)

    Wait, I forgot, it must be Obama's fault.

    Wait again, I guess it's Hillary's fault because I hear that she's actually been running the country all her adult life, right? So everything is her fault I guess.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 11:38 AM
  • I would like to challenge y'all to read this book review and tell me who it sounds like the author is talking about.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 1:40 PM
  • I personally could go either way on Stop & Frisk after reading the info. As I stated I've been frisked on multiple occasions, didn't bother me a bit cause I'm not carrying anything I shouldn't be. It makes sense that it doesn't really do anything to stop crime, I mean if you are pulling over someone for a crime, how would then frisking stop crime? So I can see where it's kind of pointless, so if just want to save frisking for when someone is actually arrested than I'm fine with that too. Either way is fine for me.

    I did appreciate the guy in the NY article talking about how studies aren't specific enough to draw appropriate conclusions. Course neither study did that, but at least it was pointed out so now I'm not the only one who says that!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 3:01 PM
  • Well last time I went to the eye doctor I still had 20/20 vision & don't require corrective lenses or anything. So yeah, I can see. Not sure what point was there CB?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 4:03 PM
  • To put Chief Justice Warren's commentary into context, and to understand the judicial systems view on frisking suspects back in 1968, it was felt that for the safety of police officers, they should be able to "lightly pat down on, on the outside of their garments" in order to make sure that whoever they are talking with doesn't have any weapons.

    You'll note there is nothing in there about cavity searches, drug sniffing dogs, or sobriety check points.

    The intent was to improve officer safety. It was never intended to be used for fishing expeditions to see if law enforcement couldn't find something to arrest somebody they don't like, or simply someone they want off the street.

    Then there is that characteristic of 21st century law enforcement I really don't like, simply busting people for the sake of revenue generation, which is quite common everywhere now apparently.

    Doing that violates a couple of Articles of our Constitution.

    It was Right-Wing Nut-Job Rudy Giuliani that brought us "Stop and Frisk" as a way to encourage New York Police to keep their thumbs pressing down on what Rudy considered "thugs and degenerates."

    Problem is, who gets to decide who the "thugs" and "degenerates" are?

    I mean, if I get to be the one who picks who the police are stopping and frisking, then by all means, it's a great idea.

    Heck, I'd even be good with Oldschool making the call.

    But unfortunately the courts can't assure that a reasonable, moderate person will be the one deciding on that, so I reckon it's best for the courts to keep it away from everybody.

    Especially politicians like Rudy.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • I was to young to know Rudy in 01'. He seemed pretty smart & on it in my youth. Maybe 01' Rudy was fine, I'll leave that to those old enough to know.

    But think even my kid knows 16' Rudy shouldn't be the judge of anything lol. Hes nuts!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Sep 29, 2016, at 8:42 PM
  • Since we're all probably tired of bad news and snark, I figured I'd post a link to a story about what happens when a good cop meets a responsible young black man.

    So for everybody that thinks all cops are bad news, or that all young black men are thugs, I reckon there's at least one of each that are trying hard to do the right thing.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Sep 30, 2016, at 1:38 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Oct 1, 2016, at 9:12 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Oct 1, 2016, at 9:20 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sat, Oct 1, 2016, at 11:55 PM
  • For a brief, but scary, look into the mind of fervent Trump supporters I offer the following article.

    Now if that doesn't scare you regarding where the Republican "base" is at, and headed more and more in that direction, then you must be somewhat blind.

    Also, I figured Fire might get some new links to some new conspiracy theory websites from this certified crazy woman.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Oct 2, 2016, at 8:25 AM
  • I thought the most interesting part of the debate was Hillary Clinton asking if maybe Trump didn't pay any taxes and Trump commenting "That would make me smart."

    That brings up two questions for me:

    1. Do the American people really want as their leader somebody who sees no reason that a billionaire should pay taxes, when the rest of us do?

    2. When running for President - and claiming we should elect him partly because he's really rich and therefore successful - how smart would it make him to pay no taxes and admit it? That looks pretty stupid to me.

    Most of us hate paying taxes, but accept the basic principle that there are things we, as a group, want to spend money for & so we have to collect it somehow.

    So Trump thinks it's smart for him to avoid paying his share? That makes me kind of mad - and I wonder if it doesn't do the same to a lot of other people. And wasn't admitting it a pretty bone-headed move on Trump's part? Which is just another reason to reject him.

    If I were Hillary, I'd make an ad out of that.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Oct 2, 2016, at 11:21 AM
  • Well said, Have.

    I reckon the crazy thing is how it appears that the more stupid things Trump says and does, the more it seems to be helping him.

    Reminds me way too much of "The Campaign" and "Idiocracy."

    Two highly respected and intellectual documentaries about American Politics and Culture.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Oct 2, 2016, at 11:44 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Oct 3, 2016, at 7:34 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Oct 3, 2016, at 7:40 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Oct 3, 2016, at 7:49 PM
  • I guess I should start posting links to all the "Republicans looking like idiots on camera" websites, eh Porky?

    Is that what you are looking for?

    Wait, all one has to do is watch the nightly news or any late night talk show for that.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 4, 2016, at 7:56 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 4, 2016, at 8:25 AM
  • EI,

    When you say "Really?", do you mean that as a reaction to the idea that Hillary is supporting Sharia law, or the ill-informed replies Mark Dice gets when he says that she is?

    I mean, the people Dice talks to are obviously out of touch with facts - but it seems like he is too, so I'm not really sure where he's going with this.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Oct 4, 2016, at 11:44 AM
  • By the way, great clips, SD. I especially enjoyed John Oliver. And, of course, you're right, CBB. There are certainly a lot of people out there who seem to know nothing at all.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Oct 4, 2016, at 12:36 PM
  • I think most people know Trump would be a horrible President. But how insane is it that the best option the Democrats had to throw at him is Hillary? The fact that the Dem candidate isn't winning poles 90/10 is just proof that both parties need to be completely destroyed & started over. Both parties are complete garbage who only care about their extreme values over the common good of everyone.

    Vote Morgan Freeman!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 11:01 AM
  • Nope she's just as crazy extreme as the rest of them. Has that same all or nothing mentality that solves anything.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 12:45 PM
  • Plus she has an arrest warrant out for her right now for being an idiot in North Dakota.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 12:48 PM
  • Think it's bad now? Just wait until 2020 when your choices will be Kanye West or Sean Hannity.

    Wait, Wait....

    Madonna or Scott Baio?

    Odell Beckham Jr. or Stacy Dash?

    Sadly, Morgan Freeman vs. Clint Eastwood makes too much sense so we can count on that not happening.

    And from the current political mess, perhaps we will see Huma Abedin vs. Chris Christie in 2020. Wouldn't that be fun (but scary).

    My money is on an Elizabeth Warren vs. David Duke deathmatch in 2020.

    I wonder what the Vegas odds are on that one.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 2:17 PM
  • Good point CB!

    The fact that things have gotten that bad in politics that these type of presidential candidates are the best we can do I truly believe is the only reason Trump has even a slim chance of winning. I think some people believe the only way things ever change is if it gets so **** bad that both sides are forced to come together and change. They truly feel like Trump is so **** crazy that he would be so bad that it would force the kind of change in politics everyone wants.

    I completely disagree and think that's a horrible way to look at things! While I do agree the political parties & beliefs we have today need to be completely disintegrated & started from scratch, I don't really want to nuke the whole country to do that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 2:45 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 3:30 PM
  • -- Posted by ahustead on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 3:59 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 8:35 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Wed, Oct 5, 2016, at 9:19 PM
  • Hey, ahusted, is it really true that Johnson didn't know what Allepo is and doesn't know the name of the dictator of North Korea?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 7:29 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 7:56 AM
  • If anyone is interested, Russ Carnahan will be at Bloomfield's at 10:45 AM Saturday.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 12:56 PM
  • Just curious, Old School, what's the matter with Jill Stein except that she isn't going to win, so it eats up your vote if you live in a swing state?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 2:07 PM
  • I've not heard anything about Johnson not knowing who Kim Jung Un is.

    However, in Johnson's own words "Foreign policy isn't about pop quizzes. It's about having the principles and judgement to not engage in civil wars we can't resolve and regime changes without regard to consequences."

    -- Posted by ahustead on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 2:45 PM
  • In an interview with Chris Matthews, he couldn't name a live world leader he respected, and he didn't bring up any that he didn't respect, so I was left with the impression that he couldn't name any.

    I'm also fairly skeptical about the Libertarian Party's belief that we should abolish public schools (that's been in their platform for a while). I mean, it seems to me that if the schools aren't good enough, we should make them better, not get rid of them. I don't know how the Libertarians feel about other government activities, but I think people generally like at least some of them. Social Security, for example - most people like it quite a bit, but I think the Lib's are against it.

    Government sure isn't perfect, but I've got more of a say in it than I have in Goldman Sachs, so I'd rather have things run someplace where I've got a vote, rather than leaving everything up to the market.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 3:45 PM
  • But I do like that statement about military action.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 4:14 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 10:32 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 6, 2016, at 10:53 PM
  • Personally for me she is to much like Bernie. All these hopes & big dreams with no real life workable plan to make them happen. People like that scare me because they strike me as people who would try to do it anyway & just pass stuff that doesn't work just to get it done. Then we are just in a whole new problem. To me, that's a very poor way of doing things.

    I do like her desire to go more green, but to think we could be 100% green in less than 15 years is just ignorant to how things actually work in the world. I'd like it to work like that, but it just doesn't.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Oct 7, 2016, at 8:01 AM
  • I, too, agree with Johnson on our apparent lack of restraint toward nation building. I reckon when you remove an iron fisted dictator, you better be prepared to rule and keep order while you are building a democracy.

    Of course, I'm not totally sure "democratizing" the world is a workable plan.

    I also liked the point of this article. Media is jumping all over Gary Johnson for a couple of "senior moments" but yet Trump can spew lies, misinterpretations, and slander and it gets overlooked as "Oh, it's just Trump."

    The funniest part of that interview with Trump from the article is where he says that even though he knows nothing about the topic, he's going to have a very strong opinion.

    Yeah, Donald, but we need solutions, not opinions and once again, which side are you on regarding using Yucca Mountain? Voters would like to know.

    Apparently he's just not going to state a position, and it would be too much work to learn about the issue and state what you feel should be done.

    No one knows where he stands on anything.

    Abortion? There's about a blue million clips of Trump on both sides of that one.

    How to defeat ISIS? "It will be a very good plan." That's it?

    I also really like how Donald has to remind everyone constantly about his need to stroke his own ego.

    "I have big enterprises here. And especially my building and the hotel ― Trump International."

    "So that makes me more important and better than the rest of you losers."

    I made that last quote up, but I'm pretty sure it's rattling around in his head.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 7, 2016, at 8:30 AM
  • Comparison with Trump is a pretty low bar. I'd vote for a dead dog before I'd vote for him. Does this make me a Dead Dog Democrat (or at least a Dead Dog Voter)?

    Re Jill Stein (and green energy in particular), it seems to me that what is possible depends a lot on how much one wants to do it. I mean, was it possible to convert private industry to war production in the time it took for us to produce the munitions we did for WWII? Only with the kind of full mobilization that happened.

    Stein couldn't possibly win and end up with the kind of opposition Obama has had in Congress. The only way she'd win would be if there was a sweeping change in the electorate - which would show up in Congress, too. I also felt this was true for Bernie. Not so much for HRC.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Oct 7, 2016, at 4:16 PM
  • I truly believe that Mike Pence is a good Christian. Not everyone believes that this is a positive thing, but I think that most people do.

    Now that Trump has been exposed, wouldn't Pence's best call be to quit the campaign in outrage and just start running for 2020 as a good, solid, honest candidate? I doubt that many people would blame him.

    If he doesn't, his God may blame him.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Oct 7, 2016, at 5:23 PM
  • Trumplethinskin... I like it!

    So, have y'all seen what Robert DeNiro has to say about him?

    I think that about sums it up.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Oct 8, 2016, at 8:43 AM
  • Mike Pence may be a good Christian. I don't know. Whether that makes him more qualified for public office than he would otherwise be, I seriously doubt.

    HOWEVER - I have long wondered what Evangelicals (or other voters who think serious Christianity qualifies one for office) were thinking giving ANY support to Donald Trump. He pretty obviously has no concern for anything anybody would see as Christian values.

    And now, in the face of this tape, if Mike Pence doesn't resign from the campaign, taking the Evangelical vote with him, I'm going to be re-confirmed in the idea that they're all just a bunch of hypocrites.

    They'll forgive anything if they think the offender is one of their own, and forgive nothing if they see the offender as an outsider - someone they don't like for whatever reason.

    it sounds like you may have similar feelings about Pence & what he should do, Interested. I respect your conviction - and hope it's shared in the rest of the religious community.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Oct 8, 2016, at 3:43 PM
  • Trumplethinskin is great! I'm going to start referring to him that way in anything I write.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Oct 8, 2016, at 4:01 PM
  • Looks like Pence released a reaction to the tape: (I got blocked shortly after reading it, asking me to subscribe. Don't know if that will happen to everybody.)

    It doesn't look like he's resigning. He stresses that the tape is 11 years old & says Trump is remorseful & has apologized.

    I'm not buying, what about you?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Oct 8, 2016, at 4:44 PM
  • MO Senator, Roy Blunt also stated his position on Trumplethinskin's tape here:

    It seems Blunt still stands with the Donald. Think this will affect him in Saline County?

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sun, Oct 9, 2016, at 9:00 AM
  • There's no changing Donald Trump, he's the same guy he was in the 80's thru today. Why would he change, he became a TV celebrity by being an entitled, rich, boorish, frat boy in a mans body.

    Pence is a politician first, and a Christian second, like most Republicans. Christianity is a convenience that buys them automatic votes. If you got enough Christians in your electorate, you don't have to have any ideas or solve any problems.

    And Roy Blunt.

    Missouri's own corrupt career politician. Y'all realize he was having an affair with a DC Tobacco lobbyist while still married, right? When the wife found out, she kicked him out. He lives full time in Washington and only maintains a residence in Missouri so he can run for office here.

    And all the Christians around the state still think old Roy is on their side. I'm not sure he even went to the trouble to make some kind of public "I have sinned" stunt.

    And, oh yeah, two of his kids are now DC lobbyists also.

    I thought the conservatives thought lobbyist influence was hurting our government. I guess it's like everything else. Lobbyists are only bad if they are on the other side.

    It's fun to watch my Republican friends justify voting for Trump "because he's a Washington outsider" but then vote for Blunt because ..... well they don't seem to have a reason other than "because he's a Republican."

    I still struggle with modern Conservative logic until I remind myself that there is no logic or reason among right-wing voters. It's all based on intuition and "gut-feel." Which essentially makes them blinded by their own bias.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Oct 9, 2016, at 10:09 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Mon, Oct 10, 2016, at 8:46 PM
  • Somebody has a crush on Mark Dice apparently.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM
  • Happy 41st Anniversary, Bill and Hillary.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • You misspelled "Columbus Day" CB. lol

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 10:25 AM
  • While browsing one of my favorite websites,, I ran across this guide to global warming.

    Not sure if y'all are familiar with, but the guy who operates it, with help from others, is the original dude who created this check which you may have heard about on the web following a battle with Verizon back in 2006.

    You can browse through his comics, which I mostly find hilarious (at least the ones I get).

    Randall is an extremely bright guy.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 1:28 PM
  • Well, the MPD is getting sued again. I wonder how much this bit of incompetence will cost us? And, why hasn't this been reported locally?

    -- Posted by theshiftyjelly on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 1:59 PM
  • Hey you can celebrate in your own way there CB. Now we all know Columbus didn't discover America, he was jus next in a long line of lookers at the New World.

    What the Europeans did at the time was not immoral or wrong at that time. It's very easy to look back with our different morality today and judge them harshly.

    Luckily since then society has evolved, well least in some ways. Course now people are offended by the name Columbus so clearly we haven't evolved that much.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 2:45 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Oct 11, 2016, at 10:15 PM
  • For folks out there who keep telling me that there is no difference in Democrats and Republicans I reckon I can offer this article as an example of some of the fine nuances of why I prefer Democrats.

    To me, one overall difference is in ideology regarding who gets favored in courts, the corporation or business owner versus the consumer or worker.

    Democrats tend to favor protections like that offered by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The agency was created and voted into existence by congress and signed into law by Obama following the lessons learned from the rampant fraud in the mortgage industry that led to the collapse of the bond market.

    However, Republicans (beholden to their contributors) have since sought to weaken the agency, which exists to protect consumers from payday lenders and predatory practices in the financial industry.

    I think this quote from the article sums it up.

    "The agency has been a political lightning rod since it was created by Congress in a major financial overhaul law in 2010 to protect consumers from harmful banking and lending practices. Wall Street interests, the banking and consumer finance industries and Republicans in Congress have fiercely opposed and criticized the agency."

    So while it's just another small thing in an election that's full of big bold drama, I see it as another example of how conservatives seem to not care much about the actual lives of their constituents.

    It seems the GOP only cares about is that their supporters keep believing that trickle-down economics is somehow working for them and that the most important thing facing the country is which bathroom you are allowed to use and whether women have to do what the government tells them when it comes to reproduction.

    And all this time I have been told that Republicans stand for "FREEDOM."

    I guess in the case identified by the linked article, it's freedom for banks, investment companies, and lenders to take advantage of consumers.

    A little known aspect of this topic is that legislatures in tea-party lovin' states have taken steps to weaken Usury Laws over the past decade or so at the request of contributors from financial institutions and payday lenders.

    The feds can't tell the states what to do, but they could create this agency with the goal of identifying and prosecuting those who do violate what laws are left.

    So I reckon my point here would be that for those working class folks who believe Republicans have their best interest at heart the quoted paragraph above, and the jist of this article, indicates something quite different.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 8:47 AM
  • I personally am very proud to be an American. Yes we have done some things in the past that today seem deplorable to get here. But everything that happened in the past, good & bad got us to where we are today.

    We are the greatest country in the world, IMO, and if I didn't have that opinion I'd have already moved to the country I thought was. Are we perfect, nope we aren't perfect. Are we the best there is & at the best we've been up to this point, yes we are, IMO.

    Left Wing & Right Wing people are all idiots IMO. If you are all one or the other, to me you are a part of the problem we have not the solution. We need different views to come to the best solution, but if you won't budge simply because it means you are working with the other club, than you are an immature child IMO.

    Unfortunately there is no changing it. SD & CB nothing any GOP person could say would ever get you to budge of the high mountain you sit for the Dems. Just as nothing you say will ever get the GOP guys of their mountain top. So instead I'll just sit back, watch my football & let the chips fall where they may. If Dems win & pass Dem laws, then I'll follow those, if the GOP wins & pass those laws than I'll follow those. I'm screwed either way lol.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 9:22 AM
  • Lol, you do realize you are Sheeple too don't you CB?

    The only different between us is I'm well aware & fine not doing anything about it and admitting what I am. You don't do anything more than I do to change anything so you follow like a sheep just like everyone else, but you choose to whine & complain and throw temper tantrums about everything while you do it. So both sheep, I'm just walking proud while you sulk along pouting about it.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 11:08 AM
  • I agree CB, I would like to get some updates from the MDN on the case. If papers & news from other cities can get updates surely the hometown paper can at least get a couple quotes from attorney & police public relations.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 11:11 AM
  • I guess the Columbia Tribune somehow got "informed" before our local paper. Nice reporting work MDN.

    -- Posted by theshiftyjelly on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 11:57 AM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    The officers themselves were not served until 2:20 p.m. on Oct. 11. Somebody tipped the Tribune off to the lawsuit before the officers themselves even knew. I don't see where we can be expected to get news out ahead of the Tribune when somebody hands them the tip instead of us and half the people involved don't even know there's a lawsuit yet.
  • Pretty sure the cops have no grounds to sue the guy Fire. The only thing they DID wrong was shooting towards an active parking lot at a moving vehicle.

    Now what they said is what was really wrong. Clearly they lied a lot and you can't have cops who lie because if you can't trust what the cops say than they can't ever arrest anyone because at the point of he said/she said they lose all credibility.

    Frankly both the officers should already have been fired. They didn't really do anything "illegal" but they did were very unethical which warrants there firing. I think whoever had the tape & knew they lied should be fired as well for the same reason. If still employed they can't do their job.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 12, 2016, at 2:22 PM
  • Remember - this started with a discussion of Columbus Day vs Indigenous People's Day. My birthday is around this time and some years it falls on the holiday. When I was a kid, I was glad of that, and greatly admired the brave explorer who sailed off, risking his life to possibly fall over the edge of the earth, in order to advance our knowlege - to find out what was there & see if he could get to Asia that way. Later I found out that when he sailed away, it was pretty well accepted among mariners that the world was round. I also found that the Spanish monarchs who bankrolled him sent him off hoping for he would find treasure for them, since they had just spent most of theirs in warfare (Wikkipedia: So he was under a lot of pressure to return a profit.

    I slso found out that he took the people who had aided him and his shipwrecked crew (Taino, Arawak & Lucayan), and impressed them into slavery, raped the women & killed those who objected with extreme cruelty because he thought they had gold and he wanted it (same source and many others). Regarding the question of the morals of the times, you're right, the Europeans didn't have much of a code of conduct in their domination of the Americas, but Columbus was so extreme that he was relieved of his governorship and arrested by his successor for crimes against the original inhabitants of the Caribbean Islands.

    All in all, I'm a lot happier with my birthday falling on "Indigenous People's Day" then on "Slaver, Rapist, Torturer, Murderer, Thief (otherwise known as Columbus) Day".

    And if we want to talk about entitlement ... Didn't the Europeans who took the American continents retire the word?

    I know this is now going to launch a discussion of "Whaddaya wanta do, give everything back to the beginning of time? War had always been about taking stuff & killing people." That's true and I don't have an answer for that - but it seems like it should be pretty easy to at least stop glorifying the criminal and the crime.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 8:16 AM
  • CB is sheeple

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 8:18 AM
  • I'm not sure too many people really glorify Columbus. Everyone acknowledges now that he wasn't the 1st, he was just the one who really opened the door. And most people know he was a prick. Frankly they can change the name or get rid of the holiday all together, I don't really care.

    I will not ignore history however & pretend like he didn't help open the door for westward expansion which gives us all that we have today. You also forgot the part where when he came back he wasn't even allowed back in Jamiaca even to save his crew from a hurricane & ended up stranded on a beach after his ship sank. He did end up being rescued but he spent the rest of his life in squaller & outcast in society dying a broken & delusional old man. It is perfectly fair to call him a great explorer for opening the door to the west, while at the same time acknowledging he was a pretty bad human being. But in the end, what he opened for the future outweighs his bad deeds in terms of his historical significance.

    Much like Thomas Jefferson for example. History has shown he wasn't the best guy in the world, far from it in fact. However without him we all might be speaking French, wouldn't have a National Library or the Declaration & Constitution could look very different. So was he a great man, no he wasn't, should he be celebrated for his contributions to advancement & history, of course he should. This list could go on and on.

    Ty Cobb, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Winston Churchill, Caeser, Shakespear the list goes on and on. Point is, if you only want to celebrate people who have done great things while being perfect human beings, than may as well just don't worry about celebrating anyone.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 8:47 AM
  • While Oldschool was busy concocting a historical rationalization for bad behavior, I was off scanning the Washington Post and ran across this article which I thought I would share.

    This is the America I prefer to think is truly who we are and hope to see more of in the future.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 9:27 AM
  • I don't know if everybody still glorifies Columbus, but having a National Holiday named after him kind of looks like it. I don't want to get rid of the holiday - I mean, some years my birthday is a day off from work! I'm VERY OK with that - but I'd much rather change the name.

    I guess you'd have to still call him a great explorer - he was certainly an excellent sailor & ship captain. How you feel about westward expansion is a lot more complicated. I don't know if something that may have been inevitable is necessarily good thing - and for whom. What outweighs what probably depends on who you talk to.

    Of course nobody's perfect - but who you lionize as you look back should take into account the whole story. And national holidays are one way we express our admiration. I'd like to give some honor to the people who welcomed and fed the Europeans - who then decimated them.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 9:29 AM
  • That's a great story on that link, SD. Thanks.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 9:45 AM
  • Good story SD, happens all over the country. Despite what many believe, the country has a lot more good people in it than bad.

    So call it Pocahontas Day or something. Someone will be offended no matter what you call it so doesn't really matter either way.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 10:16 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 11:17 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 13, 2016, at 11:44 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 12:03 AM
  • Marshall is a racist little town. These comments just affirm that belief to me. It never has and never will be a community like many of the towns around it. People here seem to have so many issues, I'm talking mental issues.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 1:07 AM
  • I fully support the Bureau of Land Management and it's efforts to preserve heritage sites and Native American landmarks.

    Oh, yeah, and Glenn Beck's bankrupt "The Blaze Network" should not be considered a credible source for anything.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 7:33 AM
  • Most of the racists I know are proud to be that way. Trump has created an environment that makes them feel like tough guys for openly bragging about their bias. I expect an open resurgence of the KKK in the area any minute.

    I also expect to see Trump supporters causing problems at polling places on November 8th.

    To me, they come across as small minded bigots, but I have to work and live with them.

    I find it's best to see them as Homo Sapiens no doubt looked at the last of the Neanderthals, "those poor ba$tards won't be around much longer."

    It also helps if you can find the humor in their ignorance. Look at it as a live performance of Jay Leno's "Jaywalking" interviews.

    Also, it's hard to estimate the impact of 100 years of State School graduates on the local gene pool.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 7:46 AM
  • There are a lot of things at play here for one we have a fractured community, many communities within the larger community who have little or no interaction. 1. Some families in this town have lived in chronic poverty and have developed that mindset. I'm talking about people who have been failed by their parents and the school system these were kids who were always in detention because no one wanted to deal with them including teachers and parents. We never expected anything from them because we felt that we already knew what they would become. Many left school with no direction and now have kids that they can't afford and live completely off of the government. The schools hold their kids for the better part of the day and feed them, even send them home with food(which is great as no child should have to be hungry) We have professional parents people who care nothing about civics or voting and all about what they can get for free. If we don't start addressing the poverty and the need for jobs in this town that actually pay living wages then nothing will change. 2. Our businesses and service providers offer lackluster goods and services because they know we have no other choice. It's not uncommon to have to call three different companies when wanting work done and you're lucky if they show up. They need competition but will not allow it. 3. There are no opportunities for social interaction we lost countless bars, a race track, a skating rink, a drive in theater, beer gardens, street carnivals. The activities that we do have, for example the county fair or Santa fe Trail Days neglect to involve the whole community and only attract a certain group of people. We shut out blacks and immigrants from these events. We fail to offer something for everyone. 4. We have good old boy and girl officials many are wonderful but there are many who are inept and crooked. This comes from fostering a complacent population.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 2:52 PM
  • Good one, fire.

    It's good to see you don't feel encumbered by the rules of grammar, spelling, or punctuation.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 3:03 PM
  • Firethecurrent, You basically proved my point. I'll add that IF I were black or an immigrant that I wouldn't spend one red penny on your business. Judging from your posts, you would, most likely consciously or unconsciously treat me differently as a customer. If you saw me at any of these events you would probably make me feel unwelcome. We all want the same things and are in the same boat you just can't get over yourself to see it. You're blinded by your color.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 5:40 PM
  • So the Police were chasing someone on foot today through College circle about 5pm. Does anyone know what was going on?

    -- Posted by cheesehead on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 8:42 PM
  • I've been wondering where the actual Christians are that one would think would be less than ecstatic about Trump taking over the supposed party of "Family Values."

    I reckon I finally found them and it appears they are all women.

    I know, I know. Some of you are now saying "Where are those women's husbands? Don't they know their place is in the kitchen?"

    My favorite from that article is this take on Falwell and Dobson, in my view, a couple of the most despicable humans alive, who have used faith to con Christians into making them millionaires.

    "We cannot stand by and allow the Jerry Falwells and James Dobsons of the world claim to speak for God regarding Trump and sexism." -Diana Butler Bass

    Much like 2000, the actual Christian on the ballot is a Democrat. How about y'all look up which candidate has actually been Confirmed and a fairly regular church attendee?

    I am not claiming to be a Christian myself. Those who regularly read this blog know that. But I am tired of all the right-wing nut-job talk about claims of Christianity being owned by the GOP when there isn't much reality behind it that I can see. They only preach on that one issue since the Republicans decided to weaponize abortion for political gain.

    I guess since Clinton understands the value of a secular government and judicial system, her actual faith and belief get downgraded somehow.

    Hmmmm.... that's not political at all, is it?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 10:09 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 8:59 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 9:30 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 9:34 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 9:37 PM
  • No one is asking for special treatment. Just fair and impartial treatment. It's a nice night, maybe I want to go for a relaxing ride or sit at the PUBLIC park and enjoy the breeze without the police following me around. Is that too much to ask for? I'm not doing anything wrong. I have nothing to hide. Let me be! Leave me alone. I have witnessed the police following/harassing everyone out after dark. This is not ethical and it's not normal in a free country. I hope the federal investigation is covering the whole police department and their practices and not just the Wal-Mart incident. Things have to change.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Sun, Oct 16, 2016, at 11:16 PM
  • I think maybe Eieio is campaigning for a spot in the basket of deplorables.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Oct 17, 2016, at 7:56 AM
  • The activities that we do have, for example the county fair or Santa fe Trail Days neglect to involve the whole community and only attract a certain group of people. We shut out blacks and immigrants from these events. We fail to offer something for everyone. 4. We have good old boy and girl officials many are wonderful but there are many who are inept and crooked. This comes from fostering a complacent population.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 2:52 PM

    Can you please explain how these events shut out black people & immigrants? I will agree the SFTD got screwed up when they moved it back to the square from the park, that was a huge mistake. But I'm really trying to figure out how the events specifically shut out people? Maybe they do and I just don't see it, so I'm hoping you can't point me to specifics that I can gain knowledge of.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Oct 17, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • Perhaps since the County Fair is pretty much centered on 4-H, Agriculture and Country Music, it seems logical that it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. That's not hard to see.

    I've never been quite clear on what Santa Fe Trail Days are all about. I thought it started as a "retail festival" for Downtown Marshall Merchants, but am not sure.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 7:26 AM
  • It's a county fair based in a county with a mainly ag based economy. So why wouldn't the county fair revolve around that overwhelming majority of Ag economy? Not everything in the world is everyone's cup of team, but that doesn't mean they are specifically trying to keep people out on purpose. I mean is there some rule banning minorities from being in 4-H, agriculture or country music that I didn't know about?

    I think you are correct about the Trail Days. It worked great when they moved it to the park, but some of the businesses on the square really wanted it back on the square for it's original purpose & since it is a Chamber deal, they went with their businesses. But again, don't see how that is keeping minorities out? It's a wide open free festival that anyone can go & enjoy if you want too.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 8:59 AM
  • It's about impossible for a town as small as ours to offer something for everyone. We don't have the money nor the number of people to have something for everyone. I honestly can't think of any festivals or fairs that literally have something for everyone. You try to cater to as many people as you can for what you can handle. I'm sorry if all you like is hardcore head banging heavy metal music & mosh pits. There aren't enough people in Marshall who would go to that type of event to warrant spending the money for the band, lighting & setup & loss of revenue for people who don't like it not going.

    Does anyone know of any festivals (especially in small rural areas) that have rap, grunge, heavy metal, country, oldies, jazz, classical, salsa & whatever else is out there for "everyone"?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 9:09 AM
  • You're right it is impossible, I guess I'm trying to refer to the sense of community at events in other towns. Literally half the the town attends if not more. You see everyone out regardless of race, class, ect. Contrast this to events in Marshall in which half of the population may not even know about an upcoming event and of the ones that do, only a small number of people show up. Why is this? How can it be changed? The only thing that actually still brings out ALL of the community in Marshall are the 4th of July fireworks display. We also need to stop frowning on alcohol at our events.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 4:52 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 7:43 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Oct 18, 2016, at 8:00 PM
  • Now I do agree with you Free on the overall effectiveness of stuff we do around here. I don't go to anything really, I have a family and most of the things aren't fun enough for the whole family to warrant the effort it takes to get the family there. I fully agree getting alcohol back involved in events would help draw more crowds. Could make more money with beer gardens or just letting people buy a beer to walk around with.

    Honestly the big way to change things is to get young blood in organizations like the Chamber of Commerce. It's mostly the old guard who like to do things the way they've always been done cause it's easy and aren't to happy with new ideas. Santa Fe Trails is the perfect example. When moved to the park during the square remodel it was a great event. Had plenty of room & lots more to do. But the Chamber runs it & some of the businesses on the square complained they wanted it back after the remodel was done. Well rather than do what was best & stay at the park the old guard feared losing a business or two from the chamber so they moved back & the event has now basically died.

    So I completely agree the events overall are stale & need some injection of new ideas. That involves people like you Free running for Chamber Board or something like that to work from inside to make the change.

    But I don't agree at all that they are purposely blocking minorities or something, that is just wrong.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 19, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • If unhappy with the current array of events and activities available, there is always the option to follow the example of the Foothills Fest organizers and put one together yourself.

    -- Posted by ahustead on Wed, Oct 19, 2016, at 11:13 AM
  • Very good point Ahusted.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 19, 2016, at 11:20 AM
  • 55 companies in 12 years for Sedalia. MSDC last 12 years....Hmmm...1?

    Sedalia Democrat article link:

    -- Posted by theshiftyjelly on Thu, Oct 20, 2016, at 2:47 PM
  • Are we counting companies that came & went or just companies that stuck around? 3 in the building Picosita's is in alone. New meat place on north side. Had 5 or 6 at least come & go on the square. Aaron's, least a couple of the payday loan places. New lumberyard that just opened up, Arby's (think that fits in time frame). New clothing places in the Plaza. Had a couple tattoo places come & go. Old donut shop has had least three different businesses in it during that time frame, including the Greek place in it now. 2nd Mexican place opened up, China Buffet just off square. That's what I can think of off the top of my head anyway.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Oct 20, 2016, at 3:35 PM
  • Guess you probably didn't read the article. It refers to 55 manufacturing companies brought to their development parks by their Pettis Development council. Hence, why I referenced the MSDC and just how many they brought in to Saline County.

    -- Posted by theshiftyjelly on Thu, Oct 20, 2016, at 4:00 PM
  • Actually you misread Shifty, read it again. The quote says:

    "During Christle's tenure, three Enhanced Enterprise Zones were created, which now house 55 companies."

    The only time "manufacturing" was said was two sentences before when they state they created a manufacturing committee along with a mayor's committee.

    To me that sentence says they created three zones for businesses that maybe where old areas they tore down or new areas that they remodeled. Kind of like saying they redid the Plaza or something like that in Marshall.

    That's how I read it anyway, I know the sentence has nothing to do with specifically manufacturing.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Oct 20, 2016, at 4:31 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 2:30 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 2:40 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 2:43 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 2:48 AM
  • I think maybe Eieio is campaigning for a spot in the basket of deplorables.

    I think Smartdog has gained said position.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 3:21 AM
  • Oldschool, are you really trying to tell us that Sedalia's economic efforts haven't paid off? They aren't growing?

    I'm afraid I can't see your point in starting an argument with ShiftJelly for pointing out the glaring difference in economic development success between Marshall and Sedalia over the past few decades.

    But, hey, Marshall's got an abandoned state institution that it's responsible for now, so I am sure things will be booming in no time.

    And you, Eieio, are just far too clever for me. Nice group of random links. BENGHAZI!!!!!!

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 7:42 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • Not saying that at all Smart. Sedalia has done a great job growing and bringing in new large businesses. Just go west on 50 & see all the new big businesses out that way, it's awesome.

    Simply was pointing out that while Marshall is fairly stagnant it's not as dead as he was claiming. Wasn't trying to start an argument, simply showing evidence to the contrary that it wasn't as bad as he's saying.

    Sedalia has always been a larger town with better businesses than us, so it's not a surprise that would continue. They also have no issue building new schools unlike our town that seems to believe new schools are the sign of an apocalypse.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 8:12 AM
  • I never claimed it was dead. Those are your words. I was simply pointing out the difference between what the Pettis County Development Corporation has done versus what the MSDC has done...even taking into account the size difference, it's still shows how ineffective the MSDC is. That was my point. The rest are your assumptions.

    -- Posted by theshiftyjelly on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 11:24 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 21, 2016, at 11:40 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 23, 2016, at 1:06 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 23, 2016, at 1:34 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 23, 2016, at 1:44 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 23, 2016, at 1:55 PM
  • Not so sure that Old MacDonald can write.

    Also seems to have a crush on tea party congressmen that think they are federal prosecutors.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Oct 24, 2016, at 7:27 AM
  • There may have been a high speed police chase last weekend. I'm not sure what I was hearing on my scanner. Might want to check in to it MDN.

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Tue, Oct 25, 2016, at 12:31 PM
  • Many thanks to the Concerned Women for America of Missouri for bringing a foreign right-wing nut-job conspiracy theorist to Marshall to spread more hate of our current president.

    I especially like Mr. Loudon's self confessed admiration of Zenith Applied Philosophy. I think the following statement regarding Z.A.P. is quite informative.

    "ZAP has a world view which is a combination of Scientology, Eastern mysticism and the ideas of the American John Birch Society."

    Yeah, that's what we need, more Scientology and John Birch Society. That's the ticket.

    Where in the wild, wild world of sports do folks in Marshall keep finding these people to admire?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Oct 26, 2016, at 12:10 PM
  • Hey MDN guys, can anyone look up and see if the two cops under investigation are still on paid leave or if they are working or what? I know these things take forever, so didn't know if tax dollars where going to them sitting on the couch selling It Works stuff or if they were actually having to earn their salary?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 26, 2016, at 4:00 PM
    Response by Arron Hustead:
    They are still on paid administrative leave. A decision was not reached to move them from that status at the last council meeting on Oct. 17. Because it's a personnel decision, the council cannot discuss it in open session. I've been assured that we'll be informed once a decision is made.
  • Ok good to know they are getting a 3 or 4 month paid vacation on the tax payers dime. Save money on daycare & plenty of time to peddle their side businesses and take vacations.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Oct 26, 2016, at 8:18 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 27, 2016, at 6:13 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Oct 27, 2016, at 6:28 PM
  • In my opinion, most of these comments and closed minded conversations belong on a website forum-- away from MDN website. Craigslist, Reddit, anything along those lines.

    Posting "youtube" or another blog website and credible reference is ridiculous.

    Would you start a research paper--or an opinion editorial with, "according to Wikipedia..." Use your head, that the lump three feet above your...

    I realize MDN has a disclosure for not releasing names, they elected to use the usernames to publically display. On the other hand, Letters to the Editor receive much more scrutiny and requires name, occupation and just about proof you're not an idiot.

    If you commenters have the Moxy to write on this "Speak Out" without regard to those who read the articles for legitimate news, you need should move on to Sedalia Democrat or as mentioned above, craiglist forums. Not to confuse CCB with his magazine subscription to "adult forums"

    -- Posted by Abovethelaw on Fri, Oct 28, 2016, at 11:36 AM
  • How do you feel about Reuters as a source?

    Y'all should make sure and thank your farmer friends for the GDP boost from growing all those soybeans.

    Also, if you pay attention, we need those trade agreements like TPP and NAFTA to open world markets for our ag products from right here in Saline County. Without them farm prices would tank even further.

    So think about that a little before you pick a side to vote for. Which candidates are more likely to support expanding foreign markets for ag products?

    One says they want to scrap all our current trade pacts, the other says we should expand them.

    Farmers need those hungry people overseas buying our crops and livestock as we now compete, not just with our neighbors, but with all other ag producers world wide.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Oct 28, 2016, at 2:36 PM
  • Reuters...HuffingtonPost...Wikipedia...Washington Post... its all the same.

    Go to the source documents. You sent a link with garbage attached to all this.

    "Gross domestic product increased at a 2.9 percent annual rate after rising at a 1.4 percent pace in the second quarter, the Commerce Department said on Friday."

    Instead of quoting Reuters, send the link to the actual Commerce department link. This is all embellished just like FoxNews or CNN

    Government reports are dry. Get used to research--not flashy news stories

    -- Posted by Abovethelaw on Fri, Oct 28, 2016, at 3:45 PM
  • You're welcome for the tip-off MDN. You might reply saying that you already knew about the high speed chase but that's no reason to report the story 7 days later. I've applied at MDN two maybe three times, and never got a call back. I hope it has nothing to do with my appearance. I have a diploma, degree, and experience(high school journalism) Maybe, just maybe, I should start my own newspaper!

    -- Posted by Free-soul on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 12:33 AM
  • If you bother to look at the end of most every Wikipedia page, there is a rather extensive bibliography with links to all that "dry" research. That listing of sources is a great place to find the source documents and start doing in depth research.

    I think most people already knew that news articles like those found from Reuters, AP, New York Times, etc are a synopsis of the topic regurgitated so it fits the 4th grade reading level of the average American. They, too, generally will contain links to the source documents for the information contained within.

    I believe it is a hallmark of Fox News to cite the infamous "sources are saying that..." but you don't find much of that from the "lame stream media." Instead, you find links or quoted sources that those interested can look up and further investigate.

    Someone asked me the other day why a Democrat like me would ever watch or read Fox News. That's an easy one, if you want to have informed political discussion, you better fully understand the postilions of both sides. Plus it gives you some real insight when the other guy's argument is quoted from Hannity, or say, Alex Jones or James Dobson. Sadly, I see that most folks today already made up their minds about what a given source has to say before they even start reading.

    Does that voice in your head read a given source with snark and a penchant toward disbelief and anger from the start, or is it an open minded attempt to understand the other guys point of view? I'll say one thing, while I only occasionally agree with OldSchool, I get the impression he reads and thinks before forming an opinion. Except, of course, if you bring up those new schools.

    Personally, I find it interesting to read both sides of a given story, say the Fox News version and the Huffington Post version of a given topic to compare. Sometimes they are amazingly close and sometimes you can't tell they are talking about the same thing. It's kind of fascinating.

    If I want in depth information I look to better sources like The Atlantic (long articles, well written), The New Yorker (same), Scientific American (just the facts, ma'am), and good old NPR (a long time favorite where you usually get the whole story, not just sound bites).

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 9:44 AM
  • To continue.... (apparently this blog does not like the use of "less than or equal to" symbols and kept truncating my post)

    I think perhaps we also need to keep in mind that blog posts are not research papers. They would most likely be categorized as opinion or editorial comments.

    Posting links to behavioral or neurological studies of why humans do the things they do would be completely lost on the audience of a Speak Out Blog. Same goes for economic research.

    Do you really think that folks reading here know what "Null Hypothesis" means and what the significance of p being less than or equal to .05 indicates with respect to disproving the null?

    Interpretation and summation is required of pretty much all academic research before it means much to the general public.

    For example, I find it interesting how many people miss the important fact that correlation does not prove causation. Just because you can analyze historical data and say that when A goes up, B goes up also does not prove that A causes B. The easy, short explanation is that there could be a third, fourth, or fifth factor that causes both of them. Amateur data analysis can be very misleading.

    Regarding anonymity, during the most recent round of new school drama, I was attacked by several on here for my positions. Some even wanted to meet me in the parking lot to duke it out. (I'm looking at you, Oldschool) You really think I want to have to worry that some nut-job is waiting for me after work? I can only imagine the backlash against myself, or CBB for example, if we were to post under our actual names.

    Of course, I am also not so naive as to believe that information on who the folks who post here regularly are has not crept out from the MDN into the community.

    So all that said, I, too am glad to see anyone with any opinion posting here. Looking forward to what you have to say, AbovetheLaw.

    First question. Are you a Steven Seagal fan or what?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 9:47 AM
  • So having the last part of that post come first should make for some confusing reading. Sorry.

    Please read in chronological order before blasting me.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 9:51 AM
  • I never mentioned that the "further reading" or "external links" weren't bad. Stick to discussing local news. If you go on Rants above national news--go to the Craiglist forums--or post comments on the websites discussion threads. They exist too you know... Only those aren't as anonymous. MDN wants to protect you from the other citizens. The group of you who post craziness make our town look terrible.

    "Above the Law" --Out

    -- Posted by Abovethelaw on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 9:51 AM
  • I hope you didn't mean you were leaving, AboveTheLaw, although it doesn't look like you think this discussion is what it should be.

    I don't know, I find it interesting to hear what people (those connected enough to Marshall to be here) have to say on issues, both national and local. Why should we restrict the discussion to Marshall, or Saline County? I mean, isn't this a website discussion thread? What's wrong with discussing national issues here?

    For example, I'd like to pick up the conversation about the TPP with Smart Dog. Although the deal may be good in helping ag exports, I'm really worried about the Investor State Dispute Settlement provisions in it. That means that companies centered in countries in the pact can sue governments that pass laws or regulations that reduce the company's expected profits - and it will be heard in an arbitration panel of 3 unelected judges (usually international trade lawyers), not the court system of any of the countries involved. There is no way to appeal their decision. So something like a "buy local" provision in municipal procurement contracts may be something a foreign corporation can sue you for as an unfair restriction of trade (since they aren't allowed to try to get the contract) - and it won't go to a US court, it will go to this trade arbitration panel. By the way, a US company that isn't local can't bring a suit like that.

    ISDS (Investor State ...) suits have also been brought under NAFTA about environmental protection laws, country-of-origin labeling for meat, and various other laws & policies people have enacted through their governments because they think those policies will be best for their communities. Governments, consumers, workers, or citizens can't sue companies that have harmed them - only corporations can bring suit over not making the money they expected to make when they made the investment.

    ISDS looks to me like a way to give investors much more legal protection than citizens of communities where the economic activity is happening, and I'm against codifying & spreading it through ratifying the TPP.

    I just read a good book about this named "Shadow Courts: The Tribunals That Rule Global Trade" by Haley Sweetland Edwards, a journalist who has edited & written for "Time", "The Washington Monthly", "The Los Angeles Times", "The Atlantic", "The New Republic" and "Foreign Policy". There's an article about ISDS here on Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch site.

    The TPP is over 5,000 pages long (3X longer than the King James Bible) and it's a legal document, written by lawyers for lawyers and courts. As a citizen who cares about what laws I'm going to have to live under, I don't think I should have to be a lawyer with no other job than figuring out this treaty (they say it's a trade agreement to make it easier to ratify) to have an opinion. Public Citizen pays people to read the document and tell me what's in it. So do others with different points of view, so I need to look at other reports - and see what's happening in the world - to form an opinion, but I don't think I have to be the one to legally analyze the deal to be able to talk about it.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Sat, Oct 29, 2016, at 12:41 PM
  • You make a great point that I was not aware of regarding TPP, Have to say. Thanks. It's always good to learn more. I am curious if it is foreign companies that want these provisions included, or US Corporations that want power over foreign governments. My guess would be that American Corporations are behind that language, but thanks again for pointing something out I need to do more reading about.

    Of course, farmers still need those foreign markets more than ever and have to trust that our politicians and bureaucrats will get it done.

    Anybody get a warm feeling after that sentence?

    Now, on to one of our current local topics.

    As evidenced by the fact that in just the past few years we have had to vote for Marshall School District levy increases to keep our school district afloat, had to vote for an additional Use Tax promoted by the County Commission, and increased sales taxes to keep the City of Marshall afloat, I assume those great economic impacts that ConAgra promised in their pitch to the city and county for tax abatement's have never been realized.

    What I now wonder is how much more money Marshall Public Schools and the City of Marshall are going to take out of our wallets for the Hab Center.

    Seems to be very, very little knowledge to be shared or information on details regarding this to be provided to the public. I notice that even in their public meeting, there were no details available regarding what the economic impact on taxpayers is going to be.

    All I can see coming is more school district levy increases to pay for additional facilities, maintenance, and additional staff in a school district that apparently can not figure out how to budget for repairs and maintenance of facilities they already have.

    Spare me the crumbling buildings argument. New buildings will not be built as well as those old concrete block and brick buildings. The proposed new buildings would be steel framed, steel sided construction, the exact same methods used for the Bueker Math Annex (5th grade building) that was torn down because it was deemed to be "temporary."

    I also see new City taxes coming to pay for additional staff and maintenance of the additional property, including cemeteries, that the City is now responsible for. There have already been hints that there are buildings to be torn down and asbestos to be dealt with.

    Grants are great, but keep in mind that grants from the feds or state are tax dollars as well, and many have local money matching requirements. Where does that come from in a budget that had to be bailed out with sales tax just last fall?

    As I have said several times before, it is quite surprising to me how strong the conservative movement seems to be in this community, yet every election seems to bring about a tax increase of some sort.

    My opinion? Let the state deal with their own mess.

    When the cemeteries have been properly relocated; when all the decaying buildings that need to be demolished are gone and cleaned up; when those buildings that actually have real commercial value have been professionally inspected showing they are free of hazardous materials and costs of needed repairs are determined; when there is a nice open green field with only viable structures left; when a contract with the state is in place that holds the state responsible for future undiscovered liabilities; and when a determination of what the economic impact on the community will be then the city should consider taking ownership.

    I certainly won't be holding my breath until any of that happens no matter how much Oldschool wishes I would.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Oct 30, 2016, at 11:10 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 30, 2016, at 8:19 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 30, 2016, at 8:27 PM
  • Hammer in the shin or selling drugs for profit X2?

    I hate being redundant.

    -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Oct 30, 2016, at 8:33 PM
  • I'm all for waiting for the state to deal with the hab center. Frankly I'd just leave it all to them & make them tear it all down, clean it all out and make it a new area for homes or businesses. I don't want the city anywhere near any of that stuff.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Oct 31, 2016, at 10:42 AM
  • It is not an option. The city owns it.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Mon, Oct 31, 2016, at 3:52 PM
  • Re TPP & ISDS - This dispute settlement in trade tribunals has been in most trade deals since the '70's or '80's. It was initially there to give investors (mostly European & American) satisfaction if their property was nationalized or destroyed by countries whose court systems they didn't trust (mostly in the developing world). In the '80's, corporate lawyers started to realize it was a way for investors to demand huge sums of money if governments did ANYTHING that hurt their interests & the number of suits skyrocketed.

    We've now been sued under NAFTA for country-of-origin labelling for meat (which Congress repealed right quick to try to avoid paying a settlement) and over cancellation of the Keystone Pipeline. Lots of other localities and countries have been sued. The TPP would make this available to tons more companies in all the countries who sign it now - or sign on later.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Mon, Oct 31, 2016, at 11:54 PM
  • That makes sense, Have To Say, that this is sort of a Cold War holdover. Something that generally happened during all the communist revolutions in South America and the rest of the world back a half century or so ago was to nationalize all foreign businesses (at least those that made money) and make them state owned.

    I reckon American Oil companies didn't like losing their investments in South America very much, and rightly so. However, if a company doesn't recognize the risks of jumping into developing countries, then they aren't very good at strategic planning. I have never felt good about the fact that private American companies seem to believe that the American military exists to protect them in their overseas adventures.

    I guess the modern equivalent is the countries that have fallen into the hands of religious extremists. Of course, I don't reckon those jihadists will honor any trade agreements by their former governments anyway. Unless the think they can make a buck with lawsuits, I reckon.

    Isn't it funny how communists and religious fundamentalists claim to not be beholden to the almighty dollar... right up until they get the chance to extort millions or take over private companies assets.

    I suppose we also have to keep in mind that these provisions are most likely now included in trade agreements to feed lawyers.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 7:44 AM
  • What it does now is increase corporate control over everybody - especially large, multi-national corporate control. If a company has a division in any of the countries in a trade deal, they can work through that. Smaller companies or purely domestic companies don't have access.

    There's growing opposition to it. Brazil won't sign anything that includes ISDS. The TTIP (TPP for Trans-Atlantic countries, instead of Trans-Pacific) has just about been killed because of huge opposition in European populations, both to ISDS & to other things in the deal. Countries with highly developed court systems (like us) are running into a lot of question about why trade disputes should be settled in these corporate-friendly tribunals with no appeal and no responsiveness to citizens anywhere, instead of domestic courts.

    We don't have to accept this deal in order to trade.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 10:02 AM
  • There's a good discussion of it from last night's Thom Hartmann show here: about 15 minutes, 50 seconds in - between Hartmann and Dean Baker, a prominent economist who has a book he's just written that he talks up in the segment.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 10:28 AM
  • Thanks for the tip, Have.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 1:20 PM
  • Call Emanuel Cleaver's office (your US House Rep.) & ask how he stands on it, would you? I think he'll be opposed, but am not sure. I'd like to know. Also, I'd be interested to know how McCaskill stands on it. Hillary says she's against it & McCaskill is a big Hillary supporter - but Obama is pushing it & I'm wondering. I'm pretty sure Sen. Blunt (sp?) is for it, even though that would put him on the same side as Obama, God forbid.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 4:49 PM
  • It might also be interesting to ask Kander. He'll probably be cagey, since he's running, but maybe he'll actually answer.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Tue, Nov 1, 2016, at 5:02 PM
  • Seems like "What's your position on inclusion of ISDS in trade agreements?" would have made a great debate question.

    Instead we seem wrapped up tightly in any past dirt that can be dug up and flung at the opposition.

    I have to admit that I like what Trump is saying about trade, but I have little faith that his proposals: 1) are thought through at all; and 2) have any hope of getting through our dysfunctional congress as I reckon all manner of lobbyists will have their way with our senators and representatives on the subject of trade.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Nov 2, 2016, at 12:56 PM
  • Wouldn't have that been nice? I'm kind of depressed that most of the debate watchers wouldn't have even HEARD of ISDS, much less heard candidates discuss it.

    And let's not talk about climate change.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Nov 2, 2016, at 4:46 PM
  • Wouldn't have that been nice? I'm kind of depressed that most of the debate watchers wouldn't have even HEARD of ISDS, much less heard candidates discuss it.

    And we've hardly mentioned climate change - and neither has the new media.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Nov 2, 2016, at 4:47 PM
  • Sorry - "news media", not "new media"

    And by the way - where does Marshall get its water? I hope it's not the Missouri river. The stand-off at Standing Rock Reservation is partly about Native Americans trying to protect their sacred sites & their own water supply, but it's partly about trying to protect the Missouri River as a whole from the Dakota Access oil pipeline & possible oil spills. Obama has suggested re-routing the pipeline, which could take care of the sacred sites & reservation water, but doesn't do much for the Missouri. Kansas City draws their water from that river. What about Marshall?

    Another thing the news media isn't talking about. The only news I've seen on it is coming from Russian Television, Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now" & Facebook. Any interest in that here? It could seriously affect Marshall residents.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Wed, Nov 2, 2016, at 5:00 PM
  • Marshall's water comes from the Missouri, in a round-a-bout way, sort of.

    It comes from well fields drilled in the river bottoms up toward Malta Bend. I reckon it's river water filtered through millions of cubic yards of soil.

    I think it would take quite a while for toxins in the river water to make it to the wells, but I will admit I am not a geological expert.

    Isn't it ironic that we had a pipeline explosion in Alabama during the protests over the Dakota Access pipeline.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 7:51 AM
  • I look forward to the day people look to "sacred" and cemetery land for it is. A big waste of perfectly good space. Stop with the sacred stuff, your ancestors died long ago and nothing that happens to the land or rotting corpses will effect that.

    Same thing with funerals today, why do people pay thousands of dollars for them? The body is dead, it's gone it doesn't feel or care about anything. I hope when I die my wife just takes me from the morgue & finds a ditch to throw me in for free. Let the bugs & nature do their job. Then she can take the extra $10k from the life insurance & instead of wasting it on funeral she can go on a cruise or something.

    One day I hope we figure out the waste of space, dig up all the caskets & get rid of them & same with the stones and use the property for farming, business or residence. Or in the Dakota instance, put in a pipeline.

    I know this will be unpopular post, just never understood the obsession with death & dead people.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 9:37 AM
  • I'd never heard of ISDS, thank you for the education!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 9:38 AM
  • Almost nobody's heard of ISDS - and they're going to try to pass the TPP in the lame-duck session, right after the election. Call your House Rep. - NO on TPP!

    Re water - it's also ironic that they just came up with a settlement ranging from $100 to $150 million for the chemical spill near Charleston, W. VA in 2014 that made Charleston's water undrinkable & not recommended for showering, etc for at least 5 days. Around 300,000 people were affected. If everybody got an even share, that's about $330-500/person. That doesn't take into account businesses closed (with employees losing pay) or medical care for people affected (10 were hospitalized - how much did that cost?). Luckily it wasn't life-threatening & didn't have ongoing health consequences that they know about. If you divide it according to level of loss, I'm guessing that people who just (ha!) suffered no potable water will get almost nothing.

    Did they share in the profits gained by using the chemical near the intake for their water? No. They only pay the costs.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 10:34 AM
  • Also - OS, I understand how you feel about cemeteries & sacred sites. You might want to sign something now saying you want to be cremated, or buried naturally, if you don't want to contribute to that problem. Here's a link to an information site about natural burial:

    But a lot of people have religious beliefs that include special protection for burial grounds. Violating their beliefs in order to gain fossil fuels (and lots of profit, I might add) seems strange, especially since fossil fuels are so dangerous to the planet. Protection of profit isn't in the Constitution. Protection of religious belief is.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 12:01 PM
  • I actually already have a will written out that states I'm to be creamated and there is to be no funeral of any kind. I actually also added if there is a cheaper version than creamation I want that lol.

    Most of the things humans do are dangerous to the planet. Typing on something that was built mostly using things dug up out the ground using all kinds of bad things. Roads you drive on plow right through nature. I agree fosil fuels can be much worse, but same time we still need them. We need them greatly!

    Has the supreme court made any statement on this? I'm assuming what they are doing is perfectly legal or else they wouldn't be allowed to do it. If the pipeline is perfectly legal and they've been given the rights to the land they are using, than I see nothing wrong.

    There are limits to religious freedom, nobody will be letting a voodoo priest to sacrifice a person will they? Someone who wants to bring back the ancient Aztec empire won't let them skin people alive as part of their rituals will they? Like all our freedoms & rights granted under the constitution, there are limits.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 1:52 PM
  • Congrats on having dealt with your remains already. I should have figured you'd have the foresight.

    Re legality - the Standing Rock Sioux are challenging the legality of the process that allowed permits for the pipeline to be issued. The Supreme Court hasn't ruled, it's still in the lower courts - but the company is continuing to build, claiming that the challenged permits are valid. By the time there is a definitive judicial decision, they're hoping it'll be a moot point, since the pipeline will already be built.

    I don't think they have the permit to cross the river yet, though. One reason for all the opposition is to keep them from getting it.

    Also - you know, lots of things are perfectly legal until we take another look and decide that they shouldn't be. Should it be legal to send poisonous, dangerous materials through pipelines near water sources - or put poisons into rivers? Do permits adequately cover the risk and damage to surrounding communities? Do we have to wait until great damage is done & then argue over whose fault it is? Ask the people of Flint, MI, or Marshall, MI (town nearest to the tar-sands oil spill that went into the Kalamazoo river - which has cost 1.21 billion for a clean-up that still isn't done). What do you think? I think not.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 2:45 PM
  • I think if that's the best way to get it where it needs to go than yes I'm fine with building it by rivers. Now I agree it needs to be regulated & regularly inspected to keep the chances of problem to it's minimum. Is there a chance even with all safe guards something could happen, sure there is. But there are always those chances no matter what you do.

    So unless you want to stop progress completely, I'm fine saying I'm cool with this. I've been to that area, it's beautiful country. Will still be beautiful company after the pipe.

    If it's legal for them than I'd keep building too. At this point if I was them I'd keep doing it just to **** off the Indians who are out there lol. I'd have some sign out that said even the baseball team can't win just to be a smart a##.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • Who says that's the best way to get it there? Who says getting it there is the best way for us to get energy? And what about the fact that doing it the way we're doing it has made EXXON/MOBIL (and the rest of the fossil fuel industry) the most profitable enterprises in human history - for themselves and their investors? Doesn't that have something to do with why we make the choices we do? And don't we, as citizens of a democracy, have a right to make the rules they have to follow? Why not protect ourselves?

    I'm not against progress - I just want to know where we're progressing to before I support going there.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Thu, Nov 3, 2016, at 8:24 PM
  • Well first, do they not have the right to sell their product based on the demand of our country? Nobody makes you drive a car or use petroleum products. They got a **** good product that there is an insanely high demand for, we all wish we could have gotten in on that gold mine! So funny when we forget rich people are just as much a citizen with just as many rights as the poor people when we talk about who has rights for this or that.

    As for the rest of your questions, who says it's not the best way to get it there? You think they'd do something expensive & inefficient if they had a cheaper more efficient way to do it? These are profit kings by the way, so making more money is usually something they like to do.

    As of right now, yes it is the cheapest most efficient way to get energy. When someone comes up with a way to get the production fossil fuels give for the same price or at least comparable, than you know I'm in. How do these Indians feel about having land full of windmills or solar panels as far as the eye can see?

    I'm all for new & better ways to do energy. That would be progress, which I'm a fan of. But until that is found, this is what we've got. Sorry Dakota Indians, sometimes life isn't fair and the real world is a kick in the nuts and you can't hide from it on your reservations & pretend it's not there. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it really sucks, but either way like the song says, "That's life".

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Nov 4, 2016, at 8:39 AM
  • Do you really think that rich people have fewer rights in our society than poor people? Or that there is any danger of that happening?

    The demand for gasoline was influenced quite a bit by the decision to spend loads of taxpayer money on an interstate highway system. I'm not saying that was a bad decision, I'm just saying that these things aren't ordained by God. Public policy choices have a lot to do with it, too.

    And in a democracy, those are our decisions. Do we discount risks to water drinkers and air breathers so that we can all drive gasoline engines? Or do we use public policy to drive different choices - like better mass transit, or an infrastructure for re-charging cars and massive construction of alternative sources of electricity? Up to us.

    When you ask if I think "they'd do something expensive & inefficient if they had a cheaper more efficient way to do it", it depends a lot who "they" is, and who profits from how things are done. If it's the fossil fuel industry trying to keep us bound to the current system, I'd say - of course they would. They stand to lose billions of dollars if we convert to another kind of energy. They're in the same position as the buggy makers of old - but much worse because they've invested fortunes in rights to the fossil fuel still in the ground and technology to get it out. Do they have some divine right to the billion they expect in profits if we decide the risk to us is too high? I would say not.

    So now who's standing in the way of progress? Why not ask the Native Americans how they feel about solar panels & windmills? Those things stand little chance of poisoning the water - I doubt they'd run into the same kind of opposition.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Nov 4, 2016, at 11:50 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 4, 2016, at 12:50 PM
  • "Or do we use public policy to drive different choices - like better mass transit, or an infrastructure for re-charging cars and massive construction of alternative sources of electricity? Up to us."

    You are 100% correct! And these are actually good ideas. But they also are insanely expensive and would cost taxpayers probably into the trillions to do. In a climate of politics we have today where nobody agrees on anything in DC or Jeff City for that matter, exactly what are the odds you give to 1) people signing up for trillions in tax dollar increases or 2) in politicians moving money around to spare up some money so it's only billions of tax dollars & then the majority of tax payers agree to that tax increase.

    I agree it's a great idea and would love to see it. But I just can't get past the reality of the situation in terms of it's feasibility.

    And no I don't think any one has different rights, but I think people perceive it that way or desire it to be that way. Or at least that's the tone you gave when you spoke about Exxon/Mobile making as much money as possible for themselves & their investors. Oh and also having jobs for hundreds of thousands of people. How many people would be out of a job if the pipeline stops? How about the local economy when they lose a few thousand out of town workers who would have been staying for months. Maybe the Indians don't like it, but what about the land owners around them that were looking forward to getting good money from the oil guys for their land, money that could have paid bills. The Indians want to make it seem simple, it's just about them & their little piece of land, but it's not just about them. It's never that simple & is very selfish & short sited to think it is.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Nov 4, 2016, at 1:13 PM
  • WWII was insanely expensive. Some people say that the war was what ultimately ended the depression.

    The interstate highway system was insanely expensive. Taking on more debt and building it expanded our economy and worked out pretty well for us.

    When you talk about jobs, you always have to think about jobs created by alternatives as well. Does it create more jobs to build and run a pipeline, or to build, maintain and run passenger trains? What about windmills & solar panels - they don't build & install themselves, either. Realistic alternatives are in use - Denmark's wind farms supplied 140% of demand last year, according to Bloomberg News. Who put up all those windmills? How many jobs would it create to build charging stations for electric cars across the country? It would be useful to look at who gets more tax advantages from us - the fossil fuel industry or alternative energy. Conservatives yell a lot about any kind of advantage the government gives alternative energy, but they're pretty quiet about tax breaks for fossil fuel.

    I don't know what you mean when you talk about the way I wrote about EXXON/MOBIL & how much money they want to make - so I'll just say: I fully expect them to try make as much money as possible. That's probably in their corporate charter, and the top management can probably be sued by the stockholders if they don't try to maximize profits. I think that's their legal obligation, as a corporation. What I don't understand is why there's something wrong with MY seeing it that way. It sounds as if you think I'm supposed to see them in a different light - as job creators, maybe, or community benefactors. When they employ people, I don't think they do it as a community service. I think they do it because they have to in order to get work done - and they pay as little as possible for it. Why would they do anything else?

    I'm convinced that they look after their interests quite ably - and I'd better look after mine, because I'm deluded if I think they will. And I think that's true for the Standing Rock Sioux as well. I just don't see why the assets of the government (the police) should be on the side of the pipeline company here.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Nov 4, 2016, at 5:27 PM
  • Finally. Get out there and VOTE!!!!

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 9:04 AM
  • Help end the disaster that is the divide in Washington, vote 3rd party!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 11:17 AM
  • Hoping to see strong voter turnout

    -- Posted by OMG! on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 1:56 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 7:13 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 7:27 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 7:59 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 8:51 PM

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 8, 2016, at 11:24 PM
  • Don't be so overdramatic News. It will be just fine like it always is. He has to answer to congress so not like he can just walk in & start doing anything he wants.

    We'll be fine for 4 years and if people want change than they can do this all over again. Hopefully they'll figure out Hillary is a lost cause and let her move on.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 9:09 AM
  • This must be what if feels like to wake up in Vegas with a hang-over, wedding ring, and stranger in bed with you.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 10:14 AM
  • News,

    Get rid of the snakes and rabbits and I would consider joining

    -- Posted by desert Rat on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 10:27 AM
  • newsacross....we're also thanking God that you don't live in America. You'd be just one more pink a$$ liberal to deal with.

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 11:40 AM
  • President aside cause I didn't care to much on that one.

    Very glad all the Amendments we had on the ballot passed!!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 12:52 PM
  • Ummmm... not all of them passed.

    Lisa Simpson 2020!

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 1:05 PM
  • Ah good call Smart, the two tobacco tax deals failed. Last I'd seen last night they were winning with decent margin. Thanks for double checking me!

    Those where probably the two least important to me, I don't smoke so didn't bother me either way but so I voted yes cause wasn't my money ha-ha. But glad the other ones did, they were important.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 2:26 PM
  • Statement from Missouri Voter Protection Coalition on Amendment 6

    We are extremely disappointed that Missourians no longer have their right to vote protected in

    our state's constitution. The passage of Amendment 6 is unprecedented as the first effort in the

    nation to strip a constitutionally protected right to vote from a state constitution.

    "Legislators pushed forward the effort to pass a confusing amendment in order to implement a

    restrictive photo ID law they knew was unconstitutional," said Missouri State Conference of the

    NAACP President Nimrod Chapel. "We will work with the community to make sure the rights of

    Missouri voters are restored."

    Missouri now joins the ranks of 17 other states that have put restrictions on voting since the

    U.S. Supreme Court gutted a key provision of the Voting Rights Act in 2013. The 2016

    presidential elections were the first in 50 years without the full protections of the Voting Rights

    Act in place.

    "The tactics of voter suppression laws have changed since the days of literacy tests and poll

    taxes, but the outcome of making it harder for people to vote remains the same," said Denise

    Lieberman, Advancement Project Senior Attorney and coordinator of the Missouri Voter

    Protection Coalition.

    For more than a decade, the three dozen organizations of the Missouri Voter Protection

    Coalition, which includes civil rights advocates, faith leaders, community groups, the labor

    movement, and legal experts, have been fighting to block restrictive photo ID laws in the state.

    We will not stop now.

    "It is tragic that the Missouri constitution has been stripped of its voter protections," said AFLCIO

    President Mike Louis. "This marks a step backwards for Missouri and our country."

    Missouri's photo ID requirement could still be subject to legal challenge under other provisions

    of state and federal law, including the United States Constitution. Legal advocates with the

    coalition are examining all avenues of redress to protect the rights of Missouri voters from this

    restrictive and discriminatory Photo ID law.

    "As educators, we teach the value of fairness," said Missouri NEA Executive Director DeeAnn

    Aull. "Sadly, Amendment 6 is unfair to hundreds of thousands of Missourians who will be kept

    from the ballot box."

    Many groups -- from advocacy organizations to legal watchdogs -- will continue to work to

    challenge this new, harmful voting restriction.

    "The Missouri Sierra Club is disappointed Missouri voters chose to approve Amendment 6,

    which will make it harder for many Missourians to vote in future elections. We applaud the work

    of our coalition partners and will be undeterred in continuing our work."

    If you are an organization or individual interested in working with us to restore voting rights to

    the Missouri Constitution, please contact one of our coalition partners.

    "The right to vote is fundamental to our democracy," said Jeffrey Mittman, ACLU of Missouri

    Executive Director. "We will work together with the community to find the best way to restore

    voting rights to all Missourians."

    Amendment 6 will go into effect in 30 days after today's election. The state's photo ID law -- also

    known as Missouri House Bill 1631 -- becomes effective June 1, 2017.

    Missouri Voter Protection Coalition: AARP Missouri, ACLU of Missouri, Advancement Project, AFL-CIO, AFSCME,

    American Federation of Teachers (AFT), A. Philip Randolph Institute, Coalition of Black Trade Unionists (CBTU),

    Communities Creating Opportunity, Communications Workers of America (CWA), Delta Sigma Theta, Empower

    Missouri, Jewish Community Relations Council of St. Louis (JCRC), Metropolitan Congregations United (MCU),

    Missouri Faith Voices, Missouri Immigrant and Refugee Advocates (MIRA), Missouri Jobs With Justice, Missouri

    League of Women Voters, Missouri Organizing and Voter Engagement Collaborative (MOVE), Missouri Rural Crisis

    Center, Missouri State Conference of the NAACP, NARAL, National Council of Jewish Women -- St. Louis (NCJW),

    National Education Association (NEA), Organization for Black Struggle (OBS), Paraquad, Peace Economy Project,

    Planned Parenthood, Progress Missouri, PROMO, Service Employees International Union (SEIU), Sierra Club,

    United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW), Working America, and What U Can Do.

    -- Posted by CWilli on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 2:27 PM
  • I'm still a little confused on how Amendment 6 restricts people? I mean unless you are calling people lazy, cheap or uneducated. All it's saying is you need a photo ID to verify you are who you are. It's pretty simple to get one of those, just go to license office, pay what, $20 or $30 and you're done. So if you say it restricts people, you're either saying they are to lazy to get to the license office or too poor to be able to afford $20 or $30 one time (not like they expire every year). Now that to me seems pretty insulting to whomever you are talking about. I say if you want to vote it's pretty easy process, I mean the vast majority of us already have this covered. So if you are that lazy or love your McD's to much to save up $30 once every 5 or 6 years, than clearly voting isn't that important to you anyway.

    Saw plenty of people on twitter mad that it said they had already voted, well maybe if someone had to show photo id whoever stole their vote wouldn't have been allowed. Seems like pretty simple request that we have proof you are who you are on election day.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 2:36 PM
  • I do indeed enjoy my world, newsacross, and wouldn't trade it for yours. Trump was not "my boy" but he was my choice yesterday. The truth is, and everyone knows this, there are very few people whom Donald Trump could beat in a presidential election. In all their bumbling, liberal glory the Democrats managed to provide just such an opponent. My concern with America was not with economics. Those things have a way of working themselves out.

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 3:07 PM
  • I'm doing just fine. Thanks for your concern. Different people have different definitions of paradise. I know nothing of your particular paradise, but as I said earlier, I wouldn't trade mine for it.

    A wise man once told me..."you can have money stacked to the ceiling but the size of the crowd at your funeral will depend on how you treated people...and the weather".

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 4:10 PM
  • I'm doing just fine. Thanks for your concern. Different people have different definitions of paradise. I know nothing of your particular paradise, but as I said earlier, I wouldn't trade mine for it.

    A wise man once told me..."you can have money stacked to the ceiling but the size of the crowd at your funeral will depend on how you treated people...and the weather".

    And as for work...I haven't been without a job for a single day since I graduated high school in 1971. I plan to retire soon after spending the last 26 years of my "career" with a good company. All is well here so far. Should I feel the need to worry about something I think I'll pick health instead of wealth.

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Nov 9, 2016, at 4:16 PM
  • Question for you guys. Most of you who regularly post here are much smarter about politics than myself & most regular people. You are well informed & know the issues.

    How do you guys explain Trump winning? Cause I have a couple ideas, but it's just from avg Joe's perspective. I was wondering from really political people, why do you think Trump did what nobody (myself included) believed he'd do?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 8:10 AM
  • Let's start with the fact that 35% of contemporary Americans would still vote Republican even if Ted Nugent or "Lucifer in the flesh" (I quote John Boehner regarding Ted Cruz) was the candidate.

    From there, it's up to the great undecided's in the middle. I have been surprised in the past how many Gen X'ers I knew that never voted. Their response was "I don't care about politics." Apparently suddenly they woke up and entered the fray totally unaware during this election.

    From there it's an easy answer.

    Most everyone underestimated the cluelessness of Gen X when it comes to politics, history, and how our government and society really work.

    The 30 somethings who grew up watching Trump on The Apprentice apparently really think he knows something about leadership and organizational behavior.

    What The Donald actually knows is how to sell real estate by stroking the buyers ego and telling him what he wants to hear. He is not a self made billionaire, he inherited his fathers' fortune. At least he hasn't lost it all like many of his peers.

    I refer to that as being a good con man, I reckon Donald would say he is a good salesman.

    I reckon it's possible there was too much influence on society by the TV show Mad Men, as well. Misogynistic, racist, country club frat boys should be admired and make the best leaders, right?

    I reckon lessons of history have to be learned the hard way. Like someone much smarter than me once said "that's the problem with history, it keeps repeating its self."

    News, in all his smug arrogance, is right about one thing, trickle-down economics doesn't work. Pandering to the supposed "job creators" does not build a health economy.

    Government regulation of capitalism is absolutely necessary or the system will destroy its self. Read the book "The Big Short" or at least watch the movie of the same name for a fine example of what that looks like. Again, that book and movie are not fiction, it happened.

    Redistribution of wealth is necessary in any system, it's a fact of economics, not an option or a theory. Public policy is the only tool in the government's toolbox to do that with, isn't it?

    I reckon we will see how this shakes out.

    Trumps "Infrastructure Improvement Plan" is right out of the Bill Clinton playbook from the early 90's. It will provide some short term economic stimulus at the cost of a higher national debt. I give it a 50-50 chance that he can get any further debt increases through congress.

    Trump has also chosen to surround himself with some pretty interesting characters. America with Rudy Giulani as it's Attorney General is going to be a nightmare for many folks. More private prisons, more people in jail, a crack down on the blossoming Marijuana industry, and the government will be violating your rights to liberty and privacy in entirely new ways. But only if you aren't a wealthy white man.

    I sure hope I'm wrong, but experience and history seem to be indicating we are headed into a world of constant global war and an America of constant class warfare.

    Y'all know that Hitler was elected on a platform of Nationalism and German Exceptionalism, right? He demonized certain classes of people in his country as being the source of all the problems. He promoted anti-immigration policies, elimination of trade pacts with other countries, and that a strong military would make Germany Great Again.

    Sound at all familiar?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 9:58 AM
  • I certainly hope the American public will pay as much attention to what happens in their government under the new administration as they did to Crooked Hillary's emails. Wait, I hope they pay more attention, because I am fairly sure they have no idea what was wrong with her emails, just that they were "bad....very bad."

    I also hope he is held to the same standards as Obama in implementing his plans to make America Great Again.

    For example when he proposes deficit spending for infrastructure improvement, I expect to see the same kind of backlash Obama suffered with his economic stimulus plan that got us out of the Bush Recession.

    I don't hold much hope that will happen, but hey, trying to stay positive here. Here's a brief rundown of Trumps campaign promises.

    -Stop the Islamic State in 30 days.

    -Lower health care costs by repealing Obamacare.

    (It's not the repeal America should be looking for, it's lowered health care costs that America needs to pay attention to and see if it occurs.)

    -Fix the VA and "start taking care of our millitary."

    (This was promised to happen in his first 100 days.)

    -Withdraw from NAFTA within 6 months.

    -Build 2000 mile long wall along the Mexican border that Mexico pays for.

    -Implement 'heavy' surveillance of Mosques.

    -Ban Muslim immigrants from entering the USA.

    -Provide the "biggest tax cuts since Ronald Reagan."

    (See pretty much any information on the ineffectiveness of trickle-down economic policy because, btw, the only people to get tax cuts from Reagan were corporations and the very top earners. I predict a big fat recession about year 3 of Trump, maybe earlier.)

    -Eliminate "every unnecessary job killing regulation."

    (I am fairly sure Donald doesn't even know what those are and why they matter.)

    I don't believe Donald will not be much involved in running the country. He can't, as he has no clue how to.

    It will be the new Republican party exerting it's will onto the people while Trump flies around the country giving speeches about how great he is, how great America is, and how great a job his staff of partisan hacks and conspiracy theorists are doing.

    His believers will lap that up while America takes a slow turn toward the Jim Crow south.

    Can't wait to see the media track how many times Donald plays golf, as it seemed to be a big concern about Obama. I guess we won't have to worry about Donald spending too much time on the basketball court though, like Obama, so whew, glad we got that **** stopped.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 10:32 AM
  • newsacross...the wise man who made that comment was my father. I don't remember exactly when he said it, probably around 68 or 69. I've thought of it often and still marvel at it's accuracy.

    He's been gone for 30 years but I'm sure that won't prevent you from posting a suitable insult.

    -- Posted by outsider on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 AM
  • newsacross...the wise man who made that comment was my father. I don't remember exactly when he said it, probably around 68 or 69. I've thought of it often and still marvel at it's accuracy. As for the context in which he spoke, I really don't remember the exact situation but I'm sure it was in regards to someone like yourself who is wrapped up in some sort of monetary wealth.He's been gone for 30 years but I'm sure that won't prevent you from posting a suitable insult.

    As for my comment of worrying about health instead of wealth...I wasn't talking about health insurance. I was talking about health.

    -- Posted by outsider on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 11:58 AM
  • Well the Electoral Collage did it again! This Constitution has to be amended! This law is so out dated, it's insane! This is the 5th time this has happened in our History? The Popular Vote means nothing ,unless it is amended!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 1:24 PM
  • I reckon we agree on one thing, Outsider. Health is much more important than wealth.

    I figure the health care industry knows that about people, so they happily drain your wallet as much as they possibly can.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 2:50 PM
  • First off I agree with Jo that the electoral college should be done away with. Of course I'm sure had Hillary won in the exact same fashion there wouldn't be nearly the outrage against it that there is today. But, still we aren't the same country we were 240 years ago and I think we can handle the pressures our founding fathers didn't think we could.

    "Short explanation: America is WAY more racist, sexist and xenophobic than you think." this is the exact type of thinking that is the reason people got the election wrong. Nobody knew how many people wanted to vote Trump cause nobody could admit it w/out being branded. It's why racial issues are only getting worse instead of better because nobody can have an open honest discussion about it. I mean you don't really expect to change peoples minds or get them to see things your way if all you do is call them names do you? That's like a religious person trying to convert you by calling you names & saying you'll go to hell if you don't change. Not the best sales pitch.

    I think you are right about GenX. GenX was perfectly happy to sit back and just go with the flow, until everything got thrown in our face and we got blamed for everything. We were the last generation of people raised the now old fashioned way of, treat others how you want to be treated, sticks & stones will break your bones but words can't hurt me, and take responsibility for your own actions. The generation today is the complete opposite. They think the world owes them. They just want what they deserve & their opinions and if you don't like it FU. And it's not my fault I'm in jail or poor, it's your fault for holding me back. And frankly, my generation is sick of the temper tantrums of whiny little kids.

    For sure each party has their hardcores that would vote for a dog if it was the party candidate. (insert CB joke here about dog being better than trump to prove my point ha-ha).

    It will be interesting to see how Trump stands by what he said. He's already softened his tone in each interview since he won. Like most new presidents I think he'll realize when he walks in the door that he doesn't have the power he thought or the logistics to get done what he said. But he'll try some for sure. Obamacare as we know it is dead. That is one thing all republicans agree on, so I don't see how it lives. Now what replaces it, I don't know. Long as my premiums go back down & they take out the dumb tax penalty for not having it, than I'm good!

    I think one factor I just read about that nobody mentioned, was how bad the Democrat turn out was. Hillary got half the votes that Obama did in 08' while the Republican candidate in the last three elections have all gotten roughly the same amount. So I mean, where did those other votes for Obama go? Clearly they didn't go to Trump, cause he got roughly same votes as Romney did. I think a reason you guys forgot was the arrogance of the Democratic party. They ran a horrible candidate. Instead of letting her do what she's good at, which is be a politician, they spent the whole campaign just slinging mud right with Trump. They basically played Trumps game, and I don't think anyone would argue that when it comes to the PR & mud slinger game, there aren't many better than Trump.

    Purely from an outsiders view, when I watched those two. I saw a man who really didn't give a crap. No matter how much they made fun of him or threw mud at him, he just shook it off and moved on. While Hillary looked ******, had weak comebacks and looked vindictive like she was just trying to **** him off and she was getting more ****** off that it wasn't making him mad.

    They both were far left & far right on topics. So if you're a middle person like me neither was good. I mean I want immigration reform, do I want to put up a big wall & deport 11 million people tomorrow, no, but I want more reform than Hillary's open door policy. So I'd lean towards Trump. I want less Obamacare cause it's done nothing but screw me, so that automatically means Republican. Now I'm for abortion & planned parenthood, so I'd have to go Democrat for that one. Guns I'm the middle, I don't mind more gun laws but same time don't want to make it impossible to get one. So really that's a toss up. I'm tired of being the nice guy to every country in the world & wouldn't mind throwing our weight around a little. Don't want to start wars, but same time don't want to start acting like we don't deserve the respect of the world. So from that standpoint, I tend to lean republican. Fixing the VA I think both sides are for. If either one of the two candidates had just been a little more down the middle instead of both being far winged, I think that person would have won in a landslide. As it is, lots of people are tired of politics and tired of whiny brats they saw on TV going for Hillary so they said screw it, both are horrible, but I'd at least like to see something new & not the same ole boring junk, plus I don't mind seeing the whiny brats get ******.

    Or maybe it was simply the ultimate troll job!!

    Can we please stop with the Hitler crap people? I mean is he really the only person in history to run on those platforms besides Trump? That was a different time and a different era & a different place. Germans were ****** off at the world for screwing them over after WW1. They were in a depression not scene since 1929 & they didn't have that strong of a government at all. The fact Hitler tried an armed revolt & was out of jail in just a couple years shows how weak that place was. If he tried that today he'd never see the light of day. Before he went full blown psycho, Hitler was actually a great leader. Rebuilt German country & was even Time man of the year & noble prize winner. If Trump is that Hitler, than we'd be in good shape. Now after that Hitler went bat **** crazy & the country was so scared to go back to ****, that they went along like sheep to the slaughter. Here in the US, if Trump decides to go bat **** crazy, he won't last a month because even his own party wouldn't stand for it. Not only is he not the same man, we are not even in the same discussion with being the same country so can we all just agree to drop the Hitler & Nazi ignorant and lazy comparison already?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 2:52 PM
  • The country was founded as the UNITED STATES of America so until they shorten the name to just AMERICA, the electoral college is needed. It insures that all STATES have a degree of input in determining the president and that a candidate would at least have a regional appeal of some sort, rather than being the favorite of any one area or group. It's unfortunate when it doesn't line up with the popular vote but it's fair, nonetheless. Clinton won the popular vote by 200,000 but defeated Trump by 2.5M votes in California and 1.5M in New York. If this particular election would have been decided by popular vote alone, this fact would have made 26 state's voting irrelevant. As large and diverse as our country is, all states need to have a say.

    -- Posted by outsider on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 3:40 PM
  • I think you mean all People! Not because of how many Representative's they have in the State!

    -- Posted by Jo on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 4:45 PM
  • So u use it to point out the worst case scenario if any scenario as a scare tactic. When someone is dumb enough to be scared of it they are name called. Man I can't believe people voted against your party with great spokesman like you.

    Yeah my generation was Butts. I mean we got whipped if we talked back to adults. And we got it by those adults & our parents didn't freak out, they thanked those adults then whipped our butts again. Our only safe space was your bed when I slept at night. We kept score in sports, even tee ball. If u lost, u lost. U didn't get a ribbon for losing. Nobody changed anything just cause u didn't like it. If large group agreed, maybe. But just u alone, shut up & sit down.

    Millineals are the weakest generation in history.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 7:50 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 9:43 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Thu, Nov 10, 2016, at 9:50 PM
  • Old School, getting your butt whipped constantly may have been your experience, but it wasn't mine - and I'll bet I'm a lot older than you. I'm sorry you had such a tiny bit of safe space, but I'm not sure it makes you a better person than me - or makes your opinion more valid than mine.

    As for competition for young people - try getting into college (and paying for it - college costs have gone up 1,120%, that's X12, since 1978 according to Bloomberg) or getting a job now, especially one with good benefits. It's tremendously harder now than it used to be. They're not getting any presents.

    And re the electoral college, Outsider - if the citizens of California were represented equally in the electoral college with the citizens of Wyoming, they'd have around 200 electors. If the aim is to protect people in small states (or states with small populations), I think they're over-doing it. The Democrats have won the popular vote in four out of the last five elections and taken power only twice. To be Trumpish about it, what we're seeing here is NOT sore losers, but sore WINNERS.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 8:13 AM
  • Not real sure what you mean in your post, Oldschool, but I think you might want to consider counseling or rehab, I'm not sure which is more appropriate.

    So how long until America is great again, Eieio?

    After the KKK marches this weekend to celebrate "their guy" winning the presidency?

    Once Sara Palin is in charge of the Department of Energy, which is responsible for nuclear weapons program?

    Or maybe when Giuliani is Attorney General and we enact stop and frisk of all black people everywhere? Well or anybody the Trumpsters don't like.

    And on that topic, I guess we'll be great again when Omarosa Manigault starts checking folks off that hit list of enemies of the campaign that they have been compiling. She's part of his inner circle and has publicly stated that they have kept a list of enemies and plan to get even. Yep, that'll make America great again, won't it?

    All that'll bring about peace and harmony in America for sure.

    Fiscally, you better get ready. Here comes the return of the Reagan Era, when the president was a figurehead who had no clue how to run the country. He just flew around giving speeches telling people what they wanted to hear. So our country was run by the neo-cons, who brought us a quadrupling of the national debt in 12 years and recessions that were the worst since the Great Depression, up until the Bush Recession the same folks brought us in 2007.

    The neo-cons? That's Cheney, Rumsfeld, Baker, Weinberger for you Gen'xers, the guys who brought you the Iraq war and a collapsed economy in 2007 under Little Bush.

    Yep, the national debt went from just under $1 trillion dollars in 1981 to just over $4 trillion dollars at the end of Bush senior's term in office in 1992. Even Obama couldn't match that rate of deficit spending.

    So why is it, again, that all you folks can't wait to get back to Reaganomics?

    Tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations and gutting of social programs. If y'all would pay a little attention to actual history, not the made up version on Breitbart or Fox, or that comes out of the mouths of your chosen leaders, you might not be so quick to hope for the "good old days under Reagan."

    Y'all also have never seen the kind of inflation that occurred in the 80's in your adult lifetimes either. Get ready because once the neo-cons get a hold of the fed and treasury again, that's going to come roaring back.

    The 2020 campaign slogan by the challengers is already set. "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" I hope I am wrong but put a low probability on it.

    You also might want to keep in mind that nobody likes a prick winner even more than a sore loser.

    Let me say it for you, though. BENGHAZI!!!!! EMAIL!!!!!!

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 8:14 AM
  • Y'all going to go on some righteous indignation rant now about how a lack of family values are what's wrong with America?

    I hope so, because you sure didn't elect the family values candidate this time, did you?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 9:12 AM
  • This is getting good. Anyone have any popcorn?

    -- Posted by What the f...... on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 9:21 AM
  • Welll...hmmmm, errrr

    I guess maybe I need to stay away from this site for a few weeks; getting a bit graphic.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 10:38 AM
  • I remember being shocked when George HW Bush talked about kicking Saddam's butt - and thinking it was a kind of tasteless (or maybe "low" HA!) way for a US President to talk. I feel quaint at this point.

    My grandmother used to wear white gloves and a hat to take me to lunch at Humphrey's on the square (we walked there, by the way - no cars involved). I thought she was from another planet. I understand her a lot better now.

    -- Posted by Have to say on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 2:36 PM
  • I was stating millineals are the weakest generation not Gen X. I am Gen X, well aware of it. Probably tail end of it. So there is your fact check CB :)

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 3:47 PM
  • I reckon the cons will be pretty psyched when they figure out this guy is right. Impeach Trump and you have the ideal homophobic, Super Christian, far right wing president, Mike Pence.

    Brilliant politics! No wonder Reince Priebus jumped on board the Trump train.

    Now....was it a plan from the start or a happy accident?

    Irregardless, I believe Lichtman is on the mark with his prediction.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 11, 2016, at 8:54 PM
  • It appears that the Trumpkins have brought reality TV attitudes from "The Apprentice" to the White House. I hope all the Trumpster voters are enjoying the show.

    So who is going to run the Executive Branch, folks? The "I sure married well" son-in-law? Corey "what's in it for me?" Lewandowski? Champion of liars and conspiracy theorists Bannon? Newt "the worlds biggest hypocrite" Gingrich? "I've never had an actual job in my life" Priebus?

    (You'll note that I have learned from our president elect that everyone needs a demeaning nickname in order to communicate effectively.)

    I reckon when they get done with all the backstabbing and clamoring for The Donald's attention, it'll be Mike Pence, who Donald can't fire or replace.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Nov 12, 2016, at 8:10 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Sun, Nov 13, 2016, at 7:18 PM
  • If it's as bad as you guys are saying than in 4 years it will go democrat & you can guys can save the world lol.

    You all seem to think the United States is going to become extinct in a couple years just because of one man. I thought we had a bunch of atheist in here, since when do you guys believe in an anti-Christ?

    On the flip side, I'm almost wanting to see the electoral voters actually screw this whole place up & actually vote in Hillary just to truly watch some stuff burn. Can you imagine the storm that would cause? You want your civil war revolution CB, there you would have it!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 8:50 AM
  • As they don't seem interested at all in learning the lessons of history or economics for themselves, or listening to others who might know a whole lot more about society and politics than themselves, I reckon Gen X is now going to get to learn those same lessons the hard way.

    Hope you have some alternate plan for health insurance for your kids, Oldschool. Medicaid cuts are on the way.

    Maybe you can rely on the kindness of strangers, divine providence, or some such other myth promoted by the right.

    Forget four years, is America better off than it was one week ago? I reckon if you are a member of the KKK, your answer is "Hell yeah!"

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 9:54 AM

    Finally, those millionaires in congress can make working people who have paid into these programs for 40 or 50 years wait even longer to get that pittance of a payment from social security.

    Yep, that seems fair.

    And make sure you don't miss the part of the article, and Trumps campaign promise, regarding Medicaid.

    "...big spending cuts Trump has endorsed-- a House Republican plan to cut Medicaid spending by $500 billion...."

    Found that insurance for the kids yet, Oldschool?

    Wait, maybe the conservatives who now control 100% of Missouri's government are going to help you out. I wouldn't hole my breath though.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 10:16 AM
  • Ha-ha, you guys are so **** paranoid and worried instead of just figuring out how to deal with things.

    Nope I don't have a plan for my kids. If Medicaid gets taken away I'll figure something out or they just won't have it. I've gone without it before, my wife has gone years without and the world hasn't ended for us. Now no I won't be happy about it, but last time I checked whining doesn't solve any problems, actions do.

    I never expected to get social security anyway so for my generation it's really no big deal. Now I do agree it blows for people in my parents generation who have been planning retirement based on their SS benefits. Those are the people it sucks for, but hey those are the most people who voted for Trump so kind of your own fault. Time to go to a plan B and figure something else out. May have to work longer, may have to pay lot closer attention to your 401K. I don't know, just have to adapt.

    I'm not sure why people are so ****** about the wall & deporting people. I mean a wall is just a wall, I agree somewhat childish but hey, it's just a wall.

    Last time I checked it was against the law to be in this country illegally. It's even more against the law to be in this country illegally & commit other crimes. Also last time I checked, the punishment for these laws is deportation. So he's actually doing what the law says, seems fairly straight forward.

    You're right CB, the electoral college was created for this reason. To bad the Democrats didn't pay attention to the country and realize what the real issues were and where the votes actually mattered. That part of the government did not do their job, all they did was drive more people to Trump. You look back, it really was one of the most ignorant cocky campaigns in history.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 11:13 AM
  • I'm curious to know old school, if your so "action oriented" then why do your kids need Medicare in the first place? Why aren't you providing for your own family?

    Also when you say a "wall is just a wall, remember that 75 years ago they though a ghetto was just a ghetto.

    -- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 12:43 PM
  • Well first I never said my kids "needed Medicare". Hey if they are just going to give money away like candy at Halloween, I'm not to good to take it. If you walk by a $10 bill laying on the ground do you pick it up or keep walking?

    Please explain to me WTF, why you personally think a wall is so bad. My point of view is it's government building project which would add jobs & economy to the area. It only hurts illegals because legal immigrants come through the front door. Will it completely stop illegals, of course not, nothing is full proof. But it would help. I do not know where the money is coming from yet so I will agree I'm not all in because I want to know that first. But as long as the money comes from ok places than I'm in for it. Obviously some have places they would be ok with more than others, so if where the money comes from is the issue, than I can listen to that. But since nobody knows that yet, seems odd to bash it now.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 2:17 PM
  • My problem with a wall is that it will be a monumental waste of time and money. It won't work for the same reason the great wall of China and the Maginot line didn't work. I suppose maybe it'll make you feel better that were keeping out them foreigners out but consider this: Until we publicly call out the corporate entities that profit from all of that cheap labor who happily keep their heads down and will work for whatever is offered them nothing will change. I can think of a couple of local corporate entities right here in our hometown who turn a blind eye. The problem with an actual wall is that they're already here. If there is a market and companies are more than willing to hire knowing full well someone is illegal, they will find a way to get here. Wall or not. It has to start there. If Donald were to publicly call these companies out that might be a start. But don't hold your breath, A wall is just ridiculous and wasteful. BTW, clearly your kids do need Medicare because if you were in a otherwise financial position you wouldn't be eligible for Medicare. Also, if you were financially able to take care of your own kids, but managed to finagle Medicare just because they are handing it out like "Halloween candy" then you sir are part of the problem.

    -- Posted by What the f...... on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 2:40 PM
  • My kids don't have to have health insurance at all. I could afford health care probably but it would be very tight, I'm right on the edge of being eligible. But even if I wasn't, they wouldn't "need" Medicare cause they could just not have health insurance period.

    So I guess your saying if you saw a $10 bill just laying on the ground you'd leave it there or turn it in to lost & found of nearest business huh?

    I can understand the waste argument. I agree that people will always find a way here if they want to come bad enough. And I'm sure plenty of border agents will be bribed & what not, just like they are now. So I can see & agree with your points. If they put it to a vote, I'd say I'd vote against it. If it's not something the public vote for though, than it just something we have to work & make the best of.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 3:03 PM
  • Australia has 93% fewer people in it than the US does. Hard to say what works for you would for sure work here.

    It could very well work, but id have to see realistic numbers to buy in. just saying it worked in countries a fraction of our size isn't much od a convincer

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 14, 2016, at 8:04 PM
  • You guys seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying using other countries as a model is pointless because we aren't the same size so don't even bring it up. My point is simply the countries are so vastly different that you can't simply say "welp worked here so will work there guaranteed". I'm simply pointing out that while it does work there, do to size (& other differences) that does not automatically mean it will work here.

    Yes CB I do understand the rule of large numbers. I do thank you for the compliments :)! But my point is also where do those large numbers come from? You if you poll every person in LA & NY that is a very large number & could point to some things, however those are two large cities with very different values & beliefs than say Marshall MO have. And there are a lot more Marshall MO's than NYC or LA's. So while the large numbers may say one thing, it does need to be verified that within those large numbers there are also diverse numbers.

    I don't know if I've ever said that the Socialist Medical is not the best way. If I have I do apologize because I would tend to agree with you guys that it would be. I mean it would be handy to just walk into the hospital and not fill out 10 forms every time because we are all under the same thing so nothing matters but my name & to make sure I'm a legal citizen. It would be nice not to have to worry about a medical bill or trying to figure out the specifics of complicated insurance that included co-pay, deductible, what percentage do they pay after such & such and all those other complicated terms spelled out in 50 page insurance policies. For me as a citizen going to the doctor, it would be insanely simple! So I agree with you all on that.

    Now here is where we disagree. You guys seem to think that it should be so easily to implement today & go forward with no issues at all. I don't see it as being quite that simple. For one, it does need to be funded. I think we can all agree this isn't free for everyone. So if the government is taking care of it without raising taxes what programs are being cut in order to fund it? If can't cut enough programs so have to raise taxes, what taxes go up? I know the quick answer is the top 1%. I like that because that's not me so screw them, make them pay more. But we all know they aren't the top 1% cause they are stupid. Most of those 1% people will find new loop holes to save most of their money. That is not an opinion, that is just literally a fact. Rich people will be writing these bills and rich people will pay other rich people a ton to read every single word to find every single loophole possible. So, whatever the difference is between who pays & who finds outs, who is next taxed to pick up the slack? How much are these taxes? What about people who never go to the doctor, will there be any tax rebates or something like that to incentivize not going for every sniffle cause it's free now?

    I'm sure there are a ton more questions cause this is a complicated issue. But here is the problem, there are more than one answer for each of those questions. There are pros & cons to all of it. People on the far left like you guys will have one opinion. People on the far right will have another opinion. People in the middle will have a little of both. Now how do you get everyone to agree enough to make it truly the best it can be? That's what happened with Obamacare, in order to get the far right to by in enough to get it passed they had to basterdize it so that it really wasn't anything the Dems wanted but they promised it so they had to do something. Maybe one day everyone will realize that people aren't evil & automatically wrong simply because they have a different letter following their name, but until that happens how comfortable is everyone in here that the perfect system will actually be possible to pass any kind of vote?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 8:54 AM
  • Instead of free healthcare, how about affordable, non-gouging and non-driven only by maximum possible profit, bankrupt you healthcare? As to funding, do we really need to be spending money on Donald's wall?

    -- Posted by What the f...... on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:10 AM
  • For arguments sake, let's look at some numbers. These will be guesses, but I think pretty representative of today's middle class.

    Let's say a guy makes $20 per hour and with a little overtime on top of the 2000 full time hours worked per year, his gross income is $45,000.

    His wife works and makes $10 per hour, so these aren't rich folks by any means. She's making $20,000.

    Family gross income is $65,000. Being good Americans they have two kids, and they are above poverty level (as long as both keep their jobs) so no public assistance is available.

    Let's guess that to insure a family of four it costs about $700 per month, times 12 equals $8400 per year. That might be high, it might be low, but isn't far off for sake of the next calculation.

    That means they are paying about 13% of their gross income for private health insurance. That's a pretty big bite.

    Since the Affordable Care Act we know that insurance companies operate with a 15% to 20% overhead so at 17.5% profit and cost, about $122.5 per month, or $1470 per year of this couple's insurance premium goes to profits and operating expense of the insurance provider.

    So, if this couple could receive health care coverage at no cost for a payroll tax that was less than their insurance premiums they would come out a little ahead. No more health insurance premiums, but higher taxes.

    Next up is the argument over whether the government could provide the same service as the insurance company for less cost.

    We already have an example. Medicare.

    If Medicare can operate at a 2% overhead cost, then we should assume that it would maintain this cost going forward with expansion to cover everyone. Yes, covering more people costs more, but administrative costs as a percentage of gross revenue will stay the same. Gross revenue goes way up with the new "Medicare for everybody tax" but 2% of twice as much money, or whatever the increased amount is, gives funding for that larger bureaucracy.

    At 2%, that's about $14 per month for our mythical couple to cover the overhead instead of the $122.50 that goes to the folks running the insurance company.

    So with our lowered administrative cost, our couple pays $590 per month in increased taxes. That amounts to $7080 per year. Still a big old bite, but they save. $8400 - $7080 equals $1320 per year, or $110 per month in savings.

    Yes, they pay more taxes, but no more health insurance premiums.

    So a 10.8% tax would be necessary to collect the $590 per month required to provide them coverage.

    Of course we need to figure out whether a graduated scale of payment based on income would make sense so that less well off folks don't get hit quite as hard.

    And of course, we'd need to figure out how to keep the tax avoiders (looking at you, President Trump) from weaseling out on their share of the burden to insure America.

    Self employment tax would need to include this health care tax for folks who don't work for a paycheck.

    Some method of taxing realized capital gains will be necessary for the Wall Street and Real Estate moguls who theoretically have no taxable income right now even though they rake in plenty.

    So, yes, taxes would increase for "Medicare for Everyone." 10% of gross seems like a huge increase, and it is.

    But I'm not so sure folks are paying much attention to how much of their income is now going to health care premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and uncovered costs. It's also a huge amount.

    So for those who goes without insurance, it sounds terrible to have to start paying for something that used to be optional. I think that's the sticking point, as the social system won't work without almost total participation, it holds that folks will be required to buy something they used to be able to opt out of.

    But you already pay for many things you are forced to. Car insurance, for instance. No option to not buy that unless you break the law. Sales tax is another fine example of something most people pay and never even think about.

    I haven't heard many people ready to revolt over sales tax, gasoline tax, excise taxes, use taxes, property taxes, income taxes, or the fact that you are required by law to buy car insurance. (other than me)

    Bring up a health care tax though, and watch out.

    Then the argument from young healthy people arises. "Why should I have to pay for something I never use?"

    Hey, I pay property tax every year to support schools even though I have no kids in there.

    Would anyone support it if I proposed that only people with school age children be required to pay that big, fat tax levy to operate public schools? Heck no.

    So we already have a track record of taxing one person to pay for something for another.

    I reckon Socialized Medicine is just another one of those.

    The biggest sticking point of all, however, is that insurance companies will not let the status quo die an easy death.

    As we love to politicize everything in America so some slick politico can capitalize on the fears of, or support of, any and every issue that faces us, we face an enormous uphill battle to get half of America to stop listening to the supporters of the status quo and start thinking of how a better system might benefit everyone.

    Others in the world have figured this out, but they don't have that absolute certainty that the profit motive is the only motive for everything on the face of the planet like Americans have been trained to believe.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:32 AM
  • We haven't spent a single penny on the wall yet. So that's not a program to cut or anything. That's just something to not also do. To fund full medical coverage you will need to find more money than we have already designated to medical care today. Now how much money, I do not know, that's another good question for much smarter people. Once you have that number, that's when you start deciding what can you cut or what new taxes can you bring in and combination there of. Also in that is what new programs (such as the wall) can we live without since there won't be money for everything. And after it passes if something backfires, what are your plans B thru Z to cover every possible flaw?

    All I'm asking for is a real honest realistic plan that isn't just all about screwing somebody you don't like. Once I see one of those, I'll be first to vote yes.

    I have my own personal ideas, but again they aren't realistic. Cut back on military, legalize & tax hell out of weed, reasonable tax increase for wealthy, slight increase for everyone (basically just keep usual medicare tax & add like $10 per check on top of whatever do now). Another crazy one I've heard from somewhere, can't remember who said it but I liked it. Anytime someone sues someone, no more big settlements. You get the damages you earned, but then any punitive damages (like getting $20 million for pain & suffering BS) goes to government healthcare. So you sue for coffee burning, you get your medical bills, back pay & actual losses covered and check made to you. But that extra $20 million judge gave you cause screw McD's, doesn't go to you, goes to Healthcare.

    One that gives big money into healthcare & two will lower the number of lawsuits cause people aren't trying to win the lottery which will same money in the judicial system which could then also be put into healthcare.

    Now none of that stuff I just said would ever happen. So thus any plan I said based off that is pointless. So, now we need actual real life ideas, which clearly I'm lacking.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:37 AM
  • I could also spend lots of words on the ability of a single payer system to implement cost controls on the pharmaceutical and health care industries, as they have partially done with Medicare.

    But I'm tired of typing.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:38 AM
  • Sorry News we were typing at the same time. Love your post! Broke down very simple & logical, which for people like me is important ha-ha.

    You are correct that a big sticking point is the not needing it. Another big sticking point is convincing someone that never uses something that they should pay the same as someone who uses it daily.

    Property tax you can avoid, just rent. Car insurance you pay, but you pay based on your use. Good driving record with paid off car pays fraction of someone with brand new car & horrible driving record. So while yes we all pay it, at least we pay somewhat fairly. And if I don't want to have it, I can simply not drive. Can take bus, cab or walk where I need to go. So there is an out.

    The rest of that stuff goes to everything and everyone uses it the same for the most part. We all buy things, unless you want to go fully of grid & back to nature, we all have to buy things. Thus we all pay the same sales tax so that's fair cause we all buy stuff.

    But I agree with your post Smart, those are the major issues and it will be extremely hard to convince those people it's better for them. They have to really think far ahead. And again, it then depends on what else has to change with it, if anything.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 11:40 AM
  • I'm sorry News, I meant simply the sales tax is the same because we all pay the same amount at the register. Now yes, paying $2 for someone making $10 a hour is more than someone making $20. We just talked about different things.

    Every other country (but one other besides us but can't remember which) use the metric system too. Yet we still stick to our system. I have no problem agreeing that it's probably the best system. But again it's the fact of getting everyone else to not only agree it is the best system, but then sign up for it is a different story.

    I fully understand that maybe very frustrating for people like you guys in here who think it's just such common sense & should be done today. It's been talked about for decades yet here we are, really not any closer it to it being a reality. Both because the average person doesn't fully buy into it, and even more because the two political parties can't agree on it. They'd rather say screw you to each other than work together for the common good. Both parties are like arguing with a religious nut who believes the bible is 100% fact. No matter how reasonable & logical you are, they'll always just say "welp your wrong because you don't believe in God". The parties are the same exact way, "welp your a democrat/republican so you can't be right".

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 3:39 PM
  • Except there is only one party that does not support single payer, not both.

    Surely you knew that already. It is absolutely effortless to find conservatives who state publicly that they not only hate single payer health care, but want to eliminate social security and medicare as well.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 4:06 PM
  • Oh I agree that only one party opposes it. But that means to get them to support it the Dems would need to make some concessions. Now are they willing to make enough concessions that would cause the Republicans to come meet them for the single payer?

    This is a major issue in which both sides will need to give & take. You right there just proved my point that I don't see it possible. You automatically shifted 100% of the blame for it not being here on the Republicans (or that's how it reads "only one party doesn't want it"). As long as we have a two party system everything always will have to work for both sides which like any marriage, means compromise from both sides. Nobody will ever win saying "my way or the highway" or saying "well it's all their fault".

    Why don't instead of just saying, dumb Republicans. Why doesn't someone go, ok what would it take to get you to sign off, realistically. Then take those demands & start negotiating. Something this big, both sides will probably have to give a whole hell of a lot and more than likely this won't be a perfect 50/50 split. Someone will feel like they gave up to much, but if this is as important as everyone here is saying, as long as it passes, do you care if you had to give up more than you want too?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 4:17 PM
  • Everyone has a price, I guarantee you could get the conservatives to sign off on this. The question really is, when push comes to shove & the negotiations are at a stand still & it's now or never, how big of a check are you hardcore liberals willing to write to get Single Pay?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 4:23 PM
  • Why do u seem to think the only option available is one? Any option is on the table. Maybe old ones weren't perfect, but they were better for people like me than Obamacare. So while I agree the single pay may be best, I'm cool with old one too.

    Also I don't have better ideas. That takes someone much smarter than me. That's why I say I'll roll with whatever we have. I'll make it work one way or another. Adapt or die.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 8:04 PM
  • Again my point is made. I stated it would take negotiations & working together & your response is tell GoP to take away military funding. You guys do understand that for the near future the GOP runs the show? Which means they hold all the cards in negotiations. So u want them to accept single pay & cut military spending, expect to lose SS, planned parenthood & few more things you won't be happy to loose.

    That's what I meant by how big of a check u want to write. Unless u just wait until the Dems have full power, then sure u run the show. But until then what would u be willing to give up to get it done to start helping people today?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 8:14 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 9:02 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 9:26 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 9:37 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 9:44 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:05 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 15, 2016, at 10:29 PM
  • News, you keep talking about working or not working models like that means anything. Again I get it's probably frustrating and might not make sense to you in Australia, but in the reality of America it's not a big surprise.

    Plus it depends on who you are arguing for because it did work for some people. Fully agree that it did not work at all for lots of people, but it also did work for lots of people. For the greater good of everyone in the country, no it didn't work. I would vote for you system if I had one. But if the government decideds to do something else, then just have to roll with it and make it work.

    Yes it will take all the government working together to get it paid for. But again, that means both sides need give & take and right now the Dems would have to give more. As you stated, if the new system sucks & Trump is really bad, than sure you guys could easily rule the roost in 4 years and do whatever you want. That's all good. But by sitting back & just waiting there is always a risk. Trump could actually be not as bad as you think, maybe he does just good enough to get a 2nd term? Or maybe the GOP itself does good enough that Dems don't take full control & left in the same disaster situation as Obamacare. Those are risk that need to be calculated into the negotiations.

    Yes there are apparently still thousands of people with no jobs or families to worry about who feel throwing temper tantrums is the way to go. I mean seriously, they are protesting the democratic process & something that literally can't be changed. So what is the point of the protest? What to be heard, pretty sure Hillary winning the popular vote spoke a lot louder than cry babies who a lot didn't even vote. How can you be so mad when you didn't even care enough to go vote? My favorite part was watching one protester who was gay, say she was furious because Trump wants to take away her right to marriage. When told Trump specifically had just said he would not change that at all, in fact he is for it, she said "like we are supposed to believe a word out of his mouth" so the reporter asked her why she was so scared then, she said because of what he said. So which is lady, can you believe his words or not?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Wed, Nov 16, 2016, at 8:46 AM
  • Hey, Eieio, maybe you could get yourself a rent-a-cop badge and start rounding up your neighbors, eh? Or would that get in the way of your YouTube romance with Goudy and Chaffetz?

    Oldschool, all the gerrymandering of the past 15 years or so has assured us of a GOP controlled congress well into the future, so don't expect much. There will be no democrats in control of the House of Representatives until that lovely little aspect of election rigging is dealt with.

    The RNC plan to get control of state legislatures and governorship's, and then gerrymander the hell out of those states, has paid off for them handsomely as planned. And, yes, our state is one that suffers that fate.

    Since we have 6 Republicans and 2 Democrats in the House from Missouri, that would indicate that 75% of Missourians are Republicans, right?

    However, you will find that there are nearly equal numbers of registered Democrats and registered Republicans. How is that representative democracy?

    I also found this fun fact. As of 2010 there were 15 counties in Missouri that had more registered voters than population of voting age.

    None of which vote blue, all are red in the most recent elections. None of which are in inner cities where all that supposed election rigging is happening either.

    So which side is rigging elections again?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Wed, Nov 16, 2016, at 11:42 AM
  • Forgive me if I'm being simple here, but who cares what the # of registered democrats or republicans are? Since the registered # is roughly the same, but Republicans win at 6-2 rate, that must mean that unregistered voters in Missouri tend to lean Republican more than Democrat. How is that not representative democracy?

    Both sides are rigging elections all over the place. Just google Democrat rigging & Republican rigging and get plenty of examples for both. In the political world if you aren't cheating you aren't trying, more so DC level elections than local ones.

    If what you say is true Smart & the Dems won't have full rain for a long time, than I go back to my statement of how much are Democrats willing to give up in order to get Republicans to sign off on the health care you want? Because if the Democrats won't have full control than they will need Republican help so they still have the power in negotiations.

    And again what works, what's failed, what's right or wrong doesn't really mean a lot in politics in 2016. What is Democrat or what is Republican means much more to politicians than what's right or wrong or what works & doesn't.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 16, 2016, at 11:55 AM
  • I agree with you that many politicians don't care what works or doesn't, or what is best for the most people most of the time. They are harshly divided along party lines. It's been that way in America for quite a while now. Centuries as a matter of fact. Occasionally, I believe we get one who does care, but their voice is usually drowned out with fake news and mud slinging from their opponents.

    The question is, which one of our far from perfect parties in our two party system is closest to what the individual believe's is best for the country?

    Sadly, our politicians hire political scientists who can't resist mass manipulation of the public with those sociologically proven techniques. The goal is to convince the voters that their side is what is best when in reality, it's just a sales campaign and they mostly wish to hide their true intentions.

    (Thanks to Hortonville, WI teacher Danielle Gordon for those synopsis.)

    A great example of that entire system and methodology is Trump. Steve Bannon is an admitted anarchists and racist. His goal in his adult life was to destroy our political system. He hates integration, he hates non-discrimination laws, he hates equal opportunity.

    Not hard to find him on tape telling people all of that. Yet he sold a totally unqualified candidate to the American people and has gotten himself firmly entrenched into the inner workings of our government by utilizing the world's best propaganda machine, the internet.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 17, 2016, at 8:43 AM
  • Your comment about gerrymandering leads me to believe that you didn't get much from my post about that, but you are quite willing to dismiss it (gerrymandering) as insignificant.

    Perhaps I could explain further. You do get that the entire state does not vote for all the congressmen, right? Only voters in each district vote for that district's representative.

    The goal by Missouri's right-wing controlled legislature, given that Missouri has 8 congressional districts, was to pack as many Democrats into as few of them as possible. That's how traditionally Democratic leaning Saline and Lafayette Counties ended up combined with urban Kansas City.

    Same thing in urban St. Louis, pack as many St. Louis area Democratic voting precincts into one congressional district as possible.

    Then, the others can be drawn to assure Republican majorities from the start.

    It is done with a precinct by precinct analysis of voter registration data and exit polling collected after every election and then drawing boundaries that lump fewer majority democratic precincts in with more majority Republican precincts.

    This is not a theory, Oldschool, and it's not my opinion, it's a fact. A well known fact to those who pay attention.

    It also works well. And works better and better for the ruling party with the application of modern meta-data analysis, computerized record keeping, and politicians paying handsomely for highly intellectual consultants to tell them where to draw the boundaries. These consultants guarantee their results.

    So in a state with approximately 50-50 distribution of voters party affiliation, you would expect, generally speaking, and equal number of democrats and republicans to be elected if the boundaries were drawn with effort put toward equal representation from both parties. Or at least boundaries that were drawn based on geography (ex: along county borders, northwest, southeast, etc.) or like interest (rural, urban, Ozark hillbillies, west central bible thumpers, etc).

    That is not how it is done, however. District boundaries are empirically and mathematically determined to give advantage to whichever party was in control of the legislature at the time.

    Since the latest gerrymandering efforts in the early part of this millenium (2003?) we have had 75% of our congressmen be Republican. That result should be due to 75% of Missourians voting for Republicans, but that is not true.

    And if you don't wish to use voter registration as an indicator of the distribution of Democrats and Republicans in Missouri, what statistic would you suggest for meta-analysis of the political leanings of the entire state?

    I also don't believe in the concept of the "undecided voter." When pressed, they make a decision. Those that vote pick somebody on election day, don't they? I really don't think there is 15% of the population that flips a coin in the booth.

    If you study psychology, you would learn that most people who say they are undecided really have decided, they just don't want to admit their choice, or they don't think it's anybody else's business who they vote for.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 17, 2016, at 8:49 AM
  • Dang, I almost forgot why I came to Speak Out this morning in the first place.

    I thought this was cool enough to share. I'm not religious myself, but thought this was an obviously talented kid who has found a way to counter ISIS in his own way.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 17, 2016, at 8:55 AM
  • I actually do understand gerrymandering, I just got mixed up with what you where saying. That's my fault.

    Gerrymandering is done by whoever is the ruling party at the time. The reason it's like it is in Missouri is because it has been a red state for most of it's existence, thus of course it will continue to go that way thanks to the Gerrymandering. Democrats do the same thing in the areas they own. The reason I don't think it's a big deal is simply because both parties do it and it only makes someone angry when their party isn't the one in charge. Personally I'd like to get rid of it and just set the districts one time fair & square & move on never to change them again.

    But again to do that you'd need politicians to give up power, which if you can do that, I got some water I'd love to be turned into wine ha-ha.

    What the individual believes is best for our country is just as split as the parties are. Just look at our discussions, what you guys think is so important & life changing I don't always agree with, and vice versa. I think abortion should be 100% legal & easier to get. So on that I'm all democrat. But I also feel like people should take responsibility for their own lives & not expect free handouts & to be taken care of by daddy government, that's all republican. So which side the individual desires is based on specific topics.

    Of course people can be undecided in terms of party. If you ask me today who I'm voting for in the next election, I don't know cause it depends on who runs & the issues. You know exactly who you'll vote for, whoever is Democrat no matter what!! If Trump had been the Democrat candidate(like he originally wanted to be) you would have voted for him. That is what they mean (or what I mean) by undecided.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 17, 2016, at 10:23 AM
  • -- Posted by oldschool17 on Thu, Nov 17, 2016, at 4:01 PM

    C'mon, Oldschool, admit it.

    You write fake news for a living, don't you?

    Who even knew it was possible to make a living doing that.

    Man, I'm old. And I'm the guy who always says to people "never underestimate the ignorance of the public."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 18, 2016, at 7:15 AM
  • Lmao, hey if I could find someone to pay me money to do it then for sure I'd be writing fake news stories! Unfortunately between Fox News, MSNBC, Washington Post and Shaun King they've already spent their fake stories budgets so I'll have to keep waiting.

    Would be pretty easy though. Just pick a side, write something that completely supports your side while completely bashing the other side & hit send. People are so quick to hate the other side these days that they'll gobble it right up!

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Fri, Nov 18, 2016, at 8:06 AM
  • CBB, I feel for you man.

    Jeff Sessions as Attorney General. Whew.

    How naive I was when I thought Rudy Giuliani was too biased for the position.

    I reckon this is where President Trump pays back the white supremacists for their support. That pick has Steve Bannon (Mr. "Racism is Patriotic") all over it.

    I mean the guy was considered too racist to be confirmed as a federal judge by a majority Republican Senate back in 1986.

    I fear you can forget about Justice Department investigations into racial bias in policing, or anything else for that matter, for the next 4 years.

    "If you have nostalgia for the days when blacks kept quiet, gays were in the closet, immigrants were invisible and women stayed in the kitchen, Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions is your man" - Rep. Luis Gutiérrez (D-Ill.)

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 18, 2016, at 2:14 PM
  • But on a more positive note, this kid deserves a big old "Atta Boy."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 18, 2016, at 2:24 PM
  • Count on Zito Media to miss the Chiefs game without any repairs on Channel 4.

    -- Posted by Interested Too on Sun, Nov 20, 2016, at 1:47 PM
  • I didn't realize Trump had any "laws". Anyone who has followed national elections in America would know that a close one can't be won unless the fringe element is energized. Therefore all candidates campaign to the extreme side, but once elected gravitate towards the center.

    -- Posted by outsider on Sun, Nov 20, 2016, at 9:02 PM
  • That is pretty much how national politics seem to work News. They promise 10 things, get in and realize how the system actually works, then lucky to get 2 or 3 done.

    I expect Trump will replace Obamacare with something. Honestly Trump made so many crazy promises I don't know which other ones he'll actually be able to get done besides that one. Don't see the wall happening, don't see 3 million people getting kicked out that easily, don't see him tearing up all our trade agreements. I think he'll do something with everything, but to what level will he be able to make any actual change, that I don't know.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 21, 2016, at 8:11 AM
  • Having new ideas and not acting like your average politician doesn't change how politics work. He can be as different as he wants but he still has to follow procedures.

    You seem to be stuck on this will or won't work thing. Never said what new care would be or if would work or not, simply stated it will change. Also just because it hasn't worked before doesn't guarantee it won't work, just like just because it has worked before doesn't guarantee it will work the next time.

    Do you think Trump gives any thought to 2018 elections? I would be willing to bet big money that he doesn't give it any thought until 2018.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 21, 2016, at 2:38 PM
  • The Democrats are more worried about the 2018 elections than Trump is. All 435 of the House seats are up for grabs and the Democrats currently representing all those districts that voted red this year are gonna feel the heat. If Trump has any success at all the majority could get really big next time.

    -- Posted by outsider on Mon, Nov 21, 2016, at 4:25 PM
  • Oldschool sounds like one of those investment disclaimers, "past performance is not an indicator of future returns."

    However, past performance (history) is a fine indicator of what will happen given the same set of circumstances, so it is typically a great predictor of the future.

    In fact, a really smart American once said, "that's the problem with history, it keeps repeating it's self." It was, of course, a cynical remark about how people keep forgetting the lessons of history and make the same bad decisions and stupid mistakes over and over, somehow expecting different results.

    Kinda like how the cons keep thinking that trickle down (tax breaks and public policy that favors those at the top) is somehow going to fix the declining economic status of the working class.

    Regarding the 2018 congressional elections, it's a predetermined outcome (gerrymandering) so I don't look for Democrats to gain any ground. The Republicans already have a majority, so nothing changes once again.

    History from about 8 years ago would indicate that following complete Republican control of the House, Senate, and Presidency, we can look forward to a 250% larger national debt, several thousand dead American soldiers and tens of thousands of disabled veterans, and a totally collapsed economy.

    Oh, yeah, and all those glittering promises from the cons? Abortion will still be around, gay folks will still be hooking up, the Second Amendment will still start with "A well armed militia being necessary for a free state...," and middle class families will still need two incomes to barely get by.

    But, hey, we won't tax churches, even if they politicize the Sunday service. And the rich folks will enjoy an even bigger reward produced by on the backs and by the sweat of the working class.

    Yep, sounds like 21st century America as envisioned by the neo-cons to me.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 21, 2016, at 7:25 PM
  • Y'all seen The Donald's latest YouTube fireside chat yet?

    I certainly hope he can improve the lives of working people with affordable health care and decent wages. Heck, how about getting us back to a place where one working man's income will pay his bills? You want to improve the skills and education of Americans, get the economy straightened out so that young couples aren't bankrupted by day care and doctor bills.

    I won't be holding my breath waiting for the trickle down to work, however, no matter how much some fellow posters wish I would.

    I thought his message was good, and like I said, I hope he can help the 40% of Americans who struggle financially. Sadly, I think he surrounded himself his whole life with people who keep telling him trickle-down works.

    Also, apparently no one has informed Donald that there is no such thing as "clean coal" but there is this thing known as "climate change." I think maybe he's confused, but I don't see him getting much help from the clueless right-wingers he's interviewing.

    Why the hell does everyone on the right care so much about coal anyway? It's not the EPA and the Mine Safety Administration that killed the coal industry, it's cheap natural gas from fracking. How is it that the Breitbart/Alex Jones/Faux News crowd haven't figured that out yet? Willful ignorance? God loves coal?

    Wait, wait, it just occured to me. Charcoal is a component of gun powder, and the word charcoal has the word "coal" in it, so "coal" means "Freedom," right?

    You'll have to excuse me, I'm still trying to figure out the 2000-teens version of right-wing logic.

    Wait again, "logic" is probably the wrong word.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 9:38 AM
  • Oops, Donald. I reckon now we know why we didn't want our tax returns made public prior to the election. Apparently the Trump Foundation admits in it's filings that it is guilty of "self-dealing."

    And, of course, he is choosing not to pursue charges against Clinton as, I reckon, the Trumpsters have figured out what the FBI has as well, there is no chargeable offense there.

    Any of you Trumpkins figured out just how big of a campaign of lies and misinformation you just fell for yet?

    Yes, Eieio, your boyfriend Goudy is part of the propaganda machine.

    And like I said before, the internet is the greatest propaganda medium in all of history.

    So many people not able to tell the fake news from the real. So many....

    (Did I sound a little like Donald there?)

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 9:50 AM
  • OMG Smart, a politican lied & misinformation to win a campaign? What outrage, I mean this has never happened before in American History, our politicians have always been so innocent and upstanding citizens who would never tell a lie. The outrage! Ha-ha-ha-ha

    I love the Unicorn Dream Land you all live in with your dreams of perfect health care for everyone. You should say hi to CB and his dream world of leader of KKK being best friends with leader of Black Panthers and racism becoming extinct. I truly do wish I could ignore reality in a way to maintain those dream thoughts without laughing.

    Frankly it doesn't matter who is in charge or what they do. I still have to go to work, pay my bills and feed my family. I'll figure it out a way to do that no matter who is in charge & no matter what system they use. I take responsibility for my own life, any good I have is because of good decisions I've made, anything bad I have is because of bad decisions I've made. Has nothing to do with anyone else. If economy tanks again, that will suck but won't have much time to cry about it. I'll just have to make decisions and hope I make good ones to maintain my family. If economy goes great, than I hope I make good decisions to take advantage & grow. I don't have the time nor desire to get into politics to work on changing things, thus I'll take whatever is given to me & make the best of it I can.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 10:36 AM
  • Yes my life is my responsibility News, that seems to be lost on a lot of people these days. It's not anyone's fault when something goes wrong besides my own, and in the same way when things go right it's because I've made the right decisions.

    I have personal realistic dreams News. I dream that someday I'll see my children be successful and marry wonderful people have great lives. I dream I can retire at a decent age & enjoy some golf & travel for a few years before I die. I dream I'll get to own a brand new vehicle just once in my life. These are all achievable dreams. Those dreams you all have for the country, are not achievable in any way.

    Racism has been around since humans wiped out Neanderthals (pretty sure I misspelled that). There will never be a day where there is no sector of society that doesn't think they are better than someone else or they hate someone else just because they are different.

    Likewise there is no perfect healthcare system for everyone. The culture is to diverse for that to even be a possibility. Now you can find one that helps more people than not, but there is no perfect system.

    I've never personally been on any of those systems so not sure how I'd be dead? I was alive before my grandparents even started getting SS or medicare so not sure how that really effected my life. But I do agree those are all great systems, although food stamps could use some work. Think that should be listed more specifically to certain foods but that's just my own personal bias.

    Yep Nixon was in the White House, and we are still the greatest country in the world. Just like we will be after Trump is gone whether he's good or bad at the job.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 2:24 PM
  • -- Posted by EiEiO on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 4:35 PM
  • Yep, Oldschool, I will admit that I would prefer to elect leaders who aren't big fat lying sacks.

    Interesting that you find that sentiment in others worth insulting.

    Promising the world to voters and then being unable to deliver is one thing. Making up blatant personal lies and spreading fake news stories for the sole purpose of slandering the opponent is quite different.

    I thought you recently posted a brief rant about what high moral fiber and character your generation possesed as opposed to the millenials. Slander and lying are to be expected though, eh?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 22, 2016, at 5:40 PM
  • suffer through this conversation because that's what internet trolls do. You claim to be some wealthy retiree in Australia but for all we know you could be a guy living in a camper down by the river stealing Wi-Fi from the Waffle House on the hill.

    -- Posted by outsider on Wed, Nov 23, 2016, at 6:33 AM
  • Well News Trump hasn't broken any campaign promises yet because he's not in office to have broken them. Kind of funny how you can't actually do anything at a job until you start it lol.

    Well for one you moved away & yet are still obsessed with it like some jilted lover who can't get over the one who got away. So that right there shows Australia at least isn't good enough. You are correct, I've never lived anywhere else. And I never would live anywhere else, why would I lower myself like that?

    Yes those are a few of the people who support Trump. So are you stating with that post news that everyone who support Trump are neo-nazi's? And you want everyone who supports Trump to kill themselves in a mass suicide. Glad to see Australia is home to rational level headed people who just want equality & good for all. Well unless they disagree with me, then I hope they all die. That's one way to go about being equal.

    What in the world is this Alt-right stuff? First heard term couple weeks ago and thought it was just some made up thing, is it like tea party junk or something?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 23, 2016, at 8:44 AM
  • That is simply a false narrative CB. Just because someone supports Trump that does not mean they support racism, sexism or whatever. It's not guilt by association here. To automatically make that assumption is lazy.

    I know my country is the greatest because most everyone else hates us, that's called jealousy. I have no problem with this. And if we aren't #1, than please inform me who you guys think is #1?

    Now it does not surprise me at all that you would want mass amounts of people who disagree with you to die CB. I actually would have been surprised if you said anything other than that.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 23, 2016, at 10:44 AM
  • Thanks for the list News, as I stated, we are #1!!

    Hey quick second away from the fun back & forth trolling.

    I did see one thing at lunch that I thought even though it was from Trump it's an idea we've all talked about & like. Term limits for congress. I've never understood why there aren't term limits on congress & senate. Am I right that despite Trump saying this, we can all agree this is a good idea?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Wed, Nov 23, 2016, at 1:08 PM
  • So far in that police stupidity thing in Marshall the only person willing to call BS was our Prosecuting Attorney, Don Stouffer, apparently. We should be thankful that we have someone who is willing to stand up for the truth in that position. (gratuitous Thanksgiving reference intended)

    I reckon the external investigation will need to get completed first, however, or the city will be sued by the dismissed employees.

    The whole thing seems to have taken on a "let's just let thing blow over" slant.

    I also think that the lying and attempt to cover up what happened by the leaders at MPD is at minimum as unlawful and just plain wrong as the reckless endangerment perpetrated by the officer.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 24, 2016, at 9:34 AM
  • -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 24, 2016, at 7:43 PM
  • So, do the Hillary Haters feel pretty good after being duped by the Russian botnets and trolls about all that "Clinton's a crook/on her deathbed/her husband's foundation is a scam" crap yet?




    The biggest dupes, however, seem to have been Faux News and The Blaze who repeatedly regurgitated made up stories and pointed people to that infamous source, "people are saying."

    What do y'all want to bet that the cons will just say, "so what?"

    Tell me again why folks seem to think the right wing stands for values and ethics? I was led to believe that Christians thought lying was a sin.

    What was that 8th Commandment again?

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 24, 2016, at 8:35 PM
  • For those who say Nazi references to the current state of American politics and society are inappropriate.

    And if you really want to become educated about the dangers of where we are headed, I recommend reading up on publications from one of our more intellectual political scientists, Harold Lasswell.

    I know some who visit here don't care for Wikipedia links, but it does provide a listing of his books and links to further study.

    I reckon Dr. Lasswell, who studied propoganda and media effect on society and government, would have quite a bit to say about our current conditions.

    Wait, he already said it.

    Maybe it's time for Gen X to learn that many of the mistakes we are currently making and are about to make have already occurred.

    Remember that quote from Darrow? "That's the problem with history, it repeats it's self."

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Thu, Nov 24, 2016, at 9:17 PM
  • Can anyone explain what exactly this charge is?

    Delvr/Attempt To Delvr/Poss/Dep/Conceal Alkaloid Of Cntr Sub/Intox Liq At Corr Fac, City/Co Jail Or Priv Prisn/Jail { Felony D RSMo: 217.360 }

    -- Posted by cheesehead on Fri, Nov 25, 2016, at 12:34 AM
  • I'd consider the source and move on, CBB.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Fri, Nov 25, 2016, at 6:24 PM
  • Apparently, fire failed to pick up on the fact that the lunatics in our legislature recently eliminated the requirement to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

    Where in the world did we get all the dipsticks in Saline County that brag about being white supremicists?

    I mean, I know plenty around here that are racist but they at least used to recognize that most people don't agree and don't want to hear that crap. Seems like once Trumplestilskin became their idol they lost all dignity and honor and now find it cool to spew hate and poke blacks and hispanics in tne eye.

    I agree that everyone's life matters, but shouting "All lives matter" at people protesting mistreatment of African Americans is just plain stupid and confrontational. Manners? Respect for others? Golden rule?

    You might also want to keep in mind that not just white racists are armed these days before you whip out your piece. Who ever you point it at might just be a better shot.

    It isn't real easy to hit a moving target with a compact pistol. Can you hit a 5 gallon bucket fron 50 feet when you're all jacked up on adrenaline? It ain't like TV.

    I hope I didn't use too many big words.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sat, Nov 26, 2016, at 6:00 PM
  • So, more of the same old GOP tax policy from Trump. Giving himself a 13% cut while eliminating the personal exemption for working folks.

    Thanks Donald.

    Tell me again, Oldschool, how there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Sun, Nov 27, 2016, at 2:30 PM
  • Love it all or hate it all or somewhere in between. The reality of the world is that none of it matters because it is what it is.

    News is really the only one who has actually done anything about his anger because he moved away. So credit to him for at least being proactive!

    Everyone else, no matter which side of the opinion we are, we are all the same. We post on here and don't do anything at all to attempt actual change.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody here has tried to be a cop. None of us have tried to become attornys. None of us have ran for public office. None of us have actually put our opinions into actions. So we are all just blow hearts & complainers and root for things to go wrong just so we can be right.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 9:08 AM
  • Speak for yourself, Oldschool. You have no idea what anyone else other than yourself has done or not done to affect change. Another assumption from your ego.

    How can you assume that this is the only place anyone that posts here is politically active? How can you assume that others that post here do not volunteer time helping others in need, or donating time and money to worthy causes? How do you know if anyone else here has ever held public office?

    You really need to learn that the world is a much bigger place than what is in your head. You should also learn that some of us have been on the planet close to twice as long as you, have lived more places than just here, and have seen and done much more over a lifetime.

    On a more entertaining note, it is interesting to see Prez-elect tRump acting like a 6th grader who ran for class president. I had hoped maybe his low emotional intelligence of the campaign was just an act, and he would actually turn out to be a mature adult.

    His tweet storm of "UH-huh, I did too win the popular vote! You guys cheated! I'm more popular than you are!" seems awfully childish for someone who is going to be the President of the United States, doesn't it?

    And I agree with The Post, if there was widespread fraud shouldn't that be investigated? Which would start with an audit of the ballots cast, otherwise known as a recount.

    Sheesh, somebody get the guy an 8th grade civics textbook or something. Wait, that might be a little too advanced for him.

    If I only knew where to email this link to the future Prez.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 9:39 AM
  • I think maybe you also confuse disappointment with anger, Oldschool. Another assumption on your part.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 9:41 AM
  • I stated "correct me if I'm wrong". Meaning I know I've asked multiple times if anyone is actually doing anything to make change & nobody ever states yes.

    So according to your post you all have been very active & done so much in the PAST to change what?

    Country still racially divided (always will be on some level at least).

    Wealth distribution (still got rich & poor, shocker). You're as rich as your intelligence & desire allow you to be.

    Health insurance, good for some bad for other, as always has been.

    Cops are still hated (as always will be no matter what).

    Half say we are to war like, other half says not war like enough. Sure sounds familiar.

    People want equality but only if it comes with special treatment.

    So you guys tell me, what have you marched, protested for that's changed to the way you desired? No clue how old everyone is so not sure if we going back to 60's or what so not sure what time frame we are talking about.

    I'll ask again, is anyone today trying to be a cop or get into politics to be inside the machine that can actually bring about change? News really dislikes the way the country is today so he's not here. Respect that greatly, unlike all people I heard "I'll move to Canada if Trump wins" and they are still here ha-ha.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 10:57 AM
  • So those two things that have only divided the country more?

    And even in doing that all they did is bring some kind of notice like those commercials on TV talking about being a cavity monitor not a dentist. I asked what had actually changed, what new laws or bills have been passed based solely off those?

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 1:17 PM
  • If memory serves me correctly, News Across moved to Australia to be with the love of his life, his Australian wife, not because he hates America. I think he still owns property in America as well.

    For an example of social activism that works, and as a child of the 60's, I can state affirmatively that those Vietnam protests worked to get a war stopped that was making millionaires out of businessmen and politicians while killing over 58,000 American soldiers and maiming way more.

    And since Oldschool doesn't think I have any experience or background to back up anything I say, here it comes.

    I formerly served on advisory boards for the Missouri Department of Education and the University of Central Missouri, have volunteered for a few civic organizations in three states that I have lived in, and coached a few youth sports teams. Played on an adult men's sports team that won a couple of state championships in one of those states.

    Also served on a Grand Jury once for a 6 month term, and was a juror on a Federal Civil Rights trial.

    Spent the first two years of my college education studying Political Science before switching majors. Upon finishing college (before Oldschool was born most likely) I was named the top student in the School of Applied Science and Technology. Participated on a race team for a few years that won a National Championship and won a bunch of trophies at race tracks before college.

    Career wise, let's just say that I have been paying into social security since 1970 and continue to do so, however, retirement is calling my name pretty loudly. I've been working professional level jobs at only 3 different companies my entire career. I did manage to raise two outstanding kids along the way and paid for their university education as well. Still married to their mom, who is a pretty impressive person herself.

    And I guess while I'm bragging, I can read quite fast (what we used to call "speed reading") with near perfect comprehension (which helped greatly in college) and can type around 80-100 words per minute (which helps with these blog rants greatly, along with caffeine).

    I can also shoot a 3" group at 250 yards and hit a 5 gallon bucket at 30' every time with a decent handgun.

    I read a lot, especially about politics, sociology, human behavior and the human mind, which I find fascinating. It's my preferred way to relax in any available spare time. I've read the Constitution too many times to count and like to read from the Federalist Papers for fun but definitely do not consider myself any sort of Constitutional Scholar. At least I know what it says and why.

    I really don't like bringing all that up, but Oldschool seems to think I do nothing other than type on this blog.

    And I left out the more colorful parts of my past that make many wonder how I'm still alive.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 2:06 PM
  • You've had one busy life Smart! Congrats on the sports victories and shoot accuracy, very impressive! Your intelligence was never doubted but clearly backed up with success in school.

    I think you mis-understood what I meant by my comment. Or maybe I just didn't spell it out the way I meant it too, which is completely possible as well.

    Correct, I was not even twinkle in my father's eye in the 60's. Was it really protest alone that caused the end of the VW? Or was it change of leadership in Washington, time of war, sign it wasn't going anywhere that added up to it being over & really protest didn't do much? I mean people protested since the day it started, yet it went on for over a decade. If protest was the reason the war ended shouldn't it have ended much earlier based on amount of protesting from the beginning?

    Basically you guys complain a lot and seem to have some clever ideas for ways to fix things or at least ways you'd fix things. Yet none of you were running for office in this election, none of you are applying to be cops to work on getting things done on the inside. I'm only asking what are you doing today in order to make change in these areas you constantly have issues with.

    I do know News moved long ago so I know he didn't move just because of Trump, but at least he is out of the country he complains about is my point.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 2:30 PM
  • Congrats on the solid marriage News!

    Incremental change will always happen. That's called evolution.

    Eventually equality may even get all the way to where everyone is actually treated fully equally with no special circumstances like handicap spots & mandated racial numbers. I get why we have those things now, but I look forward to the day when everyone talks about equality they actually mean full equality.

    I guess my point, is it really protest that get this stuff to happen or is it simply it takes so long that eventually younger generation who simply agrees comes into power & thus things change? I mean hasn't gay marriage been a topic for decades? I know in my life at least the cops thing has been an issue since at least Rodney King days.

    I completely agree with the body camera thing CB! I did not think of that, but you are correct! Now just cause I do enjoy playing devils advocate cause I like all sides out there, you do realize someone could turn that same stat you said about complaints being down could mean that people know cops have cameras so they don't make up the same number of complaints to try to get out of crimes right? I agree with you, just saying it's easy to turn that stat right around.

    So it's huge pain & hard to move to Australia, yet people complain when people want to make it harder to move to America?

    News do you worry about your family every time you hear about a car crash? Or about a drug overdose? Or someone died at work accident? Cause by numbers your family is much more likely to be in that kind of report so if you truly do fear for your family I'd think that those reports would keep you busy with worrying.

    Also just to add new stories, when will we start work on new knife control & car control after the latest school issue? Clearly it is way to easy for someone to get a knife & car in this country & it's putting us all at risk! :)

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 3:56 PM
  • I think the war protests definitely had an effect on the politicians. They didn't really get going until about 1966 or so but our involvment in Vietnam began much earlier during the mid 50's. Seems like US troop numbers really started climbing around 1964.

    Nixon was a big warmonger and was more or less forced to start troop withdrawl in 1973, before he was impeached. Don't quote me on the dates as I haven't fact checked myself there.

    Public demonstrations and civil unrest also played a major role in the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968. Ever heard of Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama? The March on Washington? The Summer of 1968 Riots?

    Sadly for opressed people in America, the status quo would not budge until the public demanded change following the horrific responses of racist state and local governments.

    In fact I think you could make a case that nothing changes in America because the change is simply a good idea or the right thing to do. Things change in response to public outcry and a demand for change. Like I have said repeatedly, the status quo never goes down easily and many times things get real ugly before they get better.

    Those who profit, financially or personally, from the status quo will spend a ton of money and political capital to keep things the way they are. It's the underlying factor in why protest and things that sometimes seem outrageous are necessary to prompt progress.

    Workers would still be dieing hourly in the robber barrons factories and their families would still live in shacks if not for the labor movement which led to labor unions and the Fair Labor Standards Act. The status quo there surely did not change without major ugliness followed by the publics demand for change.

    All this being said, we have regressed in the last 20 years and I can point directly to the preferred policies and ideology of the right wing for that. Sadly again, I am fairly sure many contemporary Americans have no idea what they are getting along with their love of guns and non-secularism.

    Guns and religion, and now white supremicy, are being used as bait to attract votes that are in actuality harmed financially and personally by their choices as they chose to ignore those lessons of history. Of course white supremicy has always had a role in non-secular conservatism, but they used to keep it in the back room. With Trump and Bannon, they have put it on prominent display.

    I reckon the hope there is that perhaps the public will respond with outrage over that and once again demand change. Keep in mind though that following Trumps outrageous statements and pandering to white supremicists during this election and his ensuing victory he has legitimized racism and it is now part of the status quo.

    And we all know what happens when you attempt to upset the status quo.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Mon, Nov 28, 2016, at 9:08 PM
  • News, I don't believe I ever stated your fears of a black person being killed by a cop as a member of your family was unwarranted. Especially if they are use to be around cops for legal reasons.

    What I simply stated is that if you are going to state you are fearful of that black person being any of your family simply because they are black than what else must scare the heck out of you? I mean if you freeze every time you hear that, how often do you freeze when you hear of a car wreck? Considering your family member is much more highly susceptible to that kind of death than by cop? If you say you don't, than I'm going to ask what is the real reason you claim to freeze when it's a cop?

    I have no doubt the protest on civil rights helped a lot, not necessarily because of the protest, but because of the video of the reaction to the protest. When average people saw hoses, dogs & beatings that people got it caused outrage. When after seeing those things they then heard politicians in the south say the things that make Trump seem like president of the NAACP, it made people outraged. But without that protest, that doesn't get on TV & people don't see it.

    The problem with the protest today, is it's having the reverse effect. Today it's the protesters that are sparking the outrage and the response is getting the sympathy. It's because protest are now over every little thing and frankly if there is a good message in there, it's getting lost with all the whining. Now when people protest the national reaction is "what are they mad about this time". Doesn't help when one of top protesters is Kapernick who claims to hate oppression & wants change refuses to vote & then speaks love of Castro. It's that kind of hypocrisy that maybe goes unnoticed w/out 300 channels, Twitter & smartphones. But in 2016, everyone has access to everything.

    Smart you stated things have regressed over the last 20 years. So maybe it's time for a different approach? Clearly we are not the same world we were in the 60's. In thought, technology & knowledge.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 9:17 AM
  • Good point, Oldschool, it is a different world for sure.

    I always have to remind myself that back in the early 90's, when Gates, Page, and Brin said that the internet would be the most revolutionary thing mankind had ever seen and would lead to significant change in everything I thought "These guys are really full of it. How could expensive dang personal computers and software do that?"

    They were absolutely right. I reckon I totally underestimated the power of instant communication and a platform that anyone anywhere could instantly become a publisher with an audience of millions.

    I think folks smarter than me figured out that the web is a fantastic propaganda medium that could be used to sway public opinion at light speed via proven principles of mass psychology and manipulation. A tremendous medium to prey on the fears of the uninformed, or to disseminate false knowledge and disinformation.

    Parents and schools have failed to teach children critical thinking skills and the value of skepticism for a few decades and have left a big fat opening for misinformation and outright lies to gain a foothold on equal ground with truth and real knowledge.

    A good example is Trumps statement "You can't prove that there wasn't voter fraud in the states Clinton won, so therefore it happened."

    In logic, there is no need to prove the negative. Voter fraud does not exist until it is proven to exist, not the other way around. Anyone who thinks about that for a minute should realize that it is he who wishes to state a truth that must prove his statement with facts, evidence, or logic.

    It's much like the existence of God argument. I don't have to prove God does not exist because those who say he does can not provide any proof what-so-ever. He exists in the minds of those with blind faith and nowhere else.

    The easiest refrain to someone who states that something exists, be it voter fraud or the existence of a supreme being, is "Prove it."

    Until that proof is provided, it is not true.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 11:40 AM
  • And BTW, I think this guy has nailed Trump's personality with some pretty sound logic and reasoning applied to Trumps own words and deeds.

    -- Posted by Smart Dog on Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 11:42 AM
  • Completely agree with you Smart! Course lets not forget the Democrats are screaming voter fraud & asking for recounts so again, they just are being more PC about it than Trump bluntness but both sides are saying the same thing. Which is funny cause one side won? Like I get the Dems grasping for straws praying for miracle, but the GOP won so why do they care anymore?

    But your point still stands correctly, what Trump said is not accurate in any way. Frankly he won, so why does he even care about the election anymore anyway is my question. You won, move on down the road.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 11:46 AM
  • I've said the electoral college was dumb since the first time I learned of it in school.

    -- Posted by oldschool17 on Tue, Nov 29, 2016, at 8:43 PM