If there is no God, morality is just a bunch of rules we make up. But the truth is, we all know in our hearts good and evil exist.
Without God, right and wrong are simply matters of opinion.
Science has found that the universe is exactly tuned for life. Common sense suggests a Creator did the tuning.
If there is a God, and right and wrong are so set in stone that they are never changing. Why has morality changed so much in just the last 125 years? Let alone the last 10,000 years?
Why does God even change his own personal morality if morality is set in stone? I mean he flooded the world, then when he realized he went to far he said he'd never do it again. Why was it ok to stone your kids, own slaves (rule stated you could beat them as long as they didn't die within 2 or 3 days) and force women to marry their rapist according to the bible, yet not one Christian church today would say those are moral acts for someone in their congregation to do.
Can you explain those issues that contradict your single morality compass hypothesis?
All gods are manmade. This thread won't last very long.
No it won't last long DR because RR doesn't have the conviction to stand behind his beliefs when they are challenged by facts. If he would simply admit that his beleifs are just that, beliefs with no logical justification, than we can move on. But if he wants to spew facts and claims than if his conviction is so strong he should have no issue backing up those claims. But as usual, he won't be heard from for probably at least a good month when he just repeats the same line.
You are 100% correct Ricardo, I forgot all about Latter Day Saints groups & cults like them.
Believing that people are born good removes the need for moral instruction & divine moral authority. This is why society is in moral decline.
The Bible asserts that belief in a God who distinguishes right from wrong is key to a moral world.
So you are just going to ignore every question in my post huh RR ? Also who says society is in a moral decline? Look at history my friend, this is the most moral society has ever been based on what we consider moral in 2017.
Based on what? You deny God's moral standards so that is just YOUR opinion which means nothing.
No document in history has improved the world more than the Ten Commandments.
God says that those that don't believe in him will look at his word as foolishness. What would the world be like if we actually obeyed the Ten Commandments? All the atrocities you base your unbelief on didn't happen because of them.
What do you base your morals on other then your opinion?
You do know there are more than ten commandments right RR? You still have yet to justify the morality of the bible and why you choose to follow only parts of it. Do you own slaves? Do you stone your children? If you don't you aren't following Gods words.
So big question, how do you go about choosing which or Gods laws to follow and which or Gods laws you can say nah that's not for me?
So is the religion forum back or what?
All you all are doing is expressing an opinion. You just don't get it do you.
R1cardo & oldschool17 all I can do is pray for God to intervene in your lives and do something only God can do. When you deny the truth I guess you say things that don't really make sense.
1 Corinthians 1
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
Come on desert Rat you can do better then that.
I don't need an ancient book of fairy tales to know right from wrong. That "do unto others' thing predates christianity.
In your opinion only. Why should anyone else believe that?
Forums are about opinions. I agree with almost none of yours RR.
Truth is not an opinion.
Those who commit evil in the name of God are not just insulting him. They're destroying others' faith in him.
RR please tell me what I said that is opinion and not fact? There are more than 10 commandments. You don't follow all of them. Thus the question stands how do you go about picking and choosing which ones to follow and which ones not to?
Our planet Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Man evolved. There is zero proof that any god exists or ever did. Science trumps religion.
There is zero proof that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. Man did not evolve, zero proof of that. Proof of a fine tuned universe points to a creator, it didn't just happen. To even propose something just happened is preposterous at best. Why doesn't things just happen today? Why did it only happen one time? Something that long ago cannot be proven. What do you base your belief on?
Science and common sense.
Google the age of the earth and see what you come up with from scientists. Apparently you haven't heard of Darwin. You won't find much science in your fairy tale book.
Still waiting for a response to my question RR, or will you continue to avoid how you pick & choose which commandments to follow?
Also nobody knows how the world came into existence. It doesn't matter either. We do know it's billions of years old RR, it's called scientific dating techniques, Google it.
Scientific dating falls apart going back more than about 4000 years. Mainly because we have nothing to base it from so we have to rely on speculation for the findings. Any good scientist will tell you this.
oldschool17 what commandments I follow is irrelevant. Which ones do you pick to follow? It is about a relationship with God that matters. We will always fall short, that is why we need to ask for forgiveness daily.
There is no god. Tax churches.
You know you may be right Smart Dog. Oh wait! You were talking about yourself, Right!
Actually RR which ones I follow dont matter cause I don't believe, so I have no reason to follow any of Gods laws. You however do believe and based on the belief if you don't follow gods laws you burn in hell. So according to your belief system, why do you not follow all of your gods rules? I don't follow cause I don't believe, what's your excuse for not following Gods laws?
So oldschool17 you think is is ok to murder and steal?
Do you think it is ok to torture babies for your personal pleasure?
Smart Dog you do a pretty good job of explaining your denial of God. Why do you not want to murder or steal? Why does it matter if it is good for the community?
We see plenty of communities where crime is high and good people still live among them. Is it good for them? I would find ways to defend myself or leave.
Many people claim to be good people and I'm sure they do good things. In the end Jesus will say, "Well done my good and faithful servant". Or "Go away because I do not know you". It does not matter if you want to believe or not that is the judgement we will all face.
RR are you ever going to answer my question or keep ignoring it? How do you pick and choose what commandments to follow?
To answer your question, because Im not scared of my answers. I do not think it's ok because those 3 things are against the law. I would go to jail for decades for doing any of it.
Without God we would have utter chaos. We have seen what happens when an American presence leaves such as Iran...it opens a vacuum for disaster. Something our last apologizer-in-chief was good at. We can represent a moral compass for the rest of the world that don't have God.
Smart Dog you make a good argument but you have nothing to base it on except opinion. Society changes and if you think it is ok to murder and steal for your benefit then you have no moral base. You mention human nature. Where do we get that? Where do animals get their nature? Oh you think it all just happened. Most of the best know scientist admit there is evidence for a creator but they won't dare teach that in school. Then we have grown ups that deny God so they can believe in a fantasy. Sorry but it won't hold water.
oldschool17 I have found that when you don't like the answer you claim it is not an answer. Whatever!! I have answered your question over and over but it don't seem to matter because you keep asking the same question I guess expecting a different answer. The truth of God's word never changes and only a fool will deny truth.
Still waiting for the answer to my very simple question RR. You state how great the commandments are, yet you only follow some of them. Exactly what process did you use to choose which of God's laws you think are ok to follow and which of God's laws do you not think are ok to follow?
I'm sorry RR, looks like we typed at the same time, I apologize for that. Please point me to the comment which you answered my question and I'd happily go back and read it again. I could have simply not understood the point. I asked how do you pick and choose which commandments to follow and I don't remember seeing a post where you said "these are true and these aren't for X reason".
Can you please define "truth" for me RR? I just want to make sure we are using the same understanding. My definition of truth is 100% fact that can't be proven false. As something can not be both true and not true at the same time.
We strive to do all of them but we all fall short. Didn't you disobey your parents?
That doesn't work for an answer RR and I'll explain. Striving is one thing, simply not doing something because you refuse is completely different. I get not trying to lust after a woman, but then Adriana Lima walks by and you just can't help it. We aren't perfect and even the most religious person in the world will slip up on those things. But you agree with the rule and are trying your best. Trying is striving.
Not stoning your kids because you don't agree with the rule is completely different. Not forcing your daughter to marry the guy who raped her because you don't agree with the rule is different. Especially when you say the creator of those rules is perfectly good and can do no wrong. If you are truly striving to follow all of God's rules than you would at least try to stone your child. Now if he/she ducks or runs away, or a neighbor comes over and stops you. Well then you fell short, but at least you tried to follow his law. By simply not doing it, you aren't striving, you are saying that rule is wrong. Which if you say the rule is wrong, how can you say God is perfect? If you maintain God is perfect, then why aren't you at least trying to stone your kids when they act up according to his word?
Is there any part of that you don't agree with and if so, what and why exactly?
I'm looking forward to RR's response. If he defines the word "striving" different from everyone else or what.
RR, still waiting to see what you mean by "striving"?
oldschool17 some things you just can't fix. Think about it real hard you just might get it.
That is avoiding the question RR. What do you mean when you say you are striving to obey God's laws while saying some of those laws are wrong?
Funny how RR has disappeared yet again when pushed on a point he seems to not be able to get away from.
Talking on the internet this guy said to me "I believe the world is only 6,000 yrs old, it's moral to stone children, own slaves, rape woman and commit genocide. I believe this because an invisible man in the sky told me so in a book he wrote 2,000 years ago. Mind if I talk to you about him?"
After trying not to laugh I said, "sure RR, just let me finish listening to my 3 year old tell me about Santa Clause and then i'll hear about your mystery man." HEAR'S YOUR SIGN!!!
And here I thought the bible commanded you believers to be ready to defend the faith anytime anywhere. Guess that's another part of the bible you choose to pretend didn't happen in order to justify the rest.
I guess I owe you guys and apology. I gave you guys absolutely too much credit! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaharoflmao
Told you this would get funny maybe even hilarious. Almost as funny as the libtard media.
Objective morality entirely depends on one supreme Lawgiver...God.
Not someone's opinion!!!
Until leftist intellectuals in the West acknowledge how evil communism has been, we will continue to live in a morally confused world.
It still stands that RR has no justification for his idea that God & the bible are moral absolutes when he himself finds things in the bible to be immoral. By ignoring those parts of the bible and claiming his God is something the bible does not agree with, he is in fact creating a false God which if his bible he loves so much is true, means he's broke the most important commandment and will burn in hell for all eternity for it.
It's funny how an atheist can completely destroy a bible thumper's poor arguments simply by using the book they believe makes them correct lmao. I literally had to use no evidence but what the bible itself gave me. And yes, I've read the entire book cover to cover, have you RR?
oldschool17 anything you think immoral in the bible is YOUR opinion. Nothing more. Meaningless dribble.
You claim to have read the whole book but understand none of it.
If there's no God, morality is just a bunch of rules we make up. But the truth is, we all know in our hearts good and evil exists.
It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from God.
Lol, you are the one calling God rules immoral, not me buddy. It's why you dont stone your kids and own people!
Of course morality is rules society makes up. Have you never looked at the world and seen how different morals each society has? If we all shared the same morals in our heart then all society would be the same. But what we think is moral is different then what Iran or Brazil. That's because each society makes its own rules. Same reason it was once perfectly moral to own people, to stone kids, to forced girls to marry old men and commit genocide.
Like in many other discussions with you, I have brought all facts while all you've brought is an opinion you change daily to fit your current mood :)
Don't quote me on the exact figure, but I've heard somewhere there are like 30,000 different denominations of Christianity. Think about that, 30,000 groups read the same book differently, and that is the book we are supposed to follow as absolute truth? Each one of those groups say their interpretation is the right one, well how do they know that what they interpret is correct?
Lack of religion and denying that there is a God has caused millions of deaths in our short history of this world. False religion enables people to believe whatever they want. I mean Muslims murder in the name of Allah. One of the most deadly cults in all of our history.
Christians don't murder. I know the media would love for just one of these terrorist to claim to be a Christian but it doesn't happen.
Smart Dog you buy into the lie that religion is the problem when if people would believe the truth it would solve many problems. You just don't want the truth. You and oldschool17 make a pretty good pair between believing the lie and making up the rest.
All gods are manmade. All gods are false.
Have you not heard of the crusades RR? Spanish inquisition? Nazi's? All where done in the name of the Christian God based on their interpretations of the bible. Just as Muslims have done based on their.
Even the Bizantines conquered lands in the name of God and Jesus.
So now that you have been presented with those 100% factual statements would you like to change edit your claim that "Christians don't murder"?
Does marriage matter? Yes, and not just personally. Studies found that higher numbers of married families result in stronger economies.
Ok, did anyone say marriage didn't matter? It's why it's a good thing that gay people are allowed to marry.
oldschool17 still confused aren't ya!
What do you believe I'm confused about RR?
Both of you are very, very confused!! Bad penny what you posted is a total lie. What you assume to be true will sometimes be proven to be true if all you seek is what you want to be true.
You believe a lot of things that you don't know whether it is true or not. You just believe what people tell you that you agree with without knowledge of the truth.
"I am the Lord Your God" is the First Commandment for a reason--without it, the following nine would merely be suggestions.
Still curious as to what you think I'm confused about specifically RR?
Just because someone claims to be a Christian don't mean that they are. You want to believe they are so you can justify your denial of God, otherwise you wouldn't believe that garbage either. Satan is the ultimate deceiver and is doing a good job with a lot of people. Without God you have no power over Satan. And if you deny God then you deny truth.
There is no god to deny.
So why should we trust what you say is the Christian way if just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are? What makes you more correct then someone else?
Wow oldschool17 I have encountered people that are stubborn, but you don't even want to dialogue. Tell me why you deny God! I mean let's try common sense here.
God is the only reason we even exist. Without God this only planet that can support life that is in the perfect spot in the universe, orbits the sun at the perfect distance, tilted at the perfect angle, has the perfect amount of gravity, has abundant natural resources for us to use and we know that if any of those parameters varied even 1% we would not exist. Yea that just happened by accident. Yea the house I live in now, they tell me it was an empty lot but about 1 million years ago this structure started to form and it is now the house I live in today. AMAZING!!!!
Lmao, oh RR. Do you know why we know your house was designed and built by a creator? Because it is different then nature, we compare design by how it fits with nature.
If you show me some shred of evidence that God exist I'll happily change my mind because that's what science does. However there is no physical evidence of a God. I have no idea how our world was created. I am ok to say I don't know. But you say you do know thus I need proof of how you know. So I leave it to you, what ev8dence do you have that Comfort, Sye, Ken and the rest of the ultra bible thumpers have never had?
Science is always proving that the bible is true. You look at the complexity of a human being and think we evolved and not created? It defies anyone with common sense to think that we would have ever survived in any lesser a form then what we are now. No evidence of that. Zero evidence of evolution but yet you want me to believe you? Come on how preposterous is that. It is all about your denial of God which you actually believe there is one to deny. If you didn't hold to the presupposition that there is no God you would entertain the possibility of one. Another reason you deny God is that you want to be in control and you never will. Every one of us will die. In fact I can guarantee it. Now go ahead deny it!!!
Yes we will all due, you know how you know that? Scientific evidence. Please Google evolution science. There is 100% certainty that evolution is a fact. Now if you would like to say all science is incorrect in order to hold on to your belief that is fine, but I suggest u stop using technology then.
I was born religious. I went to church twice a week and believed strongly. My pastor and even swore at one time I'd make a great preacher. I then grew up and actually read the book for cover to cover and came to the decision that there were too many contradictions in the bible to be true. And if the bible isn't true, than God isn't true to me. Now I don't know that 100%, nobody does. Like everyone else I will find out for sure when I die.
oldschool17 there will be no dead atheists. After we die the truth will be known by all. You are lying to yourself if you think there is any evidence of evolution. There is none my good friend. Anyone with common sense can see that it can't work. Something did not come from nothing and life did not come from non-life. Science can even prove that. Need to do a little more homework there good buddy.
Lol, who ever said some thing came from nothing? Please point to me what nothing even is?
Also what do you consider non-life to life?
Please let me know how you explain vaccines and medicine if there is no scientific basis for evolution?
I actually agree with you RR, there will be no dead atheist. Because if we are right when you die you are dead and there is no thinking of soul to comprehend anything. If theist are right then there would be some afyer life that would be 100% evidence that we've been asking for in order to know.
Now the funny thing it could be God & u could still be rejected based of which version of the Christian God is actually the right one. You have about a 1 in 2000 chance even if there is a god.
Also what do you consider non-life to life? Really you have to ask that question. That's what evolution is founded on and someone actually had the nerve to say it was fact. Hahahahaha!
Which version of the Christian god. How about the one you deny is or even exist? Let's start there. I only know one God and that is who I worship. In fact if I thought it would help I would invite all of you to bible study at my house on Monday nights. The Holy Spirit shows up just like Jesus says he will in the bible. It's pretty awesome.
There are over 1,000 denominations of the so called "Christian god". So that means there are at least 1,000 different versions of the one god you worship. So how do you know the one God you worship is the correct version out of those 1,000?
Also I'm sorry RR, I would never go to a bible with study with someone who knows so little about the book he claims to live his life by.
I've been to bible studies as a child all way through college, I went to Sunday school every morning and worship service at least twice a week, sometimes more. Funny how that spirit thing you speak of never once showed up. Maybe it just didn't get the meeting request or something huh?
A lot of people go to church and bible studies and pretend to be Christians so they think they can have their ticket to heaven. There is only on God and where one or more is gathered he says there I will be also. Maybe oldschool17 you were worshiping a fake God, kind of like believing fake news.
I worship no god at all RR. And you clearly need to do more research on evolution, it no where states non-life came life. Please state your source if you believe this is a fact. Evolution states what happened from beginning of life to now, it does not say anything about where life came from. The only correct answer to that question is "I don't know".
You are 100% correct RR, there are many different forms of Christianity. Please explain to me how you know your specific form of Christianity is 100% correct and everyone else who has a different version of the Christian god is incorrect?
I didn't say that there are many forms of Christianity. There is only one God that sent his son Jesus Christ to die as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Only by accepting Jesus can we be forgiven and enter heaven. One God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Any religion that does not believe that is false.
So there aren't over a 1,000 different denominations of Christianity?
Yep according to the bible God committed suicide for no reason. Funny I was also told suicide is a sin, but I guess that's wrong, either that or god can sin.
Course not like that isn't the first or last sin God committed ha-ha.
You know oldschool17 I love dialogue as long as it makes sense. You come up with excuses of why you believe a lie. You also confuse religion with being a Christian. One God, one way to salvation and eternal life. Or you can choose eternal damnation. God cannot sin, that only comes from Satan so who do you choose??
God can not sin huh RR? Well then let me ask you: Is it a sin to murder children for no other reason than to prove a point? Is it a sin to commit suicide? Is it a sin to torture someone? Is it a sin to punish the son for the father's crime?
First of all oldschool17 define sin. So I can better answer your questions.
Sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
So do you believe in God? If not is there any sin?
I have said multiple times that I don't believe in God and I also don't believe in the concept of sin.
However, if your God did exist, that would mean the concept of sin did exist and would also mean that God was sinful based on his own divine laws.
Isn't really silly to try to discuss sin and morality with someone that believes in neither? Kind of like atheist that like to get on Christian sites. In my opinion oldschool17 your nothing but a troll because you have nothing to add or not interested in getting anything out of it.
I never said I didn't believe in morality RR.
I'm adding a different view to your topic rather than just the sheep mentality of one view that can't be questioned.
For example, according to your belief God's laws include rules like Thou shalt not kill. Yet he pushed every species on earth to the brink of extension. For people against abortion how many babies got aborted thanks to God's flood? He then killed every first born of Egypt, not adults, kids. And that was for nothing more than fun, cause he could have changed pharaoh's heart at anytime. He destroyed Sodom and gamorah killing all including children. He even forced his own son to die (or committed suicide depending on how you want to view the whole Jesus is god thing). Seems like a lot of killing for someone who said it's a sin to kill.
He's also committed rape, torture and theft. But just the killing alone shows God is not above committing sins.
Funny how rather than try to explain how these things are moral and God is still some great hero, you avoid the topic completely. I'd rather you explain why I should put my faith in a being who doesn't even follow his own rules?
oldschool17 you seem to have hardened your heart much like Pharaoh. Moses told Pharaoh what would happen if he didn't release his people but he chose not to listen. oldschool17 could have been Pharaoh. You seem to be told the truth but you choose not to listen. Evidently you don't understand the context of what is taking place in the bible. Just like Moses I can tell you but will you listen?
Oh I'm all for listening if you give answers. Lets try it.
Since you brought up Pharoh let's go with that. Explain to me why it's not a sin for God to kill thousands of children for no reason? I know his reasoning was to prove a point to Pharoh to soften his heart (which it failed at). But he's God, he could have chosen anything to soften Pharoh's heart right? But instead of something else he chose to kill thousands of innocent children. Please explain to me how that is not breaking the commandment of "though shalt not kill"? According to bible context is fine.
Still waiting for that context RR. Why is it not a sin for God to kill the 1st born son of every Egyptian?
I think all of you need to go back to the scriptures and study. First ask god for wisdom and understanding in his word and if you are truly wanting to understand his word he will begin to show you the truth.
What makes you think I haven't read the bible believer? Which passages would you like me to read sir?
SEARCH FOR GOD WITH YOUR HEART , SOUL AND MIND THEN YOU WILL FIND HIM ! NO ARGUING NEEDED. IT IS NOT GODLY TO ARGUE !
Who said anything about arguing? I enjoy a good discussion. And I've done what you said, few different times though rhe years. Sincerely looking when I was in pretty bad spots in life. Never once felt any thing or heard anything.
So can you explain how you say do that and I'll find him, yet I've done it and haven't found him.
BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LOOKING WITH A HEART THAT HE CAN MOLD AND MAKE OVER AGAIN. BECOME LIKE A CHILD, BELIEVING ALL THINGS AND HE WILL MAKE YOU OVER AGAIN.I TOO HAD A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING,WENT TO EVERY CHURCH IN MARSHALL AND STILL WAS NOT SATISFIED SO I BEGAN TO LEARN ON MY OWN.I GOT OUT MY BIBLE AND MY UNGERS BIBLE DICTIONARY AND STARTED STUDYING. I FIRST STUDYED THE NEW TESTMENT,WHEN I GOT TO ACTS IT GOT VERY INTERESTING. THE APOSTLES WERE TEACHING ON THE HOLY SPIRIT.YOU NEED TO READ IT! I STARTED ASKING GOD FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT AND RECEIVED IT AT HOME IN 1980.THE EXPERIENCE WAS SO GREAT,NO WAY TO EXPLAIN IT,AND IT TOTALLY CHANGED MY LIFE . NOT MANY CHURCHES PREACH ON THE FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BUT READ REV.22:18. IN ACTS WHEN THEY WERE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT THE PEOPLE AROUND SAW AND HEARD THEM BEING FILLED.THE BIBLE SAYS TO SEARCH FOR IT LIKE SILVER AND GOLD .ALSO YOU WILL FIND OUT WHO JESUS IS AND WHEN YOU DO YOU WILL FIND GOD SENT HIS OWN FLESH TO EARTH TO BEAR PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE,NO PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD,SPIT ON,,SLAPPED AND WENT TO AN OLD RUGGED CROSS WITH A CROWN OF THORNS ON HIS HEAD TO DIE FOR EVERY SOUL THAT HAS LIVED AND EVERY SOUL THAT WILL LIVE.THINK ABOUT IT,HE WOULD HAVE DIED A TERRIBLE DEATH,AND IT WAS BECAUSE HE LOVED US SO MUCH THAT HE DIED FOR US.I DONT WANT HIS DYING FOR ME BE FOR LOSS! THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS AND I LOVE HIM SO MUCH !
First off his death was either a suicide or father killing his son. Either way, not sure how that is so great.
"BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LOOKING WITH A HEART THAT HE CAN MOLD AND MAKE OVER AGAIN." so you are saying that the all powerful God can't do something? Interesting.
GOD IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE YOUR HEART,YOU HAVE TO DO THAT! ALL HE WANTS FROM YOU IS YOUR LOVE. IF YOU DRAW CLOSE TO HIM HE WILL DRAW CLOSE TO YOU.HE DOES NOT WANT A PUPPET TO DANGLE ABOUT,HE WANTS YOUR LOVE!HE SAYS, SOME HARDEN THEIR HEARTS LIKE STONE AND HE CANT WORK WITH THEM.IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE DONE THAT !TIME IS SHORT,SOON HE WILL COME BACK TO TAKE HIS CHILDREN HOME. GET YOURSELF READY WHILE YOU CAN AND I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU.
You do know prayer has been scientifically prove ineffective right? It has the same success rate as chance.
IT HAS WORKED FOR ME TIME AND TIME AGAIN ! THIS WILL BE MY LAST COMMENT. THE BIBLE SAYS TO MOVE ON WHEN SOMEONE WON,T ACCEPT THE TRUTH.IF YOU HAVE READ THE BIBLE THEN YOU KNOW WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT A PERSON THAT DON,T BELIEVE IN HIM .BUT I WILL KEEP PRAYING
What is your definition of truth? I have read the bible, couple times actually. I know what it says a lot better than you apparently. Save your prayer for someone else. As you said if your bible is right I'm going to hell so why waste your energy.
So if prayer works, why doesn't someone pray for world peace?
There has not been world peace since sin entered the world. As oldschool17 says he has read the bible so he should know the end of the story. We the believers win. Satan also knows the end but refuses to believe it so he is happy to deceive others. Believe the lie or believe the truth, your choice.
There are many who like to claim that God can sin. They claim to have read the bible but still don't seem to get it. If I create something is it wrong for me to destroy it?
So your context that it was ok for God to kill thousands of Egyptian first born simply to prove a point to one man, was because he created us so he can do whatever he wants to us?
Just making sure I understood your last comment correctly, if I interpreted it incorrectly please let me know.
When I die, my cremated remains will blow in the wind and that will be the end of me. I do not believe in gods, devils, demons, witches, heaven or hell. You, your man-made, all-powerful, god and eons of prayer will not change my beliefs. I don't care what someone's religion is as long as they keep their superstitions out of our government and don't get super weird with human sacrifices and the like. I think spending eternity with a bunch of bible thumpers would be the equivalent of hell if there was one. I do not tithe and the likes of Oral Roberts never got a nickel out of me. I watch sports on Sundays rather than sit in a gaudy building for a weekly brainwashing. Believe what you want but leave me out of it. Tax churches.
oldschool17 and desert Rat I know you really try but you cannot understand the things of God because you deny him. I also know there are millions more that think the same that you do and there is nothing I can do about it. All I can do is present the truth and then let God be God. He is the one that has to change the heart. Nothing I can say will do that. All I know is that eternity is a long time to find out you were wrong. I always pray for the lost so there are many that pray for people like you. To me it is just common sense and logic, traits that many don't possess.
So will you just be avoiding my last question?
1 Peter 3:15
oldschool17 you seem to be unable to accept any of my answers. What answer are you wanting? Do you want me to say that God is an evil sinner?
It seems if my answer does not agree with you it is unacceptable. You need to look at what was taking place before God did certain things. Is it wrong that unrepentant sinners will go to Hell? God tells us the consequence of our sin. Is it wrong if the police give you a speeding ticket for 1 mph over the limit? The speed was posted and you chose to exceed it. Do you deserve the ticket?
God does not sin even though we may feel like what he did was a sin. We don't make that decision. We are not God. What we feel does not matter. Are we being obedient to God? If not then don't be surprised that there is a consequence.
There is no little sin, sin is sin. Just like it doesn't matter whether you are 1, 5, 10 mph, or more over the speed limit you still deserve a ticket if you are caught. The difference is that God sees all so there is only repentance to be forgiven.
Actually there is a difference. yes I can get a ticket for going 1 or 100 over, but the fine/punishment differs based on that speed. For 1 mph I may get a $50 ticket, for a 20 mph over I get a $150 ticket. For over a 100mph I get large ticket and possibly put in jail. So yes if you are going to use real case law than it proves there is difference in the level of the crime.
So God can not sin because God does not have to follow his own rules? So God wants us to be perfect like him by following his rules, but by that standard god is not perfect. I'm not making this standard, I'm simply using what the bible says. Sin isn't a sin because it break his laws, a sin is a sin because it's not what God would do. Word for word quote from Sye Ten Brudencate.
If you tell me God doesn't have to follow his own rules than that's fine just say it. You hadn't said that yet so I was only looking for some kind of justification under his rules. But if God doesn't have to be moral because he can do whatever he wants than that's the only excuse you need for him.
You definitely have an inability of understanding. The last three paragraphs make no sense and unrelated to my post. You really need to get with the conversation oldschool17.
Actually my post was directly related to your comments, you just don't like it cause it makes sense and thus hurts your argument.
God sins according to his rules. I didn't make his rules, he did. Now if it's perfectly fine for him to break his own rules that's fine, but I'm only using the terms and rules he gave. I'm not making up some new standard.
And the speed limit was to prove what you said was incorrect. There are different punishments based on the severity of the crime in the real world. Yes you can get a ticket for going 1, 5, 10 or 100 over the speed limit. But that ticket is larger the faster you go, and some point you can be arrested and thrown in jail. Thus using it as an example of God who throws you in the same burning pit of hell whether you jay walked or killed a million people is not the same. Of course in Gods court as long as your sorry and bow down and kiss his *** you can kill a million people and get set free.
Tsk! Tsk! oldschool17 sin and breaking the law are two different things. My point was that breaking the law has a consequence and sinning has a consequence. Your explanation telling me what I already know is irrelevant. God made the world and said it was good. Satan is the source of all sin and evil in this world not God. Man has free will so we have the ability to make wrong decisions. Don't be wrong on this one.
Two questions RR & Believe.
1) did God create everything knowing how it would all end? Meaning from day he created earth he knew everything that has and will happen to every living thing in it?
2) Could god have created everything in a different way if he chose too?
HE KNEW IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN CREATION WAS STARTED! NOT THE EARTH BECAUSE THE EARTH ALREADY EXSISTED .YOU, HE KNEW BEFORE THE CREATION,HE KNEW YOUR THOUGHTS,HOW YOU WOULD SPEND YOUR LIFE,HE KNEW EVERYTHING.BUT YOU DO NOT!YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR END WILL BE. SOMEDAY YOU MAY BE LIVING FOR HIM. DEATH HE DOES NOT LOOK UPON AS WE DO, HE SAID MORN AT A BIRTH AND REJOICE AT A DEATH BECAUSE THAT CHILD IS FACED WITH MANY TRIALS, THE TRIALS OF LIFE! DEATH IS COMING HOME TO HIM,REST FROM TRIALS,PAIN,SICKNESS.TO ALWAYS BE WITH HIM.THE EARTH IS HERE FOR YOU ,ALL PLANETS WERE MADE FOR OUR EXSISTANCE HERE ON EARTH! WE DONT UNDER IT AND WE NEVER WILL HERE ON EARTH.BUT WE WILL WHEN WE GET TO HEAVEN! HE ALLOWES THINGS TO HAPPEN TO TEST US.WHY DONT YOU READ THE BOOK OF JOB,MAYBE IT WILL HELP YOU!
I know exactly what my end will be Believer, I'll die.
So wait did God create the Earth or was it already here? "HE KNEW IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN CREATION WAS STARTED! NOT THE EARTH BECAUSE THE EARTH ALREADY EXSISTED." These two sentences state he knew from very beginning when creation started, but Earth was already here. So did he not create earth in the very beginning when creation was started? Or was universe already here and he just decided that would be a good spot to build on?
He created the earth when he created the solar system! That was at the beginning. Light must have been included in the heavens and earth that were created in the beginning. Story,s have been found on tablets of stone that were in circulation before the time of Abraham,in the ruins of Babylon Nineveh and Nippur and Ashur on the creation, it carries the story down to the sixth generation of Cain,s descendants,and closes while Adam was still alive. He lived until the eighth generation.
Ok, just making sure you wrote that wrong and that's not what you meant.
Of course stories where on stone tablets and what not long before Abraham. Where do you think they stole the stories from to put into the bible?
They were God inspired through the Holy Spirit. That makes the bible the best selling book of all time because it has a supernatural author.
Im a believer you are up against a brick wall with oldschool17. He either gets it or don't care or he just don't get it. It is fun to dialogue with him though. When you post truth on here he is the only one that will reply it seems the others don't have an answer or don't want to prove their ignorance.
You know better than that RR. If you post verified truth I have no problem agreeing. For example you are correct that the bible is the best selling book of all time. Who the author is we don't know, just like the Illiad. Yes we think Homer wrote it, but who was Homer? Was it some guy named Homer? Was it a pen name? Was it a group of authors under one name?
Same goes with the bible. Can say Luke wrote gospel according to Luke. But was it actually the Luke? Was it someone writing about Luke? Was Luke even a real person? Did God write it through Luke? Did god write it through someone else? Was it someone using a pen name? Was it group of authors?
You both--imabeliver and rr3yvo-- need more time to live before you tell others how to live or give interpretations of fairy tales.
Hey Believer, do you think it is morally correct to own another human being as property?
I see it this way. If I owned and treated them well provided them a place to live and fed them, they are provided clothing and treated when sick,then it would be morally correct.Are you a working man? If so the slaves would have been better off than you because,you are a slave to your work and you have to supply your own food, clothing,home and pay a doctor to help you with your sickness. Some owners did not treat their slaves well and they will pay for that!
Ok so you gave some specifics that declared what morally correct slavery would be. I'm glad you said it that way.
Because it shows how your moral compass does not agree with Gods. Please review the bibles rules for slavery (such as you can beat them all you want as long as they don't die in 3 days).
Once again you are wrong,the scriptures are giving an example "Whosever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to DEATH. "When a man strikes a slave, and the slave dies,the owner shall be punished and, that would be by Death. If the slave survives, the owner is not to be punished, but is to restore the slave back to health.If slaves ran away from oppressive masters they were effectively free. The law gave slaves a day of rest each week. They were to be treated as hired workers. All slaves were to be freed after six years.Freed slaves were to be liberally supplied with grain,wine and livestock before they left slavery
I doubt that the owners of slaves would get by beating their slaves , because if they were beaten other slaves would have went to the judges and told them. The slave himself could have told them.The owners also knew of the harsh law that would be enforced on them if they beat their slaves.
Ah Believer, I can't help by have a large smile on my face as you answered that question exactly as I expected you too. You answered exactly as most Christians, meaning you either don't know what your book says, or you do and you purposely misled hoping the person you are talking too doesn't know it. Unfortunately for you, I do know it.
"All slaves were to be freed after six years". That is incorrect.
In regards to Hebrew Slaves:
Genesis 21:4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. 5) but if the servant declares, "I love my master and my wife & children & don't want to go free, 6) then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Genesis 21:7 If a man sells his daughter as a servant she is not to go free as male servants do.
Genesis 21:20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave w/a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21) but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
For all of slaves:
Leviticus 25: 44-46 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temp residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
So there are multiple rules of God that state slaves are to be kept for life and not let go. There is even a loophole to get a man to stay by getting him married and kids so he stays. A rule that states you can beat a slave as long as he doesn't die in a couple days you will not be punished.
The slavery you are wanting to talk about while ignoring the rest is found in Deuteronomy 15:12-15. This passage states anyone who sells themselves to you must be freed in the seventh year and given supplies to go with. This is not slavery as much as indentured servitude for someone who owes a debt to someone else. Basically they work off the debt and you let them go and call it good. So yes your side does exist, but that so does the actual slavery we all think about that happened in the US back in the 1800's.
I used Deuteronomy because Moses had just spent forty days on the Mount with GOD being taught the laws. God did not want slavery but because of sin, Moses and the people had to remain in the wilderness and were not allow to go into the promise land. Only two got to go and that was Joshua and Caleb.Slavery came about because of sin, they had to stay in the wilderness and it was hard to make a living so, GOD allowed the poor to work for the wealthy so they would not starve!It was probably very hard to make a living in the wilderness! GOD enacted several laws to prevent slavery in the first place!Many of those laws can be found in Deuteronomy.Slaves in our days or recent centuries are"chattel" slaves. They were tricked or forced to work. They received no pay and had no right to refuse work. Their humanity was owned by another person. It is very different from the old testament.They were kidnapped and that is a crime against God! AND YOU WERE WRONG AGAIN! SLAVES WERE TO BE RELEASED AT THE END OF THE SIXTH YEAR,You cant just read a few Scriptures here and there you have to study it all .You cannot understand without the spirit,even the apostles did not understand until the day of Pentecost When the spirit came down and rested upon them.
So did you read my post or your bible? Because if you had you would see I stated you are correct. There are slaves who are to be let free after 6 years. However, that is not all slaves and even those slaves could be tricked or quilted into staying pretty easily.
However to say that all slaves where were to be released at the end of the 6th year is just flat out incorrect according to the bible. This is not my opinion, or my interpretation. I literally quoted you book, chapter & verse where it specifically states those facts.
Now if you are saying that Genesis & Leviticus are incorrect and wrong, and only Deuteronomy rules matter than that is fine. But that sure puts a lot of other holes in your beliefs.
The law was handed down from generation to generation from ADAM on down. MOSES was educated by Pharaoh with an extensive education.There have many librarys found in the area where he was raised.He knew their laws on slavery.Both his parents were slaves.All the Israel people had knowledge of slavery.MOSES was to be leader of the Israelites so he learned of the law that had been given to Adam generations ago and they may have been incorrectly written or Moses may have put in rules pertaining to Egyptian laws on slavery. After all he was the lawgiver! MOSES WROTE-GENESIS-EXODUS- LEVITCUS-NUMBERS AND DEUTERONOMY. GOD gave MOSES the law in the Book of DEUTERONOMY. No matter how things are explained to you are always going to say "no that's not right", but I know, without a doubt there is a GOD. That is who you should be looking to find, and not things that have already happened .GOD said "Try me and see if IM not GOOD" JESUS came to save your soul! That's what the BIBLE is all about from beginning to the end.
So the only laws that count are the laws from Deuteronomy? Is that what you are saying Believe?
I am saying that I have read other scripture that have been found after the bible was written. There have many written on stone that were in the ground and some in caves!Since Moses wrote the first five BOOKS he would have been contradicting himself!The scroll, were not in good shape when found by that little shepherd boy. They may not have been interpreted correctly. GOD was wanting to get his word out to all men!HE is perfect but we are not! Humans make mistakes! Slavery was not condoned by GOD and you can find that through the entire bible!
So allowing slavery and specifically having rules setup on how to treat your slaves is not "condoning" it? So than we at least say he wasn't condemning it because he never once said "thou shalt not own another human as property".
Forgive me, your last post was a little confusing so I just want to clarify so I don't misunderstand you. Are you saying that the bible is correct, but we only know that because of the scroll the boy found because it matches? Or are you saying the scroll contradicts what was earlier written in stone? Honestly your post was just a bit confusing so just wanted to clarify.
Moses was taught by Pharaoh! HE was a son of the Hebrew who were GOD,S people! Moses freed them! God parted the RED SEA and they walked across on dry ground.He then began to study the laws GOD gave ADAM!Those laws were handed down for generations and those laws may have been altered or added to before Moses got to them.Moses could have used part of laws used in Egypt. The boy who discovered the scrolls, is what the bible is based on and they were not in great condition.But not in bad condition either. There may have been problems there but, I am sure MOSES did not contradict himself.----- I have read other books of writing of GOD and they were found after the BIBLE was written !Why don't you read some on Christian Archaeological Discoveries. It is very interesting!---Sorry I confused you!
Roy Moore is a good example of why we need separation of church and state. Tax churches.
Not a problem Believer, thank you for clarifying.
You say that Moses studied the laws of God and maybe he got some confused. But in Exodus God spoke the laws to Moses himself. So I'm not sure how he could get confused with God telling him the laws directly.
I mean I have no doubt after being raised Egyptian that he did some studying when he was banished to understand where he came from. But the laws he throws down in Exodus are direct from God himself from Mount Sinai.
YES they were! If you read all of the BOOKS of MOSES you will find that when MOSES came down from the Mount only after he was gone forty days they were already worshipping a Golden Calf. IN anger he thru the commandments down and broke them, but GOD had allowed Aaron his brother and some of the Levites who were of the royal priesthood to go with him the first time. I am sure they began to teach what they had heard on the mount although the commandments of stones were broken by MOSES. The second time he went only MOSES and Aaron were the only ones that GOD allowed to go. Lots of time had past! You will have to read the scriptures to find why I know that, The second time GOD gave instruction on how to build the Tabernacle. He did not give him the commandments at that time. So MOSES came down and they built the Tabernacle and that probably took a long time,I think MOSES was up the mount again a third time .The last time he went he was then given the TEN COMMANDMENTS and although Aaron was allowed to come up, he could not go all the way because he had sinned,you will also have to read about that. There is a long span of time there, it was not one thing right after another.Moses began to write all of these things down and at that time he wrote the ten commandments that was given of GOD and the writings were passed around to the Priest and that is in his last BOOK. The Book of Deuteronomy chapter31:24----When a man bought a female slave it was for him to take as wife or his son to take as wife. If the son did not want her she was to become a sister and daughter, which would be like adoption today. When the owner gave a male slave a wife it would be like giving his own daughter and grandchildren away to a slave that had nothing but a herd of animals some wheat and wine, he would not have been able to support them,GOD knew that! -----IF a man lay in wait to hurt someone it was SIN! If a man in anger beats someone he was still in sin . IF the man he beat died then he was to die.
Because all firstborn are mine. On the day that I slew all the first-born in the land of Egypt, I consecrated unto myself.
So because god created those 1st born he can kill them for whatever? Huh, good to know.
So Gods words can be confused by man? So Moses had them wrong in other books but they are accurate in the last one?
. I did not say that!The bible is confusing even to Christians at times. IT is not written has things occurred and there was probably for a reason for that. I have fought to understand for years what I know. The Bible says that we began to be fed the milk of the word. Then when ready he will begin to feed the meat of the word as we are able to bear. NO, and I guess I did not word it right for you, all the BOOKs were given to us to learn by!I said The first Commandments GOD gave were broken. The Last Commandments were given for the ARK of the covenant That is when Moses began to write the BOOKS. It don't change what was written but help us to understand how much HE hated sin, It causes us to be separated from him and he does not like that. He is a jealousy GOD and wants us to love him with all our hearts----GOD does not see death as we do but he does sorrow when we die. He sorrowed the night before he died and it was said HE cried blood mingled with tears. Which is a sign of a broken heart! Don't let that BROKEN HEART BE FOR YOU !
Funny you say God is a jealous God yet Paul condemns jealousy as a sin in Galatians 5:19-20. Once again God does not practice what he preaches.
It's funny how God created something he knew he wouldn't like. He knew he'd have to kill everything on Earth in a flood. Yet after that he admitted it was a mistake and he would never do it again.
He knew he'd have to level Sodom and Gamora, he knew he'd have to commit suicide to save souls yet he didn't do that for thousands of years. He knew stoning would be seen as immoral in 2017 yet he put it in his laws. He knew woman would be seen as equals in 2017, yet he treated them far below equal in his laws.
I think that what you are saying is very wrong and if you are teaching these thing to your children and your wife there will much suffering in your life here on earth and, possible an early death! You are helping to destroy others by what you are saying! You are bringing sickness and sin upon your life! Scriptures say a person like you are heaping coals on your own head. I would be very leery of my life because you have angered GOD! I would not even be able to sleep at night!,I would fear for my children sake, my job, because there is much sin in your life and you must listen to what I say,I feel you have a lot of anger in you. You need to let it go and become a new creature in CHRIST
So you are going to pascal's wager now?
And it's exactly what I'm teaching my family, that their lives are their own lives. This is the only life we know 100% for sure we have and you need to make the most of it.
I actually sleep very well at night. I have a gorgeous wife, great children, fantastic job and am actually very happy. I'm not angry at all, especially not now that MU basketball is looking better.
It's funny that you say this should all be bad because of my thoughts and teaching, yet none of that is happening. So either there isn't a God and I'm just living my life like everyone else, only without the stress of trying to be perfect for some mythical being. Or there is a God and he either doesn't do things the way you think, or he's just being lazy in regards to me lol.
I don't consider myself to be brave person but I have zero fear of a nonexistent hell, devil or god. No one can scare me into becoming a believer. Tax churches.
GODLY jealousy is totally different than human jealousy!The language is employed to illustrate the emotions of the divine mind.The same causes operating upon the human mind would produce what we call anger,jealousy,repentance,grief, etc;and therefore when these emotions are ascribed to the mind of GOD,this language is used because such emotions can be represented to us by no other.