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A relationship with ChristPosted Thursday, October 1, 2009, at 11:08 AM
I was raised in a Christian household, but I've come to realize that there are a lot of things Christians hold to be important that I just don't understand.
It was at around the age of 12 that I first felt my exuberant acceptance of religion beginning to fade away. At 17, I finally mustered the courage to inform my parents that I did not believe -- or disbelieve -- the teachings of the church to which they belonged. It was at about that time that I ceased any attendance of religious services, and relative disinterest in religion soon followed. But by 21, I had declared my minor at Western Illinois University to be in the field of religious studies, and found those classes to be far more enjoyable than my time in church. Maybe it's just because no one expected anything out of me besides the occasional research paper. Now, at 25, I find the study of religion, and specifically the study of believers, endlessly fascinating. So, while I have a good base of knowledge regarding Christianity, a question I have been unable to answer has been raised in my mind by a comment from a caller to a talk radio station: What does it mean to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? And that question has brought more. As with the first question, I hoped those who post on this Web site might be able to help me better understand the following: How do believers go about forming that relationship? How do they feel that Christ is there, having a relationship back with them? Beyond what comes with just being an observant Christian, how does having a personal relationship with Christ impact their daily lives? Why is this relationship so important to so many, rather than focusing on simply living by Christ's code as set in the New Testament? What is the added benefit of this relationship? And I guess the big question is: How many Christians believe in the importance of this relationship? Furthermore, how many adherents to other religious beliefs -- Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other -- consider a similar relationship with a prominent religious figure to be extremely important? Even though I don't consider myself a Christian, I'd like to better understand the mindset of those who do, and would appreciate any light readers could shed on this topic. I'm saying "apples" in a complicated way. What do you think (with apologies to John Q.)? Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
A Complicated Way of Saying 'Apples'  - Archives - Blog RSS feed ![[Feed icon]](http://www.marshallnews.com/images/icons/feed-icon-14x14.png){kind=icon} - Comments RSS feed - Login It was a beautiful summer day, and I was relaxing with my friends. One of them, Brian, was talking, and, as happens to me sometimes, my mind began to drift -- a bad habit, I know. When I snapped back to the moment at hand, I asked Brian what he had said. As he commonly does, he downplayed the importance of his statements, and when pressed, he merely said, "It was just a complicated way of saying 'apples.'"
And so, the smart-aleck that I often seem to be, I said, simply, "Apples."
The following silence was comfortable, but nowhere near as pleasant as being present for and party to a discussion, no matter how trivial, with two of my best friends.
So, while sometimes, all of my speech is merely a complicated way of saying "apples," I have come to enjoy those roundabout things that are perhaps unnecessary, because sometimes, merely saying "apples" isn't enough.
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Gee, Geoff. Why didn't you just run around the courthouse naked with a bullseye painted on your butt if you were looking to take shots from people? You've really set yourself up here:)
My response to most--if not all--of your questions can be summed up this way:
First and foremost, a Christian should believe in the existence and the presence of the Trinity: The Father (God), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, depending on translation and denomination). Some call this the Triune God.
One must also believe in the omnipotence of God; the Bible says He knew every hair on your head before you were even conceived. And one must accept that Jesus Christ was the flesh and blood Son of God Himself--God in human form, if you will.
This is a critical point. Many people have trouble putting faith in a foggy mist or apparition. But most of us can (and have countless times) put our faith in another human.
To believe these things, then, is to also believe and accept that Jesus--by His Father's will--died on a cross for ALL sins of ALL people (...for the wages of sin is death. But he who believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life.) How would you endear yourself with your relationship to, say, a sibling if they pushed you from in front of the bus, only to be crushed themselves? That is the significance and the importance of that relationship with Jesus.
You've undoubtedly encountered the term "saved" in your religious studies. That is the formation of the relationship with Christ. It is the acceptance that He lived a real life and died a very real death for you, so that your sins may be forgiven, and so that you may have everlasting life in Heaven rather than an eternity of punishment (death) in Hell. Hence, you are "saved".
And one must accept that, though *we* lost Christ in the flesh, God left in His place the Holy Spirit so that we may feel His presence in our hearts and lives always.
The problem with *not* having this relationship and just simply trying to live by the code is, "whose code?" Unfortunately, the translation of the Bible remains largely disputed and many denominations have "tailored" the words to suit church by-laws, constitutions, or flat lazy personal preference. And if you lined up a representative from every denomination and asked the singular question "who has it right", they'd all raise their hands.
But this, again, is significant and critical in my opinion. A *personal* relationship with Jesus Christ sees beyond the confines of by-law and constitution. It sees passed translation arguments and denominational disagreements. A personal relationship is as much a part of you as your own beating heart. Every cardiac specialist in the world can tell you about every part of your heart muscle. Only YOU know how it really feels to you.
If you haven't seen it, I strongly recommend Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ". It is a very surreal interpretation of the significance of that relationship with Jesus Christ.
In my experience, the more one feels compelled to announce their Christianity to you, the more likely they are still trying to convince themselves. If that relationship is real, it should require few words to make it evident.
Let me know what time you want to start jogging around the square this weekend. I'll bring the brushes, you bring the paint:) Let's at least hope for a third or we are going to look ridiculous...
Well put Smokin' Cheetah
The only problem I have with the term "personal" is it makes it appear that we have Christ locked up in our shirt pocket to call on when we need him. And that he is ours and ours alone.
Though we do need to have a personal relationship with him - just as we would need to have a "personal" relationship with anyone - he is still the savior of the world - he's for everyone.
John the Baptizer said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!"
"The world" just happens to include you and me - and Geoff for that matter.
We should get together sometime, Cheetah - who knows what might become of it. At the very least we could share our concerns about structured / organized religion - which I sense you are not all that fond of.
cr
cr,
Perhaps I put too much emphasis on the word *personal* in this vernacular. Your concerns are not at all what I intended (please see the fifth paragraph down on my original post). Geoff's questions led me in the direction of how an individual finds, builds, and maintains that relationship, and what it means to have that relationship.
I do consider that a personal matter. Though we are commissioned to spread the Gospel and to congregate with others in His name, I worry that far too many Christian's only feel or show their relationship with Christ in that forum; guided soley by the opinions or feelings of others.
I consider the issue of calling on Him only when we need Him to be a very separate issue...just my humble opinion. But it is an issue I happen to agree with you on:)
I think Geoff has posed some very good questions. The irony is, I am the least qualified to answer them. Mine are just one fellow's thoughts.
Get together? Hmmm. I'm afraid you'd be greatly disappointed, cr. For everything I think I know or thought I knew, for all I've learned and been taught, for all that I believe or believed, when the clock strikes midnight and the world has gone to bed...I remain full of Questions. And it is astounding the irreparable damage that can be done by those who think they know the answers, ya know? But maybe you could throw a prayer my way anyhow, if you please:)
One more quick thought:
I've met you in passing, Geoff. The vibe I get is that you are a genuinely good guy. I hope you truly find answers to your questions. It is a worthy pursuit...
Geoff - human beings have forever had to 'personify to identify'... although certainly not all have personified an ultimate deity. I never 'got' the Triune God thing - if there was God the FATHER, why wasn't there a God the MOTHER, and how could Jesus ever be greater than God... didn't make sense then, and still doesn't.
"The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious and devout souls are everywhere of one religion; and when death hath taken off the mask, they will know one another though the divers liveries they wear here makes them strangers." William Penn, 1693
Golly (euphemism) Geoff you have started a blog topic that could run for Eternity. Politics, and religion, ever discussed, never agreed.
I also was raised in a Christian household, studying the catechism, and jumping through a few other hoops prior to becoming a member of a rural Presbyterian church at age twelve. We moved back to Marshall. Our family church going ceased then. My brother, and I were sent off to Sunday school, I don't even remember which one now. It was a half hearted attempt by my mother. We keyed on the low key direction, and instead just hung out until Sunday school was over, and went back home.
No more church for me since, except a visit to a church at a couple of times in my life, more to satisfy other's needs than any personal need.
When I was in my late teens, and early twenties, I read the Bible, thought, read books on Christianity, thought, read parts of the Torah, thought,read parts of the Qur'an, thought, and so on. At no point did I feel a call from Christ, nor any other diety. My quest was driven by curiosity. Curiosity as to the nature of belief, curiosity as to why others enjoyed, and seemed to need it so much. At no time did I feel anything necessary was missing from my life, nor do I now.
I am happy, I am glad that I have had the opportunity of life on this earth. That is all that in a rational sense I can be certain exists. I am contented. If I expected, or believed there to be any thing more it would have to be from blind faith. I don't have it, I don't miss it.
Understand I am not avowing that there is no God, nor that what my finite mind believes is necessarily true. That would be the height of vanity. However, I give no more credence to any other human than I do myself, for the same reasons. I respect other's beliefs, and expect equal respect for my lack of belief. I am nearly sixty nine years old, and I think that there will not be much change in my credo in my remaining relatively few years.
My point in laying all this out is that you seem to be on a path that parallels my own when in my youth. Perhaps you will become resolved as I have, perhaps not. The only thing I can say for certain that each human is different, and there are no two that have the same "personal relationship with Jesus". So unless you wish to wander through your days with a lantern, on a quest more difficult than that of Diogenes you should let go your questions for others as to what is a personal relationship with Jesus. No one can give you that answer with certainty young man. Further your brain, your genes and the influences of your environment on them, will take you to where you go. I hope that it is a place that you will enjoy, and one that comforts you.
I have only one other suggestion. Love as many people as you can, just as you would want to be loved. I have found that universal instruction to be a wonderful compass on the road of life.
--
Geoff,
I happened upon this publication quite by accident a couple of weeks ago. It is entitled "The Majesty of Calmness", by William George Jordan.
cr, Nanadot, and Oklahoma: I invite you to give this a read as well.
Of particular interest to me is Chapter VII: The Royal Road to Happiness.
http://manybooks.net/titles/jordanwietex...
I'd be interested in knowing what all of you think...
SC -
Not at all concerned about your explanation or answer to Geoff's questions. You did a great job.
I was just stating that I think we Christians sometimes put too much emphasis on the personal aspect of our beliefs - which - at times - takes the "public" aspect of our beliefs out of the equation. We live our "Christian" lives inside the comfort and confines of the church. And we cry that the church is declining in America.
We need to live our beliefs wherever we are - in the marketplace, at work, at the park, in a tree stand or on the creek bank. Christianity is not a personal thing - though any number of other religions may focus on that aspect.
Sounds like you've been - as have many - hurt by the church or its representatives. Sorry bout that. Know that you are not alone. But that isn't a reflection on Christ - just a sure fire proof that all are human - even those who say they speak for him.
But then again, our faith should be in Christ instead of preachers and churches.
Again - You did a great job answering Geoff's questions. Better than I could have done. Better than many I expect.
cr
I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic, in a house where there was more than a scintilla of bitterness about organized religion, mostly courtesy of my dad, who was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The crux (pun intended) of my parental instruction (such as it was) in matters of ethical and moral behavior could probably be fairly described as Fundamentalist Humanism. Oh, and Fundamentalist Caninism (we had a lot of dogs.) That said, I believe we were taught to be obedient of the major aphorisms of Christianity, though it was not in the name of Christianity.
I don't have a relationship to Christ or Jesus or whatever the preferred nomenclature might be because I don't believe in Christ (nor do I disbelieve, however.) But God? Well, maybe... I guess "God" to me is the amalgamation of everything I don't know or understand, or that is simply larger than me and my physical body. God is all of the questions I have that will never be answered, and all of the feelings (good and bad, what is one without the other?) I am blessed to feel, and all of the beauty in the universe that can, and does, break my heart when I'm open enough to let it. God is everything beyond what I can touch and understand. God is all of the intangibles put together. Mostly, for me, God is love.
So, for me, a personal relationship with God is inescapable because God is everywhere I look and everything I touch every single day. What I haven't figured out yet is if God is all of the bad stuff, too.
SC
Hopefully I wasn't one of those who inflicted that irreperable damage ---- All I know is that God loves you. Or why would he put his son on the cross when he could have put any of us there?
And yes - I will continue to pray for you - or "throw a prayer your way" as you put it.
cr
shinola - there is the quantum physics/Carl Jung/noetic view that Universal Consciousness IS and expresses itself as it will to experience the experience... Check out Bruce Lipton's The Biology of Belief, Perk's The molecules of emotion, or the new Dan Brown book, 'the last symbol'... our perceptions ARE our realities... George Herbert Meade once wrote, "if we THINK a thing is real, then it BECOMES real in its consequences" ...
My best advice is simply read the bible. This is the real deal. It tells you exactly what God did for you (sending his son to the cross for us) and that if you believe in Jesus and the price he paid for us, you will have eternal life. "No one comes to the Father, except by me" means believing in Jesus and the sacrifice of His life.
Sometimes the bible is hard to understand, so I have a couple of translations. NIV, KJV and The Message. My Message is a Message/KJV parallel. Both translations are on the same page, where you can directly compare, and get a much better understanding.
I also started going to a local church where I feel welcome, and enjoy the learning. Adult Sunday school is a good learning experience. It is led by someone, but everyone can comment on what things mean to them. Sometimes it helps to hear what others think about the scriptures, just to get another perspective. This is where I find many things that relate to everyday life.
Another resource I have found very helpful is the book Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. It is a 40-day spiritual journey where you are walked through becoming a christian and what that means.
I know not everyone will agree with me, but this is what has given me a better understanding, not only about Christianity itself, but what that can and does mean in my life.
Your life will never be the same, forever changed!
www.worldrevivalchurch.org
Located in Kansas City
When you have questions, go the the "Book of instructions". A personal relationship with Jesus is meaningful to me. I begin my day with Him and I end it with Him. He is a great comfort to me, and no, not a crutch. I love Him. Prayers will go up tonight that you will have some of your questions answered. Open your heart and not just your mind and you will have a small understanding of what it is about. It is different things to different people, but to me it is LIFE!
Hey Geoff
"Bible believing, New Testament Churches" are everywhere these days. Problem is, the teachings vary from place to place and from denomination to denomination - and, sadly, many of them are more interested in advancing their own cause than showing the way to - and the ways of - the Kingdom of God, which really was what Jesus was all about.
I say visit a few local churches, find one that is helpful and where you feel comfortable and welcome, and see what might happen.
The worst that might happen is that you leave there with no answers. Then again, you may find answers to your questions - and so much more.
cr
Geoff --
First of all let me congratulate you. The fact that you are seeking answers to these questions tells me that God is working in you. Someone who isn't capable of believing will not ask questions about something that couldn't possibly exist.
I believe that you have received some very factual, complex answers to your questions, but I think something is missing; the simplicity of a relationship with Christ through salvation.
Salvation is a gift that God extends to everyone. One that is freely given, not by merit, but out of love and compassion for us; His creation and children. The only stipulation that comes with this gift is that you accept it. This gift cannot be forced on you.
Once you have accepted His gift you begin your relationship with Him. A relationship with Christ is not unlike a relationship with a close friend or family member. If you keep in touch with God, talk to Him, learn about Him, your relationship will be close. If you get so wrapped up in other things around you that you don't spend time with Him(you begin to pull away) that relationship becomes distant. However it is never Christ that moves away; only you. He remains where you left Him anxiously waiting your return and He will always take you back.
The main difference between a relationship with God and others, is that people will let you down, they will die, they will make mistakes; Christ does not. Christ is my Father. Anytime I need comforted I turn to Him and He gives me peace. Anytime I am joyful, I turn to Him and He celebrates with me. He is the one thing in my life that I can depend on with no exception. Is my life easy, perfect, free from worries? No -- I make stupid mistakes all the time. I have gotten myself into situations that are very difficult, and will take years to recover from. Unlike most people, God is forgiving and His love for me is unconditional, and no matter what I do in my life He is willing to clean the slate and accept me for who I was, who I am, and who I am going to be. This doesn't mean that He will fix everything, if anything, but what He does give me is a place to belong and the strength to face any hurdle.
For those that read this and don't believe, you say that you are happy with your life the way it is, without God -- I believe you. A blind person can be very happy, their world may be dark, but you don't miss what you don't have, right? But, there is not a blind person out there that if offered the gift of sight, with no obligation, wouldn't take it. Once they can see they would never go back to the darkness again. And that Geoff is what a relationship with God is.
Although fictional, a good book to read is "The Shack", it gives a great explanation of what a relationship with God should look and feel like. I hope you can have that some day, the sooner the better, there is no reason to live or face eternity in the dark.
Geoff, it is OK to not believe in a supernatural being looking over your every action and thought, because no such being exists. Religion is man-made, and just an elaborate adult version of the tooth fairy or Santa Clause. And, it is OK to not believe, no matter what anybody tells you. We know that we humans have been around in our current form (not talking Lucy or ape-like, just like we are today) for over 100,000 years. And we are pressured by Christians to believe that after 98,000 years of no intervention, that god decided to intervene in the middle east. What about China and all the other more cultured areas of the planet. Are all the Chinese, Muslims, Buhdists, and all the other hundreds of non-christians going to burn in hell for eternity for just being born to parents who believe in another religion or who may not believe at all? Hogwash; it is all hogwash. 2,000 years ago they thought that sunamis and earthquakes were punishment from the gods for something they did wrong. Religion was born out of fear of the unknown by humans. So, enjoy your life knowing that you have only one to live, and don't squander it based on the dilutions of many around you. You don't have to be religious to have high moral standards; it is inate in all humans, born out of "do unto others as they would have you do unto them" (the golden rule). It is an insult to believe that the only reason we don't rape and pillage is because someone is looking over your shoulder at your every action and also knows your every thought.
Sorry about butchering The Golden Rule. Wikipedia: The ethic of reciprocity, more commonly known as the Golden Rule, is an ethical code that states one has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others. Reciprocity is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights, though it has its critics.[1] A key element of the golden rule is that a person attempting to live by this rule treats all people, not just members of his or her in-group, with consideration.
Heavy....Someone please tell me how God speaks to you. I can pray from now until forever, but I've never had Him "speak to me." So many people say that God spoke to them? Really? Or are they just imagining this?
from ND-" George Herbert Meade once wrote, "if we THINK a thing is real, then it BECOMES real in its consequences" ..."
I for one believe in God. I talk to him daily, he never speaks back, at least not in a sense that I can look at the sky and carry on a conversation with him, I think he responds to me in ways that I don't even realize sometimes. My sister and her family are very religious(brother-in-law is a preacher), but yet because I don't attend church I feel they look at me like I'm less of a christian. I'm not comfortable with most church atmosphere's, I've had too many expierences of overhearing the "good christians" critisize other church members of how they were dressed or what they were driving. I feel I have a good relationship with God, but I have never been "saved" by a church, am I still "saved"?
The relationship is something you feel. Really, I believe it is a different relationship/feeling for everyone, just like you have a different relationship with friend A than friend B. No two are the same. God "speaking" to you, I have heard it translated to a transformation of your thoughts. Kindof like the voice in your head, your concience, starts to change and speak up more when you begin a relationship with Christ.
A real turning point for me was about 6 months ago. I was struggling with some inner fears, just about all the what ifs in my life. I found myself one night in very restless sleep. Each time I woke I felt the fear coming over me and I began praying. Praying for help to overcome what was causing me such inner turmoil. Just before dawn, I woke with the strongest voice ringing in my ears saying "Fear not, for I am here with you". Geez, just typing that brings tears to my eyes. I know some could say this was a dream, but the voice was one I had never heard before, and the tone and strength in it makes me KNOW it was Christ and he was telling me to not worry or fear, and give it to him, let him carry my burden for me.
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
I also have read "The Shack" and even though it's fiction, it sheds a new light on the structure of the intended relationship With Christ. Picture Christ as the center of a mobile, and all the events of your life the things twisting, turning & bouncing around the edges. All the things moving need the center to support them & strengthen them. Without the center, the rest is nothing. This is what Christ wants to be in your life. The center. What gives your life support and balance.